EPTSC2 has come a long way since then. The game is understood by every pro gamer and what usually separates them now is not game knowledge but micro and decisiveness.
Improvements: Why we will never see a bonjwa. - Page 2
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NeThZOR
South Africa7387 Posts
SC2 has come a long way since then. The game is understood by every pro gamer and what usually separates them now is not game knowledge but micro and decisiveness. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
He's arguably as close as one could get to that title I would think. | ||
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ZombieFrog
United States87 Posts
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Friedobert
Germany38 Posts
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rotta
5595 Posts
On December 28 2014 03:48 Friedobert wrote: savior wasn't brood war's first Bonjwa, it was IloveOov. Please do elaborate. | ||
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Jathin
United States3505 Posts
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
On December 28 2014 02:51 Hadronsbecrazy wrote: Also sc2 will never have bonjwas because the game keeps changing because of patches. Dont think BW had a patch post 2005? Last balance patch was in 2001. All other patches since then were mostly bug fixes and performance tweaks afaik. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16005 Posts
If soO had won all his finals he would have been the most dominant bonjwa of all time. It's definitely not impossible for sc2 to have a bonjwa. | ||
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Erik.TheRed
United States1655 Posts
but I think most people would say having a one-handed tournament would be stupid and silly (albeit having some novelty at first) since it does not really create an environment where the game is evolving on a mental/strategic level. so instead of regressing to a frustrating UI, why not promote interesting and challenging improvements to the dynamics of gameplay/strategy? | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
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Neemi
Netherlands656 Posts
Now let's consider the number of games. I think Nada played the most games in his career at 730 games, a career that stretches about 9 years. MC has already played almost 2000 registered games in his career. At the peak of BW (~2009) the best players played about 160 games per year. Zest played 304 games in 2014. Life in his peak from July 2012 to March 2013 played 318 games. Mvp played 351 games in 2011, even winning 71% of them, similar to the Bonjwa's in BW. They all play twice as many games in the same time. I believe that part of the reason why the Bonjwa's seemed as dominant as they were, is that they had adequate time to prepare for each game, removing much variance from the equation. They were all extremely solid all-round players, but what set them apart was their ability to prepare well in best-of-sets against their opponents, or even just for PL games. No matter how bad Flash plays in general in other tournaments, he's never really had a bad PL record yet because he prepares well for those games, and even Jaedong carried Team 8 through Ace Matches. Stork also had the most success in PL, even when he didn't seem to be able to win games at all. Because of the sheer number of games, it's mostly about gamesense (Taeja, Mvp, Life, Zest) or insane mechanics (Innovation, soO) or micro (Maru, PartinG), skills that translate into an advantage in every game, that allow players to win more often and set themselves apart. But even they can't remain undefeated for an entire month with multiple high-profile matches, which is something that happened quite a few times back in BW. | ||
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Makro
France16890 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/473230-korea-2015-battle-for-the-empty-throne | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
MVP definitely was head and shoulders above everyone at the time. The funny part was that MVP like Flash dominated based on his strategic innovation, guile, and tactics rather than through exceptional mechanics (I mean he had very good mechanics, still not on par with other players at the time like MKP). I mean, MVP even dominated in matches against other Korean players with little to no preparation, let alone GSL type matches where he could straight dominate opponents when he had time to prepare for them. | ||
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rotta
5595 Posts
On December 28 2014 04:38 superstartran wrote: MVP definitely was head and shoulders above everyone at the time. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/final-edits/221896-the-elephant-in-the-room | ||
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Najda
United States3765 Posts
On December 28 2014 04:31 Neemi wrote: + Show Spoiler + What all Bonjwa's in BW shared was that at their peak form, they had a single year when they won over 70% of their games. Only Flash (2009-2011) and Jaedong (2008-2010) managed to do so multiple years. The reason they won was different, however. Boxer won through gamesense, Nada and Iloveoov overpowered people through mechanics/macro, Savior set up superior engagements and used better strategies, and Flash was the ultimate weapon. Interestingly enough, Savior had one of the lowest APM's, so it's not just mechanics that allowed people to dominate. Now let's consider the number of games. I think Nada played the most games in his career at 730 games, a career that stretches about 9 years. MC has already played almost 2000 registered games in his career. At the peak of BW (~2009) the best players played about 160 games per year. Zest played 304 games in 2014. Life in his peak from July 2012 to March 2013 played 318 games. Mvp played 351 games in 2011, even winning 71% of them, similar to the Bonjwa's in BW. They all play twice as many games in the same time. I believe that part of the reason why the Bonjwa's seemed as dominant as they were, is that they had adequate time to prepare for each game, removing much variance from the equation. They were all extremely solid all-round players, but what set them apart was their ability to prepare well in best-of-sets against their opponents, or even just for PL games. No matter how bad Flash plays in general in other tournaments, he's never really had a bad PL record yet because he prepares well for those games, and even Jaedong carried Team 8 through Ace Matches. Stork also had the most success in PL, even when he didn't seem to be able to win games at all. Because of the sheer number of games, it's mostly about gamesense (Taeja, Mvp, Life, Zest) or insane mechanics (Innovation, soO) or micro (Maru, PartinG), skills that translate into an advantage in every game, that allow players to win more often and set themselves apart. But even they can't remain undefeated for an entire month with multiple high-profile matches, which is something that happened quite a few times back in BW. Also, there was only really the OSL and MSL to watch, rather than having a ton of different tournaments and not every player in each tournament. There's just too much noise now for anyone to really stand out among the rest in the way the BW Bonjwas did. | ||
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esReveR
United States567 Posts
On December 28 2014 02:29 perspicaciousinnate wrote: + Show Spoiler + What do you guys think of this theory? Because Blizzard incorporated queuing into starcraft 2, APM has become much less important. (APM is still very important but just less so.) In starcraft 1, without queuing, a pro would hypothetically need 400 APM to attain a certain level of control. In contrast, in starcraft 2, with queuing, a pro would hypothetically need 300 APM to attain the same level of control. Since, there are more pros with 300 APM, it's less likely you'll get a bonjwa. On the other hand, the players would can get 400 APM are very few so bonjwa's are possible. Strategy and builds have become so much more important in starcraft 2. In theory, this sounds like a better game. Unfortunately, anyone can eventually figure out the counters to builds. Preparation has become that much important and this has leveled out the playing field a bit because it becomes a matter of how much time you put in. It relies less on latent ability. We see this in practice. Jaedong and Flash with their insane multitasking and APM were able to attain dominance for a long time. In starcraft 2, it's definitely helped them get into the top 20. But, no one will ever attain bonjwa status. Blizzard for the next patch or game, should think about either 2 things. It should get rid of queuing so that APM is more important. Or, it should add another component to the game play so that additional APM is required. People have already pointed out that queuing was in SC:BW, even though the action cap was lower. However, no one has pointed out that his APM portion of the theory is also flawed. The in-game time used to calculate APM is only 40 real seconds per in-game minute. An SC2 APM of 300 is equal to a SC:BW APM of 450, which was based on real time. The two main points of your "theory" are built on incorrect information. Why is this thread still open? Also, MVP's insane dominance throughout WOL should be considered bonjwa material for that time period. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On December 28 2014 04:42 rotta wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/final-edits/221896-the-elephant-in-the-room You can only play who is in front of you. Is it MVP's fault that at the time KesPA were being jackasses? Such a ridiculous argument. MVP played who was in front of him, and beat them. That's all that matters. It's like trying to argue in sports that so and so team or player played in a 'weak' era. You can only play who is available at the time and willing to play. Here's the facts, MVP dominated from 2010-2012 with a blip around Feb to July. Not a single other player has been able to replicate the same results in terms of domination. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
The final result is, that the apm is as important just put elsewhere. Though I would say Sc2 is to fast to actually be able to play out your apm and since it is harder to optimize your units then to simple work around the game engine ... you end up with less apm and more to do in Sc2. I can't wait till robo wrists will be handed out to pro players and I'll see attacks being orchestrated by queuing up small groups of units pre battle, so you can do even more things while the battle is going on and green and red lines everywhere before an engagement. Well that or people will realize Sc2 is way more awesome 1 speed below the max and won't need robo wrists for that. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16005 Posts
On December 28 2014 04:42 rotta wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/final-edits/221896-the-elephant-in-the-room right, because the kespa players dominate sc2 so hard now. Just look at code S almost every player there came with the kespa switch to sc2 ... oh wait... | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
On December 28 2014 05:14 Charoisaur wrote: right, because the kespa players dominate sc2 so hard now. Just look at code S almost every player there came with the kespa switch to sc2 ... oh wait... There will never be a dominating player in sc2 in the same way there was in BW for obvious reasons. | ||
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