EPTNOT LIKE BW, BW IS FOR REAL PROS WITH 1000+ APM LIKE SAVIOR AND ILOVEOOV, THEY HAD GREAT APM THATS WHY THEY WERE SO GOOD AT BW
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Improvements: Why we will never see a bonjwa. - Page 4
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Apoteosis
Chile820 Posts
NOT LIKE BW, BW IS FOR REAL PROS WITH 1000+ APM LIKE SAVIOR AND ILOVEOOV, THEY HAD GREAT APM THATS WHY THEY WERE SO GOOD AT BW User was warned for this post | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On December 28 2014 09:10 ninazerg wrote: It totally is. And I already feel like there are some horridly misinformed comparisons of SC1 to SC2. The OP makes the wrong assumption that SC2 isn't demanding enough from the players, which is a basic false-logic appeal to the 'skill ceiling' argument. Wouldn't you say that bw has a higher skill ceiling than hots? Not that all pros are playing identically, but more like a strong bw pro has a 75% win chance against a weaker player, a hots pro will have only 65% win chance against an equally weaker opponent. That would make it harder to have a bonjwa in hots than in bw, which is what I think the OP is referring to. Then whether the skill ceiling is higher or not, I am not sure. It is my impression that it is higher in bw, but I feel the subject is very open for debate. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10682 Posts
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kaykoose
United States2302 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
Whether that is a good or bad thing is debateable, but I don't think it's debateable that BW is more mechanically demanding than Sc2. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2654 Posts
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Godwrath
Spain10131 Posts
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Godwrath
Spain10131 Posts
On December 28 2014 09:51 Cascade wrote: Wouldn't you say that bw has a higher skill ceiling than hots? Not that all pros are playing identically, but more like a strong bw pro has a 75% win chance against a weaker player, a hots pro will have only 65% win chance against an equally weaker opponent. That would make it harder to have a bonjwa in hots than in bw, which is what I think the OP is referring to. Then whether the skill ceiling is higher or not, I am not sure. It is my impression that it is higher in bw, but I feel the subject is very open for debate. I will bite. How bigger the skill ceiling is, is completely irrelevant if noone can reach the top in none of the games. As an example (completely made up, just to ilustrate the point). Game/player skill Skill ceiling (!!) BW : ++++++++++++++ _______________________ !! SC2: ++++++++++++++ ____________ !! What makes you think that if people haven't truly mastered and can't play SC2 to perfection, would make it any relevant if BW skill ceiling was bigger ? | ||
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H0i
Netherlands484 Posts
On December 28 2014 11:04 Hider wrote: The more mechanically challenging a game is, the more likely it is that the best players will dominate. While strategy and decisionmaking are also a skillset, it's a type of skillset that is less likely to be able to provide consistent results since it's easier to copy or learn. Whether that is a good or bad thing is debateable, but I don't think it's debateable that BW is more mechanically demanding than Sc2. This is complete nonsense. You write this post with the assumption that the 'best player' is the one with the best mechanical skill. But the game does not exclusively consist out of mechanical skill; thus such a player is not necessarily the best. The player who wins is the best player. Simple as that. It doesn't matter that his opponent may have better mechanics, he managed to make up for this deficit in some other way. Strategy and decision making easy to copy or learn? Actually it is mechanics that are easy to learn, it just takes a lot of time to do so. | ||
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kasumimi
Greece460 Posts
On December 28 2014 02:29 perspicaciousinnate wrote: What do you guys think of this theory? Because Blizzard incorporated queuing into starcraft 2, APM has become much less important. (APM is still very important but just less so.) In starcraft 1, without queuing, a pro would hypothetically need 400 APM to attain a certain level of control. In contrast, in starcraft 2, with queuing, a pro would hypothetically need 300 APM to attain the same level of control. Since, there are more pros with 300 APM, it's less likely you'll get a bonjwa. On the other hand, the players would can get 400 APM are very few so bonjwa's are possible. Strategy and builds have become so much more important in starcraft 2. In theory, this sounds like a better game. Unfortunately, anyone can eventually figure out the counters to builds. Preparation has become that much important and this has leveled out the playing field a bit because it becomes a matter of how much time you put in. It relies less on latent ability. We see this in practice. Jaedong and Flash with their insane multitasking and APM were able to attain dominance for a long time. In starcraft 2, it's definitely helped them get into the top 20. But, no one will ever attain bonjwa status. Blizzard for the next patch or game, should think about either 2 things. It should get rid of queuing so that APM is more important. Or, it should add another component to the game play so that additional APM is required. You might want to add "poor unit design" in your list of reasons. SC2's units a very overpowered (through all races) and it's one of the reasons 95% of the games are instantly over. Games are decided long before they actually end due this as well. | ||
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polpot
3002 Posts
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ChoDing
United States740 Posts
On December 28 2014 09:49 Apoteosis wrote: HEY GUYS SC2 SO EZ SC2 IS FOR NOOBS WITH ZERO APM LIKE LIFE AND DEAR NOT LIKE BW, BW IS FOR REAL PROS WITH 1000+ APM LIKE SAVIOR AND ILOVEOOV, THEY HAD GREAT APM THATS WHY THEY WERE SO GOOD AT BW User was warned for this post hahah so great | ||
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Kazahk
United States385 Posts
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sorrowptoss
Canada1431 Posts
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ETisME
12497 Posts
some might say it is even harder to achieve than BW in this sense :p | ||
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nakedsurfer
Canada500 Posts
Even if a player wins 3 tournaments in a row and wins over 70% of their games, there will always be an excuse nowadays. I don't think it could happen in sc2 though because of how many tournaments/travelling is done between the players and what people consider a "legitimate" tournament. I do believe that as far as SC2 goes, I'd consider MVP a bonjwa. He was definitely way ahead of is era and was always considered at least top 3 terrans during a time where terran was seen as overly dominate. I don't think anyone will be able to catch up to him because Legacy of the Void is basically a new game. He is the winner of SC2 | ||
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TelecoM
United States10682 Posts
You know how many random 350-400+ apm Koreans I've played ? I guess the OP is joking but people took this seriously, me included... I believe Julyzerg who hit the highest recorded APM in a live broadcasted pro match, but he was never considered a "Bonjwa". KyO who was famous for hitting 400-500 -/+ APM, was never really that famous, and never a "Bonjwa" Anyways...I will stand alongside the fact that I don't think its possible for someone to be a "Bonjwa" in SC2, because it hasn't been out long enough, and I think the term should stick with BW....maybe until SC2 meets BW in many different factors, I just don't think its right to throw this term around. | ||
c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
For one...MVP is the SC2 equivalent of a bonjwa given his lordship over most of WoL. Call it whatever you like if you don't like the term "bonjwa"; but he is a legend of the game who showed utter dominance for a significant extended period of time. Think up a new term if you wish because the SC2 scene is rather larger internationally than the BW scene was so its harder for one person to win literally everything, but to dismiss his accomplishments is incredibly disrespectful. On a side note to head off the "but it was WoL"...that doesn't matter. You play the game you've got and it doesn't matter whether we've come a way since then. For another, don't link that Elephant in the Room article. You're embarrassing yourself. Its been thoroughly debunked. The declaration (I'd say hypothesis but it wasn't really a hypothesis because it stated "this is true!") was that the best BW players were way, way better than the best SC2 players so as soon as they came across all the current (at the time) SC2 players would be relegated to the very bottom whilst the top was going to be taken over by the BW elites. That factually did not happen...a mix of both BW and SC2 players crashed down, BW players in most cases took a while to catch up and when they did it wasn't always the names you'd expect, some legends demonstrated that they couldn't adapt and some lesser known players took up that baton and ran away with it. It shook up the scene, but the prediction in the article did not come to fruition. And finally...the premise of the OP is that APM = bonjwa. What...seriously? *facepalm* | ||
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epi
Canada115 Posts
On December 28 2014 02:29 perspicaciousinnate wrote: We see this in practice. Jaedong and Flash with their insane multitasking and APM were able to attain dominance for a long time. In starcraft 2, it's definitely helped them get into the top 20. But, no one will ever attain bonjwa status. Spoken like somebody who never watched Jaedong and Flash in BW. They both had "good enough" mechanics, but that's not why they were great. Flash in particular had mediocre APM and below-average micro - and anyone who's watched any of Flash's SC2 games in the last few months should know that too. | ||
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