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I guess I'm not really good enough to chime in, but I love hydra/ling in ZvP and if this goes through I can't wait to abuse this lol. Seems like it's unnecessary? But what do I know..
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On February 01 2014 11:58 Markwerf wrote:
Hydra change seems insane right now, in WoL this change would have made sense but now it's just way too much of a buff. Halving their gast cost makes hydra timings too strong really, you can do insane hydra timings on just a few gasses that will just cripple PvZ.
I think the tech (muta) switches and upgrades behind it will be even scarier than the actual timing, since you won't really have that much more larva and minerals to just double the number of hydras or something.
But actually we shouldn't even (still) discuss the changes as they are the same as before, let's play the map and give feedback  .
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On February 01 2014 11:35 shockaslim wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 11:11 pure.Wasted wrote:On February 01 2014 10:58 Musicus wrote:On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote:
I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S + Show Spoiler +That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change. Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while. On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first. Blizzard said they want mech to be viable. The Ghost change will not make mech viable. Avilo is throwing out suggestions on how to make mech viable. Problem? Who says Blizzard was intending for the Ghost change to make mech easier? I honestly think this change a response to Terrans not being able to counter attack into Protosses that have failed all-ins because they just go into Templar and sit with storm and get ahead.
Blizzard said that...
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On February 01 2014 11:28 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 11:19 Musicus wrote:On February 01 2014 11:11 pure.Wasted wrote:On February 01 2014 10:58 Musicus wrote:On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote:
I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S + Show Spoiler +That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change. Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while. On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first. Blizzard said they want mech to be viable. The Ghost change will not make mech viable. Avilo is throwing out suggestions on how to make mech viable. Problem? So you have to revert the oracle speed, remove MSC vision range, revert the Dark Shrine cost and remove the ebay requirements for turrets to make mech viable in tvp? I think his 5th and 6th point are solid suggestions, but the rest is just Avilo wanting to play mech every game, on every map without having to worry about anything. Don't comment if you have no idea about the game...or do not understand the suggestions i made. The MSC changes i put there have absolutely nothing to do with mech. The imbalance in TvP right now are early game all-ins and too many openings from Protoss while also having the MSC overcharge/timewarp being way too good. The sight range change i put there helps to allow Terran players to hide information just as much as the Protoss currently can. It means Protoss cannot play as greedy as they want anymore, and there are possibilities that Terran can open with tech builds involving hellions/banshees again because Protoss won't have 100% information like they currently do. Terrans cannot reasonably wall off vs Protoss right now solely because of the MSC allowing high ground vision with no risk. Removing/reducing sight range means Terrans can now wall off again - it changes the entire match-up if a Terran can now wall off their base instead of having the risk of 2 supply depots killed for free every game. The turrets once again have nothing to do with mech, where are you getting this? Did you just read my username and then your brain thought "mech" with no critical thinking or analysis skills? I even explained what removing the ebay pre-req does - it allows Terrans a more reasonable defense when they scout a proxied stargate making oracles, or if they scout blink. Instead of just having a build order loss, you now would not auto lose the game. The only two mech suggestions i made were about reducing armory price to brood war price of 100/50 which cuts exactly the same cost as the poorly thought out ghost mobius reactor change. And the +15 damage to shields to bring tanks back to 50 damage vs Protoss units. None of my points were narrowminded in the slightest. They all are directed at the current imbalances that exist in TvP.
Says the guy who plays one style on every map and still gets beat by mid-master players, yeah nobody knows the game but you! You're circular logic is hilarious.
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On February 01 2014 11:53 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 11:47 LibertyRises wrote:On February 01 2014 11:39 Musicus wrote:On February 01 2014 11:28 avilo wrote:On February 01 2014 11:19 Musicus wrote:On February 01 2014 11:11 pure.Wasted wrote:On February 01 2014 10:58 Musicus wrote:On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote:
I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S + Show Spoiler +That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change. Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while. On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first. Blizzard said they want mech to be viable. The Ghost change will not make mech viable. Avilo is throwing out suggestions on how to make mech viable. Problem? So you have to revert the oracle speed, remove MSC vision range, revert the Dark Shrine cost and remove the ebay requirements for turrets to make mech viable in tvp? I think his 5th and 6th point are solid suggestions, but the rest is just Avilo wanting to play mech every game, on every map without having to worry about anything. + Show Spoiler +Don't comment if you have no idea about the game...or do not understand the suggestions i made.
The MSC changes i put there have absolutely nothing to do with mech. The imbalance in TvP right now are early game all-ins and too many openings from Protoss while also having the MSC overcharge/timewarp being way too good.
The sight range change i put there helps to allow Terran players to hide information just as much as the Protoss currently can. It means Protoss cannot play as greedy as they want anymore, and there are possibilities that Terran can open with tech builds involving hellions/banshees again because Protoss won't have 100% information like they currently do.
Terrans cannot reasonably wall off vs Protoss right now solely because of the MSC allowing high ground vision with no risk. Removing/reducing sight range means Terrans can now wall off again - it changes the entire match-up if a Terran can now wall off their base instead of having the risk of 2 supply depots killed for free every game.
The turrets once again have nothing to do with mech, where are you getting this? Did you just read my username and then your brain thought "mech" with no critical thinking or analysis skills? I even explained what removing the ebay pre-req does - it allows Terrans a more reasonable defense when they scout a proxied stargate making oracles, or if they scout blink. Instead of just having a build order loss, you now would not auto lose the game.
The only two mech suggestions i made were about reducing armory price to brood war price of 100/50 which cuts exactly the same cost as the poorly thought out ghost mobius reactor change. And the +15 damage to shields to bring tanks back to 50 damage vs Protoss units.
None of my points were narrowminded in the slightest. They all are directed at the current imbalances that exist in TvP. I agree with reducing the sight range of the MSC, for all the points you listed. But when you primarily suggest "removing the sight range" I had to laugh. You also threw in the the Dark Shrine cost randomly. To me it just seems as if you just don't want to scout the map or the base several times. Zergs have to scout the whole map for proxy pylons every single game and keep checking with overlords. Also how often do you actually see an oracle do game ending damage in pro games. Sometimes sure, but not even often enough that I can remember the last game right now. As I said, I agree with some points, but if you implemented everything, the opening phase would just be boring and terran way too safe. For example reducing the oracle speed and removing the ebay requirement for turrets, will outright kill oracle openings. One or the other maybe, but even that can be argued. Edit: I apologize for wrongly implying that all your points were about mech. The diversity of the opening build lowers to what... just the reaper because terran can't be out on the map like zerg after they get speed? Why is it the terran has to scout the whole map quivering with fear of the unknown when the toss has stalkers at the front preventing rines and scv scouts and a MSC core that means they don't have to scout half as diligently as you propose terran does? Well that's another topic. It's true that Protoss players don't have to scout as actively as zerg or terran, because they just can't proxy as well as Protoss can. You can argue if that's good or bad, but starcraft is balanced this way, races are different. Protoss therefore has (or should have) other weaknesses.
Zerg is designed with speed, their creep spread, overlords, as built in ways to figure out shit the toss is doing. They're designed to be the reactive race and they're designed optimally for it. Terran just isn't unless they go reaper. This I believe is the basic problem with the match up isn't the strength of toss units as much as uit is fear of the unknown. Sometimes I'll scout the all in correctly, and early enough to counter it but then the toss knowing that his gigs up just decides to be a switch hitter. Oh, I'm gonna PRETEND to go through with this blink all in but as a terran how do you if he continually is following through with the attack and not just playing greedy as hell behind it? By the time I salvage my bunkers and push out knowing I can't be overrun I'm so far behind economically what, I have to all in now? That's my reward for scouting and reacting properly? I don't understand what the fuck blizzard wants me to do? And at my level my mirco can make it happen but the hell are the GM's supposed to do but die is what I'm wondering.
Blizzard dont need to balance this for my platinum ass but if they want this to be a spectator esport they better figure some shit out cause top tier terrans are running outta ideas. Didya see WCS NA challenger league? Did you sense the desperation of the root showdown astrea vs illusion? Two similarly skilled players and the shit shit the terran had to resort to... its getting nuts. Am I supposed to be continually making reapers and hope the toss lets me scout a million times to make sure I know what's up? You tell me. The APM requirements, designating a rax and gas to make repears if the first one dies when I should be making rauders and getting stim out? Spamming random scans to get even further behind economically?
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So they disregarded all feedback after those change were proposed?
This may end up being a bait-and-switch patch.
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On February 01 2014 12:19 pmp10 wrote:
So they disregarded all feedback after those change were proposed?
This may end up being a bait-and-switch patch.
what does this post even mean? they're publishing a test map for the changes they said they wanted to test. i swear you people look for any and every excuse to micro-criticize every single action taken by blizzard
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On February 01 2014 12:12 LibertyRises wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 11:53 Musicus wrote:On February 01 2014 11:47 LibertyRises wrote:On February 01 2014 11:39 Musicus wrote:On February 01 2014 11:28 avilo wrote:On February 01 2014 11:19 Musicus wrote:On February 01 2014 11:11 pure.Wasted wrote:On February 01 2014 10:58 Musicus wrote:On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote:
I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S + Show Spoiler +That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change. Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while. On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first. Blizzard said they want mech to be viable. The Ghost change will not make mech viable. Avilo is throwing out suggestions on how to make mech viable. Problem? So you have to revert the oracle speed, remove MSC vision range, revert the Dark Shrine cost and remove the ebay requirements for turrets to make mech viable in tvp? I think his 5th and 6th point are solid suggestions, but the rest is just Avilo wanting to play mech every game, on every map without having to worry about anything. + Show Spoiler +Don't comment if you have no idea about the game...or do not understand the suggestions i made.
The MSC changes i put there have absolutely nothing to do with mech. The imbalance in TvP right now are early game all-ins and too many openings from Protoss while also having the MSC overcharge/timewarp being way too good.
The sight range change i put there helps to allow Terran players to hide information just as much as the Protoss currently can. It means Protoss cannot play as greedy as they want anymore, and there are possibilities that Terran can open with tech builds involving hellions/banshees again because Protoss won't have 100% information like they currently do.
Terrans cannot reasonably wall off vs Protoss right now solely because of the MSC allowing high ground vision with no risk. Removing/reducing sight range means Terrans can now wall off again - it changes the entire match-up if a Terran can now wall off their base instead of having the risk of 2 supply depots killed for free every game.
The turrets once again have nothing to do with mech, where are you getting this? Did you just read my username and then your brain thought "mech" with no critical thinking or analysis skills? I even explained what removing the ebay pre-req does - it allows Terrans a more reasonable defense when they scout a proxied stargate making oracles, or if they scout blink. Instead of just having a build order loss, you now would not auto lose the game.
The only two mech suggestions i made were about reducing armory price to brood war price of 100/50 which cuts exactly the same cost as the poorly thought out ghost mobius reactor change. And the +15 damage to shields to bring tanks back to 50 damage vs Protoss units.
None of my points were narrowminded in the slightest. They all are directed at the current imbalances that exist in TvP. I agree with reducing the sight range of the MSC, for all the points you listed. But when you primarily suggest "removing the sight range" I had to laugh. You also threw in the the Dark Shrine cost randomly. To me it just seems as if you just don't want to scout the map or the base several times. Zergs have to scout the whole map for proxy pylons every single game and keep checking with overlords. Also how often do you actually see an oracle do game ending damage in pro games. Sometimes sure, but not even often enough that I can remember the last game right now. As I said, I agree with some points, but if you implemented everything, the opening phase would just be boring and terran way too safe. For example reducing the oracle speed and removing the ebay requirement for turrets, will outright kill oracle openings. One or the other maybe, but even that can be argued. Edit: I apologize for wrongly implying that all your points were about mech. The diversity of the opening build lowers to what... just the reaper because terran can't be out on the map like zerg after they get speed? Why is it the terran has to scout the whole map quivering with fear of the unknown when the toss has stalkers at the front preventing rines and scv scouts and a MSC core that means they don't have to scout half as diligently as you propose terran does? Well that's another topic. It's true that Protoss players don't have to scout as actively as zerg or terran, because they just can't proxy as well as Protoss can. You can argue if that's good or bad, but starcraft is balanced this way, races are different. Protoss therefore has (or should have) other weaknesses. Zerg is designed with speed, their creep spread, overlords, as built in ways to figure out shit the toss is doing. They're designed to be the reactive race and they're designed optimally for it. Terran just isn't unless they go reaper. This I believe is the basic problem with the match up isn't the strength of toss units as much as uit is fear of the unknown. Sometimes I'll scout the all in correctly, and early enough to counter it but then the toss knowing that his gigs up just decides to be a switch hitter. Oh, I'm gonna PRETEND to go through with this blink all in but as a terran how do you if he continually is following through with the attack and not just playing greedy as hell behind it? By the time I salvage my bunkers and push out knowing I can't be overrun I'm so far behind economically what, I have to all in now? That's my reward for scouting and reacting properly? I don't understand what the fuck blizzard wants me to do? And at my level my mirco can make it happen but the hell are the GM's supposed to do but die is what I'm wondering. Blizzard dont need to balance this for my platinum ass but if they want this to be a spectator esport they better figure some shit out cause top tier terrans are running outta ideas. Didya see WCS NA challenger league? Did you sense the desperation of the root showdown astrea vs illusion? Two similarly skilled players and the shit shit the terran had to resort to... its getting nuts. Am I supposed to be continually making reapers and hope the toss lets me scout a million times to make sure I know what's up? You tell me. The APM requirements, designating a rax and gas to make repears if the first one dies when I should be making rauders and getting stim out? Spamming random scans to get even further behind economically?
I feel your frustration, but really can't answer all this. But I feel rather than cutting down the protoss options by reducing oracle speed, instant turrets, expensive dt shrine etc., Blizzard should give terran more options.
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On February 01 2014 11:19 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 11:11 pure.Wasted wrote:On February 01 2014 10:58 Musicus wrote:On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote:
I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S + Show Spoiler +That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change. Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while. On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first. Blizzard said they want mech to be viable. The Ghost change will not make mech viable. Avilo is throwing out suggestions on how to make mech viable. Problem? So you have to revert the oracle speed, remove MSC vision range, revert the Dark Shrine cost and remove the ebay requirements for turrets to make mech viable in tvp? I think his 5th and 6th point are solid suggestions, but the rest is just Avilo wanting to play mech every game, on every map without having to worry about anything.
1. That's not narrow minded, that's bad suggestions, there's a difference. Blizzard should be narrow-mindedly looking for ways to make mech viable, because they keep paying lip service to doing it.
2. The rest is Avilo thinking Protoss has a ridiculous amount of zero-to-low-risk openings available to them, which constrict Terran openings simply by existing. You think tanks with +15 damage to shields will be able to hold a Blink Stalker macro all in, when Blink Stalkers can get right up in Tanks' grills and the MSC laughs from 14 air range away? Or is the Terran supposed to smoothly transition into mech after getting 3 Rax, Stim, Combat Shields and Bunkers just in case?
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On February 01 2014 12:23 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 12:19 pmp10 wrote:
So they disregarded all feedback after those change were proposed?
This may end up being a bait-and-switch patch. what does this post even mean? they're publishing a test map for the changes they said they wanted to test. i swear you people look for any and every excuse to micro-criticize every single action taken by blizzard
Well here's the problem. Blizzard releases patch notes which everyone can tell will have adverse effects. People explain that adverse effects will happen, root of problem will not be fixed. Blizzard goes through with test patch anyway. We play it out, they see that we were right. Y'know, like the time they traded a tiny buff to the tank for a huge nerf to the WM.
UH OH. What do Blizzard do now? Well, in that case, they scaled back the nerf, but they weren't able to test out the new version of the change and see if they scaled it back far enough (they hadn't).
So what happens here? We test out the MSC changes, they do nothing to fix the core issues in PvT, and then... what? We have to wait another 4 months for another patch?
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On February 01 2014 12:01 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 11:58 Markwerf wrote:
Hydra change seems insane right now, in WoL this change would have made sense but now it's just way too much of a buff. Halving their gast cost makes hydra timings too strong really, you can do insane hydra timings on just a few gasses that will just cripple PvZ. I think the tech (muta) switches and upgrades behind it will be even scarier than the actual timing, since you won't really have that much more larva and minerals to just double the number of hydras or something. But actually we shouldn't even (still) discuss the changes as they are the same as before, let's play the map and give feedback .
I just tested this. I went for 3 hatch roach max. At 12 mins I was only at about 140 supply going for usual tech behind it only because I was floating 800 gas with 0 minerals. Cutting 5+6 gasses might save about 250 minerals in the interim but that amounts to nothing in terms of army supply, just less gas floating. At least this way, hive and infestor transitions..or even muta ones will be more powerful, but the Hydras themselves won't come out in a much bigger number. 100 minerals each keeps their count pretty low.
Adversly, that also makes a Zerg who can't get a 3rd due to some early protoss allin a bit better off with Hydralisks but swarmhost turtle in to later 3rd is what most players like Destiny/Catz etc do when behind.
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On February 01 2014 12:35 DarKcS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 12:01 Musicus wrote:On February 01 2014 11:58 Markwerf wrote:
Hydra change seems insane right now, in WoL this change would have made sense but now it's just way too much of a buff. Halving their gast cost makes hydra timings too strong really, you can do insane hydra timings on just a few gasses that will just cripple PvZ. I think the tech (muta) switches and upgrades behind it will be even scarier than the actual timing, since you won't really have that much more larva and minerals to just double the number of hydras or something. But actually we shouldn't even (still) discuss the changes as they are the same as before, let's play the map and give feedback . I just tested this. I went for 3 hatch roach max. At 12 mins I was only at about 140 supply going for usual tech behind it only because I was floating 800 gas with 0 minerals. Cutting 5+6 gasses might save about 250 minerals in the interim but that amounts to nothing in terms of army supply, just less gas floating. At least this way, hive and infestor transitions..or even muta ones will be more powerful, but the Hydras themselves won't come out in a much bigger number. 100 minerals each keeps their count pretty low. Adversly, that also makes a Zerg who can't get a 3rd due to some early protoss allin a bit better off with Hydralisks but swarmhost turtle in to later 3rd is what most players like Destiny/Catz etc do when behind.
Yeah I also just played a game and my hdra numbers weren't through the roof, the muta switch on the other side.... Even triple evo and ling/baneling/hydra with all upgrades seemed to work well, looked pretty sick to be honest. I think it would open up almost unstoppable timings, you could even add vipers if the tank count is too high. My opponent playing bio had zero chance.
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On February 01 2014 12:06 nGBeast wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 11:28 avilo wrote:On February 01 2014 11:19 Musicus wrote:On February 01 2014 11:11 pure.Wasted wrote:On February 01 2014 10:58 Musicus wrote:On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote:
I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S + Show Spoiler +That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...
I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.
The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...
Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.
If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:
1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.
2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.
This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.
This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.
3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.
What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."
It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.
This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.
4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.
It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.
That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.
5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.
6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.
This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.
The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.
Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.
Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.
p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change. Don't you see how narrowminded you view is? You make it sound as if the game is just about blink allins and mech. I honestly wasn't sure if you are serious for a while. On another note this is still a test map, why should they change the patch before releasing it (the tast map)? I'm sure the hydra change won't go through like this, but it still has to be tested first. Blizzard said they want mech to be viable. The Ghost change will not make mech viable. Avilo is throwing out suggestions on how to make mech viable. Problem? So you have to revert the oracle speed, remove MSC vision range, revert the Dark Shrine cost and remove the ebay requirements for turrets to make mech viable in tvp? I think his 5th and 6th point are solid suggestions, but the rest is just Avilo wanting to play mech every game, on every map without having to worry about anything. Don't comment if you have no idea about the game...or do not understand the suggestions i made. The MSC changes i put there have absolutely nothing to do with mech. The imbalance in TvP right now are early game all-ins and too many openings from Protoss while also having the MSC overcharge/timewarp being way too good. The sight range change i put there helps to allow Terran players to hide information just as much as the Protoss currently can. It means Protoss cannot play as greedy as they want anymore, and there are possibilities that Terran can open with tech builds involving hellions/banshees again because Protoss won't have 100% information like they currently do. Terrans cannot reasonably wall off vs Protoss right now solely because of the MSC allowing high ground vision with no risk. Removing/reducing sight range means Terrans can now wall off again - it changes the entire match-up if a Terran can now wall off their base instead of having the risk of 2 supply depots killed for free every game. The turrets once again have nothing to do with mech, where are you getting this? Did you just read my username and then your brain thought "mech" with no critical thinking or analysis skills? I even explained what removing the ebay pre-req does - it allows Terrans a more reasonable defense when they scout a proxied stargate making oracles, or if they scout blink. Instead of just having a build order loss, you now would not auto lose the game. The only two mech suggestions i made were about reducing armory price to brood war price of 100/50 which cuts exactly the same cost as the poorly thought out ghost mobius reactor change. And the +15 damage to shields to bring tanks back to 50 damage vs Protoss units. None of my points were narrowminded in the slightest. They all are directed at the current imbalances that exist in TvP. Says the guy who plays one style on every map and still gets beat by mid-master players, yeah nobody knows the game but you! You're circular logic is hilarious.
Easy buddy. And I'm guessing you don't watch his stream - he does not mech every game; instead, you're just boarding the bash Avilo train b/c he is one of the few outspoken GM's about balance. And that says a lot since he is still mid GM with a 60% TvZ; 70% TvT; and 40% PvT. Does that tell you anything? I've played this game since BW and one of his most valid points is about the armory cost; Terran will always be at an upgrade deficit if they go Mech versus Protoss.
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On February 01 2014 12:23 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 12:19 pmp10 wrote:
So they disregarded all feedback after those change were proposed?
This may end up being a bait-and-switch patch. what does this post even mean? they're publishing a test map for the changes they said they wanted to test. i swear you people look for any and every excuse to micro-criticize every single action taken by blizzard
It means that Blizzard is concerning itself with whine management rather than game balancing.
It's that or they chose to ignore the very feedback they asked for in their previous announcement.
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Really disapointed with these balanced changed honestly. I mean everything looks good except for hydralisk and tempest which just look insane. I mean it's one thing to suggest the changed but in the past when they been insane they usually scaled it down for the balance patch.. seeing something like a 40 gas hydra maybe instead but this make me really fear it will get added to the game. Hydras aint weak by any means.. they're used in all 3 matchups and is even somewhat of a core unit in zvp.
And the tempest buff.. I mean maybe it will help against the swarmhost play and I really want that to be gone just as much as i want mech to be gone but the sideeffects this will have is with tempest rushes. Even tempest rushes is a threat to terran with them having to invest in early turrets in case of oracle. As for zerg we're not struggling as much but it's still an opening that occasionally see play (Scarlett vs sOs at redbull would be a great example of this) especially on maps like habitation station were tempest are really strong. And now i can see how they just snipe my buildings. And while the swarmhost style is superboring I think protoss is finding ways to deal with it and while a lot of people use swarmhosts it mainly seem to be foreign zergs that do this ultra turtly mass spore version.
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As said before, the approach "let's fix mech by buffing a bio unit" is beyond funny. I really can't take it seriously.
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If any of these changes go through expect to see more team cuts and retiring players.
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I am a PROTOSS - and I am FINE with the Protoss nerfs. I am FINE with leaving the Tempest buff OUT.
I am NOT fine with buffing hydralisks. Why does Zerg need to be buffed? Wtf?
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I'm fine with the notion of reducing the cost of the Hydralisk, but it'd be nice if there was a bit of hp nerf or a buff to Storm so they could be more easily fought off with Templar. Especially with Ghosts getting buffed as well.
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Looking forward to the Hydra buff.its about time Zerg had a decent all round unit,although it should be 35 gas imho.
As to promoting Mech play, i hope no, the game is boring already do we really need to promote more boring static play?
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EPT
