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Does this mean Tempest will no longer deal so much dmg vs colossus, archon, thor and ultra?
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Hydralisk is probably my favourite unit. I miss its glory days from BW. I wouldn't mind seeing this change go through, as a random player 
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Even if it makes the game imbalanced for a short while while a new meta is figured out, because earlier/better mass hydra will DRASTICALLY change the meta in all 3 matchups in a positive way:less commital to quick 3rds, more commital to tech units such as Siege Tanks or even just forcing the Protoss to make units in the early-midgame at all, I'm quite unhappy about this potentially occuring at the start of a GSL season. This should have happened a month ago or more, not half a week before Code S starts.
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On February 01 2014 18:23 Big-t wrote:
Does this mean Tempest will no longer deal so much dmg vs colossus, archon, thor and ultra?
You're a bit late to the party. Tempest damage versus all ground units was brought down to 30 or so a while ago. Right now in 2.1, it only has a bonus to massive air; and out of the units you mentioned, only colossus is treated as such. The new change will only increase damage to buildings.
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On February 01 2014 18:34 Perfi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 18:23 Big-t wrote:
Does this mean Tempest will no longer deal so much dmg vs colossus, archon, thor and ultra? You're a bit late to the party. Tempest damage versus all ground units was brought down to 30 or so a while ago. Right now in 2.1, it only has a bonus to massive air; and out of the units you mentioned, only colossus is treated as such. The new change will only increase damage to buildings.
Ah right, kind of forgot that colossus count as air 
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On February 01 2014 18:31 Lunareste wrote:
Even if it makes the game imbalanced for a short while while a new meta is figured out, because earlier/better mass hydra will DRASTICALLY change the meta in all 3 matchups in a positive way:less commital to quick 3rds, more commital to tech units such as Siege Tanks or even just forcing the Protoss to make units in the early-midgame at all, I'm quite unhappy about this potentially occuring at the start of a GSL season. This should have happened a month ago or more, not half a week before Code S starts.
It's only a test, mate. I doubt they'd implement the patch during Code S. I'd say a couple of weeks of testing, maybe some changes, and then implement. Speaking of which, I haven't had a game on the test map since a little earlier. No-one seemed to be around (or I just did not wait long enough for someone to join me). I'm keen to try out the imba Tempests.
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I hope some good Zergs play this test map and show that the Hydra cost decrease is way too severe a change. Unfortunately, judging by the 32% approval rating in the poll, it does look like our Z want this change to happen though, haha.
Also, I'm still against photon overcharge duration nerf, instead reduce MSC vision so you have to expose it in blink allins and bump up recall cost to make it slightly less useful offensively.
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Why do people who are prob in bronze talk bad about Avilo? His points are valid if you like him or not. He plays mech, and he plays it in GM vs protoss a lot of the time. The guy is 100x better than anyone in this thread, or who disrespect him.
Majority of the stuff he speaks is true and not a mindless whine. People in this community and society just hate on people because they think "it's the cool thing to do. It's a no brainer Terran vs Protoss needs some love. Playing only 1 viable spec in a RTS is terrible Design and has to change. Bio every game is the most boring POS to watch after a good 4+ years of SC2. Mech should be a viable option vs protoss.
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On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote:
I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)... I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way. The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player... Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels. If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do: 1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game. 2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp. This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base. This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance. 3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers. What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game." It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory. This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them. 4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price. It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base. That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins. 5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense. 6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss. This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss. The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever. Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg. Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP. p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
I guess that is the reason Blizzard is not relying too much on player input: you basically just want all that's good for Terran while nerfing everything Toss has. Well thought out...
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On February 01 2014 19:42 tar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote:
I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)... I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way. The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player... Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels. If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do: 1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game. 2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp. This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base. This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance. 3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers. What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game." It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory. This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them. 4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price. It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base. That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins. 5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense. 6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss. This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss. The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever. Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg. Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP. p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change. I guess that is the reason Blizzard is not relying too much on player input: you basically just want all that's good for Terran while nerfing everything Toss has. Well thought out...
Stop hating on 1 person. Tons of Terran have expressed how stale TVP is, and how mech should be viable vs protoss. Even in WOL protoss was always favored vs Terran. Most of Avilos suggestions are things the community has been saying forever, they are not 1 sided in Terran favor. A lot of Koreans also expressed their frustration in the match up and wish mech was viable. Major even stated how the Koreans felt about it when he was in Korea.
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On February 01 2014 19:42 tar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote:
I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)... I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way. The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player... Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels. If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do: 1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game. 2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp. This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base. This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance. 3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers. What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game." It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory. This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them. 4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price. It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base. That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins. 5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense. 6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss. This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss. The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever. Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg. Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP. p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change. I guess that is the reason Blizzard is not relying too much on player input: you basically just want all that's good for Terran while nerfing everything Toss has. Well thought out...
I think it is fair to say that Avilo is not the average pro in terms of balance thinking.
but it is also wrong to throw all his ideas out of the window because "they are from avilo". Everyone is biased on his own race thats the nature of rts games, ask Orc players they sayed that Orc vs Undead was balanced...
I personally would like to see the armory getting cheaper because this part of tech is in favor of P (twilight is more useful in more situations and it requires only a cyber core instead of a factory).
Also i think a upgrade nerf to protoss could help TvP, the reduction on WoL was ok because Protoss neded to spend more gas to survive early game which is the other way around in TvP now.
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On February 01 2014 19:56 Micro_Jackson wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 19:42 tar wrote:On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote:
I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)... I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way. The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player... Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels. If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do: 1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game. 2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp. This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base. This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance. 3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers. What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game." It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory. This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them. 4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price. It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base. That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins. 5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense. 6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss. This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss. The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever. Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg. Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP. p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change. I guess that is the reason Blizzard is not relying too much on player input: you basically just want all that's good for Terran while nerfing everything Toss has. Well thought out... I think it is fair to say that Avilo is not the average pro in terms of balance thinking. but it is also wrong to throw all his ideas out of the window because "they are from avilo". Everyone is biased on his own race thats the nature of rts games, ask Orc players they sayed that Orc vs Undead was balanced... I personally would like to see the armory getting cheaper because this part of tech is in favor of P (twilight is more useful in more situations and it requires only a cyber core instead of a factory). Also i think a upgrade nerf to protoss could help TvP, the reduction on WoL was ok because Protoss neded to spend more gas to survive early game which is the other way around in TvP now.
I am not saying all he says is wrong, it's just a very onesided presentation. He basically picks all suggestion that have been made and says: If they want to do something meaningful, this is what they should do.
This would not balance TvP, it would outright swing it in Ts favor.
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I think out of avilos suggestions the turret and armory changes seem reasonable and should be tested. They already did the equivalent to zerg with spores no longer requiring evo chambers. It bring a lot more stability into early game TvP when emergency turrets can be built faster and it just costs way less mineral to be safe from all the random shit protoss can throw at you. The downside is thats its a banshee nerf in TvT but honestly TvT feels kinda coinflippy at times too, especially the early game.
The armory change would be a huge help with mech TvP in general, try making a mech TvP build that can defend blink stalkers while maybe doing some light harass with hellion drops. Your armories will be extremely delayed because you just can't afford 300/200 into armories and then another 200/200 to get the upgrades going.
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I dont like the hydra buff for a lot of reason
zvz : hydras all the time since they are now a lot cheaper than infestor and come out easely against muta
zvt : it ok i guess but roaches hydras will be really really strong mid games + possiblity to tech to hyve faster caus of gaz
zvp : real problem here ling hydras into muta will be so strong now also big roaches hydras or hydras ling will be huge to deal with
suggestion : make it more 85 minerals and 50 gaz
duration of charge and cost of tw :
time of tw: good idee
duration : really bad for pvp and wont make a huge impact in the other matchup : still a real nerf for p
ghost : good idee for all mu great buff terran can now have sharper timing attck or defense
tempest : dont like the buff but i think it wont make a huge difference caus of low dps. still thet should not buff tempest. may by decrease a bit carrier build time
im a random master player : only real pb is tvp lategame so ghost buff is good but mayby not enough
i think most of you dont reallise how much impact a small nerf or buff can have specilally for the mothership core and hydras
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On February 01 2014 20:13 Bagi wrote:
I think out of avilos suggestions the turret and armory changes seem reasonable and should be tested. They already did the equivalent to zerg with spores no longer requiring evo chambers. It bring a lot more stability into early game TvP when emergency turrets can be built faster and it just costs way less mineral to be safe from all the random shit protoss can throw at you. The downside is thats its a banshee nerf in TvT but honestly TvT feels kinda coinflippy at times too, especially the early game.
The armory change would be a huge help with mech TvP in general, try making a mech TvP build that can defend blink stalkers while maybe doing some light harass with hellion drops. Your armories will be extremely delayed because you just can't afford 300/200 into armories and then another 200/200 to get the upgrades going.
The armory change would break TvZ, imo. Mech has been quite strong lately against Zerg and with faster upgrades, therefore an earlier Mech Death Ball - I don't know if that's reasonable.
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On February 01 2014 20:27 sDaLi wrote:
I dont like the hydra buff for a lot of reason
(...)
tempest : dont like the buff but i think it wont make a huge difference caus of low dps. still thet should not buff tempest. may by decrease a bit carrier build time
(...)
What really confuses me about the Tempest buff is that they had explicitly stated they only wanted it to affect PvZ. For me that would have meant making tempests unabductable. However, the current change will probably just buff lategame PvT while leaving lategame PvZ almost untouched.
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On February 01 2014 20:31 tar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 20:27 sDaLi wrote:
I dont like the hydra buff for a lot of reason
(...)
tempest : dont like the buff but i think it wont make a huge difference caus of low dps. still thet should not buff tempest. may by decrease a bit carrier build time
(...)
What really confuses me about the Tempest buff is that they had explicitly stated they only wanted it to affect PvZ. For me that would have meant making tempests unabductable. However, the current change will probably just buff lategame PvT while leaving lategame PvZ almost untouched.
i guess its for killing wall's of spore and spine faster. when you see some of snute games you can understand. but i still disagree with this buff
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On February 01 2014 20:30 Swisslink wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 20:13 Bagi wrote:
I think out of avilos suggestions the turret and armory changes seem reasonable and should be tested. They already did the equivalent to zerg with spores no longer requiring evo chambers. It bring a lot more stability into early game TvP when emergency turrets can be built faster and it just costs way less mineral to be safe from all the random shit protoss can throw at you. The downside is thats its a banshee nerf in TvT but honestly TvT feels kinda coinflippy at times too, especially the early game.
The armory change would be a huge help with mech TvP in general, try making a mech TvP build that can defend blink stalkers while maybe doing some light harass with hellion drops. Your armories will be extremely delayed because you just can't afford 300/200 into armories and then another 200/200 to get the upgrades going. The armory change would break TvZ, imo. Mech has been quite strong lately against Zerg and with faster upgrades, therefore an earlier Mech Death Ball - I don't know if that's reasonable.
I don't think it would, simply because armories are pretty affordable in TvZ as it is. A few tanks behind a wall and some hellions can ward off all early aggression and you are free to put some gas into upgrades and whatnot. This isnt the case against protoss, tanks are much worse at defending protoss aggression so you will need to keep building tanks nonstop.
Basically in TvZ an armory cost change would give terran an extra 100/100 but I doubt it would change armory timings much, which makes it a small buff but not a game changer. In TvP it could help you squeeze in those armories much earlier in your build and fundamentally change your upgrade timings.
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Based on all feedback I don't think Blizzard cares what anyone thinks.
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On February 01 2014 20:55 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 20:30 Swisslink wrote:On February 01 2014 20:13 Bagi wrote:
I think out of avilos suggestions the turret and armory changes seem reasonable and should be tested. They already did the equivalent to zerg with spores no longer requiring evo chambers. It bring a lot more stability into early game TvP when emergency turrets can be built faster and it just costs way less mineral to be safe from all the random shit protoss can throw at you. The downside is thats its a banshee nerf in TvT but honestly TvT feels kinda coinflippy at times too, especially the early game.
The armory change would be a huge help with mech TvP in general, try making a mech TvP build that can defend blink stalkers while maybe doing some light harass with hellion drops. Your armories will be extremely delayed because you just can't afford 300/200 into armories and then another 200/200 to get the upgrades going. The armory change would break TvZ, imo. Mech has been quite strong lately against Zerg and with faster upgrades, therefore an earlier Mech Death Ball - I don't know if that's reasonable. I don't think it would, simply because armories are pretty affordable in TvZ as it is. A few tanks behind a wall and some hellions can ward off all early aggression and you are free to put some gas into upgrades and whatnot. This isnt the case against protoss, tanks are much worse at defending protoss aggression so you will need to keep building tanks nonstop. Basically in TvZ an armory cost change would give terran an extra 100/100 but I doubt it would change armory timings much, which makes it a small buff but not a game changer. In TvP it could help you squeeze in those armories much earlier in your build and fundamentally change your upgrade timings.
The difference is that in TvZ there is a strong contain+macro build that gives you the scouting and infrastructure to defend anything, thus you can afford upgrades because you are 'safe'.
In TvP scouting is hard, doesn't mean a whole lot and you NEED 3 rax Stim to defend attacks, siege tanks won't hold your front again dedicated pressure because quite frankly they SUCK vs Zealots Archons Immortal and such attacks hit earlier thn the ghost can ever be.
And this all comes down to how easy you defend with Msc, because there's no way to go for a scout/pressure/contain build as Terran.
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EPT
