EPTOn December 30 2014 22:53 BisuDagger wrote:
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Eveyone is arguing over Flash vs MVP. Does anyone actually address and discuss the issues the OP brings up? Let’s get this back on track.
1. APM value in SC2 compared to SC1
APM in SC1 I use a quote from 2005:
Furthermore, current Brood War player by.hero has the highest APM among active players and is not a clear cut #1.
Conclusion: “apm is important, but only when it goes towards significant actions.” This applies to both SC1 and SC2. Based on this opinion, I do not believe APM has become any more or less important in SC2 and do not believe the higher APM in either game dictates whether one can become a bonjwa.
2. Strategy and builds have become so much more important in starcraft 2.
Obviously this is an opinion by the OP and I do not share this same thought. I believe that in BOTH games strategy and builds hold the same importance. Let’s take for instance PvP in SC1.
Scenario #1:
If a player decides to go 10gate/12 assimilator/12pylon they have chosen a specific build that gets them gas quicker and indicates passing up extra minerals and an earlier second gate in order to get a robo for reavers/obs/shuttle.
Scenario #2:
The player now decides to go 10gate/12pylon/core/assimilator they have chosen a specific build that allows them to get a second gate fast and results in a more aggressive build if they macro dragoons a maximum efficiency in the first 9 minutes of the game. This weakens the player against dt builds, but can be stronger than fast robo builds. The late assimilator also opens the opportunity for a scouting probe that was sent out by the opponent after the 9 pylon to proxy the players gas and put them behind.
Both Scenario #1 and #2 describe build orders that define how the early game is going to play out in a PvP. Now the 8 minute mark is hit and it’s time to decide when to expand. Using scouting to the best of your ability you must ask yourself, has the player been producing units at maximum efficiency (meaning largest army possible in 8 minutes) or did they choose to expand, should you attack and be aggressive, should your expansion be taken early due to good fortunes, or should you wait to the safe 9 minute mark and sit defensively as you expand.
Fortunately, a great player doesn’t lose because their build is countered. They shift their game plan in reaction to their opponent’s decisions. Unless a player is allin, there is always a solution. The best players will find them.
Conclusion: SC1 and SC2 both require practicing builds to death and developing strategy on how to react to your opponent after your build orders are no longer useful and are now relying on your overall game plan. I personally believe anyone who claims it’s more important in either game has a lack of understanding in the other.
3.
As mentioned earlier, I do not believe APM is the deciding factor. Removing queuing is just adding more responsibility to the player and yes it would impact the game, but many argue for less mundane mechanics because it allows them to focus better on strategy instead of also being responsible for base maintenance. Adding queuing back in would be counter intuitive to this attitude.
As far as adding in useful APM mechanics, I am still a firm believer that the unit clumping design in SC2 is an issue. I believe Blizzard mentioned doing in house testing with unit spacing added in and that the results did not improve the game. Whether the previous statement is true or not, I’d sure like to see a spaced out army as a viewer, but I digress.
Conclusion I believe adding more APM tasks would not help SC2 have bonjwas. That is just my opinion.
Closing Thoughts: The solution to SC2 having bonjwas is not as simple as APM. I think there are reasons we could pick at though. For now, I choose to just enjoy watching the game evolve. LoTV will change things significantly. If things don’t improve from there, then I’m up for having this discussion at a deeper level.
On December 28 2014 02:29 perspicaciousinnate wrote:
What do you guys think of this theory?
Because Blizzard incorporated queuing into starcraft 2, APM has become much less important. (APM is still very important but just less so.)
In starcraft 1, without queuing, a pro would hypothetically need 400 APM to attain a certain level of control. In contrast, in starcraft 2, with queuing, a pro would hypothetically need 300 APM to attain the same level of control. Since, there are more pros with 300 APM, it's less likely you'll get a bonjwa. On the other hand, the players would can get 400 APM are very few so bonjwa's are possible.
Strategy and builds have become so much more important in starcraft 2. In theory, this sounds like a better game. Unfortunately, anyone can eventually figure out the counters to builds. Preparation has become that much important and this has leveled out the playing field a bit because it becomes a matter of how much time you put in. It relies less on latent ability.
We see this in practice. Jaedong and Flash with their insane multitasking and APM were able to attain dominance for a long time. In starcraft 2, it's definitely helped them get into the top 20. But, no one will ever attain bonjwa status.
Blizzard for the next patch or game, should think about either 2 things. It should get rid of queuing so that APM is more important. Or, it should add another component to the game play so that additional APM is required.
What do you guys think of this theory?
Because Blizzard incorporated queuing into starcraft 2, APM has become much less important. (APM is still very important but just less so.)
In starcraft 1, without queuing, a pro would hypothetically need 400 APM to attain a certain level of control. In contrast, in starcraft 2, with queuing, a pro would hypothetically need 300 APM to attain the same level of control. Since, there are more pros with 300 APM, it's less likely you'll get a bonjwa. On the other hand, the players would can get 400 APM are very few so bonjwa's are possible.
Strategy and builds have become so much more important in starcraft 2. In theory, this sounds like a better game. Unfortunately, anyone can eventually figure out the counters to builds. Preparation has become that much important and this has leveled out the playing field a bit because it becomes a matter of how much time you put in. It relies less on latent ability.
We see this in practice. Jaedong and Flash with their insane multitasking and APM were able to attain dominance for a long time. In starcraft 2, it's definitely helped them get into the top 20. But, no one will ever attain bonjwa status.
Blizzard for the next patch or game, should think about either 2 things. It should get rid of queuing so that APM is more important. Or, it should add another component to the game play so that additional APM is required.
1. APM value in SC2 compared to SC1
APM in SC1 I use a quote from 2005:
The community has learned that spamming constantly is not necessary or even good. Dominant players such as Iloveoov & Savior[gm], arguably two the two best players ever, typically have around 250apm, compared to Nada’s 500 or so. So, yes, apm is important, but only when it goes towards significant actions. 100apm is low, and will affect your multitasking ability greatly. –KnickKnack
Furthermore, current Brood War player by.hero has the highest APM among active players and is not a clear cut #1.
Conclusion: “apm is important, but only when it goes towards significant actions.” This applies to both SC1 and SC2. Based on this opinion, I do not believe APM has become any more or less important in SC2 and do not believe the higher APM in either game dictates whether one can become a bonjwa.
2. Strategy and builds have become so much more important in starcraft 2.
Obviously this is an opinion by the OP and I do not share this same thought. I believe that in BOTH games strategy and builds hold the same importance. Let’s take for instance PvP in SC1.
Scenario #1:
If a player decides to go 10gate/12 assimilator/12pylon they have chosen a specific build that gets them gas quicker and indicates passing up extra minerals and an earlier second gate in order to get a robo for reavers/obs/shuttle.
Scenario #2:
The player now decides to go 10gate/12pylon/core/assimilator they have chosen a specific build that allows them to get a second gate fast and results in a more aggressive build if they macro dragoons a maximum efficiency in the first 9 minutes of the game. This weakens the player against dt builds, but can be stronger than fast robo builds. The late assimilator also opens the opportunity for a scouting probe that was sent out by the opponent after the 9 pylon to proxy the players gas and put them behind.
Both Scenario #1 and #2 describe build orders that define how the early game is going to play out in a PvP. Now the 8 minute mark is hit and it’s time to decide when to expand. Using scouting to the best of your ability you must ask yourself, has the player been producing units at maximum efficiency (meaning largest army possible in 8 minutes) or did they choose to expand, should you attack and be aggressive, should your expansion be taken early due to good fortunes, or should you wait to the safe 9 minute mark and sit defensively as you expand.
Unfortunately, anyone can eventually figure out the counters to builds.
Fortunately, a great player doesn’t lose because their build is countered. They shift their game plan in reaction to their opponent’s decisions. Unless a player is allin, there is always a solution. The best players will find them.
Conclusion: SC1 and SC2 both require practicing builds to death and developing strategy on how to react to your opponent after your build orders are no longer useful and are now relying on your overall game plan. I personally believe anyone who claims it’s more important in either game has a lack of understanding in the other.
3.
Blizzard for the next patch or game, should think about either 2 things. It should get rid of queuing so that APM is more important. Or, it should add another component to the game play so that additional APM is required.
As mentioned earlier, I do not believe APM is the deciding factor. Removing queuing is just adding more responsibility to the player and yes it would impact the game, but many argue for less mundane mechanics because it allows them to focus better on strategy instead of also being responsible for base maintenance. Adding queuing back in would be counter intuitive to this attitude.
As far as adding in useful APM mechanics, I am still a firm believer that the unit clumping design in SC2 is an issue. I believe Blizzard mentioned doing in house testing with unit spacing added in and that the results did not improve the game. Whether the previous statement is true or not, I’d sure like to see a spaced out army as a viewer, but I digress.
Conclusion I believe adding more APM tasks would not help SC2 have bonjwas. That is just my opinion.
Closing Thoughts: The solution to SC2 having bonjwas is not as simple as APM. I think there are reasons we could pick at though. For now, I choose to just enjoy watching the game evolve. LoTV will change things significantly. If things don’t improve from there, then I’m up for having this discussion at a deeper level.
Finally, some sensible words, Thank you!
BW and WC3 needed time to develop and the game-play changed so much from when they were originally released. I'm eagerly looking forward to what the LoTV Era has in store for us.
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/HawaiianPig/TLFE/saviordifference.png)
