EPTBalance Test Map Update Incoming - July 15 - Page 19
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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Maniak_
France305 Posts
On July 18 2014 21:08 Faust852 wrote: If you reduce the radius from 1,75 to 1,5, the WM will be utter shit in both TvP and TvZ. WM already look very few probes per hit, imagine with a shorter radius. Sure, because 40 damage over the entire splash area is negligible. Did you want one 75/25 unit to be able to clean up an entire mineral line? You'll already be able to potentially clean up a lot of it with 2. No to mention the dozens of lings/banes that will once again be vaporized by random shots. Back to one year ago, yay, tvz was *so* fun to watch, I can't wait... Not to say that nothing should be done for the current situation, but going back to TvZ after the release of HotS? Are they counting on zerg players whining less than terrans over the next months? Funny how 'fixing' TvP implies shitting all over zergs, who won just as few tournaments as terrans... | ||
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Salient
United States876 Posts
On July 18 2014 17:37 [PkF] Wire wrote: 40 (+40) needs to be adjusted in terms of shields damage. The original widow mine was a powerful unit. No one would have suggested giving it +40 bonus damage against shields. That buff only made sense in some way after the mine had been nerfed to oblivion. The bonus damage versus shields is gratuitous overkill once the widow mine is restored to its original statistics. The balance test map has WMs as 75 mineral units that do more damage to Protoss units than Psy Storm. The damage is instant (unlike Psy Storm), and WMs can be reactored at 6:00 (compared to massively expensive and much later Tier 3 Psy Storm). It's pretty crazy. | ||
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Maniak_
France305 Posts
On July 18 2014 21:40 SatedSC2 wrote: This post makes way more sense than I thought it would having read the first sentence... Seems to me the first sentence is on point. How many games have we seen where a terran stays alive for a *long* time, and even wins, after getting beaten down to one base, after losing most of his scvs, but still being able to pump out 15/16 marines at a time with mules and being able to stand up to an opponent on 4/5 bases (at least when he's zerg)? The issue is not that mech is crap so bio is the only choice. It's rather that bio is *so* good because of marines that buffing anything else would be far too strong when adding marines to the mix. By all means, buff everything terran has to make it more viable. But nerf marines in exchange so that there's an actual choice other than building the same 50 mineral unit all game long as the main army force. Then again, the one thing blizzard said at the first blizzcon after WoL that's still true now, is that they didn't dare nerf the marine in fear of getting assaulted by angry terrans everywhere. I'd love to see terrans getting nerfs for the marine, a cooldown for mules and buffs *everywhere* else to compensate (except mines. favor units that require skill instead of luck, please :/). | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On July 18 2014 21:58 Maniak_ wrote: Seems to me the first sentence is on point. How many games have we seen where a terran stays alive for a *long* time, and even wins, after getting beaten down to one base, after losing most of his scvs, but still being able to pump out 15/16 marines at a time with mules and being able to stand up to an opponent on 4/5 bases (at least when he's zerg)? The issue is not that mech is crap so bio is the only choice. It's rather that bio is *so* good because of marines that buffing anything else would be far too strong when adding marines to the mix. By all means, buff everything terran has to make it more viable. But nerf marines in exchange so that there's an actual choice other than building the same 50 mineral unit all game long as the main army force. Then again, the one thing blizzard said at the first blizzcon after WoL that's still true now, is that they didn't dare nerf the marine in fear of getting assaulted by angry terrans everywhere. I'd love to see terrans getting nerfs for the marine, a cooldown for mules and buffs *everywhere* else to compensate (except mines. favor units that require skill instead of luck, please :/). yes its spot on and a lot of people said this over the years but i dont think blizz will change the marine and buff other T units. they wont even consider this in LotV sadly. maybe something like removing combat shield would already be enough of a nerf, maybe with a lesser healing rate of medivacs (make medivacs heal % of max hp instead of flat hp so that marauders arent nerfed). after that just buff stuff like tanks (flat out dmg buffs or lategame upgrade etc.) and some other T lategame units. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24212 Posts
On July 18 2014 21:08 Faust852 wrote: If you reduce the radius from 1,75 to 1,5, the WM will be utter shit in both TvP and TvZ. WM already look very few probes per hit, imagine with a shorter radius. You can't be serious. It certainly won't be overpowered, but it certainly won't be "utter shit". I refer to a subsequent post : On July 18 2014 21:48 Salient wrote: The original widow mine was a powerful unit. No one would have suggested giving it +40 bonus damage against shields. That buff only made sense in some way after the mine had been nerfed to oblivion. The bonus damage versus shields is gratuitous overkill once the widow mine is restored to its original statistics. The balance test map has WMs as 75 mineral units that do more damage to Protoss units than Psy Storm. The damage is instant (unlike Psy Storm), and WMs can be reactored at 6:00 (compared to massively expensive and much later Tier 3 Psy Storm). It's pretty crazy. Yes, 80 instant damage, even in short range and dodgeable, seems totally barmy to me. I'm all for a 1.75 radius for the mine, though I admit I'd be afraid of a too violent balance shift in TvZ, but not with a full +40 shields. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On July 18 2014 22:38 [PkF] Wire wrote: You can't be serious. It certainly won't be overpowered, but it certainly won't be "utter shit". I refer to a subsequent post : Yes, 80 instant damage, even in short range and dodgeable, seems totally barmy to me. I'm all for a 1.75 radius for the mine, though I admit I'd be afraid of a too violent balance shift in TvZ, but not with a full +40 shields. Once again, it is not instant damage. You have to burrow it, and then there is 2s of charging. It's more than a storm that is instant casted and last 4s. And you can cast 2 storms with a HT, and with 2 HT, you have 4 storms, and one archon. And a WM become useless for 40s after it hits. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24212 Posts
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ETisME
12479 Posts
And you can't micro out from a shot, every micro is done pre engagement, sniping mines with muta and keep poking until you think you have enough. A lot of engagement micro from terran is pre split and poking, burrow and reburrow mines. That's not increasing zerg micro, because you technically cannot split out from a mine shot in an engagement. They need to somehow fix this to be a more dynamic micro during engagement because 4m is basically splash everything to death and every engagement lasts less than 5 seconds maximum. There are just lots of very short everything dies engagements | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
They will be strong against Protoss players that a-moves Zealots into mine fields, but that is the same as a-moving marines into banelings. | ||
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Swisslink
2954 Posts
1st: Terran dominates Zerg, Blizzard doesn't do anything -> Zerg gets used to the Widow Mines -> Widow Mines get nerfed 2nd: Zerg dominates Terran -> Terrans get used to it and win more often -> Widow Mines get buffed? Dunno if I like that approach xD | ||
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Maniak_
France305 Posts
On July 18 2014 22:53 ETisME wrote: Mine shots being a spell is close to hellbats being biological on the scale of the most stupid things in SC2.The problem with widow mine is that it ignores upgrades. And you can't micro out from a shot, every micro is done pre engagement, sniping mines with muta and keep poking until you think you have enough. This goes back to a basic issue with the SC2 engine (or a voluntary design decision, but that'd be strange), in that once a projectile is shot at one of your units, it *will* hit, no matter if the targeted unit gets far beyond the theoretical max range of the projectile.[...] That's not increasing zerg micro, because you technically cannot split out from a mine shot in an engagement. Where's the game design advantage in this kind of behavior? If projectiles expired once at max range, it'd become possible to micro out of mine shots (and others), which would be both more logical and more interesting. Though it still doesn't warrant having a single unit able to randomly kill ten times its worth in lings/banes (emphasis on randomly). | ||
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Maniak_
France305 Posts
On July 18 2014 22:46 Faust852 wrote: (1.5 according to LP, but yeah)Once again, it is not instant damage. You have to burrow it, and then there is 2s of charging. And once it shoots, you can't avoid it even if you get technically out of range. And you can cast 2 storms with a HT, and with 2 HT, you have 4 storms, and one archon. And for the gas price of 2 HT you have 12 mines.But it costs more supply. But it comes a lot sooner. But HTs are always mobile. But WMs are burrowed when armed. ...why are those units compared in the first place? You could compare it to a baneling, since they come approximately at the same time, cost nearly the same amount, except that in exchange for the 40s cooldown, banes are not ranged, do not hit air, are not invisible when ready to attack, can be avoided, have a smaller splash area and die on their first attack. But they cost less supply. That's closer, but still not comparable either. | ||
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Ravomat
Germany422 Posts
On July 18 2014 22:46 Faust852 wrote: Once again, it is not instant damage. You have to burrow it, and then there is 2s of charging. It's more than a storm that is instant casted and last 4s. And you can cast 2 storms with a HT, and with 2 HT, you have 4 storms, and one archon. And a WM become useless for 40s after it hits. We're doing this again? A HT needs to wait 44.44s to regenerate enough energy for the first storm; a widow mine can fire twice in that time. If you don't morph them into archons you have to wait another 133s (another 3 WM shots) to be able to cast a storm. Also WMs can't be disabled via feedback/EMP and you don't have to manually fire. They also force detection. These 2 units can't be directly compared. Stop talking semantics. If the WM is triggered it hits unless the unit is picked up or blinked away but even then splash damage occurs. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On July 18 2014 21:40 SatedSC2 wrote: This post makes way more sense than I thought it would having read the first sentence... Eh, it's pure speculation about Blizzard's intentions and goes counter to what Blizzard has actually stated. And the reason banshees take very long to build is because they're a detection check, it's the same reason why the dark shrine takes eons. It's not because of marines, all the build times of all the terran tech units date to WoL beta when marines were underused. | ||
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iamcaustic
Canada1509 Posts
On July 18 2014 21:36 Xequecal wrote: I've said it a bunch of times, the real problem is the marine. Marines are so stupidly good and cost-effective that everything else about Terran has to be crippled to avoid breaking the game. Marines ensure that Terran late game will always suck. It's impossible to make it not suck without overpowering Terran in the early/mid game. The short Terran tech tree means that good late game units become overpowered cheese units when combined with the marine in the early/midgame. Upgraded SC2 marines get +10 health compared to upgraded BW marines (alternatively, unupgraded SC2 marines get +1 range compared to unupgraded BW marines), and everyone loses their mind. If banshees built faster, they'd even be a problem in TvT (where they'd rip apart the limited marine numbers -- guess the marine isn't the problem there!). The banshee is simply a unit that can be extremely cost effective with good control. That's what justifies the build time. SC2 siege tanks are considerably buffed compared to BW (they don't even need an upgrade for siege mode anymore!). In return, they cost an extra 25 gas and 1 supply. The idea that this unit is "crippled" is preposterous. What "cripples" it is powerful counter-units from the other races: super-buffed HotS mutalisks (they were fine in WoL and -- surprise -- we saw plenty of siege tanks in TvZ, even without their HotS buffs) and the immortal (this unit has always been a problem in SC2, preventing mech in TvP). The warhound wasn't taken out because of marine/warhound cheeses. This is hilarious revisionist history. The widow mine got nerfed because Zergs were complaining about the match up being hard, despite the balance stats showing an even game. David Kim's recent interview with OGN shows his regret that they didn't wait longer before considering a widow mine nerf, and is why they're looking to re-buff the unit now. Read the interview. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On July 19 2014 06:13 iamcaustic wrote: Upgraded SC2 marines get +10 health compared to upgraded BW marines (alternatively, unupgraded SC2 marines get +1 range compared to unupgraded BW marines), and everyone loses their mind. If banshees built faster, they'd even be a problem in TvT (where they'd rip apart the limited marine numbers -- guess the marine isn't the problem there!). The banshee is simply a unit that can be extremely cost effective with good control. That's what justifies the build time. SC2 siege tanks are considerably buffed compared to BW (they don't even need an upgrade for siege mode anymore!). In return, they cost an extra 25 gas and 1 supply. The idea that this unit is "crippled" is preposterous. What "cripples" it is powerful counter-units from the other races: super-buffed HotS mutalisks (they were fine in WoL and -- surprise -- we saw plenty of siege tanks in TvZ, even without their HotS buffs) and the immortal (this unit has always been a problem in SC2, preventing mech in TvP). The warhound wasn't taken out because of marine/warhound cheeses. This is hilarious revisionist history. The widow mine got nerfed because Zergs were complaining about the match up being hard, despite the balance stats showing an even game. David Kim's recent interview with OGN shows his regret that they didn't wait longer before considering a widow mine nerf, and is why they're looking to re-buff the unit now. Read the interview. First of all, it's +15, and second of all, marines can't be massed early in BW like they can in SC2. There's no reactors and the build time is the same. Next, even though the marine is much weaker, standard BW Zerg strategy against marines is to hide behind a wall of sunkens at the natural until mutalisks are out, which force the Terran to keep units at home. Zerg needs defilers to go on the offensive against marines, and they work because dark swarm makes marines do absolutely NOTHING and Terran's only counter to dark swarm is to kill the defilers before they can cast it. Marines also benefit more than any other unit from the removal of the 12-unit cap, making it possible to stim and kite with huge balls of them. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
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Tuczniak
1561 Posts
On July 19 2014 06:13 iamcaustic wrote:The widow mine got nerfed because Zergs were complaining about the match up being hard, despite the balance stats showing an even game. David Kim's recent interview with OGN shows his regret that they didn't wait longer before considering a widow mine nerf, and is why they're looking to re-buff the unit now. Read the interview. It was roach bane allin almost every game or parade push into terran win. Very fun. Almost like Wol PvZ, immortal allin or die in macro to BL/infestor. Even though the stats may be around 50%, it just sucks hard. | ||
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