We’ve just published a new Balance Test Map to the StarCraft II Custom Games list titled "Frost LE (2.1.0 Balance v1.0)" in order to test a few balance tweaks across all three races in Heart of the Swarm multiplayer. During this testing phase, please keep in mind that none of the changes listed below are final. Our plan is to first explore how each change impacts the game and potentially test additional changes after reviewing your feedback. Let's have a look at what you'll be testing:
Protoss
Mothership Core
Photon Overcharge duration decreased from 60 to 50 seconds.
Time Warp energy cost increased from 75 to 100.
Tempest
Resonance Coil ground weapon damage increased from 30 to 30 + 30 vs. Structures.
Terran
Ghost
Starting energy increased from 50 to 75.
The Moebius Reactor upgrade has been removed from the Ghost Academy.
Zerg
Hydralisk
Cost decreased from 100/50 to 100/25.
New Balance Testing Extension Mod
We’ve also created a new Extension Mod for balance testing so that you can try your hand with these changes on maps other than Frost LE. Those of you who are interested in trying out the Extension Mod can use the following steps to get a game started:
You can start a game with the balance testing Extension Mod using the following steps:
Navigate to Browse Maps on the Custom Games menu,
Select a map and click the Create with Mod button in the lower right corner,
Choose to sort by Blizzard Mods from the dropdown list at the top of the screen.
Select the “Balance Test Mod” Extension from the list and then hit Create Game.
If you're interested in the StarCraft II Balance Team's reasoning behind each change, you can check out David Kim's recent forum post.
We’d like to acknowledge that in the days following David Kim’s forum post, we’ve received lots of feedback on the proposed changes, some positive, some negative. However, we’d like to avoid dropping or altering any of them before we’ve had the chance to see how they play out during testing. With this in mind, we’d like to remind you that feedback based on playtesting is the most helpful information you can share with us at this time. We kindly ask that you spend some time playing games on the test map before offering your thoughts on the changes listed above.
As always, thank you for your continued feedback and support. We’d like to restate that none of the changes listed above are final. Once you feel you’ve had enough time to test thoroughly, we welcome you to join us in this discussion thread.
Poll: Impressions on MsC Photon Overcharge time decrease?
Approve (249)
76%
Disapprove (63)
19%
Neutral (17)
5%
329 total votes
Your vote: Impressions on MsC Photon Overcharge time decrease?
The most WEIRDEST from design point change for Tempest. Why they can not make Tempest attacks vs massives share to buildings? With this patch Tempest will have FOUR (!!!) difference attack types:
- Versus non-massive air - versus air massive - Versus buildings - versus ground
Hydralisk change is stupid, apart from that i don't have too much problem with the rest of the changes they're testing. Although, i still think they ain't targeting the right things with the mothership core nerfs. Especially the photon overcharge nerf, which only really has a significant effect on PvP.
Sad change. Was hoping that they would reconsider every change without even putting them in test. Hydra won't go throught, Tempest change is just stupid and other changes doesn't really solve the real problems. Hopefully they listen to community and try to do some real changes.
On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote: I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
On February 01 2014 10:22 Existor wrote: The most WEIRDEST from design point change for Tempest. Why they can not make Tempest attacks vs massives share to buildings? With this patch Tempest will have FOUR (!!!) difference attack types:
- Versus non-massive air - versus air massive - Versus buildings - versus ground
carriers with bonus damage to buildings would be evil, as they already have no mercy with those. But giving Tempest bonus damage to buildings actually is a way to deal with the static defense of Swarmhost play, and this way weakening it. Atleast if you don't want to use carriers who are way better against it.
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Blizzard said they want mech to be viable.
The Ghost change will not make mech viable.
Avilo is throwing out suggestions on how to make mech viable.
buffing tempest to stop swarm host turtle, so zerg will have 0 lategame vs protoss then, they never fix the actual problem just bandaid it. The hydra does nothing to address problems in pvz and is a retarded change.
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
All-Ins and Mech are the problem areas of this game. The patch ought focus on those, not the parts that are working.
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Blizzard said they want mech to be viable.
The Ghost change will not make mech viable.
Avilo is throwing out suggestions on how to make mech viable.
Problem?
So you have to revert the oracle speed, remove MSC vision range, revert the Dark Shrine cost and remove the ebay requirements for turrets to make mech viable in tvp?
I think his 5th and 6th point are solid suggestions, but the rest is just Avilo wanting to play mech every game, on every map without having to worry about anything.
On February 01 2014 11:17 CannonsNCarriers wrote: All-Ins and Mech are the problem areas of this game. The patch ought focus on those, not the parts that are working.
I think blink allin and mech are two specific problems of 1 match up and not the only problem areas of the game. Mech is plenty strong in TvZ and there are even bigger problems like Swarmhosts etc. in the game.
On February 01 2014 10:37 Die4Ever wrote: Ok I wanna see some sick tempest rushes now lol. I still think they should've given bonus damage vs buildings to carriers instead of tempests.
That might actually be plausible. Seen something like this happen to MMA recently I think by some player named Has, if I'm not mistaken. It was TLOwnged dude. I think MMA opened reactor rax into fast starport. At this point I'm willing to just give up on ever winning a standard TvP again so long as I don't have to sit through an hour long protoss deathball vs the great wall of zerg static defense.
But the hydra change will straight up just break the fucking game. I'm not sure in what world that isn't the most obvious thing ever.
Hydralisks are pretty bad, but why not buff their anti-air attack or something? 25 gas Hydras will bring about some absurdly powerful timings. Maybe it's the drastic change this game needs, but it will probably just be broken.
The Tempest change is so strange I don't think anyone really knows what effect(s) it will have; honestly I'd rather they just scrap the idea. Mothership Core nerfs are good, but I'd still like to see a nerf to the vision range as many others have said.
The Ghost change is a pretty big deal. The time it takes from when you drop the Ghost Academy to when the Ghosts are actually useful is so long that a lot of Terrans hold off on making them and sometimes don't make them at all. Any help Terrans can get vs late game Protoss I'm happy with.
Overall, pretty weird stuff. They seem to understand what's wrong to some extent, but the solutions they've come up with make very little sense to me. These are certainly not changes the community has been talking about, but we'll see.
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Blizzard said they want mech to be viable.
The Ghost change will not make mech viable.
Avilo is throwing out suggestions on how to make mech viable.
Problem?
So you have to revert the oracle speed, remove MSC vision range, revert the Dark Shrine cost and remove the ebay requirements for turrets to make mech viable in tvp?
I think his 5th and 6th point are solid suggestions, but the rest is just Avilo wanting to play mech every game, on every map without having to worry about anything.
Don't comment if you have no idea about the game...or do not understand the suggestions i made.
The MSC changes i put there have absolutely nothing to do with mech. The imbalance in TvP right now are early game all-ins and too many openings from Protoss while also having the MSC overcharge/timewarp being way too good.
The sight range change i put there helps to allow Terran players to hide information just as much as the Protoss currently can. It means Protoss cannot play as greedy as they want anymore, and there are possibilities that Terran can open with tech builds involving hellions/banshees again because Protoss won't have 100% information like they currently do.
Terrans cannot reasonably wall off vs Protoss right now solely because of the MSC allowing high ground vision with no risk. Removing/reducing sight range means Terrans can now wall off again - it changes the entire match-up if a Terran can now wall off their base instead of having the risk of 2 supply depots killed for free every game.
The turrets once again have nothing to do with mech, where are you getting this? Did you just read my username and then your brain thought "mech" with no critical thinking or analysis skills? I even explained what removing the ebay pre-req does - it allows Terrans a more reasonable defense when they scout a proxied stargate making oracles, or if they scout blink. Instead of just having a build order loss, you now would not auto lose the game.
The only two mech suggestions i made were about reducing armory price to brood war price of 100/50 which cuts exactly the same cost as the poorly thought out ghost mobius reactor change. And the +15 damage to shields to bring tanks back to 50 damage vs Protoss units.
None of my points were narrowminded in the slightest. They all are directed at the current imbalances that exist in TvP.
On February 01 2014 11:30 SidianTheBard wrote: If that hydra change goes through it's going to make ZvP timing attacks on Habitation Station even more difficult for the protoss. /cry
That's good though. Anything that can force Protoss to be less greedy in the mid game and actually have more than a handful of units that aren't sentries is a net positive for the stale, greedy meta they're currently playing.
How many people have complained about some of the changes like ghost energy change. if they can't think of an alternative, then at least just tells us about it and don't just go ahead with whatever bad idea that they have.
the hydra buff also needs some sort of change to compensate with the cost reduction, right now this is looking way too imbalanced
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Blizzard said they want mech to be viable.
The Ghost change will not make mech viable.
Avilo is throwing out suggestions on how to make mech viable.
Problem?
Who says Blizzard was intending for the Ghost change to make mech easier? I honestly think this change a response to Terrans not being able to counter attack into Protosses that have failed all-ins because they just go into Templar and sit with storm and get ahead.
On February 01 2014 11:30 SidianTheBard wrote: If that hydra change goes through it's going to make ZvP timing attacks on Habitation Station even more difficult for the protoss. /cry
That's good though. Anything that can force Protoss to be less greedy in the mid game and actually have more than a handful of units that aren't sentries is a net positive for the stale, greedy meta they're currently playing.
I agree in a sense, but with the Gold third, roach timings can already be extremely tough for Protoss to hold, but now if you throw in a bunch of hydras as well I feel there won't be much of a chance for them on that map.
We’ve also created a new Extension Mod for balance testing so that you can try your hand with these changes on maps other than Frost LE. Those of you who are interested in trying out the Extension Mod can use the following steps to get a game started:
You can start a game with the balance testing Extension Mod using the following steps: Navigate to Browse Maps on the Custom Games menu, Select a map and click the Create with Mod button in the lower right corner, Choose to sort by Blizzard Mods from the dropdown list at the top of the screen. Select the “Balance Test Mod” Extension from the list and then hit Create Game.
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Blizzard said they want mech to be viable.
The Ghost change will not make mech viable.
Avilo is throwing out suggestions on how to make mech viable.
Problem?
So you have to revert the oracle speed, remove MSC vision range, revert the Dark Shrine cost and remove the ebay requirements for turrets to make mech viable in tvp?
I think his 5th and 6th point are solid suggestions, but the rest is just Avilo wanting to play mech every game, on every map without having to worry about anything.
Don't comment if you have no idea about the game...or do not understand the suggestions i made.
The MSC changes i put there have absolutely nothing to do with mech. The imbalance in TvP right now are early game all-ins and too many openings from Protoss while also having the MSC overcharge/timewarp being way too good.
The sight range change i put there helps to allow Terran players to hide information just as much as the Protoss currently can. It means Protoss cannot play as greedy as they want anymore, and there are possibilities that Terran can open with tech builds involving hellions/banshees again because Protoss won't have 100% information like they currently do.
Terrans cannot reasonably wall off vs Protoss right now solely because of the MSC allowing high ground vision with no risk. Removing/reducing sight range means Terrans can now wall off again - it changes the entire match-up if a Terran can now wall off their base instead of having the risk of 2 supply depots killed for free every game.
The turrets once again have nothing to do with mech, where are you getting this? Did you just read my username and then your brain thought "mech" with no critical thinking or analysis skills? I even explained what removing the ebay pre-req does - it allows Terrans a more reasonable defense when they scout a proxied stargate making oracles, or if they scout blink. Instead of just having a build order loss, you now would not auto lose the game.
The only two mech suggestions i made were about reducing armory price to brood war price of 100/50 which cuts exactly the same cost as the poorly thought out ghost mobius reactor change. And the +15 damage to shields to bring tanks back to 50 damage vs Protoss units.
None of my points were narrowminded in the slightest. They all are directed at the current imbalances that exist in TvP.
I agree with reducing the sight range of the MSC, for all the points you listed. But when you primarily suggest "removing the sight range" I had to laugh. You also threw in the the Dark Shrine cost randomly. To me it just seems as if you just don't want to scout the map or the base several times. Zergs have to scout the whole map for proxy pylons every single game and keep checking with overlords. Also how often do you actually see an oracle do game ending damage in pro games. Sometimes sure, but not even often enough that I can remember the last game right now.
As I said, I agree with some points, but if you implemented everything, the opening phase would just be boring and terran way too safe. For example reducing the oracle speed and removing the ebay requirement for turrets, will outright kill oracle openings. One or the other maybe, but even that can be argued.
Edit: I apologize for wrongly implying that all your points were about mech.
For everyone throwing tons of more drastic changes on the wall, try to keep in mind that if there's one thing that HotS has shown us is that even minor nerfs/buffs can have drastic effects on balance when combined with shifts in the meta. Recall early in HotS when Protoss seemed very weak and were getting crushed by mutas, swarm hosts, Terran drop play, etc. The warp prism buff seemed minor and many people (including top level casters) thought it was a minor change that wouldn't really help, but combined with shifts to more harass-based play, Protoss regained a lot of power. The way to go is to make small targeted changes and see what happens. This is why avilo's posts where he wants multiple buffs to Terran at the same time as multiple nerfs to Protoss seem like severe overkill to me.
These seem like decent balance changes for the most part, except the hydralisks. I don't know how to explain this change at all, since hydras are already a very popular unit in all matches except ZvT, except that there's someone at Blizzard who has a free pass to make random major buffs to Zerg once a year.
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Blizzard said they want mech to be viable.
The Ghost change will not make mech viable.
Avilo is throwing out suggestions on how to make mech viable.
Problem?
So you have to revert the oracle speed, remove MSC vision range, revert the Dark Shrine cost and remove the ebay requirements for turrets to make mech viable in tvp?
I think his 5th and 6th point are solid suggestions, but the rest is just Avilo wanting to play mech every game, on every map without having to worry about anything.
Don't comment if you have no idea about the game...or do not understand the suggestions i made.
The MSC changes i put there have absolutely nothing to do with mech. The imbalance in TvP right now are early game all-ins and too many openings from Protoss while also having the MSC overcharge/timewarp being way too good.
The sight range change i put there helps to allow Terran players to hide information just as much as the Protoss currently can. It means Protoss cannot play as greedy as they want anymore, and there are possibilities that Terran can open with tech builds involving hellions/banshees again because Protoss won't have 100% information like they currently do.
Terrans cannot reasonably wall off vs Protoss right now solely because of the MSC allowing high ground vision with no risk. Removing/reducing sight range means Terrans can now wall off again - it changes the entire match-up if a Terran can now wall off their base instead of having the risk of 2 supply depots killed for free every game.
The turrets once again have nothing to do with mech, where are you getting this? Did you just read my username and then your brain thought "mech" with no critical thinking or analysis skills? I even explained what removing the ebay pre-req does - it allows Terrans a more reasonable defense when they scout a proxied stargate making oracles, or if they scout blink. Instead of just having a build order loss, you now would not auto lose the game.
The only two mech suggestions i made were about reducing armory price to brood war price of 100/50 which cuts exactly the same cost as the poorly thought out ghost mobius reactor change. And the +15 damage to shields to bring tanks back to 50 damage vs Protoss units.
None of my points were narrowminded in the slightest. They all are directed at the current imbalances that exist in TvP.
They should just revert the needless oracle buff and if they want to keep the MSC vision range then perhaps make sensor tower available w/o ebay.
no to hydralisks, no to hydralisks, no to hydralisks. It would completely destroy meching TvZ with hydra busts (would wreck any banshee openers and most macro mech games in general
On February 01 2014 11:41 Yakikorosu wrote: For everyone throwing tons of more drastic changes on the wall, try to keep in mind that if there's one thing that HotS has shown us is that even minor nerfs/buffs can have drastic effects on balance when combined with shifts in the meta. Recall early in HotS when Protoss seemed very weak and were getting crushed by mutas, swarm hosts, Terran drop play, etc. The warp prism buff seemed minor and many people (including top level casters) thought it was a minor change that wouldn't really help, but combined with shifts to more harass-based play, Protoss regained a lot of power. The way to go is to make small targeted changes and see what happens. This is why avilo's posts where he wants multiple buffs to Terran at the same time as multiple nerfs to Protoss seem like severe overkill to me.
These seem like decent balance changes for the most part, except the hydralisks. I don't know how to explain this change at all, since hydras are already a very popular unit in all matches except ZvT, except that there's someone at Blizzard who has a free pass to make random major buffs to Zerg once a year.
Yeah, narrow changes can have drastic effects. In my opinion the best change Blizzard made in HotS so far was increasing the Overseer speed with the upgrade. It made zvt way better.
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Blizzard said they want mech to be viable.
The Ghost change will not make mech viable.
Avilo is throwing out suggestions on how to make mech viable.
Problem?
So you have to revert the oracle speed, remove MSC vision range, revert the Dark Shrine cost and remove the ebay requirements for turrets to make mech viable in tvp?
I think his 5th and 6th point are solid suggestions, but the rest is just Avilo wanting to play mech every game, on every map without having to worry about anything.
Don't comment if you have no idea about the game...or do not understand the suggestions i made.
The MSC changes i put there have absolutely nothing to do with mech. The imbalance in TvP right now are early game all-ins and too many openings from Protoss while also having the MSC overcharge/timewarp being way too good.
The sight range change i put there helps to allow Terran players to hide information just as much as the Protoss currently can. It means Protoss cannot play as greedy as they want anymore, and there are possibilities that Terran can open with tech builds involving hellions/banshees again because Protoss won't have 100% information like they currently do.
Terrans cannot reasonably wall off vs Protoss right now solely because of the MSC allowing high ground vision with no risk. Removing/reducing sight range means Terrans can now wall off again - it changes the entire match-up if a Terran can now wall off their base instead of having the risk of 2 supply depots killed for free every game.
The turrets once again have nothing to do with mech, where are you getting this? Did you just read my username and then your brain thought "mech" with no critical thinking or analysis skills? I even explained what removing the ebay pre-req does - it allows Terrans a more reasonable defense when they scout a proxied stargate making oracles, or if they scout blink. Instead of just having a build order loss, you now would not auto lose the game.
The only two mech suggestions i made were about reducing armory price to brood war price of 100/50 which cuts exactly the same cost as the poorly thought out ghost mobius reactor change. And the +15 damage to shields to bring tanks back to 50 damage vs Protoss units.
None of my points were narrowminded in the slightest. They all are directed at the current imbalances that exist in TvP.
I agree with reducing the sight range of the MSC, for all the points you listed. But when you primarily suggest "removing the sight range" I had to laugh. You also threw in the the Dark Shrine cost randomly. To me it just seems as if you just don't want to scout the map or the base several times. Zergs have to scout the whole map for proxy pylons every single game and keep checking with overlords. Also how often do you actually see an oracle do game ending damage in pro games. Sometimes sure, but not even often enough that I can remember the last game right now.
As I said, I agree with some points, but if you implemented everything, the opening phase would just be boring and terran way too safe. For example reducing the oracle speed and removing the ebay requirement for turrets, will outright kill oracle openings. One or the other maybe, but even that can be argued.
Edit: I apologize for wrongly implying that all your points were about mech.
The diversity of the opening build lowers to what... just the reaper because terran can't be out on the map like zerg after they get speed? Why is it the terran has to scout the whole map quivering with fear of the unknown when the toss has stalkers at the front preventing rines and scv scouts and a MSC core that means they don't have to scout half as diligently as you propose terran does?
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Blizzard said they want mech to be viable.
The Ghost change will not make mech viable.
Avilo is throwing out suggestions on how to make mech viable.
Problem?
Who says Blizzard was intending for the Ghost change to make mech easier? I honestly think this change a response to Terrans not being able to counter attack into Protosses that have failed all-ins because they just go into Templar and sit with storm and get ahead.
Blizz themself said it. and it wont work because the problem of mech are not the ghosts -.-
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Blizzard said they want mech to be viable.
The Ghost change will not make mech viable.
Avilo is throwing out suggestions on how to make mech viable.
Problem?
Who says Blizzard was intending for the Ghost change to make mech easier? I honestly think this change a response to Terrans not being able to counter attack into Protosses that have failed all-ins because they just go into Templar and sit with storm and get ahead.
Blizzard initially said that when they were explaining their proposed changes that it was to help with mech. Go check the start of the other thread.
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Blizzard said they want mech to be viable.
The Ghost change will not make mech viable.
Avilo is throwing out suggestions on how to make mech viable.
Problem?
So you have to revert the oracle speed, remove MSC vision range, revert the Dark Shrine cost and remove the ebay requirements for turrets to make mech viable in tvp?
I think his 5th and 6th point are solid suggestions, but the rest is just Avilo wanting to play mech every game, on every map without having to worry about anything.
Don't comment if you have no idea about the game...or do not understand the suggestions i made.
The MSC changes i put there have absolutely nothing to do with mech. The imbalance in TvP right now are early game all-ins and too many openings from Protoss while also having the MSC overcharge/timewarp being way too good.
The sight range change i put there helps to allow Terran players to hide information just as much as the Protoss currently can. It means Protoss cannot play as greedy as they want anymore, and there are possibilities that Terran can open with tech builds involving hellions/banshees again because Protoss won't have 100% information like they currently do.
Terrans cannot reasonably wall off vs Protoss right now solely because of the MSC allowing high ground vision with no risk. Removing/reducing sight range means Terrans can now wall off again - it changes the entire match-up if a Terran can now wall off their base instead of having the risk of 2 supply depots killed for free every game.
The turrets once again have nothing to do with mech, where are you getting this? Did you just read my username and then your brain thought "mech" with no critical thinking or analysis skills? I even explained what removing the ebay pre-req does - it allows Terrans a more reasonable defense when they scout a proxied stargate making oracles, or if they scout blink. Instead of just having a build order loss, you now would not auto lose the game.
The only two mech suggestions i made were about reducing armory price to brood war price of 100/50 which cuts exactly the same cost as the poorly thought out ghost mobius reactor change. And the +15 damage to shields to bring tanks back to 50 damage vs Protoss units.
None of my points were narrowminded in the slightest. They all are directed at the current imbalances that exist in TvP.
I agree with reducing the sight range of the MSC, for all the points you listed. But when you primarily suggest "removing the sight range" I had to laugh. You also threw in the the Dark Shrine cost randomly. To me it just seems as if you just don't want to scout the map or the base several times. Zergs have to scout the whole map for proxy pylons every single game and keep checking with overlords. Also how often do you actually see an oracle do game ending damage in pro games. Sometimes sure, but not even often enough that I can remember the last game right now.
As I said, I agree with some points, but if you implemented everything, the opening phase would just be boring and terran way too safe. For example reducing the oracle speed and removing the ebay requirement for turrets, will outright kill oracle openings. One or the other maybe, but even that can be argued.
Edit: I apologize for wrongly implying that all your points were about mech.
The diversity of the opening build lowers to what... just the reaper because terran can't be out on the map like zerg after they get speed? Why is it the terran has to scout the whole map quivering with fear of the unknown when the toss has stalkers at the front preventing rines and scv scouts and a MSC core that means they don't have to scout half as diligently as you propose terran does?
Well that's another topic. It's true that Protoss players don't have to scout as actively as zerg or terran, because they just can't proxy as well as Protoss can. You can argue if that's good or bad, but starcraft is balanced this way, races are different. Protoss therefore has (or should have) other weaknesses.
MSC nerf is fine but I doubt it will do too much. Time warp nerf is fine but the duration change from 60 to 50 seconds doesn;t seem to matter much. If anything PvP will just be more 1 basing and TvP will still have a stale early game. I think a range nerf or slight damage nerf would be better but these changes seem fine.
Tempest buff is fantastic. It will hardly matter much in most games but it gives an answer to camp situations with mass spores/spines or PFs. it's basically a nerf to the superboring swarm host while sitting behind a wall tactic as you can now whittle away at that somewhat effectively. Maybe some other tempest tactics pop up like sniping buildings but that is cool.
Ghost buff this way I don;t exactly get, transitioning into them wasn't particulary hard. This only reinforces the 'kill them early or die in the long game' plan of T vs P imo. I had rather seem them just buff the unit stats a little but keep the upgrade.
Hydra change seems insane right now, in WoL this change would have made sense but now it's just way too much of a buff. Halving their gast cost makes hydra timings too strong really, you can do insane hydra timings on just a few gasses that will just cripple PvZ.
I guess I'm not really good enough to chime in, but I love hydra/ling in ZvP and if this goes through I can't wait to abuse this lol. Seems like it's unnecessary? But what do I know..
On February 01 2014 11:58 Markwerf wrote: Hydra change seems insane right now, in WoL this change would have made sense but now it's just way too much of a buff. Halving their gast cost makes hydra timings too strong really, you can do insane hydra timings on just a few gasses that will just cripple PvZ.
I think the tech (muta) switches and upgrades behind it will be even scarier than the actual timing, since you won't really have that much more larva and minerals to just double the number of hydras or something.
But actually we shouldn't even (still) discuss the changes as they are the same as before, let's play the map and give feedback .
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Blizzard said they want mech to be viable.
The Ghost change will not make mech viable.
Avilo is throwing out suggestions on how to make mech viable.
Problem?
Who says Blizzard was intending for the Ghost change to make mech easier? I honestly think this change a response to Terrans not being able to counter attack into Protosses that have failed all-ins because they just go into Templar and sit with storm and get ahead.
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Blizzard said they want mech to be viable.
The Ghost change will not make mech viable.
Avilo is throwing out suggestions on how to make mech viable.
Problem?
So you have to revert the oracle speed, remove MSC vision range, revert the Dark Shrine cost and remove the ebay requirements for turrets to make mech viable in tvp?
I think his 5th and 6th point are solid suggestions, but the rest is just Avilo wanting to play mech every game, on every map without having to worry about anything.
Don't comment if you have no idea about the game...or do not understand the suggestions i made.
The MSC changes i put there have absolutely nothing to do with mech. The imbalance in TvP right now are early game all-ins and too many openings from Protoss while also having the MSC overcharge/timewarp being way too good.
The sight range change i put there helps to allow Terran players to hide information just as much as the Protoss currently can. It means Protoss cannot play as greedy as they want anymore, and there are possibilities that Terran can open with tech builds involving hellions/banshees again because Protoss won't have 100% information like they currently do.
Terrans cannot reasonably wall off vs Protoss right now solely because of the MSC allowing high ground vision with no risk. Removing/reducing sight range means Terrans can now wall off again - it changes the entire match-up if a Terran can now wall off their base instead of having the risk of 2 supply depots killed for free every game.
The turrets once again have nothing to do with mech, where are you getting this? Did you just read my username and then your brain thought "mech" with no critical thinking or analysis skills? I even explained what removing the ebay pre-req does - it allows Terrans a more reasonable defense when they scout a proxied stargate making oracles, or if they scout blink. Instead of just having a build order loss, you now would not auto lose the game.
The only two mech suggestions i made were about reducing armory price to brood war price of 100/50 which cuts exactly the same cost as the poorly thought out ghost mobius reactor change. And the +15 damage to shields to bring tanks back to 50 damage vs Protoss units.
None of my points were narrowminded in the slightest. They all are directed at the current imbalances that exist in TvP.
Says the guy who plays one style on every map and still gets beat by mid-master players, yeah nobody knows the game but you! You're circular logic is hilarious.
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Blizzard said they want mech to be viable.
The Ghost change will not make mech viable.
Avilo is throwing out suggestions on how to make mech viable.
Problem?
So you have to revert the oracle speed, remove MSC vision range, revert the Dark Shrine cost and remove the ebay requirements for turrets to make mech viable in tvp?
I think his 5th and 6th point are solid suggestions, but the rest is just Avilo wanting to play mech every game, on every map without having to worry about anything.
Don't comment if you have no idea about the game...or do not understand the suggestions i made.
The MSC changes i put there have absolutely nothing to do with mech. The imbalance in TvP right now are early game all-ins and too many openings from Protoss while also having the MSC overcharge/timewarp being way too good.
The sight range change i put there helps to allow Terran players to hide information just as much as the Protoss currently can. It means Protoss cannot play as greedy as they want anymore, and there are possibilities that Terran can open with tech builds involving hellions/banshees again because Protoss won't have 100% information like they currently do.
Terrans cannot reasonably wall off vs Protoss right now solely because of the MSC allowing high ground vision with no risk. Removing/reducing sight range means Terrans can now wall off again - it changes the entire match-up if a Terran can now wall off their base instead of having the risk of 2 supply depots killed for free every game.
The turrets once again have nothing to do with mech, where are you getting this? Did you just read my username and then your brain thought "mech" with no critical thinking or analysis skills? I even explained what removing the ebay pre-req does - it allows Terrans a more reasonable defense when they scout a proxied stargate making oracles, or if they scout blink. Instead of just having a build order loss, you now would not auto lose the game.
The only two mech suggestions i made were about reducing armory price to brood war price of 100/50 which cuts exactly the same cost as the poorly thought out ghost mobius reactor change. And the +15 damage to shields to bring tanks back to 50 damage vs Protoss units.
None of my points were narrowminded in the slightest. They all are directed at the current imbalances that exist in TvP.
I agree with reducing the sight range of the MSC, for all the points you listed. But when you primarily suggest "removing the sight range" I had to laugh. You also threw in the the Dark Shrine cost randomly. To me it just seems as if you just don't want to scout the map or the base several times. Zergs have to scout the whole map for proxy pylons every single game and keep checking with overlords. Also how often do you actually see an oracle do game ending damage in pro games. Sometimes sure, but not even often enough that I can remember the last game right now.
As I said, I agree with some points, but if you implemented everything, the opening phase would just be boring and terran way too safe. For example reducing the oracle speed and removing the ebay requirement for turrets, will outright kill oracle openings. One or the other maybe, but even that can be argued.
Edit: I apologize for wrongly implying that all your points were about mech.
The diversity of the opening build lowers to what... just the reaper because terran can't be out on the map like zerg after they get speed? Why is it the terran has to scout the whole map quivering with fear of the unknown when the toss has stalkers at the front preventing rines and scv scouts and a MSC core that means they don't have to scout half as diligently as you propose terran does?
Well that's another topic. It's true that Protoss players don't have to scout as actively as zerg or terran, because they just can't proxy as well as Protoss can. You can argue if that's good or bad, but starcraft is balanced this way, races are different. Protoss therefore has (or should have) other weaknesses.
Zerg is designed with speed, their creep spread, overlords, as built in ways to figure out shit the toss is doing. They're designed to be the reactive race and they're designed optimally for it. Terran just isn't unless they go reaper. This I believe is the basic problem with the match up isn't the strength of toss units as much as uit is fear of the unknown. Sometimes I'll scout the all in correctly, and early enough to counter it but then the toss knowing that his gigs up just decides to be a switch hitter. Oh, I'm gonna PRETEND to go through with this blink all in but as a terran how do you if he continually is following through with the attack and not just playing greedy as hell behind it? By the time I salvage my bunkers and push out knowing I can't be overrun I'm so far behind economically what, I have to all in now? That's my reward for scouting and reacting properly? I don't understand what the fuck blizzard wants me to do? And at my level my mirco can make it happen but the hell are the GM's supposed to do but die is what I'm wondering.
Blizzard dont need to balance this for my platinum ass but if they want this to be a spectator esport they better figure some shit out cause top tier terrans are running outta ideas. Didya see WCS NA challenger league? Did you sense the desperation of the root showdown astrea vs illusion? Two similarly skilled players and the shit shit the terran had to resort to... its getting nuts. Am I supposed to be continually making reapers and hope the toss lets me scout a million times to make sure I know what's up? You tell me. The APM requirements, designating a rax and gas to make repears if the first one dies when I should be making rauders and getting stim out? Spamming random scans to get even further behind economically?
On February 01 2014 12:19 pmp10 wrote: So they disregarded all feedback after those change were proposed? This may end up being a bait-and-switch patch.
what does this post even mean? they're publishing a test map for the changes they said they wanted to test. i swear you people look for any and every excuse to micro-criticize every single action taken by blizzard
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Blizzard said they want mech to be viable.
The Ghost change will not make mech viable.
Avilo is throwing out suggestions on how to make mech viable.
Problem?
So you have to revert the oracle speed, remove MSC vision range, revert the Dark Shrine cost and remove the ebay requirements for turrets to make mech viable in tvp?
I think his 5th and 6th point are solid suggestions, but the rest is just Avilo wanting to play mech every game, on every map without having to worry about anything.
Don't comment if you have no idea about the game...or do not understand the suggestions i made.
The MSC changes i put there have absolutely nothing to do with mech. The imbalance in TvP right now are early game all-ins and too many openings from Protoss while also having the MSC overcharge/timewarp being way too good.
The sight range change i put there helps to allow Terran players to hide information just as much as the Protoss currently can. It means Protoss cannot play as greedy as they want anymore, and there are possibilities that Terran can open with tech builds involving hellions/banshees again because Protoss won't have 100% information like they currently do.
Terrans cannot reasonably wall off vs Protoss right now solely because of the MSC allowing high ground vision with no risk. Removing/reducing sight range means Terrans can now wall off again - it changes the entire match-up if a Terran can now wall off their base instead of having the risk of 2 supply depots killed for free every game.
The turrets once again have nothing to do with mech, where are you getting this? Did you just read my username and then your brain thought "mech" with no critical thinking or analysis skills? I even explained what removing the ebay pre-req does - it allows Terrans a more reasonable defense when they scout a proxied stargate making oracles, or if they scout blink. Instead of just having a build order loss, you now would not auto lose the game.
The only two mech suggestions i made were about reducing armory price to brood war price of 100/50 which cuts exactly the same cost as the poorly thought out ghost mobius reactor change. And the +15 damage to shields to bring tanks back to 50 damage vs Protoss units.
None of my points were narrowminded in the slightest. They all are directed at the current imbalances that exist in TvP.
I agree with reducing the sight range of the MSC, for all the points you listed. But when you primarily suggest "removing the sight range" I had to laugh. You also threw in the the Dark Shrine cost randomly. To me it just seems as if you just don't want to scout the map or the base several times. Zergs have to scout the whole map for proxy pylons every single game and keep checking with overlords. Also how often do you actually see an oracle do game ending damage in pro games. Sometimes sure, but not even often enough that I can remember the last game right now.
As I said, I agree with some points, but if you implemented everything, the opening phase would just be boring and terran way too safe. For example reducing the oracle speed and removing the ebay requirement for turrets, will outright kill oracle openings. One or the other maybe, but even that can be argued.
Edit: I apologize for wrongly implying that all your points were about mech.
The diversity of the opening build lowers to what... just the reaper because terran can't be out on the map like zerg after they get speed? Why is it the terran has to scout the whole map quivering with fear of the unknown when the toss has stalkers at the front preventing rines and scv scouts and a MSC core that means they don't have to scout half as diligently as you propose terran does?
Well that's another topic. It's true that Protoss players don't have to scout as actively as zerg or terran, because they just can't proxy as well as Protoss can. You can argue if that's good or bad, but starcraft is balanced this way, races are different. Protoss therefore has (or should have) other weaknesses.
Zerg is designed with speed, their creep spread, overlords, as built in ways to figure out shit the toss is doing. They're designed to be the reactive race and they're designed optimally for it. Terran just isn't unless they go reaper. This I believe is the basic problem with the match up isn't the strength of toss units as much as uit is fear of the unknown. Sometimes I'll scout the all in correctly, and early enough to counter it but then the toss knowing that his gigs up just decides to be a switch hitter. Oh, I'm gonna PRETEND to go through with this blink all in but as a terran how do you if he continually is following through with the attack and not just playing greedy as hell behind it? By the time I salvage my bunkers and push out knowing I can't be overrun I'm so far behind economically what, I have to all in now? That's my reward for scouting and reacting properly? I don't understand what the fuck blizzard wants me to do? And at my level my mirco can make it happen but the hell are the GM's supposed to do but die is what I'm wondering.
Blizzard dont need to balance this for my platinum ass but if they want this to be a spectator esport they better figure some shit out cause top tier terrans are running outta ideas. Didya see WCS NA challenger league? Did you sense the desperation of the root showdown astrea vs illusion? Two similarly skilled players and the shit shit the terran had to resort to... its getting nuts. Am I supposed to be continually making reapers and hope the toss lets me scout a million times to make sure I know what's up? You tell me. The APM requirements, designating a rax and gas to make repears if the first one dies when I should be making rauders and getting stim out? Spamming random scans to get even further behind economically?
I feel your frustration, but really can't answer all this. But I feel rather than cutting down the protoss options by reducing oracle speed, instant turrets, expensive dt shrine etc., Blizzard should give terran more options.
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Blizzard said they want mech to be viable.
The Ghost change will not make mech viable.
Avilo is throwing out suggestions on how to make mech viable.
Problem?
So you have to revert the oracle speed, remove MSC vision range, revert the Dark Shrine cost and remove the ebay requirements for turrets to make mech viable in tvp?
I think his 5th and 6th point are solid suggestions, but the rest is just Avilo wanting to play mech every game, on every map without having to worry about anything.
1. That's not narrow minded, that's bad suggestions, there's a difference. Blizzard should be narrow-mindedly looking for ways to make mech viable, because they keep paying lip service to doing it.
2. The rest is Avilo thinking Protoss has a ridiculous amount of zero-to-low-risk openings available to them, which constrict Terran openings simply by existing. You think tanks with +15 damage to shields will be able to hold a Blink Stalker macro all in, when Blink Stalkers can get right up in Tanks' grills and the MSC laughs from 14 air range away? Or is the Terran supposed to smoothly transition into mech after getting 3 Rax, Stim, Combat Shields and Bunkers just in case?
On February 01 2014 12:19 pmp10 wrote: So they disregarded all feedback after those change were proposed? This may end up being a bait-and-switch patch.
what does this post even mean? they're publishing a test map for the changes they said they wanted to test. i swear you people look for any and every excuse to micro-criticize every single action taken by blizzard
Well here's the problem. Blizzard releases patch notes which everyone can tell will have adverse effects. People explain that adverse effects will happen, root of problem will not be fixed. Blizzard goes through with test patch anyway. We play it out, they see that we were right. Y'know, like the time they traded a tiny buff to the tank for a huge nerf to the WM.
UH OH. What do Blizzard do now? Well, in that case, they scaled back the nerf, but they weren't able to test out the new version of the change and see if they scaled it back far enough (they hadn't).
So what happens here? We test out the MSC changes, they do nothing to fix the core issues in PvT, and then... what? We have to wait another 4 months for another patch?
On February 01 2014 11:58 Markwerf wrote: Hydra change seems insane right now, in WoL this change would have made sense but now it's just way too much of a buff. Halving their gast cost makes hydra timings too strong really, you can do insane hydra timings on just a few gasses that will just cripple PvZ.
I think the tech (muta) switches and upgrades behind it will be even scarier than the actual timing, since you won't really have that much more larva and minerals to just double the number of hydras or something.
But actually we shouldn't even (still) discuss the changes as they are the same as before, let's play the map and give feedback .
I just tested this. I went for 3 hatch roach max. At 12 mins I was only at about 140 supply going for usual tech behind it only because I was floating 800 gas with 0 minerals. Cutting 5+6 gasses might save about 250 minerals in the interim but that amounts to nothing in terms of army supply, just less gas floating. At least this way, hive and infestor transitions..or even muta ones will be more powerful, but the Hydras themselves won't come out in a much bigger number. 100 minerals each keeps their count pretty low. Adversly, that also makes a Zerg who can't get a 3rd due to some early protoss allin a bit better off with Hydralisks but swarmhost turtle in to later 3rd is what most players like Destiny/Catz etc do when behind.
On February 01 2014 11:58 Markwerf wrote: Hydra change seems insane right now, in WoL this change would have made sense but now it's just way too much of a buff. Halving their gast cost makes hydra timings too strong really, you can do insane hydra timings on just a few gasses that will just cripple PvZ.
I think the tech (muta) switches and upgrades behind it will be even scarier than the actual timing, since you won't really have that much more larva and minerals to just double the number of hydras or something.
But actually we shouldn't even (still) discuss the changes as they are the same as before, let's play the map and give feedback .
I just tested this. I went for 3 hatch roach max. At 12 mins I was only at about 140 supply going for usual tech behind it only because I was floating 800 gas with 0 minerals. Cutting 5+6 gasses might save about 250 minerals in the interim but that amounts to nothing in terms of army supply, just less gas floating. At least this way, hive and infestor transitions..or even muta ones will be more powerful, but the Hydras themselves won't come out in a much bigger number. 100 minerals each keeps their count pretty low. Adversly, that also makes a Zerg who can't get a 3rd due to some early protoss allin a bit better off with Hydralisks but swarmhost turtle in to later 3rd is what most players like Destiny/Catz etc do when behind.
Yeah I also just played a game and my hdra numbers weren't through the roof, the muta switch on the other side.... Even triple evo and ling/baneling/hydra with all upgrades seemed to work well, looked pretty sick to be honest. I think it would open up almost unstoppable timings, you could even add vipers if the tank count is too high. My opponent playing bio had zero chance.
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Blizzard said they want mech to be viable.
The Ghost change will not make mech viable.
Avilo is throwing out suggestions on how to make mech viable.
Problem?
So you have to revert the oracle speed, remove MSC vision range, revert the Dark Shrine cost and remove the ebay requirements for turrets to make mech viable in tvp?
I think his 5th and 6th point are solid suggestions, but the rest is just Avilo wanting to play mech every game, on every map without having to worry about anything.
Don't comment if you have no idea about the game...or do not understand the suggestions i made.
The MSC changes i put there have absolutely nothing to do with mech. The imbalance in TvP right now are early game all-ins and too many openings from Protoss while also having the MSC overcharge/timewarp being way too good.
The sight range change i put there helps to allow Terran players to hide information just as much as the Protoss currently can. It means Protoss cannot play as greedy as they want anymore, and there are possibilities that Terran can open with tech builds involving hellions/banshees again because Protoss won't have 100% information like they currently do.
Terrans cannot reasonably wall off vs Protoss right now solely because of the MSC allowing high ground vision with no risk. Removing/reducing sight range means Terrans can now wall off again - it changes the entire match-up if a Terran can now wall off their base instead of having the risk of 2 supply depots killed for free every game.
The turrets once again have nothing to do with mech, where are you getting this? Did you just read my username and then your brain thought "mech" with no critical thinking or analysis skills? I even explained what removing the ebay pre-req does - it allows Terrans a more reasonable defense when they scout a proxied stargate making oracles, or if they scout blink. Instead of just having a build order loss, you now would not auto lose the game.
The only two mech suggestions i made were about reducing armory price to brood war price of 100/50 which cuts exactly the same cost as the poorly thought out ghost mobius reactor change. And the +15 damage to shields to bring tanks back to 50 damage vs Protoss units.
None of my points were narrowminded in the slightest. They all are directed at the current imbalances that exist in TvP.
Says the guy who plays one style on every map and still gets beat by mid-master players, yeah nobody knows the game but you! You're circular logic is hilarious.
Easy buddy. And I'm guessing you don't watch his stream - he does not mech every game; instead, you're just boarding the bash Avilo train b/c he is one of the few outspoken GM's about balance. And that says a lot since he is still mid GM with a 60% TvZ; 70% TvT; and 40% PvT. Does that tell you anything? I've played this game since BW and one of his most valid points is about the armory cost; Terran will always be at an upgrade deficit if they go Mech versus Protoss.
On February 01 2014 12:19 pmp10 wrote: So they disregarded all feedback after those change were proposed? This may end up being a bait-and-switch patch.
what does this post even mean? they're publishing a test map for the changes they said they wanted to test. i swear you people look for any and every excuse to micro-criticize every single action taken by blizzard
It means that Blizzard is concerning itself with whine management rather than game balancing. It's that or they chose to ignore the very feedback they asked for in their previous announcement.
Really disapointed with these balanced changed honestly. I mean everything looks good except for hydralisk and tempest which just look insane. I mean it's one thing to suggest the changed but in the past when they been insane they usually scaled it down for the balance patch.. seeing something like a 40 gas hydra maybe instead but this make me really fear it will get added to the game. Hydras aint weak by any means.. they're used in all 3 matchups and is even somewhat of a core unit in zvp.
And the tempest buff.. I mean maybe it will help against the swarmhost play and I really want that to be gone just as much as i want mech to be gone but the sideeffects this will have is with tempest rushes. Even tempest rushes is a threat to terran with them having to invest in early turrets in case of oracle. As for zerg we're not struggling as much but it's still an opening that occasionally see play (Scarlett vs sOs at redbull would be a great example of this) especially on maps like habitation station were tempest are really strong. And now i can see how they just snipe my buildings. And while the swarmhost style is superboring I think protoss is finding ways to deal with it and while a lot of people use swarmhosts it mainly seem to be foreign zergs that do this ultra turtly mass spore version.
I'm fine with the notion of reducing the cost of the Hydralisk, but it'd be nice if there was a bit of hp nerf or a buff to Storm so they could be more easily fought off with Templar. Especially with Ghosts getting buffed as well.
TBh, I'm not even sure what this patch does. It does not help vs all in protoss play and it does not help with scouting information a Terran player would be able to get, if anything it makes the game even harder for Terran by dealing with another hydra buff. Like how does the ghost buff help random all in play from toss???
After playing a couple tvps i feel like the ghost change is very strong(im T) hit the standard 10 min medivac timing, activated 2 overcharges and and had 4 ghosts out around the 13 min mark( cut marauder production heavy marine) empd the charge lots and 2 ht GG. I feel like it will give terran a nice timing when toss opens with ht( which is the meta). However if it had been colossi I would have cut the medivacs at 4 and made vikings and the ghosts would still be very effective against the ground army. So I feel like this will make Terran win more in this match up.Terran may now have a better chance in the midgame vs ht openers and can make easier tech switches to combat protoss. I do fear toss allins will be more common. If this change goes through it will be very interesting to see in the hands of top koreans, since the pretty much set the meta.
So we're gonna see some nasty new hydra timings that could seriously fuck shit up in ZvP and maybe even ZvT, and PO is still going to make it more or less impossible to attack Protoss early, and tempests are going to hurt buildings more for no apparent reason.
The energy cost change for time warp is a legitimately good change but the others are pretty lame or ineffectual. I don't even like the removal of Moebius Reactor because it continues the trend of tech commitments being gutted to help solve other problems. No siege research, no Moebius, no evo chamber for spores, and now we hear talk about removing the ebay requirement for turrets to help with an oracle whose speed buff was never necessary and which there is no reason not to simply revert.
On February 01 2014 14:39 forsooth wrote: The energy cost change for time warp is a legitimately good change but the others are pretty lame or ineffectual. I don't even like the removal of Moebius Reactor because it continues the trend of tech commitments being gutted to help solve other problems. No siege research, no Moebius, no evo chamber for spores, and now we hear talk about removing the ebay requirement for turrets to help with an oracle whose speed buff was never necessary and which there is no reason not to simply revert.
I agree with your criticism of the ongoing removal of tech. It's crude, unimaginative and fucking boring.
On February 01 2014 14:39 forsooth wrote: So we're gonna see some nasty new hydra timings that could seriously fuck shit up in ZvP and maybe even ZvT, and PO is still going to make it more or less impossible to attack Protoss early, and tempests are going to hurt buildings more for no apparent reason.
The energy cost change for time warp is a legitimately good change but the others are pretty lame or ineffectual. I don't even like the removal of Moebius Reactor because it continues the trend of tech commitments being gutted to help solve other problems. No siege research, no Moebius, no evo chamber for spores, and now we hear talk about removing the ebay requirement for turrets to help with an oracle whose speed buff was never necessary and which there is no reason not to simply revert.
On February 01 2014 14:22 geokilla wrote: Do they even read the community feedbacks? Everyone said no to the Tempest change and they proceed to do it anyways =.=
its a test map not everything is finalized. They want people to test shit out its not fucking rocket science to figure that out
I'd be perfectly fine with the tempest buff if they changed to that that they could only shoot ground. Then they'd be a much more interesting unit because they couldn't just hard counter other late game air units. They'd have a much clearer place in an airtoss composition, but I also don't play P. So my suggestion's probably useless xD
On February 01 2014 14:39 forsooth wrote: So we're gonna see some nasty new hydra timings that could seriously fuck shit up in ZvP and maybe even ZvT, and PO is still going to make it more or less impossible to attack Protoss early, and tempests are going to hurt buildings more for no apparent reason.
The energy cost change for time warp is a legitimately good change but the others are pretty lame or ineffectual. I don't even like the removal of Moebius Reactor because it continues the trend of tech commitments being gutted to help solve other problems. No siege research, no Moebius, no evo chamber for spores, and now we hear talk about removing the ebay requirement for turrets to help with an oracle whose speed buff was never necessary and which there is no reason not to simply revert.
Pretty much this.
Blizz will NEVER revert a change they do though.
If game was still in beta they might consider it but if you look at stuff they go through with, once something is in no matter how many people hate it or how bad of a mess up it is they will never revert the change they will just nerf it some other way so they don't look incompetent. That's why if the Oracle is ever nerfed I highly doubt they will ever reduce the move-speed they would do something like increase the build-time or make the weapon drain energy faster or who knows what they come up with.
I have a feeling that if there was a "Better than nothing, but completely goes into the wrong direction" option in the polls the amount of people who apparently "approve" would massively dwindle.
On February 01 2014 13:52 Fanatic-Templar wrote: I'm fine with the notion of reducing the cost of the Hydralisk, but it'd be nice if there was a bit of hp nerf or a buff to Storm so they could be more easily fought off with Templar. Especially with Ghosts getting buffed as well.
Tested a few games, hydra timings seem basically unbeatable as protoss. Got killed horribly 3 games in a row by an approximately 12 minute hydra max, never had a chance in hell against it.
Tried some PvTs, I laughed really hard when I won repeatedly with a 1 base tempest rush into all-in. Tempests just annihilate buildings, it's hilarious.
I''m really sorry but in this patch I see a reasonable buff for Protoss in endgame situations and a nerf that''ll only make PvP more volatile. Zerg gets an amazing tool as well, which I love, Hydralisk are a really cool unit! Terran get''s the removal of an upgrade that''s actually not going to matter -that- much except of 3 ghost all in timings...? That's the way they want to go? Or do I misunderstand something?
On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote: I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Let me get this straight: you think for PvT to have balance, we need no less than 3 protoss nerfs and 3 terran buffs, combined. Where did you get the idea that the matchup is so imbalanced that we need this many changes all at once?
Had it occurred to you that giving terran more viable options in the matchup is a substantial power increase? If you make mech just as strong as bio, there will be maps where mech is stronger than bio, and terrans will wind up being more powerful on those maps as a result of the versatility.
It's pretty clear that you haven't put any serious thought into actually balancing anything, your bias is showing.
Well recent results and from his experience of course. He listed his reasoning for each, and they all seem reasonable.
For example, the role of the mothership core was to be a defensive tool early game, as well as give protoss map presence in the mid to late game. Its currently being abused as an offensive unit early game with the support of stalkers.
The buff the oracle got for speed was to make them more viable for the late game, however what we have seen is the oracle being more effective in the early game where many times is game ending. That, and the combination of the all ins protoss has makes it very difficult for the Terran if the tech isn't able to be spotted in time (which I would say is more difficult than finding a pylon with 6 zerglings).
I thought Tempest rushing was a troll build, but it puts on alot of pressure on the T once the Tempest numbers go to 4; holding against this buff TvP will be really difficult.
On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote: I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Let me get this straight: you think for PvT to have balance, we need no less than 3 protoss nerfs and 3 terran buffs, combined. Where did you get the idea that the matchup is so imbalanced that we need this many changes all at once?
Had it occurred to you that giving terran more viable options in the matchup is a substantial power increase? If you make mech just as strong as bio, there will be maps where mech is stronger than bio, and terrans will wind up being more powerful on those maps as a result of the versatility.
It's pretty clear that you haven't put any serious thought into actually balancing anything, your bias is showing.
It''s Avilo tho. If the guy is know for something it is being a completely dilusional balance whiner.....
Point is, giving Terran one extra option DOES make them way stronger - just like MSC Oracle and blink force certain adaptations to builds, but Avilo doesn''t seem to recognise that. Terran is a really 'dangerous' race in that it becomes VERY dangerous really easilly, because the units are fast, marines are versatile and the race has always been aggressive. I get that buffing Terran is really hard, I highly disagree with the removal of upgrades as is (I mean, we've lost like 5/6 upgrades already, that's such a waste. More and expensive upgrades make tech paths take more dedication, which I like. Removing them all just makes the game more straightforward and less stylistic.
On February 01 2014 16:33 Tossim111 wrote: Well recent results and from his experience of course. He listed his reasoning for each, and they all seem reasonable.
I thought Tempest rushing was a troll build, but it puts on alot of pressure on the T once the Tempest numbers go to 4; holding against this buff TvP will be really difficult.
Recent results are inconclusive. Aligulac put matchup results at around 51% Protoss, 49% terran for the last month. GSL code A seemed to favor toss quite a bit, but proleague seemed to favor terran quite a bit. It seems like it's possible that protoss might have a slight overall advantage in the matchup at the moment, but it's absolutely not a huge one.
I agree with his msc vision range nerf, that's about it.
Oracle openings at the top levels seem like they're mostly disappearing, and when they do happen, don't get very many kills, so I don't understand the complaint around that.
It seems like he just wants his ideal mech build to be just as strong as every other build option for terran, but that is absolutely NOT a legitimate complaint about balance. He also tends to open greedy and go into a really fast 3 base mech build: it's no wonder he dies to protoss aggression. If you play greedy, you sometimes get punished for it. Arguments from experience are essentially anecdotal, and I don't think there are very many people who would agree that Avilo has experience at the top level of play in SC2, which makes an argument from experience fairly useless. His argument would therefore derive value from the actual reasoning provided, which is shoddy at best. He's right about the msc vision, but everyone pretty much knows that.
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning...
Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink. This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO... Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about. I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2?
On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote: I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Let me get this straight: you think for PvT to have balance, we need no less than 3 protoss nerfs and 3 terran buffs, combined. Where did you get the idea that the matchup is so imbalanced that we need this many changes all at once?
Had it occurred to you that giving terran more viable options in the matchup is a substantial power increase? If you make mech just as strong as bio, there will be maps where mech is stronger than bio, and terrans will wind up being more powerful on those maps as a result of the versatility.
It's pretty clear that you haven't put any serious thought into actually balancing anything, your bias is showing.
It''s Avilo tho. If the guy is know for something it is being a completely dilusional balance whiner.....
Point is, giving Terran one extra option DOES make them way stronger - just like MSC Oracle and blink force certain adaptations to builds, but Avilo doesn''t seem to recognise that. Terran is a really 'dangerous' race in that it becomes VERY dangerous really easilly, because the units are fast, marines are versatile and the race has always been aggressive. I get that buffing Terran is really hard, I highly disagree with the removal of upgrades as is (I mean, we've lost like 5/6 upgrades already, that's such a waste. More and expensive upgrades make tech paths take more dedication, which I like. Removing them all just makes the game more straightforward and less stylistic.
You can say it makes it less stylistic based off of variety of strategy... but truth is games would be heading towards actual display of skill rather than an auto loss to one of the many different strategies.
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning...
Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink. This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO... Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about. I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2?
I've tried all sorts of builds I want to work in this game, many of them don't work. I don't come in here whining about not being able to go only stargate units in PvT or only make units out of the robotics facility. I don't recall zergs complaining about not being able to reliably go ONLY zerglings in ZvP. Some things work, some don't. Just because it's your preferred playstyle does not mean it must be balanced against the entire enemy race. I don't get to go carriers, as much as I want that to be viable.
I get that you like mech and want to play it, and that it's fun for you. However, it is not a balance issue that mech does not work vs. protoss. It is gripe you have about the way the race works yes, but complaining that it is unfair that mech doesn't work is like protoss complaining that mass carriers doesn't work.
If you want mech to work vs. protoss with approximately the same strength as bio, either bio needs to be weakened a little, or protoss needs to be strengthened a little somewhere else. You cannot add options to one race without increasing its strength: the very option existing is a buff.
Oracles at the top level disappear indeed. The reason is what you don''t seem to recognise: Terrans have adapted their builds to hold oracles easilly. BUT that also means builds cannot be aggressive because you need marines at home. That also means you need to invest in defence infrastructure before you can even know whether you need it or not. The mere precence of the oracle forces adaptations -> just as the Tempest completely disables the Battle Cruiser from really working without mass raven support.
The reason why oracle needs to be nerfed back IMO is because it did not make sense to buff it... the reason why its strong is because T has to prepare for that while keeping in mind that he might be facing a blink all in instead.
On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote: I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Let me get this straight: you think for PvT to have balance, we need no less than 3 protoss nerfs and 3 terran buffs, combined. Where did you get the idea that the matchup is so imbalanced that we need this many changes all at once?
Had it occurred to you that giving terran more viable options in the matchup is a substantial power increase? If you make mech just as strong as bio, there will be maps where mech is stronger than bio, and terrans will wind up being more powerful on those maps as a result of the versatility.
It's pretty clear that you haven't put any serious thought into actually balancing anything, your bias is showing.
It''s Avilo tho. If the guy is know for something it is being a completely dilusional balance whiner.....
Point is, giving Terran one extra option DOES make them way stronger - just like MSC Oracle and blink force certain adaptations to builds, but Avilo doesn''t seem to recognise that. Terran is a really 'dangerous' race in that it becomes VERY dangerous really easilly, because the units are fast, marines are versatile and the race has always been aggressive. I get that buffing Terran is really hard, I highly disagree with the removal of upgrades as is (I mean, we've lost like 5/6 upgrades already, that's such a waste. More and expensive upgrades make tech paths take more dedication, which I like. Removing them all just makes the game more straightforward and less stylistic.
LoL. "Its Avilo"... Nice way to discuss,huh? Who are you man? Mvp or maybe Polt with a name for TL? Avilo at least try mech. He is not a balance whiner. He is the only man saying the real f.... true about SC2. None of the Progamers dare to even say what are they really thinking and you disrespect him so easily...We are talking about mech and you are saying "marines are dangerous and quick." COME ON, PLEASE, REALLY??? WTF? Can you show me a single VOD or BO when Terran is aggressive in early game TvP¿???? When was the last time Protoss Progamer lost PvT at 7:30 min mark???? WHEN? Blink all in forcé "certain adaptations"??? Have you ever played Terran, please? Come on, try it man and let me see your face, with 4 bunkers in Deadalus or Heavy Rain, stim,shields,medivacs and+1 at 7 mins while the blink all in is at your ramp.3 mins later you go out and discover the Protoss got doublé forge,robo,Nexus mining and fully saturated in the natural, you try to drop WHILE attacking the natural, the PO is casted on both nexi and you need to go home, trying to expand to catch the Protoss finishig his Storm and 3-3 at 14 min.After all this I wanna see you winning without pulling SCVs OR going MECH hehe. Please,THINK BEFORE YOU WRITE
On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote: I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Sooo...Buff terran nerf protoss? EDIT: Oh its avilo. Well moving on![spoiler]
On February 01 2014 16:48 SC2Toastie wrote: Oracles at the top level disappear indeed. The reason is what you don''t seem to recognise: Terrans have adapted their builds to hold oracles easilly. BUT that also means builds cannot be aggressive because you need marines at home. That also means you need to invest in defence infrastructure before you can even know whether you need it or not. The mere precence of the oracle forces adaptations -> just as the Tempest completely disables the Battle Cruiser from really working without mass raven support.
Protoss builds have been changed to adapt to many things terrans can do as well. Old protoss builds like the 1 colossus, take a third, go straight to templar is completely dead. Protoss can't have map control when medivacs are coming out around the 10 minute mark, no matter how badly we want it. There are times when toss can't be aggressive, and there are times when terran can't be aggressive. If terran can be aggressive whenever it wants regardless of what build toss attempts, do you really think that would be reasonable or fair?
The safest build that exists in PvT for Protoss is the Rain build, where he invests in a freaking cannon early on in his mineral lines in case of mine drops, even without knowing whether one is coming or not. If you play greedier than that, you can outright die to mines. Is it unfair that protoss has to account for detection early on in the game or else risk dying to mines? Cloak banshees disappeared because protoss is forced to open detection almost every game. Hero (CJ entus one) died in a proleague match a short while ago vs. Maru because he skipped detection and got killed by cloak banshees. So Protoss adapted to those threats and now opens robo every game, or oracle (which also detects). If nothing cloaked shows up, oh well, we make do with what we have.
It's not simply terran who is forced to do certain things because of their opponent's options. You make it sound like protoss can do literally anything it wants at any time, that is absolutely not the case.
Dude investing a cannon and being completely safe is as different from pressure from an oracle or blink all in as the earth to the moon.
the thing is... protoss can get ANY fucking tech... any thing literally. Can completely dictate terrans timings with their offensive capabilities. and T risks too much shit with that type of thinking
For example, the role of the mothership core was to be a defensive tool early game, as well as give protoss map presence in the mid to late game. Its currently being abused as an offensive unit early game with the support of stalkers.
Huh? Since its final iteration in the Beta it was meant to be an all-around support tool for Protoss. Early versions of the MSC (tethered to the Nexus) were more defensive, but they changed it up to make it into a unit and thereby to give Protoss more flexibility. This it has done. The MSC is a fine unit. There is an issue with spells like Time Warp, and maybe an issue with the MSC's vision. But, other than that, it is a great addition to Protoss and HOTS.
Edit/ Played one game on the test map so far. For some reason my Terran opponent did not make ghosts. Oh well. Back to it.
Otherwise, buffing mech through a bio unit is stupid and lazy, and trying to fix a terrible siege unit/tactic by buffing another no skill siege unit, what can go wrong?
On February 01 2014 16:33 Tossim111 wrote: Well recent results and from his experience of course. He listed his reasoning for each, and they all seem reasonable.
I thought Tempest rushing was a troll build, but it puts on alot of pressure on the T once the Tempest numbers go to 4; holding against this buff TvP will be really difficult.
Recent results are inconclusive. Aligulac put matchup results at around 51% Protoss, 49% terran for the last month. GSL code A seemed to favor toss quite a bit, but proleague seemed to favor terran quite a bit. It seems like it's possible that protoss might have a slight overall advantage in the matchup at the moment, but it's absolutely not a huge one.
I agree with his msc vision range nerf, that's about it.
Oracle openings at the top levels seem like they're mostly disappearing, and when they do happen, don't get very many kills, so I don't understand the complaint around that.
It seems like he just wants his ideal mech build to be just as strong as every other build option for terran, but that is absolutely NOT a legitimate complaint about balance. He also tends to open greedy and go into a really fast 3 base mech build: it's no wonder he dies to protoss aggression. If you play greedy, you sometimes get punished for it.
Don't parrot numbers, watch the games. The Proleague games have Protoss coming out against some of the best Terrans, playing ridiculous off-the-wall proxy strategies incompetently and losing, and this is somehow evidence that Protoss is beatable?
Terrans have to scout EVERYTHING that Protoss do with Reapers. Hmm... what does that remind me of? Maybe how Protoss were forced to go into Robo tech to get Observers in WOL? Which everybody said was unfair and stupid? So one of the goals of HOTS was to give Protoss more options through the MSC and Oracle? The point of an expansion isn't to release a bunch of new problems that need another expansion to get fixed, it's to make the game better than it was. At this rate, LOTV will fix Terran options but make Zerg unplayable, and then OOPS, no more expansions to fix Zerg, but don't worry, SC3 is coming Soon.
And even if Terrans scout, they can still misread. Look at the Squirtle vs. SkyHigh games in Code A, Wolf, the caster, couldn't tell if Squirtle was going for a Stalker All In (macro opening), a Stalker fake out macro opening, or a DT all in (macro opening). If a caster can't tell, how's a player supposed to? Scan every fifteen seconds? Keep making Reapers nonstop? Yeah, Squirtle's known for his BOs and this game was an extreme example, but it is an example of a widespread phenomenon. Terran is completely on the backfoot and even a perfect reaction usually results in Terran being even with Protoss, as opposed to coming out ahead.
Or watch the Inno vs. Zest series. My favorite moment was when Wolf shouted out "Innovation's micro is unbelievable!" and half a second later Zest put a Time Warp down on all of Innovation's units, completely denying Innovation's attempts to win that game using mechanical genius.
If you come away from all of that thinking the races are "almost balanced," you're freaking blind. And if you think they equally reward skill, which isn't a balance issue but unfortunately the balance team is also in charge of game design so the two issues get pretty conflated... see above.
edit: common consensus at end of WOL was that Terran was favored in early/mid and Protoss was favored in late game. So Protoss got Time Warp to help aggression/defense in the early/mid game (and Terrans got basically nothing, but whatever). Now imagine if instead of that happening, Terrans had gotten a spell on the Orbital Command that did the exact same thing and took the Armory to unlock.
Imagine if your Protoss army became 50% slower in a huge AOE... like, say, the area in between the bio-ball and the Zealots trying to charge in to engage them. Would you think that was a pretty cool spell that rewarded skill from both sides? Just curious.
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning...
Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink. This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO... Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about. I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2?
I've tried all sorts of builds I want to work in this game, many of them don't work. I don't come in here whining about not being able to go only stargate units in PvT or only make units out of the robotics facility. I don't recall zergs complaining about not being able to reliably go ONLY zerglings in ZvP. Some things work, some don't. Just because it's your preferred playstyle does not mean it must be balanced against the entire enemy race. I don't get to go carriers, as much as I want that to be viable.
I get that you like mech and want to play it, and that it's fun for you. However, it is not a balance issue that mech does not work vs. protoss. It is gripe you have about the way the race works yes, but complaining that it is unfair that mech doesn't work is like protoss complaining that mass carriers doesn't work.
If you want mech to work vs. protoss with approximately the same strength as bio, either bio needs to be weakened a little, or protoss needs to be strengthened a little somewhere else. You cannot add options to one race without increasing its strength: the very option existing is a buff.
Well, going only Stargate units in PvT is absolutely viable if the Terran plays mech. Opening with oracles,into voids or Phoenix with 2 base PO is posible. If the T goes BIO, you are dead, but this doesn mean you can compair going full Stargate,full Robo or Mass lings with going mech. MECH are Wm,Hellions,Hellbats,Tanks,Thors,Banshees,Ravens and even BCs or Medivacs(I use then to drop WM or HEllbats). Are you really gonna tell me all this units are the same as "mass lings"? Mech is a Style. You cant go mass carriers vs BIO Terran, but they shred everything if the Terran goes mech and allows you to mass them. Actually Protoss anti mech options are so many and so strong that its almost imposible to win and you only need to amove your Immortal/Archon/Collosi army into 15 presieged tanks. You call this "NORMAL"? The entire Protoss army for SC2 is designed to shut mech pretty hard: Charge to get quickly closer to siege lines.Blink doing the same.Collosi helping from behind,IMMORTALS shredding everything. Archons,Oracles,Void Rays...You need more?
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning...
Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink. This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO... Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about. I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2?
I've tried all sorts of builds I want to work in this game, many of them don't work. I don't come in here whining about not being able to go only stargate units in PvT or only make units out of the robotics facility. I don't recall zergs complaining about not being able to reliably go ONLY zerglings in ZvP. Some things work, some don't. Just because it's your preferred playstyle does not mean it must be balanced against the entire enemy race. I don't get to go carriers, as much as I want that to be viable.
I get that you like mech and want to play it, and that it's fun for you. However, it is not a balance issue that mech does not work vs. protoss. It is gripe you have about the way the race works yes, but complaining that it is unfair that mech doesn't work is like protoss complaining that mass carriers doesn't work.
If you want mech to work vs. protoss with approximately the same strength as bio, either bio needs to be weakened a little, or protoss needs to be strengthened a little somewhere else. You cannot add options to one race without increasing its strength: the very option existing is a buff.
Stopped reading at the bolded part. Cant believe people still dont get it that going Bio OR Mech(with support from Starport) is a unique thing to the Terran race just like Zerg can mass/swarm Units and Protoss has few but strong Units. Obviously never played BW.
LoL. "Its Avilo"... Nice way to discuss,huh? Who are you man? Mvp or maybe Polt with a name for TL? Avilo at least try mech. He is not a balance whiner. He is the only man saying the real f.... true about SC2. None of the Progamers dare to even say what are they really thinking and you disrespect him so easily...We are talking about mech and you are saying "marines are dangerous and quick." COME ON, PLEASE, REALLY??? WTF? Can you show me a single VOD or BO when Terran is aggressive in early game TvP¿???? When was the last time Protoss Progamer lost PvT at 7:30 min mark???? WHEN? Blink all in forcé "certain adaptations"??? Have you ever played Terran, please? Come on, try it man and let me see your face, with 4 bunkers in Deadalus or Heavy Rain, stim,shields,medivacs and+1 at 7 mins while the blink all in is at your ramp.3 mins later you go out and discover the Protoss got doublé forge,robo,Nexus mining and fully saturated in the natural, you try to drop WHILE attacking the natural, the PO is casted on both nexi and you need to go home, trying to expand to catch the Protoss finishig his Storm and 3-3 at 14 min.After all this I wanna see you winning without pulling SCVs OR going MECH hehe. Please,THINK BEFORE YOU WRITE
I fully agree here. Sad thing is when you posted that the guy below you just made the same useless "lol its avilo" argument. He may overreact sometimes but some things are really clever and true.
On February 01 2014 16:58 Tossim111 wrote: Dude investing a cannon and being completely safe is as different from pressure from an oracle or blink all in as the earth to the moon.
It's not like he makes only one cannon and no other units, he rushes out 3 stalkers to go with it, scouts, and is not aggressive at all whatsoever. The build makes a lot of sacrifices to guarantee he doesn't die, and he winds up behind frequently. The complaint was that terran had to make structures like an engi bay early on to be safe, so does protoss if he doesn't want to risk a straight up loss to certain builds.
It goes both ways, but most terran players don't bother to think about what it might be like from the protoss side of things, as most protoss don't consider what its like from the terran side of things. If you want to discuss balance, you need to do both. The complaints I've read in here are not really legitimate complaints. "I can't be aggressive early game" isn't a balance complaint, it's a "I wish this matchup worked differently and I could do the style I wanted to".
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning...
Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink. This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO... Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about. I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2?
I've tried all sorts of builds I want to work in this game, many of them don't work. I don't come in here whining about not being able to go only stargate units in PvT or only make units out of the robotics facility. I don't recall zergs complaining about not being able to reliably go ONLY zerglings in ZvP. Some things work, some don't. Just because it's your preferred playstyle does not mean it must be balanced against the entire enemy race. I don't get to go carriers, as much as I want that to be viable.
I get that you like mech and want to play it, and that it's fun for you. However, it is not a balance issue that mech does not work vs. protoss. It is gripe you have about the way the race works yes, but complaining that it is unfair that mech doesn't work is like protoss complaining that mass carriers doesn't work.
If you want mech to work vs. protoss with approximately the same strength as bio, either bio needs to be weakened a little, or protoss needs to be strengthened a little somewhere else. You cannot add options to one race without increasing its strength: the very option existing is a buff.
Well, going only Stargate units in PvT is absolutely viable if the Terran plays mech. Opening with oracles,into voids or Phoenix with 2 base PO is posible. If the T goes BIO, you are dead, but this doesn mean you can compair going full Stargate,full Robo or Mass lings with going mech. MECH are Wm,Hellions,Hellbats,Tanks,Thors,Banshees,Ravens and even BCs or Medivacs(I use then to drop WM or HEllbats). Are you really gonna tell me all this units are the same as "mass lings"? Mech is a Style. You cant go mass carriers vs BIO Terran, but they shred everything if the Terran goes mech and allows you to mass them. Actually Protoss anti mech options are so many and so strong that its almost imposible to win and you only need to amove your Immortal/Archon/Collosi army into 15 presieged tanks. You call this "NORMAL"? The entire Protoss army for SC2 is designed to shut mech pretty hard: Charge to get quickly closer to siege lines.Blink doing the same.Collosi helping from behind,IMMORTALS shredding everything. Archons,Oracles,Void Rays...You need more?
So what you're saying is, if the terran voluntarily lets me do it, I can do whatever I want? Thanks for the tautology.
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning...
Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink. This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO... Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about. I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2?
I've tried all sorts of builds I want to work in this game, many of them don't work. I don't come in here whining about not being able to go only stargate units in PvT or only make units out of the robotics facility. I don't recall zergs complaining about not being able to reliably go ONLY zerglings in ZvP. Some things work, some don't. Just because it's your preferred playstyle does not mean it must be balanced against the entire enemy race. I don't get to go carriers, as much as I want that to be viable.
I get that you like mech and want to play it, and that it's fun for you. However, it is not a balance issue that mech does not work vs. protoss. It is gripe you have about the way the race works yes, but complaining that it is unfair that mech doesn't work is like protoss complaining that mass carriers doesn't work.
If you want mech to work vs. protoss with approximately the same strength as bio, either bio needs to be weakened a little, or protoss needs to be strengthened a little somewhere else. You cannot add options to one race without increasing its strength: the very option existing is a buff.
Stopped reading at the bolded part. Cant believe people still dont get it that going Bio OR Mech is a unique thing to the Terran race just like Zerg can mass/swarm Units and Protoss has few but strong Units. Obviously never played BW.
LoL. "Its Avilo"... Nice way to discuss,huh? Who are you man? Mvp or maybe Polt with a name for TL? Avilo at least try mech. He is not a balance whiner. He is the only man saying the real f.... true about SC2. None of the Progamers dare to even say what are they really thinking and you disrespect him so easily...We are talking about mech and you are saying "marines are dangerous and quick." COME ON, PLEASE, REALLY??? WTF? Can you show me a single VOD or BO when Terran is aggressive in early game TvP¿???? When was the last time Protoss Progamer lost PvT at 7:30 min mark???? WHEN? Blink all in forcé "certain adaptations"??? Have you ever played Terran, please? Come on, try it man and let me see your face, with 4 bunkers in Deadalus or Heavy Rain, stim,shields,medivacs and+1 at 7 mins while the blink all in is at your ramp.3 mins later you go out and discover the Protoss got doublé forge,robo,Nexus mining and fully saturated in the natural, you try to drop WHILE attacking the natural, the PO is casted on both nexi and you need to go home, trying to expand to catch the Protoss finishig his Storm and 3-3 at 14 min.After all this I wanna see you winning without pulling SCVs OR going MECH hehe. Please,THINK BEFORE YOU WRITE
I fully agree here. Sad thing is when you posted that the guy below you just made the same useless "lol its avilo" argument. He may overreact sometimes but some things are really clever and true.
So you stopped reading and didn't bother to finish the rest of the argument. That's like someone saying "The world isn't flat, it's round, let me explain how we know..." And you stop reading after "The world isn't flat" because it doesn't fit your preconceptions. It also isn't exactly very helpful to any sort of discussion to read 2 sentences and then declare "I don't agree, I'm not reading the rest." That adds absolutely nothing.
In BW, terran could not viably go bio in TvP except for some weird wonky all-in builds. It wasn't really a choice, the only matchup where bio was consistently viable for them was TvZ. It wasn't a choice then either. If you went bio in TvP, you pretty much lost the moment reavers hit the field.
Even as a Zerg I don't support, nor do I understand the hydralisk buff. Seems like another example of Blizzard messing with something that isn't broken again...
ugh
On February 01 2014 16:48 ZenithM wrote: I don't know Kim...
On February 01 2014 16:48 SC2Toastie wrote: Oracles at the top level disappear indeed. The reason is what you don''t seem to recognise: Terrans have adapted their builds to hold oracles easilly. BUT that also means builds cannot be aggressive because you need marines at home. That also means you need to invest in defence infrastructure before you can even know whether you need it or not. The mere precence of the oracle forces adaptations -> just as the Tempest completely disables the Battle Cruiser from really working without mass raven support.
Protoss builds have been changed to adapt to many things terrans can do as well. Old protoss builds like the 1 colossus, take a third, go straight to templar is completely dead. Protoss can't have map control when medivacs are coming out around the 10 minute mark, no matter how badly we want it. There are times when toss can't be aggressive, and there are times when terran can't be aggressive. If terran can be aggressive whenever it wants regardless of what build toss attempts, do you really think that would be reasonable or fair?
The safest build that exists in PvT for Protoss is the Rain build, where he invests in a freaking cannon early on in his mineral lines in case of mine drops, even without knowing whether one is coming or not. If you play greedier than that, you can outright die to mines. Is it unfair that protoss has to account for detection early on in the game or else risk dying to mines? Cloak banshees disappeared because protoss is forced to open detection almost every game. Hero (CJ entus one) died in a proleague match a short while ago vs. Maru because he skipped detection and got killed by cloak banshees. So Protoss adapted to those threats and now opens robo every game, or oracle (which also detects). If nothing cloaked shows up, oh well, we make do with what we have.
It's not simply terran who is forced to do certain things because of their opponent's options. You make it sound like protoss can do literally anything it wants at any time, that is absolutely not the case.
Banshee did not disappear because of Protoss going for detection every game. They are gone because of the 13 ranged Planetary NExus,man. You are affraind of WM drops? How many PvTs end before 10 mins with Terran win? Oh, one game in the last two years? Really?Oracle not only detecs, but also can kill a mínimum of FOUR workers and escape without dying,whle able to detect home and kill the WM.The WM drop means the T is going 1-1-1 and this is only one of the two builds Terran can go vs P.Now lets see how many does P got??? Terran are able to be aggressive ONLY when Medivacs are out and if their banshee or WM drop does not do enough damage, they got miles behind because of the investment.Protoss can Oracle,DT w/o Warp Prism and blink and still can expand.The difference is that Protoss can be aggerssive from the minute 4 sending a Zealot,MScore Stalker poke while Terran cant even rsik to go up the ramp...
On February 01 2014 16:48 SC2Toastie wrote: Oracles at the top level disappear indeed. The reason is what you don''t seem to recognise: Terrans have adapted their builds to hold oracles easilly. BUT that also means builds cannot be aggressive because you need marines at home. That also means you need to invest in defence infrastructure before you can even know whether you need it or not. The mere precence of the oracle forces adaptations -> just as the Tempest completely disables the Battle Cruiser from really working without mass raven support.
Protoss builds have been changed to adapt to many things terrans can do as well. Old protoss builds like the 1 colossus, take a third, go straight to templar is completely dead. Protoss can't have map control when medivacs are coming out around the 10 minute mark, no matter how badly we want it. There are times when toss can't be aggressive, and there are times when terran can't be aggressive. If terran can be aggressive whenever it wants regardless of what build toss attempts, do you really think that would be reasonable or fair?
The safest build that exists in PvT for Protoss is the Rain build, where he invests in a freaking cannon early on in his mineral lines in case of mine drops, even without knowing whether one is coming or not. If you play greedier than that, you can outright die to mines. Is it unfair that protoss has to account for detection early on in the game or else risk dying to mines? Cloak banshees disappeared because protoss is forced to open detection almost every game. Hero (CJ entus one) died in a proleague match a short while ago vs. Maru because he skipped detection and got killed by cloak banshees. So Protoss adapted to those threats and now opens robo every game, or oracle (which also detects). If nothing cloaked shows up, oh well, we make do with what we have.
It's not simply terran who is forced to do certain things because of their opponent's options. You make it sound like protoss can do literally anything it wants at any time, that is absolutely not the case.
Banshee did not disappear because of Protoss going for detection every game. They are gone because of the 13 ranged Planetary NExus,man. You are affraind of WM drops? How many PvTs end before 10 mins with Terran win? Oh, one game in the last two years? Really?Oracle not only detecs, but also can kill a mínimum of FOUR workers and escape without dying,whle able to detect home and kill the WM.The WM drop means the T is going 1-1-1 and this is only one of the two builds Terran can go vs P.Now lets see how many does P got??? Terran are able to be aggressive ONLY when Medivacs are out and if their banshee or WM drop does not do enough damage, they got miles behind because of the investment.Protoss can Oracle,DT w/o Warp Prism and blink and still can expand.The difference is that Protoss can be aggerssive from the minute 4 sending a Zealot,MScore Stalker poke while Terran cant even rsik to go up the ramp...
Banshees with cloak stopped showing up because protoss always has detection. Nexus cannon means nothing if you can't detect the cloaked banshee, and they even made cloak cheaper. It's purely the fact that protoss adapted to the threats and gets detection every game. We've seen from games like that CJ_Hero vs. Maru game where Maru flat out killed him with cloaked banshees that if you skip detection you die to it. The cannon has absolutely nothing to do with it. Oh, and a one base oracle build getting only 4 workers actually puts the protoss behind, so there goes that argument. Stuff protoss does costs money too bro, it's not free. It's all an investment. In ZvT, once speed finishes, zerg gets a nice long while to have map control, and there's pretty much nothing terran can do about it until medivacs are out. It's NORMAL for a race to have timings where they can't really be aggressive. This argument is silly.
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning...
Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink. This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO... Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about. I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2?
I've tried all sorts of builds I want to work in this game, many of them don't work. I don't come in here whining about not being able to go only stargate units in PvT or only make units out of the robotics facility. I don't recall zergs complaining about not being able to reliably go ONLY zerglings in ZvP. Some things work, some don't. Just because it's your preferred playstyle does not mean it must be balanced against the entire enemy race. I don't get to go carriers, as much as I want that to be viable.
I get that you like mech and want to play it, and that it's fun for you. However, it is not a balance issue that mech does not work vs. protoss. It is gripe you have about the way the race works yes, but complaining that it is unfair that mech doesn't work is like protoss complaining that mass carriers doesn't work.
If you want mech to work vs. protoss with approximately the same strength as bio, either bio needs to be weakened a little, or protoss needs to be strengthened a little somewhere else. You cannot add options to one race without increasing its strength: the very option existing is a buff.
Well, going only Stargate units in PvT is absolutely viable if the Terran plays mech. Opening with oracles,into voids or Phoenix with 2 base PO is posible. If the T goes BIO, you are dead, but this doesn mean you can compair going full Stargate,full Robo or Mass lings with going mech. MECH are Wm,Hellions,Hellbats,Tanks,Thors,Banshees,Ravens and even BCs or Medivacs(I use then to drop WM or HEllbats). Are you really gonna tell me all this units are the same as "mass lings"? Mech is a Style. You cant go mass carriers vs BIO Terran, but they shred everything if the Terran goes mech and allows you to mass them. Actually Protoss anti mech options are so many and so strong that its almost imposible to win and you only need to amove your Immortal/Archon/Collosi army into 15 presieged tanks. You call this "NORMAL"? The entire Protoss army for SC2 is designed to shut mech pretty hard: Charge to get quickly closer to siege lines.Blink doing the same.Collosi helping from behind,IMMORTALS shredding everything. Archons,Oracles,Void Rays...You need more?
So what you're saying is, if the terran voluntarily lets me do it, I can do whatever I want? Thanks for the tautology.
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning...
Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink. This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO... Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about. I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2?
I've tried all sorts of builds I want to work in this game, many of them don't work. I don't come in here whining about not being able to go only stargate units in PvT or only make units out of the robotics facility. I don't recall zergs complaining about not being able to reliably go ONLY zerglings in ZvP. Some things work, some don't. Just because it's your preferred playstyle does not mean it must be balanced against the entire enemy race. I don't get to go carriers, as much as I want that to be viable.
I get that you like mech and want to play it, and that it's fun for you. However, it is not a balance issue that mech does not work vs. protoss. It is gripe you have about the way the race works yes, but complaining that it is unfair that mech doesn't work is like protoss complaining that mass carriers doesn't work.
If you want mech to work vs. protoss with approximately the same strength as bio, either bio needs to be weakened a little, or protoss needs to be strengthened a little somewhere else. You cannot add options to one race without increasing its strength: the very option existing is a buff.
Stopped reading at the bolded part. Cant believe people still dont get it that going Bio OR Mech is a unique thing to the Terran race just like Zerg can mass/swarm Units and Protoss has few but strong Units. Obviously never played BW.
LoL. "Its Avilo"... Nice way to discuss,huh? Who are you man? Mvp or maybe Polt with a name for TL? Avilo at least try mech. He is not a balance whiner. He is the only man saying the real f.... true about SC2. None of the Progamers dare to even say what are they really thinking and you disrespect him so easily...We are talking about mech and you are saying "marines are dangerous and quick." COME ON, PLEASE, REALLY??? WTF? Can you show me a single VOD or BO when Terran is aggressive in early game TvP¿???? When was the last time Protoss Progamer lost PvT at 7:30 min mark???? WHEN? Blink all in forcé "certain adaptations"??? Have you ever played Terran, please? Come on, try it man and let me see your face, with 4 bunkers in Deadalus or Heavy Rain, stim,shields,medivacs and+1 at 7 mins while the blink all in is at your ramp.3 mins later you go out and discover the Protoss got doublé forge,robo,Nexus mining and fully saturated in the natural, you try to drop WHILE attacking the natural, the PO is casted on both nexi and you need to go home, trying to expand to catch the Protoss finishig his Storm and 3-3 at 14 min.After all this I wanna see you winning without pulling SCVs OR going MECH hehe. Please,THINK BEFORE YOU WRITE
I fully agree here. Sad thing is when you posted that the guy below you just made the same useless "lol its avilo" argument. He may overreact sometimes but some things are really clever and true.
So you stopped reading and didn't bother to finish the rest of the argument. That's like someone saying "The world isn't flat, it's round, let me explain how we know..." And you stop reading after "The world isn't flat" because it doesn't fit your preconceptions. It also isn't exactly very helpful to any sort of discussion to read 2 sentences and then declare "I don't agree, I'm not reading the rest." That adds absolutely nothing.
In BW, terran could not viably go bio in TvP except for some weird wonky all-in builds. It wasn't really a choice, the only matchup where bio was consistently viable for them was TvZ. It wasn't a choice then either. If you went bio in TvP, you pretty much lost the moment reavers hit the field.
What I am saying is IF Terran decides to go MECH YOU WILL BE ABLE TO MASS CARRIERS. Terran need to turtle on 3 bases to secure 6 gases to be able to upgrade as well as you with two armories and research at least Blue Flame for HEllbats,make ghosts with Moebius and cloak upgrade,as well as banshees and Ravens with their upgrades. Can you add all this to turrets and Sensor towers to prevent DTs and Warp Prism drops in the main and try to calculate the gas required.
On February 01 2014 16:48 SC2Toastie wrote: Oracles at the top level disappear indeed. The reason is what you don''t seem to recognise: Terrans have adapted their builds to hold oracles easilly. BUT that also means builds cannot be aggressive because you need marines at home. That also means you need to invest in defence infrastructure before you can even know whether you need it or not. The mere precence of the oracle forces adaptations -> just as the Tempest completely disables the Battle Cruiser from really working without mass raven support.
Protoss builds have been changed to adapt to many things terrans can do as well. Old protoss builds like the 1 colossus, take a third, go straight to templar is completely dead. Protoss can't have map control when medivacs are coming out around the 10 minute mark, no matter how badly we want it. There are times when toss can't be aggressive, and there are times when terran can't be aggressive. If terran can be aggressive whenever it wants regardless of what build toss attempts, do you really think that would be reasonable or fair?
The safest build that exists in PvT for Protoss is the Rain build, where he invests in a freaking cannon early on in his mineral lines in case of mine drops, even without knowing whether one is coming or not. If you play greedier than that, you can outright die to mines. Is it unfair that protoss has to account for detection early on in the game or else risk dying to mines? Cloak banshees disappeared because protoss is forced to open detection almost every game. Hero (CJ entus one) died in a proleague match a short while ago vs. Maru because he skipped detection and got killed by cloak banshees. So Protoss adapted to those threats and now opens robo every game, or oracle (which also detects). If nothing cloaked shows up, oh well, we make do with what we have.
It's not simply terran who is forced to do certain things because of their opponent's options. You make it sound like protoss can do literally anything it wants at any time, that is absolutely not the case.
Banshee did not disappear because of Protoss going for detection every game. They are gone because of the 13 ranged Planetary NExus,man. You are affraind of WM drops? How many PvTs end before 10 mins with Terran win? Oh, one game in the last two years? Really?Oracle not only detecs, but also can kill a mínimum of FOUR workers and escape without dying,whle able to detect home and kill the WM.The WM drop means the T is going 1-1-1 and this is only one of the two builds Terran can go vs P.Now lets see how many does P got??? Terran are able to be aggressive ONLY when Medivacs are out and if their banshee or WM drop does not do enough damage, they got miles behind because of the investment.Protoss can Oracle,DT w/o Warp Prism and blink and still can expand.The difference is that Protoss can be aggerssive from the minute 4 sending a Zealot,MScore Stalker poke while Terran cant even rsik to go up the ramp...
Banshees with cloak stopped showing up because protoss always has detection. Nexus cannon means nothing if you can't detect the cloaked banshee, and they even made cloak cheaper. It's purely the fact that protoss adapted to the threats and gets detection every game. We've seen from games like that CJ_Hero vs. Maru game where Maru flat out killed him with cloaked banshees that if you skip detection you die to it. The cannon has absolutely nothing to do with it. Oh, and a one base oracle build getting only 4 workers actually puts the protoss behind, so there goes that argument. Stuff protoss does costs money too bro, it's not free. It's all an investment. In ZvT, once speed finishes, zerg gets a nice long while to have map control, and there's pretty much nothing terran can do about it until medivacs are out. It's NORMAL for a race to have timings where they can't really be aggressive. This argument is silly.
Protoss "adapted"???
You now have a unit that can be macro opened with out of a proxy Stargate that is guaranteed to get kills unless you fuck up, which doubles as a detector.
What are you going to come up with next, Protoss "adapted" to Reaper aggression by nerfing the Reaper and getting PO?
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning...
Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink. This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO... Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about. I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2?
I've tried all sorts of builds I want to work in this game, many of them don't work. I don't come in here whining about not being able to go only stargate units in PvT or only make units out of the robotics facility. I don't recall zergs complaining about not being able to reliably go ONLY zerglings in ZvP. Some things work, some don't. Just because it's your preferred playstyle does not mean it must be balanced against the entire enemy race. I don't get to go carriers, as much as I want that to be viable.
I get that you like mech and want to play it, and that it's fun for you. However, it is not a balance issue that mech does not work vs. protoss. It is gripe you have about the way the race works yes, but complaining that it is unfair that mech doesn't work is like protoss complaining that mass carriers doesn't work.
If you want mech to work vs. protoss with approximately the same strength as bio, either bio needs to be weakened a little, or protoss needs to be strengthened a little somewhere else. You cannot add options to one race without increasing its strength: the very option existing is a buff.
Well, going only Stargate units in PvT is absolutely viable if the Terran plays mech. Opening with oracles,into voids or Phoenix with 2 base PO is posible. If the T goes BIO, you are dead, but this doesn mean you can compair going full Stargate,full Robo or Mass lings with going mech. MECH are Wm,Hellions,Hellbats,Tanks,Thors,Banshees,Ravens and even BCs or Medivacs(I use then to drop WM or HEllbats). Are you really gonna tell me all this units are the same as "mass lings"? Mech is a Style. You cant go mass carriers vs BIO Terran, but they shred everything if the Terran goes mech and allows you to mass them. Actually Protoss anti mech options are so many and so strong that its almost imposible to win and you only need to amove your Immortal/Archon/Collosi army into 15 presieged tanks. You call this "NORMAL"? The entire Protoss army for SC2 is designed to shut mech pretty hard: Charge to get quickly closer to siege lines.Blink doing the same.Collosi helping from behind,IMMORTALS shredding everything. Archons,Oracles,Void Rays...You need more?
So what you're saying is, if the terran voluntarily lets me do it, I can do whatever I want? Thanks for the tautology.
On February 01 2014 17:02 Tresher wrote:
On February 01 2014 16:44 Whitewing wrote:
On February 01 2014 16:38 Dvriel wrote:
On February 01 2014 10:58 Musicus wrote:
On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:
On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote: I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning...
Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink. This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO... Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about. I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2?
I've tried all sorts of builds I want to work in this game, many of them don't work. I don't come in here whining about not being able to go only stargate units in PvT or only make units out of the robotics facility. I don't recall zergs complaining about not being able to reliably go ONLY zerglings in ZvP. Some things work, some don't. Just because it's your preferred playstyle does not mean it must be balanced against the entire enemy race. I don't get to go carriers, as much as I want that to be viable.
I get that you like mech and want to play it, and that it's fun for you. However, it is not a balance issue that mech does not work vs. protoss. It is gripe you have about the way the race works yes, but complaining that it is unfair that mech doesn't work is like protoss complaining that mass carriers doesn't work.
If you want mech to work vs. protoss with approximately the same strength as bio, either bio needs to be weakened a little, or protoss needs to be strengthened a little somewhere else. You cannot add options to one race without increasing its strength: the very option existing is a buff.
Stopped reading at the bolded part. Cant believe people still dont get it that going Bio OR Mech is a unique thing to the Terran race just like Zerg can mass/swarm Units and Protoss has few but strong Units. Obviously never played BW.
LoL. "Its Avilo"... Nice way to discuss,huh? Who are you man? Mvp or maybe Polt with a name for TL? Avilo at least try mech. He is not a balance whiner. He is the only man saying the real f.... true about SC2. None of the Progamers dare to even say what are they really thinking and you disrespect him so easily...We are talking about mech and you are saying "marines are dangerous and quick." COME ON, PLEASE, REALLY??? WTF? Can you show me a single VOD or BO when Terran is aggressive in early game TvP¿???? When was the last time Protoss Progamer lost PvT at 7:30 min mark???? WHEN? Blink all in forcé "certain adaptations"??? Have you ever played Terran, please? Come on, try it man and let me see your face, with 4 bunkers in Deadalus or Heavy Rain, stim,shields,medivacs and+1 at 7 mins while the blink all in is at your ramp.3 mins later you go out and discover the Protoss got doublé forge,robo,Nexus mining and fully saturated in the natural, you try to drop WHILE attacking the natural, the PO is casted on both nexi and you need to go home, trying to expand to catch the Protoss finishig his Storm and 3-3 at 14 min.After all this I wanna see you winning without pulling SCVs OR going MECH hehe. Please,THINK BEFORE YOU WRITE
I fully agree here. Sad thing is when you posted that the guy below you just made the same useless "lol its avilo" argument. He may overreact sometimes but some things are really clever and true.
So you stopped reading and didn't bother to finish the rest of the argument. That's like someone saying "The world isn't flat, it's round, let me explain how we know..." And you stop reading after "The world isn't flat" because it doesn't fit your preconceptions. It also isn't exactly very helpful to any sort of discussion to read 2 sentences and then declare "I don't agree, I'm not reading the rest." That adds absolutely nothing.
In BW, terran could not viably go bio in TvP except for some weird wonky all-in builds. It wasn't really a choice, the only matchup where bio was consistently viable for them was TvZ. It wasn't a choice then either. If you went bio in TvP, you pretty much lost the moment reavers hit the field.
What I am saying is IF Terran decides to go MECH YOU WILL BE ABLE TO MASS CARRIERS. Terran need to turtle on 3 bases to secure 6 gases to be able to upgrade as well as you with two armories and research at least Blue Flame for HEllbats,make ghosts with Moebius and cloak upgrade,as well as banshees and Ravens with their upgrades. Can you add all this to turrets and Sensor towers to prevent DTs and Warp Prism drops in the main and try to calculate the gas required.
And what I'm saying is that Terran has to choose to allow me to do it. If Zerg decides to go up to 100 drones before making units, I can go 3 nexus before gateway. That does not mean it's always viable regardless of what my opponent chooses to do, like people seem to want mech to be. Some strategies simply are weaker than others, or have vulnerabilities that others don't. And that's a good thing. Imagine, for a moment, if carrier rushing was viable in every matchup against every build regardless of what the opponent did. Wouldn't that suck?
QXC did a good job of explaining this in a video a while back: if both bio and mech are always viable options and both are always very strong choices, protoss is pretty much fucked.
On February 01 2014 16:48 SC2Toastie wrote: Oracles at the top level disappear indeed. The reason is what you don''t seem to recognise: Terrans have adapted their builds to hold oracles easilly. BUT that also means builds cannot be aggressive because you need marines at home. That also means you need to invest in defence infrastructure before you can even know whether you need it or not. The mere precence of the oracle forces adaptations -> just as the Tempest completely disables the Battle Cruiser from really working without mass raven support.
Protoss builds have been changed to adapt to many things terrans can do as well. Old protoss builds like the 1 colossus, take a third, go straight to templar is completely dead. Protoss can't have map control when medivacs are coming out around the 10 minute mark, no matter how badly we want it. There are times when toss can't be aggressive, and there are times when terran can't be aggressive. If terran can be aggressive whenever it wants regardless of what build toss attempts, do you really think that would be reasonable or fair?
The safest build that exists in PvT for Protoss is the Rain build, where he invests in a freaking cannon early on in his mineral lines in case of mine drops, even without knowing whether one is coming or not. If you play greedier than that, you can outright die to mines. Is it unfair that protoss has to account for detection early on in the game or else risk dying to mines? Cloak banshees disappeared because protoss is forced to open detection almost every game. Hero (CJ entus one) died in a proleague match a short while ago vs. Maru because he skipped detection and got killed by cloak banshees. So Protoss adapted to those threats and now opens robo every game, or oracle (which also detects). If nothing cloaked shows up, oh well, we make do with what we have.
It's not simply terran who is forced to do certain things because of their opponent's options. You make it sound like protoss can do literally anything it wants at any time, that is absolutely not the case.
Banshee did not disappear because of Protoss going for detection every game. They are gone because of the 13 ranged Planetary NExus,man. You are affraind of WM drops? How many PvTs end before 10 mins with Terran win? Oh, one game in the last two years? Really?Oracle not only detecs, but also can kill a mínimum of FOUR workers and escape without dying,whle able to detect home and kill the WM.The WM drop means the T is going 1-1-1 and this is only one of the two builds Terran can go vs P.Now lets see how many does P got??? Terran are able to be aggressive ONLY when Medivacs are out and if their banshee or WM drop does not do enough damage, they got miles behind because of the investment.Protoss can Oracle,DT w/o Warp Prism and blink and still can expand.The difference is that Protoss can be aggerssive from the minute 4 sending a Zealot,MScore Stalker poke while Terran cant even rsik to go up the ramp...
Banshees with cloak stopped showing up because protoss always has detection. Nexus cannon means nothing if you can't detect the cloaked banshee, and they even made cloak cheaper. It's purely the fact that protoss adapted to the threats and gets detection every game. We've seen from games like that CJ_Hero vs. Maru game where Maru flat out killed him with cloaked banshees that if you skip detection you die to it. The cannon has absolutely nothing to do with it. Oh, and a one base oracle build getting only 4 workers actually puts the protoss behind, so there goes that argument. Stuff protoss does costs money too bro, it's not free. It's all an investment. In ZvT, once speed finishes, zerg gets a nice long while to have map control, and there's pretty much nothing terran can do about it until medivacs are out. It's NORMAL for a race to have timings where they can't really be aggressive. This argument is silly.
Protoss "adapted"???
You now have a unit that can be macro opened with out of a proxy Stargate that is guaranteed to get kills unless you fuck up, which doubles as a detector.
What are you going to come up with next, Protoss "adapted" to Reaper aggression by nerfing the Reaper and getting PO?
I'm sorry, what? I just explained how builds like the old 3 nexus DT build InCa invented in GSL are completely dead due to things like widow mines and cloak banshee, and how every toss build must incorporate detection, and you respond with "lol you didn't adapt, you have detection?" Let me ask you this, given the investment in a stargate, an oracle, and the timings involved that require a delayed expansion, and the delayed robo tech and upgrades from forges, exactly how many kills does an oracle need to get to break even compared to a simple 1 gate expand into robo + double forge? And it's absolutely not guaranteed to get kills, I've seen pro games where the oracle flies in, runs smack into a bunch of marines and zooms out without a kill. I've seen oracles get 2-3 kills, I've seen games in proleague and GSL where an oracle flies in and just dies immediately. There is no guarantee.
On February 01 2014 17:08 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Even as a Zerg I don't support, nor do I understand the hydralisk buff. Seems like another example of Blizzard messing with something that isn't broken again...
On February 01 2014 17:08 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Even as a Zerg I don't support, nor do I understand the hydralisk buff. Seems like another example of Blizzard messing with something that isn't broken again...
ugh
On February 01 2014 16:48 ZenithM wrote: I don't know Kim...
fixed
Though I agree with you,You can't deny we need better anti-air though. And I meant a buff in strictly anti air
I don't agree, your anti-air is pretty powerful overall. Fungal + corrupter fleet + spores and vipers for abduct pretty much make it impossible for a protoss air army to ever engage zerg without dying. Swarm hosts make it so templar support for storms is non-viable, and zerg just abducts the protoss to death. It's a really boring and lame game, but if you buff other anti-air, you're just going to see zerg waltz in and kill toss pretty much every time.
Winrates for zergs overall right now are extremely solid, very close to 50/50 in all matchups. Why do they need a buff at all?
On February 01 2014 17:08 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Even as a Zerg I don't support, nor do I understand the hydralisk buff. Seems like another example of Blizzard messing with something that isn't broken again...
ugh
On February 01 2014 16:48 ZenithM wrote: I don't know Kim...
fixed
Though I agree with you,You can't deny we need better anti-air though. And I meant a buff in strictly anti air
I don't agree, your anti-air is pretty powerful overall. Fungal + corrupter fleet + spores and vipers for abduct pretty much make it impossible for a protoss air army to ever engage zerg without dying. Swarm hosts make it so templar support for storms is non-viable, and zerg just abducts the protoss to death. It's a really boring and lame game, but if you buff other anti-air, you're just going to see zerg waltz in and kill toss pretty much every time.
Think about what you said, you have just listed a need for infestation pit,spire and hive just to defend against a airtoss. Well for terran its barracks and toss a cyber core, plus add in the fact that marines and stalkers scale well from early-mid-late game. What you listed for us is only available in mid game, plus hydras really really dont scale well.
On February 01 2014 17:08 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Even as a Zerg I don't support, nor do I understand the hydralisk buff. Seems like another example of Blizzard messing with something that isn't broken again...
ugh
On February 01 2014 16:48 ZenithM wrote: I don't know Kim...
fixed
Though I agree with you,You can't deny we need better anti-air though. And I meant a buff in strictly anti air
I don't agree, your anti-air is pretty powerful overall. Fungal + corrupter fleet + spores and vipers for abduct pretty much make it impossible for a protoss air army to ever engage zerg without dying. Swarm hosts make it so templar support for storms is non-viable, and zerg just abducts the protoss to death. It's a really boring and lame game, but if you buff other anti-air, you're just going to see zerg waltz in and kill toss pretty much every time.
Dont talk about win rates only when it benefits you. you have posted before when toss were doing well that blizz should not be dependent on winrates to balance games.
On February 01 2014 17:08 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Even as a Zerg I don't support, nor do I understand the hydralisk buff. Seems like another example of Blizzard messing with something that isn't broken again...
ugh
On February 01 2014 16:48 ZenithM wrote: I don't know Kim...
fixed
Though I agree with you,You can't deny we need better anti-air though. And I meant a buff in strictly anti air
I don't agree, your anti-air is pretty powerful overall. Fungal + corrupter fleet + spores and vipers for abduct pretty much make it impossible for a protoss air army to ever engage zerg without dying. Swarm hosts make it so templar support for storms is non-viable, and zerg just abducts the protoss to death. It's a really boring and lame game, but if you buff other anti-air, you're just going to see zerg waltz in and kill toss pretty much every time.
Think about what you said, you have just listed a need for infestation pit,spire and hive just to defend against a airtoss. Well for terran its barracks and toss a cyber core, plus add in the fact that marines and stalkers scale well from early-mid-late game. What you listed for us is only available in mid game, plus hydras really really dont scale well.
In the mid-game, hydra/infestor does very well. Zerg tech is easier to get than toss or terran tech is, you just make the one building and every hatch can make your tech. You only need that huge anti-air comp for the end game toss army. For the mid-game, hydra/infestor does fantastic vs. void rays. Earlier on, queens do extremely well. The matchup is quite balanced right now, I don't understand the complaints.
On February 01 2014 17:08 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Even as a Zerg I don't support, nor do I understand the hydralisk buff. Seems like another example of Blizzard messing with something that isn't broken again...
ugh
On February 01 2014 16:48 ZenithM wrote: I don't know Kim...
fixed
Though I agree with you,You can't deny we need better anti-air though. And I meant a buff in strictly anti air
I don't agree, your anti-air is pretty powerful overall. Fungal + corrupter fleet + spores and vipers for abduct pretty much make it impossible for a protoss air army to ever engage zerg without dying. Swarm hosts make it so templar support for storms is non-viable, and zerg just abducts the protoss to death. It's a really boring and lame game, but if you buff other anti-air, you're just going to see zerg waltz in and kill toss pretty much every time.
Dont talk about win rates only when it benefits you. you have posted before when toss were doing well that blizz should not be dependent on winrates to balance games.
I've said that blizzard should delay patches for a little while to see if the trends pull the winrates back to around even, I've even said that balance flaws are not design flaws. I've never said winrates should be ignored, they are literally the only data that exists. I have said that ladder winrates aren't as valuable as pro game winrates, if that's what you are referring to. I have said that which winrates matter.
On February 01 2014 17:08 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Even as a Zerg I don't support, nor do I understand the hydralisk buff. Seems like another example of Blizzard messing with something that isn't broken again...
ugh
On February 01 2014 16:48 ZenithM wrote: I don't know Kim...
fixed
Though I agree with you,You can't deny we need better anti-air though. And I meant a buff in strictly anti air
I don't agree, your anti-air is pretty powerful overall. Fungal + corrupter fleet + spores and vipers for abduct pretty much make it impossible for a protoss air army to ever engage zerg without dying. Swarm hosts make it so templar support for storms is non-viable, and zerg just abducts the protoss to death. It's a really boring and lame game, but if you buff other anti-air, you're just going to see zerg waltz in and kill toss pretty much every time.
Think about what you said, you have just listed a need for infestation pit,spire and hive just to defend against a airtoss. Well for terran its barracks and toss a cyber core, plus add in the fact that marines and stalkers scale well from early-mid-late game. What you listed for us is only available in mid game, plus hydras really really dont scale well.
In the mid-game, hydra/infestor does very well. Zerg tech is easier to get than toss or terran tech is, you just make the one building and every hatch can make your tech. You only need that huge anti-air comp for the end game toss army. For the mid-game, hydra/infestor does fantastic vs. void rays. Earlier on, queens do extremely well. The matchup is quite balanced right now, I don't understand the complaints.
You are assuming all zerg wants to do is defend. Early on, Queens cant do shit with how slow they walk. Why shouldnt zerg have a viable attack AND defend option early on?Right now with how protoss are with the photon overcharge and void rays, shutting down roach attacks and lings are so easy. And please, hydra/infestor get shit on well by protosses who have the brains to build colossus behind their void rays
On February 01 2014 17:08 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Even as a Zerg I don't support, nor do I understand the hydralisk buff. Seems like another example of Blizzard messing with something that isn't broken again...
ugh
On February 01 2014 16:48 ZenithM wrote: I don't know Kim...
fixed
Though I agree with you,You can't deny we need better anti-air though. And I meant a buff in strictly anti air
I don't agree, your anti-air is pretty powerful overall. Fungal + corrupter fleet + spores and vipers for abduct pretty much make it impossible for a protoss air army to ever engage zerg without dying. Swarm hosts make it so templar support for storms is non-viable, and zerg just abducts the protoss to death. It's a really boring and lame game, but if you buff other anti-air, you're just going to see zerg waltz in and kill toss pretty much every time.
Think about what you said, you have just listed a need for infestation pit,spire and hive just to defend against a airtoss. Well for terran its barracks and toss a cyber core, plus add in the fact that marines and stalkers scale well from early-mid-late game. What you listed for us is only available in mid game, plus hydras really really dont scale well.
In the mid-game, hydra/infestor does very well. Zerg tech is easier to get than toss or terran tech is, you just make the one building and every hatch can make your tech. You only need that huge anti-air comp for the end game toss army. For the mid-game, hydra/infestor does fantastic vs. void rays. Earlier on, queens do extremely well. The matchup is quite balanced right now, I don't understand the complaints.
You are assuming all zerg wants to do is defend. Early on , Queens cant do shit with how slow they walk. Why shouldnt zerg have a viable attack AND defend option early on? And please, hydra/infestor get shit on well by protosses who have the brains to build colossus.
Um, if the toss is going colossus, why do you need anti-air? I was assuming you were referring to dealing with heavy void ray builds, but those don't seem to be nearly as strong these days, and zergs are crushing them left and right in proleague and GSL. Zergs have plenty of viable attacks, ranging from roach/hydra aggression to the leenock style heavy upgrade ling/ultra busts etc., or even the mutalisk switches and pressure.
If you want to attack any time you feel like it and have it always work, I don't know what to tell you. Protoss should absolutely have ways of defending aggression from zerg, and it has to be some kind of tech because zerg production is massive in comparison to protoss production.
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning...
Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink. This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO... Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about. I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2?
I've tried all sorts of builds I want to work in this game, many of them don't work. I don't come in here whining about not being able to go only stargate units in PvT or only make units out of the robotics facility. I don't recall zergs complaining about not being able to reliably go ONLY zerglings in ZvP. Some things work, some don't. Just because it's your preferred playstyle does not mean it must be balanced against the entire enemy race. I don't get to go carriers, as much as I want that to be viable.
I get that you like mech and want to play it, and that it's fun for you. However, it is not a balance issue that mech does not work vs. protoss. It is gripe you have about the way the race works yes, but complaining that it is unfair that mech doesn't work is like protoss complaining that mass carriers doesn't work.
If you want mech to work vs. protoss with approximately the same strength as bio, either bio needs to be weakened a little, or protoss needs to be strengthened a little somewhere else. You cannot add options to one race without increasing its strength: the very option existing is a buff.
Well, going only Stargate units in PvT is absolutely viable if the Terran plays mech. Opening with oracles,into voids or Phoenix with 2 base PO is posible. If the T goes BIO, you are dead, but this doesn mean you can compair going full Stargate,full Robo or Mass lings with going mech. MECH are Wm,Hellions,Hellbats,Tanks,Thors,Banshees,Ravens and even BCs or Medivacs(I use then to drop WM or HEllbats). Are you really gonna tell me all this units are the same as "mass lings"? Mech is a Style. You cant go mass carriers vs BIO Terran, but they shred everything if the Terran goes mech and allows you to mass them. Actually Protoss anti mech options are so many and so strong that its almost imposible to win and you only need to amove your Immortal/Archon/Collosi army into 15 presieged tanks. You call this "NORMAL"? The entire Protoss army for SC2 is designed to shut mech pretty hard: Charge to get quickly closer to siege lines.Blink doing the same.Collosi helping from behind,IMMORTALS shredding everything. Archons,Oracles,Void Rays...You need more?
So what you're saying is, if the terran voluntarily lets me do it, I can do whatever I want? Thanks for the tautology.
On February 01 2014 17:02 Tresher wrote:
On February 01 2014 16:44 Whitewing wrote:
On February 01 2014 16:38 Dvriel wrote:
On February 01 2014 10:58 Musicus wrote:
On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:
On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote: I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning...
Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink. This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO... Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about. I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2?
I've tried all sorts of builds I want to work in this game, many of them don't work. I don't come in here whining about not being able to go only stargate units in PvT or only make units out of the robotics facility. I don't recall zergs complaining about not being able to reliably go ONLY zerglings in ZvP. Some things work, some don't. Just because it's your preferred playstyle does not mean it must be balanced against the entire enemy race. I don't get to go carriers, as much as I want that to be viable.
I get that you like mech and want to play it, and that it's fun for you. However, it is not a balance issue that mech does not work vs. protoss. It is gripe you have about the way the race works yes, but complaining that it is unfair that mech doesn't work is like protoss complaining that mass carriers doesn't work.
If you want mech to work vs. protoss with approximately the same strength as bio, either bio needs to be weakened a little, or protoss needs to be strengthened a little somewhere else. You cannot add options to one race without increasing its strength: the very option existing is a buff.
Stopped reading at the bolded part. Cant believe people still dont get it that going Bio OR Mech is a unique thing to the Terran race just like Zerg can mass/swarm Units and Protoss has few but strong Units. Obviously never played BW.
LoL. "Its Avilo"... Nice way to discuss,huh? Who are you man? Mvp or maybe Polt with a name for TL? Avilo at least try mech. He is not a balance whiner. He is the only man saying the real f.... true about SC2. None of the Progamers dare to even say what are they really thinking and you disrespect him so easily...We are talking about mech and you are saying "marines are dangerous and quick." COME ON, PLEASE, REALLY??? WTF? Can you show me a single VOD or BO when Terran is aggressive in early game TvP¿???? When was the last time Protoss Progamer lost PvT at 7:30 min mark???? WHEN? Blink all in forcé "certain adaptations"??? Have you ever played Terran, please? Come on, try it man and let me see your face, with 4 bunkers in Deadalus or Heavy Rain, stim,shields,medivacs and+1 at 7 mins while the blink all in is at your ramp.3 mins later you go out and discover the Protoss got doublé forge,robo,Nexus mining and fully saturated in the natural, you try to drop WHILE attacking the natural, the PO is casted on both nexi and you need to go home, trying to expand to catch the Protoss finishig his Storm and 3-3 at 14 min.After all this I wanna see you winning without pulling SCVs OR going MECH hehe. Please,THINK BEFORE YOU WRITE
I fully agree here. Sad thing is when you posted that the guy below you just made the same useless "lol its avilo" argument. He may overreact sometimes but some things are really clever and true.
So you stopped reading and didn't bother to finish the rest of the argument. That's like someone saying "The world isn't flat, it's round, let me explain how we know..." And you stop reading after "The world isn't flat" because it doesn't fit your preconceptions. It also isn't exactly very helpful to any sort of discussion to read 2 sentences and then declare "I don't agree, I'm not reading the rest." That adds absolutely nothing.
In BW, terran could not viably go bio in TvP except for some weird wonky all-in builds. It wasn't really a choice, the only matchup where bio was consistently viable for them was TvZ. It wasn't a choice then either. If you went bio in TvP, you pretty much lost the moment reavers hit the field.
What I am saying is IF Terran decides to go MECH YOU WILL BE ABLE TO MASS CARRIERS. Terran need to turtle on 3 bases to secure 6 gases to be able to upgrade as well as you with two armories and research at least Blue Flame for HEllbats,make ghosts with Moebius and cloak upgrade,as well as banshees and Ravens with their upgrades. Can you add all this to turrets and Sensor towers to prevent DTs and Warp Prism drops in the main and try to calculate the gas required.
And what I'm saying is that Terran has to choose to allow me to do it. If Zerg decides to go up to 100 drones before making units, I can go 3 nexus before gateway. That does not mean it's always viable regardless of what my opponent chooses to do, like people seem to want mech to be. Some strategies simply are weaker than others, or have vulnerabilities that others don't. And that's a good thing. Imagine, for a moment, if carrier rushing was viable in every matchup against every build regardless of what the opponent did. Wouldn't that suck?
QXC did a good job of explaining this in a video a while back: if both bio and mech are always viable options and both are always very strong choices, protoss is pretty much fucked.
On February 01 2014 16:48 SC2Toastie wrote: Oracles at the top level disappear indeed. The reason is what you don''t seem to recognise: Terrans have adapted their builds to hold oracles easilly. BUT that also means builds cannot be aggressive because you need marines at home. That also means you need to invest in defence infrastructure before you can even know whether you need it or not. The mere precence of the oracle forces adaptations -> just as the Tempest completely disables the Battle Cruiser from really working without mass raven support.
Protoss builds have been changed to adapt to many things terrans can do as well. Old protoss builds like the 1 colossus, take a third, go straight to templar is completely dead. Protoss can't have map control when medivacs are coming out around the 10 minute mark, no matter how badly we want it. There are times when toss can't be aggressive, and there are times when terran can't be aggressive. If terran can be aggressive whenever it wants regardless of what build toss attempts, do you really think that would be reasonable or fair?
The safest build that exists in PvT for Protoss is the Rain build, where he invests in a freaking cannon early on in his mineral lines in case of mine drops, even without knowing whether one is coming or not. If you play greedier than that, you can outright die to mines. Is it unfair that protoss has to account for detection early on in the game or else risk dying to mines? Cloak banshees disappeared because protoss is forced to open detection almost every game. Hero (CJ entus one) died in a proleague match a short while ago vs. Maru because he skipped detection and got killed by cloak banshees. So Protoss adapted to those threats and now opens robo every game, or oracle (which also detects). If nothing cloaked shows up, oh well, we make do with what we have.
It's not simply terran who is forced to do certain things because of their opponent's options. You make it sound like protoss can do literally anything it wants at any time, that is absolutely not the case.
Banshee did not disappear because of Protoss going for detection every game. They are gone because of the 13 ranged Planetary NExus,man. You are affraind of WM drops? How many PvTs end before 10 mins with Terran win? Oh, one game in the last two years? Really?Oracle not only detecs, but also can kill a mínimum of FOUR workers and escape without dying,whle able to detect home and kill the WM.The WM drop means the T is going 1-1-1 and this is only one of the two builds Terran can go vs P.Now lets see how many does P got??? Terran are able to be aggressive ONLY when Medivacs are out and if their banshee or WM drop does not do enough damage, they got miles behind because of the investment.Protoss can Oracle,DT w/o Warp Prism and blink and still can expand.The difference is that Protoss can be aggerssive from the minute 4 sending a Zealot,MScore Stalker poke while Terran cant even rsik to go up the ramp...
Banshees with cloak stopped showing up because protoss always has detection. Nexus cannon means nothing if you can't detect the cloaked banshee, and they even made cloak cheaper. It's purely the fact that protoss adapted to the threats and gets detection every game. We've seen from games like that CJ_Hero vs. Maru game where Maru flat out killed him with cloaked banshees that if you skip detection you die to it. The cannon has absolutely nothing to do with it. Oh, and a one base oracle build getting only 4 workers actually puts the protoss behind, so there goes that argument. Stuff protoss does costs money too bro, it's not free. It's all an investment. In ZvT, once speed finishes, zerg gets a nice long while to have map control, and there's pretty much nothing terran can do about it until medivacs are out. It's NORMAL for a race to have timings where they can't really be aggressive. This argument is silly.
Protoss "adapted"???
You now have a unit that can be macro opened with out of a proxy Stargate that is guaranteed to get kills unless you fuck up, which doubles as a detector.
What are you going to come up with next, Protoss "adapted" to Reaper aggression by nerfing the Reaper and getting PO?
I'm sorry, what? Let me ask you this, given the investment in a stargate, an oracle, and the timings involved that require a delayed expansion, and the delayed robo tech and upgrades from forges, exactly how many kills does an oracle need to get to break even compared to a simple 1 gate expand into robo + double forge? And it's absolutely not guaranteed to get kills, I've seen pro games where the oracle flies in, runs smack into a bunch of marines and zooms out without a kill. I've seen oracles get 2-3 kills, I've seen games in proleague and GSL where an oracle flies in and just dies immediately. There is no guarantee.
I didn't say that a proxy Oracle that gets 3 kills puts you as ahead of the Terran as getting double forge, Psi Storm, and Colossus tech. I said that it's a macro opening. Which it is.
As for how many kills it gets, yeah, you're right, if the Protoss controls like crap and forgets that the Oracle can just leave the base and come back 30 seconds later from a different angle, it can get zero kills. But if they don't forget, then games like this happen.
On February 01 2014 17:08 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Even as a Zerg I don't support, nor do I understand the hydralisk buff. Seems like another example of Blizzard messing with something that isn't broken again...
ugh
On February 01 2014 16:48 ZenithM wrote: I don't know Kim...
fixed
Though I agree with you,You can't deny we need better anti-air though. And I meant a buff in strictly anti air
I don't agree, your anti-air is pretty powerful overall. Fungal + corrupter fleet + spores and vipers for abduct pretty much make it impossible for a protoss air army to ever engage zerg without dying. Swarm hosts make it so templar support for storms is non-viable, and zerg just abducts the protoss to death. It's a really boring and lame game, but if you buff other anti-air, you're just going to see zerg waltz in and kill toss pretty much every time.
Think about what you said, you have just listed a need for infestation pit,spire and hive just to defend against a airtoss. Well for terran its barracks and toss a cyber core, plus add in the fact that marines and stalkers scale well from early-mid-late game. What you listed for us is only available in mid game, plus hydras really really dont scale well.
In the mid-game, hydra/infestor does very well. Zerg tech is easier to get than toss or terran tech is, you just make the one building and every hatch can make your tech. You only need that huge anti-air comp for the end game toss army. For the mid-game, hydra/infestor does fantastic vs. void rays. Earlier on, queens do extremely well. The matchup is quite balanced right now, I don't understand the complaints.
You are assuming all zerg wants to do is defend. Early on , Queens cant do shit with how slow they walk. Why shouldnt zerg have a viable attack AND defend option early on? And please, hydra/infestor get shit on well by protosses who have the brains to build colossus.
Um, if the toss is going colossus, why do you need anti-air? I was assuming you were referring to dealing with heavy void ray builds, but those don't seem to be nearly as strong these days, and zergs are crushing them left and right in proleague and GSL. Zergs have plenty of viable attacks, ranging from roach/hydra aggression to the leenock style heavy upgrade ling/ultra busts etc., or even the mutalisk switches and pressure.
Read my edit, i wasn't finished. And your "viable attacks" are only avaliable during midgame-late game. If roach hydra is used in early game, its an all in. And not a protoss "all in" but a all in that if failed means a lost.
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning...
Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink. This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO... Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about. I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2?
I've tried all sorts of builds I want to work in this game, many of them don't work. I don't come in here whining about not being able to go only stargate units in PvT or only make units out of the robotics facility. I don't recall zergs complaining about not being able to reliably go ONLY zerglings in ZvP. Some things work, some don't. Just because it's your preferred playstyle does not mean it must be balanced against the entire enemy race. I don't get to go carriers, as much as I want that to be viable.
I get that you like mech and want to play it, and that it's fun for you. However, it is not a balance issue that mech does not work vs. protoss. It is gripe you have about the way the race works yes, but complaining that it is unfair that mech doesn't work is like protoss complaining that mass carriers doesn't work.
If you want mech to work vs. protoss with approximately the same strength as bio, either bio needs to be weakened a little, or protoss needs to be strengthened a little somewhere else. You cannot add options to one race without increasing its strength: the very option existing is a buff.
Well, going only Stargate units in PvT is absolutely viable if the Terran plays mech. Opening with oracles,into voids or Phoenix with 2 base PO is posible. If the T goes BIO, you are dead, but this doesn mean you can compair going full Stargate,full Robo or Mass lings with going mech. MECH are Wm,Hellions,Hellbats,Tanks,Thors,Banshees,Ravens and even BCs or Medivacs(I use then to drop WM or HEllbats). Are you really gonna tell me all this units are the same as "mass lings"? Mech is a Style. You cant go mass carriers vs BIO Terran, but they shred everything if the Terran goes mech and allows you to mass them. Actually Protoss anti mech options are so many and so strong that its almost imposible to win and you only need to amove your Immortal/Archon/Collosi army into 15 presieged tanks. You call this "NORMAL"? The entire Protoss army for SC2 is designed to shut mech pretty hard: Charge to get quickly closer to siege lines.Blink doing the same.Collosi helping from behind,IMMORTALS shredding everything. Archons,Oracles,Void Rays...You need more?
So what you're saying is, if the terran voluntarily lets me do it, I can do whatever I want? Thanks for the tautology.
On February 01 2014 17:02 Tresher wrote:
On February 01 2014 16:44 Whitewing wrote:
On February 01 2014 16:38 Dvriel wrote:
On February 01 2014 10:58 Musicus wrote:
On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:
On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote: I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning...
Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink. This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO... Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about. I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2?
I've tried all sorts of builds I want to work in this game, many of them don't work. I don't come in here whining about not being able to go only stargate units in PvT or only make units out of the robotics facility. I don't recall zergs complaining about not being able to reliably go ONLY zerglings in ZvP. Some things work, some don't. Just because it's your preferred playstyle does not mean it must be balanced against the entire enemy race. I don't get to go carriers, as much as I want that to be viable.
I get that you like mech and want to play it, and that it's fun for you. However, it is not a balance issue that mech does not work vs. protoss. It is gripe you have about the way the race works yes, but complaining that it is unfair that mech doesn't work is like protoss complaining that mass carriers doesn't work.
If you want mech to work vs. protoss with approximately the same strength as bio, either bio needs to be weakened a little, or protoss needs to be strengthened a little somewhere else. You cannot add options to one race without increasing its strength: the very option existing is a buff.
Stopped reading at the bolded part. Cant believe people still dont get it that going Bio OR Mech is a unique thing to the Terran race just like Zerg can mass/swarm Units and Protoss has few but strong Units. Obviously never played BW.
LoL. "Its Avilo"... Nice way to discuss,huh? Who are you man? Mvp or maybe Polt with a name for TL? Avilo at least try mech. He is not a balance whiner. He is the only man saying the real f.... true about SC2. None of the Progamers dare to even say what are they really thinking and you disrespect him so easily...We are talking about mech and you are saying "marines are dangerous and quick." COME ON, PLEASE, REALLY??? WTF? Can you show me a single VOD or BO when Terran is aggressive in early game TvP¿???? When was the last time Protoss Progamer lost PvT at 7:30 min mark???? WHEN? Blink all in forcé "certain adaptations"??? Have you ever played Terran, please? Come on, try it man and let me see your face, with 4 bunkers in Deadalus or Heavy Rain, stim,shields,medivacs and+1 at 7 mins while the blink all in is at your ramp.3 mins later you go out and discover the Protoss got doublé forge,robo,Nexus mining and fully saturated in the natural, you try to drop WHILE attacking the natural, the PO is casted on both nexi and you need to go home, trying to expand to catch the Protoss finishig his Storm and 3-3 at 14 min.After all this I wanna see you winning without pulling SCVs OR going MECH hehe. Please,THINK BEFORE YOU WRITE
I fully agree here. Sad thing is when you posted that the guy below you just made the same useless "lol its avilo" argument. He may overreact sometimes but some things are really clever and true.
So you stopped reading and didn't bother to finish the rest of the argument. That's like someone saying "The world isn't flat, it's round, let me explain how we know..." And you stop reading after "The world isn't flat" because it doesn't fit your preconceptions. It also isn't exactly very helpful to any sort of discussion to read 2 sentences and then declare "I don't agree, I'm not reading the rest." That adds absolutely nothing.
In BW, terran could not viably go bio in TvP except for some weird wonky all-in builds. It wasn't really a choice, the only matchup where bio was consistently viable for them was TvZ. It wasn't a choice then either. If you went bio in TvP, you pretty much lost the moment reavers hit the field.
What I am saying is IF Terran decides to go MECH YOU WILL BE ABLE TO MASS CARRIERS. Terran need to turtle on 3 bases to secure 6 gases to be able to upgrade as well as you with two armories and research at least Blue Flame for HEllbats,make ghosts with Moebius and cloak upgrade,as well as banshees and Ravens with their upgrades. Can you add all this to turrets and Sensor towers to prevent DTs and Warp Prism drops in the main and try to calculate the gas required.
And what I'm saying is that Terran has to choose to allow me to do it. If Zerg decides to go up to 100 drones before making units, I can go 3 nexus before gateway. That does not mean it's always viable regardless of what my opponent chooses to do, like people seem to want mech to be. Some strategies simply are weaker than others, or have vulnerabilities that others don't. And that's a good thing. Imagine, for a moment, if carrier rushing was viable in every matchup against every build regardless of what the opponent did. Wouldn't that suck?
QXC did a good job of explaining this in a video a while back: if both bio and mech are always viable options and both are always very strong choices, protoss is pretty much fucked.
On February 01 2014 17:16 pure.Wasted wrote:
On February 01 2014 17:14 Whitewing wrote:
On February 01 2014 17:09 Dvriel wrote:
On February 01 2014 16:53 Whitewing wrote:
On February 01 2014 16:48 SC2Toastie wrote: Oracles at the top level disappear indeed. The reason is what you don''t seem to recognise: Terrans have adapted their builds to hold oracles easilly. BUT that also means builds cannot be aggressive because you need marines at home. That also means you need to invest in defence infrastructure before you can even know whether you need it or not. The mere precence of the oracle forces adaptations -> just as the Tempest completely disables the Battle Cruiser from really working without mass raven support.
Protoss builds have been changed to adapt to many things terrans can do as well. Old protoss builds like the 1 colossus, take a third, go straight to templar is completely dead. Protoss can't have map control when medivacs are coming out around the 10 minute mark, no matter how badly we want it. There are times when toss can't be aggressive, and there are times when terran can't be aggressive. If terran can be aggressive whenever it wants regardless of what build toss attempts, do you really think that would be reasonable or fair?
The safest build that exists in PvT for Protoss is the Rain build, where he invests in a freaking cannon early on in his mineral lines in case of mine drops, even without knowing whether one is coming or not. If you play greedier than that, you can outright die to mines. Is it unfair that protoss has to account for detection early on in the game or else risk dying to mines? Cloak banshees disappeared because protoss is forced to open detection almost every game. Hero (CJ entus one) died in a proleague match a short while ago vs. Maru because he skipped detection and got killed by cloak banshees. So Protoss adapted to those threats and now opens robo every game, or oracle (which also detects). If nothing cloaked shows up, oh well, we make do with what we have.
It's not simply terran who is forced to do certain things because of their opponent's options. You make it sound like protoss can do literally anything it wants at any time, that is absolutely not the case.
Banshee did not disappear because of Protoss going for detection every game. They are gone because of the 13 ranged Planetary NExus,man. You are affraind of WM drops? How many PvTs end before 10 mins with Terran win? Oh, one game in the last two years? Really?Oracle not only detecs, but also can kill a mínimum of FOUR workers and escape without dying,whle able to detect home and kill the WM.The WM drop means the T is going 1-1-1 and this is only one of the two builds Terran can go vs P.Now lets see how many does P got??? Terran are able to be aggressive ONLY when Medivacs are out and if their banshee or WM drop does not do enough damage, they got miles behind because of the investment.Protoss can Oracle,DT w/o Warp Prism and blink and still can expand.The difference is that Protoss can be aggerssive from the minute 4 sending a Zealot,MScore Stalker poke while Terran cant even rsik to go up the ramp...
Banshees with cloak stopped showing up because protoss always has detection. Nexus cannon means nothing if you can't detect the cloaked banshee, and they even made cloak cheaper. It's purely the fact that protoss adapted to the threats and gets detection every game. We've seen from games like that CJ_Hero vs. Maru game where Maru flat out killed him with cloaked banshees that if you skip detection you die to it. The cannon has absolutely nothing to do with it. Oh, and a one base oracle build getting only 4 workers actually puts the protoss behind, so there goes that argument. Stuff protoss does costs money too bro, it's not free. It's all an investment. In ZvT, once speed finishes, zerg gets a nice long while to have map control, and there's pretty much nothing terran can do about it until medivacs are out. It's NORMAL for a race to have timings where they can't really be aggressive. This argument is silly.
Protoss "adapted"???
You now have a unit that can be macro opened with out of a proxy Stargate that is guaranteed to get kills unless you fuck up, which doubles as a detector.
What are you going to come up with next, Protoss "adapted" to Reaper aggression by nerfing the Reaper and getting PO?
I'm sorry, what? Let me ask you this, given the investment in a stargate, an oracle, and the timings involved that require a delayed expansion, and the delayed robo tech and upgrades from forges, exactly how many kills does an oracle need to get to break even compared to a simple 1 gate expand into robo + double forge? And it's absolutely not guaranteed to get kills, I've seen pro games where the oracle flies in, runs smack into a bunch of marines and zooms out without a kill. I've seen oracles get 2-3 kills, I've seen games in proleague and GSL where an oracle flies in and just dies immediately. There is no guarantee.
I didn't say that a proxy Oracle that gets 3 kills puts you as ahead of the Terran as getting double forge, Psi Storm, and Colossus tech. I said that it's a macro opening. Which it is.
As for how many kills it gets, yeah, you're right, if the Protoss controls like crap and forgets that the Oracle can just leave the base and come back 30 seconds later from a different angle, it can get zero kills. But if they don't forget, then games like this happen.
Really? You're going to point to a game where keen got behind from a proxy gate in his main that he failed to scout as evidence that proxy oracle is broken? Oh, he then, despite scouting his opponent's main with 2 reapers, and seeing no tech or expansion, decided to build a reactor and expansion simultaneously and therefore had no units to defend the oracle?
Keen played absurdly greedy and ignored the info from scouting. The complete lack of tech in the main and no expansion should have been a huge tell.
On February 01 2014 17:08 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Even as a Zerg I don't support, nor do I understand the hydralisk buff. Seems like another example of Blizzard messing with something that isn't broken again...
ugh
On February 01 2014 16:48 ZenithM wrote: I don't know Kim...
fixed
Though I agree with you,You can't deny we need better anti-air though. And I meant a buff in strictly anti air
I don't agree, your anti-air is pretty powerful overall. Fungal + corrupter fleet + spores and vipers for abduct pretty much make it impossible for a protoss air army to ever engage zerg without dying. Swarm hosts make it so templar support for storms is non-viable, and zerg just abducts the protoss to death. It's a really boring and lame game, but if you buff other anti-air, you're just going to see zerg waltz in and kill toss pretty much every time.
Think about what you said, you have just listed a need for infestation pit,spire and hive just to defend against a airtoss. Well for terran its barracks and toss a cyber core, plus add in the fact that marines and stalkers scale well from early-mid-late game. What you listed for us is only available in mid game, plus hydras really really dont scale well.
In the mid-game, hydra/infestor does very well. Zerg tech is easier to get than toss or terran tech is, you just make the one building and every hatch can make your tech. You only need that huge anti-air comp for the end game toss army. For the mid-game, hydra/infestor does fantastic vs. void rays. Earlier on, queens do extremely well. The matchup is quite balanced right now, I don't understand the complaints.
You are assuming all zerg wants to do is defend. Early on , Queens cant do shit with how slow they walk. Why shouldnt zerg have a viable attack AND defend option early on? And please, hydra/infestor get shit on well by protosses who have the brains to build colossus.
Um, if the toss is going colossus, why do you need anti-air? I was assuming you were referring to dealing with heavy void ray builds, but those don't seem to be nearly as strong these days, and zergs are crushing them left and right in proleague and GSL. Zergs have plenty of viable attacks, ranging from roach/hydra aggression to the leenock style heavy upgrade ling/ultra busts etc., or even the mutalisk switches and pressure.
Read my edit, i wasn't finished. And your "viable attacks" are only avaliable during midgame-late game. If roach hydra is used in early game, its an all in. And not a protoss "all in" but a all in that if failed means a lost.
Protoss all-ins are absolutely all-in. That's the freaking definition. Putting quotation marks around it doesn't change the fact. If it's not all-in, then it's just pressure. If it's all-in, then when it fails you lose. If I do an 8 gate all-in off 2 bases and you hold it without losing a base or drones, I just plain die. That's an all-in. If I do a 4 gate +1 pressure and fail to snipe your third, I'm behind, but not dead, it was not an all-in.
You have other attacks too you can do at all phases of the game. Plenty of protoss losses occur to mass speedling all-ins busting the wall, or big mutalisk switches that flat out kill nexii.
On February 01 2014 17:08 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Even as a Zerg I don't support, nor do I understand the hydralisk buff. Seems like another example of Blizzard messing with something that isn't broken again...
ugh
On February 01 2014 16:48 ZenithM wrote: I don't know Kim...
fixed
Though I agree with you,You can't deny we need better anti-air though. And I meant a buff in strictly anti air
I don't agree, your anti-air is pretty powerful overall. Fungal + corrupter fleet + spores and vipers for abduct pretty much make it impossible for a protoss air army to ever engage zerg without dying. Swarm hosts make it so templar support for storms is non-viable, and zerg just abducts the protoss to death. It's a really boring and lame game, but if you buff other anti-air, you're just going to see zerg waltz in and kill toss pretty much every time.
Think about what you said, you have just listed a need for infestation pit,spire and hive just to defend against a airtoss. Well for terran its barracks and toss a cyber core, plus add in the fact that marines and stalkers scale well from early-mid-late game. What you listed for us is only available in mid game, plus hydras really really dont scale well.
In the mid-game, hydra/infestor does very well. Zerg tech is easier to get than toss or terran tech is, you just make the one building and every hatch can make your tech. You only need that huge anti-air comp for the end game toss army. For the mid-game, hydra/infestor does fantastic vs. void rays. Earlier on, queens do extremely well. The matchup is quite balanced right now, I don't understand the complaints.
You are assuming all zerg wants to do is defend. Early on , Queens cant do shit with how slow they walk. Why shouldnt zerg have a viable attack AND defend option early on? And please, hydra/infestor get shit on well by protosses who have the brains to build colossus.
If you want to attack any time you feel like it and have it always work, I don't know what to tell you. Protoss should absolutely have ways of defending aggression from zerg, and it has to be some kind of tech because zerg production is massive in comparison to protoss production.
yes but not to the point that a toss player can just go "oh he is attacking me, PHOTONNNNNNNN or FORCEFIELDDDDD". But rather if a toss defends he must SCOUT for it. Terran have to scout, zergs have to scout, why shouldnt toss?Toss is stupid to play against because of this mechanic where it can defend or attack in an instant if it choose to by warp ins.
On February 01 2014 17:08 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Even as a Zerg I don't support, nor do I understand the hydralisk buff. Seems like another example of Blizzard messing with something that isn't broken again...
ugh
On February 01 2014 16:48 ZenithM wrote: I don't know Kim...
fixed
Though I agree with you,You can't deny we need better anti-air though. And I meant a buff in strictly anti air
I don't agree, your anti-air is pretty powerful overall. Fungal + corrupter fleet + spores and vipers for abduct pretty much make it impossible for a protoss air army to ever engage zerg without dying. Swarm hosts make it so templar support for storms is non-viable, and zerg just abducts the protoss to death. It's a really boring and lame game, but if you buff other anti-air, you're just going to see zerg waltz in and kill toss pretty much every time.
Think about what you said, you have just listed a need for infestation pit,spire and hive just to defend against a airtoss. Well for terran its barracks and toss a cyber core, plus add in the fact that marines and stalkers scale well from early-mid-late game. What you listed for us is only available in mid game, plus hydras really really dont scale well.
In the mid-game, hydra/infestor does very well. Zerg tech is easier to get than toss or terran tech is, you just make the one building and every hatch can make your tech. You only need that huge anti-air comp for the end game toss army. For the mid-game, hydra/infestor does fantastic vs. void rays. Earlier on, queens do extremely well. The matchup is quite balanced right now, I don't understand the complaints.
You are assuming all zerg wants to do is defend. Early on , Queens cant do shit with how slow they walk. Why shouldnt zerg have a viable attack AND defend option early on? And please, hydra/infestor get shit on well by protosses who have the brains to build colossus.
If you want to attack any time you feel like it and have it always work, I don't know what to tell you. Protoss should absolutely have ways of defending aggression from zerg, and it has to be some kind of tech because zerg production is massive in comparison to protoss production.
yes but not to the point that a toss player can just go "oh he is attacking me, PHOTONNNNNNNN or FORCEFIELDDDDD". But rather if a toss defends he must SCOUT for it. Terran have to scout, zergs have to scout, why shouldnt toss?Toss is stupid to play against because of this mechanic where it can defend or attack in an instant if it choose to by warp ins.
So now your complaint isn't the fact that zerg can't attack, but actually the way protoss defends those attacks. So to get to the root of your complaint, it's that forcefields exist. Photon Overcharge is pretty bad overall vs. most zerg attacks, roaches have too much hp for it to be particularly helpful, mutas just go to a different base, and there are too many lings for it to kill them. It's only stalling with forcefields that lets the damage from it add up to anything significant.
[/QUOTE]Protoss all-ins are absolutely all-in. That's the freaking definition. Putting quotation marks around it doesn't change the fact. If it's not all-in, then it's just pressure. If it's all-in, then when it fails you lose. If I do an 8 gate all-in off 2 bases and you hold it without losing a base or drones, I just plain die. That's an all-in. If I do a 4 gate +1 pressure and fail to snipe your third, I'm behind, but not dead, it was not an all-in.
You have other attacks too you can do at all phases of the game. Plenty of protoss losses occur to mass speedling all-ins busting the wall, or big mutalisk switches that flat out kill nexii.[/QUOTE] You havent seen gsl games where a toss "all ins" but ends up not being an all in? Have you not listen to casters? The problem with toss is its so easy to come back after a supposed "all in" with the photon overcharge and forcefields. 3 sentries can ff a ramp until the game ends. Zergs LOSE because of the counter attacks that happened after an all in and they can't defend it. Toss CAN. This is what terrans are whining about now, and if terrans with their mules are complaining about toss come backs after all ins then you know shit is going down.
So stop saying zergs all ins are like toss cause we cant do shit about counters after we failed an all in.
They honestly should make MSC be extremely slow away from a nexus similar to the queen on creep. That unit should 100% be extremely risky to use offensively.
On February 01 2014 17:46 Talack wrote: They honestly should make MSC be extremely slow away from a nexus similar to the queen on creep. That unit should 100% be extremely risky to use offensively.
Thank you! Finally something non-bias. Either both terran and zergs need more options where attack AND defends exist, or toss should have some taken away.
On February 01 2014 17:45 Whitewing wrote: Protoss all-ins are absolutely all-in. That's the freaking definition. Putting quotation marks around it doesn't change the fact. If it's not all-in, then it's just pressure. If it's all-in, then when it fails you lose. If I do an 8 gate all-in off 2 bases and you hold it without losing a base or drones, I just plain die. That's an all-in. If I do a 4 gate +1 pressure and fail to snipe your third, I'm behind, but not dead, it was not an all-in.
You have other attacks too you can do at all phases of the game. Plenty of protoss losses occur to mass speedling all-ins busting the wall, or big mutalisk switches that flat out kill nexii.
You havent seen gsl games where a toss "all ins" but ends up not being an all in? Have you not listen to casters? The problem with toss is its so easy to come back after a supposed "all in" with the photon overcharge and forcefields. 3 sentries can ff a ramp until the game ends. Zergs LOSE because of the counter attacks that happened after an all in and they can't defend it. Toss CAN. This is what terrans are whining about now, and if terrans with their mules are complaining about toss come backs after all ins then you know shit is going down.
So stop saying zergs all ins are like toss cause we cant do shit about counters after we failed an all in.
Um, the casters are usually just wrong. Had that thought occurred to you? Just because they call it an all-in doesn't make it one.
So what I'm hearing is: Toss shouldn't be able to defend attacks with forcefields, toss should not be able to make comebacks at all, toss should not be able to engage in base trades with zerg at all or split their army whatsoever and defend counter attacks.
Protoss literally cannot have as many units as zerg can until the lategame. They just can't. The way production works and the costs of the units, and the fact that zerg is up a base combines to mean that protoss has to be able to engage more efficiently than zerg or it can never win. That means it needs some kind of skill or trick, or simply vastly more powerful units to be able to deal with being outnumbered. If you decide to park a bunch of speedlings outside the toss base, that protoss can literally never move out unless he can defend the counter attack. If you take away Forcefields and photon overcharge, you've made it so that protoss can never attack ever.
And um, if you all-in as toss, and your opponent holds it, the correct action is not to immediately counter all-in the protoss.
On February 01 2014 17:46 Talack wrote: They honestly should make MSC be extremely slow away from a nexus similar to the queen on creep. That unit should 100% be extremely risky to use offensively.
Thank you! Finally something non-bias. Either both terran and zergs need more options where attack AND defends exist, or toss should have some taken away.
The act of agreeing with you is not the definition of non-bias. Everyone has a bias, I have a bias, you have a bias.
I'm not saying protoss doesn't necessarily need a nerf somewhere, I think the msc vision should be nerfed, it's just silly. But there is no change to PvZ needed whatsoever from a balance perspective.
Protoss all-ins are absolutely all-in. That's the freaking definition. Putting quotation marks around it doesn't change the fact. If it's not all-in, then it's just pressure. If it's all-in, then when it fails you lose. If I do an 8 gate all-in off 2 bases and you hold it without losing a base or drones, I just plain die. That's an all-in. If I do a 4 gate +1 pressure and fail to snipe your third, I'm behind, but not dead, it was not an all-in.
You have other attacks too you can do at all phases of the game. Plenty of protoss losses occur to mass speedling all-ins busting the wall, or big mutalisk switches that flat out kill nexii.
You havent seen gsl games where a toss "all ins" but ends up not being an all in? Have you not listen to casters? The problem with toss is its so easy to come back after a supposed "all in" with the photon overcharge and forcefields. 3 sentries can ff a ramp until the game ends. Zergs LOSE because of the counter attacks that happened after an all in and they can't defend it. Toss CAN. This is what terrans are whining about now, and if terrans with their mules are complaining about toss come backs after all ins then you know shit is going down.
So stop saying zergs all ins are like toss cause we cant do shit about counters after we failed an all in. [/QUOTE]
Um, the casters are usually just wrong. Had that thought occurred to you? Just because they call it an all-in doesn't make it one.
So what I'm hearing is: Toss shouldn't be able to defend attacks with forcefields, toss should not be able to make comebacks at all, toss should not be able to engage in base trades with zerg at all or split their army whatsoever and defend counter attacks.
And um, if you all-in as toss, and your opponent holds it, the correct action is not to immediately counter all-in the protoss.[/QUOTE] Now you are putting words in my mouth. What i am saying is, Toss should NOT have a high chance of survivng after an all in same as zergs/terran. Blizzard needs to fix this problem asap. And why should we not be able to immediately counter all- in the toss when they can just warp in after WE failed and kill our base? You are letting your bias show through.
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning...
Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink. This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO... Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about. I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2?
I've tried all sorts of builds I want to work in this game, many of them don't work. I don't come in here whining about not being able to go only stargate units in PvT or only make units out of the robotics facility. I don't recall zergs complaining about not being able to reliably go ONLY zerglings in ZvP. Some things work, some don't. Just because it's your preferred playstyle does not mean it must be balanced against the entire enemy race. I don't get to go carriers, as much as I want that to be viable.
I get that you like mech and want to play it, and that it's fun for you. However, it is not a balance issue that mech does not work vs. protoss. It is gripe you have about the way the race works yes, but complaining that it is unfair that mech doesn't work is like protoss complaining that mass carriers doesn't work.
If you want mech to work vs. protoss with approximately the same strength as bio, either bio needs to be weakened a little, or protoss needs to be strengthened a little somewhere else. You cannot add options to one race without increasing its strength: the very option existing is a buff.
Well, going only Stargate units in PvT is absolutely viable if the Terran plays mech. Opening with oracles,into voids or Phoenix with 2 base PO is posible. If the T goes BIO, you are dead, but this doesn mean you can compair going full Stargate,full Robo or Mass lings with going mech. MECH are Wm,Hellions,Hellbats,Tanks,Thors,Banshees,Ravens and even BCs or Medivacs(I use then to drop WM or HEllbats). Are you really gonna tell me all this units are the same as "mass lings"? Mech is a Style. You cant go mass carriers vs BIO Terran, but they shred everything if the Terran goes mech and allows you to mass them. Actually Protoss anti mech options are so many and so strong that its almost imposible to win and you only need to amove your Immortal/Archon/Collosi army into 15 presieged tanks. You call this "NORMAL"? The entire Protoss army for SC2 is designed to shut mech pretty hard: Charge to get quickly closer to siege lines.Blink doing the same.Collosi helping from behind,IMMORTALS shredding everything. Archons,Oracles,Void Rays...You need more?
So what you're saying is, if the terran voluntarily lets me do it, I can do whatever I want? Thanks for the tautology.
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning...
Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink. This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO... Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about. I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2?
I've tried all sorts of builds I want to work in this game, many of them don't work. I don't come in here whining about not being able to go only stargate units in PvT or only make units out of the robotics facility. I don't recall zergs complaining about not being able to reliably go ONLY zerglings in ZvP. Some things work, some don't. Just because it's your preferred playstyle does not mean it must be balanced against the entire enemy race. I don't get to go carriers, as much as I want that to be viable.
I get that you like mech and want to play it, and that it's fun for you. However, it is not a balance issue that mech does not work vs. protoss. It is gripe you have about the way the race works yes, but complaining that it is unfair that mech doesn't work is like protoss complaining that mass carriers doesn't work.
If you want mech to work vs. protoss with approximately the same strength as bio, either bio needs to be weakened a little, or protoss needs to be strengthened a little somewhere else. You cannot add options to one race without increasing its strength: the very option existing is a buff.
Stopped reading at the bolded part. Cant believe people still dont get it that going Bio OR Mech is a unique thing to the Terran race just like Zerg can mass/swarm Units and Protoss has few but strong Units. Obviously never played BW.
LoL. "Its Avilo"... Nice way to discuss,huh? Who are you man? Mvp or maybe Polt with a name for TL? Avilo at least try mech. He is not a balance whiner. He is the only man saying the real f.... true about SC2. None of the Progamers dare to even say what are they really thinking and you disrespect him so easily...We are talking about mech and you are saying "marines are dangerous and quick." COME ON, PLEASE, REALLY??? WTF? Can you show me a single VOD or BO when Terran is aggressive in early game TvP¿???? When was the last time Protoss Progamer lost PvT at 7:30 min mark???? WHEN? Blink all in forcé "certain adaptations"??? Have you ever played Terran, please? Come on, try it man and let me see your face, with 4 bunkers in Deadalus or Heavy Rain, stim,shields,medivacs and+1 at 7 mins while the blink all in is at your ramp.3 mins later you go out and discover the Protoss got doublé forge,robo,Nexus mining and fully saturated in the natural, you try to drop WHILE attacking the natural, the PO is casted on both nexi and you need to go home, trying to expand to catch the Protoss finishig his Storm and 3-3 at 14 min.After all this I wanna see you winning without pulling SCVs OR going MECH hehe. Please,THINK BEFORE YOU WRITE
I fully agree here. Sad thing is when you posted that the guy below you just made the same useless "lol its avilo" argument. He may overreact sometimes but some things are really clever and true.
So you stopped reading and didn't bother to finish the rest of the argument. That's like someone saying "The world isn't flat, it's round, let me explain how we know..." And you stop reading after "The world isn't flat" because it doesn't fit your preconceptions. It also isn't exactly very helpful to any sort of discussion to read 2 sentences and then declare "I don't agree, I'm not reading the rest." That adds absolutely nothing.
In BW, terran could not viably go bio in TvP except for some weird wonky all-in builds. It wasn't really a choice, the only matchup where bio was consistently viable for them was TvZ. It wasn't a choice then either. If you went bio in TvP, you pretty much lost the moment reavers hit the field.
What I am saying is IF Terran decides to go MECH YOU WILL BE ABLE TO MASS CARRIERS. Terran need to turtle on 3 bases to secure 6 gases to be able to upgrade as well as you with two armories and research at least Blue Flame for HEllbats,make ghosts with Moebius and cloak upgrade,as well as banshees and Ravens with their upgrades. Can you add all this to turrets and Sensor towers to prevent DTs and Warp Prism drops in the main and try to calculate the gas required.
And what I'm saying is that Terran has to choose to allow me to do it. If Zerg decides to go up to 100 drones before making units, I can go 3 nexus before gateway. That does not mean it's always viable regardless of what my opponent chooses to do, like people seem to want mech to be. Some strategies simply are weaker than others, or have vulnerabilities that others don't. And that's a good thing. Imagine, for a moment, if carrier rushing was viable in every matchup against every build regardless of what the opponent did. Wouldn't that suck?
QXC did a good job of explaining this in a video a while back: if both bio and mech are always viable options and both are always very strong choices, protoss is pretty much fucked.
On February 01 2014 17:16 pure.Wasted wrote:
On February 01 2014 17:14 Whitewing wrote:
On February 01 2014 17:09 Dvriel wrote:
On February 01 2014 16:53 Whitewing wrote:
On February 01 2014 16:48 SC2Toastie wrote: Oracles at the top level disappear indeed. The reason is what you don''t seem to recognise: Terrans have adapted their builds to hold oracles easilly. BUT that also means builds cannot be aggressive because you need marines at home. That also means you need to invest in defence infrastructure before you can even know whether you need it or not. The mere precence of the oracle forces adaptations -> just as the Tempest completely disables the Battle Cruiser from really working without mass raven support.
Protoss builds have been changed to adapt to many things terrans can do as well. Old protoss builds like the 1 colossus, take a third, go straight to templar is completely dead. Protoss can't have map control when medivacs are coming out around the 10 minute mark, no matter how badly we want it. There are times when toss can't be aggressive, and there are times when terran can't be aggressive. If terran can be aggressive whenever it wants regardless of what build toss attempts, do you really think that would be reasonable or fair?
The safest build that exists in PvT for Protoss is the Rain build, where he invests in a freaking cannon early on in his mineral lines in case of mine drops, even without knowing whether one is coming or not. If you play greedier than that, you can outright die to mines. Is it unfair that protoss has to account for detection early on in the game or else risk dying to mines? Cloak banshees disappeared because protoss is forced to open detection almost every game. Hero (CJ entus one) died in a proleague match a short while ago vs. Maru because he skipped detection and got killed by cloak banshees. So Protoss adapted to those threats and now opens robo every game, or oracle (which also detects). If nothing cloaked shows up, oh well, we make do with what we have.
It's not simply terran who is forced to do certain things because of their opponent's options. You make it sound like protoss can do literally anything it wants at any time, that is absolutely not the case.
Banshee did not disappear because of Protoss going for detection every game. They are gone because of the 13 ranged Planetary NExus,man. You are affraind of WM drops? How many PvTs end before 10 mins with Terran win? Oh, one game in the last two years? Really?Oracle not only detecs, but also can kill a mínimum of FOUR workers and escape without dying,whle able to detect home and kill the WM.The WM drop means the T is going 1-1-1 and this is only one of the two builds Terran can go vs P.Now lets see how many does P got??? Terran are able to be aggressive ONLY when Medivacs are out and if their banshee or WM drop does not do enough damage, they got miles behind because of the investment.Protoss can Oracle,DT w/o Warp Prism and blink and still can expand.The difference is that Protoss can be aggerssive from the minute 4 sending a Zealot,MScore Stalker poke while Terran cant even rsik to go up the ramp...
Banshees with cloak stopped showing up because protoss always has detection. Nexus cannon means nothing if you can't detect the cloaked banshee, and they even made cloak cheaper. It's purely the fact that protoss adapted to the threats and gets detection every game. We've seen from games like that CJ_Hero vs. Maru game where Maru flat out killed him with cloaked banshees that if you skip detection you die to it. The cannon has absolutely nothing to do with it. Oh, and a one base oracle build getting only 4 workers actually puts the protoss behind, so there goes that argument. Stuff protoss does costs money too bro, it's not free. It's all an investment. In ZvT, once speed finishes, zerg gets a nice long while to have map control, and there's pretty much nothing terran can do about it until medivacs are out. It's NORMAL for a race to have timings where they can't really be aggressive. This argument is silly.
Protoss "adapted"???
You now have a unit that can be macro opened with out of a proxy Stargate that is guaranteed to get kills unless you fuck up, which doubles as a detector.
What are you going to come up with next, Protoss "adapted" to Reaper aggression by nerfing the Reaper and getting PO?
I'm sorry, what? Let me ask you this, given the investment in a stargate, an oracle, and the timings involved that require a delayed expansion, and the delayed robo tech and upgrades from forges, exactly how many kills does an oracle need to get to break even compared to a simple 1 gate expand into robo + double forge? And it's absolutely not guaranteed to get kills, I've seen pro games where the oracle flies in, runs smack into a bunch of marines and zooms out without a kill. I've seen oracles get 2-3 kills, I've seen games in proleague and GSL where an oracle flies in and just dies immediately. There is no guarantee.
I didn't say that a proxy Oracle that gets 3 kills puts you as ahead of the Terran as getting double forge, Psi Storm, and Colossus tech. I said that it's a macro opening. Which it is.
As for how many kills it gets, yeah, you're right, if the Protoss controls like crap and forgets that the Oracle can just leave the base and come back 30 seconds later from a different angle, it can get zero kills. But if they don't forget, then games like this happen.
Really? You're going to point to a game where keen got behind from a proxy gate in his main that he failed to scout as evidence that proxy oracle is broken? Oh, he then, despite scouting his opponent's main with 2 reapers, and seeing no tech or expansion, decided to build a reactor and expansion simultaneously and therefore had no units to defend the oracle?
Keen played absurdly greedy and ignored the info from scouting. The complete lack of tech in the main and no expansion should have been a huge tell.
I didn't bring that game up as evidence of Protoss being broken. I brought that game up as evidence of what Oracles are capable of when Protoss don't just throw them away, but instead use them throughout the entirety of a game. They deal MASSIVE damage to economies. The Terran's not going to have 5 Marines in each of his mineral lines, and even if he does, you can just park the production facilities and pick up free kills that way.
I wrote a lengthy, more general response to you on the last page, that I think you didn't see. This is pretty much nit-picking compared to that.
On February 01 2014 17:45 Whitewing wrote: Protoss all-ins are absolutely all-in. That's the freaking definition. Putting quotation marks around it doesn't change the fact. If it's not all-in, then it's just pressure. If it's all-in, then when it fails you lose. If I do an 8 gate all-in off 2 bases and you hold it without losing a base or drones, I just plain die. That's an all-in. If I do a 4 gate +1 pressure and fail to snipe your third, I'm behind, but not dead, it was not an all-in.
You have other attacks too you can do at all phases of the game. Plenty of protoss losses occur to mass speedling all-ins busting the wall, or big mutalisk switches that flat out kill nexii.
You havent seen gsl games where a toss "all ins" but ends up not being an all in? Have you not listen to casters? The problem with toss is its so easy to come back after a supposed "all in" with the photon overcharge and forcefields. 3 sentries can ff a ramp until the game ends. Zergs LOSE because of the counter attacks that happened after an all in and they can't defend it. Toss CAN. This is what terrans are whining about now, and if terrans with their mules are complaining about toss come backs after all ins then you know shit is going down.
So stop saying zergs all ins are like toss cause we cant do shit about counters after we failed an all in.
Um, the casters are usually just wrong. Had that thought occurred to you? Just because they call it an all-in doesn't make it one.
So what I'm hearing is: Toss shouldn't be able to defend attacks with forcefields, toss should not be able to make comebacks at all, toss should not be able to engage in base trades with zerg at all or split their army whatsoever and defend counter attacks.
And um, if you all-in as toss, and your opponent holds it, the correct action is not to immediately counter all-in the protoss.
On February 01 2014 17:46 Talack wrote: They honestly should make MSC be extremely slow away from a nexus similar to the queen on creep. That unit should 100% be extremely risky to use offensively.
Thank you! Finally something non-bias. Either both terran and zergs need more options where attack AND defends exist, or toss should have some taken away.
The act of agreeing with you is not the definition of non-bias. Everyone has a bias, I have a bias, you have a bias.
I'm not saying protoss doesn't necessarily need a nerf somewhere, I think the msc vision should be nerfed, it's just silly. But there is no change to PvZ needed whatsoever from a balance perspective.
Problem was he wasn't agreeing with me. He said msc was the problem, I said toss flexbility is the problem. Please read.
There is an underlying current in this sea of balance and imba crying: In BW there was an expected ratio of wins - Terran with the most wins, then Zerg and then Protoss. I sometimes I think us Terran players won't be happy until that is the case...
Avilo's rant was funny: His first 4 points are absurd...his 5th one I like...the 6th one...I would like to see tested...
Removing sight from the MSC completely changes the PvP match up...a significant range decrease in PO also would destroy the well fought for (although precarious) decrease in rock, paper, scissors aspect in PvP.
Rather than the tempest buff I would prefer to see this buff go to the carrier, along with removing interceptor costs.
The Hydra is buff is just wrong...soo many reasons...can't type them all...but lets test it more...how about 150/25? this I could accept...
The ghost buff is nice...2 base templar plays into 3rd or all ins can be silenced a little with this...
How many changes to the game are needed to mech viable v Protoss? I do not know but I know the number is very high...enough to upset the balance in the game at the moment...
But overall the game is really quite balanced. I love Terran, Zerg and Protoss and watch all the high end tournaments to see each player and race try and overcome adversity...
I am a happy Sc2 fan and player with nil complaints. Thank you TL and thank you Blizzrd for the great game!!!
On February 01 2014 17:46 Talack wrote: They honestly should make MSC be extremely slow away from a nexus similar to the queen on creep. That unit should 100% be extremely risky to use offensively.
Thank you! Finally something non-bias. Either both terran and zergs need more options where attack AND defends exist, or toss should have some taken away.
I just want the game to be fun again...That's all. And no, Mech is just...it's not fun. Protoss didn't enjoy sitting in their base doing almost nothing but build a near-unkillable army and neither does terran.
Anyway back to the point, I do hope this hydralisk change doesnt go through but a buff else where on our anti air. I read somewhere that suggestions was made for hydras to have a seperate attack stats for anti air and I would hope blizz utilise that instead.
On February 01 2014 17:08 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Even as a Zerg I don't support, nor do I understand the hydralisk buff. Seems like another example of Blizzard messing with something that isn't broken again...
ugh
On February 01 2014 16:48 ZenithM wrote: I don't know Kim...
fixed
Though I agree with you,You can't deny we need better anti-air though. And I meant a buff in strictly anti air
I don't agree, your anti-air is pretty powerful overall. Fungal + corrupter fleet + spores and vipers for abduct pretty much make it impossible for a protoss air army to ever engage zerg without dying. Swarm hosts make it so templar support for storms is non-viable, and zerg just abducts the protoss to death. It's a really boring and lame game, but if you buff other anti-air, you're just going to see zerg waltz in and kill toss pretty much every time.
Think about what you said, you have just listed a need for infestation pit,spire and hive just to defend against a airtoss. Well for terran its barracks and toss a cyber core, plus add in the fact that marines and stalkers scale well from early-mid-late game. What you listed for us is only available in mid game, plus hydras really really dont scale well.
Maybe take your own advice and think about what you said. When you say "airtoss", I'm assuming you're talking about an army composed mostly, if not entirely, of Stargate units. Such a composition would only be available in the late game, in which case, Zerg should have Hive tech available. You say that the requirements for Zerg to combat "airtoss" is too exhausting. All the while ignorantly stating that all Protoss needs to deal with airtoss is a Cybernetics Core, implying that a pure Stalker army would effectively combat an airtoss army (couldn't be more wrong, btw). I can't take you too seriously if you can't see all sides of the equation.
Now, in the case that you're just referring to Stargate units in general when you say "airtoss", then Hydralisks with the aid of Queens and/or Spore Crawlers should more than suffice when it comes to defending your base against mid game Stargate aggression/harass. Even in the early game, Queens and Spores do well enough fending off harassment from Protoss air units.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning...
Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink. This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO... Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about. I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2?
I've tried all sorts of builds I want to work in this game, many of them don't work. I don't come in here whining about not being able to go only stargate units in PvT or only make units out of the robotics facility. I don't recall zergs complaining about not being able to reliably go ONLY zerglings in ZvP. Some things work, some don't. Just because it's your preferred playstyle does not mean it must be balanced against the entire enemy race. I don't get to go carriers, as much as I want that to be viable.
I get that you like mech and want to play it, and that it's fun for you. However, it is not a balance issue that mech does not work vs. protoss. It is gripe you have about the way the race works yes, but complaining that it is unfair that mech doesn't work is like protoss complaining that mass carriers doesn't work.
If you want mech to work vs. protoss with approximately the same strength as bio, either bio needs to be weakened a little, or protoss needs to be strengthened a little somewhere else. You cannot add options to one race without increasing its strength: the very option existing is a buff.
Well, going only Stargate units in PvT is absolutely viable if the Terran plays mech. Opening with oracles,into voids or Phoenix with 2 base PO is posible. If the T goes BIO, you are dead, but this doesn mean you can compair going full Stargate,full Robo or Mass lings with going mech. MECH are Wm,Hellions,Hellbats,Tanks,Thors,Banshees,Ravens and even BCs or Medivacs(I use then to drop WM or HEllbats). Are you really gonna tell me all this units are the same as "mass lings"? Mech is a Style. You cant go mass carriers vs BIO Terran, but they shred everything if the Terran goes mech and allows you to mass them. Actually Protoss anti mech options are so many and so strong that its almost imposible to win and you only need to amove your Immortal/Archon/Collosi army into 15 presieged tanks. You call this "NORMAL"? The entire Protoss army for SC2 is designed to shut mech pretty hard: Charge to get quickly closer to siege lines.Blink doing the same.Collosi helping from behind,IMMORTALS shredding everything. Archons,Oracles,Void Rays...You need more?
So what you're saying is, if the terran voluntarily lets me do it, I can do whatever I want? Thanks for the tautology.
On February 01 2014 17:02 Tresher wrote:
On February 01 2014 16:44 Whitewing wrote:
On February 01 2014 16:38 Dvriel wrote:
On February 01 2014 10:58 Musicus wrote: [quote]
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning...
Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink. This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO... Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about. I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2?
I've tried all sorts of builds I want to work in this game, many of them don't work. I don't come in here whining about not being able to go only stargate units in PvT or only make units out of the robotics facility. I don't recall zergs complaining about not being able to reliably go ONLY zerglings in ZvP. Some things work, some don't. Just because it's your preferred playstyle does not mean it must be balanced against the entire enemy race. I don't get to go carriers, as much as I want that to be viable.
I get that you like mech and want to play it, and that it's fun for you. However, it is not a balance issue that mech does not work vs. protoss. It is gripe you have about the way the race works yes, but complaining that it is unfair that mech doesn't work is like protoss complaining that mass carriers doesn't work.
If you want mech to work vs. protoss with approximately the same strength as bio, either bio needs to be weakened a little, or protoss needs to be strengthened a little somewhere else. You cannot add options to one race without increasing its strength: the very option existing is a buff.
Stopped reading at the bolded part. Cant believe people still dont get it that going Bio OR Mech is a unique thing to the Terran race just like Zerg can mass/swarm Units and Protoss has few but strong Units. Obviously never played BW.
LoL. "Its Avilo"... Nice way to discuss,huh? Who are you man? Mvp or maybe Polt with a name for TL? Avilo at least try mech. He is not a balance whiner. He is the only man saying the real f.... true about SC2. None of the Progamers dare to even say what are they really thinking and you disrespect him so easily...We are talking about mech and you are saying "marines are dangerous and quick." COME ON, PLEASE, REALLY??? WTF? Can you show me a single VOD or BO when Terran is aggressive in early game TvP¿???? When was the last time Protoss Progamer lost PvT at 7:30 min mark???? WHEN? Blink all in forcé "certain adaptations"??? Have you ever played Terran, please? Come on, try it man and let me see your face, with 4 bunkers in Deadalus or Heavy Rain, stim,shields,medivacs and+1 at 7 mins while the blink all in is at your ramp.3 mins later you go out and discover the Protoss got doublé forge,robo,Nexus mining and fully saturated in the natural, you try to drop WHILE attacking the natural, the PO is casted on both nexi and you need to go home, trying to expand to catch the Protoss finishig his Storm and 3-3 at 14 min.After all this I wanna see you winning without pulling SCVs OR going MECH hehe. Please,THINK BEFORE YOU WRITE
I fully agree here. Sad thing is when you posted that the guy below you just made the same useless "lol its avilo" argument. He may overreact sometimes but some things are really clever and true.
So you stopped reading and didn't bother to finish the rest of the argument. That's like someone saying "The world isn't flat, it's round, let me explain how we know..." And you stop reading after "The world isn't flat" because it doesn't fit your preconceptions. It also isn't exactly very helpful to any sort of discussion to read 2 sentences and then declare "I don't agree, I'm not reading the rest." That adds absolutely nothing.
In BW, terran could not viably go bio in TvP except for some weird wonky all-in builds. It wasn't really a choice, the only matchup where bio was consistently viable for them was TvZ. It wasn't a choice then either. If you went bio in TvP, you pretty much lost the moment reavers hit the field.
What I am saying is IF Terran decides to go MECH YOU WILL BE ABLE TO MASS CARRIERS. Terran need to turtle on 3 bases to secure 6 gases to be able to upgrade as well as you with two armories and research at least Blue Flame for HEllbats,make ghosts with Moebius and cloak upgrade,as well as banshees and Ravens with their upgrades. Can you add all this to turrets and Sensor towers to prevent DTs and Warp Prism drops in the main and try to calculate the gas required.
And what I'm saying is that Terran has to choose to allow me to do it. If Zerg decides to go up to 100 drones before making units, I can go 3 nexus before gateway. That does not mean it's always viable regardless of what my opponent chooses to do, like people seem to want mech to be. Some strategies simply are weaker than others, or have vulnerabilities that others don't. And that's a good thing. Imagine, for a moment, if carrier rushing was viable in every matchup against every build regardless of what the opponent did. Wouldn't that suck?
QXC did a good job of explaining this in a video a while back: if both bio and mech are always viable options and both are always very strong choices, protoss is pretty much fucked.
On February 01 2014 17:16 pure.Wasted wrote:
On February 01 2014 17:14 Whitewing wrote:
On February 01 2014 17:09 Dvriel wrote:
On February 01 2014 16:53 Whitewing wrote:
On February 01 2014 16:48 SC2Toastie wrote: Oracles at the top level disappear indeed. The reason is what you don''t seem to recognise: Terrans have adapted their builds to hold oracles easilly. BUT that also means builds cannot be aggressive because you need marines at home. That also means you need to invest in defence infrastructure before you can even know whether you need it or not. The mere precence of the oracle forces adaptations -> just as the Tempest completely disables the Battle Cruiser from really working without mass raven support.
Protoss builds have been changed to adapt to many things terrans can do as well. Old protoss builds like the 1 colossus, take a third, go straight to templar is completely dead. Protoss can't have map control when medivacs are coming out around the 10 minute mark, no matter how badly we want it. There are times when toss can't be aggressive, and there are times when terran can't be aggressive. If terran can be aggressive whenever it wants regardless of what build toss attempts, do you really think that would be reasonable or fair?
The safest build that exists in PvT for Protoss is the Rain build, where he invests in a freaking cannon early on in his mineral lines in case of mine drops, even without knowing whether one is coming or not. If you play greedier than that, you can outright die to mines. Is it unfair that protoss has to account for detection early on in the game or else risk dying to mines? Cloak banshees disappeared because protoss is forced to open detection almost every game. Hero (CJ entus one) died in a proleague match a short while ago vs. Maru because he skipped detection and got killed by cloak banshees. So Protoss adapted to those threats and now opens robo every game, or oracle (which also detects). If nothing cloaked shows up, oh well, we make do with what we have.
It's not simply terran who is forced to do certain things because of their opponent's options. You make it sound like protoss can do literally anything it wants at any time, that is absolutely not the case.
Banshee did not disappear because of Protoss going for detection every game. They are gone because of the 13 ranged Planetary NExus,man. You are affraind of WM drops? How many PvTs end before 10 mins with Terran win? Oh, one game in the last two years? Really?Oracle not only detecs, but also can kill a mínimum of FOUR workers and escape without dying,whle able to detect home and kill the WM.The WM drop means the T is going 1-1-1 and this is only one of the two builds Terran can go vs P.Now lets see how many does P got??? Terran are able to be aggressive ONLY when Medivacs are out and if their banshee or WM drop does not do enough damage, they got miles behind because of the investment.Protoss can Oracle,DT w/o Warp Prism and blink and still can expand.The difference is that Protoss can be aggerssive from the minute 4 sending a Zealot,MScore Stalker poke while Terran cant even rsik to go up the ramp...
Banshees with cloak stopped showing up because protoss always has detection. Nexus cannon means nothing if you can't detect the cloaked banshee, and they even made cloak cheaper. It's purely the fact that protoss adapted to the threats and gets detection every game. We've seen from games like that CJ_Hero vs. Maru game where Maru flat out killed him with cloaked banshees that if you skip detection you die to it. The cannon has absolutely nothing to do with it. Oh, and a one base oracle build getting only 4 workers actually puts the protoss behind, so there goes that argument. Stuff protoss does costs money too bro, it's not free. It's all an investment. In ZvT, once speed finishes, zerg gets a nice long while to have map control, and there's pretty much nothing terran can do about it until medivacs are out. It's NORMAL for a race to have timings where they can't really be aggressive. This argument is silly.
Protoss "adapted"???
You now have a unit that can be macro opened with out of a proxy Stargate that is guaranteed to get kills unless you fuck up, which doubles as a detector.
What are you going to come up with next, Protoss "adapted" to Reaper aggression by nerfing the Reaper and getting PO?
I'm sorry, what? Let me ask you this, given the investment in a stargate, an oracle, and the timings involved that require a delayed expansion, and the delayed robo tech and upgrades from forges, exactly how many kills does an oracle need to get to break even compared to a simple 1 gate expand into robo + double forge? And it's absolutely not guaranteed to get kills, I've seen pro games where the oracle flies in, runs smack into a bunch of marines and zooms out without a kill. I've seen oracles get 2-3 kills, I've seen games in proleague and GSL where an oracle flies in and just dies immediately. There is no guarantee.
I didn't say that a proxy Oracle that gets 3 kills puts you as ahead of the Terran as getting double forge, Psi Storm, and Colossus tech. I said that it's a macro opening. Which it is.
As for how many kills it gets, yeah, you're right, if the Protoss controls like crap and forgets that the Oracle can just leave the base and come back 30 seconds later from a different angle, it can get zero kills. But if they don't forget, then games like this happen.
Really? You're going to point to a game where keen got behind from a proxy gate in his main that he failed to scout as evidence that proxy oracle is broken? Oh, he then, despite scouting his opponent's main with 2 reapers, and seeing no tech or expansion, decided to build a reactor and expansion simultaneously and therefore had no units to defend the oracle?
Keen played absurdly greedy and ignored the info from scouting. The complete lack of tech in the main and no expansion should have been a huge tell.
I didn't bring that game up as evidence of Protoss being broken. I brought that game up as evidence of what Oracles are capable of when Protoss don't just throw them away, but instead use them throughout the entirety of a game. They deal MASSIVE damage to economies. The Terran's not going to have 5 Marines in each of his mineral lines, and even if he does, you can just park the production facilities and pick up free kills that way.
I wrote a lengthy, more general response to you on the last page, that I think you didn't see. This is pretty much nit-picking compared to that.
The oracles were only that useful because of how weak Keen's position was due to the opening game. He never had the resources or tech to shut them down as a result. That game was basically Keen dying super early and then having a 10 minute death animation.
On February 01 2014 17:08 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Even as a Zerg I don't support, nor do I understand the hydralisk buff. Seems like another example of Blizzard messing with something that isn't broken again...
ugh
On February 01 2014 16:48 ZenithM wrote: I don't know Kim...
fixed
Though I agree with you,You can't deny we need better anti-air though. And I meant a buff in strictly anti air
I don't agree, your anti-air is pretty powerful overall. Fungal + corrupter fleet + spores and vipers for abduct pretty much make it impossible for a protoss air army to ever engage zerg without dying. Swarm hosts make it so templar support for storms is non-viable, and zerg just abducts the protoss to death. It's a really boring and lame game, but if you buff other anti-air, you're just going to see zerg waltz in and kill toss pretty much every time.
Think about what you said, you have just listed a need for infestation pit,spire and hive just to defend against a airtoss. Well for terran its barracks and toss a cyber core, plus add in the fact that marines and stalkers scale well from early-mid-late game. What you listed for us is only available in mid game, plus hydras really really dont scale well.
Maybe take your own advice and think about what you said. When you say "airtoss", I'm assuming you're talking about an army composed mostly, if not entirely, of Stargate units. Such a composition would only be available in the late game, in which case, Zerg should have Hive tech available. You say that the requirements for Zerg to combat "airtoss" is too exhausting. All the while ignorantly stating that all Protoss needs to deal with airtoss is a Cybernetics Core, implying that a pure Stalker army would effectively combat an airtoss army (couldn't be more wrong, btw). I can't take you too seriously if you can't see all sides of the equation.
Now, in the case that you're just referring to Stargate units in general when you say "airtoss", then Hydralisks with the aid of Queens and/or Spore Crawlers should more than suffice when it comes to defending your base against mid game Stargate aggression/harass. Even in the early game, Queens and Spores do well enough fending off harassment from Protoss air units.
yes I agree queens and spores are useful in defending. What about attacking? Zergs dont want to just defend all game, we want to attack. Either way I am done with this, this back and forth argument is stupid since we are all just defending our races. I applaud blizzard for recognizing there is a problem and trying to fix it and I am just going to wait and see what comes out of it.
On February 01 2014 17:08 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Even as a Zerg I don't support, nor do I understand the hydralisk buff. Seems like another example of Blizzard messing with something that isn't broken again...
ugh
On February 01 2014 16:48 ZenithM wrote: I don't know Kim...
fixed
Though I agree with you,You can't deny we need better anti-air though. And I meant a buff in strictly anti air
I don't agree, your anti-air is pretty powerful overall. Fungal + corrupter fleet + spores and vipers for abduct pretty much make it impossible for a protoss air army to ever engage zerg without dying. Swarm hosts make it so templar support for storms is non-viable, and zerg just abducts the protoss to death. It's a really boring and lame game, but if you buff other anti-air, you're just going to see zerg waltz in and kill toss pretty much every time.
Think about what you said, you have just listed a need for infestation pit,spire and hive just to defend against a airtoss. Well for terran its barracks and toss a cyber core, plus add in the fact that marines and stalkers scale well from early-mid-late game. What you listed for us is only available in mid game, plus hydras really really dont scale well.
Maybe take your own advice and think about what you said. When you say "airtoss", I'm assuming you're talking about an army composed mostly, if not entirely, of Stargate units. Such a composition would only be available in the late game, in which case, Zerg should have Hive tech available. You say that the requirements for Zerg to combat "airtoss" is too exhausting. All the while ignorantly stating that all Protoss needs to deal with airtoss is a Cybernetics Core, implying that a pure Stalker army would effectively combat an airtoss army (couldn't be more wrong, btw). I can't take you too seriously if you can't see all sides of the equation.
Now, in the case that you're just referring to Stargate units in general when you say "airtoss", then Hydralisks with the aid of Queens and/or Spore Crawlers should more than suffice when it comes to defending your base against mid game Stargate aggression/harass. Even in the early game, Queens and Spores do well enough fending off harassment from Protoss air units.
yes I agree queens and spores are useful in defending. What about attacking? Zergs dont want to just defend all game, we want to attack.
You'll just have to accept the fact that you can't just attack willy-nilly at certain timings if your opponent has chosen to do certain things. If you've got a ling/ultra/infestor army out on the map, I'm not attacking until I've gotten a bunch of immortals. If you have roach/hydra/viper, I'm not attacking until I have high templar for feedback. You have higher tech you can get to while defending, and then you can attack or pressure.
In every PvZ, there are absolutely always timings for zerg to attack, unless the zerg just fails to defend and dies.
On February 01 2014 17:46 Talack wrote: They honestly should make MSC be extremely slow away from a nexus similar to the queen on creep. That unit should 100% be extremely risky to use offensively.
Haha, make MSC move with 2 speed in pylon radius, and 0.5 out of pylon radius.
The hydralisk change seems interesting. Half the gas with the same mineral cost. Wonder if 3 base hydralisk all in would be viable in all matchups(is it even an all-in with 3 bases? lol).
Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning...
Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink. This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO... Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about. I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2?
I've tried all sorts of builds I want to work in this game, many of them don't work. I don't come in here whining about not being able to go only stargate units in PvT or only make units out of the robotics facility. I don't recall zergs complaining about not being able to reliably go ONLY zerglings in ZvP. Some things work, some don't. Just because it's your preferred playstyle does not mean it must be balanced against the entire enemy race. I don't get to go carriers, as much as I want that to be viable.
I get that you like mech and want to play it, and that it's fun for you. However, it is not a balance issue that mech does not work vs. protoss. It is gripe you have about the way the race works yes, but complaining that it is unfair that mech doesn't work is like protoss complaining that mass carriers doesn't work.
If you want mech to work vs. protoss with approximately the same strength as bio, either bio needs to be weakened a little, or protoss needs to be strengthened a little somewhere else. You cannot add options to one race without increasing its strength: the very option existing is a buff.
Well, going only Stargate units in PvT is absolutely viable if the Terran plays mech. Opening with oracles,into voids or Phoenix with 2 base PO is posible. If the T goes BIO, you are dead, but this doesn mean you can compair going full Stargate,full Robo or Mass lings with going mech. MECH are Wm,Hellions,Hellbats,Tanks,Thors,Banshees,Ravens and even BCs or Medivacs(I use then to drop WM or HEllbats). Are you really gonna tell me all this units are the same as "mass lings"? Mech is a Style. You cant go mass carriers vs BIO Terran, but they shred everything if the Terran goes mech and allows you to mass them. Actually Protoss anti mech options are so many and so strong that its almost imposible to win and you only need to amove your Immortal/Archon/Collosi army into 15 presieged tanks. You call this "NORMAL"? The entire Protoss army for SC2 is designed to shut mech pretty hard: Charge to get quickly closer to siege lines.Blink doing the same.Collosi helping from behind,IMMORTALS shredding everything. Archons,Oracles,Void Rays...You need more?
So what you're saying is, if the terran voluntarily lets me do it, I can do whatever I want? Thanks for the tautology.
On February 01 2014 17:02 Tresher wrote:
On February 01 2014 16:44 Whitewing wrote:
On February 01 2014 16:38 Dvriel wrote: [quote]
Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning...
Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink. This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO... Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about. I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2?
I've tried all sorts of builds I want to work in this game, many of them don't work. I don't come in here whining about not being able to go only stargate units in PvT or only make units out of the robotics facility. I don't recall zergs complaining about not being able to reliably go ONLY zerglings in ZvP. Some things work, some don't. Just because it's your preferred playstyle does not mean it must be balanced against the entire enemy race. I don't get to go carriers, as much as I want that to be viable.
I get that you like mech and want to play it, and that it's fun for you. However, it is not a balance issue that mech does not work vs. protoss. It is gripe you have about the way the race works yes, but complaining that it is unfair that mech doesn't work is like protoss complaining that mass carriers doesn't work.
If you want mech to work vs. protoss with approximately the same strength as bio, either bio needs to be weakened a little, or protoss needs to be strengthened a little somewhere else. You cannot add options to one race without increasing its strength: the very option existing is a buff.
Stopped reading at the bolded part. Cant believe people still dont get it that going Bio OR Mech is a unique thing to the Terran race just like Zerg can mass/swarm Units and Protoss has few but strong Units. Obviously never played BW.
LoL. "Its Avilo"... Nice way to discuss,huh? Who are you man? Mvp or maybe Polt with a name for TL? Avilo at least try mech. He is not a balance whiner. He is the only man saying the real f.... true about SC2. None of the Progamers dare to even say what are they really thinking and you disrespect him so easily...We are talking about mech and you are saying "marines are dangerous and quick." COME ON, PLEASE, REALLY??? WTF? Can you show me a single VOD or BO when Terran is aggressive in early game TvP¿???? When was the last time Protoss Progamer lost PvT at 7:30 min mark???? WHEN? Blink all in forcé "certain adaptations"??? Have you ever played Terran, please? Come on, try it man and let me see your face, with 4 bunkers in Deadalus or Heavy Rain, stim,shields,medivacs and+1 at 7 mins while the blink all in is at your ramp.3 mins later you go out and discover the Protoss got doublé forge,robo,Nexus mining and fully saturated in the natural, you try to drop WHILE attacking the natural, the PO is casted on both nexi and you need to go home, trying to expand to catch the Protoss finishig his Storm and 3-3 at 14 min.After all this I wanna see you winning without pulling SCVs OR going MECH hehe. Please,THINK BEFORE YOU WRITE
I fully agree here. Sad thing is when you posted that the guy below you just made the same useless "lol its avilo" argument. He may overreact sometimes but some things are really clever and true.
So you stopped reading and didn't bother to finish the rest of the argument. That's like someone saying "The world isn't flat, it's round, let me explain how we know..." And you stop reading after "The world isn't flat" because it doesn't fit your preconceptions. It also isn't exactly very helpful to any sort of discussion to read 2 sentences and then declare "I don't agree, I'm not reading the rest." That adds absolutely nothing.
In BW, terran could not viably go bio in TvP except for some weird wonky all-in builds. It wasn't really a choice, the only matchup where bio was consistently viable for them was TvZ. It wasn't a choice then either. If you went bio in TvP, you pretty much lost the moment reavers hit the field.
What I am saying is IF Terran decides to go MECH YOU WILL BE ABLE TO MASS CARRIERS. Terran need to turtle on 3 bases to secure 6 gases to be able to upgrade as well as you with two armories and research at least Blue Flame for HEllbats,make ghosts with Moebius and cloak upgrade,as well as banshees and Ravens with their upgrades. Can you add all this to turrets and Sensor towers to prevent DTs and Warp Prism drops in the main and try to calculate the gas required.
And what I'm saying is that Terran has to choose to allow me to do it. If Zerg decides to go up to 100 drones before making units, I can go 3 nexus before gateway. That does not mean it's always viable regardless of what my opponent chooses to do, like people seem to want mech to be. Some strategies simply are weaker than others, or have vulnerabilities that others don't. And that's a good thing. Imagine, for a moment, if carrier rushing was viable in every matchup against every build regardless of what the opponent did. Wouldn't that suck?
QXC did a good job of explaining this in a video a while back: if both bio and mech are always viable options and both are always very strong choices, protoss is pretty much fucked.
On February 01 2014 17:16 pure.Wasted wrote:
On February 01 2014 17:14 Whitewing wrote:
On February 01 2014 17:09 Dvriel wrote:
On February 01 2014 16:53 Whitewing wrote:
On February 01 2014 16:48 SC2Toastie wrote: Oracles at the top level disappear indeed. The reason is what you don''t seem to recognise: Terrans have adapted their builds to hold oracles easilly. BUT that also means builds cannot be aggressive because you need marines at home. That also means you need to invest in defence infrastructure before you can even know whether you need it or not. The mere precence of the oracle forces adaptations -> just as the Tempest completely disables the Battle Cruiser from really working without mass raven support.
Protoss builds have been changed to adapt to many things terrans can do as well. Old protoss builds like the 1 colossus, take a third, go straight to templar is completely dead. Protoss can't have map control when medivacs are coming out around the 10 minute mark, no matter how badly we want it. There are times when toss can't be aggressive, and there are times when terran can't be aggressive. If terran can be aggressive whenever it wants regardless of what build toss attempts, do you really think that would be reasonable or fair?
The safest build that exists in PvT for Protoss is the Rain build, where he invests in a freaking cannon early on in his mineral lines in case of mine drops, even without knowing whether one is coming or not. If you play greedier than that, you can outright die to mines. Is it unfair that protoss has to account for detection early on in the game or else risk dying to mines? Cloak banshees disappeared because protoss is forced to open detection almost every game. Hero (CJ entus one) died in a proleague match a short while ago vs. Maru because he skipped detection and got killed by cloak banshees. So Protoss adapted to those threats and now opens robo every game, or oracle (which also detects). If nothing cloaked shows up, oh well, we make do with what we have.
It's not simply terran who is forced to do certain things because of their opponent's options. You make it sound like protoss can do literally anything it wants at any time, that is absolutely not the case.
Banshee did not disappear because of Protoss going for detection every game. They are gone because of the 13 ranged Planetary NExus,man. You are affraind of WM drops? How many PvTs end before 10 mins with Terran win? Oh, one game in the last two years? Really?Oracle not only detecs, but also can kill a mínimum of FOUR workers and escape without dying,whle able to detect home and kill the WM.The WM drop means the T is going 1-1-1 and this is only one of the two builds Terran can go vs P.Now lets see how many does P got??? Terran are able to be aggressive ONLY when Medivacs are out and if their banshee or WM drop does not do enough damage, they got miles behind because of the investment.Protoss can Oracle,DT w/o Warp Prism and blink and still can expand.The difference is that Protoss can be aggerssive from the minute 4 sending a Zealot,MScore Stalker poke while Terran cant even rsik to go up the ramp...
Banshees with cloak stopped showing up because protoss always has detection. Nexus cannon means nothing if you can't detect the cloaked banshee, and they even made cloak cheaper. It's purely the fact that protoss adapted to the threats and gets detection every game. We've seen from games like that CJ_Hero vs. Maru game where Maru flat out killed him with cloaked banshees that if you skip detection you die to it. The cannon has absolutely nothing to do with it. Oh, and a one base oracle build getting only 4 workers actually puts the protoss behind, so there goes that argument. Stuff protoss does costs money too bro, it's not free. It's all an investment. In ZvT, once speed finishes, zerg gets a nice long while to have map control, and there's pretty much nothing terran can do about it until medivacs are out. It's NORMAL for a race to have timings where they can't really be aggressive. This argument is silly.
Protoss "adapted"???
You now have a unit that can be macro opened with out of a proxy Stargate that is guaranteed to get kills unless you fuck up, which doubles as a detector.
What are you going to come up with next, Protoss "adapted" to Reaper aggression by nerfing the Reaper and getting PO?
I'm sorry, what? Let me ask you this, given the investment in a stargate, an oracle, and the timings involved that require a delayed expansion, and the delayed robo tech and upgrades from forges, exactly how many kills does an oracle need to get to break even compared to a simple 1 gate expand into robo + double forge? And it's absolutely not guaranteed to get kills, I've seen pro games where the oracle flies in, runs smack into a bunch of marines and zooms out without a kill. I've seen oracles get 2-3 kills, I've seen games in proleague and GSL where an oracle flies in and just dies immediately. There is no guarantee.
I didn't say that a proxy Oracle that gets 3 kills puts you as ahead of the Terran as getting double forge, Psi Storm, and Colossus tech. I said that it's a macro opening. Which it is.
As for how many kills it gets, yeah, you're right, if the Protoss controls like crap and forgets that the Oracle can just leave the base and come back 30 seconds later from a different angle, it can get zero kills. But if they don't forget, then games like this happen.
Really? You're going to point to a game where keen got behind from a proxy gate in his main that he failed to scout as evidence that proxy oracle is broken? Oh, he then, despite scouting his opponent's main with 2 reapers, and seeing no tech or expansion, decided to build a reactor and expansion simultaneously and therefore had no units to defend the oracle?
Keen played absurdly greedy and ignored the info from scouting. The complete lack of tech in the main and no expansion should have been a huge tell.
I didn't bring that game up as evidence of Protoss being broken. I brought that game up as evidence of what Oracles are capable of when Protoss don't just throw them away, but instead use them throughout the entirety of a game. They deal MASSIVE damage to economies. The Terran's not going to have 5 Marines in each of his mineral lines, and even if he does, you can just park the production facilities and pick up free kills that way.
I wrote a lengthy, more general response to you on the last page, that I think you didn't see. This is pretty much nit-picking compared to that.
The oracles were only that useful because of how weak Keen's position was due to the opening game. He never had the resources or tech to shut them down as a result. That game was basically Keen dying super early and then having a 10 minute death animation.
Then show me a game where what happened to Keen is impossible because the Terran has 5 Marines parked in every one of his mineral lines for the entire duration of the game.
Cause if he doesn't, that Oracle could come back and try again. If it doesn't, that's just the Protoss being lazy.
Whitewing, could you try to show more nuance and less binary thinking in your arguments? The world isn't black/white, especially balancing this game. Putting words in somebody elses mouth an hyperbole don't make you seem more knowledgable or right in any way. Thanks!
On February 01 2014 17:08 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Even as a Zerg I don't support, nor do I understand the hydralisk buff. Seems like another example of Blizzard messing with something that isn't broken again...
ugh
On February 01 2014 16:48 ZenithM wrote: I don't know Kim...
fixed
Though I agree with you,You can't deny we need better anti-air though. And I meant a buff in strictly anti air
I don't agree, your anti-air is pretty powerful overall. Fungal + corrupter fleet + spores and vipers for abduct pretty much make it impossible for a protoss air army to ever engage zerg without dying. Swarm hosts make it so templar support for storms is non-viable, and zerg just abducts the protoss to death. It's a really boring and lame game, but if you buff other anti-air, you're just going to see zerg waltz in and kill toss pretty much every time.
Think about what you said, you have just listed a need for infestation pit,spire and hive just to defend against a airtoss. Well for terran its barracks and toss a cyber core, plus add in the fact that marines and stalkers scale well from early-mid-late game. What you listed for us is only available in mid game, plus hydras really really dont scale well.
Maybe take your own advice and think about what you said. When you say "airtoss", I'm assuming you're talking about an army composed mostly, if not entirely, of Stargate units. Such a composition would only be available in the late game, in which case, Zerg should have Hive tech available. You say that the requirements for Zerg to combat "airtoss" is too exhausting. All the while ignorantly stating that all Protoss needs to deal with airtoss is a Cybernetics Core, implying that a pure Stalker army would effectively combat an airtoss army (couldn't be more wrong, btw). I can't take you too seriously if you can't see all sides of the equation.
Now, in the case that you're just referring to Stargate units in general when you say "airtoss", then Hydralisks with the aid of Queens and/or Spore Crawlers should more than suffice when it comes to defending your base against mid game Stargate aggression/harass. Even in the early game, Queens and Spores do well enough fending off harassment from Protoss air units.
yes I agree queens and spores are useful in defending. What about attacking? Zergs dont want to just defend all game, we want to attack.
You'll just have to accept the fact that you can't just attack willy-nilly at certain timings if your opponent has chosen to do certain things. If you've got a ling/ultra/infestor army out on the map, I'm not attacking until I've gotten a bunch of immortals. If you have roach/hydra/viper, I'm not attacking until I have high templar for feedback. You have higher tech you can get to while defending, and then you can attack or pressure.
In every PvZ, there are absolutely always timings for zerg to attack, unless the zerg just fails to defend and dies.
Oh lord I was going to shut up until I saw this. The compositions you listed are so much later for zerg then toss. There is no way you wont hit me with your units before I can get those stuff out. I understand being bias, I am bias too to zerg but you are getting way out of hand pulling stuff out of thin air.
On February 01 2014 18:16 SC2Toastie wrote: Yo Seventh Pride, make broodlords to defend proxy 2 gate, because broodlords rape Zealots!! Dat Whitewing logic
On February 01 2014 18:16 SC2Toastie wrote: Yo Seventh Pride, make broodlords to defend proxy 2 gate, because broodlords rape Zealots!! Dat Whitewing logic
Even if it makes the game imbalanced for a short while while a new meta is figured out, because earlier/better mass hydra will DRASTICALLY change the meta in all 3 matchups in a positive way:less commital to quick 3rds, more commital to tech units such as Siege Tanks or even just forcing the Protoss to make units in the early-midgame at all, I'm quite unhappy about this potentially occuring at the start of a GSL season. This should have happened a month ago or more, not half a week before Code S starts.
On February 01 2014 18:23 Big-t wrote: Does this mean Tempest will no longer deal so much dmg vs colossus, archon, thor and ultra?
You're a bit late to the party. Tempest damage versus all ground units was brought down to 30 or so a while ago. Right now in 2.1, it only has a bonus to massive air; and out of the units you mentioned, only colossus is treated as such. The new change will only increase damage to buildings.
On February 01 2014 18:23 Big-t wrote: Does this mean Tempest will no longer deal so much dmg vs colossus, archon, thor and ultra?
You're a bit late to the party. Tempest damage versus all ground units was brought down to 30 or so a while ago. Right now in 2.1, it only has a bonus to massive air; and out of the units you mentioned, only colossus is treated as such. The new change will only increase damage to buildings.
Ah right, kind of forgot that colossus count as air
On February 01 2014 18:31 Lunareste wrote: Even if it makes the game imbalanced for a short while while a new meta is figured out, because earlier/better mass hydra will DRASTICALLY change the meta in all 3 matchups in a positive way:less commital to quick 3rds, more commital to tech units such as Siege Tanks or even just forcing the Protoss to make units in the early-midgame at all, I'm quite unhappy about this potentially occuring at the start of a GSL season. This should have happened a month ago or more, not half a week before Code S starts.
It's only a test, mate. I doubt they'd implement the patch during Code S. I'd say a couple of weeks of testing, maybe some changes, and then implement. Speaking of which, I haven't had a game on the test map since a little earlier. No-one seemed to be around (or I just did not wait long enough for someone to join me). I'm keen to try out the imba Tempests.
I hope some good Zergs play this test map and show that the Hydra cost decrease is way too severe a change. Unfortunately, judging by the 32% approval rating in the poll, it does look like our Z want this change to happen though, haha. Also, I'm still against photon overcharge duration nerf, instead reduce MSC vision so you have to expose it in blink allins and bump up recall cost to make it slightly less useful offensively.
Why do people who are prob in bronze talk bad about Avilo? His points are valid if you like him or not. He plays mech, and he plays it in GM vs protoss a lot of the time. The guy is 100x better than anyone in this thread, or who disrespect him.
Majority of the stuff he speaks is true and not a mindless whine. People in this community and society just hate on people because they think "it's the cool thing to do. It's a no brainer Terran vs Protoss needs some love. Playing only 1 viable spec in a RTS is terrible Design and has to change. Bio every game is the most boring POS to watch after a good 4+ years of SC2. Mech should be a viable option vs protoss.
On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote: I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
I guess that is the reason Blizzard is not relying too much on player input: you basically just want all that's good for Terran while nerfing everything Toss has. Well thought out...
On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote: I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
I guess that is the reason Blizzard is not relying too much on player input: you basically just want all that's good for Terran while nerfing everything Toss has. Well thought out...
Stop hating on 1 person. Tons of Terran have expressed how stale TVP is, and how mech should be viable vs protoss. Even in WOL protoss was always favored vs Terran. Most of Avilos suggestions are things the community has been saying forever, they are not 1 sided in Terran favor. A lot of Koreans also expressed their frustration in the match up and wish mech was viable. Major even stated how the Koreans felt about it when he was in Korea.
On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote: I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
I guess that is the reason Blizzard is not relying too much on player input: you basically just want all that's good for Terran while nerfing everything Toss has. Well thought out...
I think it is fair to say that Avilo is not the average pro in terms of balance thinking.
but it is also wrong to throw all his ideas out of the window because "they are from avilo". Everyone is biased on his own race thats the nature of rts games, ask Orc players they sayed that Orc vs Undead was balanced...
I personally would like to see the armory getting cheaper because this part of tech is in favor of P (twilight is more useful in more situations and it requires only a cyber core instead of a factory).
Also i think a upgrade nerf to protoss could help TvP, the reduction on WoL was ok because Protoss neded to spend more gas to survive early game which is the other way around in TvP now.
On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote: I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
I guess that is the reason Blizzard is not relying too much on player input: you basically just want all that's good for Terran while nerfing everything Toss has. Well thought out...
I think it is fair to say that Avilo is not the average pro in terms of balance thinking.
but it is also wrong to throw all his ideas out of the window because "they are from avilo". Everyone is biased on his own race thats the nature of rts games, ask Orc players they sayed that Orc vs Undead was balanced...
I personally would like to see the armory getting cheaper because this part of tech is in favor of P (twilight is more useful in more situations and it requires only a cyber core instead of a factory).
Also i think a upgrade nerf to protoss could help TvP, the reduction on WoL was ok because Protoss neded to spend more gas to survive early game which is the other way around in TvP now.
I am not saying all he says is wrong, it's just a very onesided presentation. He basically picks all suggestion that have been made and says: If they want to do something meaningful, this is what they should do. This would not balance TvP, it would outright swing it in Ts favor.
I think out of avilos suggestions the turret and armory changes seem reasonable and should be tested. They already did the equivalent to zerg with spores no longer requiring evo chambers. It bring a lot more stability into early game TvP when emergency turrets can be built faster and it just costs way less mineral to be safe from all the random shit protoss can throw at you. The downside is thats its a banshee nerf in TvT but honestly TvT feels kinda coinflippy at times too, especially the early game.
The armory change would be a huge help with mech TvP in general, try making a mech TvP build that can defend blink stalkers while maybe doing some light harass with hellion drops. Your armories will be extremely delayed because you just can't afford 300/200 into armories and then another 200/200 to get the upgrades going.
I dont like the hydra buff for a lot of reason zvz : hydras all the time since they are now a lot cheaper than infestor and come out easely against muta zvt : it ok i guess but roaches hydras will be really really strong mid games + possiblity to tech to hyve faster caus of gaz zvp : real problem here ling hydras into muta will be so strong now also big roaches hydras or hydras ling will be huge to deal with
suggestion : make it more 85 minerals and 50 gaz
duration of charge and cost of tw :
time of tw: good idee duration : really bad for pvp and wont make a huge impact in the other matchup : still a real nerf for p
ghost : good idee for all mu great buff terran can now have sharper timing attck or defense
tempest : dont like the buff but i think it wont make a huge difference caus of low dps. still thet should not buff tempest. may by decrease a bit carrier build time
im a random master player : only real pb is tvp lategame so ghost buff is good but mayby not enough
i think most of you dont reallise how much impact a small nerf or buff can have specilally for the mothership core and hydras
On February 01 2014 20:13 Bagi wrote: I think out of avilos suggestions the turret and armory changes seem reasonable and should be tested. They already did the equivalent to zerg with spores no longer requiring evo chambers. It bring a lot more stability into early game TvP when emergency turrets can be built faster and it just costs way less mineral to be safe from all the random shit protoss can throw at you. The downside is thats its a banshee nerf in TvT but honestly TvT feels kinda coinflippy at times too, especially the early game.
The armory change would be a huge help with mech TvP in general, try making a mech TvP build that can defend blink stalkers while maybe doing some light harass with hellion drops. Your armories will be extremely delayed because you just can't afford 300/200 into armories and then another 200/200 to get the upgrades going.
The armory change would break TvZ, imo. Mech has been quite strong lately against Zerg and with faster upgrades, therefore an earlier Mech Death Ball - I don't know if that's reasonable.
On February 01 2014 20:27 sDaLi wrote: I dont like the hydra buff for a lot of reason (...)
tempest : dont like the buff but i think it wont make a huge difference caus of low dps. still thet should not buff tempest. may by decrease a bit carrier build time
(...)
What really confuses me about the Tempest buff is that they had explicitly stated they only wanted it to affect PvZ. For me that would have meant making tempests unabductable. However, the current change will probably just buff lategame PvT while leaving lategame PvZ almost untouched.
On February 01 2014 20:27 sDaLi wrote: I dont like the hydra buff for a lot of reason (...)
tempest : dont like the buff but i think it wont make a huge difference caus of low dps. still thet should not buff tempest. may by decrease a bit carrier build time
(...)
What really confuses me about the Tempest buff is that they had explicitly stated they only wanted it to affect PvZ. For me that would have meant making tempests unabductable. However, the current change will probably just buff lategame PvT while leaving lategame PvZ almost untouched.
i guess its for killing wall's of spore and spine faster. when you see some of snute games you can understand. but i still disagree with this buff
On February 01 2014 20:13 Bagi wrote: I think out of avilos suggestions the turret and armory changes seem reasonable and should be tested. They already did the equivalent to zerg with spores no longer requiring evo chambers. It bring a lot more stability into early game TvP when emergency turrets can be built faster and it just costs way less mineral to be safe from all the random shit protoss can throw at you. The downside is thats its a banshee nerf in TvT but honestly TvT feels kinda coinflippy at times too, especially the early game.
The armory change would be a huge help with mech TvP in general, try making a mech TvP build that can defend blink stalkers while maybe doing some light harass with hellion drops. Your armories will be extremely delayed because you just can't afford 300/200 into armories and then another 200/200 to get the upgrades going.
The armory change would break TvZ, imo. Mech has been quite strong lately against Zerg and with faster upgrades, therefore an earlier Mech Death Ball - I don't know if that's reasonable.
I don't think it would, simply because armories are pretty affordable in TvZ as it is. A few tanks behind a wall and some hellions can ward off all early aggression and you are free to put some gas into upgrades and whatnot. This isnt the case against protoss, tanks are much worse at defending protoss aggression so you will need to keep building tanks nonstop.
Basically in TvZ an armory cost change would give terran an extra 100/100 but I doubt it would change armory timings much, which makes it a small buff but not a game changer. In TvP it could help you squeeze in those armories much earlier in your build and fundamentally change your upgrade timings.
On February 01 2014 20:13 Bagi wrote: I think out of avilos suggestions the turret and armory changes seem reasonable and should be tested. They already did the equivalent to zerg with spores no longer requiring evo chambers. It bring a lot more stability into early game TvP when emergency turrets can be built faster and it just costs way less mineral to be safe from all the random shit protoss can throw at you. The downside is thats its a banshee nerf in TvT but honestly TvT feels kinda coinflippy at times too, especially the early game.
The armory change would be a huge help with mech TvP in general, try making a mech TvP build that can defend blink stalkers while maybe doing some light harass with hellion drops. Your armories will be extremely delayed because you just can't afford 300/200 into armories and then another 200/200 to get the upgrades going.
The armory change would break TvZ, imo. Mech has been quite strong lately against Zerg and with faster upgrades, therefore an earlier Mech Death Ball - I don't know if that's reasonable.
I don't think it would, simply because armories are pretty affordable in TvZ as it is. A few tanks behind a wall and some hellions can ward off all early aggression and you are free to put some gas into upgrades and whatnot. This isnt the case against protoss, tanks are much worse at defending protoss aggression so you will need to keep building tanks nonstop.
Basically in TvZ an armory cost change would give terran an extra 100/100 but I doubt it would change armory timings much, which makes it a small buff but not a game changer. In TvP it could help you squeeze in those armories much earlier in your build and fundamentally change your upgrade timings.
The difference is that in TvZ there is a strong contain+macro build that gives you the scouting and infrastructure to defend anything, thus you can afford upgrades because you are 'safe'. In TvP scouting is hard, doesn't mean a whole lot and you NEED 3 rax Stim to defend attacks, siege tanks won't hold your front again dedicated pressure because quite frankly they SUCK vs Zealots Archons Immortal and such attacks hit earlier thn the ghost can ever be. And this all comes down to how easy you defend with Msc, because there's no way to go for a scout/pressure/contain build as Terran.
Damn, the amount off ignorance and hate being flung at Avilo is astounding.
Almost all the suggestions he has made are very sensible and much needed changes.
The problem with Protoss, the real imbalance is that they have way too many options, options that, also limit the options terrans can do. TvP late game isn't easy for Terran, but it isn't completely impossible either, you just need both T and P to enter it on even footing.
At the moment terrans can't enter it on even footing. The early aggressive options of toss, Oracles, Blink all-in, DTs etc, force the terran into using very safe and conservative builds. However because the builds are so safe protoss exploits them with extremely greedy builds, that can't be countered almost at all, because the MSC just gives way, way too much safety. Terran is thus stuck between a rock and a hard place, they can't be aggressive at all, because of MSC, but they also can't be too greedy, because of all the lethal pressure toss has.
Something has to give, its either the toss lose some of their defensive power, so terran can actually be aggressive and force toss to be less greedy, or toss itself loses some of its aggressive options so that terran can be more greedy and enter the late game even. The logic here is perfectly fine, I only see outbreaks of QQ from protosses, fearful they will actually have to put in some effort to play.
I see nothing wrong reverting the oracle speed, it was a dumb buff to begin with, it was contested and complained against since the very beginning, even protoss pros agreed that it was a bad change. The oracle limits terrans build order choices, you always have to play safe, you always need to take them into account, because if you don't you just die to it, there is no middle ground there.
I also don't see anything wrong with reducing the sight range of MSC. The MSC already breaks so many rules in the game, its a scouting tool, army support/utility and defensive tool, its too versatile, it has too much, it does too much. The MSC should never have been made so strong, its high time two of its utilities got cut, at the very least the sight range should be reduced so that terran can't have a free scout and free vision of the high ground, with zero counterplay to it.
DT Shrine cost was also stupid. Protoss is already very safe because of MSC, it stands to reason then that if defense is so cheep for them then their aggressive options, at least early game, should be more expensive, to balance things out, so they can't actually put on aggression while still staying 100% safe. You don't see any creative DT strats either, they are used as a gimmick early game to gain a huge lead, or they are used as a reliable harass tool late game in all MUs, the cost of it won't nerf it in the late game, but it will tone down the huge number of possible game ending aggressive options toss has in the early game.
Finally, I have it makes 0 sense anymore for Missile turret to require a engy bay to build, the missile turret can only shoot up, it also costs 100 damn minerals and you need at least 1 per mineral line to be safe. Spore was even changed to not require Evo chambers any more, I don't see why Missile turrets can't get the same treatment. I'm not sure about the sensor tower, I think that should still require an ebay.
I also agree with the armory change, it doesn't affect any unit balance, it helps with one of the core problems of mech, setting up infrastructure, because for the longest time you'll be working off 2 base and have to spend gas on upgrades, infrastructure (factories, SP and all their addons) as well as army, and you can't do it all at once off just 440 gas per minute, which leaves the mech army player with glaring weaknesses, since all of the above cost shit loads of gas.
Quite frankly I just think most of you are hating on Avilo for no good reason, almost none of you presented any counter arguments as to why his suggestions are bad, you only vaguely touch on how it should, supposedly, break TvP by swinging it in terran favor, but I've yet to see explanations as to how that would happen.
All I see is mindless bashing and bronze league logic used to counter quite sensible, actually very conservative proposals.
Edit: And since I seem to have went off topic slightly, I hate all the proposed changes, the only good one is the time warp change, but it doesn't do enough, all the changes are bad because they fail to address the appropriate issue in the appropriate way, but I already explained why in the last thread.
You should never buff static defenses, imo. Best way to make the game boring as shit. I mean you can buff sporecrawlers against Zerg units, I don't care, but leave Terran out of this :D I don't want stronger immobile turrets, no thanks.
I would make an constructive criticism, but I feel like everything was said yet. So my opinion about these balanace changes: -we can see the pattern, why to make something interesting, if we can just simplify this game to LoL status by taking out upgrades, -yeah, let's make hydras cost 2 times less gas so zerg can make 2 times more mutas after switch
This is fucked up.
Protoss changes are good, though reducing vision range would be even better.
I disapprove all changes except Time Warp cost. And I don´t think this goes far enough. The rest can be considered as cosmetical nerf (Photon Overcharge), unimportant but terrible design (Ghost energy) or plain bullshit (Hydra cost or Tempest damage)
I don't know if this would make too much of a difference (although honestly I'm surprised nobody's brought this up yet) but wouldn't implementing Avilo's armory change buff the timings on bio upgrades? I would imagine that this would be especially detrimental to TvZ, where 3/3 Bio-Mine is already very powerful versus Zerg (sure, it hasn't been used as much lately, but I still see it quite often). I understand that Bio is more mineral-intensive so the gas cost probably won't be much of an issue, but I still think this is something we have to keep in mind. Maybe if the cost were changed to 200/50 - gas heavy mech compositions would be buffed, but bio would be nerfed?
On February 01 2014 22:29 Destructicon wrote: Damn, the amount off ignorance and hate being flung at Avilo is astounding.
Almost all the suggestions he has made are very sensible and much needed changes.
The problem with Protoss, the real imbalance is that they have way too many options, options that, also limit the options terrans can do. TvP late game isn't easy for Terran, but it isn't completely impossible either, you just need both T and P to enter it on even footing.
At the moment terrans can't enter it on even footing. The early aggressive options of toss, Oracles, Blink all-in, DTs etc, force the terran into using very safe and conservative builds. However because the builds are so safe protoss exploits them with extremely greedy builds, that can't be countered almost at all, because the MSC just gives way, way too much safety. Terran is thus stuck between a rock and a hard place, they can't be aggressive at all, because of MSC, but they also can't be too greedy, because of all the lethal pressure toss has.
Something has to give, its either the toss lose some of their defensive power, so terran can actually be aggressive and force toss to be less greedy, or toss itself loses some of its aggressive options so that terran can be more greedy and enter the late game even. The logic here is perfectly fine, I only see outbreaks of QQ from protosses, fearful they will actually have to put in some effort to play.
I see nothing wrong reverting the oracle speed, it was a dumb buff to begin with, it was contested and complained against since the very beginning, even protoss pros agreed that it was a bad change. The oracle limits terrans build order choices, you always have to play safe, you always need to take them into account, because if you don't you just die to it, there is no middle ground there.
I also don't see anything wrong with reducing the sight range of MSC. The MSC already breaks so many rules in the game, its a scouting tool, army support/utility and defensive tool, its too versatile, it has too much, it does too much. The MSC should never have been made so strong, its high time two of its utilities got cut, at the very least the sight range should be reduced so that terran can't have a free scout and free vision of the high ground, with zero counterplay to it.
DT Shrine cost was also stupid. Protoss is already very safe because of MSC, it stands to reason then that if defense is so cheep for them then their aggressive options, at least early game, should be more expensive, to balance things out, so they can't actually put on aggression while still staying 100% safe. You don't see any creative DT strats either, they are used as a gimmick early game to gain a huge lead, or they are used as a reliable harass tool late game in all MUs, the cost of it won't nerf it in the late game, but it will tone down the huge number of possible game ending aggressive options toss has in the early game.
Finally, I have it makes 0 sense anymore for Missile turret to require a engy bay to build, the missile turret can only shoot up, it also costs 100 damn minerals and you need at least 1 per mineral line to be safe. Spore was even changed to not require Evo chambers any more, I don't see why Missile turrets can't get the same treatment. I'm not sure about the sensor tower, I think that should still require an ebay.
I also agree with the armory change, it doesn't affect any unit balance, it helps with one of the core problems of mech, setting up infrastructure, because for the longest time you'll be working off 2 base and have to spend gas on upgrades, infrastructure (factories, SP and all their addons) as well as army, and you can't do it all at once off just 440 gas per minute, which leaves the mech army player with glaring weaknesses, since all of the above cost shit loads of gas.
Quite frankly I just think most of you are hating on Avilo for no good reason, almost none of you presented any counter arguments as to why his suggestions are bad, you only vaguely touch on how it should, supposedly, break TvP by swinging it in terran favor, but I've yet to see explanations as to how that would happen.
All I see is mindless bashing and bronze league logic used to counter quite sensible, actually very conservative proposals.
Edit: And since I seem to have went off topic slightly, I hate all the proposed changes, the only good one is the time warp change, but it doesn't do enough, all the changes are bad because they fail to address the appropriate issue in the appropriate way, but I already explained why in the last thread.
I agree with everything but the dark shrine cost nerf, the turret without ebay and especially both of them together. In a game where you can just throw down detection, why would there be a need to revert the dark shrine to 250 gas? That's extremely biased and unreasonable. With the turret without ebay change you don't even need to worry about DTs. You'd just throw down 2 turrets anyway because you're so scared of oracles. Do you look at your propositions one for one or do you actually consider them altogether? Arguing like this is quite rage-inducing.
About the MSC vision range: It currently has a range of 14. It obviously should have 11 like every other air unit. It makes no sense for it to have close to no vision. Unless of course you don't give a shit about current 1 gate expands. I think it'd be better to make it a lot slower like it was done to the queen and give it a speed upgrade later. Well, and since it's supposed to help with scouting it could also get hallucination to balance out the slower movement speed. It's got too many spells anyway, 1 more doesn't make a difference.
On February 01 2014 22:29 Destructicon wrote: Damn, the amount off ignorance and hate being flung at Avilo is astounding.
Almost all the suggestions he has made are very sensible and much needed changes.
The problem with Protoss, the real imbalance is that they have way too many options, options that, also limit the options terrans can do. TvP late game isn't easy for Terran, but it isn't completely impossible either, you just need both T and P to enter it on even footing.
At the moment terrans can't enter it on even footing. The early aggressive options of toss, Oracles, Blink all-in, DTs etc, force the terran into using very safe and conservative builds. However because the builds are so safe protoss exploits them with extremely greedy builds, that can't be countered almost at all, because the MSC just gives way, way too much safety. Terran is thus stuck between a rock and a hard place, they can't be aggressive at all, because of MSC, but they also can't be too greedy, because of all the lethal pressure toss has.
Something has to give, its either the toss lose some of their defensive power, so terran can actually be aggressive and force toss to be less greedy, or toss itself loses some of its aggressive options so that terran can be more greedy and enter the late game even. The logic here is perfectly fine, I only see outbreaks of QQ from protosses, fearful they will actually have to put in some effort to play.
I see nothing wrong reverting the oracle speed, it was a dumb buff to begin with, it was contested and complained against since the very beginning, even protoss pros agreed that it was a bad change. The oracle limits terrans build order choices, you always have to play safe, you always need to take them into account, because if you don't you just die to it, there is no middle ground there.
I also don't see anything wrong with reducing the sight range of MSC. The MSC already breaks so many rules in the game, its a scouting tool, army support/utility and defensive tool, its too versatile, it has too much, it does too much. The MSC should never have been made so strong, its high time two of its utilities got cut, at the very least the sight range should be reduced so that terran can't have a free scout and free vision of the high ground, with zero counterplay to it.
DT Shrine cost was also stupid. Protoss is already very safe because of MSC, it stands to reason then that if defense is so cheep for them then their aggressive options, at least early game, should be more expensive, to balance things out, so they can't actually put on aggression while still staying 100% safe. You don't see any creative DT strats either, they are used as a gimmick early game to gain a huge lead, or they are used as a reliable harass tool late game in all MUs, the cost of it won't nerf it in the late game, but it will tone down the huge number of possible game ending aggressive options toss has in the early game.
Finally, I have it makes 0 sense anymore for Missile turret to require a engy bay to build, the missile turret can only shoot up, it also costs 100 damn minerals and you need at least 1 per mineral line to be safe. Spore was even changed to not require Evo chambers any more, I don't see why Missile turrets can't get the same treatment. I'm not sure about the sensor tower, I think that should still require an ebay.
I also agree with the armory change, it doesn't affect any unit balance, it helps with one of the core problems of mech, setting up infrastructure, because for the longest time you'll be working off 2 base and have to spend gas on upgrades, infrastructure (factories, SP and all their addons) as well as army, and you can't do it all at once off just 440 gas per minute, which leaves the mech army player with glaring weaknesses, since all of the above cost shit loads of gas.
Quite frankly I just think most of you are hating on Avilo for no good reason, almost none of you presented any counter arguments as to why his suggestions are bad, you only vaguely touch on how it should, supposedly, break TvP by swinging it in terran favor, but I've yet to see explanations as to how that would happen.
All I see is mindless bashing and bronze league logic used to counter quite sensible, actually very conservative proposals.
Edit: And since I seem to have went off topic slightly, I hate all the proposed changes, the only good one is the time warp change, but it doesn't do enough, all the changes are bad because they fail to address the appropriate issue in the appropriate way, but I already explained why in the last thread.
It's funny that you start your post with claiming that shit was flung at someone yet then you yourself resort to condescending or plain insulting language.
The problem with avilo's quite conservative proposals is, that in combination they are not conservative proposals anymore. It is a onesided approach to the issue that results in all problems for Terran solved while Toss would be where they were in the era of the infamous 1/1/1 with the added benefit of banshee buffs. Back then, the complains of Tosses were similar to those of Terrans today: lack of scouting info, variety of Terran harass options and macro follow ups as well a lack of harass options. Also, horribly strong Terran all ins (ie 1/1/1 or marine hellion drops)
Just some quick theorycrafting how avilo's changes would affect Tosses options: -Going DTs? Well with old cost and no engibay-turrets? Reduced to an all in that needs to do significant damage (which it should not do anymore). -Oracles? - slow oracles with turrets available on the fly basically make it the same as going DTs. on the other hand: -Tanks sieging your natural and cloaked banshees attacking your mineral line will be painfull without 14 vision range msc especially when you consider that tanks then would do bonus damage versus shields. This would be even stronger than in wol since tanks don't need siege mode research and cloak is considerably cheaper than it was back then.
All in all, the game would be back at super passive protoss turtle play with no aggressive options apart from heavy gateway all ins (only them being a lot weaker with widow mines, free siege mode and stuff)
I may reiterate that I don't find any one of those changes unreasonable in itself but they for sure add up and make mech play a round thing against Toss, while leaving Toss in a situation that reminds me very much of WoL and I don't want to think about the implications those change would have for PvZ.
On February 01 2014 22:29 Destructicon wrote: Damn, the amount off ignorance and hate being flung at Avilo is astounding.
Almost all the suggestions he has made are very sensible and much needed changes.
The problem with Protoss, the real imbalance is that they have way too many options, options that, also limit the options terrans can do. TvP late game isn't easy for Terran, but it isn't completely impossible either, you just need both T and P to enter it on even footing.
At the moment terrans can't enter it on even footing. The early aggressive options of toss, Oracles, Blink all-in, DTs etc, force the terran into using very safe and conservative builds. However because the builds are so safe protoss exploits them with extremely greedy builds, that can't be countered almost at all, because the MSC just gives way, way too much safety. Terran is thus stuck between a rock and a hard place, they can't be aggressive at all, because of MSC, but they also can't be too greedy, because of all the lethal pressure toss has.
Something has to give, its either the toss lose some of their defensive power, so terran can actually be aggressive and force toss to be less greedy, or toss itself loses some of its aggressive options so that terran can be more greedy and enter the late game even. The logic here is perfectly fine, I only see outbreaks of QQ from protosses, fearful they will actually have to put in some effort to play.
I see nothing wrong reverting the oracle speed, it was a dumb buff to begin with, it was contested and complained against since the very beginning, even protoss pros agreed that it was a bad change. The oracle limits terrans build order choices, you always have to play safe, you always need to take them into account, because if you don't you just die to it, there is no middle ground there.
I also don't see anything wrong with reducing the sight range of MSC. The MSC already breaks so many rules in the game, its a scouting tool, army support/utility and defensive tool, its too versatile, it has too much, it does too much. The MSC should never have been made so strong, its high time two of its utilities got cut, at the very least the sight range should be reduced so that terran can't have a free scout and free vision of the high ground, with zero counterplay to it.
DT Shrine cost was also stupid. Protoss is already very safe because of MSC, it stands to reason then that if defense is so cheep for them then their aggressive options, at least early game, should be more expensive, to balance things out, so they can't actually put on aggression while still staying 100% safe. You don't see any creative DT strats either, they are used as a gimmick early game to gain a huge lead, or they are used as a reliable harass tool late game in all MUs, the cost of it won't nerf it in the late game, but it will tone down the huge number of possible game ending aggressive options toss has in the early game.
Finally, I have it makes 0 sense anymore for Missile turret to require a engy bay to build, the missile turret can only shoot up, it also costs 100 damn minerals and you need at least 1 per mineral line to be safe. Spore was even changed to not require Evo chambers any more, I don't see why Missile turrets can't get the same treatment. I'm not sure about the sensor tower, I think that should still require an ebay.
I also agree with the armory change, it doesn't affect any unit balance, it helps with one of the core problems of mech, setting up infrastructure, because for the longest time you'll be working off 2 base and have to spend gas on upgrades, infrastructure (factories, SP and all their addons) as well as army, and you can't do it all at once off just 440 gas per minute, which leaves the mech army player with glaring weaknesses, since all of the above cost shit loads of gas.
Quite frankly I just think most of you are hating on Avilo for no good reason, almost none of you presented any counter arguments as to why his suggestions are bad, you only vaguely touch on how it should, supposedly, break TvP by swinging it in terran favor, but I've yet to see explanations as to how that would happen.
All I see is mindless bashing and bronze league logic used to counter quite sensible, actually very conservative proposals.
Edit: And since I seem to have went off topic slightly, I hate all the proposed changes, the only good one is the time warp change, but it doesn't do enough, all the changes are bad because they fail to address the appropriate issue in the appropriate way, but I already explained why in the last thread.
It's funny that you start your post with claiming that shit was flung at someone yet then you yourself resort to condescending or plain insulting language.
The problem with avilo's quite conservative proposals is, that in combination they are not conservative proposals anymore. It is a onesided approach to the issue that results in all problems for Terran solved while Toss would be where they were in the era of the infamous 1/1/1 with the added benefit of banshee buffs. Back then, the complains of Tosses were similar to those of Terrans today: lack of scouting info, variety of Terran harass options and macro follow ups as well a lack of harass options. Also, horribly strong Terran all ins (ie 1/1/1 or marine hellion drops)
Just some quick theorycrafting how avilo's changes would affect Tosses options: -Going DTs? Well with old cost and no engibay-turrets? Reduced to an all in that needs to do significant damage (which it should not do anymore). -Oracles? - slow oracles with turrets available on the fly basically make it the same as going DTs. on the other hand: -Tanks sieging your natural and cloaked banshees attacking your mineral line will be painfull without 14 vision range msc especially when you consider that tanks then would do bonus damage versus shields. This would be even stronger than in wol since tanks don't need siege mode research and cloak is considerably cheaper than it was back then.
All in all, the game would be back at super passive protoss turtle play with no aggressive options apart from heavy gateway all ins (only them being a lot weaker with widow mines, free siege mode and stuff)
I may reiterate that I don't find any one of those changes unreasonable in itself but they for sure add up and make mech play a round thing against Toss, while leaving Toss in a situation that reminds me very much of WoL and I don't want to think about the implications those change would have for PvZ.
You seem to have missed the point where I said that, Protoss is already extremely safe against terran aggression while being able to put on a load of pressure themselves or even kill, one of those has to be addressed. Its either toss defensive power needs to be toned down, to the point where terran can put on enough aggression to force the toss to potentially spend more gas on being safe (thus slowing their tech and reducing their greed), or the toss pressures need to be severely nerfed.
In the context of Toss still keeping their MSC defensive powers mostly intact (which is what this balance patch proposes), then having all the toss offensive options nerfed is a fair and justified. If you want toss to keep all its offensive toys then propose a nerf to the MSC defensive abilities, you can't have both extreme safety early game and extreme offensive power with no risk reward involved, that's not how an RTS is supposed to work.
I find it amusing you mention banshees, they are hard countered by almost anything in the protoss arsenal. If toss goes SG for quick oracle then they will be able to also make 1 phoenix to shut down the aggression. If they opened Robo they can get an obs and stalkers to chase it away.
Now, if siege tanks are sieging your nat, then you somehow lost your MSC early or threw down all your time warps willy nilly, which equates to you making a serious mistake and not having any Photon Overcharge, and if that results in you getting your nat nexus sieged then you fucked up royally and deserve to lose or got outplayed and still deserve to lose.
Even with Avilo's proposed changes the 1/1/1 is still trash, a simple move out with basic GW units and MSC just kills it, time warps prevent marines from kiting back and allow zealots to close the gap on marines and tanks. And even if the terran gets close to the nat a simple PO will keep the tanks out of range long enough to get Colossus. If you opened with SG its even more one sided because oracles can provide vision via revelation, can be used as as fighting units in conjuncture with GW units, way earlier I should add, leading to the quick destruction of the push, you can also add Phoenix in to kill banshees, much more effective then stalkers.
There is also no way a Terran player meching will push at you in the early game. A tank based army is very gas expensive, if he invested into that for a early push he is sacrificing infrastructure or upgrades, or both, and you gain a lead there, + he is sacrificing safety since he might not leave anything behind, and the mech army is still extremely fragile early game. So if he pushes with a tank based mech army at you early game and you didn't see it in time and crush it, then you, again made a very grave mistake and still deserve to lose.
And if its tanks sieging your nat late game, then the game is over anyway and you are just delaying the inevitable.
The reason I am using such an aggressive and condescending tone is because a lot of posters here have earned it, throwing around speculation with nearly no analysis behind it, they don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly.
The reason I am using such an aggressive and condescending tone is because a lot of posters here have earned it, throwing around speculation with nearly no analysis behind it, they don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly.
Are you not doing the same?
Both yours and avilo's arguments have nearly no analysis behind it, you don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly. Indeed, you have earned such an aggressive and condescending tone.
On February 01 2014 22:29 Destructicon wrote: Damn, the amount off ignorance and hate being flung at Avilo is astounding.
Almost all the suggestions he has made are very sensible and much needed changes.
The problem with Protoss, the real imbalance is that they have way too many options, options that, also limit the options terrans can do. TvP late game isn't easy for Terran, but it isn't completely impossible either, you just need both T and P to enter it on even footing.
At the moment terrans can't enter it on even footing. The early aggressive options of toss, Oracles, Blink all-in, DTs etc, force the terran into using very safe and conservative builds. However because the builds are so safe protoss exploits them with extremely greedy builds, that can't be countered almost at all, because the MSC just gives way, way too much safety. Terran is thus stuck between a rock and a hard place, they can't be aggressive at all, because of MSC, but they also can't be too greedy, because of all the lethal pressure toss has.
Something has to give, its either the toss lose some of their defensive power, so terran can actually be aggressive and force toss to be less greedy, or toss itself loses some of its aggressive options so that terran can be more greedy and enter the late game even. The logic here is perfectly fine, I only see outbreaks of QQ from protosses, fearful they will actually have to put in some effort to play.
I see nothing wrong reverting the oracle speed, it was a dumb buff to begin with, it was contested and complained against since the very beginning, even protoss pros agreed that it was a bad change. The oracle limits terrans build order choices, you always have to play safe, you always need to take them into account, because if you don't you just die to it, there is no middle ground there.
I also don't see anything wrong with reducing the sight range of MSC. The MSC already breaks so many rules in the game, its a scouting tool, army support/utility and defensive tool, its too versatile, it has too much, it does too much. The MSC should never have been made so strong, its high time two of its utilities got cut, at the very least the sight range should be reduced so that terran can't have a free scout and free vision of the high ground, with zero counterplay to it.
DT Shrine cost was also stupid. Protoss is already very safe because of MSC, it stands to reason then that if defense is so cheep for them then their aggressive options, at least early game, should be more expensive, to balance things out, so they can't actually put on aggression while still staying 100% safe. You don't see any creative DT strats either, they are used as a gimmick early game to gain a huge lead, or they are used as a reliable harass tool late game in all MUs, the cost of it won't nerf it in the late game, but it will tone down the huge number of possible game ending aggressive options toss has in the early game.
Finally, I have it makes 0 sense anymore for Missile turret to require a engy bay to build, the missile turret can only shoot up, it also costs 100 damn minerals and you need at least 1 per mineral line to be safe. Spore was even changed to not require Evo chambers any more, I don't see why Missile turrets can't get the same treatment. I'm not sure about the sensor tower, I think that should still require an ebay.
I also agree with the armory change, it doesn't affect any unit balance, it helps with one of the core problems of mech, setting up infrastructure, because for the longest time you'll be working off 2 base and have to spend gas on upgrades, infrastructure (factories, SP and all their addons) as well as army, and you can't do it all at once off just 440 gas per minute, which leaves the mech army player with glaring weaknesses, since all of the above cost shit loads of gas.
Quite frankly I just think most of you are hating on Avilo for no good reason, almost none of you presented any counter arguments as to why his suggestions are bad, you only vaguely touch on how it should, supposedly, break TvP by swinging it in terran favor, but I've yet to see explanations as to how that would happen.
All I see is mindless bashing and bronze league logic used to counter quite sensible, actually very conservative proposals.
Edit: And since I seem to have went off topic slightly, I hate all the proposed changes, the only good one is the time warp change, but it doesn't do enough, all the changes are bad because they fail to address the appropriate issue in the appropriate way, but I already explained why in the last thread.
It's funny that you start your post with claiming that shit was flung at someone yet then you yourself resort to condescending or plain insulting language.
The problem with avilo's quite conservative proposals is, that in combination they are not conservative proposals anymore. It is a onesided approach to the issue that results in all problems for Terran solved while Toss would be where they were in the era of the infamous 1/1/1 with the added benefit of banshee buffs. Back then, the complains of Tosses were similar to those of Terrans today: lack of scouting info, variety of Terran harass options and macro follow ups as well a lack of harass options. Also, horribly strong Terran all ins (ie 1/1/1 or marine hellion drops)
Just some quick theorycrafting how avilo's changes would affect Tosses options: -Going DTs? Well with old cost and no engibay-turrets? Reduced to an all in that needs to do significant damage (which it should not do anymore). -Oracles? - slow oracles with turrets available on the fly basically make it the same as going DTs. on the other hand: -Tanks sieging your natural and cloaked banshees attacking your mineral line will be painfull without 14 vision range msc especially when you consider that tanks then would do bonus damage versus shields. This would be even stronger than in wol since tanks don't need siege mode research and cloak is considerably cheaper than it was back then.
All in all, the game would be back at super passive protoss turtle play with no aggressive options apart from heavy gateway all ins (only them being a lot weaker with widow mines, free siege mode and stuff)
I may reiterate that I don't find any one of those changes unreasonable in itself but they for sure add up and make mech play a round thing against Toss, while leaving Toss in a situation that reminds me very much of WoL and I don't want to think about the implications those change would have for PvZ.
You seem to have missed the point where I said that, Protoss is already extremely safe against terran aggression while being able to put on a load of pressure themselves or even kill, one of those has to be addressed. Its either toss defensive power needs to be toned down, to the point where terran can put on enough aggression to force the toss to potentially spend more gas on being safe (thus slowing their tech and reducing their greed), or the toss pressures need to be severely nerfed.
In the context of Toss still keeping their MSC defensive powers mostly intact (which is what this balance patch proposes), then having all the toss offensive options nerfed is a fair and justified. If you want toss to keep all its offensive toys then propose a nerf to the MSC defensive abilities, you can't have both extreme safety early game and extreme offensive power with no risk reward involved, that's not how an RTS is supposed to work.
I find it amusing you mention banshees, they are hard countered by almost anything in the protoss arsenal. If toss goes SG for quick oracle then they will be able to also make 1 phoenix to shut down the aggression. If they opened Robo they can get an obs and stalkers to chase it away.
Now, if siege tanks are sieging your nat, then you somehow lost your MSC early or threw down all your time warps willy nilly, which equates to you making a serious mistake and not having any Photon Overcharge, and if that results in you getting your nat nexus sieged then you fucked up royally and deserve to lose or got outplayed and still deserve to lose.
Even with Avilo's proposed changes the 1/1/1 is still trash, a simple move out with basic GW units and MSC just kills it, time warps prevent marines from kiting back and allow zealots to close the gap on marines and tanks. And even if the terran gets close to the nat a simple PO will keep the tanks out of range long enough to get Colossus. If you opened with SG its even more one sided because oracles can provide vision via revelation, can be used as as fighting units in conjuncture with GW units, way earlier I should add, leading to the quick destruction of the push, you can also add Phoenix in to kill banshees, much more effective then stalkers.
There is also no way a Terran player meching will push at you in the early game. A tank based army is very gas expensive, if he invested into that for a early push he is sacrificing infrastructure or upgrades, or both, and you gain a lead there, + he is sacrificing safety since he might not leave anything behind, and the mech army is still extremely fragile early game. So if he pushes with a tank based mech army at you early game and you didn't see it in time and crush it, then you, again made a very grave mistake and still deserve to lose.
And if its tanks sieging your nat late game, then the game is over anyway and you are just delaying the inevitable.
The reason I am using such an aggressive and condescending tone is because a lot of posters here have earned it, throwing around speculation with nearly no analysis behind it, they don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly.
I have not missed your point, I am just talking about avilo's proposals that you defended with regard to actually balancing and fixing the game. I am not proposing to keep the game as it is. I even agree that you have to somehow adjust the protoss aggressive and defensive options. However, taking away all the aggressive options completely can't be the solution. It might be fair if you want one side to be super passive and one having all the options but then we would just invert the roles in TvP instead of fixing the MU.
Also, you mentioning how amazing stargate vs 1/1/1 or banshees in general is. However, with avilo's changes going through, toss would not open stargate anymore since it would be almost useless against bio play.
And the power of the Msc and nexus cannon against tank based attacks is not that the nexus shoots but rather that the msc provides vision that is greater than the attack range of the tank.only that way you can actually protect the nexus from being shot at. This obviously is only a early/early-mid game problem, yet this is the stage that needs to be addressed in current tvp.
Finally, I am rather astonished about what you say about tank pushes. with the proposed changes,toss would be forced to play very passive to be safe while Terran now gets free siege, cheaper cloak and a cheaper armory while being able to build emergency turrents without the need for an engibay. Thus Terran mech pushes would hit harder and/or earlier with a lot less draw backs.
Hydras are a trash unit, a bad expensive version of roach that shoots up. Needs cost reduction. Tempest change is ridiculous, why would tempests be buffed? Why would anything be buffed in the protoss units
On February 02 2014 01:24 Loccstana wrote: Please give Terran a magically unit that for 50 energy can instant kill half of all Protoss units. This would make the game so interesting.
there is a free ghost ugrade slot now! It could be named Neutron Round:
Energy: 50 Range: 10 Radius: 2.5 Damage: 100 Hotkey: N The Ghost fires an Neutron Round that removes up to 100 HP from every unit within the AoE.
On February 02 2014 01:24 Loccstana wrote: Please give Terran a magically unit that for 50 energy can instant kill half of all Protoss units. This would make the game so interesting.
there is a free ghost ugrade slot now! It could be named Neutron Round:
Energy: 50 Range: 10 Radius: 2.5 Damage: 100 Hotkey: N The Ghost fires an Neutron Round that removes up to 100 HP from every unit within the AoE.
It's funny because that's roughly what EMP does and that doesn't help much. PLEASE MAEK THIS SHIT STRONGER!
the no vision proposition for msc is actually legit, remember the wol blink all-in? now it comes without the cost of robo-obs but instead the insane mothership-core with 20 vision and sick dps, sick speed + amazing tripple timewarps.
On February 02 2014 01:24 Loccstana wrote: Please give Terran a magically unit that for 50 energy can instant kill half of all Protoss units. This would make the game so interesting.
there is a free ghost ugrade slot now! It could be named Neutron Round:
Energy: 50 Range: 10 Radius: 2.5 Damage: 100 Hotkey: N The Ghost fires an Neutron Round that removes up to 100 HP from every unit within the AoE.
It's funny because that's roughly what EMP does and that doesn't help much. PLEASE MAEK THIS SHIT STRONGER!
Alright, alright: Neutron Round: Energy: 50 Range: 10 Radius: 2.5 Damage: 100 (ignores shields) Hotkey: N The Ghost fires an Neutron Round that directly removes up to 100 HP from every unit within the AoE.
The reason I am using such an aggressive and condescending tone is because a lot of posters here have earned it, throwing around speculation with nearly no analysis behind it, they don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly.
Are you not doing the same?
Both yours and avilo's arguments have nearly no analysis behind it, you don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly. Indeed, you have earned such an aggressive and condescending tone.
Wat.
They have two incredibly detailed posts stating specific reasons why these things are problems. What kind of analysis are you looking for? The usual bullshit that gets posted here?
Herp Derp Derp 52%-48% winrate, Herp Derp Derp MC vs MMA Herp Derp Derp Derp
I highly prefer people like these guys clearly addressing the issue which is as clear as fucking daylight about TvP problems, and then suggesting some changes.
The problem is now a days people see the word avilo... scroll past his post and reply with
On February 02 2014 00:45 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On February 02 2014 00:33 Destructicon wrote:
The reason I am using such an aggressive and condescending tone is because a lot of posters here have earned it, throwing around speculation with nearly no analysis behind it, they don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly.
Are you not doing the same?
Both yours and avilo's arguments have nearly no analysis behind it, you don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly. Indeed, you have earned such an aggressive and condescending tone.
Wat.
They have two incredibly detailed posts stating specific reasons why these things are problems. What kind of analysis are you looking for? The usual bullshit that gets posted here?
Herp Derp Derp 52%-48% winrate, Herp Derp Derp MC vs MMA Herp Derp Derp Derp
I highly prefer people like these guys clearly addressing the issue which is as clear as fucking daylight about TvP problems, and then suggesting some changes.
The problem is now a days people see the word avilo... scroll past his post and reply with
The reason I am using such an aggressive and condescending tone is because a lot of posters here have earned it, throwing around speculation with nearly no analysis behind it, they don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly.
Are you not doing the same?
Both yours and avilo's arguments have nearly no analysis behind it, you don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly. Indeed, you have earned such an aggressive and condescending tone.
No analysis, really?
So, terran has only two viable builds, 14 CC, which is extremely risk, and map dependent, because it can easily be killed by a small poke from the zealot, stalker and MSC. Thus terran don't elect to go that route.
Terran now goes for a 12 Rax, 12 Gas, reaper into reactor build where they pull out of gas at 100 and get a CC, 1 more rax for safety and a safety ebay at around 4:30 for defense. You don't have much choice in this matter, the reactor is mandatory, if you don't get it you risk dying to pokes and oracles, you can't go 3 CC because the risk of mentioned pokes, oracles + blink can outright kill you if you do it.
You also have to get a safety turret at your nat at around the 7 min mark, just in case he goes DTs. That all adds up to a lot of resources spent on just being safe. As a terran you also can't go double engi upgrades early game, because that dedicates too much resources into tech that won't help you survive the early game aggression, and at best just keeps you on even footing with the protoss, it also potentially delays your 10 min push out.
If you elect to go factory after the 1st Rax, you are, sacrificing the mid game tempo for potential early game damage. You delay your stim by a lot by investing 100 into a factory, 100 into say a SP and 100 more into a medivac. You shouldn't go Banshee, because if he went Robo he will have a obs to shut it down, if he went SG he will probably scout it and just adds a phoenix and shuts it down even harder. So a better option is hellions or WM drps, however a nice sim city will mostly limit hellion mobility, the PO + MSC is enough to shut it down by killing the medivac and hellions, if you went WM drop then the worst case scenario for the protoss is that one burrows in his mineral line, which means he just has to pull back probes every 40 seconds, sac 1 and then just wait for detection, often enough the WM will just die. And that sort of attack needs to do a lot of damage, because you delay stim for so long you need to catch up in some other area.
Meanwhile Protoss still has a strong array of options. They can go GW expand safely, 11/11 is nearly obsolete, since most of the time the Protoss just needs to micro his stalkers and MSC until he has enough energy for PO and then he pushes it back.
You also can't bunker and isolate the nat for the same reason, the toss can just PO the nexus and it will destroy the bunker and kill the marines before the Nexus is destroyed.
Any bio push before medivacs is a suicide mission, FF and time warp mean the units will die. If you try to run into the main they can just FF or TW the ramp and they force you to fight the POed Nexus, that will just kill your units.
So terrans options of aggression are limited and gimmicky.
Meanwhile protoss has tons of options. There is the aforementioned zealot, stalker, MSC poke, which by default forces the terran into a certain path, even just the threat of it the attack isn't even all-in, it still is possible to go Nexus behind it, toss cans till be greedy, but the potential damage this can do is massive. Then there is the proxy or even regular oracles, they can hit at around the 5:30 min mark, they provide excellent scouting, their speed allows them to get off kills every so often, adding up in time, and just the threat and presence of them again further forces terran down a very narrow path.
Lastly there is the 2 base blink pressure, I say pressure because its no longer all-in at all. The Protoss still gets 2nd Nexus behind this and can fully saturate it. The build can start off 1 gas but gets a 2nd one later, so it initially looks like a normal build. The Twilight starts building at around 4:30 and the attack hits at around 6:30 to 7:00.
To hold this build the terran needs around 3-4 bunkers, 2 at the nat. You can't lose the nat as terran, if you lose the nat you lose the game you need bunkers in the main at key points so the toss can't just jump in uncontested. Additionally you need 3 raxes, 2 with Techlabs, you need Concussive shells and constant marauder production, the marauder production, SCVs pulled to repair cuts into economy and delays the factory, SP, medivacs and thus any aggression and potential for counter attacks.
Again, just the potential for this, is enough to force the terran to stick to a very safe build, with nearly no possibility to be greedy or aggressive themselves.
Behind this the protoss can go almost anything, they can go double forge upgrades, and they will gain a upgrade lead, because as a terran you can't be safe and also invest into double upgrades to stay safe. They could be going storm and/or colossus, and both require specific answers by the terran to deal with, and the protoss will usually be ahead in that tech, with terran having to respond, which makes it even harder to put on aggression successfully. Lastly the toss could also just as well be getting a 3rd, charge, more GW for safety.
Now, lets look at the proposed changes from Avilo and what they do in the context of TvP.
The MSC vision change is the biggest one. It allows terran to defend their high ground better against pokes, it makes the blink all-in weaker, because the MSC has to get in range to provide vision, and thus becomes vulnerable to being sniped.
Does the vision change adversely affect Protoss scouting? No, not really, Protoss now has hallucinations to scout, and if the protoss is forced to make a few sentries to scout its still a net gain in all MUs for the other races, it means the toss is being less greedy and has to dedicate more resources for scouting, zerg already dedicates a bit if they send in overlords and sack them to scout, terran does as well with reaper scouts.
The overall effect of a vision change is a positive one because it cuts into the greed of protoss and allows more breathing room for terran, while also shifting the risk, reward ratio of a blink all-in a bit more in the terran favor, in the context of protoss already putting on so much indirect pressure I'd say this is a good change overall.
How about the turret change? Well spores are anti air defenses that from zerg that already don't require evo chambers any more, at least from a design standpoint it makes sense to normalize the races a bit and provide fair treatment to all of them by having their anti-air not have any perquisites. Now strictly in the context of TvP its a good change because, the terran has to dedicate less resources early game to be ultra safe vs oracles, thus they could maybe be a bit greedier or more flexible in builds, allowing for more variety and potentially more options, again another positive effect.
How about the oracle speed nerf. Well, we all appreciate units that you can gain value from, but the oracle is the extreme end of it, it is too efficient now. The speed and acceleration being reverted would mean there is actually a small chance the protoss terran would have more reaction time to defend against it, its a net positive.
Does it adversely affect protoss? Not directly, the protoss is still very safe even if they invest into oracle, they still gain good scouting info, they can still gain some kills if they are diligent using it, but now they can actually lose the oracle if they are caught off guard, which is how it should be.
What does it do for terran? It alleviates another source of indirect early game pressure, allowing even more freedom of build orders for terrans, perhaps it might open up enough room for the terrans to actually be greedy again and go 3 CC against protoss and enter the mid and early game on even footing.
Does the collective sum of nerfing/reverting the above adversely affect protoss? Not really, because in this context the terrans own aggressive options are being already weak vs Protoss. Banshee harass is trash, hellions and WM drops are easy to shut down, medivacless pushes are suicide missions, all terran pressure/aggression either have a low chance of success in dealing damage or a huge risk of the attacking units dying. In the context of protoss still being so safe, it makes sense that protoss aggressive options being weaker as well, its ok for oracles to be worst off when banshees are bad, its fine for blink all-ins to be a risk when hellion/WM drops are a risk.
It amuses me greatly that you seem to think I'm not doing any analysis, however you should really put some effort into at least trying to counter my arguments and logic, point for point. It looks to me like you are calling me out but aren't doing anything to explain why I'm wrong.
I'm going to be very delicate about the Hydralisk change. I don't want to use banned terminology on TL especially in a balance discussion.
However, I feel like halving the gas cost of Hydras is only going to destroy ZvT and ZvP. If Hydras suddenly become so gas-efficient that you can devise a build order using a generator and amass them in a 200/200 timing with perhaps 1/1 upgrades, speed and range upgrades, then you are going to see two dead matchups.
We've already seen how powerful Roach Hydra Infestor can be in ZvT especially in the hands of a good player and if gas costs are halved, that means reinforcing with a good mix of roaches and hydras is much easier and there will be more Infestors on the field when the Zerg is in a good situation.
In ZvP, we're just going to see Hydralisk busts, perhaps combined with drop aggression. Before, that was too costly to really pull off. Now? BRING ON THE LISKS!!!!
Good changes. Honestly, I'm kind of astounded people are angry about them. Especially the Tempest buff. I mean really? It's not going to make Protoss stronger. It's going to make another tactic viable. Sort of like buffing mech up to MMM strength in TvP.
Now I do think the changes are conservative. Photon overcharge and the Mothership Core were just slightly nerfed, and I wish Blizzard had been a little bolder, but I don't begrudge careful balancing. I would have liked to see something like A slight Damage buff to Photon Overcharge but ONLY be able to do it ONCE PER NEXUS.
On February 01 2014 22:29 Destructicon wrote: Damn, the amount off ignorance and hate being flung at Avilo is astounding.
Almost all the suggestions he has made are very sensible and much needed changes.
The problem with Protoss, the real imbalance is that they have way too many options, options that, also limit the options terrans can do. TvP late game isn't easy for Terran, but it isn't completely impossible either, you just need both T and P to enter it on even footing.
At the moment terrans can't enter it on even footing. The early aggressive options of toss, Oracles, Blink all-in, DTs etc, force the terran into using very safe and conservative builds. However because the builds are so safe protoss exploits them with extremely greedy builds, that can't be countered almost at all, because the MSC just gives way, way too much safety. Terran is thus stuck between a rock and a hard place, they can't be aggressive at all, because of MSC, but they also can't be too greedy, because of all the lethal pressure toss has.
Something has to give, its either the toss lose some of their defensive power, so terran can actually be aggressive and force toss to be less greedy, or toss itself loses some of its aggressive options so that terran can be more greedy and enter the late game even. The logic here is perfectly fine, I only see outbreaks of QQ from protosses, fearful they will actually have to put in some effort to play.
I see nothing wrong reverting the oracle speed, it was a dumb buff to begin with, it was contested and complained against since the very beginning, even protoss pros agreed that it was a bad change. The oracle limits terrans build order choices, you always have to play safe, you always need to take them into account, because if you don't you just die to it, there is no middle ground there.
I also don't see anything wrong with reducing the sight range of MSC. The MSC already breaks so many rules in the game, its a scouting tool, army support/utility and defensive tool, its too versatile, it has too much, it does too much. The MSC should never have been made so strong, its high time two of its utilities got cut, at the very least the sight range should be reduced so that terran can't have a free scout and free vision of the high ground, with zero counterplay to it.
DT Shrine cost was also stupid. Protoss is already very safe because of MSC, it stands to reason then that if defense is so cheep for them then their aggressive options, at least early game, should be more expensive, to balance things out, so they can't actually put on aggression while still staying 100% safe. You don't see any creative DT strats either, they are used as a gimmick early game to gain a huge lead, or they are used as a reliable harass tool late game in all MUs, the cost of it won't nerf it in the late game, but it will tone down the huge number of possible game ending aggressive options toss has in the early game.
Finally, I have it makes 0 sense anymore for Missile turret to require a engy bay to build, the missile turret can only shoot up, it also costs 100 damn minerals and you need at least 1 per mineral line to be safe. Spore was even changed to not require Evo chambers any more, I don't see why Missile turrets can't get the same treatment. I'm not sure about the sensor tower, I think that should still require an ebay.
I also agree with the armory change, it doesn't affect any unit balance, it helps with one of the core problems of mech, setting up infrastructure, because for the longest time you'll be working off 2 base and have to spend gas on upgrades, infrastructure (factories, SP and all their addons) as well as army, and you can't do it all at once off just 440 gas per minute, which leaves the mech army player with glaring weaknesses, since all of the above cost shit loads of gas.
Quite frankly I just think most of you are hating on Avilo for no good reason, almost none of you presented any counter arguments as to why his suggestions are bad, you only vaguely touch on how it should, supposedly, break TvP by swinging it in terran favor, but I've yet to see explanations as to how that would happen.
All I see is mindless bashing and bronze league logic used to counter quite sensible, actually very conservative proposals.
Edit: And since I seem to have went off topic slightly, I hate all the proposed changes, the only good one is the time warp change, but it doesn't do enough, all the changes are bad because they fail to address the appropriate issue in the appropriate way, but I already explained why in the last thread.
It's funny that you start your post with claiming that shit was flung at someone yet then you yourself resort to condescending or plain insulting language.
The problem with avilo's quite conservative proposals is, that in combination they are not conservative proposals anymore. It is a onesided approach to the issue that results in all problems for Terran solved while Toss would be where they were in the era of the infamous 1/1/1 with the added benefit of banshee buffs. Back then, the complains of Tosses were similar to those of Terrans today: lack of scouting info, variety of Terran harass options and macro follow ups as well a lack of harass options. Also, horribly strong Terran all ins (ie 1/1/1 or marine hellion drops)
Just some quick theorycrafting how avilo's changes would affect Tosses options: -Going DTs? Well with old cost and no engibay-turrets? Reduced to an all in that needs to do significant damage (which it should not do anymore). -Oracles? - slow oracles with turrets available on the fly basically make it the same as going DTs. on the other hand: -Tanks sieging your natural and cloaked banshees attacking your mineral line will be painfull without 14 vision range msc especially when you consider that tanks then would do bonus damage versus shields. This would be even stronger than in wol since tanks don't need siege mode research and cloak is considerably cheaper than it was back then.
All in all, the game would be back at super passive protoss turtle play with no aggressive options apart from heavy gateway all ins (only them being a lot weaker with widow mines, free siege mode and stuff)
I may reiterate that I don't find any one of those changes unreasonable in itself but they for sure add up and make mech play a round thing against Toss, while leaving Toss in a situation that reminds me very much of WoL and I don't want to think about the implications those change would have for PvZ.
You seem to have missed the point where I said that, Protoss is already extremely safe against terran aggression while being able to put on a load of pressure themselves or even kill, one of those has to be addressed. Its either toss defensive power needs to be toned down, to the point where terran can put on enough aggression to force the toss to potentially spend more gas on being safe (thus slowing their tech and reducing their greed), or the toss pressures need to be severely nerfed.
In the context of Toss still keeping their MSC defensive powers mostly intact (which is what this balance patch proposes), then having all the toss offensive options nerfed is a fair and justified. If you want toss to keep all its offensive toys then propose a nerf to the MSC defensive abilities, you can't have both extreme safety early game and extreme offensive power with no risk reward involved, that's not how an RTS is supposed to work.
I find it amusing you mention banshees, they are hard countered by almost anything in the protoss arsenal. If toss goes SG for quick oracle then they will be able to also make 1 phoenix to shut down the aggression. If they opened Robo they can get an obs and stalkers to chase it away.
Now, if siege tanks are sieging your nat, then you somehow lost your MSC early or threw down all your time warps willy nilly, which equates to you making a serious mistake and not having any Photon Overcharge, and if that results in you getting your nat nexus sieged then you fucked up royally and deserve to lose or got outplayed and still deserve to lose.
Even with Avilo's proposed changes the 1/1/1 is still trash, a simple move out with basic GW units and MSC just kills it, time warps prevent marines from kiting back and allow zealots to close the gap on marines and tanks. And even if the terran gets close to the nat a simple PO will keep the tanks out of range long enough to get Colossus. If you opened with SG its even more one sided because oracles can provide vision via revelation, can be used as as fighting units in conjuncture with GW units, way earlier I should add, leading to the quick destruction of the push, you can also add Phoenix in to kill banshees, much more effective then stalkers.
There is also no way a Terran player meching will push at you in the early game. A tank based army is very gas expensive, if he invested into that for a early push he is sacrificing infrastructure or upgrades, or both, and you gain a lead there, + he is sacrificing safety since he might not leave anything behind, and the mech army is still extremely fragile early game. So if he pushes with a tank based mech army at you early game and you didn't see it in time and crush it, then you, again made a very grave mistake and still deserve to lose.
And if its tanks sieging your nat late game, then the game is over anyway and you are just delaying the inevitable.
The reason I am using such an aggressive and condescending tone is because a lot of posters here have earned it, throwing around speculation with nearly no analysis behind it, they don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly.
I have not missed your point, I am just talking about avilo's proposals that you defended with regard to actually balancing and fixing the game. I am not proposing to keep the game as it is. I even agree that you have to somehow adjust the protoss aggressive and defensive options. However, taking away all the aggressive options completely can't be the solution. It might be fair if you want one side to be super passive and one having all the options but then we would just invert the roles in TvP instead of fixing the MU.
Also, you mentioning how amazing stargate vs 1/1/1 or banshees in general is. However, with avilo's changes going through, toss would not open stargate anymore since it would be almost useless against bio play.
And the power of the Msc and nexus cannon against tank based attacks is not that the nexus shoots but rather that the msc provides vision that is greater than the attack range of the tank.only that way you can actually protect the nexus from being shot at. This obviously is only a early/early-mid game problem, yet this is the stage that needs to be addressed in current tvp.
Finally, I am rather astonished about what you say about tank pushes. with the proposed changes,toss would be forced to play very passive to be safe while Terran now gets free siege, cheaper cloak and a cheaper armory while being able to build emergency turrents without the need for an engibay. Thus Terran mech pushes would hit harder and/or earlier with a lot less draw backs.
What? The power of the msc vs 1/1/1 tank pushes is the vision not Overcharge?
I'm sorry, but with less vision it can accomplish exactly the same, PO is 13 range, MSC vision is 11, Tanks 13, Vikings 9, Marines 5. You can still provide vision ezpz no risk exactly like vikings in tvt do. Msc vision reduce changes NOTHING in Tank vs PO Ne us.
On February 02 2014 00:45 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On February 02 2014 00:33 Destructicon wrote:
The reason I am using such an aggressive and condescending tone is because a lot of posters here have earned it, throwing around speculation with nearly no analysis behind it, they don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly.
Are you not doing the same?
Both yours and avilo's arguments have nearly no analysis behind it, you don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly. Indeed, you have earned such an aggressive and condescending tone.
Wat.
They have two incredibly detailed posts stating specific reasons why these things are problems. What kind of analysis are you looking for? The usual bullshit that gets posted here?
Herp Derp Derp 52%-48% winrate, Herp Derp Derp MC vs MMA Herp Derp Derp Derp
I highly prefer people like these guys clearly addressing the issue which is as clear as fucking daylight about TvP problems, and then suggesting some changes.
The problem is now a days people see the word avilo... scroll past his post and reply with
On February 01 2014 22:29 Destructicon wrote: Damn, the amount off ignorance and hate being flung at Avilo is astounding.
Almost all the suggestions he has made are very sensible and much needed changes.
The problem with Protoss, the real imbalance is that they have way too many options, options that, also limit the options terrans can do. TvP late game isn't easy for Terran, but it isn't completely impossible either, you just need both T and P to enter it on even footing.
At the moment terrans can't enter it on even footing. The early aggressive options of toss, Oracles, Blink all-in, DTs etc, force the terran into using very safe and conservative builds. However because the builds are so safe protoss exploits them with extremely greedy builds, that can't be countered almost at all, because the MSC just gives way, way too much safety. Terran is thus stuck between a rock and a hard place, they can't be aggressive at all, because of MSC, but they also can't be too greedy, because of all the lethal pressure toss has.
Something has to give, its either the toss lose some of their defensive power, so terran can actually be aggressive and force toss to be less greedy, or toss itself loses some of its aggressive options so that terran can be more greedy and enter the late game even. The logic here is perfectly fine, I only see outbreaks of QQ from protosses, fearful they will actually have to put in some effort to play.
I see nothing wrong reverting the oracle speed, it was a dumb buff to begin with, it was contested and complained against since the very beginning, even protoss pros agreed that it was a bad change. The oracle limits terrans build order choices, you always have to play safe, you always need to take them into account, because if you don't you just die to it, there is no middle ground there.
I also don't see anything wrong with reducing the sight range of MSC. The MSC already breaks so many rules in the game, its a scouting tool, army support/utility and defensive tool, its too versatile, it has too much, it does too much. The MSC should never have been made so strong, its high time two of its utilities got cut, at the very least the sight range should be reduced so that terran can't have a free scout and free vision of the high ground, with zero counterplay to it.
DT Shrine cost was also stupid. Protoss is already very safe because of MSC, it stands to reason then that if defense is so cheep for them then their aggressive options, at least early game, should be more expensive, to balance things out, so they can't actually put on aggression while still staying 100% safe. You don't see any creative DT strats either, they are used as a gimmick early game to gain a huge lead, or they are used as a reliable harass tool late game in all MUs, the cost of it won't nerf it in the late game, but it will tone down the huge number of possible game ending aggressive options toss has in the early game.
Finally, I have it makes 0 sense anymore for Missile turret to require a engy bay to build, the missile turret can only shoot up, it also costs 100 damn minerals and you need at least 1 per mineral line to be safe. Spore was even changed to not require Evo chambers any more, I don't see why Missile turrets can't get the same treatment. I'm not sure about the sensor tower, I think that should still require an ebay.
I also agree with the armory change, it doesn't affect any unit balance, it helps with one of the core problems of mech, setting up infrastructure, because for the longest time you'll be working off 2 base and have to spend gas on upgrades, infrastructure (factories, SP and all their addons) as well as army, and you can't do it all at once off just 440 gas per minute, which leaves the mech army player with glaring weaknesses, since all of the above cost shit loads of gas.
Quite frankly I just think most of you are hating on Avilo for no good reason, almost none of you presented any counter arguments as to why his suggestions are bad, you only vaguely touch on how it should, supposedly, break TvP by swinging it in terran favor, but I've yet to see explanations as to how that would happen.
All I see is mindless bashing and bronze league logic used to counter quite sensible, actually very conservative proposals.
Edit: And since I seem to have went off topic slightly, I hate all the proposed changes, the only good one is the time warp change, but it doesn't do enough, all the changes are bad because they fail to address the appropriate issue in the appropriate way, but I already explained why in the last thread.
It's funny that you start your post with claiming that shit was flung at someone yet then you yourself resort to condescending or plain insulting language.
The problem with avilo's quite conservative proposals is, that in combination they are not conservative proposals anymore. It is a onesided approach to the issue that results in all problems for Terran solved while Toss would be where they were in the era of the infamous 1/1/1 with the added benefit of banshee buffs. Back then, the complains of Tosses were similar to those of Terrans today: lack of scouting info, variety of Terran harass options and macro follow ups as well a lack of harass options. Also, horribly strong Terran all ins (ie 1/1/1 or marine hellion drops)
Just some quick theorycrafting how avilo's changes would affect Tosses options: -Going DTs? Well with old cost and no engibay-turrets? Reduced to an all in that needs to do significant damage (which it should not do anymore). -Oracles? - slow oracles with turrets available on the fly basically make it the same as going DTs. on the other hand: -Tanks sieging your natural and cloaked banshees attacking your mineral line will be painfull without 14 vision range msc especially when you consider that tanks then would do bonus damage versus shields. This would be even stronger than in wol since tanks don't need siege mode research and cloak is considerably cheaper than it was back then.
All in all, the game would be back at super passive protoss turtle play with no aggressive options apart from heavy gateway all ins (only them being a lot weaker with widow mines, free siege mode and stuff)
I may reiterate that I don't find any one of those changes unreasonable in itself but they for sure add up and make mech play a round thing against Toss, while leaving Toss in a situation that reminds me very much of WoL and I don't want to think about the implications those change would have for PvZ.
You seem to have missed the point where I said that, Protoss is already extremely safe against terran aggression while being able to put on a load of pressure themselves or even kill, one of those has to be addressed. Its either toss defensive power needs to be toned down, to the point where terran can put on enough aggression to force the toss to potentially spend more gas on being safe (thus slowing their tech and reducing their greed), or the toss pressures need to be severely nerfed.
In the context of Toss still keeping their MSC defensive powers mostly intact (which is what this balance patch proposes), then having all the toss offensive options nerfed is a fair and justified. If you want toss to keep all its offensive toys then propose a nerf to the MSC defensive abilities, you can't have both extreme safety early game and extreme offensive power with no risk reward involved, that's not how an RTS is supposed to work.
I find it amusing you mention banshees, they are hard countered by almost anything in the protoss arsenal. If toss goes SG for quick oracle then they will be able to also make 1 phoenix to shut down the aggression. If they opened Robo they can get an obs and stalkers to chase it away.
Now, if siege tanks are sieging your nat, then you somehow lost your MSC early or threw down all your time warps willy nilly, which equates to you making a serious mistake and not having any Photon Overcharge, and if that results in you getting your nat nexus sieged then you fucked up royally and deserve to lose or got outplayed and still deserve to lose.
Even with Avilo's proposed changes the 1/1/1 is still trash, a simple move out with basic GW units and MSC just kills it, time warps prevent marines from kiting back and allow zealots to close the gap on marines and tanks. And even if the terran gets close to the nat a simple PO will keep the tanks out of range long enough to get Colossus. If you opened with SG its even more one sided because oracles can provide vision via revelation, can be used as as fighting units in conjuncture with GW units, way earlier I should add, leading to the quick destruction of the push, you can also add Phoenix in to kill banshees, much more effective then stalkers.
There is also no way a Terran player meching will push at you in the early game. A tank based army is very gas expensive, if he invested into that for a early push he is sacrificing infrastructure or upgrades, or both, and you gain a lead there, + he is sacrificing safety since he might not leave anything behind, and the mech army is still extremely fragile early game. So if he pushes with a tank based mech army at you early game and you didn't see it in time and crush it, then you, again made a very grave mistake and still deserve to lose.
And if its tanks sieging your nat late game, then the game is over anyway and you are just delaying the inevitable.
The reason I am using such an aggressive and condescending tone is because a lot of posters here have earned it, throwing around speculation with nearly no analysis behind it, they don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly.
I have not missed your point, I am just talking about avilo's proposals that you defended with regard to actually balancing and fixing the game. I am not proposing to keep the game as it is. I even agree that you have to somehow adjust the protoss aggressive and defensive options. However, taking away all the aggressive options completely can't be the solution. It might be fair if you want one side to be super passive and one having all the options but then we would just invert the roles in TvP instead of fixing the MU.
Also, you mentioning how amazing stargate vs 1/1/1 or banshees in general is. However, with avilo's changes going through, toss would not open stargate anymore since it would be almost useless against bio play.
And the power of the Msc and nexus cannon against tank based attacks is not that the nexus shoots but rather that the msc provides vision that is greater than the attack range of the tank.only that way you can actually protect the nexus from being shot at. This obviously is only a early/early-mid game problem, yet this is the stage that needs to be addressed in current tvp.
Finally, I am rather astonished about what you say about tank pushes. with the proposed changes,toss would be forced to play very passive to be safe while Terran now gets free siege, cheaper cloak and a cheaper armory while being able to build emergency turrents without the need for an engibay. Thus Terran mech pushes would hit harder and/or earlier with a lot less draw backs.
What? The power of the msc vs 1/1/1 tank pushes is the vision not Overcharge?
I'm sorry, but with less vision it can accomplish exactly the same, PO is 13 range, MSC vision is 11, Tanks 13, Vikings 9, Marines 5. You can still provide vision ezpz no risk exactly like vikings in tvt do. Msc vision reduce changes NOTHING in Tank vs PO Ne us.
Msc vision is 14 atm but even with 11 it would be alright, however, it was suggested to eliminate its vision or reduce it to a point it can't grant vision for stalkers to shoot up ramps (that would be about 3 range). With those changes PO would be useless against tanks
On February 02 2014 00:45 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On February 02 2014 00:33 Destructicon wrote:
The reason I am using such an aggressive and condescending tone is because a lot of posters here have earned it, throwing around speculation with nearly no analysis behind it, they don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly.
Are you not doing the same?
Both yours and avilo's arguments have nearly no analysis behind it, you don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly. Indeed, you have earned such an aggressive and condescending tone.
Wat.
They have two incredibly detailed posts stating specific reasons why these things are problems. What kind of analysis are you looking for? The usual bullshit that gets posted here?
Herp Derp Derp 52%-48% winrate, Herp Derp Derp MC vs MMA Herp Derp Derp Derp
I highly prefer people like these guys clearly addressing the issue which is as clear as fucking daylight about TvP problems, and then suggesting some changes.
The problem is now a days people see the word avilo... scroll past his post and reply with
Nope, he is actually right: the whole analysis focuses on how it helps Terran, not how it fixes the MU.
Let me ask you this, Who really needs help in TvP right now the toss or the Terran?
Let me exaggerated a bit: Like someone above jokingly proposed, one could introduce a Terran ability that kills half of Tosses units for 50 energy. Would help Terrans, the game would still be shit though.
On February 02 2014 01:50 Clbull wrote: I'm going to be very delicate about the Hydralisk change. I don't want to use banned terminology on TL especially in a balance discussion.
However, I feel like halving the gas cost of Hydras is only going to destroy ZvT and ZvP. If Hydras suddenly become so gas-efficient that you can devise a build order using a generator and amass them in a 200/200 timing with perhaps 1/1 upgrades, speed and range upgrades, then you are going to see two dead matchups.
We've already seen how powerful Roach Hydra Infestor can be in ZvT especially in the hands of a good player and if gas costs are halved, that means reinforcing with a good mix of roaches and hydras is much easier and there will be more Infestors on the field when the Zerg is in a good situation.
In ZvP, we're just going to see Hydralisk busts, perhaps combined with drop aggression. Before, that was too costly to really pull off. Now? BRING ON THE LISKS!!!!
ZvT won't give a damn about hydralisk buff. Let's be real: they are just ineffective vs anything the terran does (unless you count the 2-2 roach hydra timing which is just an all-in based on the terran not making tanks).
On February 02 2014 00:45 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On February 02 2014 00:33 Destructicon wrote:
The reason I am using such an aggressive and condescending tone is because a lot of posters here have earned it, throwing around speculation with nearly no analysis behind it, they don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly.
Are you not doing the same?
Both yours and avilo's arguments have nearly no analysis behind it, you don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly. Indeed, you have earned such an aggressive and condescending tone.
Wat.
They have two incredibly detailed posts stating specific reasons why these things are problems. What kind of analysis are you looking for? The usual bullshit that gets posted here?
Herp Derp Derp 52%-48% winrate, Herp Derp Derp MC vs MMA Herp Derp Derp Derp
I highly prefer people like these guys clearly addressing the issue which is as clear as fucking daylight about TvP problems, and then suggesting some changes.
The problem is now a days people see the word avilo... scroll past his post and reply with
Nope, he is actually right: the whole analysis focuses on how it helps Terran, not how it fixes the MU.
Let me ask you this, Who really needs help in TvP right now the toss or the Terran?
Terran obviously.
But what he suggested doesn't help the matchup become balanced. Just completely reverse the situation. The suggestions separately aren't too bad (other than removing vision from mothership core. Reduce it? Sure. But not remove it), but the problem is, if all are done together like suggested it would simply reverse the situation and the matchup would be broken in Terran's favour instead of Protoss's. It would take away any and all ability for Protoss to do anything other than WoL turtle style.
On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote: 1. Revert Oracle Speed
Agreed
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This is silly. Sight range decrease I'm down for, such a massive decrease, no. Should only be decreased to the point where it's a little riskier to move in and get the core sniped.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
Either this or the oracle nerf, you can't have both my friend. Also no to the sensor towers, they should still require eng bay
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
Again, either this or the turret buff. You really can't have both. You're just being plain biased now, you essentially want for terran and protoss to switch roles (where terran can now easily defend anything and toss loses a bunch of options. That's not good for the game to just revert sh*tty roles)
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
The problem with buffing armory is that it makes it even easier/faster for bio players to get their upgrades (which scale massively), and we don't really need to be buffing bio right now. Ironically, the ghost change does the same lol I don't agree with either change.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
God no lol
On top of that, I reaaaaaally can't believe they actually put the hydra change in the test map. I will be SHOCKED if they go through with it
On February 02 2014 00:45 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On February 02 2014 00:33 Destructicon wrote:
The reason I am using such an aggressive and condescending tone is because a lot of posters here have earned it, throwing around speculation with nearly no analysis behind it, they don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly.
Are you not doing the same?
Both yours and avilo's arguments have nearly no analysis behind it, you don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly. Indeed, you have earned such an aggressive and condescending tone.
Wat.
They have two incredibly detailed posts stating specific reasons why these things are problems. What kind of analysis are you looking for? The usual bullshit that gets posted here?
Herp Derp Derp 52%-48% winrate, Herp Derp Derp MC vs MMA Herp Derp Derp Derp
I highly prefer people like these guys clearly addressing the issue which is as clear as fucking daylight about TvP problems, and then suggesting some changes.
The problem is now a days people see the word avilo... scroll past his post and reply with
Nope, he is actually right: the whole analysis focuses on how it helps Terran, not how it fixes the MU.
Let me ask you this, Who really needs help in TvP right now the toss or the Terran?
Let me exaggerated a bit: Like someone above jokingly proposed, one could introduce a Terran ability that kills half of Tosses units for 50 energy. Would help Terrans, the game would still be shit though.
Ok?? Thanks for the exaggeration to dodge whats going on here. Its not really that difficult to understand...
P's current state is that it is too powerful at all stages of the game, making it incredibly difficult to play against because your opponent can be the greediest fucker and get away with it and laugh at you late game, or he can all in you 50 different ways and kill you. This is not clearly not good design to have a race with so many strengths and so many options in a game that itself is already way to volatile.
So what do most of the T's post here and want? Some honest nerfs to Toss to diminish the over barring strengths so that Terran can do some damage and create a more balanced effect for the match up. Go re-read Avilos post, and please no more exaggerations.
On February 02 2014 01:50 Clbull wrote: I'm going to be very delicate about the Hydralisk change. I don't want to use banned terminology on TL especially in a balance discussion.
However, I feel like halving the gas cost of Hydras is only going to destroy ZvT and ZvP. If Hydras suddenly become so gas-efficient that you can devise a build order using a generator and amass them in a 200/200 timing with perhaps 1/1 upgrades, speed and range upgrades, then you are going to see two dead matchups.
We've already seen how powerful Roach Hydra Infestor can be in ZvT especially in the hands of a good player and if gas costs are halved, that means reinforcing with a good mix of roaches and hydras is much easier and there will be more Infestors on the field when the Zerg is in a good situation.
In ZvP, we're just going to see Hydralisk busts, perhaps combined with drop aggression. Before, that was too costly to really pull off. Now? BRING ON THE LISKS!!!!
ZvT won't give a damn about hydralisk buff. Let's be real: they are just ineffective vs anything the terran does (unless you count the 2-2 roach hydra timing which is just an all-in based on the terran not making tanks).
ZvP will be broken for sure though.
Actually, Roach Hydra is viable vs Bio in ZvT. The problem is it's really easy to play too greedy and you generally needed Infestors as support. It also stretches you very thin and is semi-weak against mass Marauders. This build got me from Gold League to Diamond League during mid-2013. The only time I really lost to it was against a Master Terran who pretty much outmultitasked me and kept continually sniping bases. I also couldn't take him in straight engagements despite equal upgrades, good fungals and establishing concaves because 4 base Terran production of bio is off the fucking charts.
The idea is that Hydralisks do insane DPS provided they do not get focused down. They can also target-fire medivacs and greatly reduce the healing potential of a bioball and force the Terran opponent to spend far more gas than he would have wanted on replenishing his Medivac count.
If Hydralisks cost half as much gas to reinforce then this style will dominate ZvT. Hydras will end up super viable to just straight-up mass against Mech or amass alongside a Roach frontline against Bio. The fact is Hydras and Roaches still get 3-shotted by Siege Tanks regardless and Hydras can do superior DPS to Roaches and have superior Range. They also synergize a lot better with Vipers.
The low gas cost of Hydralisks could also encourage Zergs to play like Terrans, macro like crazy and do multi pronged Overlord drop aggression with 2 overlords and 8 hydras for instance, which would demolish mineral lines and bases.
On February 02 2014 02:20 DarkLordOlli wrote: The hydra change is never ever going through
I thought the same thing about the oracle speed buff, queen range, ect. Blizzard hasn't been listening. Not saying it will go through but bad things have.
On February 02 2014 00:45 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On February 02 2014 00:33 Destructicon wrote:
The reason I am using such an aggressive and condescending tone is because a lot of posters here have earned it, throwing around speculation with nearly no analysis behind it, they don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly.
Are you not doing the same?
Both yours and avilo's arguments have nearly no analysis behind it, you don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly. Indeed, you have earned such an aggressive and condescending tone.
Wat.
They have two incredibly detailed posts stating specific reasons why these things are problems. What kind of analysis are you looking for? The usual bullshit that gets posted here?
Herp Derp Derp 52%-48% winrate, Herp Derp Derp MC vs MMA Herp Derp Derp Derp
I highly prefer people like these guys clearly addressing the issue which is as clear as fucking daylight about TvP problems, and then suggesting some changes.
The problem is now a days people see the word avilo... scroll past his post and reply with
Nope, he is actually right: the whole analysis focuses on how it helps Terran, not how it fixes the MU.
Let me ask you this, Who really needs help in TvP right now the toss or the Terran?
Terran obviously.
But what he suggested doesn't help the matchup become balanced. Just completely reverse the situation. The suggestions separately aren't too bad (other than removing vision from mothership core. Reduce it? Sure. But not remove it), but the problem is, if all are done together like suggested it would simply reverse the situation and the matchup would be broken in Terran's favour instead of Protoss's. It would take away any and all ability for Protoss to do anything other than WoL turtle style.
Of course, if they did every single change in one patch that might be overkill, that's not the point of suggestions. When people post a laundry list of things its more aimed at the idea of hoping that some of them make it through at a time until the MU is healed. Even if Blizz just started with with 1-2 changes it would be a great help as Terran could get a better footing on what the P can and can not do in the early game, it could open more new BO's and new ways to play.
On February 02 2014 00:45 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On February 02 2014 00:33 Destructicon wrote:
The reason I am using such an aggressive and condescending tone is because a lot of posters here have earned it, throwing around speculation with nearly no analysis behind it, they don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly.
Are you not doing the same?
Both yours and avilo's arguments have nearly no analysis behind it, you don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly. Indeed, you have earned such an aggressive and condescending tone.
Wat.
They have two incredibly detailed posts stating specific reasons why these things are problems. What kind of analysis are you looking for? The usual bullshit that gets posted here?
Herp Derp Derp 52%-48% winrate, Herp Derp Derp MC vs MMA Herp Derp Derp Derp
I highly prefer people like these guys clearly addressing the issue which is as clear as fucking daylight about TvP problems, and then suggesting some changes.
The problem is now a days people see the word avilo... scroll past his post and reply with
Nope, he is actually right: the whole analysis focuses on how it helps Terran, not how it fixes the MU.
Let me ask you this, Who really needs help in TvP right now the toss or the Terran?
Let me exaggerated a bit: Like someone above jokingly proposed, one could introduce a Terran ability that kills half of Tosses units for 50 energy. Would help Terrans, the game would still be shit though.
Ok?? Thanks for the exaggeration to dodge whats going on here. Its not really that difficult to understand...
P's current state is that it is too powerful at all stages of the game, making it incredibly difficult to play against because your opponent can be the greediest fucker and get away with it and laugh at you late game, or he can all in you 50 different ways and kill you. This is not clearly not good design to have a race with so many strengths and so many options in a game that itself is already way to volatile.
So what do most of the T's post here and want? Some honest nerfs to Toss to diminish the over barring strengths so that Terran can do some damage and create a more balanced effect for the match up. Go re-read Avilos post, and please no more exaggerations.
uhm...yes...or rather...no. I actually don't know if we agree or not.
edit: reading through your last post, I suppose we actually agree on the core matter.
Patch is just bad, sorry, I don't drink poisoned water when I'm thirsty. Aside from hydra change (which would break ZvP balance), this is all useless patching considering the gravity of the situation.Terran are currently at a worse point than any race has ever been in Starcraft 2. Korean T PGM lose to foreigners on a constant basis. 10% of T in code S.
Therefore, Blizzard should really question their patching algorithm (and history) which brought us there... Like, 1/.Why did we iteratively nerfed the hellbat drop strategy until no T did it again ? 2/.Why did we nerfed the widow mines to a point where suddenly the best T now go Mech or bio/hellbat in TvZ ? 3/.How could we hope for T doing good considering they sucked in late WOL and we nerfed all their serious HOTS additions ?
Blizzard have genious developpers and artists, but their balance teams are among the worse you could think of.
On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote: I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
I guess that is the reason Blizzard is not relying too much on player input: you basically just want all that's good for Terran while nerfing everything Toss has. Well thought out...
avilo is completely correct about these points.
1. Oracles were fine pre-buff and the reason David Kim justified the buff with was retarded at best. Just because they were underused yet still theoretically viable doesn't justify a buff. He is absolutely right in the fact that nothing short of vikings or turrets in the main and natural covering every single crevice will counter that shit.
2. The Mothership Core is what led to a Blink nerf in the HotS beta in the first place. It's also caused many balance issues by deeming most aggressive 1 and 2 base Terran and Zerg builds straight-up unviable because no amount of units can deal enough damage before being entirely eradicated by a single Overcharge. We are also seeing Blink all ins eradicate Terran and Zerg on some of the more recently Protoss favored maps like Heavy Rain.
Eradicating MSC visiion won't help either. Avilo seems to forget that Hallucinations can provide aerial vision, which will still make Blink all ins happen.
3. I agree with that. Why the fuck does Zerg get preferential treatment in that regard and have the Evolution Chamber requirement to make Spore Crawlers removed when Queens (unlike Marines) are a soft-counter to the Oracle?
4. If they implement avilo's third suggestion, this won't be necessary. DTs were rather shit back in Wings too.
5. How about a compromise? 100/75? If you eradicate MSC vision entirely, it won't fix things that much. Hallucinations need to return as an upgrade from the Cybernetics Core in order for Blink all ins to finally be balanced, by the fact you'd need to either build a Stargate, research Hallucination or build a Robotics Facility to get the air vision needed.
6. Yes please but I think the Moebius Reactor change is enough to make Mech Ghost viable.
On February 02 2014 00:45 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
On February 02 2014 00:33 Destructicon wrote:
The reason I am using such an aggressive and condescending tone is because a lot of posters here have earned it, throwing around speculation with nearly no analysis behind it, they don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly.
Are you not doing the same?
Both yours and avilo's arguments have nearly no analysis behind it, you don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly. Indeed, you have earned such an aggressive and condescending tone.
Wat.
They have two incredibly detailed posts stating specific reasons why these things are problems. What kind of analysis are you looking for? The usual bullshit that gets posted here?
Herp Derp Derp 52%-48% winrate, Herp Derp Derp MC vs MMA Herp Derp Derp Derp
I highly prefer people like these guys clearly addressing the issue which is as clear as fucking daylight about TvP problems, and then suggesting some changes.
The problem is now a days people see the word avilo... scroll past his post and reply with
Nope, he is actually right: the whole analysis focuses on how it helps Terran, not how it fixes the MU.
Let me ask you this, Who really needs help in TvP right now the toss or the Terran?
Let me exaggerated a bit: Like someone above jokingly proposed, one could introduce a Terran ability that kills half of Tosses units for 50 energy. Would help Terrans, the game would still be shit though.
Ok?? Thanks for the exaggeration to dodge whats going on here. Its not really that difficult to understand...
P's current state is that it is too powerful at all stages of the game, making it incredibly difficult to play against because your opponent can be the greediest fucker and get away with it and laugh at you late game, or he can all in you 50 different ways and kill you. This is not clearly not good design to have a race with so many strengths and so many options in a game that itself is already way to volatile.
So what do most of the T's post here and want? Some honest nerfs to Toss to diminish the over barring strengths so that Terran can do some damage and create a more balanced effect for the match up. Go re-read Avilos post, and please no more exaggerations.
uhm...yes...or rather...no. I actually don't know if we agree or not.
Well I think based on your responses you at least agree that P is to powerful in the MU's
It seems like you disagree on the fix. How do you fix the MU then? You either have to Buff T or nerf P. I honestly do not see to many feasible ways for Blizz to buff T without huge repercussions in other MU's as we use the same 2 units in the early game and the end game in TvP. I think about 50% of TL will throw up if Blizz ever buffs marine/maruader units again in this game. You can try and buff Bunkers and Missle Turrets, but static D is a great way to increase the dullness of a game. Now both T and P will have crazy early game defense so every game will be NR20 and go late-game and P will still be on Top.
Diamond Protoss/Random player here - The issue with PvT in my opinion is that the terran has to invest too much into defending basically every type of harass and all-in and if they scout it late, its basically GG. The protoss can sit back and tech behind these plays leaving the terran behind in the late game be it no ghosts when storm is out, or short on vikings when 2+ colo are out, mostly because the terran is forced to prepare for every possible scenario and cannot afford to invest in the late game like the terran can.
Someone suggested earlier that Turrets have the engineering bay requirement removed which I think is a little bit too extreme because it shuts down too much many protoss options and does nothing to help against blink all-ins, but the idea itself is on the right track.
What about decreasing the build time on bunkers? If you feel that bunker rushes would become an issue you could add a passive to command centers that decreases the build time of nearby bunkers by 50% or something along those lines. This would help significantly against a blink all-in that is scouted late, and helps when you reaper expanded against a proxy stargate. Throw a bunker down in the mineral line and save your marines, sack it and replace with a turret when your engineering bay is finished. I think this would allow the terran to play a bit greedier because they are better protected against blink all-ins, 2 base timings, and oracle rushes but it still gives the protoss a chance to make these strategies work if the terran is not actively scouting. It also does not make DT's useless which is what happens when you remove the engineering bay requirement from turrets.
On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote: I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
I guess that is the reason Blizzard is not relying too much on player input: you basically just want all that's good for Terran while nerfing everything Toss has. Well thought out...
avilo is completely correct about these points.
1. Oracles were fine pre-buff and the reason David Kim justified the buff with was retarded at best. Just because they were underused yet still theoretically viable doesn't justify a buff. He is absolutely right in the fact that nothing short of vikings or turrets in the main and natural covering every single crevice will counter that shit.
2. The Mothership Core is what led to a Blink nerf in the HotS beta in the first place. It's also caused many balance issues by deeming most aggressive 1 and 2 base Terran and Zerg builds straight-up unviable because no amount of units can deal enough damage before being entirely eradicated by a single Overcharge. We are also seeing Blink all ins eradicate Terran and Zerg on some of the more recently Protoss favored maps like Heavy Rain.
Eradicating MSC visiion won't help either. Avilo seems to forget that Hallucinations can provide aerial vision, which will still make Blink all ins happen.
3. I agree with that. Why the fuck does Zerg get preferential treatment in that regard and have the Evolution Chamber requirement to make Spore Crawlers removed when Queens (unlike Marines) are a soft-counter to the Oracle?
4. If they implement avilo's third suggestion, this won't be necessary. DTs were rather shit back in Wings too.
5. How about a compromise? 100/75? If you eradicate MSC vision entirely, it won't fix things that much. Hallucinations need to return as an upgrade from the Cybernetics Core in order for Blink all ins to finally be balanced, by the fact you'd need to either build a Stargate, research Hallucination or build a Robotics Facility to get the air vision needed.
6. Yes please but I think the Moebius Reactor change is enough to make Mech Ghost viable.
Well said except for #6. This ghost change is such a tiny tiny buff to mech its ridiculous. Saving the Terran a minute of time and 100 gas for the upgrade does not suddenly make your mech army roll the Protoss army. Mech is still slow, it still dies to every P unit. When it comes down to it your still going to be fighting a 200 vs 200 army and get crushed straight up. Then die to warp ins. Saving 100 gas and time does nothing when the armies are maxed. I highly doubt there is some magical timing now that T can try and pull some mid-game timing push with mech because he has 2-3 ghosts.
To the people suggesting free interceptors: it's more free damage (or free units) in the game.
If dark templar come too fast and blink all-ins are too powerful, maybe the twilight council is too cheap? It's a very inexpensive building.
If you keep dying to late-game dt harass maybe you're lacking in multitasking. Dark templars in late-game are one way to outplay your opponent and I don't see why it should disappear.
On February 02 2014 02:54 XXXSmOke wrote: Well said except for #6. This ghost change is such a tiny tiny buff to mech its ridiculous. Saving the Terran a minute of time and 100 gas for the upgrade does not suddenly make your mech army roll the Protoss army. Mech is still slow, it still dies to every P unit. When it comes down to it your still going to be fighting a 200 vs 200 army and get crushed straight up. Then die to warp ins. Saving 100 gas and time does nothing when the armies are maxed. I highly doubt there is some magical timing now that T can try and pull some mid-game timing push with mech because he has 2-3 ghosts.
The POWER of mech has never been the issue TvP, especially with ghosts, and especially since the tank buff. Mech ground armies of the appropriate composition are easily the strongest in the game EVEN vs PROTOS. While I am not theory crafting here, this is only from my own experience so there may be some mystical anti mech composition I dont know about. The hardest part about going mech vs protoss are the risks you need to take to stay even with the protoss. Basically I'm talking about the first 10 min of the game. The only way to open SAFELY vs toss is with marine tank expo, or with early agrgession with dropships hellions or widowmines. The first devalues your army the more marines you build so you have to take a risk somewhere while factories are building or accept playing from slightly behind and build a lot of marines. If you open up aggressive vs toss you absolutely need to damage which has been difficult for a long time because MSC. I don't think its impossible even at top levels, but it at least feels like more than half the time you will not be able to do enough damage. We can only speculate as to what Blizz FULL thought process but IMO the ghost change was the same as all their "balance" changes which is to encourage the use of a certain unit. They have been doing this for the whole life of HOTS. Buffing the shit out of the warp prism to get people to make more of them, (then rollback the buff slightly) buff oracles, buff tanks, nerf widowmines. All these changes were to get people to certain make units more or less often. After playing a few games with the mod (which is so fucking awesome btw) I can get ghosts easier against toss, but the early game issues still arise. THE BIGGEST thing I have noticed, is that if you are playing from behind against toss (bio or mech) you can get the very powerful ghost out that much faster which helps terran mid game without touching the early game. This must be Blizz's preference.
On February 02 2014 03:03 Grumbels wrote: To the people suggesting free interceptors: it's more free damage (or free units) in the game.
If dark templar come too fast and blink all-ins are too powerful, maybe the twilight council is too cheap? It's a very inexpensive building.
If you keep dying to late-game dt harass maybe you're lacking in multitasking. Dark templars in late-game are one way to outplay your opponent and I don't see why it should disappear.
Reverting the cost of the DT Shrine won't nerf DT's late game harass potential, it will just delay the annoying all-in early game version of it, which is just want we want. And blink all-ins aren't too powerful because the TC is cheep, they are strong because protoss has such easy to gain and safe vision to the high ground, and that is because of the MSC. In WoL blink all-ins where still strong, but they where delayed by the need for a robo and obs. The obs was a lot more fragile and could be sniped easier then the MSC, the obs didn't have a slow zone to keep itself and the stalkers alive, or to stifle the defense of the terran.
As a Protoss, the photon overcharge nerf seems a good idea and perhaps it still needs to be an even shorter duration. Why did they nerf the time warp? It is a bit harder to use efficiently and is kinda situational. Between the shorter nexus cannon and the stronger ghosts I'm curious to see how PvT will evolve. It looks like PvZ will be even more of a nightmare with swarms of Hydras running all over the damn place.
On February 02 2014 02:57 aZealot wrote: Anyone been playing the test map rather than theory jerk?
Why does it matter? Are you a good enough player that you can draw balance conclusions from your own play?
I'd say anyone below GM is better off theorycrafting.
Because otherwise we have a repetition of the same inane points over and over and over again? What does that achieve? And given that I play at a level way below GM, as do most people, I'd like to know what the play might look like at those levels. That makes sense to me. Of course, if you like to theory stroke go for gold.
On February 02 2014 02:54 XXXSmOke wrote: Well said except for #6. This ghost change is such a tiny tiny buff to mech its ridiculous. Saving the Terran a minute of time and 100 gas for the upgrade does not suddenly make your mech army roll the Protoss army. Mech is still slow, it still dies to every P unit. When it comes down to it your still going to be fighting a 200 vs 200 army and get crushed straight up. Then die to warp ins. Saving 100 gas and time does nothing when the armies are maxed. I highly doubt there is some magical timing now that T can try and pull some mid-game timing push with mech because he has 2-3 ghosts.
The POWER of mech has never been the issue TvP, especially with ghosts, and especially since the tank buff. Mech ground armies of the appropriate composition are easily the strongest in the game EVEN vs PROTOS. While I am not theory crafting here, this is only from my own experience so there may be some mystical anti mech composition I dont know about. The hardest part about going mech vs protoss are the risks you need to take to stay even with the protoss. Basically I'm talking about the first 10 min of the game. The only way to open SAFELY vs toss is with marine tank expo, or with early agrgession with dropships hellions or widowmines. The first devalues your army the more marines you build so you have to take a risk somewhere while factories are building or accept playing from slightly behind and build a lot of marines. If you open up aggressive vs toss you absolutely need to damage which has been difficult for a long time because MSC. I don't think its impossible even at top levels, but it at least feels like more than half the time you will not be able to do enough damage. We can only speculate as to what Blizz FULL thought process but IMO the ghost change was the same as all their "balance" changes which is to encourage the use of a certain unit. They have been doing this for the whole life of HOTS. Buffing the shit out of the warp prism to get people to make more of them, (then rollback the buff slightly) buff oracles, buff tanks, nerf widowmines. All these changes were to get people to certain make units more or less often. After playing a few games with the mod (which is so fucking awesome btw) I can get ghosts easier against toss, but the early game issues still arise. THE BIGGEST thing I have noticed, is that if you are playing from behind against toss (bio or mech) you can get the very powerful ghost out that much faster which helps terran mid game without touching the early game. This must be Blizz's preference.
The power of late game mech is very much an issue, if it was working late game you would see it way more often. The things you talk about here are actually additional issues that make mech so laughably bad in TvP
On February 02 2014 03:03 Grumbels wrote: To the people suggesting free interceptors: it's more free damage (or free units) in the game.
If dark templar come too fast and blink all-ins are too powerful, maybe the twilight council is too cheap? It's a very inexpensive building.
If you keep dying to late-game dt harass maybe you're lacking in multitasking. Dark templars in late-game are one way to outplay your opponent and I don't see why it should disappear.
Reverting the cost of the DT Shrine won't nerf DT's late game harass potential, it will just delay the annoying all-in early game version of it, which is just want we want. And blink all-ins aren't too powerful because the TC is cheep, they are strong because protoss has such easy to gain and safe vision to the high ground, and that is because of the MSC. In WoL blink all-ins where still strong, but they where delayed by the need for a robo and obs. The obs was a lot more fragile and could be sniped easier then the MSC, the obs didn't have a slow zone to keep itself and the stalkers alive, or to stifle the defense of the terran.
So the root of the problem is the MSC.
There is no "root of the problem", that's a completely ridiculous way of looking at balance. I'm just saying, if early twilight council tech proves problematic, why not call for an increase to its cost?
People constantly parrot these suggestions that they haven't thought through at all. Do you really think that tweaking MsC vision range will 'fix' blink all-ins? I doubt it will have too much effect.
On February 02 2014 03:03 Grumbels wrote: To the people suggesting free interceptors: it's more free damage (or free units) in the game.
If dark templar come too fast and blink all-ins are too powerful, maybe the twilight council is too cheap? It's a very inexpensive building.
If you keep dying to late-game dt harass maybe you're lacking in multitasking. Dark templars in late-game are one way to outplay your opponent and I don't see why it should disappear.
Reverting the cost of the DT Shrine won't nerf DT's late game harass potential, it will just delay the annoying all-in early game version of it, which is just want we want. And blink all-ins aren't too powerful because the TC is cheep, they are strong because protoss has such easy to gain and safe vision to the high ground, and that is because of the MSC. In WoL blink all-ins where still strong, but they where delayed by the need for a robo and obs. The obs was a lot more fragile and could be sniped easier then the MSC, the obs didn't have a slow zone to keep itself and the stalkers alive, or to stifle the defense of the terran.
So the root of the problem is the MSC.
There is no "root of the problem", that's a completely ridiculous way of looking at balance. I'm just saying, if early twilight council tech proves problematic, why not call for an increase to its cost?
People constantly parrot these suggestions that they haven't thought through at all. Do you really think that tweaking MsC vision range will 'fix' blink all-ins? I doubt it will have too much effect.
If you reduce the vision to the point the MSC needs to get within sniping range to provide enough vision to blink up, then it will be of massive help. But it goes deeper then that. The massive 14 vision range means the Protoss has great awareness of exactly where he can blink in safely, to damage, and get out. If the MSC range is reduced enough, then it needs to go deeper into the main to provide vision and it becomes even more vulnerable to sniping. If he plays safe and just blinks up with minimum range then the protoss risks losing all his talkers if he blinks within range of bio or a bunker.
On February 02 2014 03:03 Grumbels wrote: To the people suggesting free interceptors: it's more free damage (or free units) in the game.
If dark templar come too fast and blink all-ins are too powerful, maybe the twilight council is too cheap? It's a very inexpensive building.
If you keep dying to late-game dt harass maybe you're lacking in multitasking. Dark templars in late-game are one way to outplay your opponent and I don't see why it should disappear.
Reverting the cost of the DT Shrine won't nerf DT's late game harass potential, it will just delay the annoying all-in early game version of it, which is just want we want. And blink all-ins aren't too powerful because the TC is cheep, they are strong because protoss has such easy to gain and safe vision to the high ground, and that is because of the MSC. In WoL blink all-ins where still strong, but they where delayed by the need for a robo and obs. The obs was a lot more fragile and could be sniped easier then the MSC, the obs didn't have a slow zone to keep itself and the stalkers alive, or to stifle the defense of the terran.
So the root of the problem is the MSC.
Keep in mind that blink finished 80 seconds sooner in wings - They nerfed blink in Beta to compensate for the MSC
On February 01 2014 22:29 Destructicon wrote: Damn, the amount off ignorance and hate being flung at Avilo is astounding.
Almost all the suggestions he has made are very sensible and much needed changes.
The problem with Protoss, the real imbalance is that they have way too many options, options that, also limit the options terrans can do. TvP late game isn't easy for Terran, but it isn't completely impossible either, you just need both T and P to enter it on even footing.
At the moment terrans can't enter it on even footing. The early aggressive options of toss, Oracles, Blink all-in, DTs etc, force the terran into using very safe and conservative builds. However because the builds are so safe protoss exploits them with extremely greedy builds, that can't be countered almost at all, because the MSC just gives way, way too much safety. Terran is thus stuck between a rock and a hard place, they can't be aggressive at all, because of MSC, but they also can't be too greedy, because of all the lethal pressure toss has.
Something has to give, its either the toss lose some of their defensive power, so terran can actually be aggressive and force toss to be less greedy, or toss itself loses some of its aggressive options so that terran can be more greedy and enter the late game even. The logic here is perfectly fine, I only see outbreaks of QQ from protosses, fearful they will actually have to put in some effort to play.
I see nothing wrong reverting the oracle speed, it was a dumb buff to begin with, it was contested and complained against since the very beginning, even protoss pros agreed that it was a bad change. The oracle limits terrans build order choices, you always have to play safe, you always need to take them into account, because if you don't you just die to it, there is no middle ground there.
I also don't see anything wrong with reducing the sight range of MSC. The MSC already breaks so many rules in the game, its a scouting tool, army support/utility and defensive tool, its too versatile, it has too much, it does too much. The MSC should never have been made so strong, its high time two of its utilities got cut, at the very least the sight range should be reduced so that terran can't have a free scout and free vision of the high ground, with zero counterplay to it.
DT Shrine cost was also stupid. Protoss is already very safe because of MSC, it stands to reason then that if defense is so cheep for them then their aggressive options, at least early game, should be more expensive, to balance things out, so they can't actually put on aggression while still staying 100% safe. You don't see any creative DT strats either, they are used as a gimmick early game to gain a huge lead, or they are used as a reliable harass tool late game in all MUs, the cost of it won't nerf it in the late game, but it will tone down the huge number of possible game ending aggressive options toss has in the early game.
Finally, I have it makes 0 sense anymore for Missile turret to require a engy bay to build, the missile turret can only shoot up, it also costs 100 damn minerals and you need at least 1 per mineral line to be safe. Spore was even changed to not require Evo chambers any more, I don't see why Missile turrets can't get the same treatment. I'm not sure about the sensor tower, I think that should still require an ebay.
I also agree with the armory change, it doesn't affect any unit balance, it helps with one of the core problems of mech, setting up infrastructure, because for the longest time you'll be working off 2 base and have to spend gas on upgrades, infrastructure (factories, SP and all their addons) as well as army, and you can't do it all at once off just 440 gas per minute, which leaves the mech army player with glaring weaknesses, since all of the above cost shit loads of gas.
Quite frankly I just think most of you are hating on Avilo for no good reason, almost none of you presented any counter arguments as to why his suggestions are bad, you only vaguely touch on how it should, supposedly, break TvP by swinging it in terran favor, but I've yet to see explanations as to how that would happen.
All I see is mindless bashing and bronze league logic used to counter quite sensible, actually very conservative proposals.
Edit: And since I seem to have went off topic slightly, I hate all the proposed changes, the only good one is the time warp change, but it doesn't do enough, all the changes are bad because they fail to address the appropriate issue in the appropriate way, but I already explained why in the last thread.
It's funny that you start your post with claiming that shit was flung at someone yet then you yourself resort to condescending or plain insulting language.
The problem with avilo's quite conservative proposals is, that in combination they are not conservative proposals anymore. It is a onesided approach to the issue that results in all problems for Terran solved while Toss would be where they were in the era of the infamous 1/1/1 with the added benefit of banshee buffs. Back then, the complains of Tosses were similar to those of Terrans today: lack of scouting info, variety of Terran harass options and macro follow ups as well a lack of harass options. Also, horribly strong Terran all ins (ie 1/1/1 or marine hellion drops)
Just some quick theorycrafting how avilo's changes would affect Tosses options: -Going DTs? Well with old cost and no engibay-turrets? Reduced to an all in that needs to do significant damage (which it should not do anymore). -Oracles? - slow oracles with turrets available on the fly basically make it the same as going DTs. on the other hand: -Tanks sieging your natural and cloaked banshees attacking your mineral line will be painfull without 14 vision range msc especially when you consider that tanks then would do bonus damage versus shields. This would be even stronger than in wol since tanks don't need siege mode research and cloak is considerably cheaper than it was back then.
All in all, the game would be back at super passive protoss turtle play with no aggressive options apart from heavy gateway all ins (only them being a lot weaker with widow mines, free siege mode and stuff)
I may reiterate that I don't find any one of those changes unreasonable in itself but they for sure add up and make mech play a round thing against Toss, while leaving Toss in a situation that reminds me very much of WoL and I don't want to think about the implications those change would have for PvZ.
You seem to have missed the point where I said that, Protoss is already extremely safe against terran aggression while being able to put on a load of pressure themselves or even kill, one of those has to be addressed. Its either toss defensive power needs to be toned down, to the point where terran can put on enough aggression to force the toss to potentially spend more gas on being safe (thus slowing their tech and reducing their greed), or the toss pressures need to be severely nerfed.
In the context of Toss still keeping their MSC defensive powers mostly intact (which is what this balance patch proposes), then having all the toss offensive options nerfed is a fair and justified. If you want toss to keep all its offensive toys then propose a nerf to the MSC defensive abilities, you can't have both extreme safety early game and extreme offensive power with no risk reward involved, that's not how an RTS is supposed to work.
I find it amusing you mention banshees, they are hard countered by almost anything in the protoss arsenal. If toss goes SG for quick oracle then they will be able to also make 1 phoenix to shut down the aggression. If they opened Robo they can get an obs and stalkers to chase it away.
Now, if siege tanks are sieging your nat, then you somehow lost your MSC early or threw down all your time warps willy nilly, which equates to you making a serious mistake and not having any Photon Overcharge, and if that results in you getting your nat nexus sieged then you fucked up royally and deserve to lose or got outplayed and still deserve to lose.
Even with Avilo's proposed changes the 1/1/1 is still trash, a simple move out with basic GW units and MSC just kills it, time warps prevent marines from kiting back and allow zealots to close the gap on marines and tanks. And even if the terran gets close to the nat a simple PO will keep the tanks out of range long enough to get Colossus. If you opened with SG its even more one sided because oracles can provide vision via revelation, can be used as as fighting units in conjuncture with GW units, way earlier I should add, leading to the quick destruction of the push, you can also add Phoenix in to kill banshees, much more effective then stalkers.
There is also no way a Terran player meching will push at you in the early game. A tank based army is very gas expensive, if he invested into that for a early push he is sacrificing infrastructure or upgrades, or both, and you gain a lead there, + he is sacrificing safety since he might not leave anything behind, and the mech army is still extremely fragile early game. So if he pushes with a tank based mech army at you early game and you didn't see it in time and crush it, then you, again made a very grave mistake and still deserve to lose.
And if its tanks sieging your nat late game, then the game is over anyway and you are just delaying the inevitable.
The reason I am using such an aggressive and condescending tone is because a lot of posters here have earned it, throwing around speculation with nearly no analysis behind it, they don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly.
I have not missed your point, I am just talking about avilo's proposals that you defended with regard to actually balancing and fixing the game. I am not proposing to keep the game as it is. I even agree that you have to somehow adjust the protoss aggressive and defensive options. However, taking away all the aggressive options completely can't be the solution. It might be fair if you want one side to be super passive and one having all the options but then we would just invert the roles in TvP instead of fixing the MU.
Also, you mentioning how amazing stargate vs 1/1/1 or banshees in general is. However, with avilo's changes going through, toss would not open stargate anymore since it would be almost useless against bio play.
And the power of the Msc and nexus cannon against tank based attacks is not that the nexus shoots but rather that the msc provides vision that is greater than the attack range of the tank.only that way you can actually protect the nexus from being shot at. This obviously is only a early/early-mid game problem, yet this is the stage that needs to be addressed in current tvp.
Finally, I am rather astonished about what you say about tank pushes. with the proposed changes,toss would be forced to play very passive to be safe while Terran now gets free siege, cheaper cloak and a cheaper armory while being able to build emergency turrents without the need for an engibay. Thus Terran mech pushes would hit harder and/or earlier with a lot less draw backs.
What? The power of the msc vs 1/1/1 tank pushes is the vision not Overcharge?
I'm sorry, but with less vision it can accomplish exactly the same, PO is 13 range, MSC vision is 11, Tanks 13, Vikings 9, Marines 5. You can still provide vision ezpz no risk exactly like vikings in tvt do. Msc vision reduce changes NOTHING in Tank vs PO Ne us.
Msc vision is 14 atm but even with 11 it would be alright, however, it was suggested to eliminate its vision or reduce it to a point it can't grant vision for stalkers to shoot up ramps (that would be about 3 range). With those changes PO would be useless against tanks
I think you misinterpret that suggestion people do. Stalkers shooting high ground or blinking, no problem. That's fine. BUT the huge vision range makes the blink 100% safe because you have perfect information AND the MSC is nigh undeniable.
Even as a Terran, I think the Ghost buff is a mistake. In general, I think macro game TvP is more entertaining to both watch and play when the Protoss goes High Templar rather than Colossus as their first AoE-choice. The Ghost buff would be a slight but significant nerf to that style, which would be a shame.
If they're so determined to buff hydras than why not just make the hydra range baseline? Moving out without both upgrades can be dangerous so if either one was made baseline we could see quicker hydra pushes.
On February 01 2014 22:29 Destructicon wrote: Damn, the amount off ignorance and hate being flung at Avilo is astounding.
Almost all the suggestions he has made are very sensible and much needed changes.
The problem with Protoss, the real imbalance is that they have way too many options, options that, also limit the options terrans can do. TvP late game isn't easy for Terran, but it isn't completely impossible either, you just need both T and P to enter it on even footing.
At the moment terrans can't enter it on even footing. The early aggressive options of toss, Oracles, Blink all-in, DTs etc, force the terran into using very safe and conservative builds. However because the builds are so safe protoss exploits them with extremely greedy builds, that can't be countered almost at all, because the MSC just gives way, way too much safety. Terran is thus stuck between a rock and a hard place, they can't be aggressive at all, because of MSC, but they also can't be too greedy, because of all the lethal pressure toss has.
Something has to give, its either the toss lose some of their defensive power, so terran can actually be aggressive and force toss to be less greedy, or toss itself loses some of its aggressive options so that terran can be more greedy and enter the late game even. The logic here is perfectly fine, I only see outbreaks of QQ from protosses, fearful they will actually have to put in some effort to play.
I see nothing wrong reverting the oracle speed, it was a dumb buff to begin with, it was contested and complained against since the very beginning, even protoss pros agreed that it was a bad change. The oracle limits terrans build order choices, you always have to play safe, you always need to take them into account, because if you don't you just die to it, there is no middle ground there.
I also don't see anything wrong with reducing the sight range of MSC. The MSC already breaks so many rules in the game, its a scouting tool, army support/utility and defensive tool, its too versatile, it has too much, it does too much. The MSC should never have been made so strong, its high time two of its utilities got cut, at the very least the sight range should be reduced so that terran can't have a free scout and free vision of the high ground, with zero counterplay to it.
DT Shrine cost was also stupid. Protoss is already very safe because of MSC, it stands to reason then that if defense is so cheep for them then their aggressive options, at least early game, should be more expensive, to balance things out, so they can't actually put on aggression while still staying 100% safe. You don't see any creative DT strats either, they are used as a gimmick early game to gain a huge lead, or they are used as a reliable harass tool late game in all MUs, the cost of it won't nerf it in the late game, but it will tone down the huge number of possible game ending aggressive options toss has in the early game.
Finally, I have it makes 0 sense anymore for Missile turret to require a engy bay to build, the missile turret can only shoot up, it also costs 100 damn minerals and you need at least 1 per mineral line to be safe. Spore was even changed to not require Evo chambers any more, I don't see why Missile turrets can't get the same treatment. I'm not sure about the sensor tower, I think that should still require an ebay.
I also agree with the armory change, it doesn't affect any unit balance, it helps with one of the core problems of mech, setting up infrastructure, because for the longest time you'll be working off 2 base and have to spend gas on upgrades, infrastructure (factories, SP and all their addons) as well as army, and you can't do it all at once off just 440 gas per minute, which leaves the mech army player with glaring weaknesses, since all of the above cost shit loads of gas.
Quite frankly I just think most of you are hating on Avilo for no good reason, almost none of you presented any counter arguments as to why his suggestions are bad, you only vaguely touch on how it should, supposedly, break TvP by swinging it in terran favor, but I've yet to see explanations as to how that would happen.
All I see is mindless bashing and bronze league logic used to counter quite sensible, actually very conservative proposals.
Edit: And since I seem to have went off topic slightly, I hate all the proposed changes, the only good one is the time warp change, but it doesn't do enough, all the changes are bad because they fail to address the appropriate issue in the appropriate way, but I already explained why in the last thread.
It's funny that you start your post with claiming that shit was flung at someone yet then you yourself resort to condescending or plain insulting language.
The problem with avilo's quite conservative proposals is, that in combination they are not conservative proposals anymore. It is a onesided approach to the issue that results in all problems for Terran solved while Toss would be where they were in the era of the infamous 1/1/1 with the added benefit of banshee buffs. Back then, the complains of Tosses were similar to those of Terrans today: lack of scouting info, variety of Terran harass options and macro follow ups as well a lack of harass options. Also, horribly strong Terran all ins (ie 1/1/1 or marine hellion drops)
Just some quick theorycrafting how avilo's changes would affect Tosses options: -Going DTs? Well with old cost and no engibay-turrets? Reduced to an all in that needs to do significant damage (which it should not do anymore). -Oracles? - slow oracles with turrets available on the fly basically make it the same as going DTs. on the other hand: -Tanks sieging your natural and cloaked banshees attacking your mineral line will be painfull without 14 vision range msc especially when you consider that tanks then would do bonus damage versus shields. This would be even stronger than in wol since tanks don't need siege mode research and cloak is considerably cheaper than it was back then.
All in all, the game would be back at super passive protoss turtle play with no aggressive options apart from heavy gateway all ins (only them being a lot weaker with widow mines, free siege mode and stuff)
I may reiterate that I don't find any one of those changes unreasonable in itself but they for sure add up and make mech play a round thing against Toss, while leaving Toss in a situation that reminds me very much of WoL and I don't want to think about the implications those change would have for PvZ.
You seem to have missed the point where I said that, Protoss is already extremely safe against terran aggression while being able to put on a load of pressure themselves or even kill, one of those has to be addressed. Its either toss defensive power needs to be toned down, to the point where terran can put on enough aggression to force the toss to potentially spend more gas on being safe (thus slowing their tech and reducing their greed), or the toss pressures need to be severely nerfed.
In the context of Toss still keeping their MSC defensive powers mostly intact (which is what this balance patch proposes), then having all the toss offensive options nerfed is a fair and justified. If you want toss to keep all its offensive toys then propose a nerf to the MSC defensive abilities, you can't have both extreme safety early game and extreme offensive power with no risk reward involved, that's not how an RTS is supposed to work.
I find it amusing you mention banshees, they are hard countered by almost anything in the protoss arsenal. If toss goes SG for quick oracle then they will be able to also make 1 phoenix to shut down the aggression. If they opened Robo they can get an obs and stalkers to chase it away.
Now, if siege tanks are sieging your nat, then you somehow lost your MSC early or threw down all your time warps willy nilly, which equates to you making a serious mistake and not having any Photon Overcharge, and if that results in you getting your nat nexus sieged then you fucked up royally and deserve to lose or got outplayed and still deserve to lose.
Even with Avilo's proposed changes the 1/1/1 is still trash, a simple move out with basic GW units and MSC just kills it, time warps prevent marines from kiting back and allow zealots to close the gap on marines and tanks. And even if the terran gets close to the nat a simple PO will keep the tanks out of range long enough to get Colossus. If you opened with SG its even more one sided because oracles can provide vision via revelation, can be used as as fighting units in conjuncture with GW units, way earlier I should add, leading to the quick destruction of the push, you can also add Phoenix in to kill banshees, much more effective then stalkers.
There is also no way a Terran player meching will push at you in the early game. A tank based army is very gas expensive, if he invested into that for a early push he is sacrificing infrastructure or upgrades, or both, and you gain a lead there, + he is sacrificing safety since he might not leave anything behind, and the mech army is still extremely fragile early game. So if he pushes with a tank based mech army at you early game and you didn't see it in time and crush it, then you, again made a very grave mistake and still deserve to lose.
And if its tanks sieging your nat late game, then the game is over anyway and you are just delaying the inevitable.
The reason I am using such an aggressive and condescending tone is because a lot of posters here have earned it, throwing around speculation with nearly no analysis behind it, they don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly.
I have not missed your point, I am just talking about avilo's proposals that you defended with regard to actually balancing and fixing the game. I am not proposing to keep the game as it is. I even agree that you have to somehow adjust the protoss aggressive and defensive options. However, taking away all the aggressive options completely can't be the solution. It might be fair if you want one side to be super passive and one having all the options but then we would just invert the roles in TvP instead of fixing the MU.
Also, you mentioning how amazing stargate vs 1/1/1 or banshees in general is. However, with avilo's changes going through, toss would not open stargate anymore since it would be almost useless against bio play.
And the power of the Msc and nexus cannon against tank based attacks is not that the nexus shoots but rather that the msc provides vision that is greater than the attack range of the tank.only that way you can actually protect the nexus from being shot at. This obviously is only a early/early-mid game problem, yet this is the stage that needs to be addressed in current tvp.
Finally, I am rather astonished about what you say about tank pushes. with the proposed changes,toss would be forced to play very passive to be safe while Terran now gets free siege, cheaper cloak and a cheaper armory while being able to build emergency turrents without the need for an engibay. Thus Terran mech pushes would hit harder and/or earlier with a lot less draw backs.
What? The power of the msc vs 1/1/1 tank pushes is the vision not Overcharge?
I'm sorry, but with less vision it can accomplish exactly the same, PO is 13 range, MSC vision is 11, Tanks 13, Vikings 9, Marines 5. You can still provide vision ezpz no risk exactly like vikings in tvt do. Msc vision reduce changes NOTHING in Tank vs PO Ne us.
Msc vision is 14 atm but even with 11 it would be alright, however, it was suggested to eliminate its vision or reduce it to a point it can't grant vision for stalkers to shoot up ramps (that would be about 3 range). With those changes PO would be useless against tanks
I think you misinterpret that suggestion people do. Stalkers shooting high ground or blinking, no problem. That's fine. BUT the huge vision range makes the blink 100% safe because you have perfect information AND the MSC is nigh undeniable.
Na, avilo is talking about nerfing the vision range to the point where you cannot pressure depots with MsC+stalkers anymore (which in numbers means like 6-7vision at most) and Destructicon talks about ranges where the MsC becomes vulnerable to provide highground vision, which (since the stalkers cover the MsC from beyond, so you can only snipe it if it has to be roughly at the ledge to provide reasonable vision for blinking) means again that the visionrange has to be quite tiny.
I think 11vision range would be quite reasonable, yet wouldn't touch blinkallins too much. (though it would make early game MsC scouting for Protoss a little harder).
On February 02 2014 02:57 aZealot wrote: Anyone been playing the test map rather than theory jerk?
Based on no variations of the map ever being popular or open on Custom Games; I think nobody will be testing it.
I think it's at the point where Blizzard should threaten to implement it anyway unless people (pros included) give actual feedback. Or they should maybe host an invitational with the changes up and offer a prize pool.
On February 02 2014 02:57 aZealot wrote: Anyone been playing the test map rather than theory jerk?
Based on no variations of the map ever being popular or open on Custom Games; I think nobody will be testing it.
I think it's at the point where Blizzard should threaten to implement it anyway unless people (pros included) give actual feedback. Or they should maybe host an invitational with the changes up and offer a prize pool.
They could also suggest sensible changes instead of breaking the game with Roaches/Hydras timings and not even addressing TvP issues.
On February 01 2014 22:29 Destructicon wrote: Damn, the amount off ignorance and hate being flung at Avilo is astounding.
Almost all the suggestions he has made are very sensible and much needed changes.
The problem with Protoss, the real imbalance is that they have way too many options, options that, also limit the options terrans can do. TvP late game isn't easy for Terran, but it isn't completely impossible either, you just need both T and P to enter it on even footing.
At the moment terrans can't enter it on even footing. The early aggressive options of toss, Oracles, Blink all-in, DTs etc, force the terran into using very safe and conservative builds. However because the builds are so safe protoss exploits them with extremely greedy builds, that can't be countered almost at all, because the MSC just gives way, way too much safety. Terran is thus stuck between a rock and a hard place, they can't be aggressive at all, because of MSC, but they also can't be too greedy, because of all the lethal pressure toss has.
Something has to give, its either the toss lose some of their defensive power, so terran can actually be aggressive and force toss to be less greedy, or toss itself loses some of its aggressive options so that terran can be more greedy and enter the late game even. The logic here is perfectly fine, I only see outbreaks of QQ from protosses, fearful they will actually have to put in some effort to play.
I see nothing wrong reverting the oracle speed, it was a dumb buff to begin with, it was contested and complained against since the very beginning, even protoss pros agreed that it was a bad change. The oracle limits terrans build order choices, you always have to play safe, you always need to take them into account, because if you don't you just die to it, there is no middle ground there.
I also don't see anything wrong with reducing the sight range of MSC. The MSC already breaks so many rules in the game, its a scouting tool, army support/utility and defensive tool, its too versatile, it has too much, it does too much. The MSC should never have been made so strong, its high time two of its utilities got cut, at the very least the sight range should be reduced so that terran can't have a free scout and free vision of the high ground, with zero counterplay to it.
DT Shrine cost was also stupid. Protoss is already very safe because of MSC, it stands to reason then that if defense is so cheep for them then their aggressive options, at least early game, should be more expensive, to balance things out, so they can't actually put on aggression while still staying 100% safe. You don't see any creative DT strats either, they are used as a gimmick early game to gain a huge lead, or they are used as a reliable harass tool late game in all MUs, the cost of it won't nerf it in the late game, but it will tone down the huge number of possible game ending aggressive options toss has in the early game.
Finally, I have it makes 0 sense anymore for Missile turret to require a engy bay to build, the missile turret can only shoot up, it also costs 100 damn minerals and you need at least 1 per mineral line to be safe. Spore was even changed to not require Evo chambers any more, I don't see why Missile turrets can't get the same treatment. I'm not sure about the sensor tower, I think that should still require an ebay.
I also agree with the armory change, it doesn't affect any unit balance, it helps with one of the core problems of mech, setting up infrastructure, because for the longest time you'll be working off 2 base and have to spend gas on upgrades, infrastructure (factories, SP and all their addons) as well as army, and you can't do it all at once off just 440 gas per minute, which leaves the mech army player with glaring weaknesses, since all of the above cost shit loads of gas.
Quite frankly I just think most of you are hating on Avilo for no good reason, almost none of you presented any counter arguments as to why his suggestions are bad, you only vaguely touch on how it should, supposedly, break TvP by swinging it in terran favor, but I've yet to see explanations as to how that would happen.
All I see is mindless bashing and bronze league logic used to counter quite sensible, actually very conservative proposals.
Edit: And since I seem to have went off topic slightly, I hate all the proposed changes, the only good one is the time warp change, but it doesn't do enough, all the changes are bad because they fail to address the appropriate issue in the appropriate way, but I already explained why in the last thread.
It's funny that you start your post with claiming that shit was flung at someone yet then you yourself resort to condescending or plain insulting language.
The problem with avilo's quite conservative proposals is, that in combination they are not conservative proposals anymore. It is a onesided approach to the issue that results in all problems for Terran solved while Toss would be where they were in the era of the infamous 1/1/1 with the added benefit of banshee buffs. Back then, the complains of Tosses were similar to those of Terrans today: lack of scouting info, variety of Terran harass options and macro follow ups as well a lack of harass options. Also, horribly strong Terran all ins (ie 1/1/1 or marine hellion drops)
Just some quick theorycrafting how avilo's changes would affect Tosses options: -Going DTs? Well with old cost and no engibay-turrets? Reduced to an all in that needs to do significant damage (which it should not do anymore). -Oracles? - slow oracles with turrets available on the fly basically make it the same as going DTs. on the other hand: -Tanks sieging your natural and cloaked banshees attacking your mineral line will be painfull without 14 vision range msc especially when you consider that tanks then would do bonus damage versus shields. This would be even stronger than in wol since tanks don't need siege mode research and cloak is considerably cheaper than it was back then.
All in all, the game would be back at super passive protoss turtle play with no aggressive options apart from heavy gateway all ins (only them being a lot weaker with widow mines, free siege mode and stuff)
I may reiterate that I don't find any one of those changes unreasonable in itself but they for sure add up and make mech play a round thing against Toss, while leaving Toss in a situation that reminds me very much of WoL and I don't want to think about the implications those change would have for PvZ.
You seem to have missed the point where I said that, Protoss is already extremely safe against terran aggression while being able to put on a load of pressure themselves or even kill, one of those has to be addressed. Its either toss defensive power needs to be toned down, to the point where terran can put on enough aggression to force the toss to potentially spend more gas on being safe (thus slowing their tech and reducing their greed), or the toss pressures need to be severely nerfed.
In the context of Toss still keeping their MSC defensive powers mostly intact (which is what this balance patch proposes), then having all the toss offensive options nerfed is a fair and justified. If you want toss to keep all its offensive toys then propose a nerf to the MSC defensive abilities, you can't have both extreme safety early game and extreme offensive power with no risk reward involved, that's not how an RTS is supposed to work.
I find it amusing you mention banshees, they are hard countered by almost anything in the protoss arsenal. If toss goes SG for quick oracle then they will be able to also make 1 phoenix to shut down the aggression. If they opened Robo they can get an obs and stalkers to chase it away.
Now, if siege tanks are sieging your nat, then you somehow lost your MSC early or threw down all your time warps willy nilly, which equates to you making a serious mistake and not having any Photon Overcharge, and if that results in you getting your nat nexus sieged then you fucked up royally and deserve to lose or got outplayed and still deserve to lose.
Even with Avilo's proposed changes the 1/1/1 is still trash, a simple move out with basic GW units and MSC just kills it, time warps prevent marines from kiting back and allow zealots to close the gap on marines and tanks. And even if the terran gets close to the nat a simple PO will keep the tanks out of range long enough to get Colossus. If you opened with SG its even more one sided because oracles can provide vision via revelation, can be used as as fighting units in conjuncture with GW units, way earlier I should add, leading to the quick destruction of the push, you can also add Phoenix in to kill banshees, much more effective then stalkers.
There is also no way a Terran player meching will push at you in the early game. A tank based army is very gas expensive, if he invested into that for a early push he is sacrificing infrastructure or upgrades, or both, and you gain a lead there, + he is sacrificing safety since he might not leave anything behind, and the mech army is still extremely fragile early game. So if he pushes with a tank based mech army at you early game and you didn't see it in time and crush it, then you, again made a very grave mistake and still deserve to lose.
And if its tanks sieging your nat late game, then the game is over anyway and you are just delaying the inevitable.
The reason I am using such an aggressive and condescending tone is because a lot of posters here have earned it, throwing around speculation with nearly no analysis behind it, they don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly.
I have not missed your point, I am just talking about avilo's proposals that you defended with regard to actually balancing and fixing the game. I am not proposing to keep the game as it is. I even agree that you have to somehow adjust the protoss aggressive and defensive options. However, taking away all the aggressive options completely can't be the solution. It might be fair if you want one side to be super passive and one having all the options but then we would just invert the roles in TvP instead of fixing the MU.
Also, you mentioning how amazing stargate vs 1/1/1 or banshees in general is. However, with avilo's changes going through, toss would not open stargate anymore since it would be almost useless against bio play.
And the power of the Msc and nexus cannon against tank based attacks is not that the nexus shoots but rather that the msc provides vision that is greater than the attack range of the tank.only that way you can actually protect the nexus from being shot at. This obviously is only a early/early-mid game problem, yet this is the stage that needs to be addressed in current tvp.
Finally, I am rather astonished about what you say about tank pushes. with the proposed changes,toss would be forced to play very passive to be safe while Terran now gets free siege, cheaper cloak and a cheaper armory while being able to build emergency turrents without the need for an engibay. Thus Terran mech pushes would hit harder and/or earlier with a lot less draw backs.
What? The power of the msc vs 1/1/1 tank pushes is the vision not Overcharge?
I'm sorry, but with less vision it can accomplish exactly the same, PO is 13 range, MSC vision is 11, Tanks 13, Vikings 9, Marines 5. You can still provide vision ezpz no risk exactly like vikings in tvt do. Msc vision reduce changes NOTHING in Tank vs PO Ne us.
Msc vision is 14 atm but even with 11 it would be alright, however, it was suggested to eliminate its vision or reduce it to a point it can't grant vision for stalkers to shoot up ramps (that would be about 3 range). With those changes PO would be useless against tanks
I think you misinterpret that suggestion people do. Stalkers shooting high ground or blinking, no problem. That's fine. BUT the huge vision range makes the blink 100% safe because you have perfect information AND the MSC is nigh undeniable.
I think 11vision range would be quite reasonable, yet wouldn't touch blinkallins too much. (though it would make early game MsC scouting for Protoss a little harder).
Then what's the point of the change? Why should there be an entire patch to fix a minor consistency issue instead of just waiting until lotv? I'd rather have Blizzard leave the game alone instead of constantly micromanaging it.
People should distrust serendipity. The msc vision range fix won't magically solve the game.
On February 02 2014 02:57 aZealot wrote: Anyone been playing the test map rather than theory jerk?
Based on no variations of the map ever being popular or open on Custom Games; I think nobody will be testing it.
I think it's at the point where Blizzard should threaten to implement it anyway unless people (pros included) give actual feedback. Or they should maybe host an invitational with the changes up and offer a prize pool.
I'm starting to question if they even listen to pro feedback at this point. We pointed out to them that the Queen buff was a bad idea, but it still went trough, we pointed out that the WM nerf would be a bad idea, it still went trough, we pointed out the oracle buff would be a bad idea, it still went trough.
There where countless pages worth of feedback on how to properly fix MSC and mech on TL and well as on Battle.net, nothing came of it.
On February 01 2014 22:29 Destructicon wrote: Damn, the amount off ignorance and hate being flung at Avilo is astounding.
Almost all the suggestions he has made are very sensible and much needed changes.
The problem with Protoss, the real imbalance is that they have way too many options, options that, also limit the options terrans can do. TvP late game isn't easy for Terran, but it isn't completely impossible either, you just need both T and P to enter it on even footing.
At the moment terrans can't enter it on even footing. The early aggressive options of toss, Oracles, Blink all-in, DTs etc, force the terran into using very safe and conservative builds. However because the builds are so safe protoss exploits them with extremely greedy builds, that can't be countered almost at all, because the MSC just gives way, way too much safety. Terran is thus stuck between a rock and a hard place, they can't be aggressive at all, because of MSC, but they also can't be too greedy, because of all the lethal pressure toss has.
Something has to give, its either the toss lose some of their defensive power, so terran can actually be aggressive and force toss to be less greedy, or toss itself loses some of its aggressive options so that terran can be more greedy and enter the late game even. The logic here is perfectly fine, I only see outbreaks of QQ from protosses, fearful they will actually have to put in some effort to play.
I see nothing wrong reverting the oracle speed, it was a dumb buff to begin with, it was contested and complained against since the very beginning, even protoss pros agreed that it was a bad change. The oracle limits terrans build order choices, you always have to play safe, you always need to take them into account, because if you don't you just die to it, there is no middle ground there.
I also don't see anything wrong with reducing the sight range of MSC. The MSC already breaks so many rules in the game, its a scouting tool, army support/utility and defensive tool, its too versatile, it has too much, it does too much. The MSC should never have been made so strong, its high time two of its utilities got cut, at the very least the sight range should be reduced so that terran can't have a free scout and free vision of the high ground, with zero counterplay to it.
DT Shrine cost was also stupid. Protoss is already very safe because of MSC, it stands to reason then that if defense is so cheep for them then their aggressive options, at least early game, should be more expensive, to balance things out, so they can't actually put on aggression while still staying 100% safe. You don't see any creative DT strats either, they are used as a gimmick early game to gain a huge lead, or they are used as a reliable harass tool late game in all MUs, the cost of it won't nerf it in the late game, but it will tone down the huge number of possible game ending aggressive options toss has in the early game.
Finally, I have it makes 0 sense anymore for Missile turret to require a engy bay to build, the missile turret can only shoot up, it also costs 100 damn minerals and you need at least 1 per mineral line to be safe. Spore was even changed to not require Evo chambers any more, I don't see why Missile turrets can't get the same treatment. I'm not sure about the sensor tower, I think that should still require an ebay.
I also agree with the armory change, it doesn't affect any unit balance, it helps with one of the core problems of mech, setting up infrastructure, because for the longest time you'll be working off 2 base and have to spend gas on upgrades, infrastructure (factories, SP and all their addons) as well as army, and you can't do it all at once off just 440 gas per minute, which leaves the mech army player with glaring weaknesses, since all of the above cost shit loads of gas.
Quite frankly I just think most of you are hating on Avilo for no good reason, almost none of you presented any counter arguments as to why his suggestions are bad, you only vaguely touch on how it should, supposedly, break TvP by swinging it in terran favor, but I've yet to see explanations as to how that would happen.
All I see is mindless bashing and bronze league logic used to counter quite sensible, actually very conservative proposals.
Edit: And since I seem to have went off topic slightly, I hate all the proposed changes, the only good one is the time warp change, but it doesn't do enough, all the changes are bad because they fail to address the appropriate issue in the appropriate way, but I already explained why in the last thread.
It's funny that you start your post with claiming that shit was flung at someone yet then you yourself resort to condescending or plain insulting language.
The problem with avilo's quite conservative proposals is, that in combination they are not conservative proposals anymore. It is a onesided approach to the issue that results in all problems for Terran solved while Toss would be where they were in the era of the infamous 1/1/1 with the added benefit of banshee buffs. Back then, the complains of Tosses were similar to those of Terrans today: lack of scouting info, variety of Terran harass options and macro follow ups as well a lack of harass options. Also, horribly strong Terran all ins (ie 1/1/1 or marine hellion drops)
Just some quick theorycrafting how avilo's changes would affect Tosses options: -Going DTs? Well with old cost and no engibay-turrets? Reduced to an all in that needs to do significant damage (which it should not do anymore). -Oracles? - slow oracles with turrets available on the fly basically make it the same as going DTs. on the other hand: -Tanks sieging your natural and cloaked banshees attacking your mineral line will be painfull without 14 vision range msc especially when you consider that tanks then would do bonus damage versus shields. This would be even stronger than in wol since tanks don't need siege mode research and cloak is considerably cheaper than it was back then.
All in all, the game would be back at super passive protoss turtle play with no aggressive options apart from heavy gateway all ins (only them being a lot weaker with widow mines, free siege mode and stuff)
I may reiterate that I don't find any one of those changes unreasonable in itself but they for sure add up and make mech play a round thing against Toss, while leaving Toss in a situation that reminds me very much of WoL and I don't want to think about the implications those change would have for PvZ.
You seem to have missed the point where I said that, Protoss is already extremely safe against terran aggression while being able to put on a load of pressure themselves or even kill, one of those has to be addressed. Its either toss defensive power needs to be toned down, to the point where terran can put on enough aggression to force the toss to potentially spend more gas on being safe (thus slowing their tech and reducing their greed), or the toss pressures need to be severely nerfed.
In the context of Toss still keeping their MSC defensive powers mostly intact (which is what this balance patch proposes), then having all the toss offensive options nerfed is a fair and justified. If you want toss to keep all its offensive toys then propose a nerf to the MSC defensive abilities, you can't have both extreme safety early game and extreme offensive power with no risk reward involved, that's not how an RTS is supposed to work.
I find it amusing you mention banshees, they are hard countered by almost anything in the protoss arsenal. If toss goes SG for quick oracle then they will be able to also make 1 phoenix to shut down the aggression. If they opened Robo they can get an obs and stalkers to chase it away.
Now, if siege tanks are sieging your nat, then you somehow lost your MSC early or threw down all your time warps willy nilly, which equates to you making a serious mistake and not having any Photon Overcharge, and if that results in you getting your nat nexus sieged then you fucked up royally and deserve to lose or got outplayed and still deserve to lose.
Even with Avilo's proposed changes the 1/1/1 is still trash, a simple move out with basic GW units and MSC just kills it, time warps prevent marines from kiting back and allow zealots to close the gap on marines and tanks. And even if the terran gets close to the nat a simple PO will keep the tanks out of range long enough to get Colossus. If you opened with SG its even more one sided because oracles can provide vision via revelation, can be used as as fighting units in conjuncture with GW units, way earlier I should add, leading to the quick destruction of the push, you can also add Phoenix in to kill banshees, much more effective then stalkers.
There is also no way a Terran player meching will push at you in the early game. A tank based army is very gas expensive, if he invested into that for a early push he is sacrificing infrastructure or upgrades, or both, and you gain a lead there, + he is sacrificing safety since he might not leave anything behind, and the mech army is still extremely fragile early game. So if he pushes with a tank based mech army at you early game and you didn't see it in time and crush it, then you, again made a very grave mistake and still deserve to lose.
And if its tanks sieging your nat late game, then the game is over anyway and you are just delaying the inevitable.
The reason I am using such an aggressive and condescending tone is because a lot of posters here have earned it, throwing around speculation with nearly no analysis behind it, they don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly.
I have not missed your point, I am just talking about avilo's proposals that you defended with regard to actually balancing and fixing the game. I am not proposing to keep the game as it is. I even agree that you have to somehow adjust the protoss aggressive and defensive options. However, taking away all the aggressive options completely can't be the solution. It might be fair if you want one side to be super passive and one having all the options but then we would just invert the roles in TvP instead of fixing the MU.
Also, you mentioning how amazing stargate vs 1/1/1 or banshees in general is. However, with avilo's changes going through, toss would not open stargate anymore since it would be almost useless against bio play.
And the power of the Msc and nexus cannon against tank based attacks is not that the nexus shoots but rather that the msc provides vision that is greater than the attack range of the tank.only that way you can actually protect the nexus from being shot at. This obviously is only a early/early-mid game problem, yet this is the stage that needs to be addressed in current tvp.
Finally, I am rather astonished about what you say about tank pushes. with the proposed changes,toss would be forced to play very passive to be safe while Terran now gets free siege, cheaper cloak and a cheaper armory while being able to build emergency turrents without the need for an engibay. Thus Terran mech pushes would hit harder and/or earlier with a lot less draw backs.
What? The power of the msc vs 1/1/1 tank pushes is the vision not Overcharge?
I'm sorry, but with less vision it can accomplish exactly the same, PO is 13 range, MSC vision is 11, Tanks 13, Vikings 9, Marines 5. You can still provide vision ezpz no risk exactly like vikings in tvt do. Msc vision reduce changes NOTHING in Tank vs PO Ne us.
Msc vision is 14 atm but even with 11 it would be alright, however, it was suggested to eliminate its vision or reduce it to a point it can't grant vision for stalkers to shoot up ramps (that would be about 3 range). With those changes PO would be useless against tanks
I think you misinterpret that suggestion people do. Stalkers shooting high ground or blinking, no problem. That's fine. BUT the huge vision range makes the blink 100% safe because you have perfect information AND the MSC is nigh undeniable.
I think 11vision range would be quite reasonable, yet wouldn't touch blinkallins too much. (though it would make early game MsC scouting for Protoss a little harder).
Then what's the point of the change? Why should there be an entire patch to fix a minor consistency issue instead of just waiting until lotv? I'd rather have Blizzard leave the game alone instead of constantly micromanaging it.
People should distrust serendipity. The msc vision range fix won't magically solve the game.
Indeed, but it's too late now. You cannot leave the game alone anymore or we are going to watch PvP finals in 75% of the tournaments until LotV.
On February 02 2014 02:57 aZealot wrote: Anyone been playing the test map rather than theory jerk?
Based on no variations of the map ever being popular or open on Custom Games; I think nobody will be testing it.
I think it's at the point where Blizzard should threaten to implement it anyway unless people (pros included) give actual feedback. Or they should maybe host an invitational with the changes up and offer a prize pool.
I'm starting to question if they even listen to pro feedback at this point. We pointed out to them that the Queen buff was a bad idea, but it still went trough, we pointed out that the WM nerf would be a bad idea, it still went trough, we pointed out the oracle buff would be a bad idea, it still went trough.
There where countless pages worth of feedback on how to properly fix MSC and mech on TL and well as on Battle.net, nothing came of it.
That's why I applaud when people still have the passion to try and make suggestions since I know DKim could care less what the community thinks.
On February 01 2014 22:29 Destructicon wrote: Damn, the amount off ignorance and hate being flung at Avilo is astounding.
Almost all the suggestions he has made are very sensible and much needed changes.
The problem with Protoss, the real imbalance is that they have way too many options, options that, also limit the options terrans can do. TvP late game isn't easy for Terran, but it isn't completely impossible either, you just need both T and P to enter it on even footing.
At the moment terrans can't enter it on even footing. The early aggressive options of toss, Oracles, Blink all-in, DTs etc, force the terran into using very safe and conservative builds. However because the builds are so safe protoss exploits them with extremely greedy builds, that can't be countered almost at all, because the MSC just gives way, way too much safety. Terran is thus stuck between a rock and a hard place, they can't be aggressive at all, because of MSC, but they also can't be too greedy, because of all the lethal pressure toss has.
Something has to give, its either the toss lose some of their defensive power, so terran can actually be aggressive and force toss to be less greedy, or toss itself loses some of its aggressive options so that terran can be more greedy and enter the late game even. The logic here is perfectly fine, I only see outbreaks of QQ from protosses, fearful they will actually have to put in some effort to play.
I see nothing wrong reverting the oracle speed, it was a dumb buff to begin with, it was contested and complained against since the very beginning, even protoss pros agreed that it was a bad change. The oracle limits terrans build order choices, you always have to play safe, you always need to take them into account, because if you don't you just die to it, there is no middle ground there.
I also don't see anything wrong with reducing the sight range of MSC. The MSC already breaks so many rules in the game, its a scouting tool, army support/utility and defensive tool, its too versatile, it has too much, it does too much. The MSC should never have been made so strong, its high time two of its utilities got cut, at the very least the sight range should be reduced so that terran can't have a free scout and free vision of the high ground, with zero counterplay to it.
DT Shrine cost was also stupid. Protoss is already very safe because of MSC, it stands to reason then that if defense is so cheep for them then their aggressive options, at least early game, should be more expensive, to balance things out, so they can't actually put on aggression while still staying 100% safe. You don't see any creative DT strats either, they are used as a gimmick early game to gain a huge lead, or they are used as a reliable harass tool late game in all MUs, the cost of it won't nerf it in the late game, but it will tone down the huge number of possible game ending aggressive options toss has in the early game.
Finally, I have it makes 0 sense anymore for Missile turret to require a engy bay to build, the missile turret can only shoot up, it also costs 100 damn minerals and you need at least 1 per mineral line to be safe. Spore was even changed to not require Evo chambers any more, I don't see why Missile turrets can't get the same treatment. I'm not sure about the sensor tower, I think that should still require an ebay.
I also agree with the armory change, it doesn't affect any unit balance, it helps with one of the core problems of mech, setting up infrastructure, because for the longest time you'll be working off 2 base and have to spend gas on upgrades, infrastructure (factories, SP and all their addons) as well as army, and you can't do it all at once off just 440 gas per minute, which leaves the mech army player with glaring weaknesses, since all of the above cost shit loads of gas.
Quite frankly I just think most of you are hating on Avilo for no good reason, almost none of you presented any counter arguments as to why his suggestions are bad, you only vaguely touch on how it should, supposedly, break TvP by swinging it in terran favor, but I've yet to see explanations as to how that would happen.
All I see is mindless bashing and bronze league logic used to counter quite sensible, actually very conservative proposals.
Edit: And since I seem to have went off topic slightly, I hate all the proposed changes, the only good one is the time warp change, but it doesn't do enough, all the changes are bad because they fail to address the appropriate issue in the appropriate way, but I already explained why in the last thread.
It's funny that you start your post with claiming that shit was flung at someone yet then you yourself resort to condescending or plain insulting language.
The problem with avilo's quite conservative proposals is, that in combination they are not conservative proposals anymore. It is a onesided approach to the issue that results in all problems for Terran solved while Toss would be where they were in the era of the infamous 1/1/1 with the added benefit of banshee buffs. Back then, the complains of Tosses were similar to those of Terrans today: lack of scouting info, variety of Terran harass options and macro follow ups as well a lack of harass options. Also, horribly strong Terran all ins (ie 1/1/1 or marine hellion drops)
Just some quick theorycrafting how avilo's changes would affect Tosses options: -Going DTs? Well with old cost and no engibay-turrets? Reduced to an all in that needs to do significant damage (which it should not do anymore). -Oracles? - slow oracles with turrets available on the fly basically make it the same as going DTs. on the other hand: -Tanks sieging your natural and cloaked banshees attacking your mineral line will be painfull without 14 vision range msc especially when you consider that tanks then would do bonus damage versus shields. This would be even stronger than in wol since tanks don't need siege mode research and cloak is considerably cheaper than it was back then.
All in all, the game would be back at super passive protoss turtle play with no aggressive options apart from heavy gateway all ins (only them being a lot weaker with widow mines, free siege mode and stuff)
I may reiterate that I don't find any one of those changes unreasonable in itself but they for sure add up and make mech play a round thing against Toss, while leaving Toss in a situation that reminds me very much of WoL and I don't want to think about the implications those change would have for PvZ.
You seem to have missed the point where I said that, Protoss is already extremely safe against terran aggression while being able to put on a load of pressure themselves or even kill, one of those has to be addressed. Its either toss defensive power needs to be toned down, to the point where terran can put on enough aggression to force the toss to potentially spend more gas on being safe (thus slowing their tech and reducing their greed), or the toss pressures need to be severely nerfed.
In the context of Toss still keeping their MSC defensive powers mostly intact (which is what this balance patch proposes), then having all the toss offensive options nerfed is a fair and justified. If you want toss to keep all its offensive toys then propose a nerf to the MSC defensive abilities, you can't have both extreme safety early game and extreme offensive power with no risk reward involved, that's not how an RTS is supposed to work.
I find it amusing you mention banshees, they are hard countered by almost anything in the protoss arsenal. If toss goes SG for quick oracle then they will be able to also make 1 phoenix to shut down the aggression. If they opened Robo they can get an obs and stalkers to chase it away.
Now, if siege tanks are sieging your nat, then you somehow lost your MSC early or threw down all your time warps willy nilly, which equates to you making a serious mistake and not having any Photon Overcharge, and if that results in you getting your nat nexus sieged then you fucked up royally and deserve to lose or got outplayed and still deserve to lose.
Even with Avilo's proposed changes the 1/1/1 is still trash, a simple move out with basic GW units and MSC just kills it, time warps prevent marines from kiting back and allow zealots to close the gap on marines and tanks. And even if the terran gets close to the nat a simple PO will keep the tanks out of range long enough to get Colossus. If you opened with SG its even more one sided because oracles can provide vision via revelation, can be used as as fighting units in conjuncture with GW units, way earlier I should add, leading to the quick destruction of the push, you can also add Phoenix in to kill banshees, much more effective then stalkers.
There is also no way a Terran player meching will push at you in the early game. A tank based army is very gas expensive, if he invested into that for a early push he is sacrificing infrastructure or upgrades, or both, and you gain a lead there, + he is sacrificing safety since he might not leave anything behind, and the mech army is still extremely fragile early game. So if he pushes with a tank based mech army at you early game and you didn't see it in time and crush it, then you, again made a very grave mistake and still deserve to lose.
And if its tanks sieging your nat late game, then the game is over anyway and you are just delaying the inevitable.
The reason I am using such an aggressive and condescending tone is because a lot of posters here have earned it, throwing around speculation with nearly no analysis behind it, they don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly.
I have not missed your point, I am just talking about avilo's proposals that you defended with regard to actually balancing and fixing the game. I am not proposing to keep the game as it is. I even agree that you have to somehow adjust the protoss aggressive and defensive options. However, taking away all the aggressive options completely can't be the solution. It might be fair if you want one side to be super passive and one having all the options but then we would just invert the roles in TvP instead of fixing the MU.
Also, you mentioning how amazing stargate vs 1/1/1 or banshees in general is. However, with avilo's changes going through, toss would not open stargate anymore since it would be almost useless against bio play.
And the power of the Msc and nexus cannon against tank based attacks is not that the nexus shoots but rather that the msc provides vision that is greater than the attack range of the tank.only that way you can actually protect the nexus from being shot at. This obviously is only a early/early-mid game problem, yet this is the stage that needs to be addressed in current tvp.
Finally, I am rather astonished about what you say about tank pushes. with the proposed changes,toss would be forced to play very passive to be safe while Terran now gets free siege, cheaper cloak and a cheaper armory while being able to build emergency turrents without the need for an engibay. Thus Terran mech pushes would hit harder and/or earlier with a lot less draw backs.
What? The power of the msc vs 1/1/1 tank pushes is the vision not Overcharge?
I'm sorry, but with less vision it can accomplish exactly the same, PO is 13 range, MSC vision is 11, Tanks 13, Vikings 9, Marines 5. You can still provide vision ezpz no risk exactly like vikings in tvt do. Msc vision reduce changes NOTHING in Tank vs PO Ne us.
Msc vision is 14 atm but even with 11 it would be alright, however, it was suggested to eliminate its vision or reduce it to a point it can't grant vision for stalkers to shoot up ramps (that would be about 3 range). With those changes PO would be useless against tanks
I think you misinterpret that suggestion people do. Stalkers shooting high ground or blinking, no problem. That's fine. BUT the huge vision range makes the blink 100% safe because you have perfect information AND the MSC is nigh undeniable.
I think 11vision range would be quite reasonable, yet wouldn't touch blinkallins too much. (though it would make early game MsC scouting for Protoss a little harder).
Then what's the point of the change? Why should there be an entire patch to fix a minor consistency issue instead of just waiting until lotv? I'd rather have Blizzard leave the game alone instead of constantly micromanaging it.
People should distrust serendipity. The msc vision range fix won't magically solve the game.
Indeed, but it's too late now. You cannot leave the game alone anymore or we are going to watch PvP finals in 75% of the tournaments until LotV.
Plus we're not even a year into HotS yet. Could you imagine if Blizz left P untouched for another year or more. Spectators would leave HotS faster than they did WoL when zerg dominated every tournament.
On February 01 2014 22:29 Destructicon wrote: Damn, the amount off ignorance and hate being flung at Avilo is astounding.
Almost all the suggestions he has made are very sensible and much needed changes.
The problem with Protoss, the real imbalance is that they have way too many options, options that, also limit the options terrans can do. TvP late game isn't easy for Terran, but it isn't completely impossible either, you just need both T and P to enter it on even footing.
At the moment terrans can't enter it on even footing. The early aggressive options of toss, Oracles, Blink all-in, DTs etc, force the terran into using very safe and conservative builds. However because the builds are so safe protoss exploits them with extremely greedy builds, that can't be countered almost at all, because the MSC just gives way, way too much safety. Terran is thus stuck between a rock and a hard place, they can't be aggressive at all, because of MSC, but they also can't be too greedy, because of all the lethal pressure toss has.
Something has to give, its either the toss lose some of their defensive power, so terran can actually be aggressive and force toss to be less greedy, or toss itself loses some of its aggressive options so that terran can be more greedy and enter the late game even. The logic here is perfectly fine, I only see outbreaks of QQ from protosses, fearful they will actually have to put in some effort to play.
I see nothing wrong reverting the oracle speed, it was a dumb buff to begin with, it was contested and complained against since the very beginning, even protoss pros agreed that it was a bad change. The oracle limits terrans build order choices, you always have to play safe, you always need to take them into account, because if you don't you just die to it, there is no middle ground there.
I also don't see anything wrong with reducing the sight range of MSC. The MSC already breaks so many rules in the game, its a scouting tool, army support/utility and defensive tool, its too versatile, it has too much, it does too much. The MSC should never have been made so strong, its high time two of its utilities got cut, at the very least the sight range should be reduced so that terran can't have a free scout and free vision of the high ground, with zero counterplay to it.
DT Shrine cost was also stupid. Protoss is already very safe because of MSC, it stands to reason then that if defense is so cheep for them then their aggressive options, at least early game, should be more expensive, to balance things out, so they can't actually put on aggression while still staying 100% safe. You don't see any creative DT strats either, they are used as a gimmick early game to gain a huge lead, or they are used as a reliable harass tool late game in all MUs, the cost of it won't nerf it in the late game, but it will tone down the huge number of possible game ending aggressive options toss has in the early game.
Finally, I have it makes 0 sense anymore for Missile turret to require a engy bay to build, the missile turret can only shoot up, it also costs 100 damn minerals and you need at least 1 per mineral line to be safe. Spore was even changed to not require Evo chambers any more, I don't see why Missile turrets can't get the same treatment. I'm not sure about the sensor tower, I think that should still require an ebay.
I also agree with the armory change, it doesn't affect any unit balance, it helps with one of the core problems of mech, setting up infrastructure, because for the longest time you'll be working off 2 base and have to spend gas on upgrades, infrastructure (factories, SP and all their addons) as well as army, and you can't do it all at once off just 440 gas per minute, which leaves the mech army player with glaring weaknesses, since all of the above cost shit loads of gas.
Quite frankly I just think most of you are hating on Avilo for no good reason, almost none of you presented any counter arguments as to why his suggestions are bad, you only vaguely touch on how it should, supposedly, break TvP by swinging it in terran favor, but I've yet to see explanations as to how that would happen.
All I see is mindless bashing and bronze league logic used to counter quite sensible, actually very conservative proposals.
Edit: And since I seem to have went off topic slightly, I hate all the proposed changes, the only good one is the time warp change, but it doesn't do enough, all the changes are bad because they fail to address the appropriate issue in the appropriate way, but I already explained why in the last thread.
It's funny that you start your post with claiming that shit was flung at someone yet then you yourself resort to condescending or plain insulting language.
The problem with avilo's quite conservative proposals is, that in combination they are not conservative proposals anymore. It is a onesided approach to the issue that results in all problems for Terran solved while Toss would be where they were in the era of the infamous 1/1/1 with the added benefit of banshee buffs. Back then, the complains of Tosses were similar to those of Terrans today: lack of scouting info, variety of Terran harass options and macro follow ups as well a lack of harass options. Also, horribly strong Terran all ins (ie 1/1/1 or marine hellion drops)
Just some quick theorycrafting how avilo's changes would affect Tosses options: -Going DTs? Well with old cost and no engibay-turrets? Reduced to an all in that needs to do significant damage (which it should not do anymore). -Oracles? - slow oracles with turrets available on the fly basically make it the same as going DTs. on the other hand: -Tanks sieging your natural and cloaked banshees attacking your mineral line will be painfull without 14 vision range msc especially when you consider that tanks then would do bonus damage versus shields. This would be even stronger than in wol since tanks don't need siege mode research and cloak is considerably cheaper than it was back then.
All in all, the game would be back at super passive protoss turtle play with no aggressive options apart from heavy gateway all ins (only them being a lot weaker with widow mines, free siege mode and stuff)
I may reiterate that I don't find any one of those changes unreasonable in itself but they for sure add up and make mech play a round thing against Toss, while leaving Toss in a situation that reminds me very much of WoL and I don't want to think about the implications those change would have for PvZ.
You seem to have missed the point where I said that, Protoss is already extremely safe against terran aggression while being able to put on a load of pressure themselves or even kill, one of those has to be addressed. Its either toss defensive power needs to be toned down, to the point where terran can put on enough aggression to force the toss to potentially spend more gas on being safe (thus slowing their tech and reducing their greed), or the toss pressures need to be severely nerfed.
In the context of Toss still keeping their MSC defensive powers mostly intact (which is what this balance patch proposes), then having all the toss offensive options nerfed is a fair and justified. If you want toss to keep all its offensive toys then propose a nerf to the MSC defensive abilities, you can't have both extreme safety early game and extreme offensive power with no risk reward involved, that's not how an RTS is supposed to work.
I find it amusing you mention banshees, they are hard countered by almost anything in the protoss arsenal. If toss goes SG for quick oracle then they will be able to also make 1 phoenix to shut down the aggression. If they opened Robo they can get an obs and stalkers to chase it away.
Now, if siege tanks are sieging your nat, then you somehow lost your MSC early or threw down all your time warps willy nilly, which equates to you making a serious mistake and not having any Photon Overcharge, and if that results in you getting your nat nexus sieged then you fucked up royally and deserve to lose or got outplayed and still deserve to lose.
Even with Avilo's proposed changes the 1/1/1 is still trash, a simple move out with basic GW units and MSC just kills it, time warps prevent marines from kiting back and allow zealots to close the gap on marines and tanks. And even if the terran gets close to the nat a simple PO will keep the tanks out of range long enough to get Colossus. If you opened with SG its even more one sided because oracles can provide vision via revelation, can be used as as fighting units in conjuncture with GW units, way earlier I should add, leading to the quick destruction of the push, you can also add Phoenix in to kill banshees, much more effective then stalkers.
There is also no way a Terran player meching will push at you in the early game. A tank based army is very gas expensive, if he invested into that for a early push he is sacrificing infrastructure or upgrades, or both, and you gain a lead there, + he is sacrificing safety since he might not leave anything behind, and the mech army is still extremely fragile early game. So if he pushes with a tank based mech army at you early game and you didn't see it in time and crush it, then you, again made a very grave mistake and still deserve to lose.
And if its tanks sieging your nat late game, then the game is over anyway and you are just delaying the inevitable.
The reason I am using such an aggressive and condescending tone is because a lot of posters here have earned it, throwing around speculation with nearly no analysis behind it, they don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly.
I have not missed your point, I am just talking about avilo's proposals that you defended with regard to actually balancing and fixing the game. I am not proposing to keep the game as it is. I even agree that you have to somehow adjust the protoss aggressive and defensive options. However, taking away all the aggressive options completely can't be the solution. It might be fair if you want one side to be super passive and one having all the options but then we would just invert the roles in TvP instead of fixing the MU.
Also, you mentioning how amazing stargate vs 1/1/1 or banshees in general is. However, with avilo's changes going through, toss would not open stargate anymore since it would be almost useless against bio play.
And the power of the Msc and nexus cannon against tank based attacks is not that the nexus shoots but rather that the msc provides vision that is greater than the attack range of the tank.only that way you can actually protect the nexus from being shot at. This obviously is only a early/early-mid game problem, yet this is the stage that needs to be addressed in current tvp.
Finally, I am rather astonished about what you say about tank pushes. with the proposed changes,toss would be forced to play very passive to be safe while Terran now gets free siege, cheaper cloak and a cheaper armory while being able to build emergency turrents without the need for an engibay. Thus Terran mech pushes would hit harder and/or earlier with a lot less draw backs.
What? The power of the msc vs 1/1/1 tank pushes is the vision not Overcharge?
I'm sorry, but with less vision it can accomplish exactly the same, PO is 13 range, MSC vision is 11, Tanks 13, Vikings 9, Marines 5. You can still provide vision ezpz no risk exactly like vikings in tvt do. Msc vision reduce changes NOTHING in Tank vs PO Ne us.
Msc vision is 14 atm but even with 11 it would be alright, however, it was suggested to eliminate its vision or reduce it to a point it can't grant vision for stalkers to shoot up ramps (that would be about 3 range). With those changes PO would be useless against tanks
I think you misinterpret that suggestion people do. Stalkers shooting high ground or blinking, no problem. That's fine. BUT the huge vision range makes the blink 100% safe because you have perfect information AND the MSC is nigh undeniable.
I think 11vision range would be quite reasonable, yet wouldn't touch blinkallins too much. (though it would make early game MsC scouting for Protoss a little harder).
Then what's the point of the change? Why should there be an entire patch to fix a minor consistency issue instead of just waiting until lotv? I'd rather have Blizzard leave the game alone instead of constantly micromanaging it.
People should distrust serendipity. The msc vision range fix won't magically solve the game.
I don't see the reason why blizzard should leave the game alone. I enjoy balance patches a lot and think they are hitting the board 90% of the time with them, even if they keep on missing the bullseye.
And inconsistencies are exactly what should get patched, unless there would be a reasonable explanation for that inconsistency.
On February 02 2014 02:57 aZealot wrote: Anyone been playing the test map rather than theory jerk?
Based on no variations of the map ever being popular or open on Custom Games; I think nobody will be testing it.
I think it's at the point where Blizzard should threaten to implement it anyway unless people (pros included) give actual feedback. Or they should maybe host an invitational with the changes up and offer a prize pool.
Yeah, I tried to get some games on it last night. But only got one game. Tried a couple more times but no-one joined. Maybe I did not wait long enough (as I was laddering in between and was keen to get back to it). I'll try again later today.
But, you are right. If hardly anyone plays, test maps are not that useful for anybody and gives little information back to Blizzard (even if I doubt that information from test is all that useful other than in identifying things are just utterly wrong).
On February 02 2014 02:57 aZealot wrote: Anyone been playing the test map rather than theory jerk?
Based on no variations of the map ever being popular or open on Custom Games; I think nobody will be testing it.
I think it's at the point where Blizzard should threaten to implement it anyway unless people (pros included) give actual feedback. Or they should maybe host an invitational with the changes up and offer a prize pool.
I'm starting to question if they even listen to pro feedback at this point. We pointed out to them that the Queen buff was a bad idea, but it still went trough, we pointed out that the WM nerf would be a bad idea, it still went trough, we pointed out the oracle buff would be a bad idea, it still went trough.
There where countless pages worth of feedback on how to properly fix MSC and mech on TL and well as on Battle.net, nothing came of it.
Er, who is "we"? Quite a lot of people were in favour of the Queen buff (and some still are). And many Z were asking for a WM nerf. You are right about the Oracle though, I think. I can't remember anybody who was in favour of that change.
On February 02 2014 02:57 aZealot wrote: Anyone been playing the test map rather than theory jerk?
Based on no variations of the map ever being popular or open on Custom Games; I think nobody will be testing it.
I think it's at the point where Blizzard should threaten to implement it anyway unless people (pros included) give actual feedback. Or they should maybe host an invitational with the changes up and offer a prize pool.
I'm starting to question if they even listen to pro feedback at this point. We pointed out to them that the Queen buff was a bad idea, but it still went trough, we pointed out that the WM nerf would be a bad idea, it still went trough, we pointed out the oracle buff would be a bad idea, it still went trough.
There where countless pages worth of feedback on how to properly fix MSC and mech on TL and well as on Battle.net, nothing came of it.
Er, who is "we"? Quite a lot of people were in favour of the Queen buff (and some still are). And many Z were asking for a WM nerf. You are right about the Oracle though, I think. I can't remember anybody who was in favour of that change.
There where pro gamers that called out the Queen buff, saying it was too much, I specifically remember DRG saying it was bad and it would make terran weak, it could be Symbol as well.
On February 02 2014 02:57 aZealot wrote: Anyone been playing the test map rather than theory jerk?
Based on no variations of the map ever being popular or open on Custom Games; I think nobody will be testing it.
I think it's at the point where Blizzard should threaten to implement it anyway unless people (pros included) give actual feedback. Or they should maybe host an invitational with the changes up and offer a prize pool.
I'm starting to question if they even listen to pro feedback at this point. We pointed out to them that the Queen buff was a bad idea, but it still went trough, we pointed out that the WM nerf would be a bad idea, it still went trough, we pointed out the oracle buff would be a bad idea, it still went trough.
There where countless pages worth of feedback on how to properly fix MSC and mech on TL and well as on Battle.net, nothing came of it.
Er, who is "we"? Quite a lot of people were in favour of the Queen buff (and some still are). And many Z were asking for a WM nerf. You are right about the Oracle though, I think. I can't remember anybody who was in favour of that change.
There where pro gamers that called out the Queen buff, saying it was too much, I specifically remember DRG saying it was bad and it would make terran weak, it could be Symbol as well.
Yes, I know. I am just saying that there was no unanimous or near unanimous agreement. There never has been with most of Blizzard's patches. Especially when race bias and the current state of a match-up is taken into account.
(Come to that, even with the Queen buff was it the Queen that was the issue or the Infestor? Not that I want to get into that.)
Does anyone else feel Blizzard is extremely Arrogant in their changes? They almost never remove/undo a change despite community feedback and it feels like they deliberatly avoid adding changes proposed by the community.
On February 01 2014 22:29 Destructicon wrote: Damn, the amount off ignorance and hate being flung at Avilo is astounding.
Almost all the suggestions he has made are very sensible and much needed changes.
The problem with Protoss, the real imbalance is that they have way too many options, options that, also limit the options terrans can do. TvP late game isn't easy for Terran, but it isn't completely impossible either, you just need both T and P to enter it on even footing.
At the moment terrans can't enter it on even footing. The early aggressive options of toss, Oracles, Blink all-in, DTs etc, force the terran into using very safe and conservative builds. However because the builds are so safe protoss exploits them with extremely greedy builds, that can't be countered almost at all, because the MSC just gives way, way too much safety. Terran is thus stuck between a rock and a hard place, they can't be aggressive at all, because of MSC, but they also can't be too greedy, because of all the lethal pressure toss has.
Something has to give, its either the toss lose some of their defensive power, so terran can actually be aggressive and force toss to be less greedy, or toss itself loses some of its aggressive options so that terran can be more greedy and enter the late game even. The logic here is perfectly fine, I only see outbreaks of QQ from protosses, fearful they will actually have to put in some effort to play.
I see nothing wrong reverting the oracle speed, it was a dumb buff to begin with, it was contested and complained against since the very beginning, even protoss pros agreed that it was a bad change. The oracle limits terrans build order choices, you always have to play safe, you always need to take them into account, because if you don't you just die to it, there is no middle ground there.
I also don't see anything wrong with reducing the sight range of MSC. The MSC already breaks so many rules in the game, its a scouting tool, army support/utility and defensive tool, its too versatile, it has too much, it does too much. The MSC should never have been made so strong, its high time two of its utilities got cut, at the very least the sight range should be reduced so that terran can't have a free scout and free vision of the high ground, with zero counterplay to it.
DT Shrine cost was also stupid. Protoss is already very safe because of MSC, it stands to reason then that if defense is so cheep for them then their aggressive options, at least early game, should be more expensive, to balance things out, so they can't actually put on aggression while still staying 100% safe. You don't see any creative DT strats either, they are used as a gimmick early game to gain a huge lead, or they are used as a reliable harass tool late game in all MUs, the cost of it won't nerf it in the late game, but it will tone down the huge number of possible game ending aggressive options toss has in the early game.
Finally, I have it makes 0 sense anymore for Missile turret to require a engy bay to build, the missile turret can only shoot up, it also costs 100 damn minerals and you need at least 1 per mineral line to be safe. Spore was even changed to not require Evo chambers any more, I don't see why Missile turrets can't get the same treatment. I'm not sure about the sensor tower, I think that should still require an ebay.
I also agree with the armory change, it doesn't affect any unit balance, it helps with one of the core problems of mech, setting up infrastructure, because for the longest time you'll be working off 2 base and have to spend gas on upgrades, infrastructure (factories, SP and all their addons) as well as army, and you can't do it all at once off just 440 gas per minute, which leaves the mech army player with glaring weaknesses, since all of the above cost shit loads of gas.
Quite frankly I just think most of you are hating on Avilo for no good reason, almost none of you presented any counter arguments as to why his suggestions are bad, you only vaguely touch on how it should, supposedly, break TvP by swinging it in terran favor, but I've yet to see explanations as to how that would happen.
All I see is mindless bashing and bronze league logic used to counter quite sensible, actually very conservative proposals.
Edit: And since I seem to have went off topic slightly, I hate all the proposed changes, the only good one is the time warp change, but it doesn't do enough, all the changes are bad because they fail to address the appropriate issue in the appropriate way, but I already explained why in the last thread.
It's funny that you start your post with claiming that shit was flung at someone yet then you yourself resort to condescending or plain insulting language.
The problem with avilo's quite conservative proposals is, that in combination they are not conservative proposals anymore. It is a onesided approach to the issue that results in all problems for Terran solved while Toss would be where they were in the era of the infamous 1/1/1 with the added benefit of banshee buffs. Back then, the complains of Tosses were similar to those of Terrans today: lack of scouting info, variety of Terran harass options and macro follow ups as well a lack of harass options. Also, horribly strong Terran all ins (ie 1/1/1 or marine hellion drops)
Just some quick theorycrafting how avilo's changes would affect Tosses options: -Going DTs? Well with old cost and no engibay-turrets? Reduced to an all in that needs to do significant damage (which it should not do anymore). -Oracles? - slow oracles with turrets available on the fly basically make it the same as going DTs. on the other hand: -Tanks sieging your natural and cloaked banshees attacking your mineral line will be painfull without 14 vision range msc especially when you consider that tanks then would do bonus damage versus shields. This would be even stronger than in wol since tanks don't need siege mode research and cloak is considerably cheaper than it was back then.
All in all, the game would be back at super passive protoss turtle play with no aggressive options apart from heavy gateway all ins (only them being a lot weaker with widow mines, free siege mode and stuff)
I may reiterate that I don't find any one of those changes unreasonable in itself but they for sure add up and make mech play a round thing against Toss, while leaving Toss in a situation that reminds me very much of WoL and I don't want to think about the implications those change would have for PvZ.
You seem to have missed the point where I said that, Protoss is already extremely safe against terran aggression while being able to put on a load of pressure themselves or even kill, one of those has to be addressed. Its either toss defensive power needs to be toned down, to the point where terran can put on enough aggression to force the toss to potentially spend more gas on being safe (thus slowing their tech and reducing their greed), or the toss pressures need to be severely nerfed.
In the context of Toss still keeping their MSC defensive powers mostly intact (which is what this balance patch proposes), then having all the toss offensive options nerfed is a fair and justified. If you want toss to keep all its offensive toys then propose a nerf to the MSC defensive abilities, you can't have both extreme safety early game and extreme offensive power with no risk reward involved, that's not how an RTS is supposed to work.
I find it amusing you mention banshees, they are hard countered by almost anything in the protoss arsenal. If toss goes SG for quick oracle then they will be able to also make 1 phoenix to shut down the aggression. If they opened Robo they can get an obs and stalkers to chase it away.
Now, if siege tanks are sieging your nat, then you somehow lost your MSC early or threw down all your time warps willy nilly, which equates to you making a serious mistake and not having any Photon Overcharge, and if that results in you getting your nat nexus sieged then you fucked up royally and deserve to lose or got outplayed and still deserve to lose.
Even with Avilo's proposed changes the 1/1/1 is still trash, a simple move out with basic GW units and MSC just kills it, time warps prevent marines from kiting back and allow zealots to close the gap on marines and tanks. And even if the terran gets close to the nat a simple PO will keep the tanks out of range long enough to get Colossus. If you opened with SG its even more one sided because oracles can provide vision via revelation, can be used as as fighting units in conjuncture with GW units, way earlier I should add, leading to the quick destruction of the push, you can also add Phoenix in to kill banshees, much more effective then stalkers.
There is also no way a Terran player meching will push at you in the early game. A tank based army is very gas expensive, if he invested into that for a early push he is sacrificing infrastructure or upgrades, or both, and you gain a lead there, + he is sacrificing safety since he might not leave anything behind, and the mech army is still extremely fragile early game. So if he pushes with a tank based mech army at you early game and you didn't see it in time and crush it, then you, again made a very grave mistake and still deserve to lose.
And if its tanks sieging your nat late game, then the game is over anyway and you are just delaying the inevitable.
The reason I am using such an aggressive and condescending tone is because a lot of posters here have earned it, throwing around speculation with nearly no analysis behind it, they don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly.
I have not missed your point, I am just talking about avilo's proposals that you defended with regard to actually balancing and fixing the game. I am not proposing to keep the game as it is. I even agree that you have to somehow adjust the protoss aggressive and defensive options. However, taking away all the aggressive options completely can't be the solution. It might be fair if you want one side to be super passive and one having all the options but then we would just invert the roles in TvP instead of fixing the MU.
Also, you mentioning how amazing stargate vs 1/1/1 or banshees in general is. However, with avilo's changes going through, toss would not open stargate anymore since it would be almost useless against bio play.
And the power of the Msc and nexus cannon against tank based attacks is not that the nexus shoots but rather that the msc provides vision that is greater than the attack range of the tank.only that way you can actually protect the nexus from being shot at. This obviously is only a early/early-mid game problem, yet this is the stage that needs to be addressed in current tvp.
Finally, I am rather astonished about what you say about tank pushes. with the proposed changes,toss would be forced to play very passive to be safe while Terran now gets free siege, cheaper cloak and a cheaper armory while being able to build emergency turrents without the need for an engibay. Thus Terran mech pushes would hit harder and/or earlier with a lot less draw backs.
What? The power of the msc vs 1/1/1 tank pushes is the vision not Overcharge?
I'm sorry, but with less vision it can accomplish exactly the same, PO is 13 range, MSC vision is 11, Tanks 13, Vikings 9, Marines 5. You can still provide vision ezpz no risk exactly like vikings in tvt do. Msc vision reduce changes NOTHING in Tank vs PO Ne us.
Msc vision is 14 atm but even with 11 it would be alright, however, it was suggested to eliminate its vision or reduce it to a point it can't grant vision for stalkers to shoot up ramps (that would be about 3 range). With those changes PO would be useless against tanks
I think you misinterpret that suggestion people do. Stalkers shooting high ground or blinking, no problem. That's fine. BUT the huge vision range makes the blink 100% safe because you have perfect information AND the MSC is nigh undeniable.
Na, avilo is talking about nerfing the vision range to the point where you cannot pressure depots with MsC+stalkers anymore (which in numbers means like 6-7vision at most) and Destructicon talks about ranges where the MsC becomes vulnerable to provide highground vision, which (since the stalkers cover the MsC from beyond, so you can only snipe it if it has to be roughly at the ledge to provide reasonable vision for blinking) means again that the visionrange has to be quite tiny.
I think 11vision range would be quite reasonable, yet wouldn't touch blinkallins too much. (though it would make early game MsC scouting for Protoss a little harder).
Ok. Those are just stupid suggestions.
I'd vouch for 9 to 11 (ground units = 9, air units =11), preferably 11.
On February 02 2014 02:43 SiroKO wrote: Blizzard have genious developpers and artists, but their balance teams are among the worse you could think of.
They're actually pretty good at balance, it's good game design they don't get. Focus is on making it 50/50 x3 winrates not on making it interesting for all parties and the viewer, while dogmatically clinging onto early design mistakes. Forcefield and warp in as primary mechanics are not up for negotiation.
All of Protosses options are best in chokes, all of Zerg when its wide open even defensively. Couple that with the lack of a defensive high ground advantage (vision was to an extent but that's now gone with the MSC). Map design can't really make up for things like it did in Brood War because it has to be conscious of this. Throw in a pile of super hard counters to balance and you get something really really repetitive.
Then if you give one race really powerful all ins and focus on balancing for winrates that actually kinda screws them over too. Stagnation is the real enemy not balance.
On February 02 2014 04:48 Morbidius wrote: Does anyone else feel Blizzard is extremely Arrogant in their changes? They almost never remove/undo a change despite community feedback and it feels like they deliberatly avoid adding changes proposed by the community.
But if they actually listened to the Pro community why would David Kim be needed? O' wait. Can you say job security? David Kim reminds me of one of those consultants companies hire to drive direction on ways to "improve" company efficiency. But what they are really doing is making things over complicated so they can bill-out never-ending change orders. I have to give it to David Kim, he certainly knows how to play company politics for releasing these whitewashed statements claiming "everything is fine". DK is polishing the china while the Titanic is sinking.
On February 02 2014 02:57 aZealot wrote: Anyone been playing the test map rather than theory jerk?
Why does it matter? Are you a good enough player that you can draw balance conclusions from your own play?
I'd say anyone below GM is better off theorycrafting.
Because otherwise we have a repetition of the same inane points over and over and over again? What does that achieve? And given that I play at a level way below GM, as do most people, I'd like to know what the play might look like at those levels. That makes sense to me. Of course, if you like to theory stroke go for gold.
Then get out of the thread? Whether the people here are playing the map or not doesnt change how well informed they are on actual balance, but they like to discuss it anyway.
Seems like your only agenda is to act all holier-than-thou and spew dumb demeaning bullshit like "theory stroke" while you are just as clueless as the rest.
On February 02 2014 02:57 aZealot wrote: Anyone been playing the test map rather than theory jerk?
Why does it matter? Are you a good enough player that you can draw balance conclusions from your own play?
I'd say anyone below GM is better off theorycrafting.
Because otherwise we have a repetition of the same inane points over and over and over again? What does that achieve? And given that I play at a level way below GM, as do most people, I'd like to know what the play might look like at those levels. That makes sense to me. Of course, if you like to theory stroke go for gold.
Then get out of the thread? Whether the people here are playing the map or not doesnt change how well informed they are on actual balance, but they like to discuss it anyway.
Seems like your only agenda is to act all holier-than-thou and spew dumb bullshit like "theory stroke" as if you knew any better.
No, I don't. But, I'm honest about it. I'll leave you to your "stroking" though. Clean up after you're done.
On February 02 2014 02:57 aZealot wrote: Anyone been playing the test map rather than theory jerk?
Why does it matter? Are you a good enough player that you can draw balance conclusions from your own play?
I'd say anyone below GM is better off theorycrafting.
Because otherwise we have a repetition of the same inane points over and over and over again? What does that achieve? And given that I play at a level way below GM, as do most people, I'd like to know what the play might look like at those levels. That makes sense to me. Of course, if you like to theory stroke go for gold.
Then get out of the thread? Whether the people here are playing the map or not doesnt change how well informed they are on actual balance, but they like to discuss it anyway.
Seems like your only agenda is to act all holier-than-thou and spew dumb bullshit like "theory stroke" as if you knew any better.
No, I don't. But, I'm honest about it. I'll leave you to your "stroking" though. Clean up after you're done.
On February 02 2014 02:57 aZealot wrote: Anyone been playing the test map rather than theory jerk?
Based on no variations of the map ever being popular or open on Custom Games; I think nobody will be testing it.
I think it's at the point where Blizzard should threaten to implement it anyway unless people (pros included) give actual feedback. Or they should maybe host an invitational with the changes up and offer a prize pool.
As a terran I really don't have any reason to test the map (in my opinion that is) because:
My mid-late game when I would have ghosts in my army anyways is not "really" being affected to much by the change. It's nice but I am not usually at a point where "ugh I wish I had more ghost energy at this point" because I will have the energy upgrade already and using them. This "could" help with pushing and them having spammed templars already but honestly it just...it doesn't address the issues I'm having in the matchup.
The 10s reduction on photon overcharge just...it's not really that big of a deal to me. I come in and I want to catch them without important tech units like collosus/templar because they used their resources to be aggressive on me (blink all in, dt, immortal push,oracle harass or w/e else) and deal damage. But that's still 50s of basically completely safe timing to get out army units or tech to stop the push completely.
The MSC change on time warp is good because it means they need to be a bit more careful with time warps instead of just using, but honestly all they need is one time warp and the game is over. It doesn't address the issue of "well you lost because their attack is ridiculously strong and the addition of time warp just makes it that much harder".
For TvP at least, these changes really just don't do anything to help with the core issue of terran being insanely terrified of dieing to any number of standard openers and being unable to punish a protoss after defending because of photon overcharge or rushing tech. This is almost exactly like the queen change, hellions were insanely good vs zerg and prevented any sort of opener outside of hardcore defense which set the zerg behind. So blizzard made queens outrange hellions and they shut down that sort of harassment almost completely in exchange for a more balanced matchup where zerg has a multitude of openers in both defensive and aggressive.
TL:DR: These changes really don't help with any issues that terran is facing in early-game TvP. So I don't really need to test them IMO.
I think it is unanimously agreed upon these are not the changes we need. There's a "we'll take whatever we van get" attitude, but nobody seems genuinly pleased. All changed misd the mark
On February 02 2014 04:48 Morbidius wrote: Does anyone else feel Blizzard is extremely Arrogant in their changes? They almost never remove/undo a change despite community feedback and it feels like they deliberatly avoid adding changes proposed by the community.
But if they actually listened to the Pro community why would David Kim be needed? O' wait. Can you say job security? David Kim reminds me of one of those consultants companies hire to drive direction on ways to "improve" company efficiency. But what they are really doing is making things over complicated so they can bill-out never-ending change orders. I have to give it to David Kim, he certainly knows how to play company politics for releasing these whitewashed statements claiming "everything is fine". DK is polishing the china while the Titanic is sinking.
If they listened to the pro community, there would still need to be a liason between the company and the players, someone who could take the subjective opinion of the pro community and turn it into improvements to the game focused around what people are complaining about. David Kim should be that person, but I honestly wonder what he or anyone else on the balance team even does.
I never hear positive feedback from pros about Blizzard's outreach to them on issues with the game, and when balance maps are released (which no one will play) that implement changes that don't even affect the issues that they say they want to fix, and when has DK gone onto community shows and doesn't even answer the hard questions or dodges, I think the best way to describe it really is that he is polishing the china while the Titanic is sinking.
NOBODY asked for more ghost energy when the only viable way to play TvP is bio anyway and a lot of Terran players would enjoy having a unit composition that didnt require medivacs to be effective. NOBODY asked for a hydra buff to make PvZ/ZvP less boring to watch when it is a matchup dominated by hard counter units that allow for little to no back and forth with the endgame being a turtlefest with a unit that should have never entered the design process (swarm hosts). David Kim what the fuck are you thinking here man?
On February 02 2014 02:43 SiroKO wrote: Blizzard have genious developpers and artists, but their balance teams are among the worse you could think of.
They're actually pretty good at balance, it's good game design they don't get.
The only balance we've seen so far is the one in the bigger picture. Each race dominates hard for a certain time period.
That's not true, though. Winrate-wise, the game has been very balanced on a few occasions, the latest of which was only a few months ago, before the latest patch.
Not that people on TL were any happier for it; people actually complained that the game was TOO balanced for a while, as weird as it seems.
Even now, the game isn't by any means in a terrible state balance wise. Early game TvP is poorly designed, and lategame PvZ is becoming a problem as well. Otherwise, it's pretty ok.
For TvP at least, these changes really just don't do anything to help with the core issue of terran being insanely terrified of dieing to any number of standard openers and being unable to punish a protoss after defending because of photon overcharge or rushing tech. This is almost exactly like the queen change, hellions were insanely good vs zerg and prevented any sort of opener outside of hardcore defense which set the zerg behind. So blizzard made queens outrange hellions and they shut down that sort of harassment almost completely in exchange for a more balanced matchup where zerg has a multitude of openers in both defensive and aggressive.
This is really my opinion about the matchup too. As long as protoss will have that many early good agressive/all in options, and good harassing options, plus the MSC for defense, I don't see how the matchup will be balanced in tournament. Smart protosses will abuse that as MC did against jjakji.
On February 02 2014 05:28 SC2Toastie wrote: I think it is unanimously agreed upon these are not the changes we need. There's a "we'll take whatever we van get" attitude, but nobody seems genuinly pleased. All changed misd the mark
I think the MsC nerfs are spot on, to be honest. They're not quite enough, but they're definitely not missing the mark, IMO.
It's funny that you start your post with claiming that shit was flung at someone yet then you yourself resort to condescending or plain insulting language.
The problem with avilo's quite conservative proposals is, that in combination they are not conservative proposals anymore. It is a onesided approach to the issue that results in all problems for Terran solved while Toss would be where they were in the era of the infamous 1/1/1 with the added benefit of banshee buffs. Back then, the complains of Tosses were similar to those of Terrans today: lack of scouting info, variety of Terran harass options and macro follow ups as well a lack of harass options. Also, horribly strong Terran all ins (ie 1/1/1 or marine hellion drops)
Just some quick theorycrafting how avilo's changes would affect Tosses options: -Going DTs? Well with old cost and no engibay-turrets? Reduced to an all in that needs to do significant damage (which it should not do anymore). -Oracles? - slow oracles with turrets available on the fly basically make it the same as going DTs. on the other hand: -Tanks sieging your natural and cloaked banshees attacking your mineral line will be painfull without 14 vision range msc especially when you consider that tanks then would do bonus damage versus shields. This would be even stronger than in wol since tanks don't need siege mode research and cloak is considerably cheaper than it was back then.
All in all, the game would be back at super passive protoss turtle play with no aggressive options apart from heavy gateway all ins (only them being a lot weaker with widow mines, free siege mode and stuff)
I may reiterate that I don't find any one of those changes unreasonable in itself but they for sure add up and make mech play a round thing against Toss, while leaving Toss in a situation that reminds me very much of WoL and I don't want to think about the implications those change would have for PvZ.
You seem to have missed the point where I said that, Protoss is already extremely safe against terran aggression while being able to put on a load of pressure themselves or even kill, one of those has to be addressed. Its either toss defensive power needs to be toned down, to the point where terran can put on enough aggression to force the toss to potentially spend more gas on being safe (thus slowing their tech and reducing their greed), or the toss pressures need to be severely nerfed.
In the context of Toss still keeping their MSC defensive powers mostly intact (which is what this balance patch proposes), then having all the toss offensive options nerfed is a fair and justified. If you want toss to keep all its offensive toys then propose a nerf to the MSC defensive abilities, you can't have both extreme safety early game and extreme offensive power with no risk reward involved, that's not how an RTS is supposed to work.
I find it amusing you mention banshees, they are hard countered by almost anything in the protoss arsenal. If toss goes SG for quick oracle then they will be able to also make 1 phoenix to shut down the aggression. If they opened Robo they can get an obs and stalkers to chase it away.
Now, if siege tanks are sieging your nat, then you somehow lost your MSC early or threw down all your time warps willy nilly, which equates to you making a serious mistake and not having any Photon Overcharge, and if that results in you getting your nat nexus sieged then you fucked up royally and deserve to lose or got outplayed and still deserve to lose.
Even with Avilo's proposed changes the 1/1/1 is still trash, a simple move out with basic GW units and MSC just kills it, time warps prevent marines from kiting back and allow zealots to close the gap on marines and tanks. And even if the terran gets close to the nat a simple PO will keep the tanks out of range long enough to get Colossus. If you opened with SG its even more one sided because oracles can provide vision via revelation, can be used as as fighting units in conjuncture with GW units, way earlier I should add, leading to the quick destruction of the push, you can also add Phoenix in to kill banshees, much more effective then stalkers.
There is also no way a Terran player meching will push at you in the early game. A tank based army is very gas expensive, if he invested into that for a early push he is sacrificing infrastructure or upgrades, or both, and you gain a lead there, + he is sacrificing safety since he might not leave anything behind, and the mech army is still extremely fragile early game. So if he pushes with a tank based mech army at you early game and you didn't see it in time and crush it, then you, again made a very grave mistake and still deserve to lose.
And if its tanks sieging your nat late game, then the game is over anyway and you are just delaying the inevitable.
The reason I am using such an aggressive and condescending tone is because a lot of posters here have earned it, throwing around speculation with nearly no analysis behind it, they don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly.
I have not missed your point, I am just talking about avilo's proposals that you defended with regard to actually balancing and fixing the game. I am not proposing to keep the game as it is. I even agree that you have to somehow adjust the protoss aggressive and defensive options. However, taking away all the aggressive options completely can't be the solution. It might be fair if you want one side to be super passive and one having all the options but then we would just invert the roles in TvP instead of fixing the MU.
Also, you mentioning how amazing stargate vs 1/1/1 or banshees in general is. However, with avilo's changes going through, toss would not open stargate anymore since it would be almost useless against bio play.
And the power of the Msc and nexus cannon against tank based attacks is not that the nexus shoots but rather that the msc provides vision that is greater than the attack range of the tank.only that way you can actually protect the nexus from being shot at. This obviously is only a early/early-mid game problem, yet this is the stage that needs to be addressed in current tvp.
Finally, I am rather astonished about what you say about tank pushes. with the proposed changes,toss would be forced to play very passive to be safe while Terran now gets free siege, cheaper cloak and a cheaper armory while being able to build emergency turrents without the need for an engibay. Thus Terran mech pushes would hit harder and/or earlier with a lot less draw backs.
What? The power of the msc vs 1/1/1 tank pushes is the vision not Overcharge?
I'm sorry, but with less vision it can accomplish exactly the same, PO is 13 range, MSC vision is 11, Tanks 13, Vikings 9, Marines 5. You can still provide vision ezpz no risk exactly like vikings in tvt do. Msc vision reduce changes NOTHING in Tank vs PO Ne us.
Msc vision is 14 atm but even with 11 it would be alright, however, it was suggested to eliminate its vision or reduce it to a point it can't grant vision for stalkers to shoot up ramps (that would be about 3 range). With those changes PO would be useless against tanks
I think you misinterpret that suggestion people do. Stalkers shooting high ground or blinking, no problem. That's fine. BUT the huge vision range makes the blink 100% safe because you have perfect information AND the MSC is nigh undeniable.
I think 11vision range would be quite reasonable, yet wouldn't touch blinkallins too much. (though it would make early game MsC scouting for Protoss a little harder).
Then what's the point of the change? Why should there be an entire patch to fix a minor consistency issue instead of just waiting until lotv? I'd rather have Blizzard leave the game alone instead of constantly micromanaging it.
People should distrust serendipity. The msc vision range fix won't magically solve the game.
Indeed, but it's too late now. You cannot leave the game alone anymore or we are going to watch PvP finals in 75% of the tournaments until LotV.
Plus we're not even a year into HotS yet. Could you imagine if Blizz left P untouched for another year or more. Spectators would leave HotS faster than they did WoL when zerg dominated every tournament.
And the meta-game feels more stagnant than ever before right now from my personal perspective. In WoL we had balance patches that really shook up the meta-game quite frequently.
Besides proleague, most of the games have felt lackluster for me this year.
On February 02 2014 05:28 SC2Toastie wrote: I think it is unanimously agreed upon these are not the changes we need. There's a "we'll take whatever we van get" attitude, but nobody seems genuinly pleased. All changed misd the mark
I think the MsC nerfs are spot on, to be honest. They're not quite enough, but they're definitely not missing the mark, IMO.
They are. Overcharge only affects pvp, Terrans timing is just as worthless after 50s as it is after 60s. Time Warp should never even have been in the game at first, and 100 mana still allows for 2 at a time.
Meanwhile: NO change to all ins, and the Ghost buff barely affects mech and really only changes that the 3 ghost scv all in hits -seconds- earlier (because ghost moving accross the map usually regenerated up to about 75 mana).
Hydra change is weird and unexplained, tempest buff has been explained but is a bandaid and not a fix (SH is the problem).
So yes, they all attempt to improve the game, but they all miss 'the problems' we currently have.
On February 02 2014 00:33 Destructicon wrote: [quote]
You seem to have missed the point where I said that, Protoss is already extremely safe against terran aggression while being able to put on a load of pressure themselves or even kill, one of those has to be addressed. Its either toss defensive power needs to be toned down, to the point where terran can put on enough aggression to force the toss to potentially spend more gas on being safe (thus slowing their tech and reducing their greed), or the toss pressures need to be severely nerfed.
In the context of Toss still keeping their MSC defensive powers mostly intact (which is what this balance patch proposes), then having all the toss offensive options nerfed is a fair and justified. If you want toss to keep all its offensive toys then propose a nerf to the MSC defensive abilities, you can't have both extreme safety early game and extreme offensive power with no risk reward involved, that's not how an RTS is supposed to work.
I find it amusing you mention banshees, they are hard countered by almost anything in the protoss arsenal. If toss goes SG for quick oracle then they will be able to also make 1 phoenix to shut down the aggression. If they opened Robo they can get an obs and stalkers to chase it away.
Now, if siege tanks are sieging your nat, then you somehow lost your MSC early or threw down all your time warps willy nilly, which equates to you making a serious mistake and not having any Photon Overcharge, and if that results in you getting your nat nexus sieged then you fucked up royally and deserve to lose or got outplayed and still deserve to lose.
Even with Avilo's proposed changes the 1/1/1 is still trash, a simple move out with basic GW units and MSC just kills it, time warps prevent marines from kiting back and allow zealots to close the gap on marines and tanks. And even if the terran gets close to the nat a simple PO will keep the tanks out of range long enough to get Colossus. If you opened with SG its even more one sided because oracles can provide vision via revelation, can be used as as fighting units in conjuncture with GW units, way earlier I should add, leading to the quick destruction of the push, you can also add Phoenix in to kill banshees, much more effective then stalkers.
There is also no way a Terran player meching will push at you in the early game. A tank based army is very gas expensive, if he invested into that for a early push he is sacrificing infrastructure or upgrades, or both, and you gain a lead there, + he is sacrificing safety since he might not leave anything behind, and the mech army is still extremely fragile early game. So if he pushes with a tank based mech army at you early game and you didn't see it in time and crush it, then you, again made a very grave mistake and still deserve to lose.
And if its tanks sieging your nat late game, then the game is over anyway and you are just delaying the inevitable.
The reason I am using such an aggressive and condescending tone is because a lot of posters here have earned it, throwing around speculation with nearly no analysis behind it, they don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly.
I have not missed your point, I am just talking about avilo's proposals that you defended with regard to actually balancing and fixing the game. I am not proposing to keep the game as it is. I even agree that you have to somehow adjust the protoss aggressive and defensive options. However, taking away all the aggressive options completely can't be the solution. It might be fair if you want one side to be super passive and one having all the options but then we would just invert the roles in TvP instead of fixing the MU.
Also, you mentioning how amazing stargate vs 1/1/1 or banshees in general is. However, with avilo's changes going through, toss would not open stargate anymore since it would be almost useless against bio play.
And the power of the Msc and nexus cannon against tank based attacks is not that the nexus shoots but rather that the msc provides vision that is greater than the attack range of the tank.only that way you can actually protect the nexus from being shot at. This obviously is only a early/early-mid game problem, yet this is the stage that needs to be addressed in current tvp.
Finally, I am rather astonished about what you say about tank pushes. with the proposed changes,toss would be forced to play very passive to be safe while Terran now gets free siege, cheaper cloak and a cheaper armory while being able to build emergency turrents without the need for an engibay. Thus Terran mech pushes would hit harder and/or earlier with a lot less draw backs.
What? The power of the msc vs 1/1/1 tank pushes is the vision not Overcharge?
I'm sorry, but with less vision it can accomplish exactly the same, PO is 13 range, MSC vision is 11, Tanks 13, Vikings 9, Marines 5. You can still provide vision ezpz no risk exactly like vikings in tvt do. Msc vision reduce changes NOTHING in Tank vs PO Ne us.
Msc vision is 14 atm but even with 11 it would be alright, however, it was suggested to eliminate its vision or reduce it to a point it can't grant vision for stalkers to shoot up ramps (that would be about 3 range). With those changes PO would be useless against tanks
I think you misinterpret that suggestion people do. Stalkers shooting high ground or blinking, no problem. That's fine. BUT the huge vision range makes the blink 100% safe because you have perfect information AND the MSC is nigh undeniable.
I think 11vision range would be quite reasonable, yet wouldn't touch blinkallins too much. (though it would make early game MsC scouting for Protoss a little harder).
Then what's the point of the change? Why should there be an entire patch to fix a minor consistency issue instead of just waiting until lotv? I'd rather have Blizzard leave the game alone instead of constantly micromanaging it.
People should distrust serendipity. The msc vision range fix won't magically solve the game.
Indeed, but it's too late now. You cannot leave the game alone anymore or we are going to watch PvP finals in 75% of the tournaments until LotV.
Plus we're not even a year into HotS yet. Could you imagine if Blizz left P untouched for another year or more. Spectators would leave HotS faster than they did WoL when zerg dominated every tournament.
And the meta-game feels more stagnant than ever before right now from my personal perspective. In WoL we had balance patches that really shook up the meta-game quite frequently.
Besides proleague, most of the games have felt lackluster for me this year.
Mech viability could do that, so could a toss redesign, but for some reason blizzard refuses to make it happen. They wasted a huge opportunity for experimentation in the off season (that was THE opportunity to mess balance up a bit in favor of quality of game, because the amount of tournaments was low)...
Its often the case that very small adjustments to numbers can change the balance and meta. Taking 10 seconds off PO is not one of those cases. 10 seconds will not do anything and it just feels like a lazy- "well look, atleast we are doing something"- fix.
On February 02 2014 07:30 Fjodorov wrote: Its often the case that very small adjustments to numbers can change the balance and meta. Taking 10 seconds off PO is not one of those cases. 10 seconds will not do anything and it just feels like a lazy- "well look, atleast we are doing something"- fix.
Well it'll make some PvPs 10 seconds shorter. But I dont see any other impact.
How about lowering ghost mineral cost a bit, and also lowering their HP to compensate? I always thought it was strange that ghosts are used to tank zealot hits and that they were so much more expensive than they were in BW.
On February 02 2014 07:48 Fission wrote: Blizzard I would like more than 1 or 2 stable TvP openings please.
There's 1? What opening is that? I get crushed every TvP game.
I'm serious. See my post in the Terran Help Me Thread.
12 Rax, 12 Gas, 12 scout, pull out of gas on 100, build a reaper and then a reactor, get a CC on the high ground, build a 2nd rax, pump marines non stop, 4:30 Engi bay for safety and early upgrades. After you've started your 2nd Rax, CC, bunker at the nat (asuming it was safe to take it), put back into gas. Rally marines to your mineral line just in case. Get 2nd gas at around 5:00, when you have gas start a TL on your rax and then stim, 6:30 factory, 7:30 SP, continue upgrading, producing marines and SCVs, 7:40 to 8:00 3rd gas.
That's what I've seen most of the pros use, with some variations, like not all get the early upgrades or even the early engi, that is Maru's variation, I've also seen ForGG's variation with Reactor first into double reaper.
You also have to adapt your build to a blink all-in, if you see it coming then get a 2nd bunker at nat, 1 or 2 bunkers in your main, a 3rd rax with TL on it, conc shells, double marauder production. You'll probably have to delay your factory just to survive this.
Yeah, basically that's it though, going 14 CC or really early 3rd is a high risk gamble with marginal rewards.
I like how everyone freaks shit about a test--A TEST. It's a test, you guys. Play the fucker before shooting your mouth off about it, and then even if it sucks, stop crying about a test.
On February 02 2014 08:58 Wyrd wrote: I like how everyone freaks shit about a test--A TEST. It's a test, you guys. Play the fucker before shooting your mouth off about it, and then even if it sucks, stop crying about a test.
Increased oracle speed was also just a test at one point....
On February 02 2014 08:58 Wyrd wrote: I like how everyone freaks shit about a test--A TEST. It's a test, you guys. Play the fucker before shooting your mouth off about it, and then even if it sucks, stop crying about a test.
Queen range was just a test they said... Oracle speed? Just a test! I'm weary of tests...
On February 02 2014 08:58 Wyrd wrote: I like how everyone freaks shit about a test--A TEST. It's a test, you guys. Play the fucker before shooting your mouth off about it, and then even if it sucks, stop crying about a test.
The SC2 balance team has a history of trying out ideas that hurt the game more than helping it and then implementing said ideas, e.g., queen and oracle buff.
This is pretty dissapointing. Sure we can say overall this is a Protoss nerf and a Terran buff but in reality this misses the target in terms of game design by quite a bit.
Blizzard: it's okay to be wrong, but you need to accept your mistakes. Stop being so unwilling to revert changes. This game is due for a massive overhaul
On February 02 2014 08:58 Wyrd wrote: I like how everyone freaks shit about a test--A TEST. It's a test, you guys. Play the fucker before shooting your mouth off about it, and then even if it sucks, stop crying about a test.
Because Blizzard has a history of going throughout with 80% of their initial changes regardless of feedback. Or they tweak things last minute and have no time to test. This test map should have been released a month ago but DK watched 1 week of PL and held it off because of pro feedback... I am really interested to know which pro he had feedback from.
I also find it strange that they comment on balance in terms of units only and not maps. The maps are a HUGE problem right now.
On February 02 2014 08:58 Wyrd wrote: I like how everyone freaks shit about a test--A TEST. It's a test, you guys. Play the fucker before shooting your mouth off about it, and then even if it sucks, stop crying about a test.
Its a misguided test that doesnt fix the issues and just shows how out of touch Blizzard is.
The problem is that this patch will probably go live in a month or so, once they remove the buff the hydras first. Then we will have another 3-4 months of PvP everywhere until we can look forward to the next balance map that might actually address some of the real issues.
So a balanced game in 6 months maybe? I feel like I'm being generous even with that.
On February 02 2014 08:58 Wyrd wrote: I like how everyone freaks shit about a test--A TEST. It's a test, you guys. Play the fucker before shooting your mouth off about it, and then even if it sucks, stop crying about a test.
So a balanced game in 6 months maybe? I feel like I'm being generous even with that.
But the game is balanced! Once you remove skill level!
MSC changes completely missing the mark. Personally I would like to see Time Warp keep its energy cost, but increase PO energy cost to 125. That way, you cannot cast 2 POs at the same time with a full energy MSC. You CAN, however, cast one PO and a Time Warp. Also, there's now a guaranteed 30 second(ish) break between two POs. This should give the Terran especially some more early game options. This might hurt PvP quite a bit, but I think buffing the MSC's starting energy to 75 could deal with this. Not sure about this tho. This way your first PO's timing doesn't change at all, but the 2nd one's significantly delayed. Also, nerfing MSC's vision is also long overdue.
On February 02 2014 07:48 Fission wrote: Blizzard I would like more than 1 or 2 stable TvP openings please.
There's 1? What opening is that? I get crushed every TvP game.
I'm serious. See my post in the Terran Help Me Thread.
Are you talking about the game where you attacked and lost your whole army 10 seconds before combat shield was done, and flew all your vikings over their army and never replaced them? Or were you talking about the game where the first Oracle came in at 6:30, and despite being at 500 minerals when it happened, you didn't throw down your Engineering Bay until 8:00, and didn't have a Turret in your main until 10:10?
Bad decision making is a simple thing to fix, but fuck that, lets nerf Protoss into the ground and worry about improving afterwards.
On February 02 2014 07:48 Fission wrote: Blizzard I would like more than 1 or 2 stable TvP openings please.
There's 1? What opening is that? I get crushed every TvP game.
I'm serious. See my post in the Terran Help Me Thread.
Are you talking about the game where you attacked and lost your whole army 10 seconds before combat shield was done, and flew all your vikings over their army and never replaced them? Or were you talking about the game where the first Oracle came in at 6:30, and despite being at 500 minerals when it happened, you didn't throw down your Engineering Bay until 8:00, and didn't have a Turret in your main until 10:10?
Bad decision making is a simple thing to fix, but fuck that, lets nerf Protoss into the ground and worry about improving afterwards.
You're missing the forest for trees. The whole idea of balance is that the onus on decision-making should be equal. Both sides should be at equal risk in their decisions.
If we count the number of ways Terrans can lose a game, and compare that to the number of ways a Protoss can lose a game; maybe we can get some semblance of where the balance should be.
Can't wait to try some hydra busts in ZvP. It's about time Protoss actually worry about a midgame zerg timing that isn't some variant of 12 minute max roach.
On February 02 2014 07:48 Fission wrote: Blizzard I would like more than 1 or 2 stable TvP openings please.
There's 1? What opening is that? I get crushed every TvP game.
I'm serious. See my post in the Terran Help Me Thread.
Are you talking about the game where you attacked and lost your whole army 10 seconds before combat shield was done, and flew all your vikings over their army and never replaced them? Or were you talking about the game where the first Oracle came in at 6:30, and despite being at 500 minerals when it happened, you didn't throw down your Engineering Bay until 8:00, and didn't have a Turret in your main until 10:10?
Bad decision making is a simple thing to fix, but fuck that, lets nerf Protoss into the ground and worry about improving afterwards.
You're missing the forest for trees. The whole idea of balance is that the onus on decision-making should be equal. Both sides should be at equal risk in their decisions.
If we count the number of ways Terrans can lose a game, and compare that to the number of ways a Protoss can lose a game; maybe we can get some semblance of where the balance should be.
I'm not missing the forest for the trees, I am addressing his games, not the overall scope of TvP. I am not advocating that I think Protoss doesn't need a nerf, I'm a Protoss player and I completely agree something needs to be done to help Terran. I'm just getting sick of this guys balance whining when all it really is is a lack of recognizing glaring flaws in his play. I am sure there are times he loses because what he had to do was harder than the Protoss due to balance. I don't think that is true in either of these games I addressed.
On January 31 2014 11:14 geokilla wrote: Having a limited amount of army and resources, there's no way I could have handled this any better. Right?
With a mindset like that, it probably wouldn't even matter to him if Terran were the favored race in the matchup.
On February 02 2014 07:48 Fission wrote: Blizzard I would like more than 1 or 2 stable TvP openings please.
There's 1? What opening is that? I get crushed every TvP game.
I'm serious. See my post in the Terran Help Me Thread.
Are you talking about the game where you attacked and lost your whole army 10 seconds before combat shield was done, and flew all your vikings over their army and never replaced them? Or were you talking about the game where the first Oracle came in at 6:30, and despite being at 500 minerals when it happened, you didn't throw down your Engineering Bay until 8:00, and didn't have a Turret in your main until 10:10?
Bad decision making is a simple thing to fix, but fuck that, lets nerf Protoss into the ground and worry about improving afterwards.
You're missing the forest for trees. The whole idea of balance is that the onus on decision-making should be equal. Both sides should be at equal risk in their decisions.
If we count the number of ways Terrans can lose a game, and compare that to the number of ways a Protoss can lose a game; maybe we can get some semblance of where the balance should be.
I'm not missing the forest for the trees, I am addressing his games, not the overall scope of TvP. I am not advocating that I think Protoss doesn't need a nerf, I'm a Protoss player and I completely agree something needs to be done to help Terran. I'm just getting sick of this guys balance whining when all it really is is a lack of recognizing glaring flaws in his play. I am sure there are times he loses because what he had to do was harder than the Protoss due to balance. I don't think that is true in either of these games I addressed.
On January 31 2014 11:14 geokilla wrote: Having a limited amount of army and resources, there's no way I could have handled this any better. Right?
With a mindset like that, it probably wouldn't even matter to him if Terran were the favored race in the matchup.
People can make comments on balance despite what their games look like. I know, it's a novel concept. Maybe his complaints are based on his poor play and maybe not valid. But we've seen this at the pro level for awhile now and that's why people are complaining.
On February 02 2014 07:48 Fission wrote: Blizzard I would like more than 1 or 2 stable TvP openings please.
There's 1? What opening is that? I get crushed every TvP game.
I'm serious. See my post in the Terran Help Me Thread.
Are you talking about the game where you attacked and lost your whole army 10 seconds before combat shield was done, and flew all your vikings over their army and never replaced them? Or were you talking about the game where the first Oracle came in at 6:30, and despite being at 500 minerals when it happened, you didn't throw down your Engineering Bay until 8:00, and didn't have a Turret in your main until 10:10?
Bad decision making is a simple thing to fix, but fuck that, lets nerf Protoss into the ground and worry about improving afterwards.
You're missing the forest for trees. The whole idea of balance is that the onus on decision-making should be equal. Both sides should be at equal risk in their decisions.
If we count the number of ways Terrans can lose a game, and compare that to the number of ways a Protoss can lose a game; maybe we can get some semblance of where the balance should be.
I'm not missing the forest for the trees, I am addressing his games, not the overall scope of TvP. I am not advocating that I think Protoss doesn't need a nerf, I'm a Protoss player and I completely agree something needs to be done to help Terran. I'm just getting sick of this guys balance whining when all it really is is a lack of recognizing glaring flaws in his play. I am sure there are times he loses because what he had to do was harder than the Protoss due to balance. I don't think that is true in either of these games I addressed.
On January 31 2014 11:14 geokilla wrote: Having a limited amount of army and resources, there's no way I could have handled this any better. Right?
With a mindset like that, it probably wouldn't even matter to him if Terran were the favored race in the matchup.
People can make comments on balance despite what their games look like. I know, it's a novel concept. Maybe his complaints are based on his poor play and maybe not valid. But we've seen this at the pro level for awhile now and that's why people are complaining.
Finally got in a couple of games on the test map. Didn't play against good opponents unfortunately, but it did mean that I could try Tempests. I didn't rush them, though; opened SG into 2 base then Beacon and a 3rd. Boy, these things just smash buildings. It was actually fucking cool! Previously, I was opposed to this aspect of the patch (heh, actually most if not all of the patch!) but I can see this tweak opening up a whole different area of the late game in Starcraft.
I don't know if rushing Tempests is really viable against a competent opponent because your ground army will be small and Tempests do diddly squat to anything not massive air or a building. It probably would be abusable on maps with lots of dead air but that remains to be seen. Basically, I like this change but it could use more testing and some tweaks.
Some thoughts are adjusting the damage numbers and making it an upgrade at Beacon (so that it truly is a late game tool for Protoss). Another is for the Tempest design to change slightly when the ability is researched and active so that it is easier to scout and for opponents to be aware of what may be coming (rather like Roaches when they have tunneling claws).
Anyway, originally I did not like this Tempest change because I thought it would upset all P match-ups. But, I am not sure anymore. With some tweaks, I think it could be an exciting change to Protoss and open up a lot of options in late game SC.
On February 02 2014 15:19 aZealot wrote: Finally, got in a couple of games on the test map. Didn't play against good opponents unfortunately, but it did mean that I could try Tempests. I didn't rush them, though; opened SG into 2 base then Beacon and a 3rd. Boy, these things just smash buildings. It was actually fucking cool! Previously, I was opposed to this aspect of the patch (heh, actually most if not all of the patch!) but I can see this tweak opening up a whole different area of the late game in Starcraft.
I don't know if rushing Tempests is really viable against a competent opponent because your ground army will be small and Tempests do diddly squat to anything not massive air or a building. It probably would be abusable on maps with lots of dead air but that remains to be seen. Basically, I like this change but it could use more testing and some tweaks. Some thoughts are adjusting the damage numbers and making it an upgrade at Beacon (so that it truly is a late game tool for Protoss).
Another is for the Tempest design to change slightly when the ability is researched and active so that it is easier to scout and for opponents to be aware of what may be coming (rather like Roaches when they have tunneling claws).
Anyway, originally I did not like this Tempest change because I thought it would upset all P match-ups. But, I am not sure anymore. With some tweaks, I think it could be an exciting change to Protoss and open up a lot of options in late game SC.
The problem is that you can have Tempests camping out from afar like Polar Night and just pick off key structures. Having Tempest pretty much means having Skytoss, and having Skytoss means you have a pretty much unbeatable army when it gets to that late in the game. All Zerg has are Fungals, and Fungals can't reach Tempests that are pew pewing far away. Corruptors and Mutalisks, well they gotta respect the Void Rays and Phoenix which pretty much hard counter them. Same goes for Terran and its air units.
Mass Hydra and Ghost Bio timings will insure that Protoss will never get Stargate let alone the Fleet Beacon to make Tempests. They should make Hydras cheaper, really seal the deal here.
On February 02 2014 15:19 aZealot wrote: Finally, got in a couple of games on the test map. Didn't play against good opponents unfortunately, but it did mean that I could try Tempests. I didn't rush them, though; opened SG into 2 base then Beacon and a 3rd. Boy, these things just smash buildings. It was actually fucking cool! Previously, I was opposed to this aspect of the patch (heh, actually most if not all of the patch!) but I can see this tweak opening up a whole different area of the late game in Starcraft.
I don't know if rushing Tempests is really viable against a competent opponent because your ground army will be small and Tempests do diddly squat to anything not massive air or a building. It probably would be abusable on maps with lots of dead air but that remains to be seen. Basically, I like this change but it could use more testing and some tweaks. Some thoughts are adjusting the damage numbers and making it an upgrade at Beacon (so that it truly is a late game tool for Protoss).
Another is for the Tempest design to change slightly when the ability is researched and active so that it is easier to scout and for opponents to be aware of what may be coming (rather like Roaches when they have tunneling claws).
Anyway, originally I did not like this Tempest change because I thought it would upset all P match-ups. But, I am not sure anymore. With some tweaks, I think it could be an exciting change to Protoss and open up a lot of options in late game SC.
The problem is that you can have Tempests camping out from afar like Polar Night and just pick off key structures. Having Tempest pretty much means having Skytoss, and having Skytoss means you have a pretty much unbeatable army when it gets to that late in the game. All Zerg has are Fungals, and Fungals can't reach Tempests that are pew pewing far away. Corruptors and Mutalisks, well they gotta respect the Void Rays and Phoenix which pretty much hard counter them. Same goes for Terran and its air units.
Well, that depends on the map. But, I don't see the problem in some maps favouring certain units or play styles (as long as the bias toward that unit or play style is not excessive). I think it makes for better games and for better players.
More to the point, you don't know any of that. Nor do I. Neither of us know enough of what the game will look like if the Tempest change goes through (I hope with the changes I have suggested - it may be OP otherwise). Especially if other patch changes go through. It will take figuring out from players as we go along. My point is that after playing a couple of games with it, I found it exciting. It could open up a new meta in late game Starcraft, and more positional and tactical play.
On February 02 2014 08:58 Wyrd wrote: I like how everyone freaks shit about a test--A TEST. It's a test, you guys. Play the fucker before shooting your mouth off about it, and then even if it sucks, stop crying about a test.
Queen range was just a test they said... Oracle speed? Just a test! I'm weary of tests...
And they're all great changes that were tested beforehand. Now, we'll get to see Hydras at 25 -- it'll be great for PvZ.
On February 02 2014 08:58 Wyrd wrote: I like how everyone freaks shit about a test--A TEST. It's a test, you guys. Play the fucker before shooting your mouth off about it, and then even if it sucks, stop crying about a test.
Queen range was just a test they said... Oracle speed? Just a test! I'm weary of tests...
i doubt the tempest change will do much. Its stupid to say protoss players will *just camp somewhere in the distance picking off key structures* . - tempests can do that now, but you dont see that happening at all. simply because they are slow, and still dont do a lot of damage (60 vs structures for a fleet beacon and 300^200 unit. IM pretty sure the same investment in voidrays will deal similar, if not more damage)
I would like to say the hydra change is stupid, but i actually think its a cool change, they will have to give protoss an option of dealing with hydra rushes at some point, but i dont think they are a problem in ZvT or ZvZ and actually help with the metagame of muta play, or mass bio.
I really enjoy how the msc has pushed the sentry away from a unit to make every game. Players have been asking for the sentry to be redisigned, blizzard (not listening to the players of course) accidentally removed it from the metagame by making protoss unattackable in the early game.
Thanks blizzard, you really know how to appease the casuals!
On February 02 2014 19:55 weikor wrote: i doubt the tempest change will do much. Its stupid to say protoss players will *just camp somewhere in the distance picking off key structures* . - tempests can do that now, but you dont see that happening at all. simply because they are slow, and still dont do a lot of damage (60 vs structures for a fleet beacon and 300^200 unit. IM pretty sure the same investment in voidrays will deal similar, if not more damage)
I would like to say the hydra change is stupid, but i actually think its a cool change, they will have to give protoss an option of dealing with hydra rushes at some point, but i dont think they are a problem in ZvT or ZvZ and actually help with the metagame of muta play, or mass bio.
I really enjoy how the msc has pushed the sentry away from a unit to make every game. Players have been asking for the sentry to be redisigned, blizzard (not listening to the players of course) accidentally removed it from the metagame by making protoss unattackable in the early game.
Thanks blizzard, you really know how to appease the casuals!
It's not about keystructures, but spore/spine crawlers. And Protoss are doing that right now, it's just not really efficient because the damage of Tempest vs structures is really bad.
There are games, also high level games, of semi tempest rushes against terran. This requires a short aerial distance, a good target in base, and lots of dead space near the target. Habitation station is perfect for it. As it stands now, I'd say it's cheese, and only works if they get a bit lucky. But it should be tested with this change.
On February 02 2014 20:38 Ghanburighan wrote: There are games, also high level games, of semi tempest rushes against terran. This requires a short aerial distance, a good target in base, and lots of dead space near the target. Habitation station is perfect for it. As it stands now, I'd say it's cheese, and only works if they get a bit lucky. But it should be tested with this change.
So, your comment on a change in a test map is that it has to be tested... ?
I just really want to see a pro game with the reduced hydra cost. I am certainly not good enough to utilize it, but like someone said it will allow zerg to do multi-prong harass with OL drop. That sounds freaking awesome to watch.
On February 02 2014 20:58 redviper wrote: I just really want to see a pro game with the reduced hydra cost. I am certainly not good enough to utilize it, but like someone said it will allow zerg to do multi-prong harass with OL drop. That sounds freaking awesome to watch.
On February 02 2014 20:58 redviper wrote: I just really want to see a pro game with the reduced hydra cost. I am certainly not good enough to utilize it, but like someone said it will allow zerg to do multi-prong harass with OL drop. That sounds freaking awesome to watch.
I dont think zerg can max out much faster and I dont know about harrash. But this makes making muta so much easiler vs P
On February 02 2014 20:58 redviper wrote: I just really want to see a pro game with the reduced hydra cost. I am certainly not good enough to utilize it, but like someone said it will allow zerg to do multi-prong harass with OL drop. That sounds freaking awesome to watch.
I dont think zerg can max out much faster and I dont know about harrash. But this makes making muta so much easiler vs P
Indeed. It will only make opening ling/hydra easier to go into more muta's later.
I wonder if we could organize something like, take two players of about equal skill level (by their own admission), and have them play 20 blink all-in scenarios on Yeonsu in this test map. I can be the protoss in this if you like, but I'm gold and my PvT is awful so I'm pretty sure that wouldn't prove much.
On February 02 2014 20:58 redviper wrote: I just really want to see a pro game with the reduced hydra cost. I am certainly not good enough to utilize it, but like someone said it will allow zerg to do multi-prong harass with OL drop. That sounds freaking awesome to watch.
I dont think zerg can max out much faster and I dont know about harrash. But this makes making muta so much easiler vs P
Indeed. It will only make opening ling/hydra easier to go into more muta's later.
Hydra maxes will come faster: you'll be able to hit a 200/200 timing around 12 minutes with pure hydralisk. That's just silly.
I play zerg and I think that the zerg will now be able to overpower the protoss with roach hydra because of this buff. But we will have to see, maybe we are blowing it out of proportion who knows..
EPT
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