EPTImprovements: Why we will never see a bonjwa. - Page 8
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LuckyGnomTV
Russian Federation367 Posts
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thezanursic
5497 Posts
On December 29 2014 17:25 Thieving Magpie wrote: I have a question about winrates. I did not know until today that MVP won the same number of games as Flash did during both of their "bonjwa" days, meaning that it took Flash twice as long to do as well as MVP. How many more games does each player in SC2 play compared to BW? More specifically, how infrequent were the games in BW and can we trust that kind of sample size in comparison with the sample size in SC2? BW games were very frequent because of proleague. Also SC2 was a young game, nobody understood how to play it at a time, when Flash dominated, the game was out for 10+ years. | ||
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thezanursic
5497 Posts
On December 29 2014 15:29 Thieving Magpie wrote: So this is all about MVP doing it in 344 days instead of 605 days?  Also BW had considerably less tournaments especially in 2011 and 2012.FlashBisu/Jaedong dominated, and they would have certainly been the ones to pick those tournaments up if they were to happen. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
On December 29 2014 20:21 LuckyGnomTV wrote: I cant believe someone calls SC2 a "luck game". Are you decent at SC2 at all? You can scout almost at every moment of a game with a lot of different units and at BW usually even first scout was denied by some units, so you were leaved guessing what should you do and how much greed you can let to do yourself. Also, the game is still being figured out and rather incomplete considering the last expansion isn't even out. Check out the SSL (or S2SL as they call it here to let Brood War breathe I guess) for some damn tight play. | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On December 29 2014 20:21 LuckyGnomTV wrote: I cant believe someone calls SC2 a "luck game". Are you decent at SC2 at all? You can scout almost at every moment of a game with a lot of different units and at BW usually even first scout was denied by some units, so you were leaved guessing what should you do and how much greed you can let to do yourself. I think it comes with the concept of RTS that since you don't know everything your opponent's doing, sometimes you have to make decisions which aren't influenced by your opponent. You can't always scout. For example, in PvP, it's really hard to scout between the 4~6 minute mark, which is exactly when one chooses his first tech, whether he wants to expand before adding additional gateways or not, etc. That's why people call it 'rock paper scissors'. Obviously there are many other examples. Hell, even deciding not to scout in/outside your natural for proxies is something that most pro players do to get some extra income, and it's a coinflip if there actually is a proxy. I wish they 'buffed' scouting in some form. Too often you feel like you lost not because your opponent was better than you, but because he was more lucky. | ||
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Dingodile
4136 Posts
On December 29 2014 20:21 LuckyGnomTV wrote: I cant believe someone calls SC2 a "luck game". Are you decent at SC2 at all? You can scout almost at every moment of a game with a lot of different units and at BW usually even first scout was denied by some units, so you were leaved guessing what should you do and how much greed you can let to do yourself. Do you have any RTS experience outside sc2? sc2 is the most luck-based RTS game I have played in the last 10 years. It is Blizzard's biggest priority, we have to deal with it | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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ClueClueClue
Sweden1203 Posts
On December 29 2014 23:43 thezanursic wrote: BW games were very frequent because of proleague. Also SC2 was a young game, nobody understood how to play it at a time, when Flash dominated, the game was out for 10+ years. Why compare Mvp to Flash, for the same reasons? Flash wasn't the only Bonjwa of BW... | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On December 29 2014 23:48 thezanursic wrote: Also BW had considerably less tournaments especially in 2011 and 2012.FlashBisu/Jaedong dominated, and they would have certainly been the ones to pick those tournaments up if they were to happen. I just don't feel comfortable saying someone is better because the venue scheduled the tournaments less frequently than another venue. We need a better metric than win-rate and time perception because it seems whenever actual numbers are put into play the bonjwa title melts away. Flash seemed unbeatable for the same number of games as MVP and yet it feels right to call Flash Bonjwa because he played over two years instead of one year. Bisu is called a bonjwa despite not winning as much as Flash in premier leagues. I knew that Bonjwa is an arbitrary perception and all, but the moment it becomes tactile it just fades away. Can we just leave bonjwa in Broodwar? | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
In BW the skill ceiling and skill progression was so ridiculous that the rank 1 player could consistently beat the ranks 2-9 80% of the time. In SC2 it's more like anyone in the top 200 beat anyone in the top 200 any day. | ||
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
On December 30 2014 02:00 mishimaBeef wrote: I think it's a very dynamic game with extremely tight timings in certain situations. Missing some key timings will leave your fate to chance sometimes. Easy to learn, hard to master? Starcraft 2 is hard to learn, insanely hard to master. There is nothing easy about this game or RTS games in general (except C&C). There's a reason the genre has always been a niche. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On December 30 2014 05:32 DemigodcelpH wrote: SC2 isn't very mechanically challenging, and the skill ceiling is lower so you get lots of people all around the same level at the top. The game is also more snowbally and there's less comeback potential. Since there's less ways to showcase your skill in SC2 due to the simplified controls it also means there's more build order losses. In BW the skill ceiling and skill progression was so ridiculous that the rank 1 player could consistently beat the ranks 2-9 80% of the time. In SC2 it's more like anyone in the top 200 beat anyone in the top 200 any day. Which would technically mean that MVP's 70% winrate is worth MUCH more since he could maintain it despite how swingy the games are. Which is why its dumb to make these kinds of comparisons. | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
On December 30 2014 05:41 Thieving Magpie wrote: Which would technically mean that MVP's 70% winrate is worth MUCH more since he could maintain it despite how swingy the games are. Which is why its dumb to make these kinds of comparisons. There's nothing about MVP having a 70% win-rate under his accomplishments listing, for how long it was (important), and who it was against (important). Also whatever win-rate MVP had it was against mostly C-class players due to how SC2 was structured which is in contrast to bonjwas being distinguished for holding these stats against S-class players. For BW to get a shot at actually playing in a KESPA tournament you'd have to win a 126 player bo3 monthly tournament. Also for comparison Flash ended BW with above 70% win-rate in all matchups for all time (Mvp's all time win-rate is in the 50s) and he played BW longer than MvP played SC2. He also had the highest ELO of all time and broke the elo record six consecutive times. Jaedong is 19–3 on Katarina and was the top-1 Zerg player in the rank for 43 months and all of them straight. Savior dominated for the good part of a year and at one point went 12-0 in Bo3s vs Terrans that had 70-90% winrates in TvZ. Literally unstoppable. Most players like that in BW also had 80% winrates in their mirror matchups. These are the kind of accomplishments players did in BW, and they did them consistently. That's what SC2 generally lacks. Consistency. The game is volatile, mechanics aren't important because they're so simple, and the unit designs feature a lot of hard-counters. So you get a situation where the best player in SC2 one week can easily lose to B-class players next week. | ||
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
On December 28 2014 03:48 Friedobert wrote: MVP was a Bonjwa, also, savior wasn't brood war's first Bonjwa, it was IloveOov. OP calling for the removal of queuing is pretty much the sad Qlimax of a very one dimensional line of thoughts. for example, mechanics develop with playing, thus somebody that puts time in bw benefited just like someone who plays sc2, as you said. making the basic mechanics of the game easier was a step in the right direction by blizzard. beginners having it easier results in a bigger player base. sc2 is still in the Grrrrrr phase thanks to blizzards expansion policy. wait 5 years and your flash will come. 1. Boxer is a Bonjwa and came before iloveoov. 2. NaDa is a Bonjwa and came before iloveoov. 3. The "term" Bonjwa was created for savior. | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On December 30 2014 05:32 DemigodcelpH wrote: SC2 isn't very mechanically challenging, and the skill ceiling is lower so you get lots of people all around the same level at the top. The game is also more snowbally and there's less comeback potential. Since there's less ways to showcase your skill in SC2 due to the simplified controls it also means there's more build order losses. In BW the skill ceiling and skill progression was so ridiculous that the rank 1 player could consistently beat the ranks 2-9 80% of the time. In SC2 it's more like anyone in the top 200 beat anyone in the top 200 any day. Yet again , in sc2 99% of the players have mechanics that are blatantly pathetic compared to the ones of a top korean. 99% is up to something like high masters, but even a mid gm(eu) player can admit that there's a huge difference between him and an established progamer. Bw feels like it's much harder especially for a new player. Not being able to control multiple buildings and more than 12 units at a time was one of the most unbearable things when I played bw as a casual, and the fact that they changed it was one of the things that made me love sc2 at first. Maybe they should try to find a way to make the game more challenging at the highest levels, without making it so difficult for the newbies. That would help at increasing sc2's playerbase too. | ||
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sabas123
Netherlands3122 Posts
On December 30 2014 06:23 DemigodcelpH wrote: There's nothing about MVP having a 70% win-rate under his accomplishments listing, for how long it was (important), and who it was against (important). Also whatever win-rate MVP had it was against mostly C-class players due to how SC2 was structured which is in contrast to bonjwas being distinguished for holding these stats against S-class players. For BW to get a shot at actually playing in a KESPA tournament you'd have to win a 126 player bo3 monthly tournament. Also for comparison Flash ended BW with above 70% win-rate in all matchups for all time (Mvp's all time win-rate is in the 50s) and he played BW longer than MvP played SC2. He also had the highest ELO of all time and broke the elo record six consecutive times. Jaedong is 19–3 on Katarina and was the top-1 Zerg player in the rank for 43 months and all of them straight. Savior dominated for the good part of a year and at one point went 12-0 in Bo3s vs Terrans that had 70-90% winrates in TvZ. Literally unstoppable. Most players like that in BW also had 80% winrates in their mirror matchups. These are the kind of accomplishments players did in BW, and they did them consistently. That's what SC2 generally lacks. Consistency. The game is volatile, mechanics aren't important because they're so simple, and the unit designs feature a lot of hard-counters. So you get a situation where the best player in SC2 one week can easily lose to B-class players next week. Here are some stats from liquidpedia Flash: Flash holds the longest winning streak for both TvT (22 wins) and TvP (13 wins) in rated KeSPA matches. Flash was the top-ranked Terran player on KESPA from March 2008 through August 2009, and then from October 2009 to July 2012. Flash has the highest Elo rating record of all time. He broke the Elo record six consecutive times. Flash is the only player to have an Elo peak in the 2400s. Flash had a 12 game win streak in TvZ games, spanning from the start of Round 1 of the 09-10 Proleague until partway through Round 2. His streak was broken by Hyun in a Proleague match between MBCGame HERO and KT Rolster. Flash holds the highest KESPA Point record ever, with 4,292.5 points in September 2010. Flash is the first player in history to reach both individual league finals 3 times in a row. 457-180 (71.74%) winrate Jaedong: Lee Jae Dong has a first record on the longest winning streak in the MSL — 11 wins, the second are Lee Yoon Yeol (NaDa) and Lee Yong Ho (Flash) with 10 wins. Lee Jae Dong is the second player after Hong Jin Ho ([NC]...YellOw) to get into MSL Final without a loss. Hong Jin Ho has 7 wins in the KPGA Tour 1st, Lee Jae Dong has 10 wins in the NATE MSL. Lee Jae Dong is on 18 games winstreak vs. hite SPARKYZ (2008.10.04–current), two All-Kills and 5 Ace games included; overall record 23–5 (82.1%), 5–1 in Aces. He is extremely strong vs. hite’s Terrans: 12–2. Lee Jae Dong was the first progamer who played 200 games in Proleague (2010.03.16 vs. YellOw[ArnC]). 20-6 in bo5's 468–215 (68.5%) winrate Savior:+ Show Spoiler + here are some examples how the best players in sc2 did in bw MC 1-9 MVP 30-46 Nestea 11-21 | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On December 30 2014 07:13 sabas123 wrote: here are some examples how the best players in sc2 did in bw MC 1-9 MVP 30-46 Nestea 11-21 what's the reason to bring these up? I thought this thread wasn't supposed to become "which game is better"... | ||
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sibs
635 Posts
SC2 and BW are different games deal with it. Flash with all that APM and mechanics on BW has poor micro compared to other SC2 Terran's that never shined in BW, after over 1 year of playing SC2. | ||
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Rustug
1488 Posts
On December 30 2014 07:24 Ej_ wrote: what's the reason to bring these up? I thought this thread wasn't supposed to become "which game is better"... It's the ~ if you didn't get any results in BW your irrelevant ~ argument. Players can only grow and improve through BW, it's that simple. | ||
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SuperFanBoy
New Zealand1068 Posts
On December 28 2014 03:08 H0i wrote: MVP wasn't a bonjwa? ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YJZsMmkl.jpg) I think he definitely was a bonjwa. He dominated Wings of liberty. What was it like 4 GSL titles and 6 or 7 finals? I mean if thats not Bonjwa then what is? | ||
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