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On February 15 2014 08:27 Cinim wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 08:22 forsooth wrote:On February 15 2014 08:09 ProBot wrote:On February 15 2014 07:14 Complete wrote:
...It's slightly ridiculous that their response to this is to make it public to get the community mad at them.
... How do you figure? What should they have done? waited for this season to be over and fuck over tous les personnes francais!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!? I think they're doing the right thing, especially if they have exhausted all other options. They weren't disrespectful or unprofessional about ESL in the post, just stated the problem, the facts from their side, and called it a day. Stating that WCS has banned French organizations from streaming when the issue is in fact all about the platform is a very deliberate way of trying to re-frame the issue to make ESL look bad by implying that they have some kind of prejudice against France or the French language. It's a distortion that sidesteps the real issue in favor of something inflammatory and misleading. It's funny and quite ironic that exactly what you are claiming that the guy from O'gaming is doing to ESL is what you are doing right now the other way around, please think before doing your next comment  Especially because to the french community, outting Dailymotion and banning them completely from covering the tournament is almost the same thing ^^
Intent is not difficult to discern when an organization makes a "statement" of that sort. They want to make themselves look victimized and make ESL look like the bad guys. It's even more obvious now that Carmac has posted clarification that the organization who claimed they were not allowed to broadcast WCS Europe is in fact permitted to do so, provided they use the official partner's platform.
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On February 15 2014 08:34 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 08:27 Cinim wrote:On February 15 2014 08:22 forsooth wrote:On February 15 2014 08:09 ProBot wrote:On February 15 2014 07:14 Complete wrote:
...It's slightly ridiculous that their response to this is to make it public to get the community mad at them.
... How do you figure? What should they have done? waited for this season to be over and fuck over tous les personnes francais!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!? I think they're doing the right thing, especially if they have exhausted all other options. They weren't disrespectful or unprofessional about ESL in the post, just stated the problem, the facts from their side, and called it a day. Stating that WCS has banned French organizations from streaming when the issue is in fact all about the platform is a very deliberate way of trying to re-frame the issue to make ESL look bad by implying that they have some kind of prejudice against France or the French language. It's a distortion that sidesteps the real issue in favor of something inflammatory and misleading. It's funny and quite ironic that exactly what you are claiming that the guy from O'gaming is doing to ESL is what you are doing right now the other way around, please think before doing your next comment Especially because to the french community, outting Dailymotion and banning them completely from covering the tournament is almost the same thing ^^ Intent is not difficult to discern when an organization makes a "statement" of that sort. They want to make themselves look victimized and make ESL look like the bad guys. It's even more obvious now that Carmac has posted clarification that all of the organizations who claimed they were not allowed to broadcast WCS Europe are in fact permitted to do so, provided they use the official partner's platform.
Let's not get overeager, Carmac only wrote that streaming pattform was a point of contention. We do not know whether
(a) ESL imposes a twitch exclusive rule onto all streamers (though that would make sense to me personally) and whether
(b) this was the point over which the parties could not agree on.
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If ESL signed an exclusive deal with Twitch then they have to live up to that and tell the French organizations it's Twitch or nothing.
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On February 15 2014 08:28 Cinim wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 08:26 JustPassingBy wrote:On February 15 2014 08:16 Cinim wrote:On February 15 2014 08:14 JustPassingBy wrote:On February 15 2014 07:52 Cinim wrote:On February 15 2014 07:44 Carmac wrote:
It is not true that OgamingTV, Millenium or Team aAa were barred from broadcasting WCS Europe. OgamingTV is free to broadcast WCS Europe on Twitch, the broadcasting partner of WCS Europe, next Tuesday.
Obtaining broadcasting rights for WCS Europe was not something that we made difficult and the fact that the league has been broadcasted in five different languages is evidence of that.
The ESL and Blizzard have nothing against OgamingTV broadcasting the StarCraft II World Championship Series in French. We have the highest regard and admiration for the quality of their work and see them as a valued supporter of the StarCraft II community.
The conversations about the conditions which OgamingTV would want to stream WCS Europe under (including broadcasting on platforms other than Twitch) were ongoing in good faith and we hope those will continue.
Michal Blicharz
Managing Director Pro Gaming, ESL Well, I hope that is true, and also that you allow them to stream on whatever platform they choose, at the end of the day openness like that will benefit all of you the most Wouldn't put my hopes up high. Blizzard made it clear that Twitch is the official partner for WCS, so I doubt that we will ever see the main events of WCS on a plattform other than Twitch. I don't like it either, but that decision has been made over half a year ago. I said it before, saying it again now. Twitch tv is according to blizzard NOT the official partner. ESL might say it is for EU but blizzard has never announced anything, please read their full report about it... Twitch is a partner of WCS but there is no requirement that you only stream on that platform, Aren't you contradicting yourself? I claimed that Twitch is the (or 'a') official partner for WCS, then you say that it is "NOT the official partner" only to say "Twitch is a partner of WCS" afterwards... Anyways, my point is that according to blizzard's WCS site, Twitch is a partner of WCS. So even if there is no clause of having to broadcast on Twitch exclusively, it wouldn't be a wise decision to sour the relationship too your partner by broadcasting on a competitor. Yes true, I phrased that a bit wrongly according to what I meant to say. But still, since it's not an actualy requirement that they have to stream on twitch, it's really disgusting if that is indeed the reason that they exclude them from covering the event.
Show proof of this statement.
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This is ESL's way of punishing France for the irreversible damage Stephano's and FireCake's swarm hosts have wrought upon the minds of everyone. It's good to see someone taking action. BRING TOD THEIR HEADS and French SC2 will be restored.
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I'd say it's more than slightly ridiculous, and highly unproffesional. O'Gaming basicaly shot themselfs in a foot in any incoming bussines negotiations. If it was me to make a deal with them... i just wouldn't make anymore deals with them.
Ogaming guys just dont care they make business in France and have a very high credibility/reputation on their market so honestly, this doesnt matter much.
Plus this issue of french streams have been experienced in the past, this is not an issue that appeared yesterday, On the bright side making it pubic is forcing ESL to react so why not ?
Seeing the 2 posts of Kerri/Carmac, its pretty clear that the real problem here is money. OGaming/aAa/Millenium probably dont want to give ESL a percentage of their streaming benefits (could be that or they just dont agree on the percentage).
I think ESL probably wants to apply to the French Partnership the same rate than they apply to any other non ESL streamers (Mori, TakeTv, BasetradeTV etc. )
But you have to understand its just not the same production value. They just want to make a good show, please fans, attract fans, (yeah, attract, because the regular french guy who will buy sc2 and begin to follow stream etc. will do so through french streams and not through english ones).
They must support about maybe 10/12 wage earning employee to do so. (not like Take, Basetrade etc.) So they just cannot share the stream revenues with ESL.
I dont know the details of contracts (exclusivity etc.) but the main goal of all this is promoting esports right ?
I really wish they can sort it out. I am confident.
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WCS Season 3 finals was broadcasted on Dailymotion btw.
I understand that they have to brodcast it on Twitch but they can't afford it. They would lose money and moreover, Twitch.tv is a mess if you have the wrong Internet provider.
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On February 15 2014 07:05 Holytornados wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 07:03 Kylo55 wrote:
No statement from ESL yet. And whining like that is higly unproffesional. I wouldnt like to work with O'Gaming after that. Don't know what they expect to achieve with trying to make a drama. IMO, if the French streams offered to use Twitch and were still denied, it is on ESL
They weren't that is why this has come about. All WCS events are broadcast on twitch now, so it would be counter productive for a partnership between WCS events and Twitch to have their events broadcast on a different streaming platform.
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On February 15 2014 09:32 LimeNade wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 07:05 Holytornados wrote:On February 15 2014 07:03 Kylo55 wrote:
No statement from ESL yet. And whining like that is higly unproffesional. I wouldnt like to work with O'Gaming after that. Don't know what they expect to achieve with trying to make a drama. IMO, if the French streams offered to use Twitch and were still denied, it is on ESL They weren't that is why this has come about. All WCS events are broadcast on twitch now, so it would be counter productive for a partnership between WCS events and Twitch to have their events broadcast on a different streaming platform.
Don't drink the Kool-aid. What about it is counter-productive?
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Funny thing is even MLG allowed O'Gaming to broadcast their events for free (yes for free when you had to pay your english stream and yes on daily ) in 720p back when MLG still did huge tournaments.
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it would be counter productive for a partnership between WCS events and Twitch to have their events broadcast on a different streaming platform.
(Im making assumptions here)
Counter-productive for who ? For esports/WCS/Blizzard or for ESL ?
What is the point of the partnership with Twitch ? Higher CPM for the official streamer that is ESL (I guess, could be Twitch frontpage favoured or a bunch of other advantages). So basically if The French Partnership (Ogaming/aAa/Millenium) streams on Twitch (even if they don't have to share revenues with ESL) they don't benefit from the Twitch partnership (once again, I guess). So basically they bring a good production value which they can't make profitable. THAT is counter-productive.
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On February 15 2014 09:45 shid0x wrote:
Funny thing is even MLG allowed O'Gaming to broadcast their events for free (yes for free when you had to pay your english stream and yes on daily ) in 720p back when MLG still did huge tournaments.
i am not sure how this is relevant
if you have a contract with a sponsor like twitch.tv, you need to fullfil their demands, that's how it works. i don't know why esports is making a drama out of this. it's just a simple business thing, stream on twitch and everything will be good.
i am curious though, if this is a standard for everyone, how come russians are streaming on own3d and other streaming sites?
not sure how this is possible then.
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Well I personally find a few mistakes in the base of all this:
1 - Blizz hasn't thought of this issue when they released the rule-book of 2014 WCS
2 - There's no warning system at all.. Just - bam - you're banned
3 - This is a scandal of big sizes - we're literally talking like more than 20, or maybe even more than 25% of viewership of WCS.. I really think that the French organizations are by far the most dedicated and most potent (ofc. except for the main ESL stream)
4 - I hope this gets solved quickly, cause the main problems the French guys have is that (I think at least, someone correct me for this) there isn't an official rule to what the "penalties" or what the "percentages" are if this rule is "omitted"..
I seriously think that this should probably result into a "final rule" for anyone else.. Though it would possibly be Blizz shooting themselves in the foot there, cause that will either encourage other nation's providers into making their own content, or discourage in participating the whole thing
And I also think that it's a bad policy to "monopolize" the streaming platform.. Perhaps there should be some Blizz/Twitch/ESL/Client-Platform-Candidate oficialized rules I think.. Otherwise it is really bad.. Now everyone can say that they have the right to represent their own side instead (and what is actually bad in this is that indeed - both sides have the rights to represent, cause there's no defined rules for this "scenario" to say the least)
I am no lawyer either, but usually in organization rules such as this - think that there should be pre-defined violations I think
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On February 15 2014 09:23 v_lm wrote:Show nested quote +I'd say it's more than slightly ridiculous, and highly unproffesional. O'Gaming basicaly shot themselfs in a foot in any incoming bussines negotiations. If it was me to make a deal with them... i just wouldn't make anymore deals with them. Ogaming guys just dont care they make business in France and have a very high credibility/reputation on their market so honestly, this doesnt matter much. Plus this issue of french streams have been experienced in the past, this is not an issue that appeared yesterday, On the bright side making it pubic is forcing ESL to react so why not ? Seeing the 2 posts of Kerri/Carmac, its pretty clear that the real problem here is money. OGaming/aAa/Millenium probably dont want to give ESL a percentage of their streaming benefits (could be that or they just dont agree on the percentage). I think ESL probably wants to apply to the French Partnership the same rate than they apply to any other non ESL streamers (Mori, TakeTv, BasetradeTV etc. ) But you have to understand its just not the same production value. They just want to make a good show, please fans, attract fans, (yeah, attract, because the regular french guy who will buy sc2 and begin to follow stream etc. will do so through french streams and not through english ones). They must support about maybe 10/12 wage earning employee to do so. (not like Take, Basetrade etc.) So they just cannot share the stream revenues with ESL. I dont know the details of contracts (exclusivity etc.) but the main goal of all this is promoting esports right ? I really wish they can sort it out. I am confident.
I can´t comment on Basetrade, etc. but the TaKeTV production crew includes about 10 people as well, so they are in a pretty similar situation and don´t have problems with ESL.
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On February 15 2014 10:14 Xoronius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 09:23 v_lm wrote:I'd say it's more than slightly ridiculous, and highly unproffesional. O'Gaming basicaly shot themselfs in a foot in any incoming bussines negotiations. If it was me to make a deal with them... i just wouldn't make anymore deals with them. Ogaming guys just dont care they make business in France and have a very high credibility/reputation on their market so honestly, this doesnt matter much. Plus this issue of french streams have been experienced in the past, this is not an issue that appeared yesterday, On the bright side making it pubic is forcing ESL to react so why not ? Seeing the 2 posts of Kerri/Carmac, its pretty clear that the real problem here is money. OGaming/aAa/Millenium probably dont want to give ESL a percentage of their streaming benefits (could be that or they just dont agree on the percentage). I think ESL probably wants to apply to the French Partnership the same rate than they apply to any other non ESL streamers (Mori, TakeTv, BasetradeTV etc. ) But you have to understand its just not the same production value. They just want to make a good show, please fans, attract fans, (yeah, attract, because the regular french guy who will buy sc2 and begin to follow stream etc. will do so through french streams and not through english ones). They must support about maybe 10/12 wage earning employee to do so. (not like Take, Basetrade etc.) So they just cannot share the stream revenues with ESL. I dont know the details of contracts (exclusivity etc.) but the main goal of all this is promoting esports right ? I really wish they can sort it out. I am confident. I can´t comment on Basetrade, etc. but the TaKeTV production crew includes about 10 people as well, so they are in a pretty similar situation and don´t have problems with ESL.
They don't have any problems with ESL because they stream on Twitch.tv and they don't have to opportunity to have a better CPM. Maybe if they had the opportunity they would stream on Daily or SC2.TV.
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On February 15 2014 10:17 Aeromi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 10:14 Xoronius wrote:On February 15 2014 09:23 v_lm wrote:I'd say it's more than slightly ridiculous, and highly unproffesional. O'Gaming basicaly shot themselfs in a foot in any incoming bussines negotiations. If it was me to make a deal with them... i just wouldn't make anymore deals with them. Ogaming guys just dont care they make business in France and have a very high credibility/reputation on their market so honestly, this doesnt matter much. Plus this issue of french streams have been experienced in the past, this is not an issue that appeared yesterday, On the bright side making it pubic is forcing ESL to react so why not ? Seeing the 2 posts of Kerri/Carmac, its pretty clear that the real problem here is money. OGaming/aAa/Millenium probably dont want to give ESL a percentage of their streaming benefits (could be that or they just dont agree on the percentage). I think ESL probably wants to apply to the French Partnership the same rate than they apply to any other non ESL streamers (Mori, TakeTv, BasetradeTV etc. ) But you have to understand its just not the same production value. They just want to make a good show, please fans, attract fans, (yeah, attract, because the regular french guy who will buy sc2 and begin to follow stream etc. will do so through french streams and not through english ones). They must support about maybe 10/12 wage earning employee to do so. (not like Take, Basetrade etc.) So they just cannot share the stream revenues with ESL. I dont know the details of contracts (exclusivity etc.) but the main goal of all this is promoting esports right ? I really wish they can sort it out. I am confident. I can´t comment on Basetrade, etc. but the TaKeTV production crew includes about 10 people as well, so they are in a pretty similar situation and don´t have problems with ESL. They don't have any problems with ESL because they stream on Twitch.tv and they don't have to opportunity to have a better CPM. Maybe if they had the opportunity they would stream on Daily or SC2.TV.
I am just saying, that his argument (OGaming´s team size being to big to share twitch add revenue with ESL) is´nt really there, considering the similar sized team of TaKeTV does exactly that.
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On February 15 2014 10:06 VArsovskiSC wrote:
3 - This is a scandal of big sizes - we're literally talking like more than 20, or maybe even more than 25% of viewership of WCS.. I really think that the French organizations are by far the most dedicated and most potent (ofc. except for the main ESL stream)
I think you're vastly overrating the importance of french viewership, and especially the number of french viewers who would *only* watch a french stream.
I for one could not be tortured nor bought into watching a french stream of anything. All other french SC2 viewers I know only watch english streams, except one who has no problem watching english streams when it's the only option.
Sure, there *are* french viewers who can't understand/enjoy english casts and who would miss out on WCS if there was no french stream. But I highly doubt their number is as critical as some would like to make us believe. English *is* pretty widespread over here.
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On February 15 2014 10:14 Xoronius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 09:23 v_lm wrote:I'd say it's more than slightly ridiculous, and highly unproffesional. O'Gaming basicaly shot themselfs in a foot in any incoming bussines negotiations. If it was me to make a deal with them... i just wouldn't make anymore deals with them. Ogaming guys just dont care they make business in France and have a very high credibility/reputation on their market so honestly, this doesnt matter much. Plus this issue of french streams have been experienced in the past, this is not an issue that appeared yesterday, On the bright side making it pubic is forcing ESL to react so why not ? Seeing the 2 posts of Kerri/Carmac, its pretty clear that the real problem here is money. OGaming/aAa/Millenium probably dont want to give ESL a percentage of their streaming benefits (could be that or they just dont agree on the percentage). I think ESL probably wants to apply to the French Partnership the same rate than they apply to any other non ESL streamers (Mori, TakeTv, BasetradeTV etc. ) But you have to understand its just not the same production value. They just want to make a good show, please fans, attract fans, (yeah, attract, because the regular french guy who will buy sc2 and begin to follow stream etc. will do so through french streams and not through english ones). They must support about maybe 10/12 wage earning employee to do so. (not like Take, Basetrade etc.) So they just cannot share the stream revenues with ESL. I dont know the details of contracts (exclusivity etc.) but the main goal of all this is promoting esports right ? I really wish they can sort it out. I am confident. I can´t comment on Basetrade, etc. but the TaKeTV production crew includes about 10 people as well, so they are in a pretty similar situation and don´t have problems with ESL.
Ok thanks for the additional information. Maybe they have a different partnership with ESL though ? This kind of partnership could apply to the French Stream ? (maybe not I'm just assuming here)
I feel like there's a lot of things that need to be set clear, Kerri's post is a good thing imo because it will make things happen fast (Premier starts in 3 days...) but it has the really big drawback of being unclear / not enough specific.
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On February 15 2014 10:41 v_lm wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2014 10:14 Xoronius wrote:On February 15 2014 09:23 v_lm wrote:I'd say it's more than slightly ridiculous, and highly unproffesional. O'Gaming basicaly shot themselfs in a foot in any incoming bussines negotiations. If it was me to make a deal with them... i just wouldn't make anymore deals with them. Ogaming guys just dont care they make business in France and have a very high credibility/reputation on their market so honestly, this doesnt matter much. Plus this issue of french streams have been experienced in the past, this is not an issue that appeared yesterday, On the bright side making it pubic is forcing ESL to react so why not ? Seeing the 2 posts of Kerri/Carmac, its pretty clear that the real problem here is money. OGaming/aAa/Millenium probably dont want to give ESL a percentage of their streaming benefits (could be that or they just dont agree on the percentage). I think ESL probably wants to apply to the French Partnership the same rate than they apply to any other non ESL streamers (Mori, TakeTv, BasetradeTV etc. ) But you have to understand its just not the same production value. They just want to make a good show, please fans, attract fans, (yeah, attract, because the regular french guy who will buy sc2 and begin to follow stream etc. will do so through french streams and not through english ones). They must support about maybe 10/12 wage earning employee to do so. (not like Take, Basetrade etc.) So they just cannot share the stream revenues with ESL. I dont know the details of contracts (exclusivity etc.) but the main goal of all this is promoting esports right ? I really wish they can sort it out. I am confident. I can´t comment on Basetrade, etc. but the TaKeTV production crew includes about 10 people as well, so they are in a pretty similar situation and don´t have problems with ESL. Ok thanks for the additional information. Maybe they have a different partnership with ESL though ? This kind of partnership could apply to the French Stream ? (maybe not I'm just assuming here) I feel like there's a lot of things that need to be set clear, Kerri's post is a good thing imo because it will make things happen fast (Premier starts in 3 days...) but it has the really big drawback of being unclear / not enough specific.
I´m no insider, so I can´t provide information on how their deals are shaped, sorry.
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EPT
