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On February 01 2014 19:42 tar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote:
I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)... I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way. The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player... Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels. If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do: 1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game. 2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp. This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base. This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance. 3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers. What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game." It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory. This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them. 4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price. It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base. That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins. 5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense. 6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss. This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss. The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever. Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg. Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP. p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change. I guess that is the reason Blizzard is not relying too much on player input: you basically just want all that's good for Terran while nerfing everything Toss has. Well thought out...
avilo is completely correct about these points.
1. Oracles were fine pre-buff and the reason David Kim justified the buff with was retarded at best. Just because they were underused yet still theoretically viable doesn't justify a buff. He is absolutely right in the fact that nothing short of vikings or turrets in the main and natural covering every single crevice will counter that shit.
2. The Mothership Core is what led to a Blink nerf in the HotS beta in the first place. It's also caused many balance issues by deeming most aggressive 1 and 2 base Terran and Zerg builds straight-up unviable because no amount of units can deal enough damage before being entirely eradicated by a single Overcharge. We are also seeing Blink all ins eradicate Terran and Zerg on some of the more recently Protoss favored maps like Heavy Rain.
Eradicating MSC visiion won't help either. Avilo seems to forget that Hallucinations can provide aerial vision, which will still make Blink all ins happen.
3. I agree with that. Why the fuck does Zerg get preferential treatment in that regard and have the Evolution Chamber requirement to make Spore Crawlers removed when Queens (unlike Marines) are a soft-counter to the Oracle?
4. If they implement avilo's third suggestion, this won't be necessary. DTs were rather shit back in Wings too.
5. How about a compromise? 100/75? If you eradicate MSC vision entirely, it won't fix things that much. Hallucinations need to return as an upgrade from the Cybernetics Core in order for Blink all ins to finally be balanced, by the fact you'd need to either build a Stargate, research Hallucination or build a Robotics Facility to get the air vision needed.
6. Yes please but I think the Moebius Reactor change is enough to make Mech Ghost viable.
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On February 02 2014 02:30 tar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2014 02:19 XXXSmOke wrote:On February 02 2014 02:05 tar wrote:On February 02 2014 02:01 XXXSmOke wrote:On February 02 2014 01:47 tar wrote:On February 02 2014 01:44 XXXSmOke wrote:On February 02 2014 00:45 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On February 02 2014 00:33 Destructicon wrote:
The reason I am using such an aggressive and condescending tone is because a lot of posters here have earned it, throwing around speculation with nearly no analysis behind it, they don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly.
Are you not doing the same? Both yours and avilo's arguments have nearly no analysis behind it, you don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly. Indeed, you have earned such an aggressive and condescending tone. Wat. They have two incredibly detailed posts stating specific reasons why these things are problems. What kind of analysis are you looking for? The usual bullshit that gets posted here? Herp Derp Derp 52%-48% winrate, Herp Derp Derp MC vs MMA Herp Derp Derp Derp I highly prefer people like these guys clearly addressing the issue which is as clear as fucking daylight about TvP problems, and then suggesting some changes. The problem is now a days people see the word avilo... scroll past his post and reply with Herp Derp Derp Avilo mother fucking Derp Derp Herp AVILO Herp Derp Derp Nope, he is actually right: the whole analysis focuses on how it helps Terran, not how it fixes the MU. Let me ask you this, Who really needs help in TvP right now the toss or the Terran? Let me exaggerated a bit: Like someone above jokingly proposed, one could introduce a Terran ability that kills half of Tosses units for 50 energy. Would help Terrans, the game would still be shit though. Ok?? Thanks for the exaggeration to dodge whats going on here. Its not really that difficult to understand... P's current state is that it is too powerful at all stages of the game, making it incredibly difficult to play against because your opponent can be the greediest fucker and get away with it and laugh at you late game, or he can all in you 50 different ways and kill you. This is not clearly not good design to have a race with so many strengths and so many options in a game that itself is already way to volatile. So what do most of the T's post here and want? Some honest nerfs to Toss to diminish the over barring strengths so that Terran can do some damage and create a more balanced effect for the match up. Go re-read Avilos post, and please no more exaggerations. uhm...yes...or rather...no. I actually don't know if we agree or not.
Well I think based on your responses you at least agree that P is to powerful in the MU's
It seems like you disagree on the fix. How do you fix the MU then? You either have to Buff T or nerf P. I honestly do not see to many feasible ways for Blizz to buff T without huge repercussions in other MU's as we use the same 2 units in the early game and the end game in TvP. I think about 50% of TL will throw up if Blizz ever buffs marine/maruader units again in this game. You can try and buff Bunkers and Missle Turrets, but static D is a great way to increase the dullness of a game.
Now both T and P will have crazy early game defense so every game will be NR20 and go late-game and P will still be on Top.
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Diamond Protoss/Random player here - The issue with PvT in my opinion is that the terran has to invest too much into defending basically every type of harass and all-in and if they scout it late, its basically GG. The protoss can sit back and tech behind these plays leaving the terran behind in the late game be it no ghosts when storm is out, or short on vikings when 2+ colo are out, mostly because the terran is forced to prepare for every possible scenario and cannot afford to invest in the late game like the terran can.
Someone suggested earlier that Turrets have the engineering bay requirement removed which I think is a little bit too extreme because it shuts down too much many protoss options and does nothing to help against blink all-ins, but the idea itself is on the right track.
What about decreasing the build time on bunkers? If you feel that bunker rushes would become an issue you could add a passive to command centers that decreases the build time of nearby bunkers by 50% or something along those lines. This would help significantly against a blink all-in that is scouted late, and helps when you reaper expanded against a proxy stargate. Throw a bunker down in the mineral line and save your marines, sack it and replace with a turret when your engineering bay is finished. I think this would allow the terran to play a bit greedier because they are better protected against blink all-ins, 2 base timings, and oracle rushes but it still gives the protoss a chance to make these strategies work if the terran is not actively scouting. It also does not make DT's useless which is what happens when you remove the engineering bay requirement from turrets.
Thoughts?
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On February 02 2014 02:45 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2014 19:42 tar wrote:On February 01 2014 10:31 avilo wrote:On February 01 2014 10:15 Talack wrote:
I honestly can't believe the hydralisk change is being tested :S That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)... I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way. The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player... Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels. If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do: 1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game. 2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp. This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base. This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance. 3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers. What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game." It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory. This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them. 4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price. It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base. That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins. 5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.
This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.
This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...
Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense. 6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss. This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss. The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever. Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg. Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP. p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change. I guess that is the reason Blizzard is not relying too much on player input: you basically just want all that's good for Terran while nerfing everything Toss has. Well thought out... avilo is completely correct about these points. 1. Oracles were fine pre-buff and the reason David Kim justified the buff with was retarded at best. Just because they were underused yet still theoretically viable doesn't justify a buff. He is absolutely right in the fact that nothing short of vikings or turrets in the main and natural covering every single crevice will counter that shit. 2. The Mothership Core is what led to a Blink nerf in the HotS beta in the first place. It's also caused many balance issues by deeming most aggressive 1 and 2 base Terran and Zerg builds straight-up unviable because no amount of units can deal enough damage before being entirely eradicated by a single Overcharge. We are also seeing Blink all ins eradicate Terran and Zerg on some of the more recently Protoss favored maps like Heavy Rain. Eradicating MSC visiion won't help either. Avilo seems to forget that Hallucinations can provide aerial vision, which will still make Blink all ins happen. 3. I agree with that. Why the fuck does Zerg get preferential treatment in that regard and have the Evolution Chamber requirement to make Spore Crawlers removed when Queens (unlike Marines) are a soft-counter to the Oracle? 4. If they implement avilo's third suggestion, this won't be necessary. DTs were rather shit back in Wings too. 5. How about a compromise? 100/75? If you eradicate MSC vision entirely, it won't fix things that much. Hallucinations need to return as an upgrade from the Cybernetics Core in order for Blink all ins to finally be balanced, by the fact you'd need to either build a Stargate, research Hallucination or build a Robotics Facility to get the air vision needed. 6. Yes please but I think the Moebius Reactor change is enough to make Mech Ghost viable.
Well said except for #6. This ghost change is such a tiny tiny buff to mech its ridiculous. Saving the Terran a minute of time and 100 gas for the upgrade does not suddenly make your mech army roll the Protoss army. Mech is still slow, it still dies to every P unit. When it comes down to it your still going to be fighting a 200 vs 200 army and get crushed straight up. Then die to warp ins. Saving 100 gas and time does nothing when the armies are maxed. I highly doubt there is some magical timing now that T can try and pull some mid-game timing push with mech because he has 2-3 ghosts.
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Anyone been playing the test map rather than theory jerk?
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4713 Posts
On February 02 2014 02:20 DarkLordOlli wrote:
The hydra change is never ever going through
That's what we thought about the oracle change...
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To the people suggesting free interceptors: it's more free damage (or free units) in the game.
If dark templar come too fast and blink all-ins are too powerful, maybe the twilight council is too cheap? It's a very inexpensive building.
If you keep dying to late-game dt harass maybe you're lacking in multitasking. Dark templars in late-game are one way to outplay your opponent and I don't see why it should disappear.
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On February 02 2014 02:54 XXXSmOke wrote:
Well said except for #6. This ghost change is such a tiny tiny buff to mech its ridiculous. Saving the Terran a minute of time and 100 gas for the upgrade does not suddenly make your mech army roll the Protoss army. Mech is still slow, it still dies to every P unit. When it comes down to it your still going to be fighting a 200 vs 200 army and get crushed straight up. Then die to warp ins. Saving 100 gas and time does nothing when the armies are maxed. I highly doubt there is some magical timing now that T can try and pull some mid-game timing push with mech because he has 2-3 ghosts.
The POWER of mech has never been the issue TvP, especially with ghosts, and especially since the tank buff. Mech ground armies of the appropriate composition are easily the strongest in the game EVEN vs PROTOS. While I am not theory crafting here, this is only from my own experience so there may be some mystical anti mech composition I dont know about. The hardest part about going mech vs protoss are the risks you need to take to stay even with the protoss.
Basically I'm talking about the first 10 min of the game. The only way to open SAFELY vs toss is with marine tank expo, or with early agrgession with dropships hellions or widowmines. The first devalues your army the more marines you build so you have to take a risk somewhere while factories are building or accept playing from slightly behind and build a lot of marines.
If you open up aggressive vs toss you absolutely need to damage which has been difficult for a long time because MSC. I don't think its impossible even at top levels, but it at least feels like more than half the time you will not be able to do enough damage.
We can only speculate as to what Blizz FULL thought process but IMO the ghost change was the same as all their "balance" changes which is to encourage the use of a certain unit. They have been doing this for the whole life of HOTS. Buffing the shit out of the warp prism to get people to make more of them, (then rollback the buff slightly) buff oracles, buff tanks, nerf widowmines. All these changes were to get people to certain make units more or less often.
After playing a few games with the mod (which is so fucking awesome btw) I can get ghosts easier against toss, but the early game issues still arise. THE BIGGEST thing I have noticed, is that if you are playing from behind against toss (bio or mech) you can get the very powerful ghost out that much faster which helps terran mid game without touching the early game. This must be Blizz's preference.
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4713 Posts
On February 02 2014 03:03 Grumbels wrote:
To the people suggesting free interceptors: it's more free damage (or free units) in the game.
If dark templar come too fast and blink all-ins are too powerful, maybe the twilight council is too cheap? It's a very inexpensive building.
If you keep dying to late-game dt harass maybe you're lacking in multitasking. Dark templars in late-game are one way to outplay your opponent and I don't see why it should disappear.
Reverting the cost of the DT Shrine won't nerf DT's late game harass potential, it will just delay the annoying all-in early game version of it, which is just want we want.
And blink all-ins aren't too powerful because the TC is cheep, they are strong because protoss has such easy to gain and safe vision to the high ground, and that is because of the MSC. In WoL blink all-ins where still strong, but they where delayed by the need for a robo and obs. The obs was a lot more fragile and could be sniped easier then the MSC, the obs didn't have a slow zone to keep itself and the stalkers alive, or to stifle the defense of the terran.
So the root of the problem is the MSC.
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On February 02 2014 02:57 aZealot wrote:
Anyone been playing the test map rather than theory jerk?
Why does it matter? Are you a good enough player that you can draw balance conclusions from your own play?
I'd say anyone below GM is better off theorycrafting.
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As a Protoss, the photon overcharge nerf seems a good idea and perhaps it still needs to be an even shorter duration. Why did they nerf the time warp? It is a bit harder to use efficiently and is kinda situational. Between the shorter nexus cannon and the stronger ghosts I'm curious to see how PvT will evolve. It looks like PvZ will be even more of a nightmare with swarms of Hydras running all over the damn place.
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On February 02 2014 03:25 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2014 02:57 aZealot wrote:
Anyone been playing the test map rather than theory jerk? Why does it matter? Are you a good enough player that you can draw balance conclusions from your own play? I'd say anyone below GM is better off theorycrafting.
Because otherwise we have a repetition of the same inane points over and over and over again? What does that achieve? And given that I play at a level way below GM, as do most people, I'd like to know what the play might look like at those levels. That makes sense to me. Of course, if you like to theory stroke go for gold.
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On February 02 2014 02:57 aZealot wrote:
Anyone been playing the test map rather than theory jerk?
LOL LOLOLOL
Like that test map justifies ANYTHING.
Really though. Blizz is missing the mark again here.
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On February 02 2014 03:16 Doc Brawler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2014 02:54 XXXSmOke wrote:
Well said except for #6. This ghost change is such a tiny tiny buff to mech its ridiculous. Saving the Terran a minute of time and 100 gas for the upgrade does not suddenly make your mech army roll the Protoss army. Mech is still slow, it still dies to every P unit. When it comes down to it your still going to be fighting a 200 vs 200 army and get crushed straight up. Then die to warp ins. Saving 100 gas and time does nothing when the armies are maxed. I highly doubt there is some magical timing now that T can try and pull some mid-game timing push with mech because he has 2-3 ghosts. The POWER of mech has never been the issue TvP, especially with ghosts, and especially since the tank buff. Mech ground armies of the appropriate composition are easily the strongest in the game EVEN vs PROTOS. While I am not theory crafting here, this is only from my own experience so there may be some mystical anti mech composition I dont know about. The hardest part about going mech vs protoss are the risks you need to take to stay even with the protoss. Basically I'm talking about the first 10 min of the game. The only way to open SAFELY vs toss is with marine tank expo, or with early agrgession with dropships hellions or widowmines. The first devalues your army the more marines you build so you have to take a risk somewhere while factories are building or accept playing from slightly behind and build a lot of marines. If you open up aggressive vs toss you absolutely need to damage which has been difficult for a long time because MSC. I don't think its impossible even at top levels, but it at least feels like more than half the time you will not be able to do enough damage. We can only speculate as to what Blizz FULL thought process but IMO the ghost change was the same as all their "balance" changes which is to encourage the use of a certain unit. They have been doing this for the whole life of HOTS. Buffing the shit out of the warp prism to get people to make more of them, (then rollback the buff slightly) buff oracles, buff tanks, nerf widowmines. All these changes were to get people to certain make units more or less often. After playing a few games with the mod (which is so fucking awesome btw) I can get ghosts easier against toss, but the early game issues still arise. THE BIGGEST thing I have noticed, is that if you are playing from behind against toss (bio or mech) you can get the very powerful ghost out that much faster which helps terran mid game without touching the early game. This must be Blizz's preference.
The power of late game mech is very much an issue, if it was working late game you would see it way more often. The things you talk about here are actually additional issues that make mech so laughably bad in TvP
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On February 02 2014 03:20 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2014 03:03 Grumbels wrote:
To the people suggesting free interceptors: it's more free damage (or free units) in the game.
If dark templar come too fast and blink all-ins are too powerful, maybe the twilight council is too cheap? It's a very inexpensive building.
If you keep dying to late-game dt harass maybe you're lacking in multitasking. Dark templars in late-game are one way to outplay your opponent and I don't see why it should disappear.
Reverting the cost of the DT Shrine won't nerf DT's late game harass potential, it will just delay the annoying all-in early game version of it, which is just want we want. And blink all-ins aren't too powerful because the TC is cheep, they are strong because protoss has such easy to gain and safe vision to the high ground, and that is because of the MSC. In WoL blink all-ins where still strong, but they where delayed by the need for a robo and obs. The obs was a lot more fragile and could be sniped easier then the MSC, the obs didn't have a slow zone to keep itself and the stalkers alive, or to stifle the defense of the terran. So the root of the problem is the MSC.
There is no "root of the problem", that's a completely ridiculous way of looking at balance. I'm just saying, if early twilight council tech proves problematic, why not call for an increase to its cost?
People constantly parrot these suggestions that they haven't thought through at all. Do you really think that tweaking MsC vision range will 'fix' blink all-ins? I doubt it will have too much effect.
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4713 Posts
On February 02 2014 03:36 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2014 03:20 Destructicon wrote:On February 02 2014 03:03 Grumbels wrote:
To the people suggesting free interceptors: it's more free damage (or free units) in the game.
If dark templar come too fast and blink all-ins are too powerful, maybe the twilight council is too cheap? It's a very inexpensive building.
If you keep dying to late-game dt harass maybe you're lacking in multitasking. Dark templars in late-game are one way to outplay your opponent and I don't see why it should disappear.
Reverting the cost of the DT Shrine won't nerf DT's late game harass potential, it will just delay the annoying all-in early game version of it, which is just want we want. And blink all-ins aren't too powerful because the TC is cheep, they are strong because protoss has such easy to gain and safe vision to the high ground, and that is because of the MSC. In WoL blink all-ins where still strong, but they where delayed by the need for a robo and obs. The obs was a lot more fragile and could be sniped easier then the MSC, the obs didn't have a slow zone to keep itself and the stalkers alive, or to stifle the defense of the terran. So the root of the problem is the MSC. There is no "root of the problem", that's a completely ridiculous way of looking at balance. I'm just saying, if early twilight council tech proves problematic, why not call for an increase to its cost? People constantly parrot these suggestions that they haven't thought through at all. Do you really think that tweaking MsC vision range will 'fix' blink all-ins? I doubt it will have too much effect.
If you reduce the vision to the point the MSC needs to get within sniping range to provide enough vision to blink up, then it will be of massive help. But it goes deeper then that. The massive 14 vision range means the Protoss has great awareness of exactly where he can blink in safely, to damage, and get out. If the MSC range is reduced enough, then it needs to go deeper into the main to provide vision and it becomes even more vulnerable to sniping. If he plays safe and just blinks up with minimum range then the protoss risks losing all his talkers if he blinks within range of bio or a bunker.
The vision change would be massive.
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On February 02 2014 03:20 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2014 03:03 Grumbels wrote:
To the people suggesting free interceptors: it's more free damage (or free units) in the game.
If dark templar come too fast and blink all-ins are too powerful, maybe the twilight council is too cheap? It's a very inexpensive building.
If you keep dying to late-game dt harass maybe you're lacking in multitasking. Dark templars in late-game are one way to outplay your opponent and I don't see why it should disappear.
Reverting the cost of the DT Shrine won't nerf DT's late game harass potential, it will just delay the annoying all-in early game version of it, which is just want we want. And blink all-ins aren't too powerful because the TC is cheep, they are strong because protoss has such easy to gain and safe vision to the high ground, and that is because of the MSC. In WoL blink all-ins where still strong, but they where delayed by the need for a robo and obs. The obs was a lot more fragile and could be sniped easier then the MSC, the obs didn't have a slow zone to keep itself and the stalkers alive, or to stifle the defense of the terran. So the root of the problem is the MSC.
Keep in mind that blink finished 80 seconds sooner in wings - They nerfed blink in Beta to compensate for the MSC
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On February 02 2014 02:02 tar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2014 01:57 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 02 2014 00:57 tar wrote:On February 02 2014 00:33 Destructicon wrote:On February 02 2014 00:10 tar wrote:On February 01 2014 22:29 Destructicon wrote:
Damn, the amount off ignorance and hate being flung at Avilo is astounding.
Almost all the suggestions he has made are very sensible and much needed changes.
The problem with Protoss, the real imbalance is that they have way too many options, options that, also limit the options terrans can do. TvP late game isn't easy for Terran, but it isn't completely impossible either, you just need both T and P to enter it on even footing.
At the moment terrans can't enter it on even footing. The early aggressive options of toss, Oracles, Blink all-in, DTs etc, force the terran into using very safe and conservative builds. However because the builds are so safe protoss exploits them with extremely greedy builds, that can't be countered almost at all, because the MSC just gives way, way too much safety.
Terran is thus stuck between a rock and a hard place, they can't be aggressive at all, because of MSC, but they also can't be too greedy, because of all the lethal pressure toss has.
Something has to give, its either the toss lose some of their defensive power, so terran can actually be aggressive and force toss to be less greedy, or toss itself loses some of its aggressive options so that terran can be more greedy and enter the late game even. The logic here is perfectly fine, I only see outbreaks of QQ from protosses, fearful they will actually have to put in some effort to play.
I see nothing wrong reverting the oracle speed, it was a dumb buff to begin with, it was contested and complained against since the very beginning, even protoss pros agreed that it was a bad change. The oracle limits terrans build order choices, you always have to play safe, you always need to take them into account, because if you don't you just die to it, there is no middle ground there.
I also don't see anything wrong with reducing the sight range of MSC. The MSC already breaks so many rules in the game, its a scouting tool, army support/utility and defensive tool, its too versatile, it has too much, it does too much. The MSC should never have been made so strong, its high time two of its utilities got cut, at the very least the sight range should be reduced so that terran can't have a free scout and free vision of the high ground, with zero counterplay to it.
DT Shrine cost was also stupid. Protoss is already very safe because of MSC, it stands to reason then that if defense is so cheep for them then their aggressive options, at least early game, should be more expensive, to balance things out, so they can't actually put on aggression while still staying 100% safe. You don't see any creative DT strats either, they are used as a gimmick early game to gain a huge lead, or they are used as a reliable harass tool late game in all MUs, the cost of it won't nerf it in the late game, but it will tone down the huge number of possible game ending aggressive options toss has in the early game.
Finally, I have it makes 0 sense anymore for Missile turret to require a engy bay to build, the missile turret can only shoot up, it also costs 100 damn minerals and you need at least 1 per mineral line to be safe. Spore was even changed to not require Evo chambers any more, I don't see why Missile turrets can't get the same treatment. I'm not sure about the sensor tower, I think that should still require an ebay.
I also agree with the armory change, it doesn't affect any unit balance, it helps with one of the core problems of mech, setting up infrastructure, because for the longest time you'll be working off 2 base and have to spend gas on upgrades, infrastructure (factories, SP and all their addons) as well as army, and you can't do it all at once off just 440 gas per minute, which leaves the mech army player with glaring weaknesses, since all of the above cost shit loads of gas.
Quite frankly I just think most of you are hating on Avilo for no good reason, almost none of you presented any counter arguments as to why his suggestions are bad, you only vaguely touch on how it should, supposedly, break TvP by swinging it in terran favor, but I've yet to see explanations as to how that would happen.
All I see is mindless bashing and bronze league logic used to counter quite sensible, actually very conservative proposals.
Edit: And since I seem to have went off topic slightly, I hate all the proposed changes, the only good one is the time warp change, but it doesn't do enough, all the changes are bad because they fail to address the appropriate issue in the appropriate way, but I already explained why in the last thread. It's funny that you start your post with claiming that shit was flung at someone yet then you yourself resort to condescending or plain insulting language. The problem with avilo's quite conservative proposals is, that in combination they are not conservative proposals anymore. It is a onesided approach to the issue that results in all problems for Terran solved while Toss would be where they were in the era of the infamous 1/1/1 with the added benefit of banshee buffs. Back then, the complains of Tosses were similar to those of Terrans today: lack of scouting info, variety of Terran harass options and macro follow ups as well a lack of harass options. Also, horribly strong Terran all ins (ie 1/1/1 or marine hellion drops) Just some quick theorycrafting how avilo's changes would affect Tosses options: -Going DTs? Well with old cost and no engibay-turrets? Reduced to an all in that needs to do significant damage (which it should not do anymore). -Oracles? - slow oracles with turrets available on the fly basically make it the same as going DTs. on the other hand: -Tanks sieging your natural and cloaked banshees attacking your mineral line will be painfull without 14 vision range msc especially when you consider that tanks then would do bonus damage versus shields. This would be even stronger than in wol since tanks don't need siege mode research and cloak is considerably cheaper than it was back then. All in all, the game would be back at super passive protoss turtle play with no aggressive options apart from heavy gateway all ins (only them being a lot weaker with widow mines, free siege mode and stuff) I may reiterate that I don't find any one of those changes unreasonable in itself but they for sure add up and make mech play a round thing against Toss, while leaving Toss in a situation that reminds me very much of WoL and I don't want to think about the implications those change would have for PvZ. You seem to have missed the point where I said that, Protoss is already extremely safe against terran aggression while being able to put on a load of pressure themselves or even kill, one of those has to be addressed. Its either toss defensive power needs to be toned down, to the point where terran can put on enough aggression to force the toss to potentially spend more gas on being safe (thus slowing their tech and reducing their greed), or the toss pressures need to be severely nerfed. In the context of Toss still keeping their MSC defensive powers mostly intact (which is what this balance patch proposes), then having all the toss offensive options nerfed is a fair and justified. If you want toss to keep all its offensive toys then propose a nerf to the MSC defensive abilities, you can't have both extreme safety early game and extreme offensive power with no risk reward involved, that's not how an RTS is supposed to work. I find it amusing you mention banshees, they are hard countered by almost anything in the protoss arsenal. If toss goes SG for quick oracle then they will be able to also make 1 phoenix to shut down the aggression. If they opened Robo they can get an obs and stalkers to chase it away. Now, if siege tanks are sieging your nat, then you somehow lost your MSC early or threw down all your time warps willy nilly, which equates to you making a serious mistake and not having any Photon Overcharge, and if that results in you getting your nat nexus sieged then you fucked up royally and deserve to lose or got outplayed and still deserve to lose. Even with Avilo's proposed changes the 1/1/1 is still trash, a simple move out with basic GW units and MSC just kills it, time warps prevent marines from kiting back and allow zealots to close the gap on marines and tanks. And even if the terran gets close to the nat a simple PO will keep the tanks out of range long enough to get Colossus. If you opened with SG its even more one sided because oracles can provide vision via revelation, can be used as as fighting units in conjuncture with GW units, way earlier I should add, leading to the quick destruction of the push, you can also add Phoenix in to kill banshees, much more effective then stalkers. There is also no way a Terran player meching will push at you in the early game. A tank based army is very gas expensive, if he invested into that for a early push he is sacrificing infrastructure or upgrades, or both, and you gain a lead there, + he is sacrificing safety since he might not leave anything behind, and the mech army is still extremely fragile early game. So if he pushes with a tank based mech army at you early game and you didn't see it in time and crush it, then you, again made a very grave mistake and still deserve to lose. And if its tanks sieging your nat late game, then the game is over anyway and you are just delaying the inevitable. The reason I am using such an aggressive and condescending tone is because a lot of posters here have earned it, throwing around speculation with nearly no analysis behind it, they don't deserve any mercy, a lot of the arguments are bad and they should be treated as such and shot down instantly. I have not missed your point, I am just talking about avilo's proposals that you defended with regard to actually balancing and fixing the game. I am not proposing to keep the game as it is. I even agree that you have to somehow adjust the protoss aggressive and defensive options. However, taking away all the aggressive options completely can't be the solution. It might be fair if you want one side to be super passive and one having all the options but then we would just invert the roles in TvP instead of fixing the MU. Also, you mentioning how amazing stargate vs 1/1/1 or banshees in general is. However, with avilo's changes going through, toss would not open stargate anymore since it would be almost useless against bio play. And the power of the Msc and nexus cannon against tank based attacks is not that the nexus shoots but rather that the msc provides vision that is greater than the attack range of the tank.only that way you can actually protect the nexus from being shot at. This obviously is only a early/early-mid game problem, yet this is the stage that needs to be addressed in current tvp. Finally, I am rather astonished about what you say about tank pushes. with the proposed changes,toss would be forced to play very passive to be safe while Terran now gets free siege, cheaper cloak and a cheaper armory while being able to build emergency turrents without the need for an engibay. Thus Terran mech pushes would hit harder and/or earlier with a lot less draw backs. What? The power of the msc vs 1/1/1 tank pushes is the vision not Overcharge? I'm sorry, but with less vision it can accomplish exactly the same, PO is 13 range, MSC vision is 11, Tanks 13, Vikings 9, Marines 5. You can still provide vision ezpz no risk exactly like vikings in tvt do. Msc vision reduce changes NOTHING in Tank vs PO Ne us. Msc vision is 14 atm but even with 11 it would be alright, however, it was suggested to eliminate its vision or reduce it to a point it can't grant vision for stalkers to shoot up ramps (that would be about 3 range). With those changes PO would be useless against tanks
I think you misinterpret that suggestion people do.
Stalkers shooting high ground or blinking, no problem. That's fine.
BUT
the huge vision range makes the blink 100% safe because you have perfect information AND the MSC is nigh undeniable.
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Even as a Terran, I think the Ghost buff is a mistake. In general, I think macro game TvP is more entertaining to both watch and play when the Protoss goes High Templar rather than Colossus as their first AoE-choice. The Ghost buff would be a slight but significant nerf to that style, which would be a shame.
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If they're so determined to buff hydras than why not just make the hydra range baseline?
Moving out without both upgrades can be dangerous so if either one was made baseline we could see quicker hydra pushes.
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EPT
