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United States7483 Posts
On February 01 2014 17:09 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 16:53 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 16:48 SC2Toastie wrote:
Oracles at the top level disappear indeed. The reason is what you don''t seem to recognise:
Terrans have adapted their builds to hold oracles easilly. BUT that also means builds cannot be aggressive because you need marines at home. That also means you need to invest in defence infrastructure before you can even know whether you need it or not. The mere precence of the oracle forces adaptations -> just as the Tempest completely disables the Battle Cruiser from really working without mass raven support. Protoss builds have been changed to adapt to many things terrans can do as well. Old protoss builds like the 1 colossus, take a third, go straight to templar is completely dead. Protoss can't have map control when medivacs are coming out around the 10 minute mark, no matter how badly we want it. There are times when toss can't be aggressive, and there are times when terran can't be aggressive. If terran can be aggressive whenever it wants regardless of what build toss attempts, do you really think that would be reasonable or fair? The safest build that exists in PvT for Protoss is the Rain build, where he invests in a freaking cannon early on in his mineral lines in case of mine drops, even without knowing whether one is coming or not. If you play greedier than that, you can outright die to mines. Is it unfair that protoss has to account for detection early on in the game or else risk dying to mines? Cloak banshees disappeared because protoss is forced to open detection almost every game. Hero (CJ entus one) died in a proleague match a short while ago vs. Maru because he skipped detection and got killed by cloak banshees. So Protoss adapted to those threats and now opens robo every game, or oracle (which also detects). If nothing cloaked shows up, oh well, we make do with what we have. It's not simply terran who is forced to do certain things because of their opponent's options. You make it sound like protoss can do literally anything it wants at any time, that is absolutely not the case. Banshee did not disappear because of Protoss going for detection every game. They are gone because of the 13 ranged Planetary NExus,man. You are affraind of WM drops? How many PvTs end before 10 mins with Terran win? Oh, one game in the last two years? Really?Oracle not only detecs, but also can kill a mínimum of FOUR workers and escape without dying,whle able to detect home and kill the WM.The WM drop means the T is going 1-1-1 and this is only one of the two builds Terran can go vs P.Now lets see how many does P got??? Terran are able to be aggressive ONLY when Medivacs are out and if their banshee or WM drop does not do enough damage, they got miles behind because of the investment.Protoss can Oracle,DT w/o Warp Prism and blink and still can expand.The difference is that Protoss can be aggerssive from the minute 4 sending a Zealot,MScore Stalker poke while Terran cant even rsik to go up the ramp...
Banshees with cloak stopped showing up because protoss always has detection. Nexus cannon means nothing if you can't detect the cloaked banshee, and they even made cloak cheaper. It's purely the fact that protoss adapted to the threats and gets detection every game. We've seen from games like that CJ_Hero vs. Maru game where Maru flat out killed him with cloaked banshees that if you skip detection you die to it. The cannon has absolutely nothing to do with it. Oh, and a one base oracle build getting only 4 workers actually puts the protoss behind, so there goes that argument. Stuff protoss does costs money too bro, it's not free. It's all an investment. In ZvT, once speed finishes, zerg gets a nice long while to have map control, and there's pretty much nothing terran can do about it until medivacs are out. It's NORMAL for a race to have timings where they can't really be aggressive. This argument is silly.
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On February 01 2014 17:05 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 17:01 Dvriel wrote:On February 01 2014 16:44 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 16:38 Dvriel wrote:On February 01 2014 10:58 Musicus wrote:On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote:
I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S + Show Spoiler +That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change. Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while. On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first. Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning... Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink. This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO... Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about. I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2? I've tried all sorts of builds I want to work in this game, many of them don't work. I don't come in here whining about not being able to go only stargate units in PvT or only make units out of the robotics facility. I don't recall zergs complaining about not being able to reliably go ONLY zerglings in ZvP. Some things work, some don't. Just because it's your preferred playstyle does not mean it must be balanced against the entire enemy race. I don't get to go carriers, as much as I want that to be viable. I get that you like mech and want to play it, and that it's fun for you. However, it is not a balance issue that mech does not work vs. protoss. It is gripe you have about the way the race works yes, but complaining that it is unfair that mech doesn't work is like protoss complaining that mass carriers doesn't work. If you want mech to work vs. protoss with approximately the same strength as bio, either bio needs to be weakened a little, or protoss needs to be strengthened a little somewhere else. You cannot add options to one race without increasing its strength: the very option existing is a buff. Well, going only Stargate units in PvT is absolutely viable if the Terran plays mech. Opening with oracles,into voids or Phoenix with 2 base PO is posible. If the T goes BIO, you are dead, but this doesn mean you can compair going full Stargate,full Robo or Mass lings with going mech. MECH are Wm,Hellions,Hellbats,Tanks,Thors,Banshees,Ravens and even BCs or Medivacs(I use then to drop WM or HEllbats). Are you really gonna tell me all this units are the same as "mass lings"? Mech is a Style. You cant go mass carriers vs BIO Terran, but they shred everything if the Terran goes mech and allows you to mass them. Actually Protoss anti mech options are so many and so strong that its almost imposible to win and you only need to amove your Immortal/Archon/Collosi army into 15 presieged tanks. You call this "NORMAL"? The entire Protoss army for SC2 is designed to shut mech pretty hard: Charge to get quickly closer to siege lines.Blink doing the same.Collosi helping from behind,IMMORTALS shredding everything. Archons,Oracles,Void Rays...You need more? So what you're saying is, if the terran voluntarily lets me do it, I can do whatever I want? Thanks for the tautology. Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 17:02 Tresher wrote:On February 01 2014 16:44 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 16:38 Dvriel wrote:On February 01 2014 10:58 Musicus wrote:On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote:
I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S + Show Spoiler +That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change. Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while. On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first. Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning... Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink. This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO... Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about. I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2? I've tried all sorts of builds I want to work in this game, many of them don't work. I don't come in here whining about not being able to go only stargate units in PvT or only make units out of the robotics facility. I don't recall zergs complaining about not being able to reliably go ONLY zerglings in ZvP. Some things work, some don't. Just because it's your preferred playstyle does not mean it must be balanced against the entire enemy race. I don't get to go carriers, as much as I want that to be viable. I get that you like mech and want to play it, and that it's fun for you. However, it is not a balance issue that mech does not work vs. protoss. It is gripe you have about the way the race works yes, but complaining that it is unfair that mech doesn't work is like protoss complaining that mass carriers doesn't work. If you want mech to work vs. protoss with approximately the same strength as bio, either bio needs to be weakened a little, or protoss needs to be strengthened a little somewhere else. You cannot add options to one race without increasing its strength: the very option existing is a buff. Stopped reading at the bolded part. Cant believe people still dont get it that going Bio OR Mech is a unique thing to the Terran race just like Zerg can mass/swarm Units and Protoss has few but strong Units. Obviously never played BW. LoL. "Its Avilo"... Nice way to discuss,huh? Who are you man? Mvp or maybe Polt with a name for TL? Avilo at least try mech. He is not a balance whiner. He is the only man saying the real f.... true about SC2. None of the Progamers dare to even say what are they really thinking and you disrespect him so easily...We are talking about mech and you are saying "marines are dangerous and quick." COME ON, PLEASE, REALLY??? WTF? Can you show me a single VOD or BO when Terran is aggressive in early game TvP¿???? When was the last time Protoss Progamer lost PvT at 7:30 min mark???? WHEN?
Blink all in forcé "certain adaptations"??? Have you ever played Terran, please? Come on, try it man and let me see your face, with 4 bunkers in Deadalus or Heavy Rain, stim,shields,medivacs and+1 at 7 mins while the blink all in is at your ramp.3 mins later you go out and discover the Protoss got doublé forge,robo,Nexus mining and fully saturated in the natural, you try to drop WHILE attacking the natural, the PO is casted on both nexi and you need to go home, trying to expand to catch the Protoss finishig his Storm and 3-3 at 14 min.After all this I wanna see you winning without pulling SCVs OR going MECH hehe. Please,THINK BEFORE YOU WRITE I fully agree here. Sad thing is when you posted that the guy below you just made the same useless "lol its avilo" argument. He may overreact sometimes but some things are really clever and true. So you stopped reading and didn't bother to finish the rest of the argument. That's like someone saying "The world isn't flat, it's round, let me explain how we know..." And you stop reading after "The world isn't flat" because it doesn't fit your preconceptions. It also isn't exactly very helpful to any sort of discussion to read 2 sentences and then declare "I don't agree, I'm not reading the rest." That adds absolutely nothing. In BW, terran could not viably go bio in TvP except for some weird wonky all-in builds. It wasn't really a choice, the only matchup where bio was consistently viable for them was TvZ. It wasn't a choice then either. If you went bio in TvP, you pretty much lost the moment reavers hit the field.
What I am saying is IF Terran decides to go MECH YOU WILL BE ABLE TO MASS CARRIERS. Terran need to turtle on 3 bases to secure 6 gases to be able to upgrade as well as you with two armories and research at least Blue Flame for HEllbats,make ghosts with Moebius and cloak upgrade,as well as banshees and Ravens with their upgrades. Can you add all this to turrets and Sensor towers to prevent DTs and Warp Prism drops in the main and try to calculate the gas required.
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On February 01 2014 17:14 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 17:09 Dvriel wrote:On February 01 2014 16:53 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 16:48 SC2Toastie wrote:
Oracles at the top level disappear indeed. The reason is what you don''t seem to recognise:
Terrans have adapted their builds to hold oracles easilly. BUT that also means builds cannot be aggressive because you need marines at home. That also means you need to invest in defence infrastructure before you can even know whether you need it or not. The mere precence of the oracle forces adaptations -> just as the Tempest completely disables the Battle Cruiser from really working without mass raven support. Protoss builds have been changed to adapt to many things terrans can do as well. Old protoss builds like the 1 colossus, take a third, go straight to templar is completely dead. Protoss can't have map control when medivacs are coming out around the 10 minute mark, no matter how badly we want it. There are times when toss can't be aggressive, and there are times when terran can't be aggressive. If terran can be aggressive whenever it wants regardless of what build toss attempts, do you really think that would be reasonable or fair? The safest build that exists in PvT for Protoss is the Rain build, where he invests in a freaking cannon early on in his mineral lines in case of mine drops, even without knowing whether one is coming or not. If you play greedier than that, you can outright die to mines. Is it unfair that protoss has to account for detection early on in the game or else risk dying to mines? Cloak banshees disappeared because protoss is forced to open detection almost every game. Hero (CJ entus one) died in a proleague match a short while ago vs. Maru because he skipped detection and got killed by cloak banshees. So Protoss adapted to those threats and now opens robo every game, or oracle (which also detects). If nothing cloaked shows up, oh well, we make do with what we have. It's not simply terran who is forced to do certain things because of their opponent's options. You make it sound like protoss can do literally anything it wants at any time, that is absolutely not the case. Banshee did not disappear because of Protoss going for detection every game. They are gone because of the 13 ranged Planetary NExus,man. You are affraind of WM drops? How many PvTs end before 10 mins with Terran win? Oh, one game in the last two years? Really?Oracle not only detecs, but also can kill a mínimum of FOUR workers and escape without dying,whle able to detect home and kill the WM.The WM drop means the T is going 1-1-1 and this is only one of the two builds Terran can go vs P.Now lets see how many does P got??? Terran are able to be aggressive ONLY when Medivacs are out and if their banshee or WM drop does not do enough damage, they got miles behind because of the investment.Protoss can Oracle,DT w/o Warp Prism and blink and still can expand.The difference is that Protoss can be aggerssive from the minute 4 sending a Zealot,MScore Stalker poke while Terran cant even rsik to go up the ramp... Banshees with cloak stopped showing up because protoss always has detection. Nexus cannon means nothing if you can't detect the cloaked banshee, and they even made cloak cheaper. It's purely the fact that protoss adapted to the threats and gets detection every game. We've seen from games like that CJ_Hero vs. Maru game where Maru flat out killed him with cloaked banshees that if you skip detection you die to it. The cannon has absolutely nothing to do with it. Oh, and a one base oracle build getting only 4 workers actually puts the protoss behind, so there goes that argument. Stuff protoss does costs money too bro, it's not free. It's all an investment. In ZvT, once speed finishes, zerg gets a nice long while to have map control, and there's pretty much nothing terran can do about it until medivacs are out. It's NORMAL for a race to have timings where they can't really be aggressive. This argument is silly.
Protoss "adapted"???
You now have a unit that can be macro opened with out of a proxy Stargate that is guaranteed to get kills unless you fuck up, which doubles as a detector.
What are you going to come up with next, Protoss "adapted" to Reaper aggression by nerfing the Reaper and getting PO?
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United States7483 Posts
On February 01 2014 17:14 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 17:05 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 17:01 Dvriel wrote:On February 01 2014 16:44 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 16:38 Dvriel wrote:On February 01 2014 10:58 Musicus wrote:On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote:
I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S + Show Spoiler +That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change. Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while. On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first. Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning... Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink. This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO... Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about. I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2? I've tried all sorts of builds I want to work in this game, many of them don't work. I don't come in here whining about not being able to go only stargate units in PvT or only make units out of the robotics facility. I don't recall zergs complaining about not being able to reliably go ONLY zerglings in ZvP. Some things work, some don't. Just because it's your preferred playstyle does not mean it must be balanced against the entire enemy race. I don't get to go carriers, as much as I want that to be viable. I get that you like mech and want to play it, and that it's fun for you. However, it is not a balance issue that mech does not work vs. protoss. It is gripe you have about the way the race works yes, but complaining that it is unfair that mech doesn't work is like protoss complaining that mass carriers doesn't work. If you want mech to work vs. protoss with approximately the same strength as bio, either bio needs to be weakened a little, or protoss needs to be strengthened a little somewhere else. You cannot add options to one race without increasing its strength: the very option existing is a buff. Well, going only Stargate units in PvT is absolutely viable if the Terran plays mech. Opening with oracles,into voids or Phoenix with 2 base PO is posible. If the T goes BIO, you are dead, but this doesn mean you can compair going full Stargate,full Robo or Mass lings with going mech. MECH are Wm,Hellions,Hellbats,Tanks,Thors,Banshees,Ravens and even BCs or Medivacs(I use then to drop WM or HEllbats). Are you really gonna tell me all this units are the same as "mass lings"? Mech is a Style. You cant go mass carriers vs BIO Terran, but they shred everything if the Terran goes mech and allows you to mass them. Actually Protoss anti mech options are so many and so strong that its almost imposible to win and you only need to amove your Immortal/Archon/Collosi army into 15 presieged tanks. You call this "NORMAL"? The entire Protoss army for SC2 is designed to shut mech pretty hard: Charge to get quickly closer to siege lines.Blink doing the same.Collosi helping from behind,IMMORTALS shredding everything. Archons,Oracles,Void Rays...You need more? So what you're saying is, if the terran voluntarily lets me do it, I can do whatever I want? Thanks for the tautology. On February 01 2014 17:02 Tresher wrote:On February 01 2014 16:44 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 16:38 Dvriel wrote:On February 01 2014 10:58 Musicus wrote:On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote:
I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S + Show Spoiler +That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change. Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while. On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first. Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning... Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink. This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO... Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about. I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2? I've tried all sorts of builds I want to work in this game, many of them don't work. I don't come in here whining about not being able to go only stargate units in PvT or only make units out of the robotics facility. I don't recall zergs complaining about not being able to reliably go ONLY zerglings in ZvP. Some things work, some don't. Just because it's your preferred playstyle does not mean it must be balanced against the entire enemy race. I don't get to go carriers, as much as I want that to be viable. I get that you like mech and want to play it, and that it's fun for you. However, it is not a balance issue that mech does not work vs. protoss. It is gripe you have about the way the race works yes, but complaining that it is unfair that mech doesn't work is like protoss complaining that mass carriers doesn't work. If you want mech to work vs. protoss with approximately the same strength as bio, either bio needs to be weakened a little, or protoss needs to be strengthened a little somewhere else. You cannot add options to one race without increasing its strength: the very option existing is a buff. Stopped reading at the bolded part. Cant believe people still dont get it that going Bio OR Mech is a unique thing to the Terran race just like Zerg can mass/swarm Units and Protoss has few but strong Units. Obviously never played BW. LoL. "Its Avilo"... Nice way to discuss,huh? Who are you man? Mvp or maybe Polt with a name for TL? Avilo at least try mech. He is not a balance whiner. He is the only man saying the real f.... true about SC2. None of the Progamers dare to even say what are they really thinking and you disrespect him so easily...We are talking about mech and you are saying "marines are dangerous and quick." COME ON, PLEASE, REALLY??? WTF? Can you show me a single VOD or BO when Terran is aggressive in early game TvP¿???? When was the last time Protoss Progamer lost PvT at 7:30 min mark???? WHEN?
Blink all in forcé "certain adaptations"??? Have you ever played Terran, please? Come on, try it man and let me see your face, with 4 bunkers in Deadalus or Heavy Rain, stim,shields,medivacs and+1 at 7 mins while the blink all in is at your ramp.3 mins later you go out and discover the Protoss got doublé forge,robo,Nexus mining and fully saturated in the natural, you try to drop WHILE attacking the natural, the PO is casted on both nexi and you need to go home, trying to expand to catch the Protoss finishig his Storm and 3-3 at 14 min.After all this I wanna see you winning without pulling SCVs OR going MECH hehe. Please,THINK BEFORE YOU WRITE I fully agree here. Sad thing is when you posted that the guy below you just made the same useless "lol its avilo" argument. He may overreact sometimes but some things are really clever and true. So you stopped reading and didn't bother to finish the rest of the argument. That's like someone saying "The world isn't flat, it's round, let me explain how we know..." And you stop reading after "The world isn't flat" because it doesn't fit your preconceptions. It also isn't exactly very helpful to any sort of discussion to read 2 sentences and then declare "I don't agree, I'm not reading the rest." That adds absolutely nothing. In BW, terran could not viably go bio in TvP except for some weird wonky all-in builds. It wasn't really a choice, the only matchup where bio was consistently viable for them was TvZ. It wasn't a choice then either. If you went bio in TvP, you pretty much lost the moment reavers hit the field. What I am saying is IF Terran decides to go MECH YOU WILL BE ABLE TO MASS CARRIERS. Terran need to turtle on 3 bases to secure 6 gases to be able to upgrade as well as you with two armories and research at least Blue Flame for HEllbats,make ghosts with Moebius and cloak upgrade,as well as banshees and Ravens with their upgrades. Can you add all this to turrets and Sensor towers to prevent DTs and Warp Prism drops in the main and try to calculate the gas required.
And what I'm saying is that Terran has to choose to allow me to do it. If Zerg decides to go up to 100 drones before making units, I can go 3 nexus before gateway. That does not mean it's always viable regardless of what my opponent chooses to do, like people seem to want mech to be. Some strategies simply are weaker than others, or have vulnerabilities that others don't. And that's a good thing. Imagine, for a moment, if carrier rushing was viable in every matchup against every build regardless of what the opponent did. Wouldn't that suck?
QXC did a good job of explaining this in a video a while back: if both bio and mech are always viable options and both are always very strong choices, protoss is pretty much fucked.
On February 01 2014 17:16 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 17:14 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 17:09 Dvriel wrote:On February 01 2014 16:53 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 16:48 SC2Toastie wrote:
Oracles at the top level disappear indeed. The reason is what you don''t seem to recognise:
Terrans have adapted their builds to hold oracles easilly. BUT that also means builds cannot be aggressive because you need marines at home. That also means you need to invest in defence infrastructure before you can even know whether you need it or not. The mere precence of the oracle forces adaptations -> just as the Tempest completely disables the Battle Cruiser from really working without mass raven support. Protoss builds have been changed to adapt to many things terrans can do as well. Old protoss builds like the 1 colossus, take a third, go straight to templar is completely dead. Protoss can't have map control when medivacs are coming out around the 10 minute mark, no matter how badly we want it. There are times when toss can't be aggressive, and there are times when terran can't be aggressive. If terran can be aggressive whenever it wants regardless of what build toss attempts, do you really think that would be reasonable or fair? The safest build that exists in PvT for Protoss is the Rain build, where he invests in a freaking cannon early on in his mineral lines in case of mine drops, even without knowing whether one is coming or not. If you play greedier than that, you can outright die to mines. Is it unfair that protoss has to account for detection early on in the game or else risk dying to mines? Cloak banshees disappeared because protoss is forced to open detection almost every game. Hero (CJ entus one) died in a proleague match a short while ago vs. Maru because he skipped detection and got killed by cloak banshees. So Protoss adapted to those threats and now opens robo every game, or oracle (which also detects). If nothing cloaked shows up, oh well, we make do with what we have. It's not simply terran who is forced to do certain things because of their opponent's options. You make it sound like protoss can do literally anything it wants at any time, that is absolutely not the case. Banshee did not disappear because of Protoss going for detection every game. They are gone because of the 13 ranged Planetary NExus,man. You are affraind of WM drops? How many PvTs end before 10 mins with Terran win? Oh, one game in the last two years? Really?Oracle not only detecs, but also can kill a mínimum of FOUR workers and escape without dying,whle able to detect home and kill the WM.The WM drop means the T is going 1-1-1 and this is only one of the two builds Terran can go vs P.Now lets see how many does P got??? Terran are able to be aggressive ONLY when Medivacs are out and if their banshee or WM drop does not do enough damage, they got miles behind because of the investment.Protoss can Oracle,DT w/o Warp Prism and blink and still can expand.The difference is that Protoss can be aggerssive from the minute 4 sending a Zealot,MScore Stalker poke while Terran cant even rsik to go up the ramp... Banshees with cloak stopped showing up because protoss always has detection. Nexus cannon means nothing if you can't detect the cloaked banshee, and they even made cloak cheaper. It's purely the fact that protoss adapted to the threats and gets detection every game. We've seen from games like that CJ_Hero vs. Maru game where Maru flat out killed him with cloaked banshees that if you skip detection you die to it. The cannon has absolutely nothing to do with it. Oh, and a one base oracle build getting only 4 workers actually puts the protoss behind, so there goes that argument. Stuff protoss does costs money too bro, it's not free. It's all an investment. In ZvT, once speed finishes, zerg gets a nice long while to have map control, and there's pretty much nothing terran can do about it until medivacs are out. It's NORMAL for a race to have timings where they can't really be aggressive. This argument is silly. Protoss "adapted"??? You now have a unit that can be macro opened with out of a proxy Stargate that is guaranteed to get kills unless you fuck up, which doubles as a detector. What are you going to come up with next, Protoss "adapted" to Reaper aggression by nerfing the Reaper and getting PO?
I'm sorry, what? I just explained how builds like the old 3 nexus DT build InCa invented in GSL are completely dead due to things like widow mines and cloak banshee, and how every toss build must incorporate detection, and you respond with "lol you didn't adapt, you have detection?" Let me ask you this, given the investment in a stargate, an oracle, and the timings involved that require a delayed expansion, and the delayed robo tech and upgrades from forges, exactly how many kills does an oracle need to get to break even compared to a simple 1 gate expand into robo + double forge? And it's absolutely not guaranteed to get kills, I've seen pro games where the oracle flies in, runs smack into a bunch of marines and zooms out without a kill. I've seen oracles get 2-3 kills, I've seen games in proleague and GSL where an oracle flies in and just dies immediately. There is no guarantee.
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On February 01 2014 17:08 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Even as a Zerg I don't support, nor do I understand the hydralisk buff. Seems like another example of Blizzard messing with something that isn't broken again... ugh fixed
Though I agree with you,You can't deny we need better anti-air though. And I meant a buff in strictly anti air
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United States7483 Posts
On February 01 2014 17:18 SeventhPride wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 17:08 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Even as a Zerg I don't support, nor do I understand the hydralisk buff. Seems like another example of Blizzard messing with something that isn't broken again... ugh On February 01 2014 16:48 ZenithM wrote:
I don't know Kim... fixed Though I agree with you,You can't deny we need better anti-air though. And I meant a buff in strictly anti air
I don't agree, your anti-air is pretty powerful overall. Fungal + corrupter fleet + spores and vipers for abduct pretty much make it impossible for a protoss air army to ever engage zerg without dying. Swarm hosts make it so templar support for storms is non-viable, and zerg just abducts the protoss to death. It's a really boring and lame game, but if you buff other anti-air, you're just going to see zerg waltz in and kill toss pretty much every time.
Winrates for zergs overall right now are extremely solid, very close to 50/50 in all matchups. Why do they need a buff at all?
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On February 01 2014 17:23 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 17:18 SeventhPride wrote:On February 01 2014 17:08 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Even as a Zerg I don't support, nor do I understand the hydralisk buff. Seems like another example of Blizzard messing with something that isn't broken again... ugh On February 01 2014 16:48 ZenithM wrote:
I don't know Kim... fixed Though I agree with you,You can't deny we need better anti-air though. And I meant a buff in strictly anti air I don't agree, your anti-air is pretty powerful overall. Fungal + corrupter fleet + spores and vipers for abduct pretty much make it impossible for a protoss air army to ever engage zerg without dying. Swarm hosts make it so templar support for storms is non-viable, and zerg just abducts the protoss to death. It's a really boring and lame game, but if you buff other anti-air, you're just going to see zerg waltz in and kill toss pretty much every time.
Think about what you said, you have just listed a need for infestation pit,spire and hive just to defend against a airtoss. Well for terran its barracks and toss a cyber core, plus add in the fact that marines and stalkers scale well from early-mid-late game. What you listed for us is only available in mid game, plus hydras really really dont scale well.
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On February 01 2014 17:25 SeventhPride wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 17:23 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 17:18 SeventhPride wrote:On February 01 2014 17:08 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Even as a Zerg I don't support, nor do I understand the hydralisk buff. Seems like another example of Blizzard messing with something that isn't broken again... ugh On February 01 2014 16:48 ZenithM wrote:
I don't know Kim... fixed Though I agree with you,You can't deny we need better anti-air though. And I meant a buff in strictly anti air I don't agree, your anti-air is pretty powerful overall. Fungal + corrupter fleet + spores and vipers for abduct pretty much make it impossible for a protoss air army to ever engage zerg without dying. Swarm hosts make it so templar support for storms is non-viable, and zerg just abducts the protoss to death. It's a really boring and lame game, but if you buff other anti-air, you're just going to see zerg waltz in and kill toss pretty much every time. Dont talk about win rates only when it benefits you. you have posted before when toss were doing well that blizz should not be dependent on winrates to balance games.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 01 2014 17:25 SeventhPride wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 17:23 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 17:18 SeventhPride wrote:On February 01 2014 17:08 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Even as a Zerg I don't support, nor do I understand the hydralisk buff. Seems like another example of Blizzard messing with something that isn't broken again... ugh On February 01 2014 16:48 ZenithM wrote:
I don't know Kim... fixed Though I agree with you,You can't deny we need better anti-air though. And I meant a buff in strictly anti air I don't agree, your anti-air is pretty powerful overall. Fungal + corrupter fleet + spores and vipers for abduct pretty much make it impossible for a protoss air army to ever engage zerg without dying. Swarm hosts make it so templar support for storms is non-viable, and zerg just abducts the protoss to death. It's a really boring and lame game, but if you buff other anti-air, you're just going to see zerg waltz in and kill toss pretty much every time. Think about what you said, you have just listed a need for infestation pit,spire and hive just to defend against a airtoss. Well for terran its barracks and toss a cyber core, plus add in the fact that marines and stalkers scale well from early-mid-late game. What you listed for us is only available in mid game, plus hydras really really dont scale well.
In the mid-game, hydra/infestor does very well. Zerg tech is easier to get than toss or terran tech is, you just make the one building and every hatch can make your tech. You only need that huge anti-air comp for the end game toss army. For the mid-game, hydra/infestor does fantastic vs. void rays. Earlier on, queens do extremely well. The matchup is quite balanced right now, I don't understand the complaints.
On February 01 2014 17:25 SeventhPride wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 17:23 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 17:18 SeventhPride wrote:On February 01 2014 17:08 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Even as a Zerg I don't support, nor do I understand the hydralisk buff. Seems like another example of Blizzard messing with something that isn't broken again... ugh On February 01 2014 16:48 ZenithM wrote:
I don't know Kim... fixed Though I agree with you,You can't deny we need better anti-air though. And I meant a buff in strictly anti air I don't agree, your anti-air is pretty powerful overall. Fungal + corrupter fleet + spores and vipers for abduct pretty much make it impossible for a protoss air army to ever engage zerg without dying. Swarm hosts make it so templar support for storms is non-viable, and zerg just abducts the protoss to death. It's a really boring and lame game, but if you buff other anti-air, you're just going to see zerg waltz in and kill toss pretty much every time. Dont talk about win rates only when it benefits you. you have posted before when toss were doing well that blizz should not be dependent on winrates to balance games.
I've said that blizzard should delay patches for a little while to see if the trends pull the winrates back to around even, I've even said that balance flaws are not design flaws. I've never said winrates should be ignored, they are literally the only data that exists. I have said that ladder winrates aren't as valuable as pro game winrates, if that's what you are referring to. I have said that which winrates matter.
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On February 01 2014 17:27 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 17:25 SeventhPride wrote:On February 01 2014 17:23 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 17:18 SeventhPride wrote:On February 01 2014 17:08 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Even as a Zerg I don't support, nor do I understand the hydralisk buff. Seems like another example of Blizzard messing with something that isn't broken again... ugh On February 01 2014 16:48 ZenithM wrote:
I don't know Kim... fixed Though I agree with you,You can't deny we need better anti-air though. And I meant a buff in strictly anti air I don't agree, your anti-air is pretty powerful overall. Fungal + corrupter fleet + spores and vipers for abduct pretty much make it impossible for a protoss air army to ever engage zerg without dying. Swarm hosts make it so templar support for storms is non-viable, and zerg just abducts the protoss to death. It's a really boring and lame game, but if you buff other anti-air, you're just going to see zerg waltz in and kill toss pretty much every time. Think about what you said, you have just listed a need for infestation pit,spire and hive just to defend against a airtoss. Well for terran its barracks and toss a cyber core, plus add in the fact that marines and stalkers scale well from early-mid-late game. What you listed for us is only available in mid game, plus hydras really really dont scale well. In the mid-game, hydra/infestor does very well. Zerg tech is easier to get than toss or terran tech is, you just make the one building and every hatch can make your tech. You only need that huge anti-air comp for the end game toss army. For the mid-game, hydra/infestor does fantastic vs. void rays. Earlier on, queens do extremely well. The matchup is quite balanced right now, I don't understand the complaints.
You are assuming all zerg wants to do is defend. Early on, Queens cant do shit with how slow they walk. Why shouldnt zerg have a viable attack AND defend option early on?Right now with how protoss are with the photon overcharge and void rays, shutting down roach attacks and lings are so easy. And please, hydra/infestor get shit on well by protosses who have the brains to build colossus behind their void rays
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Where's the fix to blink all ins?
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United States7483 Posts
On February 01 2014 17:30 SeventhPride wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 17:27 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 17:25 SeventhPride wrote:On February 01 2014 17:23 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 17:18 SeventhPride wrote:On February 01 2014 17:08 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Even as a Zerg I don't support, nor do I understand the hydralisk buff. Seems like another example of Blizzard messing with something that isn't broken again... ugh On February 01 2014 16:48 ZenithM wrote:
I don't know Kim... fixed Though I agree with you,You can't deny we need better anti-air though. And I meant a buff in strictly anti air I don't agree, your anti-air is pretty powerful overall. Fungal + corrupter fleet + spores and vipers for abduct pretty much make it impossible for a protoss air army to ever engage zerg without dying. Swarm hosts make it so templar support for storms is non-viable, and zerg just abducts the protoss to death. It's a really boring and lame game, but if you buff other anti-air, you're just going to see zerg waltz in and kill toss pretty much every time. Think about what you said, you have just listed a need for infestation pit,spire and hive just to defend against a airtoss. Well for terran its barracks and toss a cyber core, plus add in the fact that marines and stalkers scale well from early-mid-late game. What you listed for us is only available in mid game, plus hydras really really dont scale well. In the mid-game, hydra/infestor does very well. Zerg tech is easier to get than toss or terran tech is, you just make the one building and every hatch can make your tech. You only need that huge anti-air comp for the end game toss army. For the mid-game, hydra/infestor does fantastic vs. void rays. Earlier on, queens do extremely well. The matchup is quite balanced right now, I don't understand the complaints. You are assuming all zerg wants to do is defend. Early on , Queens cant do shit with how slow they walk. Why shouldnt zerg have a viable attack AND defend option early on? And please, hydra/infestor get shit on well by protosses who have the brains to build colossus.
Um, if the toss is going colossus, why do you need anti-air? I was assuming you were referring to dealing with heavy void ray builds, but those don't seem to be nearly as strong these days, and zergs are crushing them left and right in proleague and GSL. Zergs have plenty of viable attacks, ranging from roach/hydra aggression to the leenock style heavy upgrade ling/ultra busts etc., or even the mutalisk switches and pressure.
If you want to attack any time you feel like it and have it always work, I don't know what to tell you. Protoss should absolutely have ways of defending aggression from zerg, and it has to be some kind of tech because zerg production is massive in comparison to protoss production.
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On February 01 2014 17:17 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 17:14 Dvriel wrote:On February 01 2014 17:05 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 17:01 Dvriel wrote:On February 01 2014 16:44 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 16:38 Dvriel wrote:On February 01 2014 10:58 Musicus wrote:On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote:
I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S + Show Spoiler +That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change. Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while. On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first. Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning... Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink. This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO... Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about. I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2? I've tried all sorts of builds I want to work in this game, many of them don't work. I don't come in here whining about not being able to go only stargate units in PvT or only make units out of the robotics facility. I don't recall zergs complaining about not being able to reliably go ONLY zerglings in ZvP. Some things work, some don't. Just because it's your preferred playstyle does not mean it must be balanced against the entire enemy race. I don't get to go carriers, as much as I want that to be viable. I get that you like mech and want to play it, and that it's fun for you. However, it is not a balance issue that mech does not work vs. protoss. It is gripe you have about the way the race works yes, but complaining that it is unfair that mech doesn't work is like protoss complaining that mass carriers doesn't work. If you want mech to work vs. protoss with approximately the same strength as bio, either bio needs to be weakened a little, or protoss needs to be strengthened a little somewhere else. You cannot add options to one race without increasing its strength: the very option existing is a buff. Well, going only Stargate units in PvT is absolutely viable if the Terran plays mech. Opening with oracles,into voids or Phoenix with 2 base PO is posible. If the T goes BIO, you are dead, but this doesn mean you can compair going full Stargate,full Robo or Mass lings with going mech. MECH are Wm,Hellions,Hellbats,Tanks,Thors,Banshees,Ravens and even BCs or Medivacs(I use then to drop WM or HEllbats). Are you really gonna tell me all this units are the same as "mass lings"? Mech is a Style. You cant go mass carriers vs BIO Terran, but they shred everything if the Terran goes mech and allows you to mass them. Actually Protoss anti mech options are so many and so strong that its almost imposible to win and you only need to amove your Immortal/Archon/Collosi army into 15 presieged tanks. You call this "NORMAL"? The entire Protoss army for SC2 is designed to shut mech pretty hard: Charge to get quickly closer to siege lines.Blink doing the same.Collosi helping from behind,IMMORTALS shredding everything. Archons,Oracles,Void Rays...You need more? So what you're saying is, if the terran voluntarily lets me do it, I can do whatever I want? Thanks for the tautology. On February 01 2014 17:02 Tresher wrote:On February 01 2014 16:44 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 16:38 Dvriel wrote:On February 01 2014 10:58 Musicus wrote:On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote:
I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S + Show Spoiler +That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change. Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while. On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first. Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning... Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink. This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO... Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about. I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2? I've tried all sorts of builds I want to work in this game, many of them don't work. I don't come in here whining about not being able to go only stargate units in PvT or only make units out of the robotics facility. I don't recall zergs complaining about not being able to reliably go ONLY zerglings in ZvP. Some things work, some don't. Just because it's your preferred playstyle does not mean it must be balanced against the entire enemy race. I don't get to go carriers, as much as I want that to be viable. I get that you like mech and want to play it, and that it's fun for you. However, it is not a balance issue that mech does not work vs. protoss. It is gripe you have about the way the race works yes, but complaining that it is unfair that mech doesn't work is like protoss complaining that mass carriers doesn't work. If you want mech to work vs. protoss with approximately the same strength as bio, either bio needs to be weakened a little, or protoss needs to be strengthened a little somewhere else. You cannot add options to one race without increasing its strength: the very option existing is a buff. Stopped reading at the bolded part. Cant believe people still dont get it that going Bio OR Mech is a unique thing to the Terran race just like Zerg can mass/swarm Units and Protoss has few but strong Units. Obviously never played BW. LoL. "Its Avilo"... Nice way to discuss,huh? Who are you man? Mvp or maybe Polt with a name for TL? Avilo at least try mech. He is not a balance whiner. He is the only man saying the real f.... true about SC2. None of the Progamers dare to even say what are they really thinking and you disrespect him so easily...We are talking about mech and you are saying "marines are dangerous and quick." COME ON, PLEASE, REALLY??? WTF? Can you show me a single VOD or BO when Terran is aggressive in early game TvP¿???? When was the last time Protoss Progamer lost PvT at 7:30 min mark???? WHEN?
Blink all in forcé "certain adaptations"??? Have you ever played Terran, please? Come on, try it man and let me see your face, with 4 bunkers in Deadalus or Heavy Rain, stim,shields,medivacs and+1 at 7 mins while the blink all in is at your ramp.3 mins later you go out and discover the Protoss got doublé forge,robo,Nexus mining and fully saturated in the natural, you try to drop WHILE attacking the natural, the PO is casted on both nexi and you need to go home, trying to expand to catch the Protoss finishig his Storm and 3-3 at 14 min.After all this I wanna see you winning without pulling SCVs OR going MECH hehe. Please,THINK BEFORE YOU WRITE I fully agree here. Sad thing is when you posted that the guy below you just made the same useless "lol its avilo" argument. He may overreact sometimes but some things are really clever and true. So you stopped reading and didn't bother to finish the rest of the argument. That's like someone saying "The world isn't flat, it's round, let me explain how we know..." And you stop reading after "The world isn't flat" because it doesn't fit your preconceptions. It also isn't exactly very helpful to any sort of discussion to read 2 sentences and then declare "I don't agree, I'm not reading the rest." That adds absolutely nothing. In BW, terran could not viably go bio in TvP except for some weird wonky all-in builds. It wasn't really a choice, the only matchup where bio was consistently viable for them was TvZ. It wasn't a choice then either. If you went bio in TvP, you pretty much lost the moment reavers hit the field. What I am saying is IF Terran decides to go MECH YOU WILL BE ABLE TO MASS CARRIERS. Terran need to turtle on 3 bases to secure 6 gases to be able to upgrade as well as you with two armories and research at least Blue Flame for HEllbats,make ghosts with Moebius and cloak upgrade,as well as banshees and Ravens with their upgrades. Can you add all this to turrets and Sensor towers to prevent DTs and Warp Prism drops in the main and try to calculate the gas required. And what I'm saying is that Terran has to choose to allow me to do it. If Zerg decides to go up to 100 drones before making units, I can go 3 nexus before gateway. That does not mean it's always viable regardless of what my opponent chooses to do, like people seem to want mech to be. Some strategies simply are weaker than others, or have vulnerabilities that others don't. And that's a good thing. Imagine, for a moment, if carrier rushing was viable in every matchup against every build regardless of what the opponent did. Wouldn't that suck? QXC did a good job of explaining this in a video a while back: if both bio and mech are always viable options and both are always very strong choices, protoss is pretty much fucked. Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 17:16 pure.Wasted wrote:On February 01 2014 17:14 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 17:09 Dvriel wrote:On February 01 2014 16:53 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 16:48 SC2Toastie wrote:
Oracles at the top level disappear indeed. The reason is what you don''t seem to recognise:
Terrans have adapted their builds to hold oracles easilly. BUT that also means builds cannot be aggressive because you need marines at home. That also means you need to invest in defence infrastructure before you can even know whether you need it or not. The mere precence of the oracle forces adaptations -> just as the Tempest completely disables the Battle Cruiser from really working without mass raven support. Protoss builds have been changed to adapt to many things terrans can do as well. Old protoss builds like the 1 colossus, take a third, go straight to templar is completely dead. Protoss can't have map control when medivacs are coming out around the 10 minute mark, no matter how badly we want it. There are times when toss can't be aggressive, and there are times when terran can't be aggressive. If terran can be aggressive whenever it wants regardless of what build toss attempts, do you really think that would be reasonable or fair? The safest build that exists in PvT for Protoss is the Rain build, where he invests in a freaking cannon early on in his mineral lines in case of mine drops, even without knowing whether one is coming or not. If you play greedier than that, you can outright die to mines. Is it unfair that protoss has to account for detection early on in the game or else risk dying to mines? Cloak banshees disappeared because protoss is forced to open detection almost every game. Hero (CJ entus one) died in a proleague match a short while ago vs. Maru because he skipped detection and got killed by cloak banshees. So Protoss adapted to those threats and now opens robo every game, or oracle (which also detects). If nothing cloaked shows up, oh well, we make do with what we have. It's not simply terran who is forced to do certain things because of their opponent's options. You make it sound like protoss can do literally anything it wants at any time, that is absolutely not the case. Banshee did not disappear because of Protoss going for detection every game. They are gone because of the 13 ranged Planetary NExus,man. You are affraind of WM drops? How many PvTs end before 10 mins with Terran win? Oh, one game in the last two years? Really?Oracle not only detecs, but also can kill a mínimum of FOUR workers and escape without dying,whle able to detect home and kill the WM.The WM drop means the T is going 1-1-1 and this is only one of the two builds Terran can go vs P.Now lets see how many does P got??? Terran are able to be aggressive ONLY when Medivacs are out and if their banshee or WM drop does not do enough damage, they got miles behind because of the investment.Protoss can Oracle,DT w/o Warp Prism and blink and still can expand.The difference is that Protoss can be aggerssive from the minute 4 sending a Zealot,MScore Stalker poke while Terran cant even rsik to go up the ramp... Banshees with cloak stopped showing up because protoss always has detection. Nexus cannon means nothing if you can't detect the cloaked banshee, and they even made cloak cheaper. It's purely the fact that protoss adapted to the threats and gets detection every game. We've seen from games like that CJ_Hero vs. Maru game where Maru flat out killed him with cloaked banshees that if you skip detection you die to it. The cannon has absolutely nothing to do with it. Oh, and a one base oracle build getting only 4 workers actually puts the protoss behind, so there goes that argument. Stuff protoss does costs money too bro, it's not free. It's all an investment. In ZvT, once speed finishes, zerg gets a nice long while to have map control, and there's pretty much nothing terran can do about it until medivacs are out. It's NORMAL for a race to have timings where they can't really be aggressive. This argument is silly. Protoss "adapted"??? You now have a unit that can be macro opened with out of a proxy Stargate that is guaranteed to get kills unless you fuck up, which doubles as a detector. What are you going to come up with next, Protoss "adapted" to Reaper aggression by nerfing the Reaper and getting PO? I'm sorry, what? Let me ask you this, given the investment in a stargate, an oracle, and the timings involved that require a delayed expansion, and the delayed robo tech and upgrades from forges, exactly how many kills does an oracle need to get to break even compared to a simple 1 gate expand into robo + double forge? And it's absolutely not guaranteed to get kills, I've seen pro games where the oracle flies in, runs smack into a bunch of marines and zooms out without a kill. I've seen oracles get 2-3 kills, I've seen games in proleague and GSL where an oracle flies in and just dies immediately. There is no guarantee.
I didn't say that a proxy Oracle that gets 3 kills puts you as ahead of the Terran as getting double forge, Psi Storm, and Colossus tech. I said that it's a macro opening. Which it is.
As for how many kills it gets, yeah, you're right, if the Protoss controls like crap and forgets that the Oracle can just leave the base and come back 30 seconds later from a different angle, it can get zero kills. But if they don't forget, then games like this happen.
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On February 01 2014 17:33 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 17:30 SeventhPride wrote:On February 01 2014 17:27 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 17:25 SeventhPride wrote:On February 01 2014 17:23 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 17:18 SeventhPride wrote:On February 01 2014 17:08 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Even as a Zerg I don't support, nor do I understand the hydralisk buff. Seems like another example of Blizzard messing with something that isn't broken again... ugh On February 01 2014 16:48 ZenithM wrote:
I don't know Kim... fixed Though I agree with you,You can't deny we need better anti-air though. And I meant a buff in strictly anti air I don't agree, your anti-air is pretty powerful overall. Fungal + corrupter fleet + spores and vipers for abduct pretty much make it impossible for a protoss air army to ever engage zerg without dying. Swarm hosts make it so templar support for storms is non-viable, and zerg just abducts the protoss to death. It's a really boring and lame game, but if you buff other anti-air, you're just going to see zerg waltz in and kill toss pretty much every time. Think about what you said, you have just listed a need for infestation pit,spire and hive just to defend against a airtoss. Well for terran its barracks and toss a cyber core, plus add in the fact that marines and stalkers scale well from early-mid-late game. What you listed for us is only available in mid game, plus hydras really really dont scale well. In the mid-game, hydra/infestor does very well. Zerg tech is easier to get than toss or terran tech is, you just make the one building and every hatch can make your tech. You only need that huge anti-air comp for the end game toss army. For the mid-game, hydra/infestor does fantastic vs. void rays. Earlier on, queens do extremely well. The matchup is quite balanced right now, I don't understand the complaints. You are assuming all zerg wants to do is defend. Early on , Queens cant do shit with how slow they walk. Why shouldnt zerg have a viable attack AND defend option early on? And please, hydra/infestor get shit on well by protosses who have the brains to build colossus. Um, if the toss is going colossus, why do you need anti-air? I was assuming you were referring to dealing with heavy void ray builds, but those don't seem to be nearly as strong these days, and zergs are crushing them left and right in proleague and GSL. Zergs have plenty of viable attacks, ranging from roach/hydra aggression to the leenock style heavy upgrade ling/ultra busts etc., or even the mutalisk switches and pressure.
Read my edit, i wasn't finished. And your "viable attacks" are only avaliable during midgame-late game. If roach hydra is used in early game, its an all in. And not a protoss "all in" but a all in that if failed means a lost.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 01 2014 17:33 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 17:17 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 17:14 Dvriel wrote:On February 01 2014 17:05 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 17:01 Dvriel wrote:On February 01 2014 16:44 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 16:38 Dvriel wrote:On February 01 2014 10:58 Musicus wrote:On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote:
I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S + Show Spoiler +That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change. Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while. On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first. Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning... Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink. This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO... Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about. I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2? I've tried all sorts of builds I want to work in this game, many of them don't work. I don't come in here whining about not being able to go only stargate units in PvT or only make units out of the robotics facility. I don't recall zergs complaining about not being able to reliably go ONLY zerglings in ZvP. Some things work, some don't. Just because it's your preferred playstyle does not mean it must be balanced against the entire enemy race. I don't get to go carriers, as much as I want that to be viable. I get that you like mech and want to play it, and that it's fun for you. However, it is not a balance issue that mech does not work vs. protoss. It is gripe you have about the way the race works yes, but complaining that it is unfair that mech doesn't work is like protoss complaining that mass carriers doesn't work. If you want mech to work vs. protoss with approximately the same strength as bio, either bio needs to be weakened a little, or protoss needs to be strengthened a little somewhere else. You cannot add options to one race without increasing its strength: the very option existing is a buff. Well, going only Stargate units in PvT is absolutely viable if the Terran plays mech. Opening with oracles,into voids or Phoenix with 2 base PO is posible. If the T goes BIO, you are dead, but this doesn mean you can compair going full Stargate,full Robo or Mass lings with going mech. MECH are Wm,Hellions,Hellbats,Tanks,Thors,Banshees,Ravens and even BCs or Medivacs(I use then to drop WM or HEllbats). Are you really gonna tell me all this units are the same as "mass lings"? Mech is a Style. You cant go mass carriers vs BIO Terran, but they shred everything if the Terran goes mech and allows you to mass them. Actually Protoss anti mech options are so many and so strong that its almost imposible to win and you only need to amove your Immortal/Archon/Collosi army into 15 presieged tanks. You call this "NORMAL"? The entire Protoss army for SC2 is designed to shut mech pretty hard: Charge to get quickly closer to siege lines.Blink doing the same.Collosi helping from behind,IMMORTALS shredding everything. Archons,Oracles,Void Rays...You need more? So what you're saying is, if the terran voluntarily lets me do it, I can do whatever I want? Thanks for the tautology. On February 01 2014 17:02 Tresher wrote:On February 01 2014 16:44 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 16:38 Dvriel wrote:On February 01 2014 10:58 Musicus wrote:On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote:
I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S + Show Spoiler +That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change. Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while. On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first. Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning... Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink. This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO... Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about. I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2? I've tried all sorts of builds I want to work in this game, many of them don't work. I don't come in here whining about not being able to go only stargate units in PvT or only make units out of the robotics facility. I don't recall zergs complaining about not being able to reliably go ONLY zerglings in ZvP. Some things work, some don't. Just because it's your preferred playstyle does not mean it must be balanced against the entire enemy race. I don't get to go carriers, as much as I want that to be viable. I get that you like mech and want to play it, and that it's fun for you. However, it is not a balance issue that mech does not work vs. protoss. It is gripe you have about the way the race works yes, but complaining that it is unfair that mech doesn't work is like protoss complaining that mass carriers doesn't work. If you want mech to work vs. protoss with approximately the same strength as bio, either bio needs to be weakened a little, or protoss needs to be strengthened a little somewhere else. You cannot add options to one race without increasing its strength: the very option existing is a buff. Stopped reading at the bolded part. Cant believe people still dont get it that going Bio OR Mech is a unique thing to the Terran race just like Zerg can mass/swarm Units and Protoss has few but strong Units. Obviously never played BW. LoL. "Its Avilo"... Nice way to discuss,huh? Who are you man? Mvp or maybe Polt with a name for TL? Avilo at least try mech. He is not a balance whiner. He is the only man saying the real f.... true about SC2. None of the Progamers dare to even say what are they really thinking and you disrespect him so easily...We are talking about mech and you are saying "marines are dangerous and quick." COME ON, PLEASE, REALLY??? WTF? Can you show me a single VOD or BO when Terran is aggressive in early game TvP¿???? When was the last time Protoss Progamer lost PvT at 7:30 min mark???? WHEN?
Blink all in forcé "certain adaptations"??? Have you ever played Terran, please? Come on, try it man and let me see your face, with 4 bunkers in Deadalus or Heavy Rain, stim,shields,medivacs and+1 at 7 mins while the blink all in is at your ramp.3 mins later you go out and discover the Protoss got doublé forge,robo,Nexus mining and fully saturated in the natural, you try to drop WHILE attacking the natural, the PO is casted on both nexi and you need to go home, trying to expand to catch the Protoss finishig his Storm and 3-3 at 14 min.After all this I wanna see you winning without pulling SCVs OR going MECH hehe. Please,THINK BEFORE YOU WRITE I fully agree here. Sad thing is when you posted that the guy below you just made the same useless "lol its avilo" argument. He may overreact sometimes but some things are really clever and true. So you stopped reading and didn't bother to finish the rest of the argument. That's like someone saying "The world isn't flat, it's round, let me explain how we know..." And you stop reading after "The world isn't flat" because it doesn't fit your preconceptions. It also isn't exactly very helpful to any sort of discussion to read 2 sentences and then declare "I don't agree, I'm not reading the rest." That adds absolutely nothing. In BW, terran could not viably go bio in TvP except for some weird wonky all-in builds. It wasn't really a choice, the only matchup where bio was consistently viable for them was TvZ. It wasn't a choice then either. If you went bio in TvP, you pretty much lost the moment reavers hit the field. What I am saying is IF Terran decides to go MECH YOU WILL BE ABLE TO MASS CARRIERS. Terran need to turtle on 3 bases to secure 6 gases to be able to upgrade as well as you with two armories and research at least Blue Flame for HEllbats,make ghosts with Moebius and cloak upgrade,as well as banshees and Ravens with their upgrades. Can you add all this to turrets and Sensor towers to prevent DTs and Warp Prism drops in the main and try to calculate the gas required. And what I'm saying is that Terran has to choose to allow me to do it. If Zerg decides to go up to 100 drones before making units, I can go 3 nexus before gateway. That does not mean it's always viable regardless of what my opponent chooses to do, like people seem to want mech to be. Some strategies simply are weaker than others, or have vulnerabilities that others don't. And that's a good thing. Imagine, for a moment, if carrier rushing was viable in every matchup against every build regardless of what the opponent did. Wouldn't that suck? QXC did a good job of explaining this in a video a while back: if both bio and mech are always viable options and both are always very strong choices, protoss is pretty much fucked. On February 01 2014 17:16 pure.Wasted wrote:On February 01 2014 17:14 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 17:09 Dvriel wrote:On February 01 2014 16:53 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 16:48 SC2Toastie wrote:
Oracles at the top level disappear indeed. The reason is what you don''t seem to recognise:
Terrans have adapted their builds to hold oracles easilly. BUT that also means builds cannot be aggressive because you need marines at home. That also means you need to invest in defence infrastructure before you can even know whether you need it or not. The mere precence of the oracle forces adaptations -> just as the Tempest completely disables the Battle Cruiser from really working without mass raven support. Protoss builds have been changed to adapt to many things terrans can do as well. Old protoss builds like the 1 colossus, take a third, go straight to templar is completely dead. Protoss can't have map control when medivacs are coming out around the 10 minute mark, no matter how badly we want it. There are times when toss can't be aggressive, and there are times when terran can't be aggressive. If terran can be aggressive whenever it wants regardless of what build toss attempts, do you really think that would be reasonable or fair? The safest build that exists in PvT for Protoss is the Rain build, where he invests in a freaking cannon early on in his mineral lines in case of mine drops, even without knowing whether one is coming or not. If you play greedier than that, you can outright die to mines. Is it unfair that protoss has to account for detection early on in the game or else risk dying to mines? Cloak banshees disappeared because protoss is forced to open detection almost every game. Hero (CJ entus one) died in a proleague match a short while ago vs. Maru because he skipped detection and got killed by cloak banshees. So Protoss adapted to those threats and now opens robo every game, or oracle (which also detects). If nothing cloaked shows up, oh well, we make do with what we have. It's not simply terran who is forced to do certain things because of their opponent's options. You make it sound like protoss can do literally anything it wants at any time, that is absolutely not the case. Banshee did not disappear because of Protoss going for detection every game. They are gone because of the 13 ranged Planetary NExus,man. You are affraind of WM drops? How many PvTs end before 10 mins with Terran win? Oh, one game in the last two years? Really?Oracle not only detecs, but also can kill a mínimum of FOUR workers and escape without dying,whle able to detect home and kill the WM.The WM drop means the T is going 1-1-1 and this is only one of the two builds Terran can go vs P.Now lets see how many does P got??? Terran are able to be aggressive ONLY when Medivacs are out and if their banshee or WM drop does not do enough damage, they got miles behind because of the investment.Protoss can Oracle,DT w/o Warp Prism and blink and still can expand.The difference is that Protoss can be aggerssive from the minute 4 sending a Zealot,MScore Stalker poke while Terran cant even rsik to go up the ramp... Banshees with cloak stopped showing up because protoss always has detection. Nexus cannon means nothing if you can't detect the cloaked banshee, and they even made cloak cheaper. It's purely the fact that protoss adapted to the threats and gets detection every game. We've seen from games like that CJ_Hero vs. Maru game where Maru flat out killed him with cloaked banshees that if you skip detection you die to it. The cannon has absolutely nothing to do with it. Oh, and a one base oracle build getting only 4 workers actually puts the protoss behind, so there goes that argument. Stuff protoss does costs money too bro, it's not free. It's all an investment. In ZvT, once speed finishes, zerg gets a nice long while to have map control, and there's pretty much nothing terran can do about it until medivacs are out. It's NORMAL for a race to have timings where they can't really be aggressive. This argument is silly. Protoss "adapted"??? You now have a unit that can be macro opened with out of a proxy Stargate that is guaranteed to get kills unless you fuck up, which doubles as a detector. What are you going to come up with next, Protoss "adapted" to Reaper aggression by nerfing the Reaper and getting PO? I'm sorry, what? Let me ask you this, given the investment in a stargate, an oracle, and the timings involved that require a delayed expansion, and the delayed robo tech and upgrades from forges, exactly how many kills does an oracle need to get to break even compared to a simple 1 gate expand into robo + double forge? And it's absolutely not guaranteed to get kills, I've seen pro games where the oracle flies in, runs smack into a bunch of marines and zooms out without a kill. I've seen oracles get 2-3 kills, I've seen games in proleague and GSL where an oracle flies in and just dies immediately. There is no guarantee. I didn't say that a proxy Oracle that gets 3 kills puts you as ahead of the Terran as getting double forge, Psi Storm, and Colossus tech. I said that it's a macro opening. Which it is. As for how many kills it gets, yeah, you're right, if the Protoss controls like crap and forgets that the Oracle can just leave the base and come back 30 seconds later from a different angle, it can get zero kills. But if they don't forget, then games like this happen.
Really? You're going to point to a game where keen got behind from a proxy gate in his main that he failed to scout as evidence that proxy oracle is broken? Oh, he then, despite scouting his opponent's main with 2 reapers, and seeing no tech or expansion, decided to build a reactor and expansion simultaneously and therefore had no units to defend the oracle?
Keen played absurdly greedy and ignored the info from scouting. The complete lack of tech in the main and no expansion should have been a huge tell.
On February 01 2014 17:35 SeventhPride wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 17:33 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 17:30 SeventhPride wrote:On February 01 2014 17:27 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 17:25 SeventhPride wrote:On February 01 2014 17:23 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 17:18 SeventhPride wrote:On February 01 2014 17:08 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Even as a Zerg I don't support, nor do I understand the hydralisk buff. Seems like another example of Blizzard messing with something that isn't broken again... ugh On February 01 2014 16:48 ZenithM wrote:
I don't know Kim... fixed Though I agree with you,You can't deny we need better anti-air though. And I meant a buff in strictly anti air I don't agree, your anti-air is pretty powerful overall. Fungal + corrupter fleet + spores and vipers for abduct pretty much make it impossible for a protoss air army to ever engage zerg without dying. Swarm hosts make it so templar support for storms is non-viable, and zerg just abducts the protoss to death. It's a really boring and lame game, but if you buff other anti-air, you're just going to see zerg waltz in and kill toss pretty much every time. Think about what you said, you have just listed a need for infestation pit,spire and hive just to defend against a airtoss. Well for terran its barracks and toss a cyber core, plus add in the fact that marines and stalkers scale well from early-mid-late game. What you listed for us is only available in mid game, plus hydras really really dont scale well. In the mid-game, hydra/infestor does very well. Zerg tech is easier to get than toss or terran tech is, you just make the one building and every hatch can make your tech. You only need that huge anti-air comp for the end game toss army. For the mid-game, hydra/infestor does fantastic vs. void rays. Earlier on, queens do extremely well. The matchup is quite balanced right now, I don't understand the complaints. You are assuming all zerg wants to do is defend. Early on , Queens cant do shit with how slow they walk. Why shouldnt zerg have a viable attack AND defend option early on? And please, hydra/infestor get shit on well by protosses who have the brains to build colossus. Um, if the toss is going colossus, why do you need anti-air? I was assuming you were referring to dealing with heavy void ray builds, but those don't seem to be nearly as strong these days, and zergs are crushing them left and right in proleague and GSL. Zergs have plenty of viable attacks, ranging from roach/hydra aggression to the leenock style heavy upgrade ling/ultra busts etc., or even the mutalisk switches and pressure. Read my edit, i wasn't finished. And your "viable attacks" are only avaliable during midgame-late game. If roach hydra is used in early game, its an all in. And not a protoss "all in" but a all in that if failed means a lost.
Protoss all-ins are absolutely all-in. That's the freaking definition. Putting quotation marks around it doesn't change the fact. If it's not all-in, then it's just pressure. If it's all-in, then when it fails you lose. If I do an 8 gate all-in off 2 bases and you hold it without losing a base or drones, I just plain die. That's an all-in. If I do a 4 gate +1 pressure and fail to snipe your third, I'm behind, but not dead, it was not an all-in.
You have other attacks too you can do at all phases of the game. Plenty of protoss losses occur to mass speedling all-ins busting the wall, or big mutalisk switches that flat out kill nexii.
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On February 01 2014 17:33 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 17:30 SeventhPride wrote:On February 01 2014 17:27 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 17:25 SeventhPride wrote:On February 01 2014 17:23 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 17:18 SeventhPride wrote:On February 01 2014 17:08 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Even as a Zerg I don't support, nor do I understand the hydralisk buff. Seems like another example of Blizzard messing with something that isn't broken again... ugh On February 01 2014 16:48 ZenithM wrote:
I don't know Kim... fixed Though I agree with you,You can't deny we need better anti-air though. And I meant a buff in strictly anti air I don't agree, your anti-air is pretty powerful overall. Fungal + corrupter fleet + spores and vipers for abduct pretty much make it impossible for a protoss air army to ever engage zerg without dying. Swarm hosts make it so templar support for storms is non-viable, and zerg just abducts the protoss to death. It's a really boring and lame game, but if you buff other anti-air, you're just going to see zerg waltz in and kill toss pretty much every time. Think about what you said, you have just listed a need for infestation pit,spire and hive just to defend against a airtoss. Well for terran its barracks and toss a cyber core, plus add in the fact that marines and stalkers scale well from early-mid-late game. What you listed for us is only available in mid game, plus hydras really really dont scale well. In the mid-game, hydra/infestor does very well. Zerg tech is easier to get than toss or terran tech is, you just make the one building and every hatch can make your tech. You only need that huge anti-air comp for the end game toss army. For the mid-game, hydra/infestor does fantastic vs. void rays. Earlier on, queens do extremely well. The matchup is quite balanced right now, I don't understand the complaints. You are assuming all zerg wants to do is defend. Early on , Queens cant do shit with how slow they walk. Why shouldnt zerg have a viable attack AND defend option early on? And please, hydra/infestor get shit on well by protosses who have the brains to build colossus. If you want to attack any time you feel like it and have it always work, I don't know what to tell you. Protoss should absolutely have ways of defending aggression from zerg, and it has to be some kind of tech because zerg production is massive in comparison to protoss production.
yes but not to the point that a toss player can just go "oh he is attacking me, PHOTONNNNNNNN or FORCEFIELDDDDD". But rather if a toss defends he must SCOUT for it. Terran have to scout, zergs have to scout, why shouldnt toss?Toss is stupid to play against because of this mechanic where it can defend or attack in an instant if it choose to by warp ins.
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ghost energy , hydra cost and tempest passive are all really bad ideas.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 01 2014 17:39 SeventhPride wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 17:33 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 17:30 SeventhPride wrote:On February 01 2014 17:27 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 17:25 SeventhPride wrote:On February 01 2014 17:23 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 17:18 SeventhPride wrote:On February 01 2014 17:08 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Even as a Zerg I don't support, nor do I understand the hydralisk buff. Seems like another example of Blizzard messing with something that isn't broken again... ugh On February 01 2014 16:48 ZenithM wrote:
I don't know Kim... fixed Though I agree with you,You can't deny we need better anti-air though. And I meant a buff in strictly anti air I don't agree, your anti-air is pretty powerful overall. Fungal + corrupter fleet + spores and vipers for abduct pretty much make it impossible for a protoss air army to ever engage zerg without dying. Swarm hosts make it so templar support for storms is non-viable, and zerg just abducts the protoss to death. It's a really boring and lame game, but if you buff other anti-air, you're just going to see zerg waltz in and kill toss pretty much every time. Think about what you said, you have just listed a need for infestation pit,spire and hive just to defend against a airtoss. Well for terran its barracks and toss a cyber core, plus add in the fact that marines and stalkers scale well from early-mid-late game. What you listed for us is only available in mid game, plus hydras really really dont scale well. In the mid-game, hydra/infestor does very well. Zerg tech is easier to get than toss or terran tech is, you just make the one building and every hatch can make your tech. You only need that huge anti-air comp for the end game toss army. For the mid-game, hydra/infestor does fantastic vs. void rays. Earlier on, queens do extremely well. The matchup is quite balanced right now, I don't understand the complaints. You are assuming all zerg wants to do is defend. Early on , Queens cant do shit with how slow they walk. Why shouldnt zerg have a viable attack AND defend option early on? And please, hydra/infestor get shit on well by protosses who have the brains to build colossus. If you want to attack any time you feel like it and have it always work, I don't know what to tell you. Protoss should absolutely have ways of defending aggression from zerg, and it has to be some kind of tech because zerg production is massive in comparison to protoss production. yes but not to the point that a toss player can just go "oh he is attacking me, PHOTONNNNNNNN or FORCEFIELDDDDD". But rather if a toss defends he must SCOUT for it. Terran have to scout, zergs have to scout, why shouldnt toss?Toss is stupid to play against because of this mechanic where it can defend or attack in an instant if it choose to by warp ins.
So now your complaint isn't the fact that zerg can't attack, but actually the way protoss defends those attacks. So to get to the root of your complaint, it's that forcefields exist. Photon Overcharge is pretty bad overall vs. most zerg attacks, roaches have too much hp for it to be particularly helpful, mutas just go to a different base, and there are too many lings for it to kill them. It's only stalling with forcefields that lets the damage from it add up to anything significant.
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[/QUOTE]Protoss all-ins are absolutely all-in. That's the freaking definition. Putting quotation marks around it doesn't change the fact. If it's not all-in, then it's just pressure. If it's all-in, then when it fails you lose. If I do an 8 gate all-in off 2 bases and you hold it without losing a base or drones, I just plain die. That's an all-in. If I do a 4 gate +1 pressure and fail to snipe your third, I'm behind, but not dead, it was not an all-in.
You have other attacks too you can do at all phases of the game. Plenty of protoss losses occur to mass speedling all-ins busting the wall, or big mutalisk switches that flat out kill nexii.[/QUOTE]
You havent seen gsl games where a toss "all ins" but ends up not being an all in? Have you not listen to casters? The problem with toss is its so easy to come back after a supposed "all in" with the photon overcharge and forcefields. 3 sentries can ff a ramp until the game ends. Zergs LOSE because of the counter attacks that happened after an all in and they can't defend it. Toss CAN. This is what terrans are whining about now, and if terrans with their mules are complaining about toss come backs after all ins then you know shit is going down.
So stop saying zergs all ins are like toss cause we cant do shit about counters after we failed an all in.
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They honestly should make MSC be extremely slow away from a nexus similar to the queen on creep. That unit should 100% be extremely risky to use offensively.
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EPT
