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On February 01 2014 17:46 Talack wrote:
They honestly should make MSC be extremely slow away from a nexus similar to the queen on creep. That unit should 100% be extremely risky to use offensively.
Thank you! Finally something non-bias. Either both terran and zergs need more options where attack AND defends exist, or toss should have some taken away.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 01 2014 17:45 SeventhPride wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 17:45 Whitewing wrote:
Protoss all-ins are absolutely all-in. That's the freaking definition. Putting quotation marks around it doesn't change the fact. If it's not all-in, then it's just pressure. If it's all-in, then when it fails you lose. If I do an 8 gate all-in off 2 bases and you hold it without losing a base or drones, I just plain die. That's an all-in. If I do a 4 gate +1 pressure and fail to snipe your third, I'm behind, but not dead, it was not an all-in.
You have other attacks too you can do at all phases of the game. Plenty of protoss losses occur to mass speedling all-ins busting the wall, or big mutalisk switches that flat out kill nexii. You havent seen gsl games where a toss "all ins" but ends up not being an all in? Have you not listen to casters? The problem with toss is its so easy to come back after a supposed "all in" with the photon overcharge and forcefields. 3 sentries can ff a ramp until the game ends. Zergs LOSE because of the counter attacks that happened after an all in and they can't defend it. Toss CAN. This is what terrans are whining about now, and if terrans with their mules are complaining about toss come backs after all ins then you know shit is going down. So stop saying zergs all ins are like toss cause we cant do shit about counters after we failed an all in.
Um, the casters are usually just wrong. Had that thought occurred to you? Just because they call it an all-in doesn't make it one.
So what I'm hearing is: Toss shouldn't be able to defend attacks with forcefields, toss should not be able to make comebacks at all, toss should not be able to engage in base trades with zerg at all or split their army whatsoever and defend counter attacks.
Protoss literally cannot have as many units as zerg can until the lategame. They just can't. The way production works and the costs of the units, and the fact that zerg is up a base combines to mean that protoss has to be able to engage more efficiently than zerg or it can never win. That means it needs some kind of skill or trick, or simply vastly more powerful units to be able to deal with being outnumbered. If you decide to park a bunch of speedlings outside the toss base, that protoss can literally never move out unless he can defend the counter attack. If you take away Forcefields and photon overcharge, you've made it so that protoss can never attack ever.
And um, if you all-in as toss, and your opponent holds it, the correct action is not to immediately counter all-in the protoss.
On February 01 2014 17:48 SeventhPride wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 17:46 Talack wrote:
They honestly should make MSC be extremely slow away from a nexus similar to the queen on creep. That unit should 100% be extremely risky to use offensively. Thank you! Finally something non-bias. Either both terran and zergs need more options where attack AND defends exist, or toss should have some taken away.
The act of agreeing with you is not the definition of non-bias. Everyone has a bias, I have a bias, you have a bias.
I'm not saying protoss doesn't necessarily need a nerf somewhere, I think the msc vision should be nerfed, it's just silly. But there is no change to PvZ needed whatsoever from a balance perspective.
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On February 01 2014 17:49 Whitewing wrote:Protoss all-ins are absolutely all-in. That's the freaking definition. Putting quotation marks around it doesn't change the fact. If it's not all-in, then it's just pressure. If it's all-in, then when it fails you lose. If I do an 8 gate all-in off 2 bases and you hold it without losing a base or drones, I just plain die. That's an all-in. If I do a 4 gate +1 pressure and fail to snipe your third, I'm behind, but not dead, it was not an all-in. You have other attacks too you can do at all phases of the game. Plenty of protoss losses occur to mass speedling all-ins busting the wall, or big mutalisk switches that flat out kill nexii.
You havent seen gsl games where a toss "all ins" but ends up not being an all in? Have you not listen to casters? The problem with toss is its so easy to come back after a supposed "all in" with the photon overcharge and forcefields. 3 sentries can ff a ramp until the game ends. Zergs LOSE because of the counter attacks that happened after an all in and they can't defend it. Toss CAN. This is what terrans are whining about now, and if terrans with their mules are complaining about toss come backs after all ins then you know shit is going down.
So stop saying zergs all ins are like toss cause we cant do shit about counters after we failed an all in.
[/QUOTE]
Um, the casters are usually just wrong. Had that thought occurred to you? Just because they call it an all-in doesn't make it one.
So what I'm hearing is: Toss shouldn't be able to defend attacks with forcefields, toss should not be able to make comebacks at all, toss should not be able to engage in base trades with zerg at all or split their army whatsoever and defend counter attacks.
And um, if you all-in as toss, and your opponent holds it, the correct action is not to immediately counter all-in the protoss.[/QUOTE]
Now you are putting words in my mouth. What i am saying is, Toss should NOT have a high chance of survivng after an all in same as zergs/terran. Blizzard needs to fix this problem asap. And why should we not be able to immediately counter all- in the toss when they can just warp in after WE failed and kill our base? You are letting your bias show through.
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On February 01 2014 17:38 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 17:33 pure.Wasted wrote:On February 01 2014 17:17 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 17:14 Dvriel wrote:On February 01 2014 17:05 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 17:01 Dvriel wrote:On February 01 2014 16:44 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 16:38 Dvriel wrote:On February 01 2014 10:58 Musicus wrote:On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:[quote] + Show Spoiler +That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change. Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while. On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first. Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning... Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink. This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO... Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about. I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2? I've tried all sorts of builds I want to work in this game, many of them don't work. I don't come in here whining about not being able to go only stargate units in PvT or only make units out of the robotics facility. I don't recall zergs complaining about not being able to reliably go ONLY zerglings in ZvP. Some things work, some don't. Just because it's your preferred playstyle does not mean it must be balanced against the entire enemy race. I don't get to go carriers, as much as I want that to be viable. I get that you like mech and want to play it, and that it's fun for you. However, it is not a balance issue that mech does not work vs. protoss. It is gripe you have about the way the race works yes, but complaining that it is unfair that mech doesn't work is like protoss complaining that mass carriers doesn't work. If you want mech to work vs. protoss with approximately the same strength as bio, either bio needs to be weakened a little, or protoss needs to be strengthened a little somewhere else. You cannot add options to one race without increasing its strength: the very option existing is a buff. Well, going only Stargate units in PvT is absolutely viable if the Terran plays mech. Opening with oracles,into voids or Phoenix with 2 base PO is posible. If the T goes BIO, you are dead, but this doesn mean you can compair going full Stargate,full Robo or Mass lings with going mech. MECH are Wm,Hellions,Hellbats,Tanks,Thors,Banshees,Ravens and even BCs or Medivacs(I use then to drop WM or HEllbats). Are you really gonna tell me all this units are the same as "mass lings"? Mech is a Style. You cant go mass carriers vs BIO Terran, but they shred everything if the Terran goes mech and allows you to mass them. Actually Protoss anti mech options are so many and so strong that its almost imposible to win and you only need to amove your Immortal/Archon/Collosi army into 15 presieged tanks. You call this "NORMAL"? The entire Protoss army for SC2 is designed to shut mech pretty hard: Charge to get quickly closer to siege lines.Blink doing the same.Collosi helping from behind,IMMORTALS shredding everything. Archons,Oracles,Void Rays...You need more? So what you're saying is, if the terran voluntarily lets me do it, I can do whatever I want? Thanks for the tautology. On February 01 2014 17:02 Tresher wrote:On February 01 2014 16:44 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 16:38 Dvriel wrote:On February 01 2014 10:58 Musicus wrote:On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:[quote] + Show Spoiler +That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change. Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while. On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first. Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning... Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink. This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO... Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about. I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2? I've tried all sorts of builds I want to work in this game, many of them don't work. I don't come in here whining about not being able to go only stargate units in PvT or only make units out of the robotics facility. I don't recall zergs complaining about not being able to reliably go ONLY zerglings in ZvP. Some things work, some don't. Just because it's your preferred playstyle does not mean it must be balanced against the entire enemy race. I don't get to go carriers, as much as I want that to be viable. I get that you like mech and want to play it, and that it's fun for you. However, it is not a balance issue that mech does not work vs. protoss. It is gripe you have about the way the race works yes, but complaining that it is unfair that mech doesn't work is like protoss complaining that mass carriers doesn't work. If you want mech to work vs. protoss with approximately the same strength as bio, either bio needs to be weakened a little, or protoss needs to be strengthened a little somewhere else. You cannot add options to one race without increasing its strength: the very option existing is a buff. Stopped reading at the bolded part. Cant believe people still dont get it that going Bio OR Mech is a unique thing to the Terran race just like Zerg can mass/swarm Units and Protoss has few but strong Units. Obviously never played BW. LoL. "Its Avilo"... Nice way to discuss,huh? Who are you man? Mvp or maybe Polt with a name for TL? Avilo at least try mech. He is not a balance whiner. He is the only man saying the real f.... true about SC2. None of the Progamers dare to even say what are they really thinking and you disrespect him so easily...We are talking about mech and you are saying "marines are dangerous and quick." COME ON, PLEASE, REALLY??? WTF? Can you show me a single VOD or BO when Terran is aggressive in early game TvP¿???? When was the last time Protoss Progamer lost PvT at 7:30 min mark???? WHEN?
Blink all in forcé "certain adaptations"??? Have you ever played Terran, please? Come on, try it man and let me see your face, with 4 bunkers in Deadalus or Heavy Rain, stim,shields,medivacs and+1 at 7 mins while the blink all in is at your ramp.3 mins later you go out and discover the Protoss got doublé forge,robo,Nexus mining and fully saturated in the natural, you try to drop WHILE attacking the natural, the PO is casted on both nexi and you need to go home, trying to expand to catch the Protoss finishig his Storm and 3-3 at 14 min.After all this I wanna see you winning without pulling SCVs OR going MECH hehe. Please,THINK BEFORE YOU WRITE I fully agree here. Sad thing is when you posted that the guy below you just made the same useless "lol its avilo" argument. He may overreact sometimes but some things are really clever and true. So you stopped reading and didn't bother to finish the rest of the argument. That's like someone saying "The world isn't flat, it's round, let me explain how we know..." And you stop reading after "The world isn't flat" because it doesn't fit your preconceptions. It also isn't exactly very helpful to any sort of discussion to read 2 sentences and then declare "I don't agree, I'm not reading the rest." That adds absolutely nothing. In BW, terran could not viably go bio in TvP except for some weird wonky all-in builds. It wasn't really a choice, the only matchup where bio was consistently viable for them was TvZ. It wasn't a choice then either. If you went bio in TvP, you pretty much lost the moment reavers hit the field. What I am saying is IF Terran decides to go MECH YOU WILL BE ABLE TO MASS CARRIERS. Terran need to turtle on 3 bases to secure 6 gases to be able to upgrade as well as you with two armories and research at least Blue Flame for HEllbats,make ghosts with Moebius and cloak upgrade,as well as banshees and Ravens with their upgrades. Can you add all this to turrets and Sensor towers to prevent DTs and Warp Prism drops in the main and try to calculate the gas required. And what I'm saying is that Terran has to choose to allow me to do it. If Zerg decides to go up to 100 drones before making units, I can go 3 nexus before gateway. That does not mean it's always viable regardless of what my opponent chooses to do, like people seem to want mech to be. Some strategies simply are weaker than others, or have vulnerabilities that others don't. And that's a good thing. Imagine, for a moment, if carrier rushing was viable in every matchup against every build regardless of what the opponent did. Wouldn't that suck? QXC did a good job of explaining this in a video a while back: if both bio and mech are always viable options and both are always very strong choices, protoss is pretty much fucked. On February 01 2014 17:16 pure.Wasted wrote:On February 01 2014 17:14 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 17:09 Dvriel wrote:On February 01 2014 16:53 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 16:48 SC2Toastie wrote:
Oracles at the top level disappear indeed. The reason is what you don''t seem to recognise:
Terrans have adapted their builds to hold oracles easilly. BUT that also means builds cannot be aggressive because you need marines at home. That also means you need to invest in defence infrastructure before you can even know whether you need it or not. The mere precence of the oracle forces adaptations -> just as the Tempest completely disables the Battle Cruiser from really working without mass raven support. Protoss builds have been changed to adapt to many things terrans can do as well. Old protoss builds like the 1 colossus, take a third, go straight to templar is completely dead. Protoss can't have map control when medivacs are coming out around the 10 minute mark, no matter how badly we want it. There are times when toss can't be aggressive, and there are times when terran can't be aggressive. If terran can be aggressive whenever it wants regardless of what build toss attempts, do you really think that would be reasonable or fair? The safest build that exists in PvT for Protoss is the Rain build, where he invests in a freaking cannon early on in his mineral lines in case of mine drops, even without knowing whether one is coming or not. If you play greedier than that, you can outright die to mines. Is it unfair that protoss has to account for detection early on in the game or else risk dying to mines? Cloak banshees disappeared because protoss is forced to open detection almost every game. Hero (CJ entus one) died in a proleague match a short while ago vs. Maru because he skipped detection and got killed by cloak banshees. So Protoss adapted to those threats and now opens robo every game, or oracle (which also detects). If nothing cloaked shows up, oh well, we make do with what we have. It's not simply terran who is forced to do certain things because of their opponent's options. You make it sound like protoss can do literally anything it wants at any time, that is absolutely not the case. Banshee did not disappear because of Protoss going for detection every game. They are gone because of the 13 ranged Planetary NExus,man. You are affraind of WM drops? How many PvTs end before 10 mins with Terran win? Oh, one game in the last two years? Really?Oracle not only detecs, but also can kill a mínimum of FOUR workers and escape without dying,whle able to detect home and kill the WM.The WM drop means the T is going 1-1-1 and this is only one of the two builds Terran can go vs P.Now lets see how many does P got??? Terran are able to be aggressive ONLY when Medivacs are out and if their banshee or WM drop does not do enough damage, they got miles behind because of the investment.Protoss can Oracle,DT w/o Warp Prism and blink and still can expand.The difference is that Protoss can be aggerssive from the minute 4 sending a Zealot,MScore Stalker poke while Terran cant even rsik to go up the ramp... Banshees with cloak stopped showing up because protoss always has detection. Nexus cannon means nothing if you can't detect the cloaked banshee, and they even made cloak cheaper. It's purely the fact that protoss adapted to the threats and gets detection every game. We've seen from games like that CJ_Hero vs. Maru game where Maru flat out killed him with cloaked banshees that if you skip detection you die to it. The cannon has absolutely nothing to do with it. Oh, and a one base oracle build getting only 4 workers actually puts the protoss behind, so there goes that argument. Stuff protoss does costs money too bro, it's not free. It's all an investment. In ZvT, once speed finishes, zerg gets a nice long while to have map control, and there's pretty much nothing terran can do about it until medivacs are out. It's NORMAL for a race to have timings where they can't really be aggressive. This argument is silly. Protoss "adapted"??? You now have a unit that can be macro opened with out of a proxy Stargate that is guaranteed to get kills unless you fuck up, which doubles as a detector. What are you going to come up with next, Protoss "adapted" to Reaper aggression by nerfing the Reaper and getting PO? I'm sorry, what? Let me ask you this, given the investment in a stargate, an oracle, and the timings involved that require a delayed expansion, and the delayed robo tech and upgrades from forges, exactly how many kills does an oracle need to get to break even compared to a simple 1 gate expand into robo + double forge? And it's absolutely not guaranteed to get kills, I've seen pro games where the oracle flies in, runs smack into a bunch of marines and zooms out without a kill. I've seen oracles get 2-3 kills, I've seen games in proleague and GSL where an oracle flies in and just dies immediately. There is no guarantee. I didn't say that a proxy Oracle that gets 3 kills puts you as ahead of the Terran as getting double forge, Psi Storm, and Colossus tech. I said that it's a macro opening. Which it is. As for how many kills it gets, yeah, you're right, if the Protoss controls like crap and forgets that the Oracle can just leave the base and come back 30 seconds later from a different angle, it can get zero kills. But if they don't forget, then games like this happen. Really? You're going to point to a game where keen got behind from a proxy gate in his main that he failed to scout as evidence that proxy oracle is broken? Oh, he then, despite scouting his opponent's main with 2 reapers, and seeing no tech or expansion, decided to build a reactor and expansion simultaneously and therefore had no units to defend the oracle? Keen played absurdly greedy and ignored the info from scouting. The complete lack of tech in the main and no expansion should have been a huge tell.
I didn't bring that game up as evidence of Protoss being broken. I brought that game up as evidence of what Oracles are capable of when Protoss don't just throw them away, but instead use them throughout the entirety of a game. They deal MASSIVE damage to economies. The Terran's not going to have 5 Marines in each of his mineral lines, and even if he does, you can just park the production facilities and pick up free kills that way.
I wrote a lengthy, more general response to you on the last page, that I think you didn't see. This is pretty much nit-picking compared to that.
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On February 01 2014 17:49 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 17:45 SeventhPride wrote:On February 01 2014 17:45 Whitewing wrote:
Protoss all-ins are absolutely all-in. That's the freaking definition. Putting quotation marks around it doesn't change the fact. If it's not all-in, then it's just pressure. If it's all-in, then when it fails you lose. If I do an 8 gate all-in off 2 bases and you hold it without losing a base or drones, I just plain die. That's an all-in. If I do a 4 gate +1 pressure and fail to snipe your third, I'm behind, but not dead, it was not an all-in.
You have other attacks too you can do at all phases of the game. Plenty of protoss losses occur to mass speedling all-ins busting the wall, or big mutalisk switches that flat out kill nexii. You havent seen gsl games where a toss "all ins" but ends up not being an all in? Have you not listen to casters? The problem with toss is its so easy to come back after a supposed "all in" with the photon overcharge and forcefields. 3 sentries can ff a ramp until the game ends. Zergs LOSE because of the counter attacks that happened after an all in and they can't defend it. Toss CAN. This is what terrans are whining about now, and if terrans with their mules are complaining about toss come backs after all ins then you know shit is going down. So stop saying zergs all ins are like toss cause we cant do shit about counters after we failed an all in. Um, the casters are usually just wrong. Had that thought occurred to you? Just because they call it an all-in doesn't make it one. So what I'm hearing is: Toss shouldn't be able to defend attacks with forcefields, toss should not be able to make comebacks at all, toss should not be able to engage in base trades with zerg at all or split their army whatsoever and defend counter attacks. And um, if you all-in as toss, and your opponent holds it, the correct action is not to immediately counter all-in the protoss. Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 17:48 SeventhPride wrote:On February 01 2014 17:46 Talack wrote:
They honestly should make MSC be extremely slow away from a nexus similar to the queen on creep. That unit should 100% be extremely risky to use offensively. Thank you! Finally something non-bias. Either both terran and zergs need more options where attack AND defends exist, or toss should have some taken away. The act of agreeing with you is not the definition of non-bias. Everyone has a bias, I have a bias, you have a bias. I'm not saying protoss doesn't necessarily need a nerf somewhere, I think the msc vision should be nerfed, it's just silly. But there is no change to PvZ needed whatsoever from a balance perspective.
Problem was he wasn't agreeing with me. He said msc was the problem, I said toss flexbility is the problem. Please read.
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There is an underlying current in this sea of balance and imba crying: In BW there was an expected ratio of wins - Terran with the most wins, then Zerg and then Protoss. I sometimes I think us Terran players won't be happy until that is the case...
Avilo's rant was funny: His first 4 points are absurd...his 5th one I like...the 6th one...I would like to see tested...
Removing sight from the MSC completely changes the PvP match up...a significant range decrease in PO also would destroy the well fought for (although precarious) decrease in rock, paper, scissors aspect in PvP.
Rather than the tempest buff I would prefer to see this buff go to the carrier, along with removing interceptor costs.
The Hydra is buff is just wrong...soo many reasons...can't type them all...but lets test it more...how about 150/25? this I could accept...
The ghost buff is nice...2 base templar plays into 3rd or all ins can be silenced a little with this...
How many changes to the game are needed to mech viable v Protoss? I do not know but I know the number is very high...enough to upset the balance in the game at the moment...
But overall the game is really quite balanced. I love Terran, Zerg and Protoss and watch all the high end tournaments to see each player and race try and overcome adversity...
I am a happy Sc2 fan and player with nil complaints. Thank you TL and thank you Blizzrd for the great game!!!
Haters the world over can go get ...........
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On February 01 2014 17:48 SeventhPride wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 17:46 Talack wrote:
They honestly should make MSC be extremely slow away from a nexus similar to the queen on creep. That unit should 100% be extremely risky to use offensively. Thank you! Finally something non-bias. Either both terran and zergs need more options where attack AND defends exist, or toss should have some taken away.
I just want the game to be fun again...That's all.
And no, Mech is just...it's not fun. Protoss didn't enjoy sitting in their base doing almost nothing but build a near-unkillable army and neither does terran.
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Anyway back to the point, I do hope this hydralisk change doesnt go through but a buff else where on our anti air. I read somewhere that suggestions was made for hydras to have a seperate attack stats for anti air and I would hope blizz utilise that instead.
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On February 01 2014 17:25 SeventhPride wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 17:23 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 17:18 SeventhPride wrote:On February 01 2014 17:08 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Even as a Zerg I don't support, nor do I understand the hydralisk buff. Seems like another example of Blizzard messing with something that isn't broken again... ugh On February 01 2014 16:48 ZenithM wrote:
I don't know Kim... fixed Though I agree with you,You can't deny we need better anti-air though. And I meant a buff in strictly anti air I don't agree, your anti-air is pretty powerful overall. Fungal + corrupter fleet + spores and vipers for abduct pretty much make it impossible for a protoss air army to ever engage zerg without dying. Swarm hosts make it so templar support for storms is non-viable, and zerg just abducts the protoss to death. It's a really boring and lame game, but if you buff other anti-air, you're just going to see zerg waltz in and kill toss pretty much every time. Think about what you said, you have just listed a need for infestation pit,spire and hive just to defend against a airtoss. Well for terran its barracks and toss a cyber core, plus add in the fact that marines and stalkers scale well from early-mid-late game. What you listed for us is only available in mid game, plus hydras really really dont scale well.
Maybe take your own advice and think about what you said. When you say "airtoss", I'm assuming you're talking about an army composed mostly, if not entirely, of Stargate units. Such a composition would only be available in the late game, in which case, Zerg should have Hive tech available. You say that the requirements for Zerg to combat "airtoss" is too exhausting. All the while ignorantly stating that all Protoss needs to deal with airtoss is a Cybernetics Core, implying that a pure Stalker army would effectively combat an airtoss army (couldn't be more wrong, btw). I can't take you too seriously if you can't see all sides of the equation.
Now, in the case that you're just referring to Stargate units in general when you say "airtoss", then Hydralisks with the aid of Queens and/or Spore Crawlers should more than suffice when it comes to defending your base against mid game Stargate aggression/harass. Even in the early game, Queens and Spores do well enough fending off harassment from Protoss air units.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 01 2014 17:52 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 17:38 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 17:33 pure.Wasted wrote:On February 01 2014 17:17 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 17:14 Dvriel wrote:On February 01 2014 17:05 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 17:01 Dvriel wrote:On February 01 2014 16:44 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 16:38 Dvriel wrote:On February 01 2014 10:58 Musicus wrote:
[quote]
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first. Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning... Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink. This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO... Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about. I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2? I've tried all sorts of builds I want to work in this game, many of them don't work. I don't come in here whining about not being able to go only stargate units in PvT or only make units out of the robotics facility. I don't recall zergs complaining about not being able to reliably go ONLY zerglings in ZvP. Some things work, some don't. Just because it's your preferred playstyle does not mean it must be balanced against the entire enemy race. I don't get to go carriers, as much as I want that to be viable. I get that you like mech and want to play it, and that it's fun for you. However, it is not a balance issue that mech does not work vs. protoss. It is gripe you have about the way the race works yes, but complaining that it is unfair that mech doesn't work is like protoss complaining that mass carriers doesn't work. If you want mech to work vs. protoss with approximately the same strength as bio, either bio needs to be weakened a little, or protoss needs to be strengthened a little somewhere else. You cannot add options to one race without increasing its strength: the very option existing is a buff. Well, going only Stargate units in PvT is absolutely viable if the Terran plays mech. Opening with oracles,into voids or Phoenix with 2 base PO is posible. If the T goes BIO, you are dead, but this doesn mean you can compair going full Stargate,full Robo or Mass lings with going mech. MECH are Wm,Hellions,Hellbats,Tanks,Thors,Banshees,Ravens and even BCs or Medivacs(I use then to drop WM or HEllbats). Are you really gonna tell me all this units are the same as "mass lings"? Mech is a Style. You cant go mass carriers vs BIO Terran, but they shred everything if the Terran goes mech and allows you to mass them. Actually Protoss anti mech options are so many and so strong that its almost imposible to win and you only need to amove your Immortal/Archon/Collosi army into 15 presieged tanks. You call this "NORMAL"? The entire Protoss army for SC2 is designed to shut mech pretty hard: Charge to get quickly closer to siege lines.Blink doing the same.Collosi helping from behind,IMMORTALS shredding everything. Archons,Oracles,Void Rays...You need more? So what you're saying is, if the terran voluntarily lets me do it, I can do whatever I want? Thanks for the tautology. On February 01 2014 17:02 Tresher wrote:On February 01 2014 16:44 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 16:38 Dvriel wrote:On February 01 2014 10:58 Musicus wrote:
[quote]
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first. Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning... Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink. This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO... Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about. I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2? I've tried all sorts of builds I want to work in this game, many of them don't work. I don't come in here whining about not being able to go only stargate units in PvT or only make units out of the robotics facility. I don't recall zergs complaining about not being able to reliably go ONLY zerglings in ZvP. Some things work, some don't. Just because it's your preferred playstyle does not mean it must be balanced against the entire enemy race. I don't get to go carriers, as much as I want that to be viable. I get that you like mech and want to play it, and that it's fun for you. However, it is not a balance issue that mech does not work vs. protoss. It is gripe you have about the way the race works yes, but complaining that it is unfair that mech doesn't work is like protoss complaining that mass carriers doesn't work. If you want mech to work vs. protoss with approximately the same strength as bio, either bio needs to be weakened a little, or protoss needs to be strengthened a little somewhere else. You cannot add options to one race without increasing its strength: the very option existing is a buff. Stopped reading at the bolded part. Cant believe people still dont get it that going Bio OR Mech is a unique thing to the Terran race just like Zerg can mass/swarm Units and Protoss has few but strong Units. Obviously never played BW. LoL. "Its Avilo"... Nice way to discuss,huh? Who are you man? Mvp or maybe Polt with a name for TL? Avilo at least try mech. He is not a balance whiner. He is the only man saying the real f.... true about SC2. None of the Progamers dare to even say what are they really thinking and you disrespect him so easily...We are talking about mech and you are saying "marines are dangerous and quick." COME ON, PLEASE, REALLY??? WTF? Can you show me a single VOD or BO when Terran is aggressive in early game TvP¿???? When was the last time Protoss Progamer lost PvT at 7:30 min mark???? WHEN?
Blink all in forcé "certain adaptations"??? Have you ever played Terran, please? Come on, try it man and let me see your face, with 4 bunkers in Deadalus or Heavy Rain, stim,shields,medivacs and+1 at 7 mins while the blink all in is at your ramp.3 mins later you go out and discover the Protoss got doublé forge,robo,Nexus mining and fully saturated in the natural, you try to drop WHILE attacking the natural, the PO is casted on both nexi and you need to go home, trying to expand to catch the Protoss finishig his Storm and 3-3 at 14 min.After all this I wanna see you winning without pulling SCVs OR going MECH hehe. Please,THINK BEFORE YOU WRITE I fully agree here. Sad thing is when you posted that the guy below you just made the same useless "lol its avilo" argument. He may overreact sometimes but some things are really clever and true. So you stopped reading and didn't bother to finish the rest of the argument. That's like someone saying "The world isn't flat, it's round, let me explain how we know..." And you stop reading after "The world isn't flat" because it doesn't fit your preconceptions. It also isn't exactly very helpful to any sort of discussion to read 2 sentences and then declare "I don't agree, I'm not reading the rest." That adds absolutely nothing. In BW, terran could not viably go bio in TvP except for some weird wonky all-in builds. It wasn't really a choice, the only matchup where bio was consistently viable for them was TvZ. It wasn't a choice then either. If you went bio in TvP, you pretty much lost the moment reavers hit the field. What I am saying is IF Terran decides to go MECH YOU WILL BE ABLE TO MASS CARRIERS. Terran need to turtle on 3 bases to secure 6 gases to be able to upgrade as well as you with two armories and research at least Blue Flame for HEllbats,make ghosts with Moebius and cloak upgrade,as well as banshees and Ravens with their upgrades. Can you add all this to turrets and Sensor towers to prevent DTs and Warp Prism drops in the main and try to calculate the gas required. And what I'm saying is that Terran has to choose to allow me to do it. If Zerg decides to go up to 100 drones before making units, I can go 3 nexus before gateway. That does not mean it's always viable regardless of what my opponent chooses to do, like people seem to want mech to be. Some strategies simply are weaker than others, or have vulnerabilities that others don't. And that's a good thing. Imagine, for a moment, if carrier rushing was viable in every matchup against every build regardless of what the opponent did. Wouldn't that suck? QXC did a good job of explaining this in a video a while back: if both bio and mech are always viable options and both are always very strong choices, protoss is pretty much fucked. On February 01 2014 17:16 pure.Wasted wrote:On February 01 2014 17:14 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 17:09 Dvriel wrote:On February 01 2014 16:53 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 16:48 SC2Toastie wrote:
Oracles at the top level disappear indeed. The reason is what you don''t seem to recognise:
Terrans have adapted their builds to hold oracles easilly. BUT that also means builds cannot be aggressive because you need marines at home. That also means you need to invest in defence infrastructure before you can even know whether you need it or not. The mere precence of the oracle forces adaptations -> just as the Tempest completely disables the Battle Cruiser from really working without mass raven support. Protoss builds have been changed to adapt to many things terrans can do as well. Old protoss builds like the 1 colossus, take a third, go straight to templar is completely dead. Protoss can't have map control when medivacs are coming out around the 10 minute mark, no matter how badly we want it. There are times when toss can't be aggressive, and there are times when terran can't be aggressive. If terran can be aggressive whenever it wants regardless of what build toss attempts, do you really think that would be reasonable or fair? The safest build that exists in PvT for Protoss is the Rain build, where he invests in a freaking cannon early on in his mineral lines in case of mine drops, even without knowing whether one is coming or not. If you play greedier than that, you can outright die to mines. Is it unfair that protoss has to account for detection early on in the game or else risk dying to mines? Cloak banshees disappeared because protoss is forced to open detection almost every game. Hero (CJ entus one) died in a proleague match a short while ago vs. Maru because he skipped detection and got killed by cloak banshees. So Protoss adapted to those threats and now opens robo every game, or oracle (which also detects). If nothing cloaked shows up, oh well, we make do with what we have. It's not simply terran who is forced to do certain things because of their opponent's options. You make it sound like protoss can do literally anything it wants at any time, that is absolutely not the case. Banshee did not disappear because of Protoss going for detection every game. They are gone because of the 13 ranged Planetary NExus,man. You are affraind of WM drops? How many PvTs end before 10 mins with Terran win? Oh, one game in the last two years? Really?Oracle not only detecs, but also can kill a mínimum of FOUR workers and escape without dying,whle able to detect home and kill the WM.The WM drop means the T is going 1-1-1 and this is only one of the two builds Terran can go vs P.Now lets see how many does P got??? Terran are able to be aggressive ONLY when Medivacs are out and if their banshee or WM drop does not do enough damage, they got miles behind because of the investment.Protoss can Oracle,DT w/o Warp Prism and blink and still can expand.The difference is that Protoss can be aggerssive from the minute 4 sending a Zealot,MScore Stalker poke while Terran cant even rsik to go up the ramp... Banshees with cloak stopped showing up because protoss always has detection. Nexus cannon means nothing if you can't detect the cloaked banshee, and they even made cloak cheaper. It's purely the fact that protoss adapted to the threats and gets detection every game. We've seen from games like that CJ_Hero vs. Maru game where Maru flat out killed him with cloaked banshees that if you skip detection you die to it. The cannon has absolutely nothing to do with it. Oh, and a one base oracle build getting only 4 workers actually puts the protoss behind, so there goes that argument. Stuff protoss does costs money too bro, it's not free. It's all an investment. In ZvT, once speed finishes, zerg gets a nice long while to have map control, and there's pretty much nothing terran can do about it until medivacs are out. It's NORMAL for a race to have timings where they can't really be aggressive. This argument is silly. Protoss "adapted"??? You now have a unit that can be macro opened with out of a proxy Stargate that is guaranteed to get kills unless you fuck up, which doubles as a detector. What are you going to come up with next, Protoss "adapted" to Reaper aggression by nerfing the Reaper and getting PO? I'm sorry, what? Let me ask you this, given the investment in a stargate, an oracle, and the timings involved that require a delayed expansion, and the delayed robo tech and upgrades from forges, exactly how many kills does an oracle need to get to break even compared to a simple 1 gate expand into robo + double forge? And it's absolutely not guaranteed to get kills, I've seen pro games where the oracle flies in, runs smack into a bunch of marines and zooms out without a kill. I've seen oracles get 2-3 kills, I've seen games in proleague and GSL where an oracle flies in and just dies immediately. There is no guarantee. I didn't say that a proxy Oracle that gets 3 kills puts you as ahead of the Terran as getting double forge, Psi Storm, and Colossus tech. I said that it's a macro opening. Which it is. As for how many kills it gets, yeah, you're right, if the Protoss controls like crap and forgets that the Oracle can just leave the base and come back 30 seconds later from a different angle, it can get zero kills. But if they don't forget, then games like this happen. Really? You're going to point to a game where keen got behind from a proxy gate in his main that he failed to scout as evidence that proxy oracle is broken? Oh, he then, despite scouting his opponent's main with 2 reapers, and seeing no tech or expansion, decided to build a reactor and expansion simultaneously and therefore had no units to defend the oracle? Keen played absurdly greedy and ignored the info from scouting. The complete lack of tech in the main and no expansion should have been a huge tell. I didn't bring that game up as evidence of Protoss being broken. I brought that game up as evidence of what Oracles are capable of when Protoss don't just throw them away, but instead use them throughout the entirety of a game. They deal MASSIVE damage to economies. The Terran's not going to have 5 Marines in each of his mineral lines, and even if he does, you can just park the production facilities and pick up free kills that way. I wrote a lengthy, more general response to you on the last page, that I think you didn't see. This is pretty much nit-picking compared to that.
The oracles were only that useful because of how weak Keen's position was due to the opening game. He never had the resources or tech to shut them down as a result. That game was basically Keen dying super early and then having a 10 minute death animation.
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On February 01 2014 17:56 wongfeihung wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 17:25 SeventhPride wrote:On February 01 2014 17:23 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 17:18 SeventhPride wrote:On February 01 2014 17:08 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Even as a Zerg I don't support, nor do I understand the hydralisk buff. Seems like another example of Blizzard messing with something that isn't broken again... ugh On February 01 2014 16:48 ZenithM wrote:
I don't know Kim... fixed Though I agree with you,You can't deny we need better anti-air though. And I meant a buff in strictly anti air I don't agree, your anti-air is pretty powerful overall. Fungal + corrupter fleet + spores and vipers for abduct pretty much make it impossible for a protoss air army to ever engage zerg without dying. Swarm hosts make it so templar support for storms is non-viable, and zerg just abducts the protoss to death. It's a really boring and lame game, but if you buff other anti-air, you're just going to see zerg waltz in and kill toss pretty much every time. Think about what you said, you have just listed a need for infestation pit,spire and hive just to defend against a airtoss. Well for terran its barracks and toss a cyber core, plus add in the fact that marines and stalkers scale well from early-mid-late game. What you listed for us is only available in mid game, plus hydras really really dont scale well. Maybe take your own advice and think about what you said. When you say "airtoss", I'm assuming you're talking about an army composed mostly, if not entirely, of Stargate units. Such a composition would only be available in the late game, in which case, Zerg should have Hive tech available. You say that the requirements for Zerg to combat "airtoss" is too exhausting. All the while ignorantly stating that all Protoss needs to deal with airtoss is a Cybernetics Core, implying that a pure Stalker army would effectively combat an airtoss army (couldn't be more wrong, btw). I can't take you too seriously if you can't see all sides of the equation. Now, in the case that you're just referring to Stargate units in general when you say "airtoss", then Hydralisks with the aid of Queens and/or Spore Crawlers should more than suffice when it comes to defending your base against mid game Stargate aggression/harass. Even in the early game, Queens and Spores do well enough fending off harassment from Protoss air units.
yes I agree queens and spores are useful in defending. What about attacking? Zergs dont want to just defend all game, we want to attack. Either way I am done with this, this back and forth argument is stupid since we are all just defending our races. I applaud blizzard for recognizing there is a problem and trying to fix it and I am just going to wait and see what comes out of it.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 01 2014 17:59 SeventhPride wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 17:56 wongfeihung wrote:On February 01 2014 17:25 SeventhPride wrote:On February 01 2014 17:23 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 17:18 SeventhPride wrote:On February 01 2014 17:08 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Even as a Zerg I don't support, nor do I understand the hydralisk buff. Seems like another example of Blizzard messing with something that isn't broken again... ugh On February 01 2014 16:48 ZenithM wrote:
I don't know Kim... fixed Though I agree with you,You can't deny we need better anti-air though. And I meant a buff in strictly anti air I don't agree, your anti-air is pretty powerful overall. Fungal + corrupter fleet + spores and vipers for abduct pretty much make it impossible for a protoss air army to ever engage zerg without dying. Swarm hosts make it so templar support for storms is non-viable, and zerg just abducts the protoss to death. It's a really boring and lame game, but if you buff other anti-air, you're just going to see zerg waltz in and kill toss pretty much every time. Think about what you said, you have just listed a need for infestation pit,spire and hive just to defend against a airtoss. Well for terran its barracks and toss a cyber core, plus add in the fact that marines and stalkers scale well from early-mid-late game. What you listed for us is only available in mid game, plus hydras really really dont scale well. Maybe take your own advice and think about what you said. When you say "airtoss", I'm assuming you're talking about an army composed mostly, if not entirely, of Stargate units. Such a composition would only be available in the late game, in which case, Zerg should have Hive tech available. You say that the requirements for Zerg to combat "airtoss" is too exhausting. All the while ignorantly stating that all Protoss needs to deal with airtoss is a Cybernetics Core, implying that a pure Stalker army would effectively combat an airtoss army (couldn't be more wrong, btw). I can't take you too seriously if you can't see all sides of the equation. Now, in the case that you're just referring to Stargate units in general when you say "airtoss", then Hydralisks with the aid of Queens and/or Spore Crawlers should more than suffice when it comes to defending your base against mid game Stargate aggression/harass. Even in the early game, Queens and Spores do well enough fending off harassment from Protoss air units. yes I agree queens and spores are useful in defending. What about attacking? Zergs dont want to just defend all game, we want to attack.
You'll just have to accept the fact that you can't just attack willy-nilly at certain timings if your opponent has chosen to do certain things. If you've got a ling/ultra/infestor army out on the map, I'm not attacking until I've gotten a bunch of immortals. If you have roach/hydra/viper, I'm not attacking until I have high templar for feedback. You have higher tech you can get to while defending, and then you can attack or pressure.
In every PvZ, there are absolutely always timings for zerg to attack, unless the zerg just fails to defend and dies.
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On February 01 2014 17:46 Talack wrote:
They honestly should make MSC be extremely slow away from a nexus similar to the queen on creep. That unit should 100% be extremely risky to use offensively.
Haha, make MSC move with 2 speed in pylon radius, and 0.5 out of pylon radius.
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TLADT24920 Posts
The hydralisk change seems interesting. Half the gas with the same mineral cost. Wonder if 3 base hydralisk all in would be viable in all matchups(is it even an all-in with 3 bases? lol).
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On February 01 2014 17:58 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 17:52 pure.Wasted wrote:On February 01 2014 17:38 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 17:33 pure.Wasted wrote:On February 01 2014 17:17 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 17:14 Dvriel wrote:On February 01 2014 17:05 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 17:01 Dvriel wrote:On February 01 2014 16:44 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 16:38 Dvriel wrote:
[quote]
Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning...
Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink.
This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO...
Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about.
I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2?
I've tried all sorts of builds I want to work in this game, many of them don't work. I don't come in here whining about not being able to go only stargate units in PvT or only make units out of the robotics facility. I don't recall zergs complaining about not being able to reliably go ONLY zerglings in ZvP. Some things work, some don't. Just because it's your preferred playstyle does not mean it must be balanced against the entire enemy race. I don't get to go carriers, as much as I want that to be viable. I get that you like mech and want to play it, and that it's fun for you. However, it is not a balance issue that mech does not work vs. protoss. It is gripe you have about the way the race works yes, but complaining that it is unfair that mech doesn't work is like protoss complaining that mass carriers doesn't work. If you want mech to work vs. protoss with approximately the same strength as bio, either bio needs to be weakened a little, or protoss needs to be strengthened a little somewhere else. You cannot add options to one race without increasing its strength: the very option existing is a buff. Well, going only Stargate units in PvT is absolutely viable if the Terran plays mech. Opening with oracles,into voids or Phoenix with 2 base PO is posible. If the T goes BIO, you are dead, but this doesn mean you can compair going full Stargate,full Robo or Mass lings with going mech. MECH are Wm,Hellions,Hellbats,Tanks,Thors,Banshees,Ravens and even BCs or Medivacs(I use then to drop WM or HEllbats). Are you really gonna tell me all this units are the same as "mass lings"? Mech is a Style. You cant go mass carriers vs BIO Terran, but they shred everything if the Terran goes mech and allows you to mass them. Actually Protoss anti mech options are so many and so strong that its almost imposible to win and you only need to amove your Immortal/Archon/Collosi army into 15 presieged tanks. You call this "NORMAL"? The entire Protoss army for SC2 is designed to shut mech pretty hard: Charge to get quickly closer to siege lines.Blink doing the same.Collosi helping from behind,IMMORTALS shredding everything. Archons,Oracles,Void Rays...You need more? So what you're saying is, if the terran voluntarily lets me do it, I can do whatever I want? Thanks for the tautology. On February 01 2014 17:02 Tresher wrote:On February 01 2014 16:44 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 16:38 Dvriel wrote:
[quote]
Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning...
Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink.
This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO...
Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about.
I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2?
I've tried all sorts of builds I want to work in this game, many of them don't work. I don't come in here whining about not being able to go only stargate units in PvT or only make units out of the robotics facility. I don't recall zergs complaining about not being able to reliably go ONLY zerglings in ZvP. Some things work, some don't. Just because it's your preferred playstyle does not mean it must be balanced against the entire enemy race. I don't get to go carriers, as much as I want that to be viable. I get that you like mech and want to play it, and that it's fun for you. However, it is not a balance issue that mech does not work vs. protoss. It is gripe you have about the way the race works yes, but complaining that it is unfair that mech doesn't work is like protoss complaining that mass carriers doesn't work. If you want mech to work vs. protoss with approximately the same strength as bio, either bio needs to be weakened a little, or protoss needs to be strengthened a little somewhere else. You cannot add options to one race without increasing its strength: the very option existing is a buff. Stopped reading at the bolded part. Cant believe people still dont get it that going Bio OR Mech is a unique thing to the Terran race just like Zerg can mass/swarm Units and Protoss has few but strong Units. Obviously never played BW. LoL. "Its Avilo"... Nice way to discuss,huh? Who are you man? Mvp or maybe Polt with a name for TL? Avilo at least try mech. He is not a balance whiner. He is the only man saying the real f.... true about SC2. None of the Progamers dare to even say what are they really thinking and you disrespect him so easily...We are talking about mech and you are saying "marines are dangerous and quick." COME ON, PLEASE, REALLY??? WTF? Can you show me a single VOD or BO when Terran is aggressive in early game TvP¿???? When was the last time Protoss Progamer lost PvT at 7:30 min mark???? WHEN?
Blink all in forcé "certain adaptations"??? Have you ever played Terran, please? Come on, try it man and let me see your face, with 4 bunkers in Deadalus or Heavy Rain, stim,shields,medivacs and+1 at 7 mins while the blink all in is at your ramp.3 mins later you go out and discover the Protoss got doublé forge,robo,Nexus mining and fully saturated in the natural, you try to drop WHILE attacking the natural, the PO is casted on both nexi and you need to go home, trying to expand to catch the Protoss finishig his Storm and 3-3 at 14 min.After all this I wanna see you winning without pulling SCVs OR going MECH hehe. Please,THINK BEFORE YOU WRITE I fully agree here. Sad thing is when you posted that the guy below you just made the same useless "lol its avilo" argument. He may overreact sometimes but some things are really clever and true. So you stopped reading and didn't bother to finish the rest of the argument. That's like someone saying "The world isn't flat, it's round, let me explain how we know..." And you stop reading after "The world isn't flat" because it doesn't fit your preconceptions. It also isn't exactly very helpful to any sort of discussion to read 2 sentences and then declare "I don't agree, I'm not reading the rest." That adds absolutely nothing. In BW, terran could not viably go bio in TvP except for some weird wonky all-in builds. It wasn't really a choice, the only matchup where bio was consistently viable for them was TvZ. It wasn't a choice then either. If you went bio in TvP, you pretty much lost the moment reavers hit the field. What I am saying is IF Terran decides to go MECH YOU WILL BE ABLE TO MASS CARRIERS. Terran need to turtle on 3 bases to secure 6 gases to be able to upgrade as well as you with two armories and research at least Blue Flame for HEllbats,make ghosts with Moebius and cloak upgrade,as well as banshees and Ravens with their upgrades. Can you add all this to turrets and Sensor towers to prevent DTs and Warp Prism drops in the main and try to calculate the gas required. And what I'm saying is that Terran has to choose to allow me to do it. If Zerg decides to go up to 100 drones before making units, I can go 3 nexus before gateway. That does not mean it's always viable regardless of what my opponent chooses to do, like people seem to want mech to be. Some strategies simply are weaker than others, or have vulnerabilities that others don't. And that's a good thing. Imagine, for a moment, if carrier rushing was viable in every matchup against every build regardless of what the opponent did. Wouldn't that suck? QXC did a good job of explaining this in a video a while back: if both bio and mech are always viable options and both are always very strong choices, protoss is pretty much fucked. On February 01 2014 17:16 pure.Wasted wrote:On February 01 2014 17:14 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 17:09 Dvriel wrote:On February 01 2014 16:53 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 16:48 SC2Toastie wrote:
Oracles at the top level disappear indeed. The reason is what you don''t seem to recognise:
Terrans have adapted their builds to hold oracles easilly. BUT that also means builds cannot be aggressive because you need marines at home. That also means you need to invest in defence infrastructure before you can even know whether you need it or not. The mere precence of the oracle forces adaptations -> just as the Tempest completely disables the Battle Cruiser from really working without mass raven support. Protoss builds have been changed to adapt to many things terrans can do as well. Old protoss builds like the 1 colossus, take a third, go straight to templar is completely dead. Protoss can't have map control when medivacs are coming out around the 10 minute mark, no matter how badly we want it. There are times when toss can't be aggressive, and there are times when terran can't be aggressive. If terran can be aggressive whenever it wants regardless of what build toss attempts, do you really think that would be reasonable or fair? The safest build that exists in PvT for Protoss is the Rain build, where he invests in a freaking cannon early on in his mineral lines in case of mine drops, even without knowing whether one is coming or not. If you play greedier than that, you can outright die to mines. Is it unfair that protoss has to account for detection early on in the game or else risk dying to mines? Cloak banshees disappeared because protoss is forced to open detection almost every game. Hero (CJ entus one) died in a proleague match a short while ago vs. Maru because he skipped detection and got killed by cloak banshees. So Protoss adapted to those threats and now opens robo every game, or oracle (which also detects). If nothing cloaked shows up, oh well, we make do with what we have. It's not simply terran who is forced to do certain things because of their opponent's options. You make it sound like protoss can do literally anything it wants at any time, that is absolutely not the case. Banshee did not disappear because of Protoss going for detection every game. They are gone because of the 13 ranged Planetary NExus,man. You are affraind of WM drops? How many PvTs end before 10 mins with Terran win? Oh, one game in the last two years? Really?Oracle not only detecs, but also can kill a mínimum of FOUR workers and escape without dying,whle able to detect home and kill the WM.The WM drop means the T is going 1-1-1 and this is only one of the two builds Terran can go vs P.Now lets see how many does P got??? Terran are able to be aggressive ONLY when Medivacs are out and if their banshee or WM drop does not do enough damage, they got miles behind because of the investment.Protoss can Oracle,DT w/o Warp Prism and blink and still can expand.The difference is that Protoss can be aggerssive from the minute 4 sending a Zealot,MScore Stalker poke while Terran cant even rsik to go up the ramp... Banshees with cloak stopped showing up because protoss always has detection. Nexus cannon means nothing if you can't detect the cloaked banshee, and they even made cloak cheaper. It's purely the fact that protoss adapted to the threats and gets detection every game. We've seen from games like that CJ_Hero vs. Maru game where Maru flat out killed him with cloaked banshees that if you skip detection you die to it. The cannon has absolutely nothing to do with it. Oh, and a one base oracle build getting only 4 workers actually puts the protoss behind, so there goes that argument. Stuff protoss does costs money too bro, it's not free. It's all an investment. In ZvT, once speed finishes, zerg gets a nice long while to have map control, and there's pretty much nothing terran can do about it until medivacs are out. It's NORMAL for a race to have timings where they can't really be aggressive. This argument is silly. Protoss "adapted"??? You now have a unit that can be macro opened with out of a proxy Stargate that is guaranteed to get kills unless you fuck up, which doubles as a detector. What are you going to come up with next, Protoss "adapted" to Reaper aggression by nerfing the Reaper and getting PO? I'm sorry, what? Let me ask you this, given the investment in a stargate, an oracle, and the timings involved that require a delayed expansion, and the delayed robo tech and upgrades from forges, exactly how many kills does an oracle need to get to break even compared to a simple 1 gate expand into robo + double forge? And it's absolutely not guaranteed to get kills, I've seen pro games where the oracle flies in, runs smack into a bunch of marines and zooms out without a kill. I've seen oracles get 2-3 kills, I've seen games in proleague and GSL where an oracle flies in and just dies immediately. There is no guarantee. I didn't say that a proxy Oracle that gets 3 kills puts you as ahead of the Terran as getting double forge, Psi Storm, and Colossus tech. I said that it's a macro opening. Which it is. As for how many kills it gets, yeah, you're right, if the Protoss controls like crap and forgets that the Oracle can just leave the base and come back 30 seconds later from a different angle, it can get zero kills. But if they don't forget, then games like this happen. Really? You're going to point to a game where keen got behind from a proxy gate in his main that he failed to scout as evidence that proxy oracle is broken? Oh, he then, despite scouting his opponent's main with 2 reapers, and seeing no tech or expansion, decided to build a reactor and expansion simultaneously and therefore had no units to defend the oracle? Keen played absurdly greedy and ignored the info from scouting. The complete lack of tech in the main and no expansion should have been a huge tell. I didn't bring that game up as evidence of Protoss being broken. I brought that game up as evidence of what Oracles are capable of when Protoss don't just throw them away, but instead use them throughout the entirety of a game. They deal MASSIVE damage to economies. The Terran's not going to have 5 Marines in each of his mineral lines, and even if he does, you can just park the production facilities and pick up free kills that way. I wrote a lengthy, more general response to you on the last page, that I think you didn't see. This is pretty much nit-picking compared to that. The oracles were only that useful because of how weak Keen's position was due to the opening game. He never had the resources or tech to shut them down as a result. That game was basically Keen dying super early and then having a 10 minute death animation.
Then show me a game where what happened to Keen is impossible because the Terran has 5 Marines parked in every one of his mineral lines for the entire duration of the game.
Cause if he doesn't, that Oracle could come back and try again. If it doesn't, that's just the Protoss being lazy.
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Whitewing, could you try to show more nuance and less binary thinking in your arguments? The world isn't black/white, especially balancing this game. Putting words in somebody elses mouth an hyperbole don't make you seem more knowledgable or right in any way. Thanks!
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On February 01 2014 18:01 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 17:59 SeventhPride wrote:On February 01 2014 17:56 wongfeihung wrote:On February 01 2014 17:25 SeventhPride wrote:On February 01 2014 17:23 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 17:18 SeventhPride wrote:On February 01 2014 17:08 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Even as a Zerg I don't support, nor do I understand the hydralisk buff. Seems like another example of Blizzard messing with something that isn't broken again... ugh On February 01 2014 16:48 ZenithM wrote:
I don't know Kim... fixed Though I agree with you,You can't deny we need better anti-air though. And I meant a buff in strictly anti air I don't agree, your anti-air is pretty powerful overall. Fungal + corrupter fleet + spores and vipers for abduct pretty much make it impossible for a protoss air army to ever engage zerg without dying. Swarm hosts make it so templar support for storms is non-viable, and zerg just abducts the protoss to death. It's a really boring and lame game, but if you buff other anti-air, you're just going to see zerg waltz in and kill toss pretty much every time. Think about what you said, you have just listed a need for infestation pit,spire and hive just to defend against a airtoss. Well for terran its barracks and toss a cyber core, plus add in the fact that marines and stalkers scale well from early-mid-late game. What you listed for us is only available in mid game, plus hydras really really dont scale well. Maybe take your own advice and think about what you said. When you say "airtoss", I'm assuming you're talking about an army composed mostly, if not entirely, of Stargate units. Such a composition would only be available in the late game, in which case, Zerg should have Hive tech available. You say that the requirements for Zerg to combat "airtoss" is too exhausting. All the while ignorantly stating that all Protoss needs to deal with airtoss is a Cybernetics Core, implying that a pure Stalker army would effectively combat an airtoss army (couldn't be more wrong, btw). I can't take you too seriously if you can't see all sides of the equation. Now, in the case that you're just referring to Stargate units in general when you say "airtoss", then Hydralisks with the aid of Queens and/or Spore Crawlers should more than suffice when it comes to defending your base against mid game Stargate aggression/harass. Even in the early game, Queens and Spores do well enough fending off harassment from Protoss air units. yes I agree queens and spores are useful in defending. What about attacking? Zergs dont want to just defend all game, we want to attack. You'll just have to accept the fact that you can't just attack willy-nilly at certain timings if your opponent has chosen to do certain things. If you've got a ling/ultra/infestor army out on the map, I'm not attacking until I've gotten a bunch of immortals. If you have roach/hydra/viper, I'm not attacking until I have high templar for feedback. You have higher tech you can get to while defending, and then you can attack or pressure. In every PvZ, there are absolutely always timings for zerg to attack, unless the zerg just fails to defend and dies.
Oh lord I was going to shut up until I saw this. The compositions you listed are so much later for zerg then toss. There is no way you wont hit me with your units before I can get those stuff out. I understand being bias, I am bias too to zerg but you are getting way out of hand pulling stuff out of thin air.
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Yo Seventh Pride, make broodlords to defend proxy 2 gate, because broodlords rape Zealots!!
Dat Whitewing logic 
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On February 01 2014 18:16 SC2Toastie wrote:Yo Seventh Pride, make broodlords to defend proxy 2 gate, because broodlords rape Zealots!! Dat Whitewing logic
FML, I have been playing the game wrong. URGH
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On February 01 2014 18:17 SeventhPride wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 18:16 SC2Toastie wrote:Yo Seventh Pride, make broodlords to defend proxy 2 gate, because broodlords rape Zealots!! Dat Whitewing logic FML, I have been playing the game wrong. URGH
Haha ;-)
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EPT
