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BasetradeTV
Canada1307 Posts
On May 04 2014 07:42 TechNoTrance wrote: Your post really means nothing to me besides "I told you so, that's what you get for not working with me". That's fine, because it wasn't written for you. I'm writing this, not with any sort of malice or spite to take a shot at you, but more so as a message for others who look to emulate what you tried with the DETL | ||
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RookUK
United Kingdom283 Posts
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Wardi
England898 Posts
On May 04 2014 07:06 BasetradeTV wrote: If someone approaches you offering to help, should really take them up on it. (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/441939-deimos-esports-team-league-1500?page=3#54) I don't know many sponsors that want to get involved with something that gets 200~300 concurrent viewers, on a good day. I'm writing this, not with any sort of malice or spite to take a shot at you, but more so as a message for others who look to emulate what you tried with the DETL. You know what would have helped getting sponsorship involvement? Viewer Numbers. I've managed to lock down sponsorship involvement for the majority of my events in 2014, whether it's for an event one time only, or multiple ones over time (can see all past linked threads here or the upcoming one here). Hell, if the URTL was able to lock down CMStorm as a sponsor with what was 30~40 viewers per broadcast, I'm sure anyone can. I don't have a guide on how to do things, and I wish I had someone teach me these sorts of things prior to trying myself. The only way anyone gets good at this stuff is by trying & failing (trial & error), and it doesn't feel like you tried. -Rifkin Edit: because also this You write this post in a way as if to say the only way for new events to succeed is to rely on people already established in the scene. Resting on the shoulder of established casters/channels/etc is definitely one way to instantly get people interested but it by far isn't the only way. You also have to ask how valuable is it to Deimos to have a different channel taking on the coverage? A lot more people may have watched, but is it for the right reason? A lot will suddenly be watching for the channel and not for the event. Does it really look great to a sponsor when you come to them and say 'Hey, we get lots of viewers when we can rely on this channel, but if we do things ourselves it isn't so great.'? Yeah more people see the advertising, they see the brand and that may be what it takes to put in some form of support - but as soon as there is no longer this shoulder to lean upon Deimos would be left with nothing - no established branding, no channel people relate to and so on. They don't get everything on their Youtube, they get very little out of it for themselves. A lot of this is perspectives and it depends what they wanted from all of this. I personally think they maybe strived too far for Season 2 - it takes more than one event to really make a name of yourself in this scene. But I think it's a pretty disgusting thing to come along and rub it in their faces that they failed because they did not pick you. It actually makes it seem as though you enjoy seeing them fail because they made the 'wrong decision' of not getting your help. Everyone messes up - it's hard when you are doing something new to make the correct calls all of the time and I think you should give them a little more respect than flaunting their mistakes. Yes you can secure sponsorships for your events because you are established, you have people behind you and people who will tune in a lot of the time no matter what is going on. You have much better production value on your stream than most other community streams (if not all.) You put on a fantastic show - but you got to that point because you put in effort and time and built up your brand which is exactly what Deimos were trying to do here. | ||
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Siphonn
United States298 Posts
On May 04 2014 07:06 BasetradeTV wrote: If someone approaches you offering to help, should really take them up on it. (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/441939-deimos-esports-team-league-1500?page=3#54) I don't know many sponsors that want to get involved with something that gets 200~300 concurrent viewers, on a good day. I'm writing this, not with any sort of malice or spite to take a shot at you, but more so as a message for others who look to emulate what you tried with the DETL. You know what would have helped getting sponsorship involvement? Viewer Numbers. I've managed to lock down sponsorship involvement for the majority of my events in 2014, whether it's for an event one time only, or multiple ones over time (can see all past linked threads here or the upcoming one here). Hell, if the URTL was able to lock down CMStorm as a sponsor with what was 30~40 viewers per broadcast, I'm sure anyone can. I don't have a guide on how to do things, and I wish I had someone teach me these sorts of things prior to trying myself. The only way anyone gets good at this stuff is by trying & failing (trial & error), and it doesn't feel like you tried. -Rifkin Edit: because also this If this isn't arrogant I don't know what is. | ||
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Waise
3165 Posts
yeah... i like basetrade, but that post leaves a really sour taste in my mouth and just seems like another person in the sc community stirring up shitty drama for basically no reason. kind of sad | ||
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MangoMountain
Norway2044 Posts
Standard fare for rifkin and co. Pretty impressive how bad he makes himself and basetrade look as soon as he writes anything | ||
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SC2CTL
Canada104 Posts
I really appreciate what the DETL tried to accomplish, and I especially appreciate that it tried to accomplish it on it's own brand, without relying on others. What the scene needs is more sustainable leagues and organizations, not another nameless B-Roll event to hype up a single caster's resume. I can echo a couple of sentiments about the casters in the DETL - a couple of them had really low quality microphones and that frustrates me as a viewer - but that was absolutely not why it failed. In fact, I would not say it failed at all - from where I was sitting DETL looked like a pretty great success. Whether you want to hear it or not, it doesn't matter how many great teams you have involved, when you play an online-only tournament with casters in separate locations casting over Skype, without the crowd there and without all the hype it just does not feel like a premier event. And for a non-premier event, it got a pretty reasonable amount of views. It didn't get a sustainable amount of views, no. But it got enough views that I would call it a success. How any organization ever could be successful without the help of rifkin is beyond me though. Wasn't he the one who got Obama elected? | ||
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Zenbrez
Canada5973 Posts
On May 04 2014 08:12 MangoMountain wrote: Standard fare for rifkin and co. Pretty impressive how bad he makes himself and basetrade look as soon as he writes anything I'm not really bothered by it, the comments the OP made were stupid and immature. Rifkin is just responding and explaining why. | ||
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.kv
United States2332 Posts
agreed...should lighten up on your post you are poking a dead horse...no need for that | ||
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nerpderp
United States780 Posts
On May 04 2014 08:05 Waise wrote: yeah... i like basetrade, but that post leaves a really sour taste in my mouth and just seems like another person in the sc community stirring up shitty drama for basically no reason. kind of sad Yeah, and I think on a day when a team disbands, it's just the wrong time to come and post an "i told you so" message, and with one-sided information at that. | ||
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Crot4le
England2927 Posts
Siphonn, I'm actually a fan of yours since I saw your play in one the WCS America qualifiers (season one I believe). However, this post is really unhelpful. The previous posts have been measured and respectful, yours is just mud-flinging and kicking up drama. Cut it out. Also, on the matter in hand, I don't think the aim of Rifkin's post was a cocky 'lol told you so'. If some people have interpreted it this way than that is a real shame, but it certainly didn't read that way myself. It think it was more designed as piece of constructive criticism about something that went wrong. I can't emphasise enough the importance of constructive criticism when projects fail. If you do not take on feedback then you are just destined to fail the next time. Perhaps someone else can learn from a piece of feedback and not make the same mistake themselves. As a scene, if we are to grow and see more grassroots events succeeding we must be willing to learn from others' experience and opinions. Of course, you can disagree with the matter at hand but then in that case you need to discuss the points themselves and not attack the person expressing it. Anyway, to the actual subject matter. I watched a few rounds of the DETL mainly the Core games because I'm a fan of JonnyREcco (who sadly didn't feature as much as I'd have liked but hey ho) and I have to say I enjoyed the casting of feardragon and Temp0. I think there is a great deal of truth that if it was on the BaseTradeTV channel it would have gained more exposure from the greater following. Perhaps this bigger platform would have been beneficial in the long run (more viewers, a sponsor for a second season, more exposure from word of mouth) however it is easy to make these judgements with the benefit of hindsight. For me Deimos' reasons for wishing to build it up on their own platform were extremely reasonable and although it ultimately hasn't worked out I can see why they made that decision. | ||
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nerpderp
United States780 Posts
On May 04 2014 08:22 SC2CTL wrote: In fact, I would not say it failed at all - from where I was sitting DETL looked like a pretty great success. Whether you want to hear it or not, it doesn't matter how many great teams you have involved, when you play an online-only tournament with casters in separate locations casting over Skype, without the crowd there and without all the hype it just does not feel like a premier event. And for a non-premier event, it got a pretty reasonable amount of views. This. I hope people and especially Deimos doesn't think that DETL failed, because it didn't. People are always reluctant to pay attention to something new, and it takes several tries and tournaments before people will consistently tune in, just due to product familiarity. I have no doubt that DETL could have gotten many more views for a second season. | ||
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nerpderp
United States780 Posts
On May 04 2014 08:29 Crot4le wrote: Also, on the matter in hand, I don't think the aim of Rifkin's post was a cocky 'lol told you so'. If some people have interpreted it this way than that is a real shame, but it certainly didn't read that way myself. It think it was more designed as piece of constructive criticism about something that went wrong. I can't emphasise enough the importance of constructive criticism when projects fail. If you do not take on feedback then you are just destined to fail the next time. Perhaps someone else can learn from a piece of feedback and not make the same mistake themselves. As a scene, if we are to grow and see more grassroots events succeeding we must be willing to learn from others' experience and opinions. Of course, you can disagree with the matter at hand but then in that case you need to discuss the points themselves and not attack the person expressing it. To be fair, Rifkin presented a completely one-sided version of what happened. He refused to cast DETL it unless it was on his channel, and after Deimos initially said no, he offered to "help" again (presumably with the same conditions) as if nothing had happened. He didn't mention any of these things in his response. If he REALLY wanted to help Deimos and the greater NA scene, then he would have offered to cast with no strings attached (other than maybe advertising his stream on the overlay). | ||
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Crot4le
England2927 Posts
On May 04 2014 08:34 nerpderp wrote: To be fair, Rifkin presented a completely one-sided version of what happened. He refused to cast DETL it unless it was on his channel, and after Deimos initially said no, he offered to "help" again (presumably with the same conditions) as if nothing had happened. He didn't mention any of these things in his response. If he REALLY wanted to help Deimos and the greater NA scene, then he would have offered to cast with no strings attached (other than maybe advertising his stream on the overlay). Again, BaseTradeTV is the bigger platform. Unless you're talking a WCS or Dreamhack stream then the chances are that the event is going to get more viewers on BaseTradeTV channel that the event's own channel. When ZOTAC have their cups they use the audiences of channels of BaseTradeTV and Khaldor to get more viewers for their event, as does the Acer Teamstory Cup as does Dreamhack with community streams as did O'Gaming with Nation Wars being on Totalbiscuit's channel. Rifkin going on Deimos' channel as a caster isn't the same as BaseTradeTV covering the event. People watch BaseTradeTV for the BaseTradeTV production, the sub community, the twitch chat, the sub emotes, the map intros and the BaseTradeTVBot. You had an offer and you had your reasons for declining it (which I totally understand and respect btw). But don't then say oh you didn't really help us because we wanted you to cast for free on our channel and you refused" because that's not fair at all. From what I gather, Rifkin offered exposure on his platform, he didn't offer to cast for you for free. The two are not the same. | ||
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BasetradeTV
Canada1307 Posts
I'm writing this, not with any sort of malice or spite to take a shot at you Everyone seems to be glancing past this, rather than reading the actual post? he would have offered to cast with no strings attached (other than maybe advertising his stream on the overlay).] You're a fool if you think anyone does anything "for free with no strings attached." Wasn't he the one who got Obama elected? Well, he sure wasn't my president. Seriously though, trying to figure out where in my post where exactly I said the DETL was a failure? Striving for greatness is one thing, having a terrible model & no plans about doing it is the another. I never said they had to "use me or fail", or basetradetv for the matter. And none of the shit I've been writing has been, "lol fuck you bye bye i win u lose" as you guys seem to be making it out to be. If you're going to use something like the DETL to grow your own brand, you should have the next step ready, the end goal is what, season 2? Well, what good is getting a couple thousand views on a twitch channel that has no future? rifkin is not only wrong here, but an absolute dick. At least I'm big in Japan. This actually sums up better than what I could, so I can stop posting and not waste time with this thread :-) It think it was more designed as piece of constructive criticism about something that went wrong. I can't emphasise enough the importance of constructive criticism when projects fail. If you do not take on feedback then you are just destined to fail the next time. Perhaps someone else can learn from a piece of feedback and not make the same mistake themselves. As a scene, if we are to grow and see more grassroots events succeeding we must be willing to learn from others' experience and opinions. Of course, you can disagree with the matter at hand but then in that case you need to discuss the points themselves and not attack the person expressing it. | ||
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thunderdogesports
United States60 Posts
GLHF! ~Shock, CEO, Thunderdog eSports Packleader Industries, LLC | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On May 04 2014 09:13 BasetradeTV wrote: Everyone seems to be glancing past this, rather than reading the actual post? You're a fool if you think anyone does anything "for free with no strings attached." Well, he sure wasn't my president. Seriously though, trying to figure out where in my post where exactly I said the DETL was a failure? Striving for greatness is one thing, having a terrible model & no plans about doing it is the another. I never said they had to "use me or fail", or basetradetv for the matter. And none of the shit I've been writing has been, "lol fuck you bye bye i win u lose" as you guys seem to be making it out to be. If you're going to use something like the DETL to grow your own brand, you should have the next step ready, the end goal is what, season 2? Well, what good is getting a couple thousand views on a twitch channel that has no future? At least I'm big in Japan. This actually sums up better than what I could, so I can stop posting and not waste time with this thread :-) I think you at least have to admit that saying they "didn't try" is an exaggeration. There's another way to get your point across there I think. Not that I really want to be dramatic or anything because it's awesome that you do what you do for SC2. | ||
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nerpderp
United States780 Posts
On May 04 2014 09:13 BasetradeTV wrote: You're a fool if you think anyone does anything "for free with no strings attached." What are you talking about? How cynical do you have to be to say something like this? Plenty of people do things that they love or care about, no questions asked, even in esports. And frankly you'd also have gotten plenty of good will from the community for helping out the DETL, even on their channel. I really love BasetradeTV and watch almost all your broadcasts, but you should't post responses without proper context and complete information (ie, you should have mentioned that you'd help them only if it was on your channel). You're better than that. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
Thank you for building up a team from nothing and contributing to the community as you did. | ||
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Crot4le
England2927 Posts
On May 04 2014 09:27 nerpderp wrote: What are you talking about? How cynical do you have to be to say something like this? Plenty of people do things that they love or care about, no questions asked. And if you really cared about building the NA community, you'd have done the same. And frankly you'd also have gotten plenty of good will from the community for helping out the DETL, even on their channel. I really love BasetradeTV and watch almost all your broadcasts, but you should't post responses without proper context and complete information (ie, you should have mentioned that you'd help them only if it was on your channel). You're better than that. Complete nonsense. And I see you've conveniently ignored my previous post. Basically, you're saying you wanted Rifkin to stream on your channel and that he didn't want to and would rather stream on his own platform that he has worked hard to build up means that he doesn't care about building the NA community? I had respect for you before you made that comment, now you've lost all of it. Now all it seems like to me is that you are trying to find others to blame for your own failure. EDIT: Since you ninja edited then I'll edit mine to address your second point. On May 04 2014 09:27 nerpderp wrote:I really love BasetradeTV and watch almost all your broadcasts, but you should't post responses without proper context and complete information (ie, you should have mentioned that you'd help them only if it was on your channel). You're better than that. What I am going to say here I already said in my previous comment which you skipped. Rifkin offered exposure on his platform, he didn't offer to cast for you for free. The two are not the same. It is unreasonable and foolish to want Rifkin to cast for you but not use BaseTradeTV's platform. Firstly, Rifkin has no more (in fact he has less) star power than Temp0. People aren't going to tune in just to see Rifkin cast. People, me included, are going to tune into BaseTradeTV for the BaseTradeTV experience (the community, the sub emotes, the production. the map intros, the emotes (aceFB for example). I don't really have that much interest in ZOTAC Cups but I watch because I enjoy watching BaseTradeTV. Rifkin offered his platform to you, not free casting. Rifkin streaming on your minor channel would have no impact on getting more viewers and would be a waste of his time (which he could use to run is own event on his own channel). You can't expect everyone to bend to your wishes that's ridiculous. "OH you didn't do it the way I wanted tat means you don't support the NA scene." Rubbish. Rifkin thought he could help the tournament by using his platform. You reasonably rejected because you wanted to do it on your own platform, fair enough. In hindsight it turns out you made the wrong call, which Rifkin pointed out as future reference to anyone else who may want to try something similar in the future. It's important and valuable to learn from others' mistakes. | ||
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