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On February 02 2014 01:34 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2014 01:31 tar wrote:On February 02 2014 01:24 Loccstana wrote:
Please give Terran a magically unit that for 50 energy can instant kill half of all Protoss units. This would make the game so interesting. there is a free ghost ugrade slot now! It could be named Neutron Round: Energy: 50 Range: 10 Radius: 2.5 Damage: 100 Hotkey: N The Ghost fires an Neutron Round that removes up to 100 HP from every unit within the AoE. It's funny because that's roughly what EMP does and that doesn't help much. PLEASE MAEK THIS SHIT STRONGER!
Alright, alright:
Neutron Round:
Energy: 50
Range: 10
Radius: 2.5
Damage: 100 (ignores shields)
Hotkey: N
The Ghost fires an Neutron Round that directly removes up to 100 HP from every unit within the AoE.
happy now 
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On February 02 2014 00:45 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2014 00:33 Destructicon wrote:
The reason I am using such an aggressive and condescending tone is because a lot of posters here have earned it, throwing around speculation with nearly no analysis behind it, they don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly.
Are you not doing the same? Both yours and avilo's arguments have nearly no analysis behind it, you don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly. Indeed, you have earned such an aggressive and condescending tone.
Wat.
They have two incredibly detailed posts stating specific reasons why these things are problems. What kind of analysis are you looking for? The usual bullshit that gets posted here?
Herp Derp Derp 52%-48% winrate, Herp Derp Derp MC vs MMA Herp Derp Derp Derp
I highly prefer people like these guys clearly addressing the issue which is as clear as fucking daylight about TvP problems, and then suggesting some changes.
The problem is now a days people see the word avilo... scroll past his post and reply with
Herp Derp Derp Avilo mother fucking Derp Derp Herp AVILO Herp Derp Derp
User was warned for this post
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On February 02 2014 01:44 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2014 00:45 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On February 02 2014 00:33 Destructicon wrote:
The reason I am using such an aggressive and condescending tone is because a lot of posters here have earned it, throwing around speculation with nearly no analysis behind it, they don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly.
Are you not doing the same? Both yours and avilo's arguments have nearly no analysis behind it, you don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly. Indeed, you have earned such an aggressive and condescending tone. Wat. They have two incredibly detailed posts stating specific reasons why these things are problems. What kind of analysis are you looking for? The usual bullshit that gets posted here? Herp Derp Derp 52%-48% winrate, Herp Derp Derp MC vs MMA Herp Derp Derp Derp I highly prefer people like these guys clearly addressing the issue which is as clear as fucking daylight about TvP problems, and then suggesting some changes. The problem is now a days people see the word avilo... scroll past his post and reply with Herp Derp Derp Avilo mother fucking Derp Derp Herp AVILO Herp Derp Derp
Nope, he is actually right: the whole analysis focuses on how it helps Terran, not how it fixes the MU.
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4713 Posts
On February 02 2014 00:45 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2014 00:33 Destructicon wrote:
The reason I am using such an aggressive and condescending tone is because a lot of posters here have earned it, throwing around speculation with nearly no analysis behind it, they don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly.
Are you not doing the same? Both yours and avilo's arguments have nearly no analysis behind it, you don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly. Indeed, you have earned such an aggressive and condescending tone.
No analysis, really?
So, terran has only two viable builds, 14 CC, which is extremely risk, and map dependent, because it can easily be killed by a small poke from the zealot, stalker and MSC. Thus terran don't elect to go that route.
Terran now goes for a 12 Rax, 12 Gas, reaper into reactor build where they pull out of gas at 100 and get a CC, 1 more rax for safety and a safety ebay at around 4:30 for defense. You don't have much choice in this matter, the reactor is mandatory, if you don't get it you risk dying to pokes and oracles, you can't go 3 CC because the risk of mentioned pokes, oracles + blink can outright kill you if you do it.
You also have to get a safety turret at your nat at around the 7 min mark, just in case he goes DTs.
That all adds up to a lot of resources spent on just being safe.
As a terran you also can't go double engi upgrades early game, because that dedicates too much resources into tech that won't help you survive the early game aggression, and at best just keeps you on even footing with the protoss, it also potentially delays your 10 min push out.
If you elect to go factory after the 1st Rax, you are, sacrificing the mid game tempo for potential early game damage. You delay your stim by a lot by investing 100 into a factory, 100 into say a SP and 100 more into a medivac. You shouldn't go Banshee, because if he went Robo he will have a obs to shut it down, if he went SG he will probably scout it and just adds a phoenix and shuts it down even harder. So a better option is hellions or WM drps, however a nice sim city will mostly limit hellion mobility, the PO + MSC is enough to shut it down by killing the medivac and hellions, if you went WM drop then the worst case scenario for the protoss is that one burrows in his mineral line, which means he just has to pull back probes every 40 seconds, sac 1 and then just wait for detection, often enough the WM will just die. And that sort of attack needs to do a lot of damage, because you delay stim for so long you need to catch up in some other area.
Meanwhile Protoss still has a strong array of options. They can go GW expand safely, 11/11 is nearly obsolete, since most of the time the Protoss just needs to micro his stalkers and MSC until he has enough energy for PO and then he pushes it back.
You also can't bunker and isolate the nat for the same reason, the toss can just PO the nexus and it will destroy the bunker and kill the marines before the Nexus is destroyed.
Any bio push before medivacs is a suicide mission, FF and time warp mean the units will die. If you try to run into the main they can just FF or TW the ramp and they force you to fight the POed Nexus, that will just kill your units.
So terrans options of aggression are limited and gimmicky.
Meanwhile protoss has tons of options. There is the aforementioned zealot, stalker, MSC poke, which by default forces the terran into a certain path, even just the threat of it the attack isn't even all-in, it still is possible to go Nexus behind it, toss cans till be greedy, but the potential damage this can do is massive. Then there is the proxy or even regular oracles, they can hit at around the 5:30 min mark, they provide excellent scouting, their speed allows them to get off kills every so often, adding up in time, and just the threat and presence of them again further forces terran down a very narrow path.
Lastly there is the 2 base blink pressure, I say pressure because its no longer all-in at all. The Protoss still gets 2nd Nexus behind this and can fully saturate it. The build can start off 1 gas but gets a 2nd one later, so it initially looks like a normal build. The Twilight starts building at around 4:30 and the attack hits at around 6:30 to 7:00.
To hold this build the terran needs around 3-4 bunkers, 2 at the nat. You can't lose the nat as terran, if you lose the nat you lose the game you need bunkers in the main at key points so the toss can't just jump in uncontested. Additionally you need 3 raxes, 2 with Techlabs, you need Concussive shells and constant marauder production, the marauder production, SCVs pulled to repair cuts into economy and delays the factory, SP, medivacs and thus any aggression and potential for counter attacks.
Again, just the potential for this, is enough to force the terran to stick to a very safe build, with nearly no possibility to be greedy or aggressive themselves.
Behind this the protoss can go almost anything, they can go double forge upgrades, and they will gain a upgrade lead, because as a terran you can't be safe and also invest into double upgrades to stay safe. They could be going storm and/or colossus, and both require specific answers by the terran to deal with, and the protoss will usually be ahead in that tech, with terran having to respond, which makes it even harder to put on aggression successfully. Lastly the toss could also just as well be getting a 3rd, charge, more GW for safety.
Now, lets look at the proposed changes from Avilo and what they do in the context of TvP.
The MSC vision change is the biggest one. It allows terran to defend their high ground better against pokes, it makes the blink all-in weaker, because the MSC has to get in range to provide vision, and thus becomes vulnerable to being sniped.
Does the vision change adversely affect Protoss scouting? No, not really, Protoss now has hallucinations to scout, and if the protoss is forced to make a few sentries to scout its still a net gain in all MUs for the other races, it means the toss is being less greedy and has to dedicate more resources for scouting, zerg already dedicates a bit if they send in overlords and sack them to scout, terran does as well with reaper scouts.
The overall effect of a vision change is a positive one because it cuts into the greed of protoss and allows more breathing room for terran, while also shifting the risk, reward ratio of a blink all-in a bit more in the terran favor, in the context of protoss already putting on so much indirect pressure I'd say this is a good change overall.
How about the turret change?
Well spores are anti air defenses that from zerg that already don't require evo chambers any more, at least from a design standpoint it makes sense to normalize the races a bit and provide fair treatment to all of them by having their anti-air not have any perquisites. Now strictly in the context of TvP its a good change because, the terran has to dedicate less resources early game to be ultra safe vs oracles, thus they could maybe be a bit greedier or more flexible in builds, allowing for more variety and potentially more options, again another positive effect.
How about the oracle speed nerf.
Well, we all appreciate units that you can gain value from, but the oracle is the extreme end of it, it is too efficient now. The speed and acceleration being reverted would mean there is actually a small chance the protoss terran would have more reaction time to defend against it, its a net positive.
Does it adversely affect protoss? Not directly, the protoss is still very safe even if they invest into oracle, they still gain good scouting info, they can still gain some kills if they are diligent using it, but now they can actually lose the oracle if they are caught off guard, which is how it should be.
What does it do for terran? It alleviates another source of indirect early game pressure, allowing even more freedom of build orders for terrans, perhaps it might open up enough room for the terrans to actually be greedy again and go 3 CC against protoss and enter the mid and early game on even footing.
Does the collective sum of nerfing/reverting the above adversely affect protoss? Not really, because in this context the terrans own aggressive options are being already weak vs Protoss. Banshee harass is trash, hellions and WM drops are easy to shut down, medivacless pushes are suicide missions, all terran pressure/aggression either have a low chance of success in dealing damage or a huge risk of the attacking units dying.
In the context of protoss still being so safe, it makes sense that protoss aggressive options being weaker as well, its ok for oracles to be worst off when banshees are bad, its fine for blink all-ins to be a risk when hellion/WM drops are a risk.
It amuses me greatly that you seem to think I'm not doing any analysis, however you should really put some effort into at least trying to counter my arguments and logic, point for point. It looks to me like you are calling me out but aren't doing anything to explain why I'm wrong.
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I'm going to be very delicate about the Hydralisk change. I don't want to use banned terminology on TL especially in a balance discussion.
However, I feel like halving the gas cost of Hydras is only going to destroy ZvT and ZvP. If Hydras suddenly become so gas-efficient that you can devise a build order using a generator and amass them in a 200/200 timing with perhaps 1/1 upgrades, speed and range upgrades, then you are going to see two dead matchups.
We've already seen how powerful Roach Hydra Infestor can be in ZvT especially in the hands of a good player and if gas costs are halved, that means reinforcing with a good mix of roaches and hydras is much easier and there will be more Infestors on the field when the Zerg is in a good situation.
In ZvP, we're just going to see Hydralisk busts, perhaps combined with drop aggression. Before, that was too costly to really pull off. Now? BRING ON THE LISKS!!!!
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Good changes. Honestly, I'm kind of astounded people are angry about them. Especially the Tempest buff. I mean really? It's not going to make Protoss stronger. It's going to make another tactic viable. Sort of like buffing mech up to MMM strength in TvP.
Now I do think the changes are conservative. Photon overcharge and the Mothership Core were just slightly nerfed, and I wish Blizzard had been a little bolder, but I don't begrudge careful balancing. I would have liked to see something like A slight Damage buff to Photon Overcharge but ONLY be able to do it ONCE PER NEXUS.
They're on the right track though.
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On February 02 2014 00:57 tar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2014 00:33 Destructicon wrote:On February 02 2014 00:10 tar wrote:On February 01 2014 22:29 Destructicon wrote:
Damn, the amount off ignorance and hate being flung at Avilo is astounding.
Almost all the suggestions he has made are very sensible and much needed changes.
The problem with Protoss, the real imbalance is that they have way too many options, options that, also limit the options terrans can do. TvP late game isn't easy for Terran, but it isn't completely impossible either, you just need both T and P to enter it on even footing.
At the moment terrans can't enter it on even footing. The early aggressive options of toss, Oracles, Blink all-in, DTs etc, force the terran into using very safe and conservative builds. However because the builds are so safe protoss exploits them with extremely greedy builds, that can't be countered almost at all, because the MSC just gives way, way too much safety.
Terran is thus stuck between a rock and a hard place, they can't be aggressive at all, because of MSC, but they also can't be too greedy, because of all the lethal pressure toss has.
Something has to give, its either the toss lose some of their defensive power, so terran can actually be aggressive and force toss to be less greedy, or toss itself loses some of its aggressive options so that terran can be more greedy and enter the late game even. The logic here is perfectly fine, I only see outbreaks of QQ from protosses, fearful they will actually have to put in some effort to play.
I see nothing wrong reverting the oracle speed, it was a dumb buff to begin with, it was contested and complained against since the very beginning, even protoss pros agreed that it was a bad change. The oracle limits terrans build order choices, you always have to play safe, you always need to take them into account, because if you don't you just die to it, there is no middle ground there.
I also don't see anything wrong with reducing the sight range of MSC. The MSC already breaks so many rules in the game, its a scouting tool, army support/utility and defensive tool, its too versatile, it has too much, it does too much. The MSC should never have been made so strong, its high time two of its utilities got cut, at the very least the sight range should be reduced so that terran can't have a free scout and free vision of the high ground, with zero counterplay to it.
DT Shrine cost was also stupid. Protoss is already very safe because of MSC, it stands to reason then that if defense is so cheep for them then their aggressive options, at least early game, should be more expensive, to balance things out, so they can't actually put on aggression while still staying 100% safe. You don't see any creative DT strats either, they are used as a gimmick early game to gain a huge lead, or they are used as a reliable harass tool late game in all MUs, the cost of it won't nerf it in the late game, but it will tone down the huge number of possible game ending aggressive options toss has in the early game.
Finally, I have it makes 0 sense anymore for Missile turret to require a engy bay to build, the missile turret can only shoot up, it also costs 100 damn minerals and you need at least 1 per mineral line to be safe. Spore was even changed to not require Evo chambers any more, I don't see why Missile turrets can't get the same treatment. I'm not sure about the sensor tower, I think that should still require an ebay.
I also agree with the armory change, it doesn't affect any unit balance, it helps with one of the core problems of mech, setting up infrastructure, because for the longest time you'll be working off 2 base and have to spend gas on upgrades, infrastructure (factories, SP and all their addons) as well as army, and you can't do it all at once off just 440 gas per minute, which leaves the mech army player with glaring weaknesses, since all of the above cost shit loads of gas.
Quite frankly I just think most of you are hating on Avilo for no good reason, almost none of you presented any counter arguments as to why his suggestions are bad, you only vaguely touch on how it should, supposedly, break TvP by swinging it in terran favor, but I've yet to see explanations as to how that would happen.
All I see is mindless bashing and bronze league logic used to counter quite sensible, actually very conservative proposals.
Edit: And since I seem to have went off topic slightly, I hate all the proposed changes, the only good one is the time warp change, but it doesn't do enough, all the changes are bad because they fail to address the appropriate issue in the appropriate way, but I already explained why in the last thread. It's funny that you start your post with claiming that shit was flung at someone yet then you yourself resort to condescending or plain insulting language. The problem with avilo's quite conservative proposals is, that in combination they are not conservative proposals anymore. It is a onesided approach to the issue that results in all problems for Terran solved while Toss would be where they were in the era of the infamous 1/1/1 with the added benefit of banshee buffs. Back then, the complains of Tosses were similar to those of Terrans today: lack of scouting info, variety of Terran harass options and macro follow ups as well a lack of harass options. Also, horribly strong Terran all ins (ie 1/1/1 or marine hellion drops) Just some quick theorycrafting how avilo's changes would affect Tosses options: -Going DTs? Well with old cost and no engibay-turrets? Reduced to an all in that needs to do significant damage (which it should not do anymore). -Oracles? - slow oracles with turrets available on the fly basically make it the same as going DTs. on the other hand: -Tanks sieging your natural and cloaked banshees attacking your mineral line will be painfull without 14 vision range msc especially when you consider that tanks then would do bonus damage versus shields. This would be even stronger than in wol since tanks don't need siege mode research and cloak is considerably cheaper than it was back then. All in all, the game would be back at super passive protoss turtle play with no aggressive options apart from heavy gateway all ins (only them being a lot weaker with widow mines, free siege mode and stuff) I may reiterate that I don't find any one of those changes unreasonable in itself but they for sure add up and make mech play a round thing against Toss, while leaving Toss in a situation that reminds me very much of WoL and I don't want to think about the implications those change would have for PvZ. You seem to have missed the point where I said that, Protoss is already extremely safe against terran aggression while being able to put on a load of pressure themselves or even kill, one of those has to be addressed. Its either toss defensive power needs to be toned down, to the point where terran can put on enough aggression to force the toss to potentially spend more gas on being safe (thus slowing their tech and reducing their greed), or the toss pressures need to be severely nerfed. In the context of Toss still keeping their MSC defensive powers mostly intact (which is what this balance patch proposes), then having all the toss offensive options nerfed is a fair and justified. If you want toss to keep all its offensive toys then propose a nerf to the MSC defensive abilities, you can't have both extreme safety early game and extreme offensive power with no risk reward involved, that's not how an RTS is supposed to work. I find it amusing you mention banshees, they are hard countered by almost anything in the protoss arsenal. If toss goes SG for quick oracle then they will be able to also make 1 phoenix to shut down the aggression. If they opened Robo they can get an obs and stalkers to chase it away. Now, if siege tanks are sieging your nat, then you somehow lost your MSC early or threw down all your time warps willy nilly, which equates to you making a serious mistake and not having any Photon Overcharge, and if that results in you getting your nat nexus sieged then you fucked up royally and deserve to lose or got outplayed and still deserve to lose. Even with Avilo's proposed changes the 1/1/1 is still trash, a simple move out with basic GW units and MSC just kills it, time warps prevent marines from kiting back and allow zealots to close the gap on marines and tanks. And even if the terran gets close to the nat a simple PO will keep the tanks out of range long enough to get Colossus. If you opened with SG its even more one sided because oracles can provide vision via revelation, can be used as as fighting units in conjuncture with GW units, way earlier I should add, leading to the quick destruction of the push, you can also add Phoenix in to kill banshees, much more effective then stalkers. There is also no way a Terran player meching will push at you in the early game. A tank based army is very gas expensive, if he invested into that for a early push he is sacrificing infrastructure or upgrades, or both, and you gain a lead there, + he is sacrificing safety since he might not leave anything behind, and the mech army is still extremely fragile early game. So if he pushes with a tank based mech army at you early game and you didn't see it in time and crush it, then you, again made a very grave mistake and still deserve to lose. And if its tanks sieging your nat late game, then the game is over anyway and you are just delaying the inevitable. The reason I am using such an aggressive and condescending tone is because a lot of posters here have earned it, throwing around speculation with nearly no analysis behind it, they don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly. I have not missed your point, I am just talking about avilo's proposals that you defended with regard to actually balancing and fixing the game. I am not proposing to keep the game as it is. I even agree that you have to somehow adjust the protoss aggressive and defensive options. However, taking away all the aggressive options completely can't be the solution. It might be fair if you want one side to be super passive and one having all the options but then we would just invert the roles in TvP instead of fixing the MU. Also, you mentioning how amazing stargate vs 1/1/1 or banshees in general is. However, with avilo's changes going through, toss would not open stargate anymore since it would be almost useless against bio play. And the power of the Msc and nexus cannon against tank based attacks is not that the nexus shoots but rather that the msc provides vision that is greater than the attack range of the tank.only that way you can actually protect the nexus from being shot at. This obviously is only a early/early-mid game problem, yet this is the stage that needs to be addressed in current tvp. Finally, I am rather astonished about what you say about tank pushes. with the proposed changes,toss would be forced to play very passive to be safe while Terran now gets free siege, cheaper cloak and a cheaper armory while being able to build emergency turrents without the need for an engibay. Thus Terran mech pushes would hit harder and/or earlier with a lot less draw backs.
What?
The power of the msc vs 1/1/1 tank pushes is the vision not Overcharge?
I'm sorry, but with less vision it can accomplish exactly the same, PO is 13 range, MSC vision is 11, Tanks 13, Vikings 9, Marines 5.
You can still provide vision ezpz no risk exactly like vikings in tvt do. Msc vision reduce changes NOTHING in Tank vs PO Ne us.
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On February 02 2014 01:47 tar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2014 01:44 XXXSmOke wrote:On February 02 2014 00:45 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On February 02 2014 00:33 Destructicon wrote:
The reason I am using such an aggressive and condescending tone is because a lot of posters here have earned it, throwing around speculation with nearly no analysis behind it, they don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly.
Are you not doing the same? Both yours and avilo's arguments have nearly no analysis behind it, you don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly. Indeed, you have earned such an aggressive and condescending tone. Wat. They have two incredibly detailed posts stating specific reasons why these things are problems. What kind of analysis are you looking for? The usual bullshit that gets posted here? Herp Derp Derp 52%-48% winrate, Herp Derp Derp MC vs MMA Herp Derp Derp Derp I highly prefer people like these guys clearly addressing the issue which is as clear as fucking daylight about TvP problems, and then suggesting some changes. The problem is now a days people see the word avilo... scroll past his post and reply with Herp Derp Derp Avilo mother fucking Derp Derp Herp AVILO Herp Derp Derp Nope, he is actually right: the whole analysis focuses on how it helps Terran, not how it fixes the MU.
Let me ask you this, Who really needs help in TvP right now the toss or the Terran?
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On February 02 2014 01:57 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2014 00:57 tar wrote:On February 02 2014 00:33 Destructicon wrote:On February 02 2014 00:10 tar wrote:On February 01 2014 22:29 Destructicon wrote:
Damn, the amount off ignorance and hate being flung at Avilo is astounding.
Almost all the suggestions he has made are very sensible and much needed changes.
The problem with Protoss, the real imbalance is that they have way too many options, options that, also limit the options terrans can do. TvP late game isn't easy for Terran, but it isn't completely impossible either, you just need both T and P to enter it on even footing.
At the moment terrans can't enter it on even footing. The early aggressive options of toss, Oracles, Blink all-in, DTs etc, force the terran into using very safe and conservative builds. However because the builds are so safe protoss exploits them with extremely greedy builds, that can't be countered almost at all, because the MSC just gives way, way too much safety.
Terran is thus stuck between a rock and a hard place, they can't be aggressive at all, because of MSC, but they also can't be too greedy, because of all the lethal pressure toss has.
Something has to give, its either the toss lose some of their defensive power, so terran can actually be aggressive and force toss to be less greedy, or toss itself loses some of its aggressive options so that terran can be more greedy and enter the late game even. The logic here is perfectly fine, I only see outbreaks of QQ from protosses, fearful they will actually have to put in some effort to play.
I see nothing wrong reverting the oracle speed, it was a dumb buff to begin with, it was contested and complained against since the very beginning, even protoss pros agreed that it was a bad change. The oracle limits terrans build order choices, you always have to play safe, you always need to take them into account, because if you don't you just die to it, there is no middle ground there.
I also don't see anything wrong with reducing the sight range of MSC. The MSC already breaks so many rules in the game, its a scouting tool, army support/utility and defensive tool, its too versatile, it has too much, it does too much. The MSC should never have been made so strong, its high time two of its utilities got cut, at the very least the sight range should be reduced so that terran can't have a free scout and free vision of the high ground, with zero counterplay to it.
DT Shrine cost was also stupid. Protoss is already very safe because of MSC, it stands to reason then that if defense is so cheep for them then their aggressive options, at least early game, should be more expensive, to balance things out, so they can't actually put on aggression while still staying 100% safe. You don't see any creative DT strats either, they are used as a gimmick early game to gain a huge lead, or they are used as a reliable harass tool late game in all MUs, the cost of it won't nerf it in the late game, but it will tone down the huge number of possible game ending aggressive options toss has in the early game.
Finally, I have it makes 0 sense anymore for Missile turret to require a engy bay to build, the missile turret can only shoot up, it also costs 100 damn minerals and you need at least 1 per mineral line to be safe. Spore was even changed to not require Evo chambers any more, I don't see why Missile turrets can't get the same treatment. I'm not sure about the sensor tower, I think that should still require an ebay.
I also agree with the armory change, it doesn't affect any unit balance, it helps with one of the core problems of mech, setting up infrastructure, because for the longest time you'll be working off 2 base and have to spend gas on upgrades, infrastructure (factories, SP and all their addons) as well as army, and you can't do it all at once off just 440 gas per minute, which leaves the mech army player with glaring weaknesses, since all of the above cost shit loads of gas.
Quite frankly I just think most of you are hating on Avilo for no good reason, almost none of you presented any counter arguments as to why his suggestions are bad, you only vaguely touch on how it should, supposedly, break TvP by swinging it in terran favor, but I've yet to see explanations as to how that would happen.
All I see is mindless bashing and bronze league logic used to counter quite sensible, actually very conservative proposals.
Edit: And since I seem to have went off topic slightly, I hate all the proposed changes, the only good one is the time warp change, but it doesn't do enough, all the changes are bad because they fail to address the appropriate issue in the appropriate way, but I already explained why in the last thread. It's funny that you start your post with claiming that shit was flung at someone yet then you yourself resort to condescending or plain insulting language. The problem with avilo's quite conservative proposals is, that in combination they are not conservative proposals anymore. It is a onesided approach to the issue that results in all problems for Terran solved while Toss would be where they were in the era of the infamous 1/1/1 with the added benefit of banshee buffs. Back then, the complains of Tosses were similar to those of Terrans today: lack of scouting info, variety of Terran harass options and macro follow ups as well a lack of harass options. Also, horribly strong Terran all ins (ie 1/1/1 or marine hellion drops) Just some quick theorycrafting how avilo's changes would affect Tosses options: -Going DTs? Well with old cost and no engibay-turrets? Reduced to an all in that needs to do significant damage (which it should not do anymore). -Oracles? - slow oracles with turrets available on the fly basically make it the same as going DTs. on the other hand: -Tanks sieging your natural and cloaked banshees attacking your mineral line will be painfull without 14 vision range msc especially when you consider that tanks then would do bonus damage versus shields. This would be even stronger than in wol since tanks don't need siege mode research and cloak is considerably cheaper than it was back then. All in all, the game would be back at super passive protoss turtle play with no aggressive options apart from heavy gateway all ins (only them being a lot weaker with widow mines, free siege mode and stuff) I may reiterate that I don't find any one of those changes unreasonable in itself but they for sure add up and make mech play a round thing against Toss, while leaving Toss in a situation that reminds me very much of WoL and I don't want to think about the implications those change would have for PvZ. You seem to have missed the point where I said that, Protoss is already extremely safe against terran aggression while being able to put on a load of pressure themselves or even kill, one of those has to be addressed. Its either toss defensive power needs to be toned down, to the point where terran can put on enough aggression to force the toss to potentially spend more gas on being safe (thus slowing their tech and reducing their greed), or the toss pressures need to be severely nerfed. In the context of Toss still keeping their MSC defensive powers mostly intact (which is what this balance patch proposes), then having all the toss offensive options nerfed is a fair and justified. If you want toss to keep all its offensive toys then propose a nerf to the MSC defensive abilities, you can't have both extreme safety early game and extreme offensive power with no risk reward involved, that's not how an RTS is supposed to work. I find it amusing you mention banshees, they are hard countered by almost anything in the protoss arsenal. If toss goes SG for quick oracle then they will be able to also make 1 phoenix to shut down the aggression. If they opened Robo they can get an obs and stalkers to chase it away. Now, if siege tanks are sieging your nat, then you somehow lost your MSC early or threw down all your time warps willy nilly, which equates to you making a serious mistake and not having any Photon Overcharge, and if that results in you getting your nat nexus sieged then you fucked up royally and deserve to lose or got outplayed and still deserve to lose. Even with Avilo's proposed changes the 1/1/1 is still trash, a simple move out with basic GW units and MSC just kills it, time warps prevent marines from kiting back and allow zealots to close the gap on marines and tanks. And even if the terran gets close to the nat a simple PO will keep the tanks out of range long enough to get Colossus. If you opened with SG its even more one sided because oracles can provide vision via revelation, can be used as as fighting units in conjuncture with GW units, way earlier I should add, leading to the quick destruction of the push, you can also add Phoenix in to kill banshees, much more effective then stalkers. There is also no way a Terran player meching will push at you in the early game. A tank based army is very gas expensive, if he invested into that for a early push he is sacrificing infrastructure or upgrades, or both, and you gain a lead there, + he is sacrificing safety since he might not leave anything behind, and the mech army is still extremely fragile early game. So if he pushes with a tank based mech army at you early game and you didn't see it in time and crush it, then you, again made a very grave mistake and still deserve to lose. And if its tanks sieging your nat late game, then the game is over anyway and you are just delaying the inevitable. The reason I am using such an aggressive and condescending tone is because a lot of posters here have earned it, throwing around speculation with nearly no analysis behind it, they don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly. I have not missed your point, I am just talking about avilo's proposals that you defended with regard to actually balancing and fixing the game. I am not proposing to keep the game as it is. I even agree that you have to somehow adjust the protoss aggressive and defensive options. However, taking away all the aggressive options completely can't be the solution. It might be fair if you want one side to be super passive and one having all the options but then we would just invert the roles in TvP instead of fixing the MU. Also, you mentioning how amazing stargate vs 1/1/1 or banshees in general is. However, with avilo's changes going through, toss would not open stargate anymore since it would be almost useless against bio play. And the power of the Msc and nexus cannon against tank based attacks is not that the nexus shoots but rather that the msc provides vision that is greater than the attack range of the tank.only that way you can actually protect the nexus from being shot at. This obviously is only a early/early-mid game problem, yet this is the stage that needs to be addressed in current tvp. Finally, I am rather astonished about what you say about tank pushes. with the proposed changes,toss would be forced to play very passive to be safe while Terran now gets free siege, cheaper cloak and a cheaper armory while being able to build emergency turrents without the need for an engibay. Thus Terran mech pushes would hit harder and/or earlier with a lot less draw backs. What? The power of the msc vs 1/1/1 tank pushes is the vision not Overcharge? I'm sorry, but with less vision it can accomplish exactly the same, PO is 13 range, MSC vision is 11, Tanks 13, Vikings 9, Marines 5. You can still provide vision ezpz no risk exactly like vikings in tvt do. Msc vision reduce changes NOTHING in Tank vs PO Ne us.
Msc vision is 14 atm but even with 11 it would be alright, however, it was suggested to eliminate its vision or reduce it to a point it can't grant vision for stalkers to shoot up ramps (that would be about 3 range). With those changes PO would be useless against tanks
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On February 02 2014 02:01 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2014 01:47 tar wrote:On February 02 2014 01:44 XXXSmOke wrote:On February 02 2014 00:45 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On February 02 2014 00:33 Destructicon wrote:
The reason I am using such an aggressive and condescending tone is because a lot of posters here have earned it, throwing around speculation with nearly no analysis behind it, they don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly.
Are you not doing the same? Both yours and avilo's arguments have nearly no analysis behind it, you don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly. Indeed, you have earned such an aggressive and condescending tone. Wat. They have two incredibly detailed posts stating specific reasons why these things are problems. What kind of analysis are you looking for? The usual bullshit that gets posted here? Herp Derp Derp 52%-48% winrate, Herp Derp Derp MC vs MMA Herp Derp Derp Derp I highly prefer people like these guys clearly addressing the issue which is as clear as fucking daylight about TvP problems, and then suggesting some changes. The problem is now a days people see the word avilo... scroll past his post and reply with Herp Derp Derp Avilo mother fucking Derp Derp Herp AVILO Herp Derp Derp Nope, he is actually right: the whole analysis focuses on how it helps Terran, not how it fixes the MU. Let me ask you this, Who really needs help in TvP right now the toss or the Terran?
Let me exaggerated a bit: Like someone above jokingly proposed, one could introduce a Terran ability that kills half of Tosses units for 50 energy. Would help Terrans, the game would still be shit though.
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On February 02 2014 01:50 Clbull wrote:
I'm going to be very delicate about the Hydralisk change. I don't want to use banned terminology on TL especially in a balance discussion.
However, I feel like halving the gas cost of Hydras is only going to destroy ZvT and ZvP. If Hydras suddenly become so gas-efficient that you can devise a build order using a generator and amass them in a 200/200 timing with perhaps 1/1 upgrades, speed and range upgrades, then you are going to see two dead matchups.
We've already seen how powerful Roach Hydra Infestor can be in ZvT especially in the hands of a good player and if gas costs are halved, that means reinforcing with a good mix of roaches and hydras is much easier and there will be more Infestors on the field when the Zerg is in a good situation.
In ZvP, we're just going to see Hydralisk busts, perhaps combined with drop aggression. Before, that was too costly to really pull off. Now? BRING ON THE LISKS!!!!
ZvT won't give a damn about hydralisk buff. Let's be real: they are just ineffective vs anything the terran does (unless you count the 2-2 roach hydra timing which is just an all-in based on the terran not making tanks).
ZvP will be broken for sure though.
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On February 02 2014 02:01 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2014 01:47 tar wrote:On February 02 2014 01:44 XXXSmOke wrote:On February 02 2014 00:45 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On February 02 2014 00:33 Destructicon wrote:
The reason I am using such an aggressive and condescending tone is because a lot of posters here have earned it, throwing around speculation with nearly no analysis behind it, they don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly.
Are you not doing the same? Both yours and avilo's arguments have nearly no analysis behind it, you don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly. Indeed, you have earned such an aggressive and condescending tone. Wat. They have two incredibly detailed posts stating specific reasons why these things are problems. What kind of analysis are you looking for? The usual bullshit that gets posted here? Herp Derp Derp 52%-48% winrate, Herp Derp Derp MC vs MMA Herp Derp Derp Derp I highly prefer people like these guys clearly addressing the issue which is as clear as fucking daylight about TvP problems, and then suggesting some changes. The problem is now a days people see the word avilo... scroll past his post and reply with Herp Derp Derp Avilo mother fucking Derp Derp Herp AVILO Herp Derp Derp Nope, he is actually right: the whole analysis focuses on how it helps Terran, not how it fixes the MU. Let me ask you this, Who really needs help in TvP right now the toss or the Terran? Terran obviously.
But what he suggested doesn't help the matchup become balanced. Just completely reverse the situation. The suggestions separately aren't too bad (other than removing vision from mothership core. Reduce it? Sure. But not remove it), but the problem is, if all are done together like suggested it would simply reverse the situation and the matchup would be broken in Terran's favour instead of Protoss's. It would take away any and all ability for Protoss to do anything other than WoL turtle style.
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On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:
1. Revert Oracle Speed
Agreed
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This is silly. Sight range decrease I'm down for, such a massive decrease, no. Should only be decreased to the point where it's a little riskier to move in and get the core sniped.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
Either this or the oracle nerf, you can't have both my friend. Also no to the sensor towers, they should still require eng bay
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
Again, either this or the turret buff. You really can't have both. You're just being plain biased now, you essentially want for terran and protoss to switch roles (where terran can now easily defend anything and toss loses a bunch of options. That's not good for the game to just revert sh*tty roles)
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
The problem with buffing armory is that it makes it even easier/faster for bio players to get their upgrades (which scale massively), and we don't really need to be buffing bio right now. Ironically, the ghost change does the same lol I don't agree with either change.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
God no lol
On top of that, I reaaaaaally can't believe they actually put the hydra change in the test map. I will be SHOCKED if they go through with it
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On February 02 2014 02:05 tar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2014 02:01 XXXSmOke wrote:On February 02 2014 01:47 tar wrote:On February 02 2014 01:44 XXXSmOke wrote:On February 02 2014 00:45 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On February 02 2014 00:33 Destructicon wrote:
The reason I am using such an aggressive and condescending tone is because a lot of posters here have earned it, throwing around speculation with nearly no analysis behind it, they don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly.
Are you not doing the same? Both yours and avilo's arguments have nearly no analysis behind it, you don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly. Indeed, you have earned such an aggressive and condescending tone. Wat. They have two incredibly detailed posts stating specific reasons why these things are problems. What kind of analysis are you looking for? The usual bullshit that gets posted here? Herp Derp Derp 52%-48% winrate, Herp Derp Derp MC vs MMA Herp Derp Derp Derp I highly prefer people like these guys clearly addressing the issue which is as clear as fucking daylight about TvP problems, and then suggesting some changes. The problem is now a days people see the word avilo... scroll past his post and reply with Herp Derp Derp Avilo mother fucking Derp Derp Herp AVILO Herp Derp Derp Nope, he is actually right: the whole analysis focuses on how it helps Terran, not how it fixes the MU. Let me ask you this, Who really needs help in TvP right now the toss or the Terran? Let me exaggerated a bit: Like someone above jokingly proposed, one could introduce a Terran ability that kills half of Tosses units for 50 energy. Would help Terrans, the game would still be shit though.
Ok?? Thanks for the exaggeration to dodge whats going on here. Its not really that difficult to understand...
P's current state is that it is too powerful at all stages of the game, making it incredibly difficult to play against because your opponent can be the greediest fucker and get away with it and laugh at you late game, or he can all in you 50 different ways and kill you. This is not clearly not good design to have a race with so many strengths and so many options in a game that itself is already way to volatile.
So what do most of the T's post here and want? Some honest nerfs to Toss to diminish the over barring strengths so that Terran can do some damage and create a more balanced effect for the match up. Go re-read Avilos post, and please no more exaggerations.
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Austria24417 Posts
The hydra change is never ever going through
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On February 02 2014 02:10 Karpfen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2014 01:50 Clbull wrote:
I'm going to be very delicate about the Hydralisk change. I don't want to use banned terminology on TL especially in a balance discussion.
However, I feel like halving the gas cost of Hydras is only going to destroy ZvT and ZvP. If Hydras suddenly become so gas-efficient that you can devise a build order using a generator and amass them in a 200/200 timing with perhaps 1/1 upgrades, speed and range upgrades, then you are going to see two dead matchups.
We've already seen how powerful Roach Hydra Infestor can be in ZvT especially in the hands of a good player and if gas costs are halved, that means reinforcing with a good mix of roaches and hydras is much easier and there will be more Infestors on the field when the Zerg is in a good situation.
In ZvP, we're just going to see Hydralisk busts, perhaps combined with drop aggression. Before, that was too costly to really pull off. Now? BRING ON THE LISKS!!!! ZvT won't give a damn about hydralisk buff. Let's be real: they are just ineffective vs anything the terran does (unless you count the 2-2 roach hydra timing which is just an all-in based on the terran not making tanks). ZvP will be broken for sure though.
Actually, Roach Hydra is viable vs Bio in ZvT. The problem is it's really easy to play too greedy and you generally needed Infestors as support. It also stretches you very thin and is semi-weak against mass Marauders. This build got me from Gold League to Diamond League during mid-2013. The only time I really lost to it was against a Master Terran who pretty much outmultitasked me and kept continually sniping bases. I also couldn't take him in straight engagements despite equal upgrades, good fungals and establishing concaves because 4 base Terran production of bio is off the fucking charts.
The idea is that Hydralisks do insane DPS provided they do not get focused down. They can also target-fire medivacs and greatly reduce the healing potential of a bioball and force the Terran opponent to spend far more gas than he would have wanted on replenishing his Medivac count.
If Hydralisks cost half as much gas to reinforce then this style will dominate ZvT. Hydras will end up super viable to just straight-up mass against Mech or amass alongside a Roach frontline against Bio. The fact is Hydras and Roaches still get 3-shotted by Siege Tanks regardless and Hydras can do superior DPS to Roaches and have superior Range. They also synergize a lot better with Vipers.
The low gas cost of Hydralisks could also encourage Zergs to play like Terrans, macro like crazy and do multi pronged Overlord drop aggression with 2 overlords and 8 hydras for instance, which would demolish mineral lines and bases.
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On February 02 2014 02:20 DarkLordOlli wrote:
The hydra change is never ever going through
I thought the same thing about the oracle speed buff, queen range, ect. Blizzard hasn't been listening. Not saying it will go through but bad things have.
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On February 02 2014 02:12 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2014 02:01 XXXSmOke wrote:On February 02 2014 01:47 tar wrote:On February 02 2014 01:44 XXXSmOke wrote:On February 02 2014 00:45 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On February 02 2014 00:33 Destructicon wrote:
The reason I am using such an aggressive and condescending tone is because a lot of posters here have earned it, throwing around speculation with nearly no analysis behind it, they don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly.
Are you not doing the same? Both yours and avilo's arguments have nearly no analysis behind it, you don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly. Indeed, you have earned such an aggressive and condescending tone. Wat. They have two incredibly detailed posts stating specific reasons why these things are problems. What kind of analysis are you looking for? The usual bullshit that gets posted here? Herp Derp Derp 52%-48% winrate, Herp Derp Derp MC vs MMA Herp Derp Derp Derp I highly prefer people like these guys clearly addressing the issue which is as clear as fucking daylight about TvP problems, and then suggesting some changes. The problem is now a days people see the word avilo... scroll past his post and reply with Herp Derp Derp Avilo mother fucking Derp Derp Herp AVILO Herp Derp Derp Nope, he is actually right: the whole analysis focuses on how it helps Terran, not how it fixes the MU. Let me ask you this, Who really needs help in TvP right now the toss or the Terran? Terran obviously. But what he suggested doesn't help the matchup become balanced. Just completely reverse the situation. The suggestions separately aren't too bad (other than removing vision from mothership core. Reduce it? Sure. But not remove it), but the problem is, if all are done together like suggested it would simply reverse the situation and the matchup would be broken in Terran's favour instead of Protoss's. It would take away any and all ability for Protoss to do anything other than WoL turtle style.
Of course, if they did every single change in one patch that might be overkill, that's not the point of suggestions. When people post a laundry list of things its more aimed at the idea of hoping that some of them make it through at a time until the MU is healed. Even if Blizz just started with with 1-2 changes it would be a great help as Terran could get a better footing on what the P can and can not do in the early game, it could open more new BO's and new ways to play.
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On February 02 2014 02:19 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2014 02:05 tar wrote:On February 02 2014 02:01 XXXSmOke wrote:On February 02 2014 01:47 tar wrote:On February 02 2014 01:44 XXXSmOke wrote:On February 02 2014 00:45 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On February 02 2014 00:33 Destructicon wrote:
The reason I am using such an aggressive and condescending tone is because a lot of posters here have earned it, throwing around speculation with nearly no analysis behind it, they don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly.
Are you not doing the same? Both yours and avilo's arguments have nearly no analysis behind it, you don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly. Indeed, you have earned such an aggressive and condescending tone. Wat. They have two incredibly detailed posts stating specific reasons why these things are problems. What kind of analysis are you looking for? The usual bullshit that gets posted here? Herp Derp Derp 52%-48% winrate, Herp Derp Derp MC vs MMA Herp Derp Derp Derp I highly prefer people like these guys clearly addressing the issue which is as clear as fucking daylight about TvP problems, and then suggesting some changes. The problem is now a days people see the word avilo... scroll past his post and reply with Herp Derp Derp Avilo mother fucking Derp Derp Herp AVILO Herp Derp Derp Nope, he is actually right: the whole analysis focuses on how it helps Terran, not how it fixes the MU. Let me ask you this, Who really needs help in TvP right now the toss or the Terran? Let me exaggerated a bit: Like someone above jokingly proposed, one could introduce a Terran ability that kills half of Tosses units for 50 energy. Would help Terrans, the game would still be shit though. Ok?? Thanks for the exaggeration to dodge whats going on here. Its not really that difficult to understand... P's current state is that it is too powerful at all stages of the game, making it incredibly difficult to play against because your opponent can be the greediest fucker and get away with it and laugh at you late game, or he can all in you 50 different ways and kill you. This is not clearly not good design to have a race with so many strengths and so many options in a game that itself is already way to volatile. So what do most of the T's post here and want? Some honest nerfs to Toss to diminish the over barring strengths so that Terran can do some damage and create a more balanced effect for the match up. Go re-read Avilos post, and please no more exaggerations.
uhm...yes...or rather...no. I actually don't know if we agree or not.
edit: reading through your last post, I suppose we actually agree on the core matter.
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Patch is just bad, sorry, I don't drink poisoned water when I'm thirsty.
Aside from hydra change (which would break ZvP balance), this is all useless patching considering the gravity
of the situation.Terran are currently at a worse point than any race has ever been in Starcraft 2.
Korean T PGM lose to foreigners on a constant basis. 10% of T in code S.
Therefore, Blizzard should really question their patching algorithm (and history) which brought us there...
Like,
1/.Why did we iteratively nerfed the hellbat drop strategy until no T did it again ?
2/.Why did we nerfed the widow mines to a point where suddenly the best T now go Mech or bio/hellbat in TvZ ?
3/.How could we hope for T doing good considering they sucked in late WOL and we nerfed all their serious
HOTS additions ?
Blizzard have genious developpers and artists, but their balance teams are among the worse you could think of.
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