On February 01 2014 10:37 Die4Ever wrote: Ok I wanna see some sick tempest rushes now lol. I still think they should've given bonus damage vs buildings to carriers instead of tempests.
That might actually be plausible. Seen something like this happen to MMA recently I think by some player named Has, if I'm not mistaken. It was TLOwnged dude. I think MMA opened reactor rax into fast starport. At this point I'm willing to just give up on ever winning a standard TvP again so long as I don't have to sit through an hour long protoss deathball vs the great wall of zerg static defense.
But the hydra change will straight up just break the fucking game. I'm not sure in what world that isn't the most obvious thing ever.
Hydralisks are pretty bad, but why not buff their anti-air attack or something? 25 gas Hydras will bring about some absurdly powerful timings. Maybe it's the drastic change this game needs, but it will probably just be broken.
The Tempest change is so strange I don't think anyone really knows what effect(s) it will have; honestly I'd rather they just scrap the idea. Mothership Core nerfs are good, but I'd still like to see a nerf to the vision range as many others have said.
The Ghost change is a pretty big deal. The time it takes from when you drop the Ghost Academy to when the Ghosts are actually useful is so long that a lot of Terrans hold off on making them and sometimes don't make them at all. Any help Terrans can get vs late game Protoss I'm happy with.
Overall, pretty weird stuff. They seem to understand what's wrong to some extent, but the solutions they've come up with make very little sense to me. These are certainly not changes the community has been talking about, but we'll see.
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Blizzard said they want mech to be viable.
The Ghost change will not make mech viable.
Avilo is throwing out suggestions on how to make mech viable.
Problem?
So you have to revert the oracle speed, remove MSC vision range, revert the Dark Shrine cost and remove the ebay requirements for turrets to make mech viable in tvp?
I think his 5th and 6th point are solid suggestions, but the rest is just Avilo wanting to play mech every game, on every map without having to worry about anything.
Don't comment if you have no idea about the game...or do not understand the suggestions i made.
The MSC changes i put there have absolutely nothing to do with mech. The imbalance in TvP right now are early game all-ins and too many openings from Protoss while also having the MSC overcharge/timewarp being way too good.
The sight range change i put there helps to allow Terran players to hide information just as much as the Protoss currently can. It means Protoss cannot play as greedy as they want anymore, and there are possibilities that Terran can open with tech builds involving hellions/banshees again because Protoss won't have 100% information like they currently do.
Terrans cannot reasonably wall off vs Protoss right now solely because of the MSC allowing high ground vision with no risk. Removing/reducing sight range means Terrans can now wall off again - it changes the entire match-up if a Terran can now wall off their base instead of having the risk of 2 supply depots killed for free every game.
The turrets once again have nothing to do with mech, where are you getting this? Did you just read my username and then your brain thought "mech" with no critical thinking or analysis skills? I even explained what removing the ebay pre-req does - it allows Terrans a more reasonable defense when they scout a proxied stargate making oracles, or if they scout blink. Instead of just having a build order loss, you now would not auto lose the game.
The only two mech suggestions i made were about reducing armory price to brood war price of 100/50 which cuts exactly the same cost as the poorly thought out ghost mobius reactor change. And the +15 damage to shields to bring tanks back to 50 damage vs Protoss units.
None of my points were narrowminded in the slightest. They all are directed at the current imbalances that exist in TvP.
On February 01 2014 11:30 SidianTheBard wrote: If that hydra change goes through it's going to make ZvP timing attacks on Habitation Station even more difficult for the protoss. /cry
That's good though. Anything that can force Protoss to be less greedy in the mid game and actually have more than a handful of units that aren't sentries is a net positive for the stale, greedy meta they're currently playing.
How many people have complained about some of the changes like ghost energy change. if they can't think of an alternative, then at least just tells us about it and don't just go ahead with whatever bad idea that they have.
the hydra buff also needs some sort of change to compensate with the cost reduction, right now this is looking way too imbalanced
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Blizzard said they want mech to be viable.
The Ghost change will not make mech viable.
Avilo is throwing out suggestions on how to make mech viable.
Problem?
Who says Blizzard was intending for the Ghost change to make mech easier? I honestly think this change a response to Terrans not being able to counter attack into Protosses that have failed all-ins because they just go into Templar and sit with storm and get ahead.
On February 01 2014 11:30 SidianTheBard wrote: If that hydra change goes through it's going to make ZvP timing attacks on Habitation Station even more difficult for the protoss. /cry
That's good though. Anything that can force Protoss to be less greedy in the mid game and actually have more than a handful of units that aren't sentries is a net positive for the stale, greedy meta they're currently playing.
I agree in a sense, but with the Gold third, roach timings can already be extremely tough for Protoss to hold, but now if you throw in a bunch of hydras as well I feel there won't be much of a chance for them on that map.
We’ve also created a new Extension Mod for balance testing so that you can try your hand with these changes on maps other than Frost LE. Those of you who are interested in trying out the Extension Mod can use the following steps to get a game started:
You can start a game with the balance testing Extension Mod using the following steps: Navigate to Browse Maps on the Custom Games menu, Select a map and click the Create with Mod button in the lower right corner, Choose to sort by Blizzard Mods from the dropdown list at the top of the screen. Select the “Balance Test Mod” Extension from the list and then hit Create Game.
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Blizzard said they want mech to be viable.
The Ghost change will not make mech viable.
Avilo is throwing out suggestions on how to make mech viable.
Problem?
So you have to revert the oracle speed, remove MSC vision range, revert the Dark Shrine cost and remove the ebay requirements for turrets to make mech viable in tvp?
I think his 5th and 6th point are solid suggestions, but the rest is just Avilo wanting to play mech every game, on every map without having to worry about anything.
Don't comment if you have no idea about the game...or do not understand the suggestions i made.
The MSC changes i put there have absolutely nothing to do with mech. The imbalance in TvP right now are early game all-ins and too many openings from Protoss while also having the MSC overcharge/timewarp being way too good.
The sight range change i put there helps to allow Terran players to hide information just as much as the Protoss currently can. It means Protoss cannot play as greedy as they want anymore, and there are possibilities that Terran can open with tech builds involving hellions/banshees again because Protoss won't have 100% information like they currently do.
Terrans cannot reasonably wall off vs Protoss right now solely because of the MSC allowing high ground vision with no risk. Removing/reducing sight range means Terrans can now wall off again - it changes the entire match-up if a Terran can now wall off their base instead of having the risk of 2 supply depots killed for free every game.
The turrets once again have nothing to do with mech, where are you getting this? Did you just read my username and then your brain thought "mech" with no critical thinking or analysis skills? I even explained what removing the ebay pre-req does - it allows Terrans a more reasonable defense when they scout a proxied stargate making oracles, or if they scout blink. Instead of just having a build order loss, you now would not auto lose the game.
The only two mech suggestions i made were about reducing armory price to brood war price of 100/50 which cuts exactly the same cost as the poorly thought out ghost mobius reactor change. And the +15 damage to shields to bring tanks back to 50 damage vs Protoss units.
None of my points were narrowminded in the slightest. They all are directed at the current imbalances that exist in TvP.
I agree with reducing the sight range of the MSC, for all the points you listed. But when you primarily suggest "removing the sight range" I had to laugh. You also threw in the the Dark Shrine cost randomly. To me it just seems as if you just don't want to scout the map or the base several times. Zergs have to scout the whole map for proxy pylons every single game and keep checking with overlords. Also how often do you actually see an oracle do game ending damage in pro games. Sometimes sure, but not even often enough that I can remember the last game right now.
As I said, I agree with some points, but if you implemented everything, the opening phase would just be boring and terran way too safe. For example reducing the oracle speed and removing the ebay requirement for turrets, will outright kill oracle openings. One or the other maybe, but even that can be argued.
Edit: I apologize for wrongly implying that all your points were about mech.
For everyone throwing tons of more drastic changes on the wall, try to keep in mind that if there's one thing that HotS has shown us is that even minor nerfs/buffs can have drastic effects on balance when combined with shifts in the meta. Recall early in HotS when Protoss seemed very weak and were getting crushed by mutas, swarm hosts, Terran drop play, etc. The warp prism buff seemed minor and many people (including top level casters) thought it was a minor change that wouldn't really help, but combined with shifts to more harass-based play, Protoss regained a lot of power. The way to go is to make small targeted changes and see what happens. This is why avilo's posts where he wants multiple buffs to Terran at the same time as multiple nerfs to Protoss seem like severe overkill to me.
These seem like decent balance changes for the most part, except the hydralisks. I don't know how to explain this change at all, since hydras are already a very popular unit in all matches except ZvT, except that there's someone at Blizzard who has a free pass to make random major buffs to Zerg once a year.
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Blizzard said they want mech to be viable.
The Ghost change will not make mech viable.
Avilo is throwing out suggestions on how to make mech viable.
Problem?
So you have to revert the oracle speed, remove MSC vision range, revert the Dark Shrine cost and remove the ebay requirements for turrets to make mech viable in tvp?
I think his 5th and 6th point are solid suggestions, but the rest is just Avilo wanting to play mech every game, on every map without having to worry about anything.
Don't comment if you have no idea about the game...or do not understand the suggestions i made.
The MSC changes i put there have absolutely nothing to do with mech. The imbalance in TvP right now are early game all-ins and too many openings from Protoss while also having the MSC overcharge/timewarp being way too good.
The sight range change i put there helps to allow Terran players to hide information just as much as the Protoss currently can. It means Protoss cannot play as greedy as they want anymore, and there are possibilities that Terran can open with tech builds involving hellions/banshees again because Protoss won't have 100% information like they currently do.
Terrans cannot reasonably wall off vs Protoss right now solely because of the MSC allowing high ground vision with no risk. Removing/reducing sight range means Terrans can now wall off again - it changes the entire match-up if a Terran can now wall off their base instead of having the risk of 2 supply depots killed for free every game.
The turrets once again have nothing to do with mech, where are you getting this? Did you just read my username and then your brain thought "mech" with no critical thinking or analysis skills? I even explained what removing the ebay pre-req does - it allows Terrans a more reasonable defense when they scout a proxied stargate making oracles, or if they scout blink. Instead of just having a build order loss, you now would not auto lose the game.
The only two mech suggestions i made were about reducing armory price to brood war price of 100/50 which cuts exactly the same cost as the poorly thought out ghost mobius reactor change. And the +15 damage to shields to bring tanks back to 50 damage vs Protoss units.
None of my points were narrowminded in the slightest. They all are directed at the current imbalances that exist in TvP.
They should just revert the needless oracle buff and if they want to keep the MSC vision range then perhaps make sensor tower available w/o ebay.
no to hydralisks, no to hydralisks, no to hydralisks. It would completely destroy meching TvZ with hydra busts (would wreck any banshee openers and most macro mech games in general
On February 01 2014 11:41 Yakikorosu wrote: For everyone throwing tons of more drastic changes on the wall, try to keep in mind that if there's one thing that HotS has shown us is that even minor nerfs/buffs can have drastic effects on balance when combined with shifts in the meta. Recall early in HotS when Protoss seemed very weak and were getting crushed by mutas, swarm hosts, Terran drop play, etc. The warp prism buff seemed minor and many people (including top level casters) thought it was a minor change that wouldn't really help, but combined with shifts to more harass-based play, Protoss regained a lot of power. The way to go is to make small targeted changes and see what happens. This is why avilo's posts where he wants multiple buffs to Terran at the same time as multiple nerfs to Protoss seem like severe overkill to me.
These seem like decent balance changes for the most part, except the hydralisks. I don't know how to explain this change at all, since hydras are already a very popular unit in all matches except ZvT, except that there's someone at Blizzard who has a free pass to make random major buffs to Zerg once a year.
Yeah, narrow changes can have drastic effects. In my opinion the best change Blizzard made in HotS so far was increasing the Overseer speed with the upgrade. It made zvt way better.
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Blizzard said they want mech to be viable.
The Ghost change will not make mech viable.
Avilo is throwing out suggestions on how to make mech viable.
Problem?
So you have to revert the oracle speed, remove MSC vision range, revert the Dark Shrine cost and remove the ebay requirements for turrets to make mech viable in tvp?
I think his 5th and 6th point are solid suggestions, but the rest is just Avilo wanting to play mech every game, on every map without having to worry about anything.
Don't comment if you have no idea about the game...or do not understand the suggestions i made.
The MSC changes i put there have absolutely nothing to do with mech. The imbalance in TvP right now are early game all-ins and too many openings from Protoss while also having the MSC overcharge/timewarp being way too good.
The sight range change i put there helps to allow Terran players to hide information just as much as the Protoss currently can. It means Protoss cannot play as greedy as they want anymore, and there are possibilities that Terran can open with tech builds involving hellions/banshees again because Protoss won't have 100% information like they currently do.
Terrans cannot reasonably wall off vs Protoss right now solely because of the MSC allowing high ground vision with no risk. Removing/reducing sight range means Terrans can now wall off again - it changes the entire match-up if a Terran can now wall off their base instead of having the risk of 2 supply depots killed for free every game.
The turrets once again have nothing to do with mech, where are you getting this? Did you just read my username and then your brain thought "mech" with no critical thinking or analysis skills? I even explained what removing the ebay pre-req does - it allows Terrans a more reasonable defense when they scout a proxied stargate making oracles, or if they scout blink. Instead of just having a build order loss, you now would not auto lose the game.
The only two mech suggestions i made were about reducing armory price to brood war price of 100/50 which cuts exactly the same cost as the poorly thought out ghost mobius reactor change. And the +15 damage to shields to bring tanks back to 50 damage vs Protoss units.
None of my points were narrowminded in the slightest. They all are directed at the current imbalances that exist in TvP.
I agree with reducing the sight range of the MSC, for all the points you listed. But when you primarily suggest "removing the sight range" I had to laugh. You also threw in the the Dark Shrine cost randomly. To me it just seems as if you just don't want to scout the map or the base several times. Zergs have to scout the whole map for proxy pylons every single game and keep checking with overlords. Also how often do you actually see an oracle do game ending damage in pro games. Sometimes sure, but not even often enough that I can remember the last game right now.
As I said, I agree with some points, but if you implemented everything, the opening phase would just be boring and terran way too safe. For example reducing the oracle speed and removing the ebay requirement for turrets, will outright kill oracle openings. One or the other maybe, but even that can be argued.
Edit: I apologize for wrongly implying that all your points were about mech.
The diversity of the opening build lowers to what... just the reaper because terran can't be out on the map like zerg after they get speed? Why is it the terran has to scout the whole map quivering with fear of the unknown when the toss has stalkers at the front preventing rines and scv scouts and a MSC core that means they don't have to scout half as diligently as you propose terran does?
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Blizzard said they want mech to be viable.
The Ghost change will not make mech viable.
Avilo is throwing out suggestions on how to make mech viable.
Problem?
Who says Blizzard was intending for the Ghost change to make mech easier? I honestly think this change a response to Terrans not being able to counter attack into Protosses that have failed all-ins because they just go into Templar and sit with storm and get ahead.
Blizz themself said it. and it wont work because the problem of mech are not the ghosts -.-
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Blizzard said they want mech to be viable.
The Ghost change will not make mech viable.
Avilo is throwing out suggestions on how to make mech viable.
Problem?
Who says Blizzard was intending for the Ghost change to make mech easier? I honestly think this change a response to Terrans not being able to counter attack into Protosses that have failed all-ins because they just go into Templar and sit with storm and get ahead.
Blizzard initially said that when they were explaining their proposed changes that it was to help with mech. Go check the start of the other thread.
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.
Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while.
On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first.
Blizzard said they want mech to be viable.
The Ghost change will not make mech viable.
Avilo is throwing out suggestions on how to make mech viable.
Problem?
So you have to revert the oracle speed, remove MSC vision range, revert the Dark Shrine cost and remove the ebay requirements for turrets to make mech viable in tvp?
I think his 5th and 6th point are solid suggestions, but the rest is just Avilo wanting to play mech every game, on every map without having to worry about anything.
Don't comment if you have no idea about the game...or do not understand the suggestions i made.
The MSC changes i put there have absolutely nothing to do with mech. The imbalance in TvP right now are early game all-ins and too many openings from Protoss while also having the MSC overcharge/timewarp being way too good.
The sight range change i put there helps to allow Terran players to hide information just as much as the Protoss currently can. It means Protoss cannot play as greedy as they want anymore, and there are possibilities that Terran can open with tech builds involving hellions/banshees again because Protoss won't have 100% information like they currently do.
Terrans cannot reasonably wall off vs Protoss right now solely because of the MSC allowing high ground vision with no risk. Removing/reducing sight range means Terrans can now wall off again - it changes the entire match-up if a Terran can now wall off their base instead of having the risk of 2 supply depots killed for free every game.
The turrets once again have nothing to do with mech, where are you getting this? Did you just read my username and then your brain thought "mech" with no critical thinking or analysis skills? I even explained what removing the ebay pre-req does - it allows Terrans a more reasonable defense when they scout a proxied stargate making oracles, or if they scout blink. Instead of just having a build order loss, you now would not auto lose the game.
The only two mech suggestions i made were about reducing armory price to brood war price of 100/50 which cuts exactly the same cost as the poorly thought out ghost mobius reactor change. And the +15 damage to shields to bring tanks back to 50 damage vs Protoss units.
None of my points were narrowminded in the slightest. They all are directed at the current imbalances that exist in TvP.
I agree with reducing the sight range of the MSC, for all the points you listed. But when you primarily suggest "removing the sight range" I had to laugh. You also threw in the the Dark Shrine cost randomly. To me it just seems as if you just don't want to scout the map or the base several times. Zergs have to scout the whole map for proxy pylons every single game and keep checking with overlords. Also how often do you actually see an oracle do game ending damage in pro games. Sometimes sure, but not even often enough that I can remember the last game right now.
As I said, I agree with some points, but if you implemented everything, the opening phase would just be boring and terran way too safe. For example reducing the oracle speed and removing the ebay requirement for turrets, will outright kill oracle openings. One or the other maybe, but even that can be argued.
Edit: I apologize for wrongly implying that all your points were about mech.
The diversity of the opening build lowers to what... just the reaper because terran can't be out on the map like zerg after they get speed? Why is it the terran has to scout the whole map quivering with fear of the unknown when the toss has stalkers at the front preventing rines and scv scouts and a MSC core that means they don't have to scout half as diligently as you propose terran does?
Well that's another topic. It's true that Protoss players don't have to scout as actively as zerg or terran, because they just can't proxy as well as Protoss can. You can argue if that's good or bad, but starcraft is balanced this way, races are different. Protoss therefore has (or should have) other weaknesses.
MSC nerf is fine but I doubt it will do too much. Time warp nerf is fine but the duration change from 60 to 50 seconds doesn;t seem to matter much. If anything PvP will just be more 1 basing and TvP will still have a stale early game. I think a range nerf or slight damage nerf would be better but these changes seem fine.
Tempest buff is fantastic. It will hardly matter much in most games but it gives an answer to camp situations with mass spores/spines or PFs. it's basically a nerf to the superboring swarm host while sitting behind a wall tactic as you can now whittle away at that somewhat effectively. Maybe some other tempest tactics pop up like sniping buildings but that is cool.
Ghost buff this way I don;t exactly get, transitioning into them wasn't particulary hard. This only reinforces the 'kill them early or die in the long game' plan of T vs P imo. I had rather seem them just buff the unit stats a little but keep the upgrade.
Hydra change seems insane right now, in WoL this change would have made sense but now it's just way too much of a buff. Halving their gast cost makes hydra timings too strong really, you can do insane hydra timings on just a few gasses that will just cripple PvZ.
EPT
