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On July 16 2014 02:43 Genome852 wrote:
Wait, WM will do full damage in its area of effect (rather than doing less damage at outer edges) AND retain shield damage bonus?
Even as a T player, that seems ridiculous against Protoss. I want the old WM, but this is 'balance' via sledgehammer rather than scalpel.
Maybe you've missed the "sledgehammer" Protoss has hit Terran over the head with the last 8 months. We need more aggressive changes. I disagree with you b/c I'd rather not have another incident like when Blizzard increased the tank attack speed by .000000002.
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I don't want to come off as a whiny zerg, but when hots came out I could not beat terrans who went biomine with ling bane muta. Even if I tried to bait mine shots or split my lings and banes up, the mines did so much damage that it only took 1 or 2 good hits out of the 6-8 mines planted to obliterate half my forces, then the bio runs in and wipes out everything, and then the parade death push began. If we're basically going back to that it's gonna be a bad time. I understand terrans are struggling right now but mines were just simply too strong before to deal with effectively. Add in the new hellbat timings that straight up kill lots of zergs and zvt will be uh...interesting to watch, maybe not so fun to play.
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I'm ok with the time warp nerf, but if the issue was terran crybabies, they used to whine before the mothership core even existed, so that won't be fixed.
User was warned for this post
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On July 16 2014 03:43 KingAlphard wrote:
I'm ok with the time warp nerf, but if the issue was terran crybabies, they used to whine before the mothership core even existed, so that won't be fixed.
Sad zealot thread. Go there.
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On July 16 2014 02:07 KatatoniK wrote:
10 second time warp? Blizzard pls, just make the damn thing researchable at the Twilight Council and leave it at it's current duration.
Actually this sounds like a fantastic idea. That way, you don't have to worry about Protoss being too strong until they get to the all-in or nothing phase.
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On July 16 2014 03:41 Gojira621 wrote:
I don't want to come off as a whiny zerg, but when hots came out I could not beat terrans who went biomine with ling bane muta. Even if I tried to bait mine shots or split my lings and banes up, the mines did so much damage that it only took 1 or 2 good hits out of the 6-8 mines planted to obliterate half my forces, then the bio runs in and wipes out everything, and then the parade death push began. If we're basically going back to that it's gonna be a bad time. I understand terrans are struggling right now but mines were just simply too strong before to deal with effectively. Add in the new hellbat timings that straight up kill lots of zergs and zvt will be uh...interesting to watch, maybe not so fun to play.
Don't worry, the second a Terran wins a tournament they will nerf them. That's the nature of Terran: For every one buff, they get two nerfs.
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On July 16 2014 03:38 KatatoniK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2014 03:12 beg wrote:On July 16 2014 03:06 Larkin wrote:On July 16 2014 02:42 beg wrote:
honestly,
isn't the real problem against protoss their multitude of unscoutable stupid aggressive builds? the majority of my TvPs i'm facing some sort of near unscoutable aggression.
on the contrary, i'm not having major problems in late game, except terran's army seems to be harder to control, but it's still fun.
the only thing that really pisses me off is how protoss can literally build no defensive units and still pin me to my base and make me guess which stupid shit is coming for me.
this patch won't do anything to improve my TvP experience I really don't see how the aggression is unscoutable unless Protoss hides tech structures somewhere on the map - and even then it isn't unscoutable, you just don't scout it. You have scans. Obviously you would rather not scan, but if you drop a money scan, see what's coming, you can defend accordingly. ...while protoss almost literally doesnt have to build defensive units. If a Protoss doesn't build any or very few defensive units early game PvT a decent stimmed Marine/Marauder force can kill them outright, even WITH Photon Overcharge. Stim absolutely destroys P armies and I've lost many games to Terran counter aggression when I've gone for Oracle or tried to poke. It's all in the scouting, note pylons, if you don't see 3 pylons when you scout with your reaper or whatever. Something somewhere is proxied, go look for it. If it's a Stargate, that's easy to hold, DT's? Easy to hold. Blink, however is the problem, as a Protoss I'll admit, early game blink attacks are dumb, they're dumb in PvP and they're even dumber in PvT. That's why time warp doesn't need a reduction it needs locking to Twilight Council research. One or the other, simple as imo.
see, you're a protoss. you dont know how this stuff feels as a terran.
yes, proxy stargate is easy to hold. yes, DT is easy to hold. but you have to scout it in time. in order to do that, you'll need 2 units scouting the map for proxy and even then there's a great chance you simply won't find the hidden tech in time.
on top of this, there's stuff like blink, proxy robo, 2base 4gate, etc etc.... all of them needing very different reactions.
it's simply not very enjoyable to play TvP like this.
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On July 16 2014 03:44 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2014 03:43 KingAlphard wrote:
I'm ok with the time warp nerf, but if the issue was terran crybabies, they used to whine before the mothership core even existed, so that won't be fixed. Sad zealot thread. Go there.
No, I actually said that I agree with the patch, unlike terran players who always have a reason to complain about everything.
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On July 16 2014 03:41 Gojira621 wrote:
I don't want to come off as a whiny zerg, but when hots came out I could not beat terrans who went biomine with ling bane muta. Even if I tried to bait mine shots or split my lings and banes up, the mines did so much damage that it only took 1 or 2 good hits out of the 6-8 mines planted to obliterate half my forces, then the bio runs in and wipes out everything, and then the parade death push began. If we're basically going back to that it's gonna be a bad time. I understand terrans are struggling right now but mines were just simply too strong before to deal with effectively. Add in the new hellbat timings that straight up kill lots of zergs and zvt will be uh...interesting to watch, maybe not so fun to play.
I have to second your feelings almost exactly. I've always been a fan of going ling/bane/muta, but with the new hellbat timings and reverting mines back to the way they were, I just keep feeling like zerg keeps getting pushed into making roaches. Now, roaches aren't the worst unit ever, but they're probably the most boring. I don't know, maybe it's also because I'm a scrub diamond player and don't know anything. 
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On July 16 2014 03:41 Gojira621 wrote:
I don't want to come off as a whiny zerg, but when hots came out I could not beat terrans who went biomine with ling bane muta. Even if I tried to bait mine shots or split my lings and banes up, the mines did so much damage that it only took 1 or 2 good hits out of the 6-8 mines planted to obliterate half my forces, then the bio runs in and wipes out everything, and then the parade death push began. If we're basically going back to that it's gonna be a bad time. I understand terrans are struggling right now but mines were just simply too strong before to deal with effectively. Add in the new hellbat timings that straight up kill lots of zergs and zvt will be uh...interesting to watch, maybe not so fun to play.
Welcome to SC2 from a Terran's perspective. If I am not super careful, 6-8 banes are enough to obliterate half my forces too.
On July 16 2014 03:48 KingAlphard wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2014 03:44 plogamer wrote:On July 16 2014 03:43 KingAlphard wrote:
I'm ok with the time warp nerf, but if the issue was terran crybabies, they used to whine before the mothership core even existed, so that won't be fixed. Sad zealot thread. Go there. No, I actually said that I agree with the patch, unlike terran players who always have a reason to complain about everything.
Not all Terran players are the same, but I mean do I have to play Captain Obvious and explain this?
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On July 16 2014 03:48 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2014 03:38 KatatoniK wrote:On July 16 2014 03:12 beg wrote:On July 16 2014 03:06 Larkin wrote:On July 16 2014 02:42 beg wrote:
honestly,
isn't the real problem against protoss their multitude of unscoutable stupid aggressive builds? the majority of my TvPs i'm facing some sort of near unscoutable aggression.
on the contrary, i'm not having major problems in late game, except terran's army seems to be harder to control, but it's still fun.
the only thing that really pisses me off is how protoss can literally build no defensive units and still pin me to my base and make me guess which stupid shit is coming for me.
this patch won't do anything to improve my TvP experience I really don't see how the aggression is unscoutable unless Protoss hides tech structures somewhere on the map - and even then it isn't unscoutable, you just don't scout it. You have scans. Obviously you would rather not scan, but if you drop a money scan, see what's coming, you can defend accordingly. ...while protoss almost literally doesnt have to build defensive units. If a Protoss doesn't build any or very few defensive units early game PvT a decent stimmed Marine/Marauder force can kill them outright, even WITH Photon Overcharge. Stim absolutely destroys P armies and I've lost many games to Terran counter aggression when I've gone for Oracle or tried to poke. It's all in the scouting, note pylons, if you don't see 3 pylons when you scout with your reaper or whatever. Something somewhere is proxied, go look for it. If it's a Stargate, that's easy to hold, DT's? Easy to hold. Blink, however is the problem, as a Protoss I'll admit, early game blink attacks are dumb, they're dumb in PvP and they're even dumber in PvT. That's why time warp doesn't need a reduction it needs locking to Twilight Council research. One or the other, simple as imo. see, you're a protoss. you dont know how this stuff feels as a terran. yes, proxy stargate is easy to hold. yes, DT is easy to hold. but you have to scout it in time. in order to do that, you'll need 2 units scouting the map for proxy and even then there's a great chance you simply won't find the hidden tech in time. on top of this, there's stuff like blink, proxy robo, 2base 4gate, etc etc.... all of them needing very different reactions. it's simply not very enjoyable to play TvP like this.
And where is the "insta-death" button for Terran? No detection for proxy DT...insta-death. No turrets for proxy oracle...insta-death. No bunkers for blink all-in...insta-death. Less than 3 bunkers for 2 base immortal all-in...insta-death. The list goes on (like you said etc etc). All of which are very easy to execute. Why can't we have an insta-death button for TvP.
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On July 16 2014 03:48 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2014 03:38 KatatoniK wrote:On July 16 2014 03:12 beg wrote:On July 16 2014 03:06 Larkin wrote:On July 16 2014 02:42 beg wrote:
honestly,
isn't the real problem against protoss their multitude of unscoutable stupid aggressive builds? the majority of my TvPs i'm facing some sort of near unscoutable aggression.
on the contrary, i'm not having major problems in late game, except terran's army seems to be harder to control, but it's still fun.
the only thing that really pisses me off is how protoss can literally build no defensive units and still pin me to my base and make me guess which stupid shit is coming for me.
this patch won't do anything to improve my TvP experience I really don't see how the aggression is unscoutable unless Protoss hides tech structures somewhere on the map - and even then it isn't unscoutable, you just don't scout it. You have scans. Obviously you would rather not scan, but if you drop a money scan, see what's coming, you can defend accordingly. ...while protoss almost literally doesnt have to build defensive units. If a Protoss doesn't build any or very few defensive units early game PvT a decent stimmed Marine/Marauder force can kill them outright, even WITH Photon Overcharge. Stim absolutely destroys P armies and I've lost many games to Terran counter aggression when I've gone for Oracle or tried to poke. It's all in the scouting, note pylons, if you don't see 3 pylons when you scout with your reaper or whatever. Something somewhere is proxied, go look for it. If it's a Stargate, that's easy to hold, DT's? Easy to hold. Blink, however is the problem, as a Protoss I'll admit, early game blink attacks are dumb, they're dumb in PvP and they're even dumber in PvT. That's why time warp doesn't need a reduction it needs locking to Twilight Council research. One or the other, simple as imo. see, you're a protoss. you dont know how this stuff feels as a terran. yes, proxy stargate is easy to hold. yes, DT is easy to hold. but you have to scout it in time. in order to do that, you'll need 2 units scouting the map for proxy and even then there's a great chance you simply won't find the hidden tech in time. on top of this, there's stuff like blink, proxy robo, 2base 4gate, etc etc.... all of them needing very different reactions. it's simply not very enjoyable to play TvP like this.
Seriously, Protoss players know how that feels. That's exactly what we experienced early on in WoL. The only difference everybody sucked compared to now.
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The funny thing is, yes zerg just A-moves... Yes thats true, thats because we can't micro lol.
You try stuttersteping your zerglings away from the marines and mines while splitting your lings. Big help that will do you, you see the zerglings are melee. You want Z to micro, I wouldn't mind that at all, then give us ranged units that aren't totally trashed in both matchups.
Forcing Z to micro lings more than is already done with flanks and surrounds is just silly, what are we supposed to do, spread them out and hod position while they stares the marines down? Bound to do tons of damage I'm sure.
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A 10 second Time Warp is worth 100 energy? I think it's reasonable to go back to 75 here. Reasonably nerfing is one thing, nerfing something so that it's not viable is another. IMO Blizzard has often made this mistake.
I personally believe that when TvZ was at its most balanced in HotS was before the Mine nerf but after the Overseer buff. So now it's going back to that stage and I think that's great. I'm not sure how the new Hellbat will fit into this picture. Of course Terran will probably get a huge boost in TvZ win rate for a little while, but what will it look like once things stabilize is another story.
As for the Shield damage splash, keep in mind: even before Mine is nerfed, the defensive fast Forge opening has already proved to be very effective against Drop openings. Yes this will probably kill the 0 detection Blink builds, but frankly those builds are way too outrageous, nobody will miss them. Yes this will be even more effective against mass Zealots, but Templar openings are pretty much dead anyways.
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On July 16 2014 03:52 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2014 03:41 Gojira621 wrote:
I don't want to come off as a whiny zerg, but when hots came out I could not beat terrans who went biomine with ling bane muta. Even if I tried to bait mine shots or split my lings and banes up, the mines did so much damage that it only took 1 or 2 good hits out of the 6-8 mines planted to obliterate half my forces, then the bio runs in and wipes out everything, and then the parade death push began. If we're basically going back to that it's gonna be a bad time. I understand terrans are struggling right now but mines were just simply too strong before to deal with effectively. Add in the new hellbat timings that straight up kill lots of zergs and zvt will be uh...interesting to watch, maybe not so fun to play. Welcome to SC2 from a Terran's perspective. If I am not super careful, 6-8 banes are enough to obliterate half my forces too.
No. The choice is yours whether you want to have to be careful against banelings.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On July 16 2014 04:00 Shuffleblade wrote:
The funny thing is, yes zerg just A-moves... Yes thats true, thats because we can't micro lol.
You try stuttersteping your zerglings away from the marines and mines while splitting your lings. Big help that will do you, you see the zerglings are melee. You want Z to micro, I wouldn't mind that at all, then give us ranged units that aren't totally trashed in both matchups.
Forcing Z to micro lings more than is already done with flanks and surrounds is just silly, what are we supposed to do, spread them out and hod position while they stares the marines down? Bound to do tons of damage I'm sure.
Many top zergs have figured out how to trigger mine shots with a well spread, small force. You also often see more friendly fire damage than what has happened to the zerg.
I guess you could put lings on hold position and see how that goes?
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On July 16 2014 04:00 Shuffleblade wrote:
The funny thing is, yes zerg just A-moves... Yes thats true, thats because we can't micro lol.
You try stuttersteping your zerglings away from the marines and mines while splitting your lings. Big help that will do you, you see the zerglings are melee. You want Z to micro, I wouldn't mind that at all, then give us ranged units that aren't totally trashed in both matchups.
Forcing Z to micro lings more than is already done with flanks and surrounds is just silly, what are we supposed to do, spread them out and hod position while they stares the marines down? Bound to do tons of damage I'm sure.
Did you see the game where Scarlett just a-move shit tons of banes from 1 direction over Bomber? What flank was there?
Did you also see some of Jaedong's ling micro against the mines? Yeah, those were fucking awesome.
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On July 16 2014 04:00 Shuffleblade wrote:
The funny thing is, yes zerg just A-moves... Yes thats true, thats because we can't micro lol.
You try stuttersteping your zerglings away from the marines and mines while splitting your lings. Big help that will do you, you see the zerglings are melee. You want Z to micro, I wouldn't mind that at all, then give us ranged units that aren't totally trashed in both matchups.
Forcing Z to micro lings more than is already done with flanks and surrounds is just silly, what are we supposed to do, spread them out and hod position while they stares the marines down? Bound to do tons of damage I'm sure.
Considering we saw a lot of roaches hydras compositions recently (For example bomber vs violet game 4, or even against protoss where roaches hydras are a viable option in early-mid game), what you are trying to say doesn't really make sense.
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On July 16 2014 04:00 Shuffleblade wrote:
The funny thing is, yes zerg just A-moves... Yes thats true, thats because we can't micro lol.
You try stuttersteping your zerglings away from the marines and mines while splitting your lings. Big help that will do you, you see the zerglings are melee. You want Z to micro, I wouldn't mind that at all, then give us ranged units that aren't totally trashed in both matchups.
Forcing Z to micro lings more than is already done with flanks and surrounds is just silly, what are we supposed to do, spread them out and hod position while they stares the marines down? Bound to do tons of damage I'm sure.
why don't you try to learn to micro your lings then? it adds excitement and skill to your game. Remember why brood war was more exciting than sc2 is because of the skill and control of BW players. Now if we would put that on sc2 then it would be awesome
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On July 16 2014 04:04 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2014 03:52 plogamer wrote:On July 16 2014 03:41 Gojira621 wrote:
I don't want to come off as a whiny zerg, but when hots came out I could not beat terrans who went biomine with ling bane muta. Even if I tried to bait mine shots or split my lings and banes up, the mines did so much damage that it only took 1 or 2 good hits out of the 6-8 mines planted to obliterate half my forces, then the bio runs in and wipes out everything, and then the parade death push began. If we're basically going back to that it's gonna be a bad time. I understand terrans are struggling right now but mines were just simply too strong before to deal with effectively. Add in the new hellbat timings that straight up kill lots of zergs and zvt will be uh...interesting to watch, maybe not so fun to play. Welcome to SC2 from a Terran's perspective. If I am not super careful, 6-8 banes are enough to obliterate half my forces too. No. The choice is yours whether you want to have to be careful against banelings. + Show Spoiler +
Are you joking? And then I have to worry about not being able to put any real pressure without committing a slow-moving, slow-producing, and expensive army.
Then if you hate mines, the choice is yours to play Roach/Hydra. Good luck with drops.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.cheatmasters.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/sc2_mech.jpg)
