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On November 12 2013 21:28 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 21:03 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 12 2013 20:56 Glorfindel! wrote:On November 12 2013 20:49 Viserion wrote:
ForGG after playing elfi "fucking disgtusting orracle"
Elfi´s respond "yeah it will get nerfed for sure"¨
haha what a patch Haha, yeah that game was quite fun. ForGG was stuck in his base, left with a drop and 2 oracles and a phoneix killed everything that was left. Drop hitting, Nexus Cannon kills evertyhing :D Oracles with the new stats will be opened everygame in TvP. There just aint any way to not make them worth is. Meanwhile Terran will only have Reaper - Reactor - Expand as their only viable opening. I think everything else has close to autoloss to the Oracles. I doubt that. A single turret still shuts it down the same way it did before unless you proxy the stargate. Quick question: is there any reason not to proxy the stargate? I mean it's not as if you need it ever again afterwards, so losing it isn't that big of a hit. You build your initial few oracles and once the terran has enough turrets they are basically useless except for scouting for which one or two are enough.
The problem with a proxy stargate is that it can be scouted by a reaper and destroyed before it gets an oracle out. With the new patch, there's really no point in proxying it because it gets to your opponent's base much quicker. Plus, they won't be able to scout your strategy if you build it in-base.
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On November 12 2013 21:03 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 20:56 Glorfindel! wrote:On November 12 2013 20:49 Viserion wrote:
ForGG after playing elfi "fucking disgtusting orracle"
Elfi´s respond "yeah it will get nerfed for sure"¨
haha what a patch Haha, yeah that game was quite fun. ForGG was stuck in his base, left with a drop and 2 oracles and a phoneix killed everything that was left. Drop hitting, Nexus Cannon kills evertyhing :D Oracles with the new stats will be opened everygame in TvP. There just aint any way to not make them worth is. Meanwhile Terran will only have Reaper - Reactor - Expand as their only viable opening. I think everything else has close to autoloss to the Oracles. I doubt that. A single turret still shuts it down the same way it did before unless you proxy the stargate.
Constant scouting and map control. You will always get a few building/transfering scvs aswell as couple of marines. I dont doubt that oracle will be standard opener
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Austria24422 Posts
On November 12 2013 21:23 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 16:12 DarkLordOlli wrote:
The oracle "buff" is actually a nerf to protoss because when you fly that thing to your opponent's base now and look away to macro, it'll already be there and die to marines The Medivac boost is actually a nerf to Terran because when you fly that thing to your opponent's base and now look away to macro, it'll already be there and die to Stalkers. Please.
I hope you realize that I was being entirely sarcastic
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On November 12 2013 21:33 wptlzkwjd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 21:28 JustPassingBy wrote:On November 12 2013 21:03 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 12 2013 20:56 Glorfindel! wrote:On November 12 2013 20:49 Viserion wrote:
ForGG after playing elfi "fucking disgtusting orracle"
Elfi´s respond "yeah it will get nerfed for sure"¨
haha what a patch Haha, yeah that game was quite fun. ForGG was stuck in his base, left with a drop and 2 oracles and a phoneix killed everything that was left. Drop hitting, Nexus Cannon kills evertyhing :D Oracles with the new stats will be opened everygame in TvP. There just aint any way to not make them worth is. Meanwhile Terran will only have Reaper - Reactor - Expand as their only viable opening. I think everything else has close to autoloss to the Oracles. I doubt that. A single turret still shuts it down the same way it did before unless you proxy the stargate. Quick question: is there any reason not to proxy the stargate? I mean it's not as if you need it ever again afterwards, so losing it isn't that big of a hit. You build your initial few oracles and once the terran has enough turrets they are basically useless except for scouting for which one or two are enough. The problem with a proxy stargate is that it can be scouted by a reaper and destroyed before it gets an oracle out. With the new patch, there's really no point in proxying it because it gets to your opponent's base much quicker. Plus, they won't be able to scout your strategy if you build it in-base.
What? Do you know how much time it takes for a Reaper to kill a Pylon, let alone a Stargate? What the Protoss does in this case is very simple, he simply builds another Pylon with his Probe, and by the time his first Stalker come to chase your Reaper, the first Pylon isn't even destroyed anyway. Proxying the Stargate is completely free (unless you were planning to play Phoenixes/Colossi, but then why are you proxying your Stargate knowing you will need it during the whole midgame afterwards?).
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Great changes, but the siege tank attack speed of 2.8 is rather low, I thought they are going to actually improve it from 2.7 to 2.6 because at 2.7 it didn't really do anything, same amount of shots to kill units, just marginally better when amassed to 10 or more.
Now they are pretty much same, I don't see how this small 0.2 attack speed improvement will help them out.
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"The main reason is that we’d like the difference between someone who’s amazing with Oracle micro to be able to keep them alive the whole game to get the most out of them, whereas lesser skilled players won’t get as much out of this change"
Already applies now, unreasonable change.
In addition to that, Widowmine nerf when we are currently not seeing Terran domination in that match up. Well played.
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4713 Posts
On November 12 2013 20:01 mihajovics wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 18:08 Destructicon wrote:On November 12 2013 18:02 mihajovics wrote:there have been patches before where everyone was bitchin' yet it turned out okay. for a change, let's look at the possible poitive outcomes: - maybe the ZvT composition will be more diversified with some tanks sprinkled in - hopefully we will start to see BC's in the matchup, if so we're half way there only the carrier remains to be fixed  - the roach speed buff is pretty big and might help zerg to transition out of the middle game roachfest and itt will definitely help with end game shenanigans i would like to see some structural design changes too, but the time for that is the next expansion There have also been patches (Queen patch), that completely broke the game and left it shattered for the remainder of that particular time frame. This patch will solve very little, because the problems with mech and sky transitions where never about upgrades. I really do wish people would try to understand this game better, so I wouldn't have to point out how wrong their assumptions are each and every time they post. Hahaha, sorry, didn't know the Sun shined out of your ass! Of course they generally did a bad job with patches in WoL, the queen patch being one of the worst... Yet you can't deny HotS is a million times more balanced than WoL was and in general they are doing a lot better job with everything. I don't think they are where they need to be yet, but it's ignorant and stupid not to give credit where credit is due. Better late than never. It's quite simply a mathematical fact that the joint upgrades will help in the transition, regardless what other factors there are, and there are waaaay to many variables to simply pull out of your ass a definite answer to whether or not this will be enough of a nodge to tip over the scale. If you had an ounce of scientific erudition, this would be obvious... the solution than man kind found to this problem is called testing. Want to do something productive? Stop the mastheorybation and play some games on the test map.
Even if Blizzard have/had a perfect track record of balance up until now, it doesn't mean they can mess up as badly as they did in WoL. I could give credit for them for doing a relatively good job up until now, but that's where it ends.
Now, the main problem about terran design, and why this patch will actually do very little in TvP. The way terran production works is, you have to dedicate to it. Unlike zerg that can remax in more or less 1 min with any composition given that they have the appropriate tech structures, terran can't do that, because even if they had the upgrades for mech, it doesn't mean that you have the infrastructures.
Infrastructure has been the number one problem for terran. Because it takes so long and costs so much to setup, 65 seconds per rax, 25/50 seconds per addon, 100 gas per factory 25/50 gas per addon. Then it means terran tech switching is inflexible.
If terran tech switching is inflexible, then the unit compositions it uses per tech tree must be very flexible and powerful themselves. That is why bio (with support) can and should be a match for every zerg or protoss composition. That is why mech (with support possibly) should also be very powerful against against any and every zerg and protoss composition.
Now, the reason why bio + support works is because barracks cost minerals only, bio is a mineral heavy composition and the support units for bio are mainly gas heavy. So they complement each other.
Mech on the other hand has production that costs gas to build, the mech army itself costs gas to make and the support units for the army also cost gas. This mech + anything doesn't complement each other.
Then mech is also, very, very, very immobile. A protoss deathball is just faster by shear virtue of not being tied up to siege and unsiege times, add to that the fact that the fodder units can be reinforced nearly on the spot and that it can also recall at any time, and you have a much, much, much more formidable army.
Lastly even if you somehow make it to the supreme lategame, it isn't that much better against protoss, because templar can feedback ravens, PDDs and also storm vikings, while tempests shell you from afar. Only way to fight against something like that is with mobility, mech lacks that, bio has it though.
So, as you can notice its simple mathematical fact that, bio is faster, more flexible and easier to setup then mech. And all the variables I have mentioned above all converge to one single conclusion, this change will help slightly (as in you can now mix in more hellbats YAY!), but in the grand scheme of things it will do very little. You still want to stay on bio vs toss because its too expensive to switch to mech, and because mech is too abusable due to its immobility.
And because of how good mutas are, you still will probably want to go bio mine, because despite the nerf, mines still have 4 major advantages over tanks:
-They are still way easier to produce in mass
-They still cost way less gas
-They still require the zerg to have detection with them at all times to kill
-They can actually fire at and kill mutas
Now, please, before you accuse me of ignorance maybe you should take the time to try and analyze and understand what I said. If you'd have done so you'd be able to see that, the facts I have are solid and the conclusions are just as much so, and it won't require a lot of testing to prove it.
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On November 12 2013 21:40 BillGates wrote:
Great changes, but the siege tank attack speed of 2.8 is rather low, I thought they are going to actually improve it from 2.7 to 2.6 because at 2.7 it didn't really do anything, same amount of shots to kill units, just marginally better when amassed to 10 or more.
Now they are pretty much same, I don't see how this small 0.2 attack speed improvement will help them out.
To me it feels like the balance team caving into community demands and "buffing" the siege tank.
Its not going to be a part of standard play anytime soon and apparently they don't want it to be either.
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I am deeply disappointed. What are these patches?! They cannot be serious!!!!
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Watching forggs stream. He is meching vs elfi. Lets see how those tanks do.
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forgg is going mech vs elfi guys .. just saying trying to test things out
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The objective of starcraft isn't to design an asymmetrical multiplayer game.
It is to destroy all your opponents structures.
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On November 12 2013 21:45 Fjodorov wrote:
Watching forggs stream. He is meching vs elfi. Lets see how those tanks do.
Forgg got lucky, Elfi went aggressive with colossi instead of turtling with immortals. 
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On November 12 2013 21:45 Fjodorov wrote:
Watching forggs stream. He is meching vs elfi. Lets see how those tanks do.
Can I predict it?
Either elfi wins, and it's complete proof that this is bullshit
or elfi loses, and he sucks anyway, so it can't be used to prove anything.
Easy :D
edit: it's mindblowing to me that I have to state that I'm mocking this attitude ~~
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On November 12 2013 21:15 Glorfindel! wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 21:13 Ramiz1989 wrote:On November 12 2013 21:09 Glorfindel! wrote:On November 12 2013 21:07 10bulgares wrote:
How many of the people complaining here have actually played the game with the changes? Do you want everybody that has written anything in the thread to respond to this - or is this your way of saying "you guys have no clue what you are talking about" ? Probably the second, it was rhetorical question.  Because if it was a rhetorical question stating nobody knows anything - perhaps adding why and why his experience with the new patch proves the persons that not have played it wrong, etc. etc.
It was more wondering whether the people sounding so assertive were just pulling things out of their asses or out of actual experience. I admit that I think it is probable that most of them haven't tested anything.
I mean, I have nothing against theory but I am surprised to see so few testimonies from what actually happened in game overall.
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On November 12 2013 21:52 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 21:45 Fjodorov wrote:
Watching forggs stream. He is meching vs elfi. Lets see how those tanks do. Can I predict it? Either elfi wins, and it's complete proof that this is bullshit or elfi loses, and he sucks anyway, so it can't be used to prove anything. Easy :D
Yeah elfi is only good in PvP it proves nothing
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On November 12 2013 21:52 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 21:45 Fjodorov wrote:
Watching forggs stream. He is meching vs elfi. Lets see how those tanks do. Can I predict it? Either elfi wins, and it's complete proof that this is bullshit or elfi loses, and he sucks anyway, so it can't be used to prove anything. Easy :D
LOL...pretty much this. Forgg just won and it was clear Elfi didn't have a clue what he was doing.
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Ok so this pretty much marks the day I change from a 10 Year Terran Player and Play protoss...... I have suffered through the winfestor days. I don't think my Terran Heart can bleed anymore T.T
Proxy oracle plays are already extremely powerful......... you just made protoss the dominating race for Days to come.
Also put Terran way into the losing bracket. I will be very surprised to even see someone like Taeja or Bomber get anywhere in any tournament...... RO16 is the highest any terran player will see until this is fixed.....
You heard it here first folks
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Rolf elfi, everyone knows he should just have made mass immortals with archons...
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On November 12 2013 21:55 Pirfiktshon wrote:
Ok so this pretty much marks the day I change from a 10 Year Terran Player and Play protoss...... I have suffered through the winfestor days. I don't think my Terran Heart can bleed anymore T.T
Proxy oracle plays are already extremely powerful......... you just made protoss the dominating race for Days to come.
Also put Terran way into the losing bracket. I will be very surprised to even see someone like Taeja or Bomber get anywhere in any tournament...... RO16 is the highest any terran player will see until this is fixed.....
You heard it here first folks
Actually we didn't. Plus a real Terran will always be a Terran
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EPT
