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What do you guys think of this theory?
Because Blizzard incorporated queuing into starcraft 2, APM has become much less important. (APM is still very important but just less so.)
In starcraft 1, without queuing, a pro would hypothetically need 400 APM to attain a certain level of control. In contrast, in starcraft 2, with queuing, a pro would hypothetically need 300 APM to attain the same level of control. Since, there are more pros with 300 APM, it's less likely you'll get a bonjwa. On the other hand, the players would can get 400 APM are very few so bonjwa's are possible.
Strategy and builds have become so much more important in starcraft 2. In theory, this sounds like a better game. Unfortunately, anyone can eventually figure out the counters to builds. Preparation has become that much important and this has leveled out the playing field a bit because it becomes a matter of how much time you put in. It relies less on latent ability.
We see this in practice. Jaedong and Flash with their insane multitasking and APM were able to attain dominance for a long time. In starcraft 2, it's definitely helped them get into the top 20. But, no one will ever attain bonjwa status.
Blizzard for the next patch or game, should think about either 2 things. It should get rid of queuing so that APM is more important. Or, it should add another component to the game play so that additional APM is required.
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you could use the queue in scbw. it's multi building selection that appeared in sc2.
FlaSh didn't dominate bw because of his mechanics.
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I think it's more on the balance of the maps and the three races.
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Too many bo wins, there is way more randomness in the game and the most important thing, the game isn't even complete
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There is more luck involved in sc2. Luck seems to be increasingly more important in new games such as the MOBA's and Hearthstone.
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On December 28 2014 02:31 sAsImre wrote:
you could use the queue in scbw. it's multi building selection that appeared in sc2.
FlaSh didn't dominate bw because of his mechanics.
This. Reading a game well, reacting accordingly to what you read and being able to plan strategical moves in advance/anticipate what your opponent is doing is what makes a true bonjwa.
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On December 28 2014 02:37 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2014 02:31 sAsImre wrote:
you could use the queue in scbw. it's multi building selection that appeared in sc2.
FlaSh didn't dominate bw because of his mechanics.
This. Reading a game well, reacting accordingly to what you read and being able to plan strategical moves in advance/anticipate what your opponent is doing is what makes a true bonjwa.
and now you insert the innovation interview where he says that he's better at sc2 because there is much less strategical finesse required. (his own words)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/418616-interview-with-stx_innovation#1
pretty cool itw from the robot anyway 
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The thing with BW Bonjwas was that the competition was a farce in comparison. It's pretty easy to dominate if the professional player sample is so small. Discuss! (Should have made my own thread I guess. So much insight here!!!!!)
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On December 28 2014 02:40 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2014 02:37 OtherWorld wrote:On December 28 2014 02:31 sAsImre wrote:
you could use the queue in scbw. it's multi building selection that appeared in sc2.
FlaSh didn't dominate bw because of his mechanics.
This. Reading a game well, reacting accordingly to what you read and being able to plan strategical moves in advance/anticipate what your opponent is doing is what makes a true bonjwa. and now you insert the innovation interview where he says that he's better at sc2 because there is much less strategical finesse required. (his own words) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/418616-interview-with-stx_innovation#1pretty cool itw from the robot anyway
no, he doesn't say that. he says he can use his mechanics because the game is faster, which can make up for his lack of finesse
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On December 28 2014 02:46 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2014 02:40 sAsImre wrote:On December 28 2014 02:37 OtherWorld wrote:On December 28 2014 02:31 sAsImre wrote:
you could use the queue in scbw. it's multi building selection that appeared in sc2.
FlaSh didn't dominate bw because of his mechanics.
This. Reading a game well, reacting accordingly to what you read and being able to plan strategical moves in advance/anticipate what your opponent is doing is what makes a true bonjwa. and now you insert the innovation interview where he says that he's better at sc2 because there is much less strategical finesse required. (his own words) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/418616-interview-with-stx_innovation#1pretty cool itw from the robot anyway no, he doesn't say that. he says he can use his mechanics because the game is faster, which can make up for his lack of finesse
he's saying that his mechanics allow him to make up for his lake of strategical finesse in sc2 since the game is faster. Is for you that doesn't implay sc2 requires less strategical finesse than bw...
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A lot of very skilled bw player did not have 400apm...
And as it has been said there were no hardcounters
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Flash and Jaedong weren't the best because they were the fastest palyers around. it was mechanics and tactical nous that got them their wins.
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Also sc2 will never have bonjwas because the game keeps changing because of patches. Dont think BW had a patch post 2005?
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On December 28 2014 02:49 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2014 02:46 Ej_ wrote:On December 28 2014 02:40 sAsImre wrote:On December 28 2014 02:37 OtherWorld wrote:On December 28 2014 02:31 sAsImre wrote:
you could use the queue in scbw. it's multi building selection that appeared in sc2.
FlaSh didn't dominate bw because of his mechanics.
This. Reading a game well, reacting accordingly to what you read and being able to plan strategical moves in advance/anticipate what your opponent is doing is what makes a true bonjwa. and now you insert the innovation interview where he says that he's better at sc2 because there is much less strategical finesse required. (his own words) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/418616-interview-with-stx_innovation#1pretty cool itw from the robot anyway no, he doesn't say that. he says he can use his mechanics because the game is faster, which can make up for his lack of finesse he's saying that his mechanics allow him to make up for his lake of strategical finesse in sc2 since the game is faster. Is for you that doesn't implay sc2 requires less strategical finesse than bw...
It implies you need less strategical finesse if you can make it up with being as mechanically good as INnoVation is. Which most people, even amongst top GSL performers, can't.
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It's probably way too early to talk about a SC2 bonjwa too. iirc Broodwar dates back to 1998, and the first bonjwa, saviOr, to 2005, which makes a 7 years gap. By these estimations the first SC2 bonjwa should arrive 7 years after LotV's release, provided LotV changes core mechanics of the game
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APM, a completely overrated concept that largely fails to explain how demanding/difficult something is.
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United States15275 Posts
On December 28 2014 02:31 sAsImre wrote:
you could use the queue in scbw. it's multi building selection that appeared in sc2.
FlaSh didn't dominate bw because of his mechanics.
Well, yes and no. Flash necessarily had top-tier mechanics to be a dominant player, but they were not the defining aspect of his gameplay. He wasn't even head and shoulders above the competition in how many clicks he could squash into a minute. Flash's APM was only in the low 300s and he was considered a somewhat "slow" player.
Anyway, the OP has a misinformed concept of mechanics so the point is moot.
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MVP wasn't a bonjwa?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YJZsMmkl.jpg)
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On December 28 2014 03:06 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2014 02:31 sAsImre wrote:
you could use the queue in scbw. it's multi building selection that appeared in sc2.
FlaSh didn't dominate bw because of his mechanics.
Well, yes and no. Flash necessarily had top-tier mechanics to be a dominant player, but they were not the defining aspect of his gameplay. He wasn't even head and shoulders above the competition in that aspect. Flash's APM was only in the low 300s and he was considered a somewhat "slow" player.
And apm-wise, he's still in the rather low end of the spectrum in SC2.
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On December 28 2014 03:08 H0i wrote:
MVP wasn't a bonjwa?
Nope.
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EPT
