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Deimos, a team that was started with a gold player, 2 plats, and a masters (Myself Tbatz). I was a part of many teams, and managed alot of teams including with Sphere, All Inspiration, and Warrior Nation. I thought I could put time into a team and run it the way a team should be ran, so I went on google and looked for cool names, the first one I decided was Primal, cuz I thought it was pretty cool, but it was taken. After that, I looked through greek gods and that, and found Deimos, the spirit of Fear and Terror, and it was pretty cool.
So the team started out pretty well, about 2 weeks in we had a decent masters lineup, and started actively doing clanwars. Around this time, we picked up a player named TechNo, who would turn into being one of the best managers an sc2 team has ever had.
Many months later, we had a top masters team(See here), which I was very proud of and we got pretty high ranked on Sc2ranks, but I wanted to break into the GM scene, and contacted probably half the GM list trying to get, but was pretty unsuccessful. In October, a player came to me saying that a player named Guitarcheese was looking for a team, but for pay. At this time I made quite good money, working construction, so i decided to check it out. I talked to him, and I decided to go with it, and with that came the start of our semi pro team, and a few days after that, we partnered with ownaj for clothing, and Drunkenboi joined the team. In 2013, we picked up Bails, Siphonn, KoMA, and Sanddbox. Our team was finally one of the strongest NA teams.
2014 we decided to start adding to the NA scene, and getting our name out there, so I saved up some money, and started the DETL (See here). We had great organization, amazing casters including FearDragon, Temp0, Nanman, Boisterois, and a few more. Also, the best teams in NA including IvD, RooT, CoL and Clarity. We put uncountable hours into it, TechNo maknig the top 5 plays of the week (See Here), amazing production and observing from KurenTV, and some good feedback. We were hoping for this to get good support and continue with it for a 2nd season of DETL with a 5k+ prize pool, 10 teams with 4 qualifier spots for teams anywhere, a great casting crew and higher production. Unfortunately, we had very little support from the NA scene to do this, 0 donations, and 0 sponsorship backup, which comes with me no longer being able to financially support the team since I got laid off without much notice, and my trade being in a very dry season, cannot find a job.
In the end, we had an absolutely amazing team, we went from nothing to being the strongest Canadian team, and one of the strongest on North America, and really without any drama. The experiences I had were great, meeting people I never would have without the team, and making many friends. Special thanks to TechNo, for being the best damn manager a team could have. ReD for making amazing graphics, the people who put a crazy amount of hours into the DETL, my GF Siren for supporting me so much with everything i have done, the players who did so much for the team including Guitarcheese, Bails, Siphonn, Flatline, Pluto, DeeMo, Evolution, EliGE, and more. My only regret is that we didnt make it to MLG Anaheim.
Goodbye
Braydon "Tbatz" Nowakowski
I'm sad to see this happen to the team, but being involved has been one of the best experiences of my life. It was something special to help build the team from nothing to semi-pro/pro status. I've met some amazing people and have made some (hopefully) long lasting friendships.
Passion and love for the game is what kept us going, and I don't regret any time spent on it. It was a great learning experience for myself. Aside from managing the team I built and designed the website, handled business and PR exposure, coordinated the DETL and created content for it, and even found out how to make a twitch bot (RIP Deimosbot). Working behind the scenes really gives one an appreciation for how much work goes into upkeeping a team and creating content and production. The things teams do for the scene and for the love of the game is amazing.
I think Tbatz and I did pretty good for two unknown guys from Saskatoon. When he first came to me looking for masters players and wanting to make a "pro" team I thought he was crazy and just a dreamer. Didn't think it would get this far. I'd like to thank all of the Deimos boys first of all. The team really felt like a family. If you were away from skype for 1 day, you would have missed probably a thousand or more messages. Everyone was great to be around and to talk to, and these guys have some serious skill and a ton of potential in SC2. Big thanks to the people who supported us. You guys really kept us going. Even something as simple as kind words in a reddit post meant a lot.
If I can ask one thing of the community, it would be to give more support to up-and-coming teams. It's really tough to break out, and even the smallest gestures can mean a lot.
Thanks for all the fun SC2 community, I definitely won't be leaving.
-Scott "TechNo" Clandinin
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Fuckkk I was really looking forward to DETL season 2  . Best of luck to you, the management, and the players in everything you do in the future
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if you need donations to survive then you probably never had a healthy business model to begin with
still sad to see people's hard work not getting them where they wanted
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Good luck in whatever you do, Tbatz
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Thanks for everything! You guys contributed so much to the NA scene.
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Very sad to see this happening but I wish the absolute best of luck to everyone who was a member of team Deimos. Really great team and really friendly group of people! =[
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Canada8157 Posts
damn sucks man, at least you tried
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You're the man Tbatz! Best of luck to all members of Deimos <3
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Sad to see you leave
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United States23455 Posts
Damn that sucks to hear. You guys were drama free and made great content. Wish you all the best and thank you for being an organization NA could be proud of. You guys did well.
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I'm sad to see this happen to the team, but being involved has been one of the best experiences of my life. It was something special to help build the team from nothing to semi-pro/pro status. I've met some amazing people and have made some (hopefully) long lasting friendships.
Passion and love for the game is what kept us going, and I don't regret any time spent on it. It was a great learning experience for myself. Aside from managing the team I built and designed the website, handled business and PR exposure, coordinated the DETL and created content for it, and even found out how to make a twitch bot (RIP Deimosbot). Working behind the scenes really gives one an appreciation for how much work goes into upkeeping a team and creating content and production. The things teams do for the scene and for the love of the game is amazing.
I think Tbatz and I did pretty good for two unknown guys from Saskatoon. When he first came to me looking for masters players and wanting to make a "pro" team I thought he was crazy and just a dreamer. Didn't think it would get this far. I'd like to thank all of the Deimos boys first of all. The team really felt like a family. If you were away from skype for 1 day, you would have missed probably a thousand or more messages. Everyone was great to be around and to talk to, and these guys have some serious skill and a ton of potential in SC2. Big thanks to the people who supported us. You guys really kept us going. Even something as simple as kind words in a reddit post meant a lot.
If I can ask one thing of the community, it would be to give more support to up-and-coming teams. It's really tough to break out, and even the smallest gestures can mean a lot.
Thanks for all the fun SC2 community, I definitely won't be leaving.
-Scott "TechNo" Clandinin
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Thanks for everything Deimos, you guys were a good group of people!
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Sad to see this happen, was a pleasure having Deimos in the team league I run.
In reality though it's impossible to rely on donations & sponsors to stay alive in these kinds of positions. The DETL, though very well ran and with really awesome production with the top 5 plays etc, never truly kicked it off with the viewers. Considering it was literally all of the top NA teams with a really nice prize pool the viewership each week was far from spectacular.
It's hard - because what can you do? You can't force people to watch. It was well promoted, well ran, it had added extras and anything viewers would want from a larger tournament, but it's just not enough without the top top top players and well known personalities it feels.
Sucks to see the brutal world of esports taking down another great semi-pro or so team. Best of luck to all players & persons of management in the future.
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I was always surprised at the low viewership for DETL, people just don't bother to try out new events that they haven't heard of, their loss as the production was awesome and the games were super fun. The weekly top 5 vids were reminiscent of the IPL vids and they were fantastic every time. You're the man TechNo
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Your team's name resounds in my head, though I can't put my finger on it. Sad to see a team go, great job putting this up from scratch. I feel that lack, or rather insufficiency, of teamleagues is a bane of foreign SC2's existance. It makes a team model much harder to sustain which in turn deprives players of a strict practice enviroment (people debate on that, I'm a beliver).
Are you done with esports or do you leave the door open in a "maybe but not really" kinda way?
Gl in all you do 
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I wish I could say I was surprised, but Deimos was pretty clearly a "self-sponsored" team and without significant work and consistent high-quality content production, that's just not a sustainable business model.
Sad to see them go.
Except for Guitarcheese, that guy's just not very good at the game. Probably has WinterStarcraft boosting his account to GM.
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On May 04 2014 05:20 Yorkie wrote:
I was always surprised at the low viewership for DETL, people just don't bother to try out new events that they haven't heard of, their loss as the production was awesome and the games were super fun. The weekly top 5 vids were reminiscent of the IPL vids and they were fantastic every time. You're the man TechNo
for my part it never seemed to be on at times that were good for me to watch, wasn't sure where to find vods, didn't hear a lot about it in general and the casters weren't my cup of tea. i was interested in watching it from when i first heard about it, but i don't really have the kind of life where i just sit around all day looking for starcraft content, so if there's not a lot of buzz then it's likely just not going to enter my consciousness too often. not sure if anyone had similar experiences
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Running a North American team is a hard business, so on behalf of the NA community, I want to thank you for everything you've done for the scene. Guitarcheese and Bails are now staples of the competitive scene, and the DETL was a great tournament. You have a lot to be proud of, and I hope the team can be resurrected in the future, better than ever.
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On May 04 2014 05:26 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2014 05:20 Yorkie wrote:
I was always surprised at the low viewership for DETL, people just don't bother to try out new events that they haven't heard of, their loss as the production was awesome and the games were super fun. The weekly top 5 vids were reminiscent of the IPL vids and they were fantastic every time. You're the man TechNo for my part it never seemed to be on at times that were good for me to watch, wasn't sure where to find vods, didn't hear a lot about it in general and the casters weren't my cup of tea. i was interested in watching it from when i first heard about it, but i don't really have the kind of life where i just sit around all day looking for starcraft content, so if there's not a lot of buzz then it's likely just not going to enter my consciousness too often. not sure if anyone had similar experiences
It was Friday nights and Sunday afternoons iirc. Decent times for viewership, although I don't know what your time zone situation was. The schedule was well published and their youtube channel was updated consistently. If you don't like the casters, that's your prerogative, but you didn't need to "have the kind of life where I just sit around all day looking for starcraft content" in order to watch it...
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Sad to hear this ;( Will you be keeping a casual team at all and continue playing for fun or will you be disbanding completely?
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On May 04 2014 05:20 Yorkie wrote:
I was always surprised at the low viewership for DETL, people just don't bother to try out new events that they haven't heard of, their loss as the production was awesome and the games were super fun. The weekly top 5 vids were reminiscent of the IPL vids and they were fantastic every time. You're the man TechNo
Thanks man <3 Was always great to see you in the LR thread
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This team was awesome...from staff to players...I'll miss you guys...and gals ^_^
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Very sad to see. Being a part of Deimos has been an amazing and fun experience for this humble gold noob. <3 The North American scene is a lot of fun to keep up with, and has a lot of really amazing people working within it!
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On May 04 2014 05:30 ReachTheSky wrote:
Sad to hear this ;( Will you be keeping a casual team at all and continue playing for fun or will you be disbanding completely?
Deimos itself is disbanded, I have a casual community team that I made for mainly players in my city, and many others have joined, mainly diamond team, which I will continue to be a part of. Other than that, Im not sure if I will stay in esports.
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On May 04 2014 05:26 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2014 05:20 Yorkie wrote:
I was always surprised at the low viewership for DETL, people just don't bother to try out new events that they haven't heard of, their loss as the production was awesome and the games were super fun. The weekly top 5 vids were reminiscent of the IPL vids and they were fantastic every time. You're the man TechNo for my part it never seemed to be on at times that were good for me to watch, wasn't sure where to find vods, didn't hear a lot about it in general and the casters weren't my cup of tea. i was interested in watching it from when i first heard about it, but i don't really have the kind of life where i just sit around all day looking for starcraft content, so if there's not a lot of buzz then it's likely just not going to enter my consciousness too often. not sure if anyone had similar experiences
The DETL had the burden of having to shift its schedule around several times because it conflicted with other events. It eventually had to settle on Friday and Sunday, which are not optimal times for a Starcraft broadcast, in addition to people/fans simply forgetting about it because of the scheduling changes. I also think their attempt to not conflict with other broadcasts ironically might have backfired. They might have been better off intentionally scheduling it at the same time as another big event, since they probably could have gotten more exposure that way than relegating it to a more obscure time.
Re: casters, if I were to offer one constructive criticism on the production, it was that the casters oftentimes appeared too casual, like they were broadcasting an arcade night rather than a competitive league.
And regarding the zero support from the NA scene for a Season 2 -- as someone who closely followed the DETL, I wasn't even aware that they were trying to crowdsource a Season 2. I didn't see any reddit threads or tweets on that matter. I'm sure there was enough goodwill in the NA community for at least some support (maybe not $5k, but I think another $1.5K prize pool would have been doable).
I don't mean to sound too critical -- I watched most of the DETL and had a great time doing so, and the effort by the entire crew was valiant. I think there's definitely a place in the SC2 scene for a team like Deimos, and I sincerely hope that they and the DETL can come back in the future.
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Sad news, best of luck to all of you
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Aww this sucks...
I'm only a member of the community team which is still going really strong. By far the best casual clan I've ever been a part of
Gotta ask is the Deimos pro team going to remain together at least informally? By this I mean I understand that you won't be financially backing the team anymore, but will you guys still keep your clan tag, and clan together at least informally in game?
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And regarding the zero support from the NA scene for a Season 2 -- as someone who closely followed the DETL, I wasn't even aware that they were soliciting funds for a Season 2. I didn't see any reddit threads or tweets on that matter. I'm sure they had generated enough good will from the community for at least some support (maybe not $5k, but I think another $1.5K prize pool would have been doable).
I don't mean to sound too critical -- I watched most of the DETL and had a great time doing so, and the effort by the entire crew was valiant. I think there's definitely a place in the SC2 scene for a team like Deimos, and I sincerely hope that they and the DETL can come back in the future.
We were never actively asking for donation, nor did we want to. I myself didn't expect any either. Just a donation thing under the stream that people usually never look at anyways. Crowdfunding for a team is a really bad business model and not a healthy way to keep a team alive. We wanted to make a sustainable team and league, but fell short of that.
Thanks for the honesty and the kind words.
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This actually makes me really sad and I am sorry that this ended up happening Team Deimos. I appreciate that you guys put on the team league, it was a lot of fun. I hate the fact that only 150-200 viewers would show up to watch the event when we had some pretty awesome teams playing. The NA scene is somewhat sad when it comes to StarCraft II they are to focused on games that require less thinking like League of Legends to care about supporting StarCraft as an E-.Sport. (Ya I bashed LoL, what about it?)
Hope to see your guys still laddering.
@Community: For those who care about SC2, I would hope that you all would check out any featured streams on TL regardless of who is casting or playing. If you notice a premier team or a major team in the NA scene playing, please give them your support. You can find some pretty innovative stuff. So lets support alright?
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On May 04 2014 06:09 TechNoTrance wrote:
Crowdfunding for a team is a really bad business model and not a healthy way to keep a team alive. We wanted to make a sustainable team and league, but fell short of that.
Thanks for the honesty and the kind words.
You're right, it's not. But as we can see, with limited sponsorships available, the alternative unfortunately gets us to exactly where we are right now.
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Man, I'm sad to hear this, the DETL was great, and you had a lot of very good up and coming players. I really liked what you were doing for the scene, and I'm sorry that it wasn't sustainable.
Good luck to you and all of the players!
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Sad to see it go. Deimos helped produce some of the best up-and-coming NA talent, with GuitarCheese, Siphonn, Bails, Drunkenboi and KoMa (although the terrans already left to coL), and the best NA teamleague I've seen in a long time. Good luck to all in the future, and I hope everyone sticks around in eSports - you guys all seemed like a lot of fun in the DETL twitch chat!
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Deimos, you will be missed. I saw you as one of the up-and-comers, and it is sad to see you go. I hope that your involvement was rewarding to yourselves and that your vision of a strong NA team league and the NA community getting off its ass to try and make itself stronger will come to fruition.
EDIT: And for those of you who here on this forum are interested in doing something proactive to make North American Starcraft succeed, start by watching this tournament and supporting the hell out of the guy who's running it, because he is doing more to bring up the NA scene than almost anyone.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/449573-the-breakout-invitational-2-north-america
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Ah, that's really too bad. Loved playing you guys in CWs, thanks for everything and best of luck!
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Unfortunately, we had very little support from the NA scene to do this
If someone approaches you offering to help, should really take them up on it. (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/441939-deimos-esports-team-league-1500?page=3#54) I don't know many sponsors that want to get involved with something that gets 200~300 concurrent viewers, on a good day.
0 donations, and 0 sponsorship backup
I'm writing this, not with any sort of malice or spite to take a shot at you, but more so as a message for others who look to emulate what you tried with the DETL. You know what would have helped getting sponsorship involvement? Viewer Numbers. I've managed to lock down sponsorship involvement for the majority of my events in 2014, whether it's for an event one time only, or multiple ones over time (can see all past linked threads here or the upcoming one here). Hell, if the URTL was able to lock down CMStorm as a sponsor with what was 30~40 viewers per broadcast, I'm sure anyone can.
I don't have a guide on how to do things, and I wish I had someone teach me these sorts of things prior to trying myself. The only way anyone gets good at this stuff is by trying & failing (trial & error), and it doesn't feel like you tried.
-Rifkin
Edit: because also this
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I'm sorry for Deimos. You're a cool guy TechNo, sad to see a team you've worked so hard for disband. Good luck to all the players, you guys have done great for yourselves so far.
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rifkin brought his fully automatic to this thread
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If someone approaches you offering to help, should really take them up on it. (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/441939-deimos-esports-team-league-1500?page=3#54) I don't know many sponsors that want to get involved with something that gets 200~300 concurrent viewers, on a good day.
We asked you before the league took off if you were interested in casting for us, and you refused unless it was on your channel. Both of us were trying to build our brands, yours obviously more established. Despite letting you know our goals you try to open business publicly again, and I find that a tad shady and disrespectful. I also wasn't a huge fan of the way you were exposing teams you worked with. I remember a LYGF event where you assured people the event "literally wasn't a scam" in your words. Despite my disagreements with how you did some things, I respect your hard work and how you've built basetrade tv.
Maybe I made a mistake and should have handed the stream over to you. I don't know. I have my doubts though that the name Basetradetv up on the featured list would have given us a thousand viewers a night. But who knows it may have.
Hell, if the URTL was able to lock down CMStorm as a sponsor with what was 30~40 viewers per broadcast, I'm sure anyone can.
You just said earlier that a sponsor wouldn't be interested in 2-300 viewers a night. Being a bit contradictory here. I worked really hard and contacted countless companies to look for some backing for a season 2. We had big plans for improvements, and had a few really popular casters interested in joining for a season 2. For you to say we didn't try is just ignorant.
Maybe it's hard these days to get sponsors to notice and take a newer team seriously. Maybe I made poor decisions that doomed us to fail, and lacked marketability. I don't know for sure. But I did what I though was right, and all of us did the best job we could with it.
Your post really means nothing to me besides "I told you so, that's what you get for not working with me".
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It's just sad because I'm sure many people, like myself, really supported Deimos and its players, and wanted very badly for you to succeed. Some of your players like Siphonn, Guitarcheese, and Bails were very close to making it big in the scene, especially with MLG Anaheim coming up, and it's disappointing to see the team disband right now.
Rifkin -- if you really wanted to help the team, I don't understand why you wouldn't agree to guest cast on their channel. It's important for Deimos, in getting additional sponsors for season 2, to show that their specific channel can generate viewership, not BasetradeTV.
I will say that, despite being unsustainable in the long run, crowdsourcing can be an effective tool for getting something off the ground. If a DETL season 2 could have been crowdsourced, and your production plans came into fruition, then the increased viewer numbers could have been enough to secure future sponsorship. Not giving up hope for the future, though.
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On May 04 2014 07:42 TechNoTrance wrote:
Your post really means nothing to me besides "I told you so, that's what you get for not working with me".
That's fine, because it wasn't written for you.
I'm writing this, not with any sort of malice or spite to take a shot at you, but more so as a message for others who look to emulate what you tried with the DETL
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Sad news - I really enjoyed the DETL broadcasts that I saw.
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On May 04 2014 07:06 BasetradeTV wrote:If someone approaches you offering to help, should really take them up on it. (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/441939-deimos-esports-team-league-1500?page=3#54) I don't know many sponsors that want to get involved with something that gets 200~300 concurrent viewers, on a good day. I'm writing this, not with any sort of malice or spite to take a shot at you, but more so as a message for others who look to emulate what you tried with the DETL. You know what would have helped getting sponsorship involvement? Viewer Numbers. I've managed to lock down sponsorship involvement for the majority of my events in 2014, whether it's for an event one time only, or multiple ones over time (can see all past linked threads here or the upcoming one here). Hell, if the URTL was able to lock down CMStorm as a sponsor with what was 30~40 viewers per broadcast, I'm sure anyone can. I don't have a guide on how to do things, and I wish I had someone teach me these sorts of things prior to trying myself. The only way anyone gets good at this stuff is by trying & failing (trial & error), and it doesn't feel like you tried. -Rifkin Edit: because also this
You write this post in a way as if to say the only way for new events to succeed is to rely on people already established in the scene. Resting on the shoulder of established casters/channels/etc is definitely one way to instantly get people interested but it by far isn't the only way. You also have to ask how valuable is it to Deimos to have a different channel taking on the coverage? A lot more people may have watched, but is it for the right reason? A lot will suddenly be watching for the channel and not for the event.
Does it really look great to a sponsor when you come to them and say 'Hey, we get lots of viewers when we can rely on this channel, but if we do things ourselves it isn't so great.'? Yeah more people see the advertising, they see the brand and that may be what it takes to put in some form of support - but as soon as there is no longer this shoulder to lean upon Deimos would be left with nothing - no established branding, no channel people relate to and so on. They don't get everything on their Youtube, they get very little out of it for themselves.
A lot of this is perspectives and it depends what they wanted from all of this. I personally think they maybe strived too far for Season 2 - it takes more than one event to really make a name of yourself in this scene. But I think it's a pretty disgusting thing to come along and rub it in their faces that they failed because they did not pick you. It actually makes it seem as though you enjoy seeing them fail because they made the 'wrong decision' of not getting your help.
Everyone messes up - it's hard when you are doing something new to make the correct calls all of the time and I think you should give them a little more respect than flaunting their mistakes. Yes you can secure sponsorships for your events because you are established, you have people behind you and people who will tune in a lot of the time no matter what is going on. You have much better production value on your stream than most other community streams (if not all.) You put on a fantastic show - but you got to that point because you put in effort and time and built up your brand which is exactly what Deimos were trying to do here.
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On May 04 2014 07:06 BasetradeTV wrote:If someone approaches you offering to help, should really take them up on it. (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/441939-deimos-esports-team-league-1500?page=3#54) I don't know many sponsors that want to get involved with something that gets 200~300 concurrent viewers, on a good day. I'm writing this, not with any sort of malice or spite to take a shot at you, but more so as a message for others who look to emulate what you tried with the DETL. You know what would have helped getting sponsorship involvement? Viewer Numbers. I've managed to lock down sponsorship involvement for the majority of my events in 2014, whether it's for an event one time only, or multiple ones over time (can see all past linked threads here or the upcoming one here). Hell, if the URTL was able to lock down CMStorm as a sponsor with what was 30~40 viewers per broadcast, I'm sure anyone can. I don't have a guide on how to do things, and I wish I had someone teach me these sorts of things prior to trying myself. The only way anyone gets good at this stuff is by trying & failing (trial & error), and it doesn't feel like you tried. -Rifkin Edit: because also this
If this isn't arrogant I don't know what is.
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On May 04 2014 08:03 Siphonn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2014 07:06 BasetradeTV wrote: Unfortunately, we had very little support from the NA scene to do this If someone approaches you offering to help, should really take them up on it. (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/441939-deimos-esports-team-league-1500?page=3#54) I don't know many sponsors that want to get involved with something that gets 200~300 concurrent viewers, on a good day. 0 donations, and 0 sponsorship backup I'm writing this, not with any sort of malice or spite to take a shot at you, but more so as a message for others who look to emulate what you tried with the DETL. You know what would have helped getting sponsorship involvement? Viewer Numbers. I've managed to lock down sponsorship involvement for the majority of my events in 2014, whether it's for an event one time only, or multiple ones over time (can see all past linked threads here or the upcoming one here). Hell, if the URTL was able to lock down CMStorm as a sponsor with what was 30~40 viewers per broadcast, I'm sure anyone can. I don't have a guide on how to do things, and I wish I had someone teach me these sorts of things prior to trying myself. The only way anyone gets good at this stuff is by trying & failing (trial & error), and it doesn't feel like you tried. -Rifkin Edit: because also this If this isn't arrogant I don't know what is.
yeah... i like basetrade, but that post leaves a really sour taste in my mouth and just seems like another person in the sc community stirring up shitty drama for basically no reason. kind of sad
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On May 04 2014 08:03 Siphonn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2014 07:06 BasetradeTV wrote: Unfortunately, we had very little support from the NA scene to do this If someone approaches you offering to help, should really take them up on it. (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/441939-deimos-esports-team-league-1500?page=3#54) I don't know many sponsors that want to get involved with something that gets 200~300 concurrent viewers, on a good day. 0 donations, and 0 sponsorship backup I'm writing this, not with any sort of malice or spite to take a shot at you, but more so as a message for others who look to emulate what you tried with the DETL. You know what would have helped getting sponsorship involvement? Viewer Numbers. I've managed to lock down sponsorship involvement for the majority of my events in 2014, whether it's for an event one time only, or multiple ones over time (can see all past linked threads here or the upcoming one here). Hell, if the URTL was able to lock down CMStorm as a sponsor with what was 30~40 viewers per broadcast, I'm sure anyone can. I don't have a guide on how to do things, and I wish I had someone teach me these sorts of things prior to trying myself. The only way anyone gets good at this stuff is by trying & failing (trial & error), and it doesn't feel like you tried. -Rifkin Edit: because also this If this isn't arrogant I don't know what is.
Standard fare for rifkin and co. Pretty impressive how bad he makes himself and basetrade look as soon as he writes anything
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Checking in as a North American organization who has picked up a >$1000 sponsorship this season for our Team League: rifkin is not only wrong here, but an absolute dick.
I really appreciate what the DETL tried to accomplish, and I especially appreciate that it tried to accomplish it on it's own brand, without relying on others. What the scene needs is more sustainable leagues and organizations, not another nameless B-Roll event to hype up a single caster's resume.
I can echo a couple of sentiments about the casters in the DETL - a couple of them had really low quality microphones and that frustrates me as a viewer - but that was absolutely not why it failed. In fact, I would not say it failed at all - from where I was sitting DETL looked like a pretty great success. Whether you want to hear it or not, it doesn't matter how many great teams you have involved, when you play an online-only tournament with casters in separate locations casting over Skype, without the crowd there and without all the hype it just does not feel like a premier event. And for a non-premier event, it got a pretty reasonable amount of views.
It didn't get a sustainable amount of views, no. But it got enough views that I would call it a success.
How any organization ever could be successful without the help of rifkin is beyond me though. Wasn't he the one who got Obama elected?
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On May 04 2014 08:12 MangoMountain wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2014 08:03 Siphonn wrote:On May 04 2014 07:06 BasetradeTV wrote: Unfortunately, we had very little support from the NA scene to do this If someone approaches you offering to help, should really take them up on it. (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/441939-deimos-esports-team-league-1500?page=3#54) I don't know many sponsors that want to get involved with something that gets 200~300 concurrent viewers, on a good day. 0 donations, and 0 sponsorship backup I'm writing this, not with any sort of malice or spite to take a shot at you, but more so as a message for others who look to emulate what you tried with the DETL. You know what would have helped getting sponsorship involvement? Viewer Numbers. I've managed to lock down sponsorship involvement for the majority of my events in 2014, whether it's for an event one time only, or multiple ones over time (can see all past linked threads here or the upcoming one here). Hell, if the URTL was able to lock down CMStorm as a sponsor with what was 30~40 viewers per broadcast, I'm sure anyone can. I don't have a guide on how to do things, and I wish I had someone teach me these sorts of things prior to trying myself. The only way anyone gets good at this stuff is by trying & failing (trial & error), and it doesn't feel like you tried. -Rifkin Edit: because also this If this isn't arrogant I don't know what is. Standard fare for rifkin and co. Pretty impressive how bad he makes himself and basetrade look as soon as he writes anything
I'm not really bothered by it, the comments the OP made were stupid and immature. Rifkin is just responding and explaining why.
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On May 04 2014 08:03 Siphonn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2014 07:06 BasetradeTV wrote: Unfortunately, we had very little support from the NA scene to do this If someone approaches you offering to help, should really take them up on it. (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/441939-deimos-esports-team-league-1500?page=3#54) I don't know many sponsors that want to get involved with something that gets 200~300 concurrent viewers, on a good day. 0 donations, and 0 sponsorship backup I'm writing this, not with any sort of malice or spite to take a shot at you, but more so as a message for others who look to emulate what you tried with the DETL. You know what would have helped getting sponsorship involvement? Viewer Numbers. I've managed to lock down sponsorship involvement for the majority of my events in 2014, whether it's for an event one time only, or multiple ones over time (can see all past linked threads here or the upcoming one here). Hell, if the URTL was able to lock down CMStorm as a sponsor with what was 30~40 viewers per broadcast, I'm sure anyone can. I don't have a guide on how to do things, and I wish I had someone teach me these sorts of things prior to trying myself. The only way anyone gets good at this stuff is by trying & failing (trial & error), and it doesn't feel like you tried. -Rifkin Edit: because also this If this isn't arrogant I don't know what is.
agreed...should lighten up on your post
you are poking a dead horse...no need for that
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On May 04 2014 08:05 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2014 08:03 Siphonn wrote:On May 04 2014 07:06 BasetradeTV wrote: Unfortunately, we had very little support from the NA scene to do this If someone approaches you offering to help, should really take them up on it. (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/441939-deimos-esports-team-league-1500?page=3#54) I don't know many sponsors that want to get involved with something that gets 200~300 concurrent viewers, on a good day. 0 donations, and 0 sponsorship backup I'm writing this, not with any sort of malice or spite to take a shot at you, but more so as a message for others who look to emulate what you tried with the DETL. You know what would have helped getting sponsorship involvement? Viewer Numbers. I've managed to lock down sponsorship involvement for the majority of my events in 2014, whether it's for an event one time only, or multiple ones over time (can see all past linked threads here or the upcoming one here). Hell, if the URTL was able to lock down CMStorm as a sponsor with what was 30~40 viewers per broadcast, I'm sure anyone can. I don't have a guide on how to do things, and I wish I had someone teach me these sorts of things prior to trying myself. The only way anyone gets good at this stuff is by trying & failing (trial & error), and it doesn't feel like you tried. -Rifkin Edit: because also this If this isn't arrogant I don't know what is. yeah... i like basetrade, but that post leaves a really sour taste in my mouth and just seems like another person in the sc community stirring up shitty drama for basically no reason. kind of sad
Yeah, and I think on a day when a team disbands, it's just the wrong time to come and post an "i told you so" message, and with one-sided information at that.
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On May 04 2014 08:03 Siphonn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2014 07:06 BasetradeTV wrote: Unfortunately, we had very little support from the NA scene to do this If someone approaches you offering to help, should really take them up on it. (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/441939-deimos-esports-team-league-1500?page=3#54) I don't know many sponsors that want to get involved with something that gets 200~300 concurrent viewers, on a good day. 0 donations, and 0 sponsorship backup I'm writing this, not with any sort of malice or spite to take a shot at you, but more so as a message for others who look to emulate what you tried with the DETL. You know what would have helped getting sponsorship involvement? Viewer Numbers. I've managed to lock down sponsorship involvement for the majority of my events in 2014, whether it's for an event one time only, or multiple ones over time (can see all past linked threads here or the upcoming one here). Hell, if the URTL was able to lock down CMStorm as a sponsor with what was 30~40 viewers per broadcast, I'm sure anyone can. I don't have a guide on how to do things, and I wish I had someone teach me these sorts of things prior to trying myself. The only way anyone gets good at this stuff is by trying & failing (trial & error), and it doesn't feel like you tried. -Rifkin Edit: because also this If this isn't arrogant I don't know what is.
Siphonn, I'm actually a fan of yours since I saw your play in one the WCS America qualifiers (season one I believe). However, this post is really unhelpful. The previous posts have been measured and respectful, yours is just mud-flinging and kicking up drama. Cut it out.
Also, on the matter in hand, I don't think the aim of Rifkin's post was a cocky 'lol told you so'. If some people have interpreted it this way than that is a real shame, but it certainly didn't read that way myself. It think it was more designed as piece of constructive criticism about something that went wrong. I can't emphasise enough the importance of constructive criticism when projects fail. If you do not take on feedback then you are just destined to fail the next time. Perhaps someone else can learn from a piece of feedback and not make the same mistake themselves. As a scene, if we are to grow and see more grassroots events succeeding we must be willing to learn from others' experience and opinions. Of course, you can disagree with the matter at hand but then in that case you need to discuss the points themselves and not attack the person expressing it.
Anyway, to the actual subject matter. I watched a few rounds of the DETL mainly the Core games because I'm a fan of JonnyREcco (who sadly didn't feature as much as I'd have liked but hey ho) and I have to say I enjoyed the casting of feardragon and Temp0. I think there is a great deal of truth that if it was on the BaseTradeTV channel it would have gained more exposure from the greater following. Perhaps this bigger platform would have been beneficial in the long run (more viewers, a sponsor for a second season, more exposure from word of mouth) however it is easy to make these judgements with the benefit of hindsight. For me Deimos' reasons for wishing to build it up on their own platform were extremely reasonable and although it ultimately hasn't worked out I can see why they made that decision.
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On May 04 2014 08:22 SC2CTL wrote:
In fact, I would not say it failed at all - from where I was sitting DETL looked like a pretty great success. Whether you want to hear it or not, it doesn't matter how many great teams you have involved, when you play an online-only tournament with casters in separate locations casting over Skype, without the crowd there and without all the hype it just does not feel like a premier event. And for a non-premier event, it got a pretty reasonable amount of views.
This.
I hope people and especially Deimos doesn't think that DETL failed, because it didn't. People are always reluctant to pay attention to something new, and it takes several tries and tournaments before people will consistently tune in, just due to product familiarity. I have no doubt that DETL could have gotten many more views for a second season.
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On May 04 2014 08:29 Crot4le wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2014 08:03 Siphonn wrote:On May 04 2014 07:06 BasetradeTV wrote: Unfortunately, we had very little support from the NA scene to do this If someone approaches you offering to help, should really take them up on it. (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/441939-deimos-esports-team-league-1500?page=3#54) I don't know many sponsors that want to get involved with something that gets 200~300 concurrent viewers, on a good day. 0 donations, and 0 sponsorship backup I'm writing this, not with any sort of malice or spite to take a shot at you, but more so as a message for others who look to emulate what you tried with the DETL. You know what would have helped getting sponsorship involvement? Viewer Numbers. I've managed to lock down sponsorship involvement for the majority of my events in 2014, whether it's for an event one time only, or multiple ones over time (can see all past linked threads here or the upcoming one here). Hell, if the URTL was able to lock down CMStorm as a sponsor with what was 30~40 viewers per broadcast, I'm sure anyone can. I don't have a guide on how to do things, and I wish I had someone teach me these sorts of things prior to trying myself. The only way anyone gets good at this stuff is by trying & failing (trial & error), and it doesn't feel like you tried. -Rifkin Edit: because also this If this isn't arrogant I don't know what is. Also, on the matter in hand, I don't think the aim of Rifkin's post was a cocky 'lol told you so'. If some people have interpreted it this way than that is a real shame, but it certainly didn't read that way myself. It think it was more designed as piece of constructive criticism about something that went wrong. I can't emphasise enough the importance of constructive criticism when projects fail. If you do not take on feedback then you are just destined to fail the next time. Perhaps someone else can learn from a piece of feedback and not make the same mistake themselves. As a scene, if we are to grow and see more grassroots events succeeding we must be willing to learn from others' experience and opinions. Of course, you can disagree with the matter at hand but then in that case you need to discuss the points themselves and not attack the person expressing it.
To be fair, Rifkin presented a completely one-sided version of what happened. He refused to cast DETL it unless it was on his channel, and after Deimos initially said no, he offered to "help" again (presumably with the same conditions) as if nothing had happened. He didn't mention any of these things in his response. If he REALLY wanted to help Deimos and the greater NA scene, then he would have offered to cast with no strings attached (other than maybe advertising his stream on the overlay).
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On May 04 2014 08:34 nerpderp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2014 08:29 Crot4le wrote:On May 04 2014 08:03 Siphonn wrote:On May 04 2014 07:06 BasetradeTV wrote: Unfortunately, we had very little support from the NA scene to do this If someone approaches you offering to help, should really take them up on it. (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/441939-deimos-esports-team-league-1500?page=3#54) I don't know many sponsors that want to get involved with something that gets 200~300 concurrent viewers, on a good day. 0 donations, and 0 sponsorship backup I'm writing this, not with any sort of malice or spite to take a shot at you, but more so as a message for others who look to emulate what you tried with the DETL. You know what would have helped getting sponsorship involvement? Viewer Numbers. I've managed to lock down sponsorship involvement for the majority of my events in 2014, whether it's for an event one time only, or multiple ones over time (can see all past linked threads here or the upcoming one here). Hell, if the URTL was able to lock down CMStorm as a sponsor with what was 30~40 viewers per broadcast, I'm sure anyone can. I don't have a guide on how to do things, and I wish I had someone teach me these sorts of things prior to trying myself. The only way anyone gets good at this stuff is by trying & failing (trial & error), and it doesn't feel like you tried. -Rifkin Edit: because also this If this isn't arrogant I don't know what is. Also, on the matter in hand, I don't think the aim of Rifkin's post was a cocky 'lol told you so'. If some people have interpreted it this way than that is a real shame, but it certainly didn't read that way myself. It think it was more designed as piece of constructive criticism about something that went wrong. I can't emphasise enough the importance of constructive criticism when projects fail. If you do not take on feedback then you are just destined to fail the next time. Perhaps someone else can learn from a piece of feedback and not make the same mistake themselves. As a scene, if we are to grow and see more grassroots events succeeding we must be willing to learn from others' experience and opinions. Of course, you can disagree with the matter at hand but then in that case you need to discuss the points themselves and not attack the person expressing it. To be fair, Rifkin presented a completely one-sided version of what happened. He refused to cast DETL it unless it was on his channel, and after Deimos initially said no, he offered to "help" again (presumably with the same conditions) as if nothing had happened. He didn't mention any of these things in his response. If he REALLY wanted to help Deimos and the greater NA scene, then he would have offered to cast with no strings attached (other than maybe advertising his stream on the overlay).
Again, BaseTradeTV is the bigger platform. Unless you're talking a WCS or Dreamhack stream then the chances are that the event is going to get more viewers on BaseTradeTV channel that the event's own channel. When ZOTAC have their cups they use the audiences of channels of BaseTradeTV and Khaldor to get more viewers for their event, as does the Acer Teamstory Cup as does Dreamhack with community streams as did O'Gaming with Nation Wars being on Totalbiscuit's channel. Rifkin going on Deimos' channel as a caster isn't the same as BaseTradeTV covering the event. People watch BaseTradeTV for the BaseTradeTV production, the sub community, the twitch chat, the sub emotes, the map intros and the BaseTradeTVBot.
You had an offer and you had your reasons for declining it (which I totally understand and respect btw). But don't then say oh you didn't really help us because we wanted you to cast for free on our channel and you refused" because that's not fair at all. From what I gather, Rifkin offered exposure on his platform, he didn't offer to cast for you for free. The two are not the same.
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I'm writing this, not with any sort of malice or spite to take a shot at you
Everyone seems to be glancing past this, rather than reading the actual post?
he would have offered to cast with no strings attached (other than maybe advertising his stream on the overlay).]
You're a fool if you think anyone does anything "for free with no strings attached."
Wasn't he the one who got Obama elected?
Well, he sure wasn't my president.
Seriously though, trying to figure out where in my post where exactly I said the DETL was a failure? Striving for greatness is one thing, having a terrible model & no plans about doing it is the another. I never said they had to "use me or fail", or basetradetv for the matter. And none of the shit I've been writing has been, "lol fuck you bye bye i win u lose" as you guys seem to be making it out to be. If you're going to use something like the DETL to grow your own brand, you should have the next step ready, the end goal is what, season 2? Well, what good is getting a couple thousand views on a twitch channel that has no future?
rifkin is not only wrong here, but an absolute dick.
At least I'm big in Japan.
This actually sums up better than what I could, so I can stop posting and not waste time with this thread :-)
It think it was more designed as piece of constructive criticism about something that went wrong. I can't emphasise enough the importance of constructive criticism when projects fail. If you do not take on feedback then you are just destined to fail the next time. Perhaps someone else can learn from a piece of feedback and not make the same mistake themselves. As a scene, if we are to grow and see more grassroots events succeeding we must be willing to learn from others' experience and opinions. Of course, you can disagree with the matter at hand but then in that case you need to discuss the points themselves and not attack the person expressing it.
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Tbatz, and TechNo: Very well said, both of you. Although, we're pretty sure that this isn't "forever" goodbye. The two of you will be kickin' around the community for a long time to come.
GLHF!
~Shock, CEO, Thunderdog eSports
Packleader Industries, LLC
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On May 04 2014 09:13 BasetradeTV wrote:Show nested quote +I'm writing this, not with any sort of malice or spite to take a shot at you Everyone seems to be glancing past this, rather than reading the actual post? Show nested quote +he would have offered to cast with no strings attached (other than maybe advertising his stream on the overlay).] You're a fool if you think anyone does anything "for free with no strings attached." Well, he sure wasn't my president. Seriously though, trying to figure out where in my post where exactly I said the DETL was a failure? Striving for greatness is one thing, having a terrible model & no plans about doing it is the another. I never said they had to "use me or fail", or basetradetv for the matter. And none of the shit I've been writing has been, "lol fuck you bye bye i win u lose" as you guys seem to be making it out to be. If you're going to use something like the DETL to grow your own brand, you should have the next step ready, the end goal is what, season 2? Well, what good is getting a couple thousand views on a twitch channel that has no future? At least I'm big in Japan. This actually sums up better than what I could, so I can stop posting and not waste time with this thread :-) Show nested quote +It think it was more designed as piece of constructive criticism about something that went wrong. I can't emphasise enough the importance of constructive criticism when projects fail. If you do not take on feedback then you are just destined to fail the next time. Perhaps someone else can learn from a piece of feedback and not make the same mistake themselves. As a scene, if we are to grow and see more grassroots events succeeding we must be willing to learn from others' experience and opinions. Of course, you can disagree with the matter at hand but then in that case you need to discuss the points themselves and not attack the person expressing it.
I think you at least have to admit that saying they "didn't try" is an exaggeration. There's another way to get your point across there I think. Not that I really want to be dramatic or anything because it's awesome that you do what you do for SC2.
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On May 04 2014 09:13 BasetradeTV wrote:
You're a fool if you think anyone does anything "for free with no strings attached."
What are you talking about? How cynical do you have to be to say something like this? Plenty of people do things that they love or care about, no questions asked, even in esports. And frankly you'd also have gotten plenty of good will from the community for helping out the DETL, even on their channel.
I really love BasetradeTV and watch almost all your broadcasts, but you should't post responses without proper context and complete information (ie, you should have mentioned that you'd help them only if it was on your channel). You're better than that.
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The discussion in this thread is actually kind of educational for anyone who might be interested in starting a NA team lol.
Thank you for building up a team from nothing and contributing to the community as you did.
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On May 04 2014 09:27 nerpderp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2014 09:13 BasetradeTV wrote:
You're a fool if you think anyone does anything "for free with no strings attached."
What are you talking about? How cynical do you have to be to say something like this? Plenty of people do things that they love or care about, no questions asked. And if you really cared about building the NA community, you'd have done the same. And frankly you'd also have gotten plenty of good will from the community for helping out the DETL, even on their channel. I really love BasetradeTV and watch almost all your broadcasts, but you should't post responses without proper context and complete information (ie, you should have mentioned that you'd help them only if it was on your channel). You're better than that.
Complete nonsense. And I see you've conveniently ignored my previous post.
Basically, you're saying you wanted Rifkin to stream on your channel and that he didn't want to and would rather stream on his own platform that he has worked hard to build up means that he doesn't care about building the NA community?
I had respect for you before you made that comment, now you've lost all of it. Now all it seems like to me is that you are trying to find others to blame for your own failure.
EDIT: Since you ninja edited then I'll edit mine to address your second point.
On May 04 2014 09:27 nerpderp wrote:I really love BasetradeTV and watch almost all your broadcasts, but you should't post responses without proper context and complete information (ie, you should have mentioned that you'd help them only if it was on your channel). You're better than that.
What I am going to say here I already said in my previous comment which you skipped. Rifkin offered exposure on his platform, he didn't offer to cast for you for free. The two are not the same. It is unreasonable and foolish to want Rifkin to cast for you but not use BaseTradeTV's platform. Firstly, Rifkin has no more (in fact he has less) star power than Temp0. People aren't going to tune in just to see Rifkin cast. People, me included, are going to tune into BaseTradeTV for the BaseTradeTV experience (the community, the sub emotes, the production. the map intros, the emotes (aceFB for example). I don't really have that much interest in ZOTAC Cups but I watch because I enjoy watching BaseTradeTV.
Rifkin offered his platform to you, not free casting. Rifkin streaming on your minor channel would have no impact on getting more viewers and would be a waste of his time (which he could use to run is own event on his own channel). You can't expect everyone to bend to your wishes that's ridiculous. "OH you didn't do it the way I wanted tat means you don't support the NA scene." Rubbish. Rifkin thought he could help the tournament by using his platform. You reasonably rejected because you wanted to do it on your own platform, fair enough. In hindsight it turns out you made the wrong call, which Rifkin pointed out as future reference to anyone else who may want to try something similar in the future.
It's important and valuable to learn from others' mistakes.
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On May 04 2014 09:32 Crot4le wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2014 09:27 nerpderp wrote:On May 04 2014 09:13 BasetradeTV wrote:
You're a fool if you think anyone does anything "for free with no strings attached."
What are you talking about? How cynical do you have to be to say something like this? Plenty of people do things that they love or care about, no questions asked. And if you really cared about building the NA community, you'd have done the same. And frankly you'd also have gotten plenty of good will from the community for helping out the DETL, even on their channel. Complete nonsense. And I see you've conveniently ignored my previous post. Basically, you're saying you wanted Rifkin to stream on your channel and that he didn't want to and would rather stream on his own platform that he has worked hard to build up means that he doesn't care about building the NA community? I had respect for you before you made that, now you've lost all of it. Now all it seems like to me is that you are trying to find others to blame for your own failure.
Umm, ... I'm not affiliated with Deimos. I'm just a fan. Just to clarify.
I'm very sad that you've lost respect for me.
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On May 04 2014 09:33 nerpderp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2014 09:32 Crot4le wrote:On May 04 2014 09:27 nerpderp wrote:On May 04 2014 09:13 BasetradeTV wrote:
You're a fool if you think anyone does anything "for free with no strings attached."
What are you talking about? How cynical do you have to be to say something like this? Plenty of people do things that they love or care about, no questions asked. And if you really cared about building the NA community, you'd have done the same. And frankly you'd also have gotten plenty of good will from the community for helping out the DETL, even on their channel. Complete nonsense. And I see you've conveniently ignored my previous post. Basically, you're saying you wanted Rifkin to stream on your channel and that he didn't want to and would rather stream on his own platform that he has worked hard to build up means that he doesn't care about building the NA community? I had respect for you before you made that, now you've lost all of it. Now all it seems like to me is that you are trying to find others to blame for your own failure. I'm not affiliated with Deimos. I'm just a fan. Just to clarify. I'm very sad that you've lost respect for me.
Sorry, the way you were talking I thought you were involved somehow. By the way, have another at my post because I edited it to respond to the second part of your post that you edited in.
Also, I must stress that when I have lost respect for you I am talking about your position in this discussion, not you as an individual. I'm sure as an individual you're a wonderful person.
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Sorry mark
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On May 04 2014 07:06 BasetradeTV wrote:If someone approaches you offering to help, should really take them up on it. (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-tournaments/441939-deimos-esports-team-league-1500?page=3#54) I don't know many sponsors that want to get involved with something that gets 200~300 concurrent viewers, on a good day. I'm writing this, not with any sort of malice or spite to take a shot at you, but more so as a message for others who look to emulate what you tried with the DETL. You know what would have helped getting sponsorship involvement? Viewer Numbers. I've managed to lock down sponsorship involvement for the majority of my events in 2014, whether it's for an event one time only, or multiple ones over time (can see all past linked threads here or the upcoming one here). Hell, if the URTL was able to lock down CMStorm as a sponsor with what was 30~40 viewers per broadcast, I'm sure anyone can. I don't have a guide on how to do things, and I wish I had someone teach me these sorts of things prior to trying myself. The only way anyone gets good at this stuff is by trying & failing (trial & error), and it doesn't feel like you tried. -Rifkin Edit: because also this
having followed BaseTradeTV for a long, long time i can say this.
Rifkin may only be a Diamond League Terran player.. but he is a Grandmaster at building viewership numbers.
i'd STFU and listen to what he has to say.
Rifkin has gently and painstakingly massaged the BaseTradeTV brand into a recognizable, independent, grass roots source for competitive Starcraft.
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try and try until you die succeed...
sad to see someone's effort go to waste....
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On May 04 2014 09:13 BasetradeTV wrote:
You're a fool if you think anyone does anything "for free with no strings attached."
Sad but true, SC2 is a business, not a hobby. I've played mods for single player games that people have put thousands of hours into for no money simply because they enjoy the game and enjoy modding it.
If all the sponsors left SC2 and even a single content creator was left working for free because they enjoy the game, I'd be very surprised.
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What a shame. I caught a couple broadcasts, but overall I missed it. Where was the advertizing done? I'm one of the few people who sits on twitch 8 hours a day.
One pet peeve of mine is having less than Master league casters. It seems to me that you simply can't have lower league players casting GMs. But hey, qualified people with shit tons of free time aren't always available.
It sounds like you guys accomplished a lot with your team league. Best of luck in your future endeavors.
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On May 04 2014 12:16 riyanme wrote:
try and try until you die succeed...
sad to see someone's effort go to waste....
It wasn't a waste, the experiences were amazing, just didnt get as far as I wanted.
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On May 04 2014 12:38 Cheren wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2014 09:13 BasetradeTV wrote:
You're a fool if you think anyone does anything "for free with no strings attached."
Sad but true, SC2 is a business, not a hobby. I've played mods for single player games that people have put thousands of hours into for no money simply because they enjoy the game and enjoy modding it. If all the sponsors left SC2 and even a single content creator was left working for free because they enjoy the game, I'd be very surprised.
Be surprised then. There are a good number of us already working and creating content without any sponsors or earning a dime, even via ad revenue because we want to.
Not to pick you out but I don't understand why, no matter how many times it gets said, nobody seems to let this idea sink in. The amount of time and effort most quality Starcraft/eSports content producers sink into learning how to create their content, making their content, and promoting it is enough to make a hell of a lot more money in another industry.
We do it because we enjoy it. This goes for most of the people who are making money in eSports and a lot of those who aren't.
--
Anyways, I'm sorry I couldn't do my part in making the casting side of the broadcasts more enjoyable for people. I'm still working on my own casting skills and hope people will enjoy the broadcast more when I reach a reasonable place.
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Maybe drama was what it needed
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doh... sorry to hear guys
as feedback - i thought i follow things reasonably actively yet this is the first time i've heard of deimos
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On May 04 2014 05:04 Yorkie wrote:Fuckkk I was really looking forward to DETL season 2 . Best of luck to you, the management, and the players in everything you do in the future
me too. The top5 weeklys were awesome
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The posts, and caster posts especially, in this thread are pretty disgusting. The devolution of this forum overall is saddening.
Anyway, my 2c: From a player perspective Deimos managers were very nice and inclusive to me even when I was not sure what I wanted to do when I was actively playing the game. Moreover, their players were incredibly nice and overall this team must have had tons of great times together from what I could tell. It's sad to see another NA team go.
NA eSports continues to backtrack when things like this happen. If people cannot recognize how big of a deal things like this are then in a few years when all that's left is Liquid and EG you can stop for a few seconds and think why there are not any amazing amateur players coming up in the NA SC2 scene anymore. Though, you could be like a number of individuals in this thread and just write them off as a team who didn't try and had a "bad plan", hah.
Good luck in the future guys! Siphon I know you got contacted :p
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Northern Ireland24321 Posts
I don't blame Deimos, it seems they had good content and worked their asses off, the sad reality from an outsider looking in is that outside of big names and 'personalities' people seem to not want to watch the next generation of players coming through.
It's a problem across SC2 communities but less pronounced in EU for reasons I can't really figure out
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Sad loss to the scene but more proof that sc2 teams are unsustainable without players who win big name tournaments. Even then its a struggle.
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On May 04 2014 18:33 -Kyo- wrote:
NA eSports continues to backtrack when things like this happen. If people cannot recognize how big of a deal things like this are then in a few years when all that's left is Liquid and EG you can stop for a few seconds and think why there are not any amazing amateur players coming up in the NA SC2 scene anymore. Though, you could be like a number of individuals in this thread and just write them off as a team who didn't try and had a "bad plan", hah.
Again, this isn't writing them off as a team who didn't try and had a 'bad plan'. This is highlighting mistakes that were made so that the next upstart that comes along doesn't make the same mistake.
That way more new ventures can be successful and the NA scene can grow so we don't get left with just Liquid and EG.
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ITT: The reason most community personalities have stopped posting on Teamliquid.
Sorry to hear that Deimos is closing down but holy shit stop crucifying Rifkin for having the audacity to deliver some informed reality rather than wail and nash his teeth to no effect.
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On May 04 2014 18:33 -Kyo- wrote:
The posts, and caster posts especially, in this thread are pretty disgusting. The devolution of this forum overall is saddening.
Anyway, my 2c: From a player perspective Deimos managers were very nice and inclusive to me even when I was not sure what I wanted to do when I was actively playing the game. Moreover, their players were incredibly nice and overall this team must have had tons of great times together from what I could tell. It's sad to see another NA team go.
NA eSports continues to backtrack when things like this happen. If people cannot recognize how big of a deal things like this are then in a few years when all that's left is Liquid and EG you can stop for a few seconds and think why there are not any amazing amateur players coming up in the NA SC2 scene anymore. Though, you could be like a number of individuals in this thread and just write them off as a team who didn't try and had a "bad plan", hah.
Good luck in the future guys! Siphon I know you got contacted :p
You shit on constructive criticism then proceed to say you're saddened by the devolution of the forum? lol alright buddy.
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Deimos: Drama free until it closed  . As a casual viewer, I can tell you I have very, very little enthusiasm for watching unknown tournaments unless they're casted by interesting personalities. SC2 is just, fundamentally, not *that* interesting for me to devote my time to relatively unknown streams. Although its possible the games were really exciting in a way that korean progamers can't make it, but I'm skeptical that it would have been that high quality in comparison.
I really don't envision the NA scene growing, at least not for SC2. Whenever I see the breakout NA stream on, I notice the number of viewers: 3, sometimes 4.
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Sucks to hear about this news
In regards to the DETL, I was pretty surprised rifkins offer to help cast was denied, it seemed only beneficial to have him bring in more numbers for free as well as provide a better cast overall
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On May 05 2014 01:05 coL.hendralisk wrote:Sucks to hear about this news In regards to the DETL, I was pretty surprised rifkins offer to help cast was denied, it seemed only beneficial to have him bring in more numbers for free as well as provide a better cast overall
We denied it because we were trying to push our brand, if it was on BaseTrades channel, it wouldn't really be as much ours, but BaseTrades. We have nothing against him and I appreciated his help, but we decided to try and do things our way on our channel. Maybe it would have been different if we let Rifkin do it on his channel, but also maybe not. Also when going to sponsors about being a sponsor for the season 2, it seems silly to ask them to sponsor something that we don't have alot to do with, if you get what I mean, since we would have just been organizing something for BaseTrade to do.
Overall numbers aside, DETL went very well, and im extremely happy with it =)
-Tbatz
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Hmm somehow I have never heard of this team before, but seems sad that you guys are disbanding.
GG, best of luck ^_^
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My opinion, I believe it was a mistake to not use Basetrade to help build your brand. That isn't to say you would solely rely on it, but when you first start off you need a launching pad to jump off. I understand your reasoning, but you have to look at the current scene. Many tournament organizer use community casters. It seems to be the ecosystem of the SC2 scene at the moment. Khaldor casted for Vasacast and is casting right now for TakeTV. Madals does casts for other tournaments on his own channels.
You need these personality casters to help boost your brand. Rifkin, Khaldor, et al, have taken the time to build their brand and one of them extended the olive branch. You are trying to build your brand from the ground. Did you expect it to flourish after one season? Shit, BasetradeTV had ~100 viewers in the beginning. It would be foolish to not test out their help at least.
I know its easy for me to say "you should have done this", but honestly it seems like you wanted to use your brand and channel because of stubbornness. Instead, you should have agreed to accept Rifkin's help on his conditions, so you can leverage his audience. Once DETL received significant exposure from Basetrade, then thank Rifkin for his assistance but tell him you no longer need him.
With regards to your own casters, guys it is a full time job trying to take your personality into esports. Aside from just casting games, you need to be super active on social media, TL threads, Bnet forums, and any other community. You need to promote the shit out of yourself and brand. You have to reply to every tweet, message, email, thread comment, etc. I followed Basetrade's twitter for a bit, and Rifkin replied quite promptly to tweets. There was a reddit thread from a fan that thanked Rifkin and Basetrade. You need that interaction, and without it you guys are just voices that will be forgotten after the match.
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On May 05 2014 03:05 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
With regards to your own casters, guys it is a full time job trying to take your personality into esports. Aside from just casting games, you need to be super active on social media, TL threads, Bnet forums, and any other community. You need to promote the shit out of yourself and brand. You have to reply to every tweet, message, email, thread comment, etc. I followed Basetrade's twitter for a bit, and Rifkin replied quite promptly to tweets. There was a reddit thread from a fan that thanked Rifkin and Basetrade. You need that interaction, and without it you guys are just voices that will be forgotten after the match.
I agree. This is very important to do. I do want to present some information here though.
Take me for example. I already:
- Spend time keeping active on twitter/social media
- Post on TL and reddit(as I am doing now) when I feel I have something to contribute/say
- Tweet out about things I'm involved in as well as others I like supporting
- Posted every single day I went live with my own show(breaking out) despite having chains of 8-10 posts of just me in the thread
- Respond to nearly every one of the few messages I get on TL, Twitch, e-mail, reddit, etc. Often times even the trolls.
- Appeal to bigger personalities to help get my name out there by asking for retweets and even getting Axeltoss on board for casting Season 1 of my tournament
- Call into podcast shows like Inside the Game and participate in discussions
- Continue to seek out more casting gigs of various ranges from pro players(Dreamhack), to semi pro players(Breaking Out), to amateur(AHGL/CSL) that would broaden opportunities to reach new audiences.
A lot of these things I would do regardless of whether I was promoting a brand but a lot of them I do because of it. I'm sure there's more stuff I could be doing but I think it's unfair to just assume we aren't taking an active part in putting ourselves out there as becoming well known is a lot more than just purely promotion.
So yes I agree that community interaction is important for aspiring commentators! I'm just saying don't be so quick to assume we're not there, interacting just because we're not well recognized yet(or hell, barely known in my case after doing this for 3 years). I only chose myself as an example because I am aware of all the stuff I'm doing, but there are plenty of other commentators are doing the same thing in their own way. Temp0 is a great example as he is constantly tweeting people, casting different leagues, creating other content like music that gets his name out there, interacts with fans while streaming for 5-6 hours at a time on a relatively consistent basis.
Anyways, tl;dr: Yes promotion is important. No it's not the the main reason every(or possibly even most) aspiring commentator is not more well known. Some people, like me, need to suck less at their actual commentary skills and game knowledge.
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I didn't mean to assume you didn't do it, but I gave DETL a try a couple of times, and during which the interaction seemed low.
I don't want to make my post be a "this is why you failed" response, because I don't have all the information to make that claim, but these are only observations I made while giving you guys a chance.
I am rather surprised though you guys decided to fold so quickly. Although things seemed to start rough, I truly think you guys had a chance to blow up. At this point maybe Deimos should have examined their weakness and worked on closing any of those weak links.
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I can understand wanting to build your own brand, but in such a small saturated community it can be a very long process. A lot of the already established brands/players/personalities have been streaming and creating content for 2+ years with <10 viewers before things took off.
If you weren't prepared for the long haul to build a brand on your own then using something like BaseTradeTV for exposure would of been a wise choice.
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I agree Ronin, trying to build up a brand in whatever community is a long process. It starts from the 40-50 viewers you had in the first season, and slowly snowball it from there.
Deimos kind of gave up before the snowball effect even started. I don't know what your expectations were after the first season, but maybe you should have started a little smaller. $1,500 for the first season of DETL seemed rather large for a start up team. I think maybe even a $500 prize pool, or just a bunch of show matches challenging other teams for $100.
Honestly, if you guys keep going from here and not quit, maybe something can still happen. Who knows.
For now, it is my opinion Deimos quit before it even fully started.
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I don't think you guys understand what's going on here?
Tbatz was putting up his own money to fund Deimos and couldn't do it anymore. The DETL was a last ditch effort to attempt at sustainability. They weren't expecting it to be a smash success but they were hoping it would be. I'm quite confident it was known that unless the DETL got them noticed by a big sponsor, they would be closing up shop.
That's why it would be incredibly stupid to accept rifkin's offer; maybe it would have been better for them in the long-haul if they were committed to 3-4 seasons of DETL (though I still doubt it), but they needed sponsors for Deimos immediately. They didn't get any, and so are closing up shop.
Everyone knows how to slowly build an audience. That's not what Deimos needed. They needed a miracle season and they didn't get one. Now they're gone. I'm at peace with that. But when you're looking to get your company noticed, you don't put another company's sign on your door.
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On May 05 2014 07:50 SC2CTL wrote:
I don't think you guys understand what's going on here?
Tbatz was putting up his own money to fund Deimos and couldn't do it anymore. The DETL was a last ditch effort to attempt at sustainability. They weren't expecting it to be a smash success but they were hoping it would be. I'm quite confident it was known that unless the DETL got them noticed by a big sponsor, they would be closing up shop.
That's why it would be incredibly stupid to accept rifkin's offer; maybe it would have been better for them in the long-haul if they were committed to 3-4 seasons of DETL (though I still doubt it), but they needed sponsors for Deimos immediately. They didn't get any, and so are closing up shop.
Everyone knows how to slowly build an audience. That's not what Deimos needed. They needed a miracle season and they didn't get one. Now they're gone. I'm at peace with that. But when you're looking to get your company noticed, you don't put another company's sign on your door.
Pretty damn accurate.
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On May 05 2014 07:17 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
I agree Ronin, trying to build up a brand in whatever community is a long process. It starts from the 40-50 viewers you had in the first season, and slowly snowball it from there.
Deimos kind of gave up before the snowball effect even started. I don't know what your expectations were after the first season, but maybe you should have started a little smaller. $1,500 for the first season of DETL seemed rather large for a start up team. I think maybe even a $500 prize pool, or just a bunch of show matches challenging other teams for $100.
Honestly, if you guys keep going from here and not quit, maybe something can still happen. Who knows.
For now, it is my opinion Deimos quit before it even fully started.
If only money grew from trees as you demand, then more teams could go on without "quitting".
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As one of the casters from the DETL I'm really sad that Deimos had to close it's doors. I really enjoyed working with everyone on DETL not only on the production side of things but seeing all the up and coming players.
I really appreciate everyone that came out every week and watched our broadcast live or just checked out the top 5 plays of the week. All of your support really helps for anyone trying to fill the void of NA based team leagues.
As for Deimos over all they had some great NA players that not only qualified for WCS America but were also showing amazing play in the team league. Everyone else involved in Deimos(Management, Writers, and the media team) needs to be commended on all their time/energy/money that they put into it.
Best of luck to everyone involved it was a real pleasure working with you!
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I understand the situation, I read the thread and many of the responses. I understand he funded the team and the league from his own pocket, which is why I believe he shouldn't have started so large. If my budget for content and promotion is small, I would rather stretch it out as far as possible, instead of using it up in one big bang.
And doodsmack, I am not suggesting money is easy to come by, but perhaps they should have planned for the next five years, instead of expecting one season of DETL to blow up.
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Some thing about hindsight being 20/20 and if it was easy, everyone would do it.
Sorry to hear it didn't work out guys. I'm sure you tried hard and did the best you could.
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when I saw Deimos I thought of phobos and diemos, the two moons of Mars.
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DETL was a lot of fun. Thanks a bunch.
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While i was on this team, it was great. good luck to you tbatz
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On May 05 2014 00:24 knOxStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2014 18:33 -Kyo- wrote:
The posts, and caster posts especially, in this thread are pretty disgusting. The devolution of this forum overall is saddening.
Anyway, my 2c: From a player perspective Deimos managers were very nice and inclusive to me even when I was not sure what I wanted to do when I was actively playing the game. Moreover, their players were incredibly nice and overall this team must have had tons of great times together from what I could tell. It's sad to see another NA team go.
NA eSports continues to backtrack when things like this happen. If people cannot recognize how big of a deal things like this are then in a few years when all that's left is Liquid and EG you can stop for a few seconds and think why there are not any amazing amateur players coming up in the NA SC2 scene anymore. Though, you could be like a number of individuals in this thread and just write them off as a team who didn't try and had a "bad plan", hah.
Good luck in the future guys! Siphon I know you got contacted :p You shit on constructive criticism then proceed to say you're saddened by the devolution of the forum? lol alright buddy.
You must have missed something. You cannot reasonably mean to constructively criticize anything in the OP considering the team is disbanding - unless you think by criticizing their plans and structure they'll magically come back and fix everything just for you - or that some other organization that has the means to actually address their problems won't do so without your criticism? Lol...
This thread should be a place where you thank Deimos for the effort and support they gave to the semi-pro players in NA. I'm not sure if you're a player, but Deimos was one of the only legitimate places for up start players in NA and I'm positive that players like bails, koma and more were happy to have been on that team.
The posts of some individuals in this thread highlight the drama and unneeded negative comments which are so prevalent now and days on this forum. (which i'll add generally come from random ass community members who know nothing about the inter-workings of the players/teams/events in NA)
basically this: + Show Spoiler +On May 05 2014 11:48 Plansix wrote:
Some thing about hindsight being 20/20 and if it was easy, everyone would do it.
Sorry to hear it didn't work out guys. I'm sure you tried hard and did the best you could.
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, which comes with me no longer being able to financially support the team since I got laid off without much notice, and my trade being in a very dry season, cannot find a job.
Maybe I should add this in, I wasn't building the team off getting sponsors fast, I unexpectedly got laid off from my job, and couldn't get another one. I was forced to rely on getting sponsors shortly after I started the DETL when I lost my job.
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On May 04 2014 13:12 TRaFFiC wrote:
One pet peeve of mine is having less than Master league casters. It seems to me that you simply can't have lower league players casting GMs. But hey, qualified people with shit tons of free time aren't always available.
Even though I am a high Master league player, I hear this all the time and I couldn't disagree more. So many people seem to think you don't know shit unless you've played at a high level, which is completely false.
I don't have to be a Dentist too look at someone's teeth and say they look nice. There are very respected experts in almost every walk of life who have never proven themselves at the highest level. All kinds of professional sports (Football, Basketball, Hockey, Soccer etc) have casters, analysts, writers and all sorts of respected people working in that sport who never played one minute of high level competition...
Someone doesn't have to practice 12 hours a day and have ridiculous reaction time + dexterity + apm to be a student of the game, know builds, know maps, know what counters what, know about the community, and be a good at articulating words during a match. Those things are completely unrelated to their ladder rank.
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Sorry you guys gotta close up, but damn good effort. We don't really see too much of that from the NA scene nowadays, besides MLG and CSL. I applaud your efforts and hope that you can find a place that better suits what you are looking for.
GLHF!
^And to the post above, that is why we dont see any caster tournaments and more people trying to emerge as casters because of the elitist attitude this community puts forth sometimes. Casters don't want to play because if they play poorly or if they just get destroyed by pros like ToD, Ret and Demuslim they would be shafted for not being good enough and their integrity with the game becomes questioned, for no reason at all.
They have anxiety thinking that they have to be at a certain level to break through, but can't/might not be able to. Casters and personalities on camera should be the ones studying the game (which comes natural with commentating more), and working on their interpersonal and on-camera skills and personality.
Something Deimos did was good in that they had casters from their own organization and did YouTube stuff involved with their team league. Commendable work by such a grassroots sort of group.
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On May 05 2014 07:50 SC2CTL wrote:
I don't think you guys understand what's going on here?
Tbatz was putting up his own money to fund Deimos and couldn't do it anymore. The DETL was a last ditch effort to attempt at sustainability. They weren't expecting it to be a smash success but they were hoping it would be. I'm quite confident it was known that unless the DETL got them noticed by a big sponsor, they would be closing up shop.
That's why it would be incredibly stupid to accept rifkin's offer; maybe it would have been better for them in the long-haul if they were committed to 3-4 seasons of DETL (though I still doubt it), but they needed sponsors for Deimos immediately. They didn't get any, and so are closing up shop.
Everyone knows how to slowly build an audience. That's not what Deimos needed. They needed a miracle season and they didn't get one. Now they're gone. I'm at peace with that. But when you're looking to get your company noticed, you don't put another company's sign on your door.
Does this mean that Deimos has just shut down its professional roster and going back to a lower-league clan or has it just exterminated completely?
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On May 05 2014 13:29 -Kyo- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2014 00:24 knOxStarcraft wrote:On May 04 2014 18:33 -Kyo- wrote:
The posts, and caster posts especially, in this thread are pretty disgusting. The devolution of this forum overall is saddening.
Anyway, my 2c: From a player perspective Deimos managers were very nice and inclusive to me even when I was not sure what I wanted to do when I was actively playing the game. Moreover, their players were incredibly nice and overall this team must have had tons of great times together from what I could tell. It's sad to see another NA team go.
NA eSports continues to backtrack when things like this happen. If people cannot recognize how big of a deal things like this are then in a few years when all that's left is Liquid and EG you can stop for a few seconds and think why there are not any amazing amateur players coming up in the NA SC2 scene anymore. Though, you could be like a number of individuals in this thread and just write them off as a team who didn't try and had a "bad plan", hah.
Good luck in the future guys! Siphon I know you got contacted :p You shit on constructive criticism then proceed to say you're saddened by the devolution of the forum? lol alright buddy. You must have missed something. You cannot reasonably mean to constructively criticize anything in the OP considering the team is disbanding - unless you think by criticizing their plans and structure they'll magically come back and fix everything just for you - or that some other organization that has the means to actually address their problems won't do so without your criticism? Lol...
That's a ridiculous thing to say. What part of learning from other people's mistakes do you not understand? Of course you should point out things that could have been done better because then the next team/upstart that comes along hopefully won't make the same mistake and thus get the same outcome.
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On May 07 2014 07:09 Crot4le wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2014 07:50 SC2CTL wrote:
I don't think you guys understand what's going on here?
Tbatz was putting up his own money to fund Deimos and couldn't do it anymore. The DETL was a last ditch effort to attempt at sustainability. They weren't expecting it to be a smash success but they were hoping it would be. I'm quite confident it was known that unless the DETL got them noticed by a big sponsor, they would be closing up shop.
That's why it would be incredibly stupid to accept rifkin's offer; maybe it would have been better for them in the long-haul if they were committed to 3-4 seasons of DETL (though I still doubt it), but they needed sponsors for Deimos immediately. They didn't get any, and so are closing up shop.
Everyone knows how to slowly build an audience. That's not what Deimos needed. They needed a miracle season and they didn't get one. Now they're gone. I'm at peace with that. But when you're looking to get your company noticed, you don't put another company's sign on your door. Does this mean that Deimos has just shut down its professional roster and going back to a lower-league clan or has it just exterminated completely?
I am still running our lower league community team.
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