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4713 Posts
On February 02 2014 08:07 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2014 07:48 Fission wrote:
Blizzard I would like more than 1 or 2 stable TvP openings please. There's 1? What opening is that? I get crushed every TvP game. I'm serious. See my post in the Terran Help Me Thread.
12 Rax, 12 Gas, 12 scout, pull out of gas on 100, build a reaper and then a reactor, get a CC on the high ground, build a 2nd rax, pump marines non stop, 4:30 Engi bay for safety and early upgrades. After you've started your 2nd Rax, CC, bunker at the nat (asuming it was safe to take it), put back into gas. Rally marines to your mineral line just in case. Get 2nd gas at around 5:00, when you have gas start a TL on your rax and then stim, 6:30 factory, 7:30 SP, continue upgrading, producing marines and SCVs, 7:40 to 8:00 3rd gas.
That's what I've seen most of the pros use, with some variations, like not all get the early upgrades or even the early engi, that is Maru's variation, I've also seen ForGG's variation with Reactor first into double reaper.
You also have to adapt your build to a blink all-in, if you see it coming then get a 2nd bunker at nat, 1 or 2 bunkers in your main, a 3rd rax with TL on it, conc shells, double marauder production. You'll probably have to delay your factory just to survive this.
Yeah, basically that's it though, going 14 CC or really early 3rd is a high risk gamble with marginal rewards.
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I like how everyone freaks shit about a test--A TEST. It's a test, you guys. Play the fucker before shooting your mouth off about it, and then even if it sucks, stop crying about a test.
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Avilo is the Terran version of Destiny xD
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On February 02 2014 08:58 Wyrd wrote:
I like how everyone freaks shit about a test--A TEST. It's a test, you guys. Play the fucker before shooting your mouth off about it, and then even if it sucks, stop crying about a test.
Increased oracle speed was also just a test at one point....
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On February 02 2014 08:58 Wyrd wrote:
I like how everyone freaks shit about a test--A TEST. It's a test, you guys. Play the fucker before shooting your mouth off about it, and then even if it sucks, stop crying about a test.
Queen range was just a test they said...
Oracle speed? Just a test!
I'm weary of tests...
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there was this engineer who wanted to test if a plane could also fly with only one wing.
everyone said it was a bad idea. He replied: its just a test ! how do you know it wont work ?!
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On February 02 2014 08:58 Wyrd wrote:
I like how everyone freaks shit about a test--A TEST. It's a test, you guys. Play the fucker before shooting your mouth off about it, and then even if it sucks, stop crying about a test.
The SC2 balance team has a history of trying out ideas that hurt the game more than helping it and then implementing said ideas, e.g., queen and oracle buff.
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This is pretty dissapointing. Sure we can say overall this is a Protoss nerf and a Terran buff but in reality this misses the target in terms of game design by quite a bit.
Blizzard: it's okay to be wrong, but you need to accept your mistakes. Stop being so unwilling to revert changes. This game is due for a massive overhaul
Edit: Typo
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On February 02 2014 08:58 Wyrd wrote:
I like how everyone freaks shit about a test--A TEST. It's a test, you guys. Play the fucker before shooting your mouth off about it, and then even if it sucks, stop crying about a test.
Because Blizzard has a history of going throughout with 80% of their initial changes regardless of feedback. Or they tweak things last minute and have no time to test. This test map should have been released a month ago but DK watched 1 week of PL and held it off because of pro feedback... I am really interested to know which pro he had feedback from.
I also find it strange that they comment on balance in terms of units only and not maps. The maps are a HUGE problem right now.
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On February 02 2014 08:58 Wyrd wrote:
I like how everyone freaks shit about a test--A TEST. It's a test, you guys. Play the fucker before shooting your mouth off about it, and then even if it sucks, stop crying about a test.
Its a misguided test that doesnt fix the issues and just shows how out of touch Blizzard is.
The problem is that this patch will probably go live in a month or so, once they remove the buff the hydras first. Then we will have another 3-4 months of PvP everywhere until we can look forward to the next balance map that might actually address some of the real issues.
So a balanced game in 6 months maybe? I feel like I'm being generous even with that.
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On February 02 2014 10:37 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2014 08:58 Wyrd wrote:
I like how everyone freaks shit about a test--A TEST. It's a test, you guys. Play the fucker before shooting your mouth off about it, and then even if it sucks, stop crying about a test. So a balanced game in 6 months maybe? I feel like I'm being generous even with that.
But the game is balanced! Once you remove skill level!
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MSC changes completely missing the mark. Personally I would like to see Time Warp keep its energy cost, but increase PO energy cost to 125. That way, you cannot cast 2 POs at the same time with a full energy MSC. You CAN, however, cast one PO and a Time Warp. Also, there's now a guaranteed 30 second(ish) break between two POs. This should give the Terran especially some more early game options.
This might hurt PvP quite a bit, but I think buffing the MSC's starting energy to 75 could deal with this. Not sure about this tho. This way your first PO's timing doesn't change at all, but the 2nd one's significantly delayed.
Also, nerfing MSC's vision is also long overdue.
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On February 02 2014 08:07 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2014 07:48 Fission wrote:
Blizzard I would like more than 1 or 2 stable TvP openings please. There's 1? What opening is that? I get crushed every TvP game. I'm serious. See my post in the Terran Help Me Thread.
Are you talking about the game where you attacked and lost your whole army 10 seconds before combat shield was done, and flew all your vikings over their army and never replaced them? Or were you talking about the game where the first Oracle came in at 6:30, and despite being at 500 minerals when it happened, you didn't throw down your Engineering Bay until 8:00, and didn't have a Turret in your main until 10:10?
Bad decision making is a simple thing to fix, but fuck that, lets nerf Protoss into the ground and worry about improving afterwards.
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On February 02 2014 12:16 yokohama wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2014 08:07 geokilla wrote:On February 02 2014 07:48 Fission wrote:
Blizzard I would like more than 1 or 2 stable TvP openings please. There's 1? What opening is that? I get crushed every TvP game. I'm serious. See my post in the Terran Help Me Thread. Are you talking about the game where you attacked and lost your whole army 10 seconds before combat shield was done, and flew all your vikings over their army and never replaced them? Or were you talking about the game where the first Oracle came in at 6:30, and despite being at 500 minerals when it happened, you didn't throw down your Engineering Bay until 8:00, and didn't have a Turret in your main until 10:10? Bad decision making is a simple thing to fix, but fuck that, lets nerf Protoss into the ground and worry about improving afterwards.
You're missing the forest for trees. The whole idea of balance is that the onus on decision-making should be equal. Both sides should be at equal risk in their decisions.
If we count the number of ways Terrans can lose a game, and compare that to the number of ways a Protoss can lose a game; maybe we can get some semblance of where the balance should be.
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Can't wait to try some hydra busts in ZvP. It's about time Protoss actually worry about a midgame zerg timing that isn't some variant of 12 minute max roach.
ZvZ should be a lot more interesting too.
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On February 02 2014 12:45 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2014 12:16 yokohama wrote:On February 02 2014 08:07 geokilla wrote:On February 02 2014 07:48 Fission wrote:
Blizzard I would like more than 1 or 2 stable TvP openings please. There's 1? What opening is that? I get crushed every TvP game. I'm serious. See my post in the Terran Help Me Thread. Are you talking about the game where you attacked and lost your whole army 10 seconds before combat shield was done, and flew all your vikings over their army and never replaced them? Or were you talking about the game where the first Oracle came in at 6:30, and despite being at 500 minerals when it happened, you didn't throw down your Engineering Bay until 8:00, and didn't have a Turret in your main until 10:10? Bad decision making is a simple thing to fix, but fuck that, lets nerf Protoss into the ground and worry about improving afterwards. You're missing the forest for trees. The whole idea of balance is that the onus on decision-making should be equal. Both sides should be at equal risk in their decisions. If we count the number of ways Terrans can lose a game, and compare that to the number of ways a Protoss can lose a game; maybe we can get some semblance of where the balance should be.
I'm not missing the forest for the trees, I am addressing his games, not the overall scope of TvP. I am not advocating that I think Protoss doesn't need a nerf, I'm a Protoss player and I completely agree something needs to be done to help Terran. I'm just getting sick of this guys balance whining when all it really is is a lack of recognizing glaring flaws in his play. I am sure there are times he loses because what he had to do was harder than the Protoss due to balance. I don't think that is true in either of these games I addressed.
On January 31 2014 11:14 geokilla wrote:
Having a limited amount of army and resources, there's no way I could have handled this any better. Right?
With a mindset like that, it probably wouldn't even matter to him if Terran were the favored race in the matchup.
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On February 02 2014 12:59 yokohama wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2014 12:45 plogamer wrote:On February 02 2014 12:16 yokohama wrote:On February 02 2014 08:07 geokilla wrote:On February 02 2014 07:48 Fission wrote:
Blizzard I would like more than 1 or 2 stable TvP openings please. There's 1? What opening is that? I get crushed every TvP game. I'm serious. See my post in the Terran Help Me Thread. Are you talking about the game where you attacked and lost your whole army 10 seconds before combat shield was done, and flew all your vikings over their army and never replaced them? Or were you talking about the game where the first Oracle came in at 6:30, and despite being at 500 minerals when it happened, you didn't throw down your Engineering Bay until 8:00, and didn't have a Turret in your main until 10:10? Bad decision making is a simple thing to fix, but fuck that, lets nerf Protoss into the ground and worry about improving afterwards. You're missing the forest for trees. The whole idea of balance is that the onus on decision-making should be equal. Both sides should be at equal risk in their decisions. If we count the number of ways Terrans can lose a game, and compare that to the number of ways a Protoss can lose a game; maybe we can get some semblance of where the balance should be. I'm not missing the forest for the trees, I am addressing his games, not the overall scope of TvP. I am not advocating that I think Protoss doesn't need a nerf, I'm a Protoss player and I completely agree something needs to be done to help Terran. I'm just getting sick of this guys balance whining when all it really is is a lack of recognizing glaring flaws in his play. I am sure there are times he loses because what he had to do was harder than the Protoss due to balance. I don't think that is true in either of these games I addressed. Show nested quote +On January 31 2014 11:14 geokilla wrote:
Having a limited amount of army and resources, there's no way I could have handled this any better. Right?
With a mindset like that, it probably wouldn't even matter to him if Terran were the favored race in the matchup.
People can make comments on balance despite what their games look like. I know, it's a novel concept. Maybe his complaints are based on his poor play and maybe not valid. But we've seen this at the pro level for awhile now and that's why people are complaining.
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On February 02 2014 13:22 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2014 12:59 yokohama wrote:On February 02 2014 12:45 plogamer wrote:On February 02 2014 12:16 yokohama wrote:On February 02 2014 08:07 geokilla wrote:On February 02 2014 07:48 Fission wrote:
Blizzard I would like more than 1 or 2 stable TvP openings please. There's 1? What opening is that? I get crushed every TvP game. I'm serious. See my post in the Terran Help Me Thread. Are you talking about the game where you attacked and lost your whole army 10 seconds before combat shield was done, and flew all your vikings over their army and never replaced them? Or were you talking about the game where the first Oracle came in at 6:30, and despite being at 500 minerals when it happened, you didn't throw down your Engineering Bay until 8:00, and didn't have a Turret in your main until 10:10? Bad decision making is a simple thing to fix, but fuck that, lets nerf Protoss into the ground and worry about improving afterwards. You're missing the forest for trees. The whole idea of balance is that the onus on decision-making should be equal. Both sides should be at equal risk in their decisions. If we count the number of ways Terrans can lose a game, and compare that to the number of ways a Protoss can lose a game; maybe we can get some semblance of where the balance should be. I'm not missing the forest for the trees, I am addressing his games, not the overall scope of TvP. I am not advocating that I think Protoss doesn't need a nerf, I'm a Protoss player and I completely agree something needs to be done to help Terran. I'm just getting sick of this guys balance whining when all it really is is a lack of recognizing glaring flaws in his play. I am sure there are times he loses because what he had to do was harder than the Protoss due to balance. I don't think that is true in either of these games I addressed. On January 31 2014 11:14 geokilla wrote:
Having a limited amount of army and resources, there's no way I could have handled this any better. Right?
With a mindset like that, it probably wouldn't even matter to him if Terran were the favored race in the matchup. People can make comments on balance despite what their games look like. I know, it's a novel concept. Maybe his complaints are based on his poor play and maybe not valid. But we've seen this at the pro level for awhile now and that's why people are complaining.
Fair enough, I can agree with that.
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Finally got in a couple of games on the test map. Didn't play against good opponents unfortunately, but it did mean that I could try Tempests. I didn't rush them, though; opened SG into 2 base then Beacon and a 3rd. Boy, these things just smash buildings. It was actually fucking cool! Previously, I was opposed to this aspect of the patch (heh, actually most if not all of the patch!) but I can see this tweak opening up a whole different area of the late game in Starcraft.
I don't know if rushing Tempests is really viable against a competent opponent because your ground army will be small and Tempests do diddly squat to anything not massive air or a building. It probably would be abusable on maps with lots of dead air but that remains to be seen. Basically, I like this change but it could use more testing and some tweaks.
Some thoughts are adjusting the damage numbers and making it an upgrade at Beacon (so that it truly is a late game tool for Protoss). Another is for the Tempest design to change slightly when the ability is researched and active so that it is easier to scout and for opponents to be aware of what may be coming (rather like Roaches when they have tunneling claws).
Anyway, originally I did not like this Tempest change because I thought it would upset all P match-ups. But, I am not sure anymore. With some tweaks, I think it could be an exciting change to Protoss and open up a lot of options in late game SC.
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On February 02 2014 15:19 aZealot wrote:
Finally, got in a couple of games on the test map. Didn't play against good opponents unfortunately, but it did mean that I could try Tempests. I didn't rush them, though; opened SG into 2 base then Beacon and a 3rd. Boy, these things just smash buildings. It was actually fucking cool! Previously, I was opposed to this aspect of the patch (heh, actually most if not all of the patch!) but I can see this tweak opening up a whole different area of the late game in Starcraft.
I don't know if rushing Tempests is really viable against a competent opponent because your ground army will be small and Tempests do diddly squat to anything not massive air or a building. It probably would be abusable on maps with lots of dead air but that remains to be seen. Basically, I like this change but it could use more testing and some tweaks. Some thoughts are adjusting the damage numbers and making it an upgrade at Beacon (so that it truly is a late game tool for Protoss).
Another is for the Tempest design to change slightly when the ability is researched and active so that it is easier to scout and for opponents to be aware of what may be coming (rather like Roaches when they have tunneling claws).
Anyway, originally I did not like this Tempest change because I thought it would upset all P match-ups. But, I am not sure anymore. With some tweaks, I think it could be an exciting change to Protoss and open up a lot of options in late game SC.
The problem is that you can have Tempests camping out from afar like Polar Night and just pick off key structures. Having Tempest pretty much means having Skytoss, and having Skytoss means you have a pretty much unbeatable army when it gets to that late in the game. All Zerg has are Fungals, and Fungals can't reach Tempests that are pew pewing far away. Corruptors and Mutalisks, well they gotta respect the Void Rays and Phoenix which pretty much hard counter them. Same goes for Terran and its air units.
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EPT
