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On December 30 2014 07:57 sibs wrote:
O god, the BW circlejerk is here.
SC2 and BW are different games deal with it.
Flash with all that APM and mechanics on BW has poor micro compared to other SC2 Terran's that never shined in BW, after over 1 year of playing SC2.
I've played more SC2 than BW. It's not necessarily a "BW circlejerk". It's more that the difference is that some SC2 defenders tend to become upset at the slightest criticism in regards to the major flaws of the game and are usually people who got into the StarCraft scene beginning with SC2, and don't know their history or necessarily what people are talking about.
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On December 28 2014 13:29 lichter wrote:
The desire for bonjwas is stupid. Why would you want one person to win everything? If anything the sport becomes more of a farce (see La Liga beforr Atletico last year) when it is dominated.
As usual threads like these are dumb.
Barcelona's dominance is one of the most incredible footballing feats. It made Atletico's win that spectacular, that's why you want Bonjwas. Just like Bisu dethroning Savior was incredible.
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On December 30 2014 09:51 Espers wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2014 13:29 lichter wrote:
The desire for bonjwas is stupid. Why would you want one person to win everything? If anything the sport becomes more of a farce (see La Liga beforr Atletico last year) when it is dominated.
As usual threads like these are dumb. lol you serious? La Liga's popularity grew masisvely with Barcelona's dominance, and made Atletico's win that much more spectacular. of course you want dominance.
It's about how the teams perform internationally, not on a national level what will bring attention. La Liga itself is boring as fuck to watch, i don't know what you are speaking about, the Atletico last year was the only thing to spice it up on many years of utter and complete dominance, where the matches themselves were pointless to watch.
Of course, dumb people will gather around the stars and loathe them, while people who actually care about the football itself and the experience of watching good football would just facepalm.
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On December 30 2014 09:16 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2014 07:57 sibs wrote:
O god, the BW circlejerk is here.
SC2 and BW are different games deal with it.
Flash with all that APM and mechanics on BW has poor micro compared to other SC2 Terran's that never shined in BW, after over 1 year of playing SC2. I've played more SC2 than BW. It's not necessarily a "BW circlejerk". It's more that the difference is that some SC2 defenders tend to become upset at the slightest criticism in regards to the major flaws of the game and are usually people who got into the StarCraft scene beginning with SC2, and don't know their history or necessarily what people are talking about.
No, it's pretty much a circlejerk, there's no reason to bring successful SC2 pros BW score into the discussion, Bisu has only 55% Winrate in SC2 losing to players such as Kysarr this doesn't mean anything, you can see the hyperbole on your replies:
In BW the skill ceiling and skill progression was so ridiculous that the rank 1 player could consistently beat the ranks 2-9 80% of the time. In SC2 it's more like anyone in the top 200 beat anyone in the top 200 any day.
First the BW part, Flash only had a 71% winrate, so no he couldn't have 80% win rate vs ranks 2-9, if you mean for a time period, then you could say the same about SC2 , Nestea has won a GSL losing 0 games iirc, lots of players probably have 70%+ winrate for time periods on SC2 , even long ones
(Under these filters, Mvp is 249–104 (70.54%) in games and 118–36 (76.62%) in matches.)
The SC2 part, just no, having a player ranked 150-200th beat any top player is a major major upset, upsets happened in BW as well, I recall boxer losing to some peruvian on wcg?
However I do agree it's harder to have an as high winrate on SC2 as it is on BW, but the reason isn't just because the game is more volatile and more accessible, heres some other reasons:
1) You have patches, and expansions being released still.
2) There's way more tournaments and games.
3) It's actually more competitive! As in you have more people playing.
By the way the game being more accessible is a great thing IMO, seeing BW armies cross each other and no player being able to send a simple attack command was hilariously sad.
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On December 30 2014 09:53 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2014 09:51 Espers wrote:On December 28 2014 13:29 lichter wrote:
The desire for bonjwas is stupid. Why would you want one person to win everything? If anything the sport becomes more of a farce (see La Liga beforr Atletico last year) when it is dominated.
As usual threads like these are dumb. lol you serious? La Liga's popularity grew masisvely with Barcelona's dominance, and made Atletico's win that much more spectacular. of course you want dominance. It's about how the teams perform internationally, not on a national level what will bring attention. La Liga itself is boring as fuck to watch, i don't know what you are speaking about, the Atletico last year was the only thing to spice it up on many years of utter and complete dominance, where the matches themselves were pointless to watch. Of course, dumb people will gather around the stars and loathe them, while people who actually care about the football itself and the experience of watching good football would just facepalm.
La Liga is an extreme case, over 5 years of pure dominance. Still, I enjoyed Barcelona's reign up to a point.
I loved Savior's bonjwa times in BW, it was incredible.
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On December 30 2014 09:15 SuperFanBoy wrote:I think he definitely was a bonjwa. He dominated Wings of liberty. What was it like 4 GSL titles and 6 or 7 finals? I mean if thats not Bonjwa then what is?
Bonjwa is not about cumulative titles, it's more about doing them back-to-back-to-back and that aura of invincibility. Sure MVP was very successful and innovative throughout his career but he didn't dominate an extended period of time. There was a lot of GSL titles to go around (2011 had one every few months). Even then he couldn't string them together and even went to code A for a bit. The other big mark against MVP was that he never did much for his team in GSTL. He was never unstoppable in the same way Flash/Savior were in their prime in both proleague and starleagues.
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On December 30 2014 10:44 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2014 09:15 SuperFanBoy wrote:On December 28 2014 03:08 H0i wrote:MVP wasn't a bonjwa? ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YJZsMmkl.jpg) I think he definitely was a bonjwa. He dominated Wings of liberty. What was it like 4 GSL titles and 6 or 7 finals? I mean if thats not Bonjwa then what is? Bonjwa is not about cumulative titles, it's more about doing them back-to-back-to-back and that aura of invincibility. Sure MVP was very successful and innovative throughout his career but he didn't dominate an extended period of time. There was a lot of GSL titles to go around (2011 had one every few months). Even then he couldn't string them together and even went to code A for a bit. The other big mark against MVP was that he never did much for his team in GSTL. He was never unstoppable in the same way Flash/Savior were in their prime in both proleague and starleagues.
Flash won the same amount of games with the same win % as MVP, he just played less games per year.
MVP also maintained a high win percentage in a swingier game, making his high winrate more impressive than Flash's.
Can we just accept that bonjwa is a BW term and it has no place in a different tourney setup.
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On December 30 2014 12:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2014 10:44 Scarecrow wrote:On December 30 2014 09:15 SuperFanBoy wrote:On December 28 2014 03:08 H0i wrote:MVP wasn't a bonjwa? I think he definitely was a bonjwa. He dominated Wings of liberty. What was it like 4 GSL titles and 6 or 7 finals? I mean if thats not Bonjwa then what is? Bonjwa is not about cumulative titles, it's more about doing them back-to-back-to-back and that aura of invincibility. Sure MVP was very successful and innovative throughout his career but he didn't dominate an extended period of time. There was a lot of GSL titles to go around (2011 had one every few months). Even then he couldn't string them together and even went to code A for a bit. The other big mark against MVP was that he never did much for his team in GSTL. He was never unstoppable in the same way Flash/Savior were in their prime in both proleague and starleagues. Flash won the same amount of games with the same win % as MVP, he just played less games per year.
Wrong on both counts. Flash played more games per year during his prime than MVP. He was basically dominating 3 simultaneous leagues.
Flash went about 78% over a 17 month period (186-52).
MVP went 66% over fewer games (150-77) from January 2011 -> June 2012 (an 18 month period that includes almost all his tourney wins)
This is where all the nauseating Flash hype comes from. Imagine trying to win a BoX vs a guy who's been consistently winning about 4 in 5 games vs top tier progamers. He had a 19 game win streak vs zerg and a 17 win one vs Protoss and holds the ELO records for XvsZ, XvsP and XvsT. It was the equivalent of S2SL and GSL running at the same time and a player making the finals of both for 3 straight seasons.
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On December 30 2014 10:02 sibs wrote:
No, it's pretty much a circlejerk, there's no reason to bring successful SC2 pros BW score into the discussion, Bisu has only 55% Winrate in SC2 losing to players such as Kysarr this doesn't mean anything
I didn't bring that in, but it's relevant because it demonstrates SC2's comparatively lower skill ceiling, lack of mechanics leaving less ways for good players to distinguish themselves, and volatile nature (mechanics are all normalized due to be easy, so even at the highest level a good amount of games can go to build order losses and coin flips at a higher rate than its predecessor).
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Are you serious? MVP was nothing like Boxer, in fact MVP can't be compared to any other player because his reign of dominance was unparalleled. He dominated the biggest tournament (GSL) 4 times champion and 6 time finalist. When the hell did Boxer ever come close to doing something like that?
Flash's run seems to be longer than MVP's but MVP played more games and won more Titles than flash.. Lets not forget about MVP's first place WCS, IEM, MLG etc..etc..
MVP is the game genie terran because he was constantly changing the meta and inventing new strategies.. MVP is bonjwa and probably the most dominant bonjwa.
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On December 30 2014 12:39 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2014 10:44 Scarecrow wrote:On December 30 2014 09:15 SuperFanBoy wrote:On December 28 2014 03:08 H0i wrote:MVP wasn't a bonjwa? I think he definitely was a bonjwa. He dominated Wings of liberty. What was it like 4 GSL titles and 6 or 7 finals? I mean if thats not Bonjwa then what is? Bonjwa is not about cumulative titles, it's more about doing them back-to-back-to-back and that aura of invincibility. Sure MVP was very successful and innovative throughout his career but he didn't dominate an extended period of time. There was a lot of GSL titles to go around (2011 had one every few months). Even then he couldn't string them together and even went to code A for a bit. The other big mark against MVP was that he never did much for his team in GSTL. He was never unstoppable in the same way Flash/Savior were in their prime in both proleague and starleagues. Flash won the same amount of games with the same win % as MVP, he just played less games per year. MVP also maintained a high win percentage in a swingier game, making his high winrate more impressive than Flash's. Can we just accept that bonjwa is a BW term and it has no place in a different tourney setup.
MVP did well mostly when his race had absurd edges on the others. Flash dominated in an old game with pure technical ability.
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On December 30 2014 09:16 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2014 07:57 sibs wrote:
O god, the BW circlejerk is here.
SC2 and BW are different games deal with it.
Flash with all that APM and mechanics on BW has poor micro compared to other SC2 Terran's that never shined in BW, after over 1 year of playing SC2. I've played more SC2 than BW. It's not necessarily a "BW circlejerk". It's more that the difference is that some SC2 defenders tend to become upset at the slightest criticism in regards to the major flaws of the game and are usually people who got into the StarCraft scene beginning with SC2, and don't know their history or necessarily what people are talking about.
Yeah, what a sensitive way not to upset "SC2 defenders". Opening your post with your own subjective opinion about "major flaws".
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On December 30 2014 18:34 SuperFanBoy wrote:Are you serious? MVP was nothing like Boxer, in fact MVP can't be compared to any other player because his reign of dominance was unparalleled. He dominated the biggest tournament (GSL) 4 times champion and 6 time finalist. When the hell did Boxer ever come close to doing something like that? Flash's run seems to be longer than MVP's but MVP played more games and won more Titles than flash.. Lets not forget about MVP's first place WCS, IEM, MLG etc..etc.. MVP is the game genie terran because he was constantly changing the meta and inventing new strategies.. MVP is bonjwa and probably the most dominant bonjwa.
rofl living up to your id, sadly the numbers don't back up what you're saying. Flash won the equivalent of 6 GSL's, had a better winrate over more games in a more balanced, established scene.
As for boxer coming close. He won 3 Korean majors (7 finals) and back to back WCGs. Definitely comparable and had more back-to-back results. MVP was always a contender but failed to string championships together. He even did a stint in code A during his supposed prime. Boxer made 3 OSL finals in a row.
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lol comparing god to a woongjin terran haha
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Its also the fact that the bw pro scene was much more competitve during flash's reign than the SC2 scene was during MVP's. SC2 is a small niche game compared to what BW was.
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On December 30 2014 21:50 Elroi wrote:
Its also the fact that the bw pro scene was much more competitve during flash's reign than the SC2 scene was during MVP's. SC2 is a small niche game compared to what BW was.
no way man, do you know how many people in bronze play sc2? way bigger player pool, more countries playing, clearly more competitive game.
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I think we can agree this thread is over, there's no more relevant discussion (if there even was to begin with?) to be had. It's BW vs SC2 under a thin veil, and once again both sides lost.
I do like the MVP to Boxer analogy for accuracy of domination over a budding game, problem is I don't know if anyone can project how long SC2 will last.
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Bisutopia19295 Posts
Eveyone is arguing over Flash vs MVP. Does anyone actually address and discuss the issues the OP brings up? Let’s get this back on track.
On December 28 2014 02:29 perspicaciousinnate wrote:
What do you guys think of this theory?
Because Blizzard incorporated queuing into starcraft 2, APM has become much less important. (APM is still very important but just less so.)
In starcraft 1, without queuing, a pro would hypothetically need 400 APM to attain a certain level of control. In contrast, in starcraft 2, with queuing, a pro would hypothetically need 300 APM to attain the same level of control. Since, there are more pros with 300 APM, it's less likely you'll get a bonjwa. On the other hand, the players would can get 400 APM are very few so bonjwa's are possible.
Strategy and builds have become so much more important in starcraft 2. In theory, this sounds like a better game. Unfortunately, anyone can eventually figure out the counters to builds. Preparation has become that much important and this has leveled out the playing field a bit because it becomes a matter of how much time you put in. It relies less on latent ability.
We see this in practice. Jaedong and Flash with their insane multitasking and APM were able to attain dominance for a long time. In starcraft 2, it's definitely helped them get into the top 20. But, no one will ever attain bonjwa status.
Blizzard for the next patch or game, should think about either 2 things. It should get rid of queuing so that APM is more important. Or, it should add another component to the game play so that additional APM is required.
1. APM value in SC2 compared to SC1
APM in SC1 I use a quote from 2005:
The community has learned that spamming constantly is not necessary or even good. Dominant players such as Iloveoov & Savior[gm], arguably two the two best players ever, typically have around 250apm, compared to Nada’s 500 or so. So, yes, apm is important, but only when it goes towards significant actions. 100apm is low, and will affect your multitasking ability greatly. –KnickKnack
Furthermore, current Brood War player by.hero has the highest APM among active players and is not a clear cut #1.
Conclusion: “apm is important, but only when it goes towards significant actions.” This applies to both SC1 and SC2. Based on this opinion, I do not believe APM has become any more or less important in SC2 and do not believe the higher APM in either game dictates whether one can become a bonjwa.
2. Strategy and builds have become so much more important in starcraft 2.
Obviously this is an opinion by the OP and I do not share this same thought. I believe that in BOTH games strategy and builds hold the same importance. Let’s take for instance PvP in SC1.
Scenario #1:
If a player decides to go 10gate/12 assimilator/12pylon they have chosen a specific build that gets them gas quicker and indicates passing up extra minerals and an earlier second gate in order to get a robo for reavers/obs/shuttle.
Scenario #2:
The player now decides to go 10gate/12pylon/core/assimilator they have chosen a specific build that allows them to get a second gate fast and results in a more aggressive build if they macro dragoons a maximum efficiency in the first 9 minutes of the game. This weakens the player against dt builds, but can be stronger than fast robo builds. The late assimilator also opens the opportunity for a scouting probe that was sent out by the opponent after the 9 pylon to proxy the players gas and put them behind.
Both Scenario #1 and #2 describe build orders that define how the early game is going to play out in a PvP. Now the 8 minute mark is hit and it’s time to decide when to expand. Using scouting to the best of your ability you must ask yourself, has the player been producing units at maximum efficiency (meaning largest army possible in 8 minutes) or did they choose to expand, should you attack and be aggressive, should your expansion be taken early due to good fortunes, or should you wait to the safe 9 minute mark and sit defensively as you expand.
Unfortunately, anyone can eventually figure out the counters to builds.
Fortunately, a great player doesn’t lose because their build is countered. They shift their game plan in reaction to their opponent’s decisions. Unless a player is allin, there is always a solution. The best players will find them.
Conclusion: SC1 and SC2 both require practicing builds to death and developing strategy on how to react to your opponent after your build orders are no longer useful and are now relying on your overall game plan. I personally believe anyone who claims it’s more important in either game has a lack of understanding in the other.
3. Blizzard for the next patch or game, should think about either 2 things. It should get rid of queuing so that APM is more important. Or, it should add another component to the game play so that additional APM is required.
As mentioned earlier, I do not believe APM is the deciding factor. Removing queuing is just adding more responsibility to the player and yes it would impact the game, but many argue for less mundane mechanics because it allows them to focus better on strategy instead of also being responsible for base maintenance. Adding queuing back in would be counter intuitive to this attitude.
As far as adding in useful APM mechanics, I am still a firm believer that the unit clumping design in SC2 is an issue. I believe Blizzard mentioned doing in house testing with unit spacing added in and that the results did not improve the game. Whether the previous statement is true or not, I’d sure like to see a spaced out army as a viewer, but I digress.
Conclusion I believe adding more APM tasks would not help SC2 have bonjwas. That is just my opinion.
Closing Thoughts: The solution to SC2 having bonjwas is not as simple as APM. I think there are reasons we could pick at though. For now, I choose to just enjoy watching the game evolve. LoTV will change things significantly. If things don’t improve from there, then I’m up for having this discussion at a deeper level.
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where do you find time to do that ...
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EPT
