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schimmetje
Netherlands1104 Posts
On February 19 2014 21:40 Faust852 wrote: So if Blizzard said no, there nothing to talk about, France is doomed and that's it. No, these French casters who want to stream Blizzard's tournament over another platform will have to find something else to do with their time. I know we like internet drama, but doomed, please.. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On February 19 2014 21:25 Nouar wrote: Last 9 months were already spend trying to find an agreement, which has still not been found. Will you continue to make statements without thinking them through or just reading the thread beforehand ? Cause if yes, no need to continue posting. I'd loooove for Totalbiscuit to look at your two posts about streamers, I'd get a good laugh seeing his face :-D edit : the money they could win would be used not only to pay for infrastructures and streamers, to reimburse loans, to prove to investors they are sustainable, to gain exposure and offer the community more good quality shows like Iron Squid or Nation Wars, etc, etc, etc... to *grow* and not die a slow death. Please, think for a second. These are not "fixed expenses". lol. Looked, laughed, moved on. There's no point trying to reason with people that have no industry knowledge. Their position is based on stubborn ignorance, you're better off trying to topple a mountain with your bare hands. | ||
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Maniak_
France305 Posts
On February 19 2014 17:53 Stabillo wrote: Because other arguments were countered/dismissed and it got back to this?I do not understand why the debate is about twitch and dailymotion. On February 19 2014 17:53 Stabillo wrote: On the other hand, the French scene is missing the WCS. Yesterday, there was no French stream. I even saw an Italian one popped out... As far as I know, there were quite a few non-english streams, and everyone was on Twitch. There was no french stream because there was no agreement about this. There may be one in the future, there may not be. That's all there is to it. More importantly, *did* the french scene miss out on WCS yesterday? Did no french here watch it? How do you know if other did or didn't? Are the viewship numbers by country out? "No french stream" does *not* mean "Nobody in France can watch WCS". On February 19 2014 17:53 Stabillo wrote: I think Blizzard, ESL and the TL community do not want to see no French stream. But they do want this stream to be on Twitch. And they have every right to want this if they don't have viable incentives to allow anything else. On February 19 2014 17:53 Stabillo wrote: Again, no french WCS stream does not mean that SC2 will disappear from the entire country.It could trigger lots of thing in our fragile scene and no one wants too see SC2 disappear in our scene. On February 19 2014 17:53 Stabillo wrote: My second point is about "professionalism". Good point. Let's talk about professionalism. Remember when NASL couldn't stream SC2 because of WCS? Did they go on the forums and on Reddit trying to rile up people to force Blizzard to allow them to do what they wanted to do because otherwise it'd be bad for them? I don't remember that. I do remember them adapting, moving to other games, doing what they could with what they had. And they finally got partnered for WCS. Even now, while it seems they've cut back on the SC2 production team, they're still dealing with what they have. *That's* professionalism. On February 19 2014 17:53 Stabillo wrote: Do you have numbers to support this or is this yet another over-exaggeration?With the labour cost in France, it's impossible to get a professionnal TV with twitch. There are tons of taxes, but it's not like only an elite part of the population can afford to employ people either. On February 19 2014 17:53 Stabillo wrote: So don't, deal with it, do something else and keep trying to find an agreement while showing that people are interested in this.Please let's consider it: no one wants to stream WCS on twitch today because you lose money ! And none of this can be done by bitching on TL. If production costs are too expensive to make streaming on Twitch financially viable, cut back on the production costs. I know, it's easy to say, I don't know anything about how this works, how much it costs and what they can actually do. Do you? And is it actually relevant to the matter at hand? Wanting the best revenues to allow for the most expensive production value by streaming on DM is one thing. Refusing to compromise and trying to force the issue by calling out to the masses, while using some of the cheapest debating tricks to willingly create drama, is quite another. On February 19 2014 21:02 Aeromi wrote: Says who? Is streaming WCS this year their only source of income? Are they unable to do something else? And even if it was the case, why should ESL be responsible for their financial stability? It'd be nice, but it's not their job and I'm guessing they have some other things to take care of first.If they stream on it, they will close in one year. If OGaming can't (or won't) find an agreement, can't (or won't) adapt or deal with it... well... too bad. Not ESL's fault. Blaming them won't accomplish anything. On February 19 2014 21:38 Aeromi wrote: They went to Versailles to meet Blizzard several times. They are close to Blizzard, they talk with them everyday. And so if no agreement can be found, the only solution is to unleash the public at their throats to force the issue, based on false assumptions? Yup, that's professional. Is the actual issue that there should be a french stream, or that OGaming "must" be allowed to stream WCS on DM, with their full production capacity and the costs that implies, else they'll collapse, the entire french scene will collapse with it and SC2 will vanish from the country? The line seems to be kind of blurry between the two. Is OGaming the *only* way a french stream could happen? And in the worst case, if it never happened, would it really be the end of the world? | ||
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VieuxSinge
France231 Posts
Ogaming was a great addition to the french sc2 community you cannot deny that. They often had more than 7000 viewers and thanks to dailymotion they could hire people, make them work, grow. Now that they are denied dailymotion by ESL who never gave a public explanation, they're dead. At least for the sc2 part. This is sad for sc2 and esport in general. Period | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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VieuxSinge
France231 Posts
On February 20 2014 00:48 Plansix wrote: ESL has provided a reason and it's because they don't use twitch. ABC can't show NBCs shows and just say "people like our channel better." It's sad they can't keep doing it, but it's not ESLs fault that ogaming refuses to use twitch. It is however quite sad ESL refuses to let Ogaming use something else's than twitch while the guideline for shoutcasters (by blizzard) says other platform can be used if ESL agrees ( http://wcs.battle.net/sc2/en/about/shoutcasters ). By the way people, Anoss from Ogaming just posted (in French) to clarify a little bit the situation. You can find the post (if you speak french) here : http://eu.battle.net/sc2/fr/forum/topic/9751085700?page=2#23 | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On February 20 2014 01:05 VieuxSinge wrote: It is however quite sad ESL refuses to let Ogaming use something else's than twitch while the guideline for shoutcasters (by blizzard) says other platform can be used if ESL agrees ( http://wcs.battle.net/sc2/en/about/shoutcasters ). By the way people, Anoss from Ogaming just posted (in French) to clarify a little bit the situation. You can find the post (if you speak french) here : http://eu.battle.net/sc2/fr/forum/topic/9751085700?page=2#23 Sounds like a private business matter than should be kept private. Nothing makes a business negotiation go better then airing every part of it out on the Internet. It really helps the sides be canded and honest when they know that any of their discussion could be posted online. Once again, this entire problem is solved if they just use twitch, rather then the french owned streaming service, Dailymotion. | ||
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VieuxSinge
France231 Posts
On February 20 2014 01:19 Plansix wrote: Once again, this entire problem is solved if they just use twitch, rather then the french owned streaming service, Dailymotion. Well... no. The whole point of using dailymotion is that it is the only platform that seems to be able to sustain a constant growth for ogaming while using twitch would mean too little revenues for the company (rent for studio, salaries for staff, etc). This means the problem cannot be solved by simply using twitch. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On February 20 2014 01:57 VieuxSinge wrote: Well... no. The whole point of using dailymotion is that it is the only platform that seems to be able to sustain a constant growth for ogaming while using twitch would mean too little revenues for the company (rent for studio, salaries for staff, etc). This means the problem cannot be solved by simply using twitch. Then it sounds like the business agreements they worked out prior to this prevent them from streaming WCS. Twitch and GOM worked out a deal with Blizzard. If daily motion doesn't have a similar deal, then it is their job to get one if they want to stream WCS. Once again, TV networks don't just show whatever show they want, they work out deals with the shows producers. | ||
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Maniak_
France305 Posts
On February 20 2014 00:41 VieuxSinge wrote: Where did I bash OGaming except about their initial post on TL which is blatantly manipulating facts in order to be more dramatic?Maniak_ your whole post makes no sense, you keep bashing and bashing Ogaming for no apparent reason except maybe your own point of view. I do have a problem with this post, but not with OGaming. I don't know them, I don't know what they do and I don't really care. I do agree that having a french WCS stream would be a good thing. I don't care if it's via OGaming or someone else. The main issue as was presented initially is the absence of a french stream, right? Or is it to find a way to sustain OGaming? I completely agree on the first part, not having a french stream is not good. I don't agree with the assumption that ESL should have to do everything in their power, no matter what it may cost *them*, so that OGaming could have everything they want. Agreements are usually made by compromising with each other. All I see here is people demanding that ESL&co do everything, or else they'll singlehandedly kill the entire french SC2 scene. Where are the suggestions about what OGaming could/should do on their end? Other alternatives? Why is everything on ESL? On February 20 2014 00:41 VieuxSinge wrote: As I said, I don't know them nor what they do. I don't doubt what you're saying though. They may very well be the one shining star in the french broadcasting scene.Ogaming was a great addition to the french sc2 community you cannot deny that. They often had more than 7000 viewers and thanks to dailymotion they could hire people, make them work, grow. Now that they are denied dailymotion by ESL who never gave a public explanation, they're dead. At least for the sc2 part. ESL said publicly that streaming on Twitch is allowed. That's pretty much all that's needed on their part, as far as the public is concerned. Remember that OGaming didn't give any information whatsoever about what's been done of their part either. And that's fine too. All of this is between them. And it should have stayed between them. This whole topic has been started from an OGaming post that wasn't exactly truthful, without giving much information, and an answer from Carmac, clear and to the point (streaming on Twitch is allowed), without giving much information either. From there, tons of theories have been thrown around, tons of arguments on either side, and all of this based on... having no idea what's actually been (and is probably still) happening behind the scenes. What's the point? We have *no* idea as to what was said between ESL/OGaming/Blizzard. *No* idea about the financial/contractual implications on either side. *No* idea about the actual impact on viewership. Who's to say ESL is not right this moment actively trying to solve the issue? On February 20 2014 00:41 VieuxSinge wrote: Agreed. It's sad, and it'd be nice if a solution was found.This is sad for sc2 and esport in general. Period So, since we agree, can we move on? Or do you have any suggestion as to what can be done from here? Or maybe it's time to go to the next series of arguments in the loop, about the french network infrastructure and how french ISPs are trying to kill Twitch by slowing down their traffic? | ||
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SSVnormandy
France392 Posts
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Niko_Thien
Germany2671 Posts
On February 20 2014 02:17 SSVnormandy wrote: also what was said by anoss and that disturb me a lot is that esl stopped to give their replay to ogamingtv 9 month ago, is that a global issue likd esl not sharing replays with anyone or is that specifically against ogaming. im sure i saw day9 daily using iem or wcs eu replay last year Uhm they just released the replays of IEM Cologne? | ||
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cortesmaltose
France8 Posts
For nine months the french WebTVs have been trying to get the right to broadcast WCS : ESL has made all the negotiations fail. All french WebTV are using Dailymotion as their streaming platform. Thanks to their partnership with Dailymotion they have been able to develop and grow : now they have studios and have been able to hire people and improve a lot the quality of their shows. The fact that ESL is forcing them to use Twitch.tv as their streaming platform is completely dumb : they won't do it because they would not make money out of it so ESL is just saying to the french viewers : "either you find somebody who is willing to cast WCS for basically no money on Twitch.tv or you watch WCS on the german or the english stream" This is for me really sad for Starcraft II and for esport in general. In France LoL has developed a lot also because at the moment many different WebTVs (at least 4) have been allowed to broadcast the LCS on the streaming platform they prefer.They have all chosen Dailymotion and Riot has never said :"No you should rather use Twitch.tv !" I think Riot is just happy to see that something like 30'000 altogether people are watching LCS every week in France ! Blizzard and ESL should just think a little bit and see wether their agreement with Twitch.tv is worth losing the french speaking Starcraft II community... | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
And let's not act like every SC2 fan in France won't be able to watch SC2 ever again, because that just isn't true. | ||
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Maniak_
France305 Posts
On February 20 2014 02:38 cortesmaltose wrote: Yup, they should.Blizzard and ESL should just think a little bit and see wether their agreement with Twitch.tv is worth losing the french speaking Starcraft II community... If they decide it's not worth it, they'll probably do something about it. If they can. They may not. If they decide it's worth it... what then? And again, as sad and crappy a situation this is for OGaming, this is *not* affecting the *entire* french speaking SC2 community. But it *is* a sad and crappy situation nonetheless. So... what? Do we need to find someone to hang or do we simply let them know that people would like a solution and let them decide what to do about it, if anything? | ||
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miniskirt
France487 Posts
On February 20 2014 02:12 Maniak_ wrote: Or maybe it's time to go to the next series of arguments in the loop, about the french network infrastructure and how french ISPs are trying to kill Twitch by slowing down their traffic? again, no ISP is trying to kill twitch DM is great in france because they have private peering with the french ISPs (because that's where most of their audience is), and that was long before Orange bought them completely Twitch just buys transit from poor quality tier1 ISP (level3), which is cheap because they make ISPs pay to peer with them no ISP is slowing down twitch, they have no reason to, if we had to point someone, it would be twitch, which doesn't seem to directly peer with any ISP in EU (from what I gathered during a livestream with a twitch employee last summer) MLG live for instance, uses akamai, which has much higher standards, and therefore better peering all around the world french people would have no problem to watch the streams on MLG live either but that wouldn't solve the issue (finally) revealed, DM is the only supplier of decent CPM in france, and millenium/ogaming would rather restream replays of LoL on DM than stream WCS live on twitch this is just what should really be in the TL news: french organizations wants to stream WCS on DailyMotion ESL refuses no statements from Blizzard | ||
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shid0x
Korea (South)5014 Posts
On February 20 2014 02:17 SSVnormandy wrote: also what was said by anoss and that disturb me a lot is that esl stopped to give their replay to ogamingtv 9 month ago, is that a global issue likd esl not sharing replays with anyone or is that specifically against ogaming. im sure i saw day9 daily using iem or wcs eu replay last year Business is business, when 2 companies are having issues between each other they always do small gestures like that, i work part time in a big company (communication department ) , i can tell you we do those kind of move too. Also after reading that anoss post, i'm sorry but i fail to empathize with the french streamers, it appears that after all its just a money issue / a dailymotion thing. Regarding the money issue it was a wrong move from millenium/ogaming to sign a sponsorship deal with dailymotion if they wanted to do wcs, the same happened with fnatic and own3dtv. I mean when you chose a sponsorship you have to be aware that the direct concurrent is not gonna be as open as it was before toward you...If WCS was sooo important to them then maybe they should have sign a partnership with twitch. This is just business, as someone who works in a communication department i see those kind of issue everyday...Nothing amazing. The best way would be for the french streamers to accept their fate and stream WCS with twitch and the rest of their events with Daily, a contract was sign between blizzard and twitch, its not because ONE ISP is having issue with it that the whole fucking contract will be changed (unless there is a special provision, but only blizz can know ) Otherwise you know what ? Those 3 association will simply not stream WCS and a new production should just join up with Tod, a rising french caster and just do it, i'm sure we can find people who know how to use xsplit and have a decent voice. | ||
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Maniak_
France305 Posts
 On February 20 2014 02:54 miniskirt wrote: And they're owned by the ISP that's also the closest to the entire french infrastructure, since they owned it until recently (do they still do? I never understood what they did exactly with the whole "FT is just another service provider, but not really, but kind of").DM is great in france because they have private peering with the french ISPs (because that's where most of their audience is) On February 20 2014 02:54 miniskirt wrote: Agreed.Twitch just buys transit from poor quality tier1 ISP (level3), which is cheap because they make ISPs pay to peer with them no ISP is slowing down twitch, they have no reason to, if we had to point someone, it would be twitch, which doesn't seem to directly peer with any ISP in EU (from what I gathered during a livestream with a twitch employee last summer) On February 20 2014 02:54 miniskirt wrote: There were ups and downs as well with them, but once upon a time it was possible to watch 4 MLG streams at once, at least two of them being in HD.MLG live for instance, uses akamai, which has much higher standards, and therefore better peering all around the world french people would have no problem to watch the streams on MLG live either Then again at that time, Twitch (or was it still JTV?) had also much better performance than it had last year. This year seems much better though, at least from what I experienced. Watched all of WCS EU and AM yesterday/last night without issues, as well as other friends with other ISPs on opposite sides of the country. This would have been impossible without a VPN 3 months ago. Not to say that's the general case either, but Twitch is not unwatchable for the *entire* country. And DM is not better than Twitch for the *entire* country either. And that's beside the point. But yes, Level3 is crap. And I'll stop editing this post now. This must be the tenth edit On February 20 2014 02:54 miniskirt wrote: but that wouldn't solve the issue (finally) revealed, DM is the only supplier of decent CPM in france, and millenium/ogaming would rather restream replays of LoL on DM than stream WCS live on twitch this is just what should really be in the TL news: Agreed as well. And that should be pretty much the end of the 'debate'. We don't know why ESL refuses, we don't know under which obligations they're operating, we can only let them know of who may be affected. Where's the need for pitchforks? Do we even know where to point them at? ESL? OGaming? Twitch? DM? Orange? Level3? | ||
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