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aZealot
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
New Zealand5447 Posts
February 01 2014 05:08 GMT
#61
Well, people have been wanting a patch to shake things up. Looks like we might get it.

I'm keen to play on the test map though. If Blizzard are going to go ahead with a big patch like this, feedback is needed.
KT best KT ~ 2014
geokilla
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada8240 Posts
February 01 2014 05:22 GMT
#62
Do they even read the community feedbacks? Everyone said no to the Tempest change and they proceed to do it anyways =.=
affect
Profile Joined June 2010
United States60 Posts
February 01 2014 05:24 GMT
#63
TBh, I'm not even sure what this patch does. It does not help vs all in protoss play and it does not help with scouting information a Terran player would be able to get, if anything it makes the game even harder for Terran by dealing with another hydra buff. Like how does the ghost buff help random all in play from toss???
im cool
ABN
Profile Joined February 2014
2 Posts
February 01 2014 05:39 GMT
#64
After playing a couple tvps i feel like the ghost change is very strong(im T) hit the standard 10 min medivac timing, activated 2 overcharges and and had 4 ghosts out around the 13 min mark( cut marauder production heavy marine) empd the charge lots and 2 ht GG. I feel like it will give terran a nice timing when toss opens with ht( which is the meta). However if it had been colossi I would have cut the medivacs at 4 and made vikings and the ghosts would still be very effective against the ground army. So I feel like this will make Terran win more in this match up.Terran may now have a better chance in the midgame vs ht openers and can make easier tech switches to combat protoss. I do fear toss allins will be more common. If this change goes through it will be very interesting to see in the hands of top koreans, since the pretty much set the meta.
forsooth
Profile Joined February 2011
United States3648 Posts
February 01 2014 05:39 GMT
#65
So we're gonna see some nasty new hydra timings that could seriously fuck shit up in ZvP and maybe even ZvT, and PO is still going to make it more or less impossible to attack Protoss early, and tempests are going to hurt buildings more for no apparent reason.

The energy cost change for time warp is a legitimately good change but the others are pretty lame or ineffectual. I don't even like the removal of Moebius Reactor because it continues the trend of tech commitments being gutted to help solve other problems. No siege research, no Moebius, no evo chamber for spores, and now we hear talk about removing the ebay requirement for turrets to help with an oracle whose speed buff was never necessary and which there is no reason not to simply revert.
aZealot
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
New Zealand5447 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-01 07:25:15
February 01 2014 06:02 GMT
#66
On February 01 2014 14:39 forsooth wrote:
The energy cost change for time warp is a legitimately good change but the others are pretty lame or ineffectual. I don't even like the removal of Moebius Reactor because it continues the trend of tech commitments being gutted to help solve other problems. No siege research, no Moebius, no evo chamber for spores, and now we hear talk about removing the ebay requirement for turrets to help with an oracle whose speed buff was never necessary and which there is no reason not to simply revert.


I agree with your criticism of the ongoing removal of tech. It's crude, unimaginative and fucking boring.
KT best KT ~ 2014
ABN
Profile Joined February 2014
2 Posts
February 01 2014 06:06 GMT
#67
On February 01 2014 14:39 forsooth wrote:
So we're gonna see some nasty new hydra timings that could seriously fuck shit up in ZvP and maybe even ZvT, and PO is still going to make it more or less impossible to attack Protoss early, and tempests are going to hurt buildings more for no apparent reason.

The energy cost change for time warp is a legitimately good change but the others are pretty lame or ineffectual. I don't even like the removal of Moebius Reactor because it continues the trend of tech commitments being gutted to help solve other problems. No siege research, no Moebius, no evo chamber for spores, and now we hear talk about removing the ebay requirement for turrets to help with an oracle whose speed buff was never necessary and which there is no reason not to simply revert.


Agreed with everything in this post
TAMinator
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia2706 Posts
February 01 2014 06:10 GMT
#68
On February 01 2014 14:22 geokilla wrote:
Do they even read the community feedbacks? Everyone said no to the Tempest change and they proceed to do it anyways =.=

its a test map not everything is finalized. They want people to test shit out its not fucking rocket science to figure that out
DaveSprite
Profile Joined February 2013
United States79 Posts
February 01 2014 06:12 GMT
#69
I'd be perfectly fine with the tempest buff if they changed to that that they could only shoot ground. Then they'd be a much more interesting unit because they couldn't just hard counter other late game air units. They'd have a much clearer place in an airtoss composition, but I also don't play P. So my suggestion's probably useless xD
Caw Caw Motherfucker
JIJI_
Profile Joined October 2010
United States123 Posts
February 01 2014 06:36 GMT
#70
On February 01 2014 14:39 forsooth wrote:
So we're gonna see some nasty new hydra timings that could seriously fuck shit up in ZvP and maybe even ZvT, and PO is still going to make it more or less impossible to attack Protoss early, and tempests are going to hurt buildings more for no apparent reason.

The energy cost change for time warp is a legitimately good change but the others are pretty lame or ineffectual. I don't even like the removal of Moebius Reactor because it continues the trend of tech commitments being gutted to help solve other problems. No siege research, no Moebius, no evo chamber for spores, and now we hear talk about removing the ebay requirement for turrets to help with an oracle whose speed buff was never necessary and which there is no reason not to simply revert.



Pretty much this.

Blizz will NEVER revert a change they do though.

If game was still in beta they might consider it but if you look at stuff they go through with, once something is in no matter how many people hate it or how bad of a mess up it is they will never revert the change they will just nerf it some other way so they don't look incompetent. That's why if the Oracle is ever nerfed I highly doubt they will ever reduce the move-speed they would do something like increase the build-time or make the weapon drain energy faster or who knows what they come up with.

All hail King IdrA!
MrMedic
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada452 Posts
February 01 2014 06:47 GMT
#71
I don't ever play the test realm but I would really like to see what blizzard thinks with the hydras, it should be quite interesting.
dust7
Profile Joined March 2010
199 Posts
February 01 2014 07:15 GMT
#72
I have a feeling that if there was a "Better than nothing, but completely goes into the wrong direction" option in the polls the amount of people who apparently "approve" would massively dwindle.
SC2Toastie
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
Netherlands5725 Posts
February 01 2014 07:19 GMT
#73
Seriously ... -,-!? Me Sad.
Mura Ma Man, Dark Da Dude, Super Shot Sos!
SC2Toastie
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
Netherlands5725 Posts
February 01 2014 07:24 GMT
#74
On February 01 2014 13:52 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
I'm fine with the notion of reducing the cost of the Hydralisk, but it'd be nice if there was a bit of hp nerf or a buff to Storm so they could be more easily fought off with Templar. Especially with Ghosts getting buffed as well.

W H A T ! ? Buff to storm? Gotta be kidding me.
Mura Ma Man, Dark Da Dude, Super Shot Sos!
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
February 01 2014 07:24 GMT
#75
Tested a few games, hydra timings seem basically unbeatable as protoss. Got killed horribly 3 games in a row by an approximately 12 minute hydra max, never had a chance in hell against it.

Tried some PvTs, I laughed really hard when I won repeatedly with a 1 base tempest rush into all-in. Tempests just annihilate buildings, it's hilarious.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
SC2Toastie
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
Netherlands5725 Posts
February 01 2014 07:26 GMT
#76
I''m really sorry but in this patch I see a reasonable buff for Protoss in endgame situations and a nerf that''ll only make PvP more volatile. Zerg gets an amazing tool as well, which I love, Hydralisk are a really cool unit! Terran get''s the removal of an upgrade that''s actually not going to matter -that- much except of 3 ghost all in timings...? That's the way they want to go? Or do I misunderstand something?
Mura Ma Man, Dark Da Dude, Super Shot Sos!
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-01 07:30:47
February 01 2014 07:30 GMT
#77
On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote:
I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S


That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...

I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.

The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...

Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.

If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:

1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.

2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.

This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.

This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.

3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.

What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."

It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.

This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.

4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.

It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.

That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.

5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.

This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.

This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...

Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.


6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.

This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.

The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.

Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.

Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.

p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.


Let me get this straight: you think for PvT to have balance, we need no less than 3 protoss nerfs and 3 terran buffs, combined. Where did you get the idea that the matchup is so imbalanced that we need this many changes all at once?

Had it occurred to you that giving terran more viable options in the matchup is a substantial power increase? If you make mech just as strong as bio, there will be maps where mech is stronger than bio, and terrans will wind up being more powerful on those maps as a result of the versatility.

It's pretty clear that you haven't put any serious thought into actually balancing anything, your bias is showing.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
Tossim111
Profile Joined October 2009
United States246 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-01 07:41:29
February 01 2014 07:33 GMT
#78
Well recent results and from his experience of course. He listed his reasoning for each, and they all seem reasonable.

For example, the role of the mothership core was to be a defensive tool early game, as well as give protoss map presence in the mid to late game. Its currently being abused as an offensive unit early game with the support of stalkers.

The buff the oracle got for speed was to make them more viable for the late game, however what we have seen is the oracle being more effective in the early game where many times is game ending. That, and the combination of the all ins protoss has makes it very difficult for the Terran if the tech isn't able to be spotted in time (which I would say is more difficult than finding a pylon with 6 zerglings).

I thought Tempest rushing was a troll build, but it puts on alot of pressure on the T once the Tempest numbers go to 4; holding against this buff TvP will be really difficult.
SC2Toastie
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
Netherlands5725 Posts
February 01 2014 07:35 GMT
#79
On February 01 2014 16:30 Whitewing wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:
On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote:
I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S


That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...

I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.

The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...

Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.

If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:

1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.

2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.

This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.

This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.

3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.

What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."

It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.

This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.

4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.

It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.

That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.

5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.

This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.

This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...

Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.


6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.

This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.

The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.

Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.

Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.

p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.


Let me get this straight: you think for PvT to have balance, we need no less than 3 protoss nerfs and 3 terran buffs, combined. Where did you get the idea that the matchup is so imbalanced that we need this many changes all at once?

Had it occurred to you that giving terran more viable options in the matchup is a substantial power increase? If you make mech just as strong as bio, there will be maps where mech is stronger than bio, and terrans will wind up being more powerful on those maps as a result of the versatility.

It's pretty clear that you haven't put any serious thought into actually balancing anything, your bias is showing.

It''s Avilo tho. If the guy is know for something it is being a completely dilusional balance whiner.....

Point is, giving Terran one extra option DOES make them way stronger - just like MSC Oracle and blink force certain adaptations to builds, but Avilo doesn''t seem to recognise that. Terran is a really 'dangerous' race in that it becomes VERY dangerous really easilly, because the units are fast, marines are versatile and the race has always been aggressive. I get that buffing Terran is really hard, I highly disagree with the removal of upgrades as is (I mean, we've lost like 5/6 upgrades already, that's such a waste. More and expensive upgrades make tech paths take more dedication, which I like. Removing them all just makes the game more straightforward and less stylistic.
Mura Ma Man, Dark Da Dude, Super Shot Sos!
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-01 07:41:36
February 01 2014 07:36 GMT
#80
On February 01 2014 16:33 Tossim111 wrote:
Well recent results and from his experience of course. He listed his reasoning for each, and they all seem reasonable.

I thought Tempest rushing was a troll build, but it puts on alot of pressure on the T once the Tempest numbers go to 4; holding against this buff TvP will be really difficult.


Recent results are inconclusive. Aligulac put matchup results at around 51% Protoss, 49% terran for the last month. GSL code A seemed to favor toss quite a bit, but proleague seemed to favor terran quite a bit. It seems like it's possible that protoss might have a slight overall advantage in the matchup at the moment, but it's absolutely not a huge one.

I agree with his msc vision range nerf, that's about it.

Oracle openings at the top levels seem like they're mostly disappearing, and when they do happen, don't get very many kills, so I don't understand the complaint around that.

It seems like he just wants his ideal mech build to be just as strong as every other build option for terran, but that is absolutely NOT a legitimate complaint about balance. He also tends to open greedy and go into a really fast 3 base mech build: it's no wonder he dies to protoss aggression. If you play greedy, you sometimes get punished for it. Arguments from experience are essentially anecdotal, and I don't think there are very many people who would agree that Avilo has experience at the top level of play in SC2, which makes an argument from experience fairly useless. His argument would therefore derive value from the actual reasoning provided, which is shoddy at best. He's right about the msc vision, but everyone pretty much knows that.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
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