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On February 01 2014 10:58 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote:
I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S + Show Spoiler +That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change. Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while. On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning...
Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink.
This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO...
Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about.
I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2?
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On February 01 2014 16:35 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 16:30 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote:
I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)... I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way. The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player... Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels. If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do: 1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game. 2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp. This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base. This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance. 3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers. What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game." It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory. This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them. 4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price. It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base. That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins. 5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense. 6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss. This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss. The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever. Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg. Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP. p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change. Let me get this straight: you think for PvT to have balance, we need no less than 3 protoss nerfs and 3 terran buffs, combined. Where did you get the idea that the matchup is so imbalanced that we need this many changes all at once? Had it occurred to you that giving terran more viable options in the matchup is a substantial power increase? If you make mech just as strong as bio, there will be maps where mech is stronger than bio, and terrans will wind up being more powerful on those maps as a result of the versatility. It's pretty clear that you haven't put any serious thought into actually balancing anything, your bias is showing. It''s Avilo tho. If the guy is know for something it is being a completely dilusional balance whiner..... Point is, giving Terran one extra option DOES make them way stronger - just like MSC Oracle and blink force certain adaptations to builds, but Avilo doesn''t seem to recognise that. Terran is a really 'dangerous' race in that it becomes VERY dangerous really easilly, because the units are fast, marines are versatile and the race has always been aggressive. I get that buffing Terran is really hard, I highly disagree with the removal of upgrades as is (I mean, we've lost like 5/6 upgrades already, that's such a waste. More and expensive upgrades make tech paths take more dedication, which I like. Removing them all just makes the game more straightforward and less stylistic.
You can say it makes it less stylistic based off of variety of strategy... but truth is games would be heading towards actual display of skill rather than an auto loss to one of the many different strategies.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 01 2014 16:38 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 10:58 Musicus wrote:On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote:
I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S + Show Spoiler +That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change. Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while. On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first. Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning... Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink. This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO... Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about. I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2?
I've tried all sorts of builds I want to work in this game, many of them don't work. I don't come in here whining about not being able to go only stargate units in PvT or only make units out of the robotics facility. I don't recall zergs complaining about not being able to reliably go ONLY zerglings in ZvP. Some things work, some don't. Just because it's your preferred playstyle does not mean it must be balanced against the entire enemy race. I don't get to go carriers, as much as I want that to be viable.
I get that you like mech and want to play it, and that it's fun for you. However, it is not a balance issue that mech does not work vs. protoss. It is gripe you have about the way the race works yes, but complaining that it is unfair that mech doesn't work is like protoss complaining that mass carriers doesn't work.
If you want mech to work vs. protoss with approximately the same strength as bio, either bio needs to be weakened a little, or protoss needs to be strengthened a little somewhere else. You cannot add options to one race without increasing its strength: the very option existing is a buff.
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Oracles at the top level disappear indeed. The reason is what you don''t seem to recognise:
Terrans have adapted their builds to hold oracles easilly. BUT that also means builds cannot be aggressive because you need marines at home. That also means you need to invest in defence infrastructure before you can even know whether you need it or not. The mere precence of the oracle forces adaptations -> just as the Tempest completely disables the Battle Cruiser from really working without mass raven support.
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The reason why oracle needs to be nerfed back IMO is because it did not make sense to buff it... the reason why its strong is because T has to prepare for that while keeping in mind that he might be facing a blink all in instead.
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On February 01 2014 16:35 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 16:30 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote:
I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)... I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way. The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player... Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels. If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do: 1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game. 2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp. This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base. This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance. 3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers. What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game." It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory. This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them. 4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price. It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base. That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins. 5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense. 6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss. This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss. The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever. Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg. Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP. p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change. Let me get this straight: you think for PvT to have balance, we need no less than 3 protoss nerfs and 3 terran buffs, combined. Where did you get the idea that the matchup is so imbalanced that we need this many changes all at once? Had it occurred to you that giving terran more viable options in the matchup is a substantial power increase? If you make mech just as strong as bio, there will be maps where mech is stronger than bio, and terrans will wind up being more powerful on those maps as a result of the versatility. It's pretty clear that you haven't put any serious thought into actually balancing anything, your bias is showing. It''s Avilo tho. If the guy is know for something it is being a completely dilusional balance whiner..... Point is, giving Terran one extra option DOES make them way stronger - just like MSC Oracle and blink force certain adaptations to builds, but Avilo doesn''t seem to recognise that. Terran is a really 'dangerous' race in that it becomes VERY dangerous really easilly, because the units are fast, marines are versatile and the race has always been aggressive. I get that buffing Terran is really hard, I highly disagree with the removal of upgrades as is (I mean, we've lost like 5/6 upgrades already, that's such a waste. More and expensive upgrades make tech paths take more dedication, which I like. Removing them all just makes the game more straightforward and less stylistic.
LoL. "Its Avilo"... Nice way to discuss,huh? Who are you man? Mvp or maybe Polt with a name for TL? Avilo at least try mech. He is not a balance whiner. He is the only man saying the real f.... true about SC2. None of the Progamers dare to even say what are they really thinking and you disrespect him so easily...We are talking about mech and you are saying "marines are dangerous and quick." COME ON, PLEASE, REALLY??? WTF? Can you show me a single VOD or BO when Terran is aggressive in early game TvP¿???? When was the last time Protoss Progamer lost PvT at 7:30 min mark???? WHEN?
Blink all in forcé "certain adaptations"??? Have you ever played Terran, please? Come on, try it man and let me see your face, with 4 bunkers in Deadalus or Heavy Rain, stim,shields,medivacs and+1 at 7 mins while the blink all in is at your ramp.3 mins later you go out and discover the Protoss got doublé forge,robo,Nexus mining and fully saturated in the natural, you try to drop WHILE attacking the natural, the PO is casted on both nexi and you need to go home, trying to expand to catch the Protoss finishig his Storm and 3-3 at 14 min.After all this I wanna see you winning without pulling SCVs OR going MECH hehe. Please,THINK BEFORE YOU WRITE
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+ Show Spoiler +On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote:
I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)... I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way. The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player... Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels. If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do: 1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game. 2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp. This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base. This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance. 3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers. What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game." It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory. This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them. 4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price. It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base. That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins. 5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense. 6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss. This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss. The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever. Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg. Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP. p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Sooo...Buff terran nerf protoss?
EDIT: Oh its avilo. Well moving on![spoiler]
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United States7483 Posts
On February 01 2014 16:48 SC2Toastie wrote:
Oracles at the top level disappear indeed. The reason is what you don''t seem to recognise:
Terrans have adapted their builds to hold oracles easilly. BUT that also means builds cannot be aggressive because you need marines at home. That also means you need to invest in defence infrastructure before you can even know whether you need it or not. The mere precence of the oracle forces adaptations -> just as the Tempest completely disables the Battle Cruiser from really working without mass raven support.
Protoss builds have been changed to adapt to many things terrans can do as well. Old protoss builds like the 1 colossus, take a third, go straight to templar is completely dead. Protoss can't have map control when medivacs are coming out around the 10 minute mark, no matter how badly we want it. There are times when toss can't be aggressive, and there are times when terran can't be aggressive. If terran can be aggressive whenever it wants regardless of what build toss attempts, do you really think that would be reasonable or fair?
The safest build that exists in PvT for Protoss is the Rain build, where he invests in a freaking cannon early on in his mineral lines in case of mine drops, even without knowing whether one is coming or not. If you play greedier than that, you can outright die to mines. Is it unfair that protoss has to account for detection early on in the game or else risk dying to mines? Cloak banshees disappeared because protoss is forced to open detection almost every game. Hero (CJ entus one) died in a proleague match a short while ago vs. Maru because he skipped detection and got killed by cloak banshees. So Protoss adapted to those threats and now opens robo every game, or oracle (which also detects). If nothing cloaked shows up, oh well, we make do with what we have.
It's not simply terran who is forced to do certain things because of their opponent's options. You make it sound like protoss can do literally anything it wants at any time, that is absolutely not the case.
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Dude investing a cannon and being completely safe is as different from pressure from an oracle or blink all in as the earth to the moon.
the thing is... protoss can get ANY fucking tech... any thing literally. Can completely dictate terrans timings with their offensive capabilities. and T risks too much shit with that type of thinking
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On February 01 2014 13:38 JSK wrote:
I am a PROTOSS - and I am FINE with the Protoss nerfs. I am FINE with leaving the Tempest buff OUT.
I am NOT fine with buffing hydralisks. Why does Zerg need to be buffed? Wtf?
Because zergs anti-air is shit? But i do agree the buff is too much. Just buffing hydras survivability OR anti air attack would be enough.
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On February 01 2014 16:33 Tossim111 wrote:
For example, the role of the mothership core was to be a defensive tool early game, as well as give protoss map presence in the mid to late game. Its currently being abused as an offensive unit early game with the support of stalkers.
Huh? Since its final iteration in the Beta it was meant to be an all-around support tool for Protoss. Early versions of the MSC (tethered to the Nexus) were more defensive, but they changed it up to make it into a unit and thereby to give Protoss more flexibility. This it has done. The MSC is a fine unit. There is an issue with spells like Time Warp, and maybe an issue with the MSC's vision. But, other than that, it is a great addition to Protoss and HOTS.
Edit/ Played one game on the test map so far. For some reason my Terran opponent did not make ghosts. Oh well. Back to it.
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By Blizzards standards it looks decent.
Otherwise, buffing mech through a bio unit is stupid and lazy, and trying to fix a terrible siege unit/tactic by buffing another no skill siege unit, what can go wrong?
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On February 01 2014 16:36 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 16:33 Tossim111 wrote:
Well recent results and from his experience of course. He listed his reasoning for each, and they all seem reasonable.
I thought Tempest rushing was a troll build, but it puts on alot of pressure on the T once the Tempest numbers go to 4; holding against this buff TvP will be really difficult. Recent results are inconclusive. Aligulac put matchup results at around 51% Protoss, 49% terran for the last month. GSL code A seemed to favor toss quite a bit, but proleague seemed to favor terran quite a bit. It seems like it's possible that protoss might have a slight overall advantage in the matchup at the moment, but it's absolutely not a huge one. I agree with his msc vision range nerf, that's about it. Oracle openings at the top levels seem like they're mostly disappearing, and when they do happen, don't get very many kills, so I don't understand the complaint around that. It seems like he just wants his ideal mech build to be just as strong as every other build option for terran, but that is absolutely NOT a legitimate complaint about balance. He also tends to open greedy and go into a really fast 3 base mech build: it's no wonder he dies to protoss aggression. If you play greedy, you sometimes get punished for it.
Don't parrot numbers, watch the games. The Proleague games have Protoss coming out against some of the best Terrans, playing ridiculous off-the-wall proxy strategies incompetently and losing, and this is somehow evidence that Protoss is beatable?
Terrans have to scout EVERYTHING that Protoss do with Reapers. Hmm... what does that remind me of? Maybe how Protoss were forced to go into Robo tech to get Observers in WOL? Which everybody said was unfair and stupid? So one of the goals of HOTS was to give Protoss more options through the MSC and Oracle? The point of an expansion isn't to release a bunch of new problems that need another expansion to get fixed, it's to make the game better than it was. At this rate, LOTV will fix Terran options but make Zerg unplayable, and then OOPS, no more expansions to fix Zerg, but don't worry, SC3 is coming Soon.
And even if Terrans scout, they can still misread. Look at the Squirtle vs. SkyHigh games in Code A, Wolf, the caster, couldn't tell if Squirtle was going for a Stalker All In (macro opening), a Stalker fake out macro opening, or a DT all in (macro opening). If a caster can't tell, how's a player supposed to? Scan every fifteen seconds? Keep making Reapers nonstop? Yeah, Squirtle's known for his BOs and this game was an extreme example, but it is an example of a widespread phenomenon. Terran is completely on the backfoot and even a perfect reaction usually results in Terran being even with Protoss, as opposed to coming out ahead.
Or watch the Inno vs. Zest series. My favorite moment was when Wolf shouted out "Innovation's micro is unbelievable!" and half a second later Zest put a Time Warp down on all of Innovation's units, completely denying Innovation's attempts to win that game using mechanical genius.
If you come away from all of that thinking the races are "almost balanced," you're freaking blind. And if you think they equally reward skill, which isn't a balance issue but unfortunately the balance team is also in charge of game design so the two issues get pretty conflated... see above.
edit: common consensus at end of WOL was that Terran was favored in early/mid and Protoss was favored in late game. So Protoss got Time Warp to help aggression/defense in the early/mid game (and Terrans got basically nothing, but whatever). Now imagine if instead of that happening, Terrans had gotten a spell on the Orbital Command that did the exact same thing and took the Armory to unlock.
Imagine if your Protoss army became 50% slower in a huge AOE... like, say, the area in between the bio-ball and the Zealots trying to charge in to engage them. Would you think that was a pretty cool spell that rewarded skill from both sides? Just curious.
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On February 01 2014 16:44 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 16:38 Dvriel wrote:On February 01 2014 10:58 Musicus wrote:On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote:
I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S + Show Spoiler +That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change. Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while. On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first. Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning... Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink. This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO... Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about. I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2? I've tried all sorts of builds I want to work in this game, many of them don't work. I don't come in here whining about not being able to go only stargate units in PvT or only make units out of the robotics facility. I don't recall zergs complaining about not being able to reliably go ONLY zerglings in ZvP. Some things work, some don't. Just because it's your preferred playstyle does not mean it must be balanced against the entire enemy race. I don't get to go carriers, as much as I want that to be viable. I get that you like mech and want to play it, and that it's fun for you. However, it is not a balance issue that mech does not work vs. protoss. It is gripe you have about the way the race works yes, but complaining that it is unfair that mech doesn't work is like protoss complaining that mass carriers doesn't work. If you want mech to work vs. protoss with approximately the same strength as bio, either bio needs to be weakened a little, or protoss needs to be strengthened a little somewhere else. You cannot add options to one race without increasing its strength: the very option existing is a buff.
Well, going only Stargate units in PvT is absolutely viable if the Terran plays mech. Opening with oracles,into voids or Phoenix with 2 base PO is posible. If the T goes BIO, you are dead, but this doesn mean you can compair going full Stargate,full Robo or Mass lings with going mech. MECH are Wm,Hellions,Hellbats,Tanks,Thors,Banshees,Ravens and even BCs or Medivacs(I use then to drop WM or HEllbats). Are you really gonna tell me all this units are the same as "mass lings"? Mech is a Style. You cant go mass carriers vs BIO Terran, but they shred everything if the Terran goes mech and allows you to mass them.
Actually Protoss anti mech options are so many and so strong that its almost imposible to win and you only need to amove your Immortal/Archon/Collosi army into 15 presieged tanks. You call this "NORMAL"?
The entire Protoss army for SC2 is designed to shut mech pretty hard: Charge to get quickly closer to siege lines.Blink doing the same.Collosi helping from behind,IMMORTALS shredding everything. Archons,Oracles,Void Rays...You need more?
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On February 01 2014 16:44 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 16:38 Dvriel wrote:On February 01 2014 10:58 Musicus wrote:On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote:
I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S + Show Spoiler +That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change. Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while. On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first. Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning... Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink. This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO... Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about. I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2? I've tried all sorts of builds I want to work in this game, many of them don't work. I don't come in here whining about not being able to go only stargate units in PvT or only make units out of the robotics facility. I don't recall zergs complaining about not being able to reliably go ONLY zerglings in ZvP. Some things work, some don't. Just because it's your preferred playstyle does not mean it must be balanced against the entire enemy race. I don't get to go carriers, as much as I want that to be viable. I get that you like mech and want to play it, and that it's fun for you. However, it is not a balance issue that mech does not work vs. protoss. It is gripe you have about the way the race works yes, but complaining that it is unfair that mech doesn't work is like protoss complaining that mass carriers doesn't work. If you want mech to work vs. protoss with approximately the same strength as bio, either bio needs to be weakened a little, or protoss needs to be strengthened a little somewhere else. You cannot add options to one race without increasing its strength: the very option existing is a buff.
Stopped reading at the bolded part. Cant believe people still dont get it that going Bio OR Mech(with support from Starport) is a unique thing to the Terran race just like Zerg can mass/swarm Units and Protoss has few but strong Units. Obviously never played BW.
LoL. "Its Avilo"... Nice way to discuss,huh? Who are you man? Mvp or maybe Polt with a name for TL? Avilo at least try mech. He is not a balance whiner. He is the only man saying the real f.... true about SC2. None of the Progamers dare to even say what are they really thinking and you disrespect him so easily...We are talking about mech and you are saying "marines are dangerous and quick." COME ON, PLEASE, REALLY??? WTF? Can you show me a single VOD or BO when Terran is aggressive in early game TvP¿???? When was the last time Protoss Progamer lost PvT at 7:30 min mark???? WHEN?
Blink all in forcé "certain adaptations"??? Have you ever played Terran, please? Come on, try it man and let me see your face, with 4 bunkers in Deadalus or Heavy Rain, stim,shields,medivacs and+1 at 7 mins while the blink all in is at your ramp.3 mins later you go out and discover the Protoss got doublé forge,robo,Nexus mining and fully saturated in the natural, you try to drop WHILE attacking the natural, the PO is casted on both nexi and you need to go home, trying to expand to catch the Protoss finishig his Storm and 3-3 at 14 min.After all this I wanna see you winning without pulling SCVs OR going MECH hehe. Please,THINK BEFORE YOU WRITE
I fully agree here. Sad thing is when you posted that the guy below you just made the same useless "lol its avilo" argument. He may overreact sometimes but some things are really clever and true.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 01 2014 16:58 Tossim111 wrote:
Dude investing a cannon and being completely safe is as different from pressure from an oracle or blink all in as the earth to the moon.
It's not like he makes only one cannon and no other units, he rushes out 3 stalkers to go with it, scouts, and is not aggressive at all whatsoever. The build makes a lot of sacrifices to guarantee he doesn't die, and he winds up behind frequently. The complaint was that terran had to make structures like an engi bay early on to be safe, so does protoss if he doesn't want to risk a straight up loss to certain builds.
It goes both ways, but most terran players don't bother to think about what it might be like from the protoss side of things, as most protoss don't consider what its like from the terran side of things. If you want to discuss balance, you need to do both. The complaints I've read in here are not really legitimate complaints. "I can't be aggressive early game" isn't a balance complaint, it's a "I wish this matchup worked differently and I could do the style I wanted to".
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United States7483 Posts
On February 01 2014 17:01 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 16:44 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 16:38 Dvriel wrote:On February 01 2014 10:58 Musicus wrote:On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote:
I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S + Show Spoiler +That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change. Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while. On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first. Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning... Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink. This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO... Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about. I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2? I've tried all sorts of builds I want to work in this game, many of them don't work. I don't come in here whining about not being able to go only stargate units in PvT or only make units out of the robotics facility. I don't recall zergs complaining about not being able to reliably go ONLY zerglings in ZvP. Some things work, some don't. Just because it's your preferred playstyle does not mean it must be balanced against the entire enemy race. I don't get to go carriers, as much as I want that to be viable. I get that you like mech and want to play it, and that it's fun for you. However, it is not a balance issue that mech does not work vs. protoss. It is gripe you have about the way the race works yes, but complaining that it is unfair that mech doesn't work is like protoss complaining that mass carriers doesn't work. If you want mech to work vs. protoss with approximately the same strength as bio, either bio needs to be weakened a little, or protoss needs to be strengthened a little somewhere else. You cannot add options to one race without increasing its strength: the very option existing is a buff. Well, going only Stargate units in PvT is absolutely viable if the Terran plays mech. Opening with oracles,into voids or Phoenix with 2 base PO is posible. If the T goes BIO, you are dead, but this doesn mean you can compair going full Stargate,full Robo or Mass lings with going mech. MECH are Wm,Hellions,Hellbats,Tanks,Thors,Banshees,Ravens and even BCs or Medivacs(I use then to drop WM or HEllbats). Are you really gonna tell me all this units are the same as "mass lings"? Mech is a Style. You cant go mass carriers vs BIO Terran, but they shred everything if the Terran goes mech and allows you to mass them. Actually Protoss anti mech options are so many and so strong that its almost imposible to win and you only need to amove your Immortal/Archon/Collosi army into 15 presieged tanks. You call this "NORMAL"? The entire Protoss army for SC2 is designed to shut mech pretty hard: Charge to get quickly closer to siege lines.Blink doing the same.Collosi helping from behind,IMMORTALS shredding everything. Archons,Oracles,Void Rays...You need more?
So what you're saying is, if the terran voluntarily lets me do it, I can do whatever I want? Thanks for the tautology.
On February 01 2014 17:02 Tresher wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 16:44 Whitewing wrote:On February 01 2014 16:38 Dvriel wrote:On February 01 2014 10:58 Musicus wrote:On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote:
I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S + Show Spoiler +That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change. Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while. On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first. Have you ever been trying to go mech in TvP? If you did, would you be so kind and post your BO? I suppose, you never try it, because you have no idea how difficult is to play TvP bio, and how almost imposible is the TvP mech. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning... Personally tried opening 1 raxFE into 3rax and the Reaper Expand into 3rax to be able to defend the blink or any kind of Ps allin while trying to transition into mech around min 10. Well, if you try it, you will discover how hard is and how behind you can be if at the mark of 10 mins there is no stim,shields or medivacs to defend any 2 base Ps all in.Tanks do nothing against Protoss and ghosts are needed to try EMP the deathball while surviving the push. Warprpism harras is also pretty difficult to defend and you need sensor towers and,turrets and ebays to be able to defend DTs or blink. This is not all: Protoss can perfectly scout you with Observer,MScore or the Halucination Phoenix,but anyways there is nothing to hide hehe.They can even fake perfcectly an all in,while expanding and you as Terran should build bunkers and lot of units while they are teching for free, awaiting for you with their "one click button defend it all" as the PO... Try mech in TvP and show us.People like Avilo, at least try it and know what is talking about. I am tired of FOUR years of BIO, BIO, BIO every single TvP. NOw its even needed in TvZ...WTF? Why continue playing T or watching SC2? I've tried all sorts of builds I want to work in this game, many of them don't work. I don't come in here whining about not being able to go only stargate units in PvT or only make units out of the robotics facility. I don't recall zergs complaining about not being able to reliably go ONLY zerglings in ZvP. Some things work, some don't. Just because it's your preferred playstyle does not mean it must be balanced against the entire enemy race. I don't get to go carriers, as much as I want that to be viable. I get that you like mech and want to play it, and that it's fun for you. However, it is not a balance issue that mech does not work vs. protoss. It is gripe you have about the way the race works yes, but complaining that it is unfair that mech doesn't work is like protoss complaining that mass carriers doesn't work. If you want mech to work vs. protoss with approximately the same strength as bio, either bio needs to be weakened a little, or protoss needs to be strengthened a little somewhere else. You cannot add options to one race without increasing its strength: the very option existing is a buff. Stopped reading at the bolded part. Cant believe people still dont get it that going Bio OR Mech is a unique thing to the Terran race just like Zerg can mass/swarm Units and Protoss has few but strong Units. Obviously never played BW. Show nested quote +LoL. "Its Avilo"... Nice way to discuss,huh? Who are you man? Mvp or maybe Polt with a name for TL? Avilo at least try mech. He is not a balance whiner. He is the only man saying the real f.... true about SC2. None of the Progamers dare to even say what are they really thinking and you disrespect him so easily...We are talking about mech and you are saying "marines are dangerous and quick." COME ON, PLEASE, REALLY??? WTF? Can you show me a single VOD or BO when Terran is aggressive in early game TvP¿???? When was the last time Protoss Progamer lost PvT at 7:30 min mark???? WHEN?
Blink all in forcé "certain adaptations"??? Have you ever played Terran, please? Come on, try it man and let me see your face, with 4 bunkers in Deadalus or Heavy Rain, stim,shields,medivacs and+1 at 7 mins while the blink all in is at your ramp.3 mins later you go out and discover the Protoss got doublé forge,robo,Nexus mining and fully saturated in the natural, you try to drop WHILE attacking the natural, the PO is casted on both nexi and you need to go home, trying to expand to catch the Protoss finishig his Storm and 3-3 at 14 min.After all this I wanna see you winning without pulling SCVs OR going MECH hehe. Please,THINK BEFORE YOU WRITE I fully agree here. Sad thing is when you posted that the guy below you just made the same useless "lol its avilo" argument. He may overreact sometimes but some things are really clever and true.
So you stopped reading and didn't bother to finish the rest of the argument. That's like someone saying "The world isn't flat, it's round, let me explain how we know..." And you stop reading after "The world isn't flat" because it doesn't fit your preconceptions. It also isn't exactly very helpful to any sort of discussion to read 2 sentences and then declare "I don't agree, I'm not reading the rest." That adds absolutely nothing.
In BW, terran could not viably go bio in TvP except for some weird wonky all-in builds. It wasn't really a choice, the only matchup where bio was consistently viable for them was TvZ. It wasn't a choice then either. If you went bio in TvP, you pretty much lost the moment reavers hit the field.
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Even as a Zerg I don't support, nor do I understand the hydralisk buff. Seems like another example of Blizzard messing with something that isn't broken again...
ugh
On February 01 2014 16:48 ZenithM wrote:
I don't know Kim...
fixed
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On February 01 2014 16:53 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 16:48 SC2Toastie wrote:
Oracles at the top level disappear indeed. The reason is what you don''t seem to recognise:
Terrans have adapted their builds to hold oracles easilly. BUT that also means builds cannot be aggressive because you need marines at home. That also means you need to invest in defence infrastructure before you can even know whether you need it or not. The mere precence of the oracle forces adaptations -> just as the Tempest completely disables the Battle Cruiser from really working without mass raven support. Protoss builds have been changed to adapt to many things terrans can do as well. Old protoss builds like the 1 colossus, take a third, go straight to templar is completely dead. Protoss can't have map control when medivacs are coming out around the 10 minute mark, no matter how badly we want it. There are times when toss can't be aggressive, and there are times when terran can't be aggressive. If terran can be aggressive whenever it wants regardless of what build toss attempts, do you really think that would be reasonable or fair? The safest build that exists in PvT for Protoss is the Rain build, where he invests in a freaking cannon early on in his mineral lines in case of mine drops, even without knowing whether one is coming or not. If you play greedier than that, you can outright die to mines. Is it unfair that protoss has to account for detection early on in the game or else risk dying to mines? Cloak banshees disappeared because protoss is forced to open detection almost every game. Hero (CJ entus one) died in a proleague match a short while ago vs. Maru because he skipped detection and got killed by cloak banshees. So Protoss adapted to those threats and now opens robo every game, or oracle (which also detects). If nothing cloaked shows up, oh well, we make do with what we have. It's not simply terran who is forced to do certain things because of their opponent's options. You make it sound like protoss can do literally anything it wants at any time, that is absolutely not the case.
Banshee did not disappear because of Protoss going for detection every game. They are gone because of the 13 ranged Planetary NExus,man. You are affraind of WM drops? How many PvTs end before 10 mins with Terran win? Oh, one game in the last two years? Really?Oracle not only detecs, but also can kill a mínimum of FOUR workers and escape without dying,whle able to detect home and kill the WM.The WM drop means the T is going 1-1-1 and this is only one of the two builds Terran can go vs P.Now lets see how many does P got??? Terran are able to be aggressive ONLY when Medivacs are out and if their banshee or WM drop does not do enough damage, they got miles behind because of the investment.Protoss can Oracle,DT w/o Warp Prism and blink and still can expand.The difference is that Protoss can be aggerssive from the minute 4 sending a Zealot,MScore Stalker poke while Terran cant even rsik to go up the ramp...
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