|
On December 28 2014 05:02 superstartran wrote:You can only play who is in front of you. Is it MVP's fault that at the time KesPA were being jackasses? Such a ridiculous argument. MVP played who was in front of him, and beat them. That's all that matters. It's like trying to argue in sports that so and so team or player played in a 'weak' era. You can only play who is available at the time and willing to play. Here's the facts, MVP dominated from 2010-2012 with a blip around Feb to July. Not a single other player has been able to replicate the same results in terms of domination.
I don't think he dominated in 2010 nor 2012. His era was impressive, but the b-word shouldn't apply to WoL.
|
On December 28 2014 05:14 Charoisaur wrote:right, because the kespa players dominate sc2 so hard now. Just look at code S almost every player there came with the kespa switch to sc2 ... oh wait...
Yep, all the GSL finalists in HotS have been Kespa so far.
Let's just wait until the upcoming Ro16...
|
You can't have a consistently winning player in a consistently changing game. As soon as they stop balance patches, you'll see one player dominate for a long period of time. It's already happened several times. Innovation, was literally patched out of existence. Its got nothing to do with Brood War.
|
The real reason you will never see a bonjwa is that theres a shit ton of tournaments, and a balance patch every other sunday. Both preclude the capacity. How lucrative streaming is doesnt help matters either.
|
Strategy and builds have become so much more important in starcraft 2. In theory, this sounds like a better game.
But it does sound like a better game.
Why force players to have higher APM just for an artificial sense of superior [technical and not strategic] skill?
If no one can put in the time to prepare and practice and be smarter than other players, then does someone deserve to be a bonjwa just because they are better physically and have higher APM and multitasking? You could argue yes, but I'd prefer a focus on strategic than technical skill.
|
Who cares about bonjwa?
We've already seen the greatest banjo of our time.
|
On December 28 2014 05:27 rotta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2014 05:14 Charoisaur wrote:right, because the kespa players dominate sc2 so hard now. Just look at code S almost every player there came with the kespa switch to sc2 ... oh wait... Yep, all the GSL finalists in HotS have been Kespa so far. Let's just wait until the upcoming Ro16...
Blizzcon showed how dominant they are.
|
On December 28 2014 05:22 rotta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2014 05:02 superstartran wrote:You can only play who is in front of you. Is it MVP's fault that at the time KesPA were being jackasses? Such a ridiculous argument. MVP played who was in front of him, and beat them. That's all that matters. It's like trying to argue in sports that so and so team or player played in a 'weak' era. You can only play who is available at the time and willing to play. Here's the facts, MVP dominated from 2010-2012 with a blip around Feb to July. Not a single other player has been able to replicate the same results in terms of domination. I don't think he dominated in 2010 nor 2012. His era was impressive, but the b-word shouldn't apply to WoL.
No one has replicated his results from 2010-2012, not a single KesPA player. You can call it parity, you can call it whatever you want, but the facts are the facts. From 2010-2012 MVP was either the best player in the world or top 3 at the very least during his slump months.
You can't say the same for anyone else.
|
On December 28 2014 06:01 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +Strategy and builds have become so much more important in starcraft 2. In theory, this sounds like a better game. But it does sound like a better game. Why force players to have higher APM just for an artificial sense of superior [technical and not strategic] skill? If no one can put in the time to prepare and practice and be smarter than other players, then does someone deserve to be a bonjwa just because they are better physically and have higher APM and multitasking? You could argue yes, but I'd prefer a focus on strategic than technical skill.
Not necessearily a better game, but a better e-sport IMHO. In BW it was never really possible for a player to play a "perfect" game, you had to choose where to focus your attention on and that's also what allowed the skill of players to gradually rise and rise and the game never really felt mapped out. It took years for the players to perfect micro on vultures or mutas.
There was too much to do as well. Now you see Life forcing tons of mistakes and it's awesome and shows his mechanical and strategic dominance over other players. In BW it was kind of a norm (from different reasons too, but mechanics were a big aspect).
It was IMHO easier for players to define themselves through either macro or micro.
Those things paired together with how good defender's advantage and actually killing someone in BW were, made for awesome games where you couldn't just a-move to win and comeback potential was REALLY big.
I'm not saying SC2 is a bad game or that Brood War as a game was better, but it was a much more fierce competition and it's insane difficulty level allowed for the players to develop and improve themselves endlessly and also made playing from a BO disadvantage or loss much more possible. And that made it a better esport IMHO.
As for if there's an SC2 bonjwa:
I think Mvp, Life and INnoVation all have reached their peaks that made them insane and the reign they had over the scene at their respective times was bonjwa-esque. So it's surely possible to occur. But you'd have to remain on the top for longer than they did and I think we'll have to wait for LotV to come and more patches to happen to have that occur if ever.
|
soOjwa and Bbyongjwa will prove thou wrong
|
the B word has become cringe worthy :/
|
The games are just different, SC2 is much more arcadey. It can snowball very quick and if you fall behind, it's easy for the opponent to bully you with the bigger army and win. It's volatile to a point I don't think we'll ever see a BW-esque Bonjwa.
Flash, Savior and iloveoov weren't the fastest or the best mechanically. Their decision-making and strategical innovation made them great. I think those kinds of skill aren't rewarded as much in SC2. Had many new strategies have really come to light? How many famous comebacks through consistently better decisions? sOs is the only innovative player I've seen recently, although he's quite inconsistent.
Lower mechanical ceiling is another thing. Players like NaDa, Jaedong can't win through pure mechanics like they could in BW. Jaedong's Muta micro won games alone. BoxeR (although more known for his innovations with strategies) pulled off incredible comebacks through great micro. In general SC2 units are less microable than BW.
|
On December 28 2014 05:27 rotta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2014 05:14 Charoisaur wrote:right, because the kespa players dominate sc2 so hard now. Just look at code S almost every player there came with the kespa switch to sc2 ... oh wait... Yep, all the GSL finalists in HotS have been Kespa so far. Let's just wait until the upcoming Ro16...
true but you cant selectively ignore the OSL which Maru won when on Prime because it was named differently. the OSL took place between two GSL's in hots.
|
United States23455 Posts
This thread is really necessary and unique guys!!!!!!!
|
On December 28 2014 06:08 Starecat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2014 05:27 rotta wrote:On December 28 2014 05:14 Charoisaur wrote:right, because the kespa players dominate sc2 so hard now. Just look at code S almost every player there came with the kespa switch to sc2 ... oh wait... Yep, all the GSL finalists in HotS have been Kespa so far. Let's just wait until the upcoming Ro16... Blizzcon showed how dominant they are.
Yes, western weekend tournaments don't seem to suit them.
On December 28 2014 06:49 Hadronsbecrazy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2014 05:27 rotta wrote:On December 28 2014 05:14 Charoisaur wrote:right, because the kespa players dominate sc2 so hard now. Just look at code S almost every player there came with the kespa switch to sc2 ... oh wait... Yep, all the GSL finalists in HotS have been Kespa so far. Let's just wait until the upcoming Ro16... true but you cant selectively ignore the OSL which Maru won when on Prime because it was named differently. the OSL took place between two GSL's in hots.
Fair enough, I didn't remember that one.
|
On December 28 2014 02:44 Big J wrote:
The thing with BW Bonjwas was that the competition was a farce in comparison. It's pretty easy to dominate if the professional player sample is so small. Discuss! (Should have made my own thread I guess. So much insight here!!!!!)
Is this a joke? Do you realize during BW's prime how many people were trying to even get "pro / semi pro " status? You realize how hard it was? The amount of people trying to be pro / that were pro and the difficulty in staying pro was a level of difficulty we cannot even begin to understand.
|
Russian Federation1612 Posts
Because  Bisu didn't become bonjwa in BW
|
On December 28 2014 07:15 Darkhorse wrote:
This thread is really necessary and unique guys!!!!!!!
It totally is. And I already feel like there are some horridly misinformed comparisons of SC1 to SC2. The OP makes the wrong assumption that SC2 isn't demanding enough from the players, which is a basic false-logic appeal to the 'skill ceiling' argument.
On December 28 2014 06:01 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +Strategy and builds have become so much more important in starcraft 2. In theory, this sounds like a better game. But it does sound like a better game. Why force players to have higher APM just for an artificial sense of superior [technical and not strategic] skill? If no one can put in the time to prepare and practice and be smarter than other players, then does someone deserve to be a bonjwa just because they are better physically and have higher APM and multitasking? You could argue yes, but I'd prefer a focus on strategic than technical skill.
What many people, including the above poster, fail to realize is that StarCraft: BroodWar professional gamers often had (but not always) an incredible grasp of strategy, positioning, economy management, and everything outside of pure dexterity skills. That being said, every top SC2 player in first-person has incredible mechanical skills, which is one of the elements that puts them above the rest of the stock of players.
|
On December 28 2014 07:31 GGzerG wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2014 02:44 Big J wrote:
The thing with BW Bonjwas was that the competition was a farce in comparison. It's pretty easy to dominate if the professional player sample is so small. Discuss! (Should have made my own thread I guess. So much insight here!!!!!) Is this a joke? Do you realize during BW's prime how many people were trying to even get "pro / semi pro " status? You realize how hard it was? The amount of people trying to be pro / that were pro and the difficulty in staying pro was a level of difficulty we cannot even begin to understand.
I thought he was joking.
Anyways, my only input is that I agree with many comparisons between BW and SC2.
I am pretty sure he was joking 
On December 28 2014 07:15 Darkhorse wrote:
This thread is really necessary and unique guys!!!!!!!
It sure is.
|
On December 28 2014 07:31 GGzerG wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2014 02:44 Big J wrote:
The thing with BW Bonjwas was that the competition was a farce in comparison. It's pretty easy to dominate if the professional player sample is so small. Discuss! (Should have made my own thread I guess. So much insight here!!!!!) Is this a joke? Do you realize during BW's prime how many people were trying to even get "pro / semi pro " status? You realize how hard it was? The amount of people trying to be pro / that were pro and the difficulty in staying pro was a level of difficulty we cannot even begin to understand.
It's a joke. The whole OP is bad. It takes an arbitrary difference between SC2 and SC1 (could have taken any other), does hardly any analysis on it (300APm vs 400APM... well in SC2 there are players with 400APM too...), to justify a difference in competition (no bonjwa). And that difference is called bad without a reasoning (some of the greatest sports never had bonjwas...)
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
