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Call to Action: January 31 Balance Testing

Forum Index > SC2 General
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juicyjames *
Profile Joined August 2011
United States3815 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-01 05:43:50
February 01 2014 01:09 GMT
#1
http://us.battle.net//sc2/en/blog/12701117
http://eu.battle.net//sc2/en/blog/12701117

[image loading]
Banner by Existor

We’ve just published a new Balance Test Map to the StarCraft II Custom Games list titled "Frost LE (2.1.0 Balance v1.0)" in order to test a few balance tweaks across all three races in Heart of the Swarm multiplayer. During this testing phase, please keep in mind that none of the changes listed below are final. Our plan is to first explore how each change impacts the game and potentially test additional changes after reviewing your feedback. Let's have a look at what you'll be testing:

Protoss
  • Mothership Core
    • Photon Overcharge duration decreased from 60 to 50 seconds.
    • Time Warp energy cost increased from 75 to 100.
  • Tempest
    • Resonance Coil ground weapon damage increased from 30 to 30 + 30 vs. Structures.
Terran
  • Ghost
    • Starting energy increased from 50 to 75.
    • The Moebius Reactor upgrade has been removed from the Ghost Academy.
Zerg
  • Hydralisk
    • Cost decreased from 100/50 to 100/25.


New Balance Testing Extension Mod

We’ve also created a new Extension Mod for balance testing so that you can try your hand with these changes on maps other than Frost LE. Those of you who are interested in trying out the Extension Mod can use the following steps to get a game started:

You can start a game with the balance testing Extension Mod using the following steps:
  1. Navigate to Browse Maps on the Custom Games menu,
  2. Select a map and click the Create with Mod button in the lower right corner,
  3. Choose to sort by Blizzard Mods from the dropdown list at the top of the screen.
  4. Select the “Balance Test Mod” Extension from the list and then hit Create Game.


If you're interested in the StarCraft II Balance Team's reasoning behind each change, you can check out David Kim's recent forum post.

We’d like to acknowledge that in the days following David Kim’s forum post, we’ve received lots of feedback on the proposed changes, some positive, some negative. However, we’d like to avoid dropping or altering any of them before we’ve had the chance to see how they play out during testing. With this in mind, we’d like to remind you that feedback based on playtesting is the most helpful information you can share with us at this time. We kindly ask that you spend some time playing games on the test map before offering your thoughts on the changes listed above.

As always, thank you for your continued feedback and support. We’d like to restate that none of the changes listed above are final. Once you feel you’ve had enough time to test thoroughly, we welcome you to join us in this discussion thread.


Poll: Impressions on MsC Photon Overcharge time decrease?

Approve (249)
 
76%

Disapprove (63)
 
19%

Neutral (17)
 
5%

329 total votes

Your vote: Impressions on MsC Photon Overcharge time decrease?

(Vote): Approve
(Vote): Disapprove
(Vote): Neutral


Poll: Impressions on MsC Time Warp energy increase?

Approve (244)
 
78%

Disapprove (60)
 
19%

Neutral (10)
 
3%

314 total votes

Your vote: Impressions on MsC Time Warp energy increase?

(Vote): Approve
(Vote): Disapprove
(Vote): Neutral


Poll: Impressions on Tempest structure damage increase?

Disapprove (202)
 
58%

Approve (114)
 
33%

Neutral (31)
 
9%

347 total votes

Your vote: Impressions on Tempest structure damage increase?

(Vote): Approve
(Vote): Disapprove
(Vote): Neutral


Poll: Impressions on Ghost starting energy increase?

Approve (196)
 
59%

Disapprove (107)
 
32%

Neutral (30)
 
9%

333 total votes

Your vote: Impressions on Ghost starting energy increase?

(Vote): Approve
(Vote): Disapprove
(Vote): Neutral


Poll: Impressions on Hydralisk cost decrease?

Disapprove (260)
 
60%

Approve (146)
 
34%

Neutral (25)
 
6%

431 total votes

Your vote: Impressions on Hydralisk cost decrease?

(Vote): Approve
(Vote): Disapprove
(Vote): Neutral

This Week in SC2Find out what happened 'This Week in Starcraft 2': http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=278126
Talack
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada2742 Posts
February 01 2014 01:15 GMT
#2
I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 01 2014 01:17 GMT
#3
Madness. I'm sure the results will be very interesting. All hydras all the time.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
TurboMaN
Profile Joined October 2005
Germany925 Posts
February 01 2014 01:19 GMT
#4
10s Photon overcharge won't change much imo.
It is still a mechanism which allows camping while teching hard.
Jerom
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands588 Posts
February 01 2014 01:19 GMT
#5
I'm sad they didn't at all consider any of the community's suggestions and put in some new ones (most importantly, reducing msc vision).
riceant
Profile Joined October 2012
Canada54 Posts
February 01 2014 01:21 GMT
#6
WHAT ABOUT MSC RANGE??? CAN HE NOT READ THAT EVERYONE HAS BEEN ASKING FOR A MSC RANGE NERF??? EVEN PROTOSSES ARE ASKING FOR IT.

User was warned for this post
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -Albert Einstein
Existor
Profile Joined July 2010
Russian Federation4295 Posts
February 01 2014 01:22 GMT
#7
The most WEIRDEST from design point change for Tempest. Why they can not make Tempest attacks vs massives share to buildings? With this patch Tempest will have FOUR (!!!) difference attack types:

- Versus non-massive air
- versus air massive
- Versus buildings
- versus ground
blooblooblahblah
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia4163 Posts
February 01 2014 01:26 GMT
#8
Hydralisk change is stupid, apart from that i don't have too much problem with the rest of the changes they're testing. Although, i still think they ain't targeting the right things with the mothership core nerfs. Especially the photon overcharge nerf, which only really has a significant effect on PvP.
Ganzi beat me without stim. Ostojiy beat me with a nydus. Siphonn beat me with probes. Revival beat my sentry-immortal all-in.
SiaBBo
Profile Joined February 2011
Finland132 Posts
February 01 2014 01:27 GMT
#9
Sad change. Was hoping that they would reconsider every change without even putting them in test. Hydra won't go throught, Tempest change is just stupid and other changes doesn't really solve the real problems. Hopefully they listen to community and try to do some real changes.
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-01 01:50:49
February 01 2014 01:31 GMT
#10
On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote:
I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S


That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...

I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.

The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...

Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.

If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:

1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.

2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.

This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.

This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.

3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.

What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."

It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.

This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.

4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.

It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.

That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.

5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.

This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.

This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...

Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.


6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.

This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.

The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.

Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.

Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.

p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Sup
Killmouse
Profile Joined August 2010
Austria5700 Posts
February 01 2014 01:32 GMT
#11
On February 01 2014 10:22 Existor wrote:
The most WEIRDEST from design point change for Tempest. Why they can not make Tempest attacks vs massives share to buildings? With this patch Tempest will have FOUR (!!!) difference attack types:

- Versus non-massive air
- versus air massive
- Versus buildings
- versus ground

Cauz blizz is like Yolo
yo
Die4Ever
Profile Joined August 2010
United States17684 Posts
February 01 2014 01:37 GMT
#12
Ok I wanna see some sick tempest rushes now lol. I still think they should've given bonus damage vs buildings to carriers instead of tempests.
"Expert" mods4ever.com
FeyFey
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany10114 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-01 02:01:24
February 01 2014 01:57 GMT
#13
carriers with bonus damage to buildings would be evil, as they already have no mercy with those. But giving Tempest bonus damage to buildings actually is a way to deal with the static defense of Swarmhost play, and this way weakening it. Atleast if you don't want to use carriers who are way better against it.
Musicus
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany23576 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-01 02:03:02
February 01 2014 01:58 GMT
#14
On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote:
I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S


+ Show Spoiler +
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...

I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.

The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...

Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.

If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:

1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.

2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.

This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.

This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.

3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.

What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."

It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.

This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.

4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.

It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.

That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.

5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.

This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.

This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...

Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.


6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.

This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.

The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.

Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.

Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.

p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.


Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.

On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Maru and Serral are probably top 5.
tili
Profile Joined July 2012
United States1332 Posts
February 01 2014 02:02 GMT
#15
Oh man - I really didn't think they would continue with the hydra buff!!
[F_]aths
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany3947 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-01 02:08:11
February 01 2014 02:07 GMT
#16
All the whiners about the hydra range: Judgement cometh.

Soon, the hydralisk will be a zerg staple again.
You don't choose to play zerg. The zerg choose you.
pure.Wasted
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada4701 Posts
February 01 2014 02:11 GMT
#17
On February 01 2014 10:58 Musicus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:
On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote:
I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S


+ Show Spoiler +
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...

I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.

The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...

Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.

If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:

1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.

2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.

This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.

This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.

3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.

What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."

It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.

This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.

4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.

It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.

That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.

5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.

This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.

This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...

Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.


6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.

This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.

The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.

Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.

Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.

p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.


Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.

On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.


Blizzard said they want mech to be viable.

The Ghost change will not make mech viable.

Avilo is throwing out suggestions on how to make mech viable.

Problem?
INna Maru-da-FanTa, Bbaby, TY Dream that I'm Flashing you
MattD
Profile Joined March 2013
United Kingdom83 Posts
February 01 2014 02:14 GMT
#18
buffing tempest to stop swarm host turtle, so zerg will have 0 lategame vs protoss then, they never fix the actual problem just bandaid it. The hydra does nothing to address problems in pvz and is a retarded change.
CannonsNCarriers
Profile Joined April 2010
United States638 Posts
February 01 2014 02:17 GMT
#19
On February 01 2014 10:58 Musicus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:
On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote:
I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S


+ Show Spoiler +
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...

I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.

The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...

Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.

If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:

1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.

2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.

This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.

This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.

3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.

What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."

It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.

This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.

4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.

It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.

That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.

5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.

This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.

This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...

Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.


6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.

This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.

The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.

Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.

Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.

p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.


Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.

On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.


All-Ins and Mech are the problem areas of this game. The patch ought focus on those, not the parts that are working.
Dun tuch my cheezbrgr
Musicus
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany23576 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-01 02:23:36
February 01 2014 02:19 GMT
#20
On February 01 2014 11:11 pure.Wasted wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 01 2014 10:58 Musicus wrote:
On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:
On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote:
I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S


+ Show Spoiler +
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...

I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.

The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...

Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.

If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:

1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.

2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.

This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.

This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.

3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.

What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."

It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.

This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.

4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.

It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.

That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.

5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.

This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.

This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...

Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.


6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.

This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.

The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.

Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.

Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.

p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.


Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.

On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.


Blizzard said they want mech to be viable.

The Ghost change will not make mech viable.

Avilo is throwing out suggestions on how to make mech viable.

Problem?


So you have to revert the oracle speed, remove MSC vision range, revert the Dark Shrine cost and remove the ebay requirements for turrets to make mech viable in tvp?

I think his 5th and 6th point are solid suggestions, but the rest is just Avilo wanting to play mech every game, on every map without having to worry about anything.

On February 01 2014 11:17 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
All-Ins and Mech are the problem areas of this game. The patch ought focus on those, not the parts that are working.


I think blink allin and mech are two specific problems of 1 match up and not the only problem areas of the game.
Mech is plenty strong in TvZ and there are even bigger problems like Swarmhosts etc. in the game.
Maru and Serral are probably top 5.
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