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On December 29 2014 11:10 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2014 10:57 DuckloadBlackra wrote:On December 29 2014 03:16 sAsImre wrote:On December 28 2014 21:40 Dingodile wrote:On December 28 2014 20:02 Godwrath wrote:
There is no doubt that playing BW was harder than playing SC2, but there is absolutely noone that can play perfectly SC2 (not even close to it), so what makes you assume that a diminish return on player skill vs in game reward exists ? In sc2 "if you play with less flaws than your opponent you win". This is so boring to watch that this is the only one way you can win the game. All other rts offers more ways to win such as "you can win (convincing) if you play with your strength (and you can allow to neglect your weakness)". Only Stephano had this "magic" way/play to win so far I have seen. He didnt care to avoid his weakness, only trying to perfect his strenghts. Maru, Inno, Life, Parting are all doing what you say. Just open your eyes instead of believing Stephano is some kind of unique incarnation. None of those guys Maru, Inno, Life, Parting have that "magic" way/play that he's referring to. I agree Stephano is the only one that ever had that. If you can't see Life or Maru very own way to make stuff that they're the only one able to pull off there is a problem I think. Or you just like watching white dudes playing sc2.
I never said anything about whether Life or Maru are one of the few or the only that can pull off a specific thing. A lot of players have a specialty that others are not as good at or can't/don't do.
That's not what we're talking about.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On December 28 2014 20:05 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2014 20:02 Godwrath wrote:
There is no doubt that playing BW was harder than playing SC2, but there is absolutely noone that can play perfectly SC2 (not even close to it), so what makes you assume that a diminish return on player skill vs in game reward exists ? People confuse skill floor and skill ceiling all the time.
i grew tired of explaining this years ago D:
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On December 29 2014 11:38 JimmiC wrote:
Please define bonjwa, I think lots of the confusion is because different people have a different definition.
Isn't it a subjective perception of who we believe to be the best player in the world?
Being that's the case, instead of keeping track of length of time or number of trophies, how about we just track how many games during that specific "bonjwa time period" did that person actually play in. You can then measure different players not in how many years or trophies did they seem dominant, but in how many games did they seem dominant.
How many games did Flash Dominate in BW during his Bonjwa era and compare it to how many games MVP dominated in SC2 during his bonjwa era. Whoever in their "Bonjwa" time period won more games over time will tell you how much "bonjwa" was instilled into each win by the viewers.
Do the same for all the other Bonjwas and we can actually track how often viewers watched someone and called them bonjwa.
For example, from his first trophy until his scandal--how many games did Savior play?
Now, how about Nestea's 2011-2012 where he was the main zerg winning everything--how many games did Nestea play when he was the "best player in the world."
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On December 29 2014 13:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2014 11:38 JimmiC wrote:
Please define bonjwa, I think lots of the confusion is because different people have a different definition. Isn't it a subjective perception of who we believe to be the best player in the world? Being that's the case, instead of keeping track of length of time or number of trophies, how about we just track how many games during that specific "bonjwa time period" did that person actually play in. You can then measure different players not in how many years or trophies did they seem dominant, but in how many games did they seem dominant. How many games did Flash Dominate in BW during his Bonjwa era and compare it to how many games MVP dominated in SC2 during his bonjwa era. Whoever in their "Bonjwa" time period won more games over time will tell you how much "bonjwa" was instilled into each win by the viewers. Do the same for all the other Bonjwas and we can actually track how often viewers watched someone and called them bonjwa. For example, from his first trophy until his scandal--how many games did Savior play? Now, how about Nestea's 2011-2012 where he was the main zerg winning everything--how many games did Nestea play when he was the "best player in the world."
In individual leagues only, in their respective peaks
Flash from Ever OSL 09-10 to ABC Mart MSL: 94-31 (75.20%)
6 golds, 2 silvers
605 Days
Mvp from GSL January 2011 to WCG 2011: 103-43 (70.55%)
6 golds, 1 silver (+1 if you count Code A but you shouldn't)
* does not include Gainward, and Arena of Legends golds, and GeForce silver
344 Days
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bonjwa means winning streak or un-beatable(winning but losing by accident or cheese) over a long period of time that's internally controlled by a greater organization.
I.E. jaedong was bonjwa for a period of time due to his high winrate over probably 1-2 years and the transition to flash showed us how such organization controlled the scene by avoiding deteriorating jd's status by not having jvf
u can take out the last part but I thought it was so obvious the BW scene is entertainment first and competition second.
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I feel like this is one of those threads that can last forever....people will never agree here or find an answer. :-p
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On December 29 2014 14:29 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2014 13:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:On December 29 2014 11:38 JimmiC wrote:
Please define bonjwa, I think lots of the confusion is because different people have a different definition. Isn't it a subjective perception of who we believe to be the best player in the world? Being that's the case, instead of keeping track of length of time or number of trophies, how about we just track how many games during that specific "bonjwa time period" did that person actually play in. You can then measure different players not in how many years or trophies did they seem dominant, but in how many games did they seem dominant. How many games did Flash Dominate in BW during his Bonjwa era and compare it to how many games MVP dominated in SC2 during his bonjwa era. Whoever in their "Bonjwa" time period won more games over time will tell you how much "bonjwa" was instilled into each win by the viewers. Do the same for all the other Bonjwas and we can actually track how often viewers watched someone and called them bonjwa. For example, from his first trophy until his scandal--how many games did Savior play? Now, how about Nestea's 2011-2012 where he was the main zerg winning everything--how many games did Nestea play when he was the "best player in the world." In individual leagues only, in their respective peaks Flash from Ever OSL 09-10 to ABC Mart MSL: 94-31 (75.20%) 6 golds, 2 silvers 605 Days Mvp from GSL January 2011 to WCG 2011: 103-43 (70.55%) 6 golds, 1 silver (+1 if you count Code A but you shouldn't) * does not include Gainward, and Arena of Legends golds, and GeForce silver 344 Days
So this is all about MVP doing it in 344 days instead of 605 days? 
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On December 29 2014 15:29 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2014 14:29 lichter wrote:On December 29 2014 13:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:On December 29 2014 11:38 JimmiC wrote:
Please define bonjwa, I think lots of the confusion is because different people have a different definition. Isn't it a subjective perception of who we believe to be the best player in the world? Being that's the case, instead of keeping track of length of time or number of trophies, how about we just track how many games during that specific "bonjwa time period" did that person actually play in. You can then measure different players not in how many years or trophies did they seem dominant, but in how many games did they seem dominant. How many games did Flash Dominate in BW during his Bonjwa era and compare it to how many games MVP dominated in SC2 during his bonjwa era. Whoever in their "Bonjwa" time period won more games over time will tell you how much "bonjwa" was instilled into each win by the viewers. Do the same for all the other Bonjwas and we can actually track how often viewers watched someone and called them bonjwa. For example, from his first trophy until his scandal--how many games did Savior play? Now, how about Nestea's 2011-2012 where he was the main zerg winning everything--how many games did Nestea play when he was the "best player in the world." In individual leagues only, in their respective peaks Flash from Ever OSL 09-10 to ABC Mart MSL: 94-31 (75.20%) 6 golds, 2 silvers 605 Days Mvp from GSL January 2011 to WCG 2011: 103-43 (70.55%) 6 golds, 1 silver (+1 if you count Code A but you shouldn't) * does not include Gainward, and Arena of Legends golds, and GeForce silver 344 Days So this is all about MVP doing it in 344 days instead of 605 days?
2fast4bonjwa
could be that during this time, Flash didn't win 3 tournaments, while Mvp didn't win 6
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On December 29 2014 15:31 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2014 15:29 Thieving Magpie wrote:On December 29 2014 14:29 lichter wrote:On December 29 2014 13:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:On December 29 2014 11:38 JimmiC wrote:
Please define bonjwa, I think lots of the confusion is because different people have a different definition. Isn't it a subjective perception of who we believe to be the best player in the world? Being that's the case, instead of keeping track of length of time or number of trophies, how about we just track how many games during that specific "bonjwa time period" did that person actually play in. You can then measure different players not in how many years or trophies did they seem dominant, but in how many games did they seem dominant. How many games did Flash Dominate in BW during his Bonjwa era and compare it to how many games MVP dominated in SC2 during his bonjwa era. Whoever in their "Bonjwa" time period won more games over time will tell you how much "bonjwa" was instilled into each win by the viewers. Do the same for all the other Bonjwas and we can actually track how often viewers watched someone and called them bonjwa. For example, from his first trophy until his scandal--how many games did Savior play? Now, how about Nestea's 2011-2012 where he was the main zerg winning everything--how many games did Nestea play when he was the "best player in the world." In individual leagues only, in their respective peaks Flash from Ever OSL 09-10 to ABC Mart MSL: 94-31 (75.20%) 6 golds, 2 silvers 605 Days Mvp from GSL January 2011 to WCG 2011: 103-43 (70.55%) 6 golds, 1 silver (+1 if you count Code A but you shouldn't) * does not include Gainward, and Arena of Legends golds, and GeForce silver 344 Days So this is all about MVP doing it in 344 days instead of 605 days? 2fast4bonjwa could be that during this time, Flash didn't win 3 tournaments, while Mvp didn't win 6
Right now this mostly looks like two players performing with the exact same type* of dominance in a game-to-game comparison and one is considered a bonjwa because of scheduling and not because of performance.
edit:: typo
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only reason bonjwa exist is because terrans were OP in broodwar.
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On December 28 2014 02:44 Big J wrote:
The thing with BW Bonjwas was that the competition was a farce in comparison. It's pretty easy to dominate if the professional player sample is so small. Discuss! (Should have made my own thread I guess. So much insight here!!!!!)
Uhmm do you not understand how the BW Tournament structure in Korea worked? Everybody lived in a practice house, to become a low level practice partner you'd have to prove yourself time and time again, to get a shot at actually playing in a KESPA tournament you'd have to win a 126 player bo3 monthly tournament.
The Professional player sample might have been small, but the tournament structure was built to have a small player pool.
The opposite is true in SC2, the best players often play considerably worse players (Especially Dreamhack and other foreign tournaments), which should in theory inflate their winrates, but it doesn't because there is a bit more luck involved in SC2.
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On December 29 2014 17:01 thezanursic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2014 02:44 Big J wrote:
The thing with BW Bonjwas was that the competition was a farce in comparison. It's pretty easy to dominate if the professional player sample is so small. Discuss! (Should have made my own thread I guess. So much insight here!!!!!) Uhmm do you not understand how the BW Tournament structure in Korea worked? Everybody lived in a practice house, to become a low level practice partner you'd have to prove yourself time and time again, to get a shot at actually playing in a KESPA tournament you'd have to win a 126 player bo3 monthly tournament. The Professional player sample might have been small, but the tournament structure was built to have a small player pool. The opposite is true in SC2, the best players often play considerably worse players (Especially Dreamhack and other foreign tournaments), which should in theory inflate their winrates, but it doesn't because there is a bit more luck involved in SC2.
I have a question about winrates.
I did not know until today that MVP won the same number of games as Flash did during both of their "bonjwa" days, meaning that it took Flash twice as long to do as well as MVP. How many more games does each player in SC2 play compared to BW?
More specifically, how infrequent were the games in BW and can we trust that kind of sample size in comparison with the sample size in SC2?
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On December 29 2014 17:25 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2014 17:01 thezanursic wrote:On December 28 2014 02:44 Big J wrote:
The thing with BW Bonjwas was that the competition was a farce in comparison. It's pretty easy to dominate if the professional player sample is so small. Discuss! (Should have made my own thread I guess. So much insight here!!!!!) Uhmm do you not understand how the BW Tournament structure in Korea worked? Everybody lived in a practice house, to become a low level practice partner you'd have to prove yourself time and time again, to get a shot at actually playing in a KESPA tournament you'd have to win a 126 player bo3 monthly tournament. The Professional player sample might have been small, but the tournament structure was built to have a small player pool. The opposite is true in SC2, the best players often play considerably worse players (Especially Dreamhack and other foreign tournaments), which should in theory inflate their winrates, but it doesn't because there is a bit more luck involved in SC2. I have a question about winrates. I did not know until today that MVP won the same number of games as Flash did during both of their "bonjwa" days, meaning that it took Flash twice as long to do as well as MVP. How many more games does each player in SC2 play compared to BW? More specifically, how infrequent were the games in BW and can we trust that kind of sample size in comparison with the sample size in SC2?
Twice as long but all players had about equal time to prepare so that doesn't really mean much; you could argue that winning consistently in a long practice period environment is more indicative of a player's skill or you could argue that winning a weekend tournament with less preparation is more indicative of a player's skill. Maintaining good form for a longer period of time in any sport is considered difficult as well, so a longer period of time should be counted in Flash's favor.
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I think we are literally sitting in the stage in broodwar where players thought hotkeying buildings was "spammy" the very early days of starcraft were very slow and based on micro of just a few units. The players then were partially stunted by maps not having dependable expansions causing the game to be micro intensive. Say LotV lasted as long as broodwar did. We are in the Grrr... HOT Forever days right now those players were very slow and wore space suites  . By time we get to the boxer and yellow days players will realize and remapped so that they will use 2 production keys and 8 army keys and 8 camera keys but they won't quite have it down. Now lastly the Jaedong, Flash, Bisu days! Once we are at the Jaedong, Flash, Bisu days players will use all 8 cameras and use effective control groups where mechanical limitations are finally gone we see bonjwas for the first time. If you can agree with what I have said in this post look into the core http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/341878-thecore-advanced-keyboard-layout where you can use 10 control groups 8 cameras and removing any limitation the standard hotkeys give.
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On December 29 2014 17:25 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2014 17:01 thezanursic wrote:On December 28 2014 02:44 Big J wrote:
The thing with BW Bonjwas was that the competition was a farce in comparison. It's pretty easy to dominate if the professional player sample is so small. Discuss! (Should have made my own thread I guess. So much insight here!!!!!) Uhmm do you not understand how the BW Tournament structure in Korea worked? Everybody lived in a practice house, to become a low level practice partner you'd have to prove yourself time and time again, to get a shot at actually playing in a KESPA tournament you'd have to win a 126 player bo3 monthly tournament. The Professional player sample might have been small, but the tournament structure was built to have a small player pool. The opposite is true in SC2, the best players often play considerably worse players (Especially Dreamhack and other foreign tournaments), which should in theory inflate their winrates, but it doesn't because there is a bit more luck involved in SC2. I have a question about winrates. I did not know until today that MVP won the same number of games as Flash did during both of their "bonjwa" days, meaning that it took Flash twice as long to do as well as MVP. How many more games does each player in SC2 play compared to BW? More specifically, how infrequent were the games in BW and can we trust that kind of sample size in comparison with the sample size in SC2?
They're not comparable. MVP faced weaker players and was basically doing 1 tournament at a time. Flash dominated an established scene, making the finals of the concurrent individual leagues (OSL + MSL) for 3 consecutive seasons (won 4/6) whilst carrying his team in proleague (80% winrate over two seasons 2009-2011). Which is a pretty ridiculous length of time considering how much players would've been preparing for him and countering his builds.
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On December 28 2014 06:01 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +Strategy and builds have become so much more important in starcraft 2. In theory, this sounds like a better game. But it does sound like a better game. Why force players to have higher APM just for an artificial sense of superior [technical and not strategic] skill? If no one can put in the time to prepare and practice and be smarter than other players, then does someone deserve to be a bonjwa just because they are better physically and have higher APM and multitasking? You could argue yes, but I'd prefer a focus on strategic than technical skill.
Then you are in the wrong genre and should play turnbased strategy games! This is supposed to be an RTS! Real Time Strategy: For me this means that the time you have to focus on things is limited and you have to think about how you want to spend your time on things. For example: In BW you had simply so much to do that you cannot physically do everything, so part of your strategy is setting priorities about how you want to spend your time. Its not a better RTS if "time" doesnt play a huge part in it anymore.
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iloveOov dominated not because of macro, or micro, or mechanics. He simply out thought his opponents time after time. His games were usually very sloppy. During his peak, he was one of the most hated pro gamers on this forum. Even after iloveOov retired he went on to be the most influential coach in BW hands down. His protege Fantasy revolutionized the TvZ matchup which previously had been boiled down to a science, using strategies/builds made by Oov. Long live the first bonjwa, the only man who made boxer cry.
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On December 29 2014 19:17 404AlphaSquad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2014 06:01 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Strategy and builds have become so much more important in starcraft 2. In theory, this sounds like a better game. But it does sound like a better game. Why force players to have higher APM just for an artificial sense of superior [technical and not strategic] skill? If no one can put in the time to prepare and practice and be smarter than other players, then does someone deserve to be a bonjwa just because they are better physically and have higher APM and multitasking? You could argue yes, but I'd prefer a focus on strategic than technical skill. Then you are in the wrong genre and should play turnbased strategy games! This is supposed to be an RTS! Real Time Strategy: For me this means that the time you have to focus on things is limited and you have to think about how you want to spend your time on things. For example: In BW you had simply so much to do that you cannot physically do everything, so part of your strategy is setting priorities about how you want to spend your time. Its not a better RTS if "time" doesnt play a huge part in it anymore.
Starcraft/Blizzard-RTSstyle that plays very roleplay-esque (by intention), while the more oldschool RTSstyle is much more strategy/composition reliant.
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The reason we will never see a bonjwa is because everything is set in stone.
Let me explain:
MVP was the first player to figure out most things in WoL. That dosent make you a bonjwa, makes you a boxer. Boxer also figured out most things in Broodwar first, and that gave him a huge edge for many years, but eventually it wasent enought.
In sc2 there are few unit imbalances that can be countered with skill: One example is Banes vs marine splits.
It is far harder for the terran player, where as for the zerg the hard part is to get enought banes (and nowdays also drag widow mine shots).
IN sc bw it was more common to require constant unit control, even micro to manage a high set of efficiency with any unit composition.
When zergs talk about terran mech or protoss air, they are correct: it is broken. Sure, you have to survive till that stage, and thats not easy, but in theory, in a balanced game, 200 army vs 200 army should never end in one player loosing everything and the other loosing 20 supply.
The problem is that you cant fix a broken care by adding new wheels, you need to rework the car from the ground up.
It does mater if blizzard adds patches that nerf or buff things, but it does not mean it will actually balance the game.
Now, in order for a bonjwa to appear, we would need a player who is able to deal with everything that can be thrown at him for a long time. This game has too many all-inish builds that are specifically designed to destroy standard builds or economically strong builds.
It is not possible for one player to always read correctly the signs, because the same signs can mean different things and require different approaches.
That is why in my opinion blizzard has things like hallucinations, overlord upgraded speed and scans: Because constant scouting is key in this game.
Also note how many rushes are used even at the highest level of gaming. in broodwar a 9 pool or a proxy gate, or a bbs was something casters considered BOLD to do. Because everyone knew how to stop them dead in their tracks. They could still work, but most players would avoid rushing like the plague.
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EPT
