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I would like to remind that this doesn't affect only french community for god sake. If you deny the 3 main organization to be able to stream the Major competition of sc2. Those structure will slowly die.
That means for non-french people that events like :
-Nation Wars
-Ironsquid
-Dailymotion cup
will not exist anymore or will be extremely difficult to produce.
Ironsquid was abandonned in 2013 mainly because of the WCS system was so utterly dominant it let no place for non WCS events. Ogamingtv couldn't organize anything international last year so they survived with french events.
Add that ESL chose very discutably aAa to cast WCS eu (any french could agree the aAa stream was bad compared to Ogamingtv or Millenium standards) and you understand why Ogamingtv is in such difficulty right now.
When they were able to cast some events : Homestory cup and WCS season 3 (thanks NASL) they skyrocketed the number of viewer even with being totally absent for the rest of the year. This must show how many people are backing them up.
Now don't worry for Ogaming on its own the structure will very likely survive with LoL Dota and other games. It is just the sc2 branch that will fall.
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On February 20 2014 03:01 Maniak_ wrote:
And they're owned by the ISP that's also the closest to the entire french infrastructure, since they owned it until recently (do they still do? I never understood what they did exactly with the whole "FT is just another service provider, but not really, but kind of").
the backend network is pretty much different for every ISP (=once your DSL line passes your fai DSLAM, the path is different)
On February 20 2014 03:01 Maniak_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2014 02:54 miniskirt wrote:
MLG live for instance, uses akamai, which has much higher standards, and therefore better peering all around the world
french people would have no problem to watch the streams on MLG live either There were ups and downs as well with them, but once upon a time it was possible to watch 4 MLG streams at once, at least of them being in HD. Then again at that time, Twitch (or was it still JTV?) had also much better performance than it had last year.
true (though i'm not sure MLG always used akamai, i just know it's true for the upcoming MLG live thing because i asked it in the AMA)
to close the debate about stream quality, people in french are free to choose an ISP with better peering with level3 (sfr and to a lesser extent, bouygue then numericable), though most of them rather complain (national sport, we should stream it) than think about changing ISP even though it's a piece of cake and there's not much difference in terms of services provided besides set top boxes (and peering...)
BUT, people being able to watch twitch in good quality isn't the issue, CPM and stream time efficiency is
On February 20 2014 03:01 Maniak_ wrote:
And that should be pretty much the end of the 'debate'. We don't know why ESL refuses, we don't know under which obligations they're operating, we can only let them know of who may be affected.
Where's the need for pitchforks?
it's another nice demonstration of french organizations being terrible at international PR (and english phrasing)
this sucks cause WCS could really help ogaming and they deserve it, i wish blizzard would intervene
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On February 20 2014 02:55 shid0x wrote:
Otherwise you know what ?
Those 3 association will simply not stream WCS and a new production should just join up with Tod, a rising french caster and just do it, i'm sure we can find people who know how to use xsplit and have a decent voice.
The problem is that you guys don't understand how much a large part of the french community cares about Ogamingtv for simple reasons :
-They contributed to the sucess of our barcraft Meltdown in Paris that is currently a lot animated by them. This place is like the core of French esport community.
-They organized a lot of live events that brought us together.
-They have a real fun show
Now tell me how 2 others random guys will replace them? My guess on that is if they do it it will just fail hard because a non negligible part of us will turn the stream on mainly to see a Pomf&Thud show.
As for ToD, he is imo in a very bad spot and I wouldn't want to be in his place right now. If he replaces the stream of aAa , Millenium and Ogamingtv it will be very hard for him and I don't think he wants to do that. He must be pressured from both sides ESL and the trio. I guess he would largely prefer be on the main stream for his excellent work.
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The question is: does any of the organizations dare to mess up their relationship with Twitch?
Of course streaming does not have to happen on Twitch exclusively, according to the rulebook, but I can't imagine it to be healthy for the relationship, if Blizzard partners with a streaming platform for one event and then allows streaming on another for the main event.
It's probably the same with the french streams, they also seem to have a good relationship with Dailymotion, seeing for example the sponsorship of the Dailymotion cup. With WCS undoubtedly being their biggest event in sc2 should they decide to cover it, do they really want to stream in on Twitch?
edit:
On February 20 2014 03:21 SSVnormandy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2014 02:55 shid0x wrote:
Otherwise you know what ?
Those 3 association will simply not stream WCS and a new production should just join up with Tod, a rising french caster and just do it, i'm sure we can find people who know how to use xsplit and have a decent voice. The problem is that you guys don't understand how much a large part of the french community cares about Ogamingtv for simple reasons : -They contributed to the sucess of our barcraft Meltdown in Paris that is currently a lot animated by them. This place is like the core of French esport community. -They organized a lot of live events that brought us together. -They have a real fun show Now tell me how 2 others random guys will replace them? My guess on that is if they do it it will just fail hard because a non negligible part of us will turn the stream on mainly to see a Pomf&Thud show. As for ToD, he is imo in a very bad spot and I wouldn't want to be in his place right now. If he replaces the stream of aAa , Millenium and Ogamingtv it will be very hard for him and I don't think he wants to do that. He must be pressured from both sides ESL and the trio. I guess he would largely prefer be on the main stream for his excellent work.
I think you don't understand how little we care about OGamingtv. at least compared to the ESL.
I at least am not going to take a stance against the ESL in a conflict where I do not see them at fault.
The ESL organized WCS EU has ties with Twitch and Ogamingtv has ties with Dailymotion. ESL does not want to allow streams outside of Twitch for WCS EU and Ogamingtv doesn't want to stream outside of Dailymotion. Nobody is at fault, it's a stupid situation.
I do hope that Blizzard gives up the exclusive partnership with Twitch though (either by dropping it or also partnering with Dailymotion for the french stream).
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On February 20 2014 03:09 SSVnormandy wrote:
Now don't worry for Ogaming on its own the structure will very likely survive with LoL Dota and other games. It is just the sc2 branch that will fall.
Which would be bad and should be avoided since the more quality content there is out there, the better it is.
However, this would imply that the main issue here is actually the survival of the SC2 branch of OGaming. This problem would remain even if someone else ended up doing the french stream for WCS, right?
And this issue is caused by quite a lot of external factors.
- contractual obligations between OGaming and DM
- contractual obligations between ESL/Blizzard and Twitch
- ad revenue differences between DM and Twitch
- peering issues
- whatever unknown obligations ESL are operating under (OGaming is tied to DM, ESL is tied to Twitch, how is that any less important? Of course there are going to be casualties when there are competing interests)
- <insert any other potential factor here>
I get that OGaming is getting desperate, but what's the solution exactly if no agreement can be made between them and ESL for reasons that we don't know and/or can't do anything about? Pitchforks? Camping in front of ESL's headquarters?
Let me venture a guess here: this a not a situation that's going to be easy to solve, especially not by venting and theorizing about hidden agendas in a forum. Even a TL forum.
Right now, OGaming cannot produce a french stream for WCS. There's not solution (publicly) in sight for the moment. That's not good.
That doesn't mean there won't ever be a french stream for WCS, but maybe not from OGaming.
That doesn't mean that OGaming will close its doors, or even its SC2 branch. If I remember correctly (not looking at the post right now), Anoss said that in the current situation, they'd be limited to small/medium events/productions. But did they say anything about the actual viability of the entire SC2 branch?.
And that doesn't mean than nobody in the country is able to watch WCS.
Let me venture another guess: the *vast* majority of french people learn at least one language in school. Mainly english. Then spanish/german.
You do not need to be fluent in english/whatever in order to understand a SC2 stream. It helps, but you can still enjoy the hell out of it. How many people don't understand a word of korean but are still excited when hearing a korean broadcast?
So yes, it's a bad situation, it'd be great if a solution was found, the sooner the better, losing good SC2 content is always bad, but it's not "WowTheWorldIsEndingRightNow" either. *And* if it was that easy to solve, it would be solved already. ESL doesn't strike me as a company out to kill the french SC2 scene.
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On February 20 2014 03:44 Maniak_ wrote:
So yes, it's a bad situation, it'd be great if a solution was found, the sooner the better, losing good SC2 content is always bad, but it's not "WowTheWorldIsEndingRightNow" either. *And* if it was that easy to solve, it would be solved already. ESL doesn't strike me as a company out to kill the french SC2 scene.
It's not the end of the world but it's much more worth fighting for than the other absurd discussion going on daily basis on this forum about the OPness of the FOTM race. Also I do not know nothing about ESL true motive but I hope there is no animosity between the two organisations
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On February 20 2014 04:34 SSVnormandy wrote:It's not the end of the world but it's much more worth fighting for than the other absurd discussion going on daily basis on this forum about the OPness of the FOTM race. Also I do not know nothing about ESL true motive but I hope there is no animosity between the two organisations I never got the impression, at least in this topic (filtering out all the noise), that this was something irrelevant that should be ignored. The issue is that this is not something that can be solved by shouting about it or pointing fingers (and clearly, the various conspiracy theories that got sparked from this *are* irrelevant).
What do you propose we should do? Bring it to the attention of Blizzard and ESL? Already done. Bring it to the attention of DailyMotion? Already suggested. No idea if it's been done or tried. And if this worked, it would not be in the near future. Such things tend to take time. Take it to the streets of France to ask for a better peering with Twitch?
What's missing here are ideas to do something about it. If it's even possible. Accusing ESL and bitching about them will not help. Arguing about who's better between Twitch and DM will not help. Rambling about the french network infrastructure will not help. Yes there are issues, but at least we don't have monthly bandwidth caps. We can watch streams all day long while downloading however many shows we want for 30€/month without having to even think about how much bandwidth we're using.
Others are struggling much more than France to keep their SC2 scene alive, and they don't come here to cry about it.
So, again, yes it's a bad situation, but what do you suggest we do about it?
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I, For One, Welcome Our new Twitch Overlords and I think the French should capitulate.  ♥
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On February 20 2014 05:41 Rustug wrote:I, For One, Welcome Our new Twitch Overlords and I think the French should capitulate. ♥
That's a given. It wouldn't be France otherwise 
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On February 20 2014 05:45 Maniak_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2014 05:41 Rustug wrote:I, For One, Welcome Our new Twitch Overlords and I think the French should capitulate. ♥ That's a given. It wouldn't be France otherwise
Well, in all honesty, if you think that genuinely, the debate is utterly pointless.
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On February 20 2014 20:35 Ishentar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2014 05:45 Maniak_ wrote:On February 20 2014 05:41 Rustug wrote:I, For One, Welcome Our new Twitch Overlords and I think the French should capitulate. ♥ That's a given. It wouldn't be France otherwise Well, in all honesty, if you think that genuinely, the debate is utterly pointless.
You've missed the joke I guess. ;-)
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Apparently still no french stream for group B.
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I fail to see the issue. It's a contractual obligation for ESL/WCS. Why can't they broadcast it on twitch? Does O'Gaming & Millennium TV have obligations to stream it on another service?
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On February 20 2014 22:10 GohgamX wrote:
I fail to see the issue. It's a contractual obligation for ESL/WCS. Why can't they broadcast it on twitch? Does O'Gaming & Millennium TV have obligations to stream it on another service?
Can you read the thread please ?
Yes, probably they have, and, twitch is not/less sustainable (in a nutshell), and doesn't work well here. If you want more detailed info on why (supposedly), read it.
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On February 20 2014 22:10 GohgamX wrote:
I fail to see the issue. It's a contractual obligation for ESL/WCS. Why can't they broadcast it on twitch? Does O'Gaming & Millennium TV have obligations to stream it on another service?
Ogaming makes more money on dailymotion, so they want to use that service. ESL says people have to use twitch because Blizzard and twitch partnered for this season of WSC. So what is good for Ogaminf is not good for WCS and the contract ax blizzard worked out.
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The problem is that actually, in France, even a 10k viewers stream would only be worth about 2$/hour with the ads and cpm problems, which is not even legal for a worker in France except if he works for free.
Find someone who would stream the entire WCS for free all the year long.
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On February 21 2014 06:10 Ishentar wrote:
The problem is that actually, in France, even a 10k viewers stream would only be worth about 2$/hour with the ads and cpm problems, which is not even legal for a worker in France except if he works for free.
Find someone who would stream the entire WCS for free all the year long.
Nope, not at all, it's way more than that.
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Is there anything new on this issue ? Apparently there were no stream fr for the group C either. Anyway I went to the Underdogs live tonight , it was great and I hope they can continue bring that much enjoyment around SC2. Hearing a whole bar shouting and supporting esport event feels really great! Hope we can do the same for WCS when dayshi will be fighting in Ro32
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Still No stream for French speaking people. I guess ESL prefer let the topic die and would be happy with no French stream at all.
Bad for Esport.
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Nope, not at all, it's way more than that.
Can you explain yourself ?
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EPT
