EPTAs usual threads like these are dumb.
Improvements: Why we will never see a bonjwa. - Page 5
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
As usual threads like these are dumb. | ||
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aRyuujin
United States5049 Posts
On December 28 2014 13:11 epi wrote: Spoken like somebody who never watched Jaedong and Flash in BW. They both had "good enough" mechanics, but that's not why they were great. Flash in particular had mediocre APM and below-average micro - and anyone who's watched any of Flash's SC2 games in the last few months should know that too. you honestly think flash's micro was "below average" lol? | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On December 28 2014 09:51 Cascade wrote: Wouldn't you say that bw has a higher skill ceiling than hots? Not that all pros are playing identically, but more like a strong bw pro has a 75% win chance against a weaker player, a hots pro will have only 65% win chance against an equally weaker opponent. That would make it harder to have a bonjwa in hots than in bw, which is what I think the OP is referring to. Then whether the skill ceiling is higher or not, I am not sure. It is my impression that it is higher in bw, but I feel the subject is very open for debate. It's not open for debate, there are statistics that you can actually look up. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/BoxeR#Statistics http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Iloveoov#Statistics http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/NaDa#Statistics http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/SAviOr#Career_Statistics http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/July#Statistics http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Jaedong#Statistics http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Flash#Statistics The average winrate during 'peak years' is around 70% (which is really good) or 60%. In response to your question 'Wouldn't you say that bw has a higher skill ceiling than hots?' it is impossible to assess because every patch to HotS and the impending subsequent title changes the actual way players understand the game. This leaves players scrambling to find a solution to the new problem of figuring out how to play after patches, and there is an inevitable gravitation towards certain winning strategies. As players become more aware of the games' outcomes over time, the strategies will no longer evolve to adapt to the patch, but evolve to adapt to what many people refer to as 'the meta-game'. | ||
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lolmlg
619 Posts
On December 28 2014 13:04 -Celestial- wrote: BW players in most cases took a while to catch up and when they did it wasn't always the names you'd expect, some legends demonstrated that they couldn't adapt and some lesser known players took up that baton and ran away with it "BW players took a while to catch up" should really go without saying. Players like Flash were playing a different game on a professional level for basically the entire opening era of SC2. They played SC2 for a portion of that time but it wasn't their main focus. "The names you'd expect" depends on the observer. I think rational observers had the following two things at the forefront of their minds at the time: 1) SC2 is not BW. It's a different game requiring different aptitudes and players will have different types and levels of affinity for it. Not everyone who enjoys or is talented at BW is going to enjoy or be talented at SC2 so it's absurd to expect the same levels of passion and performance. 2) Notable players typically have a period of dominance followed by an extended period of decline. Some of the biggest names of BW are currently in decline and quite obviously so. There are some notable up-and-comers but it remains to be seen how well their skill-sets will carry over. In the end some of the most notable KeSPA players were those up-and-comers. Players like Innovation and Soulkey who were at the cusps of their respective primes. But as players like soO ultimately demonstrated, it was a bit foolhardy to have "expectations". | ||
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TelecoM
United States10682 Posts
On December 28 2014 13:11 epi wrote: Flash in particular had mediocre APM and below-average micro - ..... ................. No comment. | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
On December 28 2014 13:29 lichter wrote: The desire for bonjwas is stupid. Why would you want one person to win everything? If anything the sport becomes more of a farce (see La Liga beforr Atletico last year) when it is dominated. As usual threads like these are dumb. This. | ||
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Highways
Australia6105 Posts
On December 28 2014 13:29 lichter wrote: The desire for bonjwas is stupid. Why would you want one person to win everything? If anything the sport becomes more of a farce (see La Liga beforr Atletico last year) when it is dominated. As usual threads like these are dumb. Superstars is what people want to see. It draws more people to watch the game. Look at tennis, Men's tennis is dominated by the top 4. Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, and Murray. This is a marketers dream. If a random is winning every week, like in SC2. No one cares. The game is too random. | ||
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Highways
Australia6105 Posts
You won't see bonjwa's, which is sad. If SC2 wants to be popular as an esport, it needs superstars to dominate. Players that everyone looks up to, players that draw thousands of people whenever they play. Look at BW. Players like jaedong, flash and bisu draws massive crowds and hype whenever they play. It makes the game way more popular, with both casuals and hardcore people. With SC2 you can be the best one week, and lose every match the next week because the game is so random. There is no player to generate the hype and stardom. David Kim needs to get sacked. Bring back micro and skill into Starcraft!! | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On December 28 2014 15:48 Highways wrote: Superstars is what people want to see. It draws more people to watch the game. Look at tennis, Men's tennis is dominated by the top 4. Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, and Murray. This is a marketers dream. If a random is winning every week, like in SC2. No one cares. The game is too random. In an unrelated note, nobody cares about Men's Tennis. | ||
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Kiarip
United States1835 Posts
On December 28 2014 15:58 ninazerg wrote: In an unrelated note, nobody cares about Men's Tennis. Well more people care about men's tennis than do about starcraft. Still, the top 10 is pretty consistent throughout the course of a season in SC2. There's just way more competitions in SC2 than there were in BW. In BW if you happened to win an OSL and an MSL in the same year you've practically stomped your name into the game's history. In SC2 there's too many tournaments with too many different formats for anyone to be that consistent. | ||
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DuckloadBlackra
225 Posts
On December 28 2014 15:58 ninazerg wrote: In an unrelated note, nobody cares about Men's Tennis. What an unbelievably stupid statement to make... Tons of people care about Men's Tennis. You don't earn $71.5 million a year as an individual superstar from nobody caring about your sport. | ||
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DuckloadBlackra
225 Posts
On December 28 2014 13:29 lichter wrote: The desire for bonjwas is stupid. Why would you want one person to win everything? If anything the sport becomes more of a farce (see La Liga beforr Atletico last year) when it is dominated. As usual threads like these are dumb. Not sure if serious... I'm pretty sure the majority of people agree that the times of Boxer/Savior/iloveoov/Flash/Jaedong/Bisu etc were very exciting and they would much prefer that these stars existed than not. Sure not all of these were bonjwas but they were all wayyyyy up there. | ||
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Wildmoon
Thailand4189 Posts
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Wildmoon
Thailand4189 Posts
On December 28 2014 15:53 Highways wrote: SC2's skill ceiling is too low, and the game is badly designed (too much reliance on build orders, hard counters etc...) You won't see bonjwa's, which is sad. If SC2 wants to be popular as an esport, it needs superstars to dominate. Players that everyone looks up to, players that draw thousands of people whenever they play. Look at BW. Players like jaedong, flash and bisu draws massive crowds and hype whenever they play. It makes the game way more popular, with both casuals and hardcore people. With SC2 you can be the best one week, and lose every match the next week because the game is so random. There is no player to generate the hype and stardom. David Kim needs to get sacked. Bring back micro and skill into Starcraft!! Saying it's skill ceiling is too low is laughable when players like Flash and Jaedong haven't even touched the ceiling.. There were times when one player dominated for periods of time. Mvp's winrate at his peak was no different from your BW pros. SC2 pros also could not stay in one place if they wanted to be widely accepted as the world best. | ||
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DuckloadBlackra
225 Posts
On December 28 2014 16:35 Wildmoon wrote: Saying it's skill ceiling is too low is laughable when players like Flash and Jaedong haven't even touched the ceiling.. There were times when one player dominated for periods of time. Mvp's winrate at his peak was no different from your BW pros. SC2 pros also could not stay in one place if they wanted to be widely accepted as the world best. It's not that the skill ceiling is too low it's that there's too much stuff like luck, unit hard counters, this build beats that build even if the player with the better build plays worse than the other guy. Makes it almost impossible for there to ever be a bonjwa. | ||
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Wildmoon
Thailand4189 Posts
On December 28 2014 16:48 DuckloadBlackra wrote: It's not that the skill ceiling is too low it's that there's too much stuff like luck, unit hard counters, this build beats that build even if the player with the better build plays worse than the other guy. Makes it almost impossible for there to ever be a bonjwa. That's not actually even the main reason imo. It's just that tournaments in SC2 are all over the place and with many formats. Almost impossible to be prepared for everything. | ||
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Kiarip
United States1835 Posts
On December 28 2014 16:57 Wildmoon wrote: That's not actually even the main reason imo. It's just that tournaments in SC2 are all over the place and with many formats. Almost impossible to be prepared for everything. It is largely this and it's not a bad thing. People just need to learn how to take these things in stride and not have knee jerk reactions when someone gets eliminated early and etc. | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On December 28 2014 11:16 Godwrath wrote: I will bite. How bigger the skill ceiling is, is completely irrelevant if noone can reach the top in none of the games. As an example (completely made up, just to ilustrate the point). Game/player skill Skill ceiling (!!) BW : ++++++++++++++ _______________________ !! SC2: ++++++++++++++ ____________ !! What makes you think that if people haven't truly mastered and can't play SC2 to perfection, would make it any relevant if BW skill ceiling was bigger ? I'll try to explain how I think. The simplest view of a skill ceiling is that at a certain point in skill (the ceiling) any more skill does not improve your chances of winning. This goes for games like tic tac toe. A but more realistic and nuanced model for a game like StarCraft is that at higher skill levels you get diminished return for more skill. Diminished return in a sense of chance to win a game. A kind of soft skill cap. This can happen well before the game is played at mathematical perfection (which will never be achieved by humans of course). That model could then make it harder for a dominating player to appear with highly diminished return, as you would have to be a lot more skilled to get your, say, 70% win rate. So that would be the principle. Then I will not claim to know how far into diminished return hots or bw is (or was in 2005). Seems like ninazerg was more informed, although I didn't quite get the conclusion. | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On December 28 2014 13:49 ninazerg wrote: It's not open for debate, there are statistics that you can actually look up. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/BoxeR#Statistics http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Iloveoov#Statistics http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/NaDa#Statistics http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/SAviOr#Career_Statistics http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/July#Statistics http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Jaedong#Statistics http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Flash#Statistics The average winrate during 'peak years' is around 70% (which is really good) or 60%. In response to your question 'Wouldn't you say that bw has a higher skill ceiling than hots?' it is impossible to assess because every patch to HotS and the impending subsequent title changes the actual way players understand the game. This leaves players scrambling to find a solution to the new problem of figuring out how to play after patches, and there is an inevitable gravitation towards certain winning strategies. As players become more aware of the games' outcomes over time, the strategies will no longer evolve to adapt to the patch, but evolve to adapt to what many people refer to as 'the meta-game'. I'm confused. I meant that it was up to debate whether bw had a higher skill ceiling than hots. First you say that it is not up to debate, and you give me win rates from bw. (Thanks.) Then you say that it is impossible to assess if bw has a higher skill ceiling than hots. :/ think there is some misunderstanding, sorry. What isn't open for debate? Anyway I agree on the point that the entire skill ceiling business depends on the current state of the game, and the "meta". | ||
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annedeman
Netherlands350 Posts
On December 28 2014 02:29 perspicaciousinnate wrote: What do you guys think of this theory? Because Blizzard incorporated queuing into starcraft 2, APM has become much less important. (APM is still very important but just less so.) In starcraft 1, without queuing, a pro would hypothetically need 400 APM to attain a certain level of control. In contrast, in starcraft 2, with queuing, a pro would hypothetically need 300 APM to attain the same level of control. Since, there are more pros with 300 APM, it's less likely you'll get a bonjwa. On the other hand, the players would can get 400 APM are very few so bonjwa's are possible. Strategy and builds have become so much more important in starcraft 2. In theory, this sounds like a better game. Unfortunately, anyone can eventually figure out the counters to builds. Preparation has become that much important and this has leveled out the playing field a bit because it becomes a matter of how much time you put in. It relies less on latent ability. We see this in practice. Jaedong and Flash with their insane multitasking and APM were able to attain dominance for a long time. In starcraft 2, it's definitely helped them get into the top 20. But, no one will ever attain bonjwa status. Blizzard for the next patch or game, should think about either 2 things. It should get rid of queuing so that APM is more important. Or, it should add another component to the game play so that additional APM is required. difficulty for the sake of being difficult is pointless, you could hold tournaments that requires people to dishwash and play at the same time, even though dish washing and playing the game would tax people more it would still be boring, i would rather play a game that is less then 80% dishwashing, the macro mechanics are not the things i would want from BW, but the high ground mechanics, and especially the way mineral saturates, encouraging expansions, are the things that would look to be good, difficulty should come from game depth, microing and attacking and defending at multiple places not from increasing the difficulty of the chores part of the game | ||
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