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On July 21 2014 06:44 Faust852 wrote:
It's funny because people say they find 4M boring after a while, and while nothing change, almost everyone still agree that TvZ is the best match up so far. It's always been. Solar vs Taeja was an awesome series and guess what, Taeja went 4M every time. Same vs JD.
And almost everyone that says so will say the same about any other periode of SC2's existance. Marine/Tank, Mech, BL/Infestor, 4M, Ling/Bling/Muta, Ling/Ultra/Infestor... Times are changing but the interactions are just very solid regardless of the chosen strategies.
Hence, the things to improve are the available strategies (and the balance of the matchup).
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Buffing one strategy doesn't make other less viable. Mech is rarely fun the watch (some exception but almost every TvZ bio are regarded as great games).
And I think making the 4M style stronger will also lead at a better mech play and biomech transition style too.
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On July 21 2014 06:58 Faust852 wrote:
Buffing one strategy doesn't make other less viable. Mech is rarely fun the watch (some exception but almost every TvZ bio are regarded as great games).
And I think making the 4M style stronger will also lead at a better mech play and biomech transition style too.
Is that because the units move around on the screen less? Meh-k to me seems harder to pull off. Positioning and working out how to get your opp out of position seems much more difficult with meh-k, and thus should be seen as more satisfying when it works. Why do people feel meh-k is less fun?
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just curious why do so many ppl hate on "parade push"?
how else is terran supposed 2 reinforce their armies??
we don't have warp in or lings that speed across......so we have to walk
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Buffing one strategy doesn't make other less viable - given those strategies were strong enough for a balanced matchup to begin with, what it seems like they are not.
Bio is rarely fun the watch (some exception but almost every TvZ Mech are regarded as great games).
No clue how WMs should help Mech in TvZ, they just don't fill any purpose when you already have tanks and thors and your goal is a 180supply ravenfleet. And I doubt anybody will open 3fac Tanks/Thors to go into bio/mine.
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On July 21 2014 07:28 Socup wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 06:58 Faust852 wrote:
Buffing one strategy doesn't make other less viable. Mech is rarely fun the watch (some exception but almost every TvZ bio are regarded as great games).
And I think making the 4M style stronger will also lead at a better mech play and biomech transition style too. Is that because the units move around on the screen less? Meh-k to me seems harder to pull off. Positioning and working out how to get your opp out of position seems much more difficult with meh-k, and thus should be seen as more satisfying when it works. Why do people feel meh-k is less fun?
Because it is boring to watcch at every level but top korean level like Flash. When Morrow or Happy play mech, it's campfest for 30min wuth 20 ravens.
I play mech every tvz for years now, I know how it can be boring as fuck when there is SH in play too.
On July 21 2014 07:33 Big J wrote:
Buffing one strategy doesn't make other less viable - given those strategies were strong enough for a balanced matchup to begin with, what it seems like they are not.
Bio is rarely fun the watch (some exception but almost every TvZ Mech are regarded as great games).
No clue how WMs should help Mech in TvZ, they just don't fill any purpose when you already have tanks and thors and your goal is a 180supply ravenfleet. And I doubt anybody will open 3fac Tanks/Thors to go into bio/mine.
You misquoted me, I didn't say that.
And WMs buff will enforce mech, thus making mech rarer, and so more surprising.
And nothing can predict that biomech will be dead. You are not an overseer.
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Watching raven vs swarm host is about as fun as watching paint dry.
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On July 21 2014 07:48 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 07:33 Big J wrote:
Buffing one strategy doesn't make other less viable - given those strategies were strong enough for a balanced matchup to begin with, what it seems like they are not.
Bio is rarely fun the watch (some exception but almost every TvZ Mech are regarded as great games).
No clue how WMs should help Mech in TvZ, they just don't fill any purpose when you already have tanks and thors and your goal is a 180supply ravenfleet. And I doubt anybody will open 3fac Tanks/Thors to go into bio/mine. You misquoted me, I didn't say that. And WMs buff will enforce mech, thus making mech rarer, and so more surprising. And nothing can predict that biomech will be dead. You are not an overseer.
Don't know where I misquoted you. I didn't even put anything in quotes...
Making Mech rarer? Are you kidding me? The only way to make Mech rarer than it is right now is if noone ever plays it.
And it's pretty easy to predict that biomech will be dead. It is already dead and the patch does nothing for it...
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On July 21 2014 08:11 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 07:48 Faust852 wrote:On July 21 2014 07:33 Big J wrote:
Buffing one strategy doesn't make other less viable - given those strategies were strong enough for a balanced matchup to begin with, what it seems like they are not.
Bio is rarely fun the watch (some exception but almost every TvZ Mech are regarded as great games).
No clue how WMs should help Mech in TvZ, they just don't fill any purpose when you already have tanks and thors and your goal is a 180supply ravenfleet. And I doubt anybody will open 3fac Tanks/Thors to go into bio/mine. You misquoted me, I didn't say that. And WMs buff will enforce mech, thus making mech rarer, and so more surprising. And nothing can predict that biomech will be dead. You are not an overseer. Don't know where I misquoted you. I didn't even put anything in quotes... Making Mech rarer? Are you kidding me? The only way to make Mech rarer than it is right now is if noone ever plays it. And it's pretty easy to predict that biomech will be dead. It is already dead and the patch does nothing for it...
Mech will probably always be rare at korean level. It always has even when mech was super popular in Europe.
Last year, players like Bunny and Happy were going mech every fucking game in TvT and TvZ and korean always went bio. I don't know why but they don't like mech.
And saying that mech is rare isn't really true since i'm pretty sure it represents a good percentage of play at amateur level. It's just the koreans.
And about biomech, I think it went dead because it sucked in transition once it was figured out, but with stronger WM, there is no reason this style can't become popular again.
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On July 21 2014 07:33 Big J wrote:
Bio is rarely fun the watch (some exception but almost every TvZ Mech are regarded as great games).
Bio TvZ make up 10 out of the top 15 games of 2013 on TL. It's fine to have a contrary subjective preference, but don't delude yourself into thinking this is a majority view.
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On July 21 2014 08:15 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 08:11 Big J wrote:On July 21 2014 07:48 Faust852 wrote:On July 21 2014 07:33 Big J wrote:
Buffing one strategy doesn't make other less viable - given those strategies were strong enough for a balanced matchup to begin with, what it seems like they are not.
Bio is rarely fun the watch (some exception but almost every TvZ Mech are regarded as great games).
No clue how WMs should help Mech in TvZ, they just don't fill any purpose when you already have tanks and thors and your goal is a 180supply ravenfleet. And I doubt anybody will open 3fac Tanks/Thors to go into bio/mine. You misquoted me, I didn't say that. And WMs buff will enforce mech, thus making mech rarer, and so more surprising. And nothing can predict that biomech will be dead. You are not an overseer. Don't know where I misquoted you. I didn't even put anything in quotes... Making Mech rarer? Are you kidding me? The only way to make Mech rarer than it is right now is if noone ever plays it. And it's pretty easy to predict that biomech will be dead. It is already dead and the patch does nothing for it... Mech will probably always be rare at korean level. It always has even when mech was super popular in Europe. Last year, players like Bunny and Happy were going mech every fucking game in TvT and TvZ and korean always went bio. I don't know why but they don't like mech. And saying that mech is rare isn't really true since i'm pretty sure it represents a good percentage of play at amateur level. It's just the koreans.And about biomech, I think it went dead because it sucked in transition once it was figured out, but with stronger WM, there is no reason this style can't become popular again.
That's just not true, at least from my personal experience.
When I play Zerg, most Terrans go Bio against me.
When I play Terran (and usually Mech), most Zergs that miss the scout on it play as if they were up against bio - because that's what most people do.
In TvT, unless it is a really good map for Mech, most people seem to go bio against me.
These "everyone on the ladder does it" arguments are just not true. People play bio, and it makes sense, because it is better. Which is the exact same reason why the Koreans play it. (Add to that that the Koreans are awefully slow at developing defensive playstyles)
The European scene seems to play these kind of defensive styles overproportionally often, that is true. I can't tell you why, my guess is, that the European metagame has always been more about defending than attacking and because it is one of the only possibilities to get attention/viewers. If you play like the Koreans, you are just going to be the same standard player, just a little worse. If you play Mech, you can become the Panzergeneral, the most-hated streamer in the community, or the one that even goes Mech against Protoss.
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On July 21 2014 08:23 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 07:33 Big J wrote:
Bio is rarely fun the watch (some exception but almost every TvZ Mech are regarded as great games). Bio TvZ make up 10 out of the top 15 games of 2013 on TL. It's fine to have a contrary subjective preference, but don't delude yourself into thinking this is a majority view.
Hm, well that wasn't actually my point. I like watching bio TvZs.
It's just a plainly stupid argument. Nearly every Korean Mech game gets very high ratings and in general it's extremely subjective what you like. Just like this "top games of ..." lists. (e.g. I found INnoVation vs Taeja a very entertaining, but pretty lowlevel game, given how often those players fucked up. It made for an entertaining slugfest, but objectively, it included lots and lots of lowlevel mistakes which made it hard to really praise the game for the shown skill)
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On July 21 2014 08:23 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 07:33 Big J wrote:
Bio is rarely fun the watch (some exception but almost every TvZ Mech are regarded as great games). Bio TvZ make up 10 out of the top 15 games of 2013 on TL. It's fine to have a contrary subjective preference, but don't delude yourself into thinking this is a majority view.
I think what he's driving at is that it's not bio that makes the game look good or exciting, but how the game itself is played. The units matter less. I bet you a gorillion dollars that if people developed mech strats that took advantage of the strengths of mech to make multi-prong attacks somehow, then mech would be as "exciting".
On July 21 2014 08:11 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 07:48 Faust852 wrote:On July 21 2014 07:33 Big J wrote:
Buffing one strategy doesn't make other less viable - given those strategies were strong enough for a balanced matchup to begin with, what it seems like they are not.
Bio is rarely fun the watch (some exception but almost every TvZ Mech are regarded as great games).
No clue how WMs should help Mech in TvZ, they just don't fill any purpose when you already have tanks and thors and your goal is a 180supply ravenfleet. And I doubt anybody will open 3fac Tanks/Thors to go into bio/mine. You misquoted me, I didn't say that. And WMs buff will enforce mech, thus making mech rarer, and so more surprising. And nothing can predict that biomech will be dead. You are not an overseer. Don't know where I misquoted you. I didn't even put anything in quotes... Making Mech rarer? Are you kidding me? The only way to make Mech rarer than it is right now is if noone ever plays it. And it's pretty easy to predict that biomech will be dead. It is already dead and the patch does nothing for it...
Makes meh-k rarer because 4M is easy to do. Biomech is all about upgrades in the MU and positioning. You know how many times I kill Z's by sticking vikings, tanks, and thors in front to soak up banes and the marines on stim to assist and then just roll right over them after the initial Z force is dead?
On July 21 2014 07:32 JIJI_ wrote:
just curious why do so many ppl hate on "parade push"?
how else is terran supposed 2 reinforce their armies??
we don't have warp in or lings that speed across......so we have to walk
Got a chuckle. I think they want T to wait until they ball up again and then send their whole army after you've have enough time to remake yours.
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On July 21 2014 08:40 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 08:23 pure.Wasted wrote:On July 21 2014 07:33 Big J wrote:
Bio is rarely fun the watch (some exception but almost every TvZ Mech are regarded as great games). Bio TvZ make up 10 out of the top 15 games of 2013 on TL. It's fine to have a contrary subjective preference, but don't delude yourself into thinking this is a majority view. Hm, well that wasn't actually my point. I like watching bio TvZs. It's just a plainly stupid argument. Nearly every Korean Mech game gets very high ratings and in general it's extremely subjective what you like. Just like this "top games of ..." lists. (e.g. I found INnoVation vs Taeja a very entertaining, but pretty lowlevel game, given how often those players fucked up. It made for an entertaining slugfest, but objectively, it included lots and lots of lowlevel mistakes which made it hard to really praise the game for the shown skill)
Oh, sorry. I took your post at face value when jumping into the conversation. Clearly that was a mistake!
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On July 21 2014 07:48 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 07:28 Socup wrote:On July 21 2014 06:58 Faust852 wrote:
Buffing one strategy doesn't make other less viable. Mech is rarely fun the watch (some exception but almost every TvZ bio are regarded as great games).
And I think making the 4M style stronger will also lead at a better mech play and biomech transition style too. Is that because the units move around on the screen less? Meh-k to me seems harder to pull off. Positioning and working out how to get your opp out of position seems much more difficult with meh-k, and thus should be seen as more satisfying when it works. Why do people feel meh-k is less fun? Because it is boring to watcch at every level but top korean level like Flash. When Morrow or Happy play mech, it's campfest for 30min wuth 20 ravens. I play mech every tvz for years now, I know how it can be boring as fuck when there is SH in play too. Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 07:33 Big J wrote:
Buffing one strategy doesn't make other less viable - given those strategies were strong enough for a balanced matchup to begin with, what it seems like they are not.
Bio is rarely fun the watch (some exception but almost every TvZ Mech are regarded as great games).
No clue how WMs should help Mech in TvZ, they just don't fill any purpose when you already have tanks and thors and your goal is a 180supply ravenfleet. And I doubt anybody will open 3fac Tanks/Thors to go into bio/mine. You misquoted me, I didn't say that. And WMs buff will enforce mech, thus making mech rarer, and so more surprising. And nothing can predict that biomech will be dead. You are not an overseer.
Not sure if you even watched mech games recently from Koreans............Every single one of them have been the most entertaining games from a Terran in a very long time. It's only peoples opinions, and a strat should not be neglected because a few people on twitch tv find it boring to watch.
The way Koreans play Mech is action packed, harassing all game, tank fire everywhere, even if the games do last longer, recent mech games have been far more entertaining than standard bio play.
Reverting the old WM is not going to help mech........it's going to make Terrans mid game push to the zerg 4th base stronger for bio parade pushes like we saw at the start of HOTS. Be prepared to see good Terrans not even allow Zerg to reach hive on some maps, it's going to be micro wars between lair tech zerg vs 4MM.
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Mech isn't just exciting to watch on terran side, there are roach runbys, swarmhost pressure while muta harassing and picking things off with viper help
Only Koreans can produce high level mech games sadly.
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On July 21 2014 09:28 LingBlingBling wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2014 07:48 Faust852 wrote:On July 21 2014 07:28 Socup wrote:On July 21 2014 06:58 Faust852 wrote:
Buffing one strategy doesn't make other less viable. Mech is rarely fun the watch (some exception but almost every TvZ bio are regarded as great games).
And I think making the 4M style stronger will also lead at a better mech play and biomech transition style too. Is that because the units move around on the screen less? Meh-k to me seems harder to pull off. Positioning and working out how to get your opp out of position seems much more difficult with meh-k, and thus should be seen as more satisfying when it works. Why do people feel meh-k is less fun? Because it is boring to watcch at every level but top korean level like Flash. When Morrow or Happy play mech, it's campfest for 30min wuth 20 ravens. I play mech every tvz for years now, I know how it can be boring as fuck when there is SH in play too. On July 21 2014 07:33 Big J wrote:
Buffing one strategy doesn't make other less viable - given those strategies were strong enough for a balanced matchup to begin with, what it seems like they are not.
Bio is rarely fun the watch (some exception but almost every TvZ Mech are regarded as great games).
No clue how WMs should help Mech in TvZ, they just don't fill any purpose when you already have tanks and thors and your goal is a 180supply ravenfleet. And I doubt anybody will open 3fac Tanks/Thors to go into bio/mine. You misquoted me, I didn't say that. And WMs buff will enforce mech, thus making mech rarer, and so more surprising. And nothing can predict that biomech will be dead. You are not an overseer. Not sure if you even watched mech games recently from Koreans............Every single one of them have been the most entertaining games from a Terran in a very long time. It's only peoples opinions, and a strat should not be neglected because a few people on twitch tv find it boring to watch. The way Koreans play Mech is action packed, harassing all game, tank fire everywhere, even if the games do last longer, recent mech games have been far more entertaining than standard bio play. Reverting the old WM is not going to help mech........it's going to make Terrans mid game push to the zerg 4th base stronger for bio parade pushes like we saw at the start of HOTS. Be prepared to see good Terrans not even allow Zerg to reach hive on some maps, it's going to be micro wars between lair tech zerg vs 4MM.
Because it is boring to watch at every level but top korean level like Flash.
And even so, when you watch games like Byul vs Keen... Meh
And I like mech usually, I watch every mech pro game I can since I play mech in ladder myself.
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I don't see why photon overcharge doesn't get nerfed. Toss players will claim it keeps 4 gate PvP at bay, but at this point you have to wonder whether the benefit of balancing TvP is worth the cost of more 4 gates in PvP.
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On July 21 2014 09:33 ETisME wrote:
Mech isn't just exciting to watch on terran side, there are roach runbys, swarmhost pressure while muta harassing and picking things off with viper help
Only Koreans can produce high level mech games sadly.
I'd go so far as to say mech is more fun to watch from the Zerg side, apart from the novelty value of seeing Siege Tanks blow stuff the fuck up. Mech just doesn't have a synergetic, highly microable, multi-task rewarding unit like the Vulture to create those amazing plays. If Vultures didn't exist in BW, mech would be boring as hell there, too.
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Here are things which I would like to see to help late game TvP:
1) Change stim from 50% dps increase to 100% dps increase. Stim in brood war doubled marine dps and it should be that way.
2) Increase medivac heal from 9 hps to 15 hps, like that the upgrade they had in the beta.
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EPT
