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Austria24422 Posts
On November 12 2013 19:33 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 19:28 DarkLordOlli wrote:On November 12 2013 19:25 GreenMash wrote:On November 12 2013 19:19 Zealously wrote:
It doesn't seem like everyone understands the significance of the two terran buffs I don't think it will matter at all in TvP which is the matchup most terrans feel is unfair. The Widow mine nerf seem too big when compared to the buffs. I do think the buffs will make mech much better TvZ though. The WM nerf may make bio useless (difficult to tell atm) Well, it certainly could matter against templar openings. Terrans nowadays don't necessarily mix in hellbats (except ForGG who does it successfully) but with this buff you could add hellbats against a chargelot/archon/templar army, upgrade their attack and be better off against the eventual colossus transition because vikings have that upgrade. That again could speed up the process for terran to get to a Ghost/viking army that can combat colossus/templar. Same applies to vikings -> hellbats. I'm not saying it's definitely going to happen like that but I could see it being mixed in. And definitely more tank based openings/midgames against protoss like terrans did in WoL sometimes (Supernova for example loved them). 1 - 0 hellbats vs 2 -2 P army arent very good. And investing in blueflame when you want to reactor hellbats isnt practical at all either. Add to that the fact that hellbats are slow and cant be microed out of storm. I dont think we will see this at all. Comes down to the usual problems of terran production. Cant just switch however you want, not even with these upgrade changes.
I didn't say anything about blue flame but with a standard bio build your factory is idle most of the time anyway or used for scouting. People like ForGG already do mix them in (he beat HerO and sOs at the Season 1 Finals with it, beat HerO again at the ATC finals and still used it last time I saw him). It creates a much larger army much faster so when protoss tries to saturate a standard third base and tech as it's standard, he's up at 160-180 supply and pressures hard. Neither HerO nor sOs were able to hold that third in any of their games so their production and tech switch capability is already severely limited. Usually you'd want to stay on 2 bases for a bit longer and tech harder but since upgrading hellbats = upgrading vikings now, that means that if protoss decides to delay the third for longer and tech harder then terran will be better off against that as well by simply upgrading mech. As I said I don't expect this to be standard because it probably relies on dealing damage with your first pressure but it might be more viable now and something to mix in.
Being slow is totally fine when you're up 60-80 supply on your opponent. Those hellbats are purely to soak up zealot damage and deal it back to them.
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On November 12 2013 19:38 Assirra wrote:
People complaining some changes were too small but how many times seaminlgy small changes made a huge impact?
Lets at least wait a month or 2 before we complain about a change being too small.
I played like 50 games to test those changes on balance test map and we all came to conclusion (even Blizzard stating on blizzcon that they want to work on mech TvZ, TvP) that it is totally not enough for Tank to make any noticable difference.
Are you really going to tell me I should wait 2 months to see if 2.8 makes anything better?
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On November 12 2013 19:35 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 19:30 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 12 2013 18:31 MockHamill wrote:
I really feel sorry for Protoss now that tanks got 2.8 attack speed. I do not think that mech can be defeated any more but maybe some Code S player can figure out a solution. This seems right. So brave from Blizz to buff the Tank so much. At least they didn't go through with the mammoth 2.7 and scaled it back to a still enormous 2.8. I played a game where one of my Immortals actually died to Tanks, 2.8 really seems broken.. What am I supposed to do now when my units actually dies when I run into 20 sieged Tanks? Blizzard, seriously, get your shit together..
when i run my bio army into tanks I also die without killing anything, thats why you dont do that. Maybe you should consider other options than trying to run your army into 20 sieged tanks
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On November 12 2013 19:42 iznobest wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 19:35 Everlong wrote:On November 12 2013 19:30 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 12 2013 18:31 MockHamill wrote:
I really feel sorry for Protoss now that tanks got 2.8 attack speed. I do not think that mech can be defeated any more but maybe some Code S player can figure out a solution. This seems right. So brave from Blizz to buff the Tank so much. At least they didn't go through with the mammoth 2.7 and scaled it back to a still enormous 2.8. I played a game where one of my Immortals actually died to Tanks, 2.8 really seems broken.. What am I supposed to do now when my units actually dies when I run into 20 sieged Tanks? Blizzard, seriously, get your shit together.. when i run my bio army into tanks I also die without killing anything, thats why you dont do that. Maybe you should consider other options than trying to run your army into 20 sieged tanks
No, sorry, I refuse playing a game where there are units I can't run into with my Immortals (why would you name them so?) and not come out ahead!!! What would be the purpose of my units then? Sit and wait for him to kill me?
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On November 12 2013 19:44 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 19:42 iznobest wrote:On November 12 2013 19:35 Everlong wrote:On November 12 2013 19:30 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 12 2013 18:31 MockHamill wrote:
I really feel sorry for Protoss now that tanks got 2.8 attack speed. I do not think that mech can be defeated any more but maybe some Code S player can figure out a solution. This seems right. So brave from Blizz to buff the Tank so much. At least they didn't go through with the mammoth 2.7 and scaled it back to a still enormous 2.8. I played a game where one of my Immortals actually died to Tanks, 2.8 really seems broken.. What am I supposed to do now when my units actually dies when I run into 20 sieged Tanks? Blizzard, seriously, get your shit together.. when i run my bio army into tanks I also die without killing anything, thats why you dont do that. Maybe you should consider other options than trying to run your army into 20 sieged tanks No, sorry, I refuse playing a game where there are units I can't run into with my Immortals (why would you name them so?) and not come out ahead!!! What would be the purpose of my units then? Sit and wait for him to kill me?
exploit his immobility, thats what bio players do. Harass the meching player, never engage, expand all over the map and keep running into his base when he tries to move out.
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On November 12 2013 19:46 iznobest wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 19:44 Everlong wrote:On November 12 2013 19:42 iznobest wrote:On November 12 2013 19:35 Everlong wrote:On November 12 2013 19:30 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 12 2013 18:31 MockHamill wrote:
I really feel sorry for Protoss now that tanks got 2.8 attack speed. I do not think that mech can be defeated any more but maybe some Code S player can figure out a solution. This seems right. So brave from Blizz to buff the Tank so much. At least they didn't go through with the mammoth 2.7 and scaled it back to a still enormous 2.8. I played a game where one of my Immortals actually died to Tanks, 2.8 really seems broken.. What am I supposed to do now when my units actually dies when I run into 20 sieged Tanks? Blizzard, seriously, get your shit together.. when i run my bio army into tanks I also die without killing anything, thats why you dont do that. Maybe you should consider other options than trying to run your army into 20 sieged tanks No, sorry, I refuse playing a game where there are units I can't run into with my Immortals (why would you name them so?) and not come out ahead!!! What would be the purpose of my units then? Sit and wait for him to kill me? exploit his immobility, thats what bio players do. Harass the meching player, never engage, expand all over the map and keep running into his base when he tries to move out.
Why would I do this? I play Protoss, he should be doing this to kill me.
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On November 12 2013 19:46 iznobest wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 19:44 Everlong wrote:On November 12 2013 19:42 iznobest wrote:On November 12 2013 19:35 Everlong wrote:On November 12 2013 19:30 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 12 2013 18:31 MockHamill wrote:
I really feel sorry for Protoss now that tanks got 2.8 attack speed. I do not think that mech can be defeated any more but maybe some Code S player can figure out a solution. This seems right. So brave from Blizz to buff the Tank so much. At least they didn't go through with the mammoth 2.7 and scaled it back to a still enormous 2.8. I played a game where one of my Immortals actually died to Tanks, 2.8 really seems broken.. What am I supposed to do now when my units actually dies when I run into 20 sieged Tanks? Blizzard, seriously, get your shit together.. when i run my bio army into tanks I also die without killing anything, thats why you dont do that. Maybe you should consider other options than trying to run your army into 20 sieged tanks No, sorry, I refuse playing a game where there are units I can't run into with my Immortals (why would you name them so?) and not come out ahead!!! What would be the purpose of my units then? Sit and wait for him to kill me? exploit his immobility, thats what bio players do. Harass the meching player, never engage, expand all over the map and keep running into his base when he tries to move out.
I think his post was pure sarcasm 
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On November 12 2013 19:52 gTank wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 19:46 iznobest wrote:On November 12 2013 19:44 Everlong wrote:On November 12 2013 19:42 iznobest wrote:On November 12 2013 19:35 Everlong wrote:On November 12 2013 19:30 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 12 2013 18:31 MockHamill wrote:
I really feel sorry for Protoss now that tanks got 2.8 attack speed. I do not think that mech can be defeated any more but maybe some Code S player can figure out a solution. This seems right. So brave from Blizz to buff the Tank so much. At least they didn't go through with the mammoth 2.7 and scaled it back to a still enormous 2.8. I played a game where one of my Immortals actually died to Tanks, 2.8 really seems broken.. What am I supposed to do now when my units actually dies when I run into 20 sieged Tanks? Blizzard, seriously, get your shit together.. when i run my bio army into tanks I also die without killing anything, thats why you dont do that. Maybe you should consider other options than trying to run your army into 20 sieged tanks No, sorry, I refuse playing a game where there are units I can't run into with my Immortals (why would you name them so?) and not come out ahead!!! What would be the purpose of my units then? Sit and wait for him to kill me? exploit his immobility, thats what bio players do. Harass the meching player, never engage, expand all over the map and keep running into his base when he tries to move out. I think his post was pure sarcasm
yeah now i read back i think youre right 
sure hope so ^_^
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On November 12 2013 18:08 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 18:02 mihajovics wrote:there have been patches before where everyone was bitchin' yet it turned out okay. for a change, let's look at the possible poitive outcomes: - maybe the ZvT composition will be more diversified with some tanks sprinkled in - hopefully we will start to see BC's in the matchup, if so we're half way there only the carrier remains to be fixed  - the roach speed buff is pretty big and might help zerg to transition out of the middle game roachfest and itt will definitely help with end game shenanigans i would like to see some structural design changes too, but the time for that is the next expansion There have also been patches (Queen patch), that completely broke the game and left it shattered for the remainder of that particular time frame. This patch will solve very little, because the problems with mech and sky transitions where never about upgrades. I really do wish people would try to understand this game better, so I wouldn't have to point out how wrong their assumptions are each and every time they post.
Hahaha, sorry, didn't know the Sun shined out of your ass!
Of course they generally did a bad job with patches in WoL, the queen patch being one of the worst...
Yet you can't deny HotS is a million times more balanced than WoL was and in general they are doing a lot better job with everything.
I don't think they are where they need to be yet, but it's ignorant and stupid not to give credit where credit is due. Better late than never.
It's quite simply a mathematical fact that the joint upgrades will help in the transition, regardless what other factors there are, and there are waaaay to many variables to simply pull out of your ass a definite answer to whether or not this will be enough of a nodge to tip over the scale.
If you had an ounce of scientific erudition, this would be obvious... the solution than man kind found to this problem is called testing.
Want to do something productive? Stop the mastheorybation and play some games on the test map.
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On November 12 2013 19:28 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 19:25 GreenMash wrote:On November 12 2013 19:19 Zealously wrote:
It doesn't seem like everyone understands the significance of the two terran buffs I don't think it will matter at all in TvP which is the matchup most terrans feel is unfair. The Widow mine nerf seem too big when compared to the buffs. I do think the buffs will make mech much better TvZ though. The WM nerf may make bio useless (difficult to tell atm) Well, it certainly could matter against templar openings. Terrans nowadays don't necessarily mix in hellbats (except ForGG who does it successfully) but with this buff you could add hellbats against a chargelot/archon/templar army, upgrade their attack and be better off against the eventual colossus transition because vikings have that upgrade. That again could speed up the process for terran to get to a Ghost/viking army that can combat colossus/templar. Same applies to vikings -> hellbats. I'm not saying it's definitely going to happen like that but I could see it being mixed in. And definitely more tank based openings/midgames against protoss like terrans did in WoL sometimes (Supernova for example loved them).
I don't think Tank openings will be that much better with the small dps increase. The Photon overcharge would still be to powerful imo. The hellbats may be used more though. I don't know how much of a difference the upgrade change would make though
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THIS IS NOT A FUCKING BETA
I mean, seriously. Enough changes, let it develop. Concentrate a bit more on maps or arcade or whatever but just stop treating the game as if it's a beta.
If you ruined the game, you might patch once or twice, if there is like a constant 3-5% winrate ratio difference in any matchup, okay, one might consider the game being imbalanced. But seriously, why are you guys selling HotS for 60 bucks, then go all back into beta stage again. Aarrrgh. So much rage.
And, for the most ppl here probably the least important thing: what the fuck are the new 4v4 maps about. Lol.
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On November 12 2013 20:05 boxerfred wrote:
THIS IS NOT A FUCKING BETA
I mean, seriously. Enough changes, let it develop. Concentrate a bit more on maps or arcade or whatever but just stop treating the game as if it's a beta.
If you ruined the game, you might patch once or twice, if there is like a constant 3-5% winrate ratio difference in any matchup, okay, one might consider the game being imbalanced. But seriously, why are you guys selling HotS for 60 bucks, then go all back into beta stage again. Aarrrgh. So much rage.
And, for the most ppl here probably the least important thing: what the fuck are the new 4v4 maps about. Lol.
YES
I think focusing on creating a diverse map pool would be much much better... and then balance AFTER that...
now almost all the maps are the same
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On November 12 2013 20:11 mihajovics wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 20:05 boxerfred wrote:
THIS IS NOT A FUCKING BETA
I mean, seriously. Enough changes, let it develop. Concentrate a bit more on maps or arcade or whatever but just stop treating the game as if it's a beta.
If you ruined the game, you might patch once or twice, if there is like a constant 3-5% winrate ratio difference in any matchup, okay, one might consider the game being imbalanced. But seriously, why are you guys selling HotS for 60 bucks, then go all back into beta stage again. Aarrrgh. So much rage.
And, for the most ppl here probably the least important thing: what the fuck are the new 4v4 maps about. Lol. YES I think focusing on creating a diverse map pool would be much much better... and then balance AFTER that... now almost all the maps are the same
Yea and when Blizzard does make new maps this changes into "Why can't i do the same tactic like always? your map suck blizzard!"
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On November 12 2013 20:17 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 20:11 mihajovics wrote:On November 12 2013 20:05 boxerfred wrote:
THIS IS NOT A FUCKING BETA
I mean, seriously. Enough changes, let it develop. Concentrate a bit more on maps or arcade or whatever but just stop treating the game as if it's a beta.
If you ruined the game, you might patch once or twice, if there is like a constant 3-5% winrate ratio difference in any matchup, okay, one might consider the game being imbalanced. But seriously, why are you guys selling HotS for 60 bucks, then go all back into beta stage again. Aarrrgh. So much rage.
And, for the most ppl here probably the least important thing: what the fuck are the new 4v4 maps about. Lol. YES I think focusing on creating a diverse map pool would be much much better... and then balance AFTER that... now almost all the maps are the same Yea and when Blizzard does make new maps this changes into "Why can't i do the same tactic like always? your map suck blizzard!"
No. I am used to have some 4v4 maps where you can expand, but an allin style is also possible. But now, there are so many maps where teamplay is rather unimportant, due to either spawn positions or simply untakable naturals/thirds an allin is forced. You can't macro up quite well, those maps force a "Who attacks first wins" playstyle which simply sucks. It's the same problem that MMMM has brought to ZvT: a stale matchup. 4v4 gets forced into one base play by most of the new maps, on master's level, it's basically totally allin-ish. But, as I can read from your few words already, you're one of the guys not caring about 4v4.
Edit: IMO, that just points out that Blizzard is all about selling first, then do the testing. I wouldn't have had a problem with waiting half a year with a longer Beta or so. But we have had a freaking WCS and crowned the first World Champion of HotS with a 100k bucks prize money - and we're still having changes to the game? I mean, what does the title mean then? "Look, sOs, in Hots 1.0, you're world champion. But when Hots 2.0 is out, your playstyle will be so different and maybe you're not good vs terran when terran can play mech again"?
Edit #2: Oh, and when LotV comes out, we will have to pay another 60 bucks for another beta?
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On November 12 2013 20:05 boxerfred wrote:
THIS IS NOT A FUCKING BETA
I mean, seriously. Enough changes, let it develop. Concentrate a bit more on maps or arcade or whatever but just stop treating the game as if it's a beta.
If you ruined the game, you might patch once or twice, if there is like a constant 3-5% winrate ratio difference in any matchup, okay, one might consider the game being imbalanced. But seriously, why are you guys selling HotS for 60 bucks, then go all back into beta stage again. Aarrrgh. So much rage.
And, for the most ppl here probably the least important thing: what the fuck are the new 4v4 maps about. Lol.
Yeah fuck blizzard for investing resources into trying to improve the quality of the game. They are totally scamming all of us by selling us a game and then having the balls to update it instead of allocating their time and money into other things!
Also wtf david kim why can't you perfectly predict the metagame 2 years in the future learn to do your job seriously.
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If it's queen patch for TvZ all over again i will laugh so hard. I also hope that TvZ meta won't change into mech/air turtling. We don't need another deathbally matchup.
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On November 12 2013 20:31 keglu wrote:
If it's queen patch for TvZ all over again i will laugh so hard. I also hope that TvZ meta won't change into mech/air turtling. We don't need another deathbally matchup.
old queen range = problem solved ~
btw
I will my Bw music D:
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On November 12 2013 19:44 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 19:42 iznobest wrote:On November 12 2013 19:35 Everlong wrote:On November 12 2013 19:30 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 12 2013 18:31 MockHamill wrote:
I really feel sorry for Protoss now that tanks got 2.8 attack speed. I do not think that mech can be defeated any more but maybe some Code S player can figure out a solution. This seems right. So brave from Blizz to buff the Tank so much. At least they didn't go through with the mammoth 2.7 and scaled it back to a still enormous 2.8. I played a game where one of my Immortals actually died to Tanks, 2.8 really seems broken.. What am I supposed to do now when my units actually dies when I run into 20 sieged Tanks? Blizzard, seriously, get your shit together.. when i run my bio army into tanks I also die without killing anything, thats why you dont do that. Maybe you should consider other options than trying to run your army into 20 sieged tanks No, sorry, I refuse playing a game where there are units I can't run into with my Immortals (why would you name them so?) and not come out ahead!!! What would be the purpose of my units then? Sit and wait for him to kill me?
LOL. You're actually complaining about immortals vs a mass Terran mech army? Are you serious? Basically, Immortal, ONE protoss unit is the main reason Terran DOES NOT mech vs Protoss and your complaining about the unit? Wow...you should follow up on your word to stop playing Starcraft 2 man, we don't need that type of thought process in the Starcraft 2 Community. More proof that Protoss is spoiled in the TvP matchup.
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Austria24422 Posts
On November 12 2013 20:35 exioNAntyx wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 19:44 Everlong wrote:On November 12 2013 19:42 iznobest wrote:On November 12 2013 19:35 Everlong wrote:On November 12 2013 19:30 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 12 2013 18:31 MockHamill wrote:
I really feel sorry for Protoss now that tanks got 2.8 attack speed. I do not think that mech can be defeated any more but maybe some Code S player can figure out a solution. This seems right. So brave from Blizz to buff the Tank so much. At least they didn't go through with the mammoth 2.7 and scaled it back to a still enormous 2.8. I played a game where one of my Immortals actually died to Tanks, 2.8 really seems broken.. What am I supposed to do now when my units actually dies when I run into 20 sieged Tanks? Blizzard, seriously, get your shit together.. when i run my bio army into tanks I also die without killing anything, thats why you dont do that. Maybe you should consider other options than trying to run your army into 20 sieged tanks No, sorry, I refuse playing a game where there are units I can't run into with my Immortals (why would you name them so?) and not come out ahead!!! What would be the purpose of my units then? Sit and wait for him to kill me? LOL. You're actually complaining about immortals vs a mass Terran mech army? Are you serious? Basically, Immortal, ONE protoss unit is the main reason Terran DOES NOT mech vs Protoss and your complaining about the unit? Wow...you should follow up on your word to stop playing Starcraft 2 man, we don't need that type of thought process in the Starcraft 2 Community. More proof that Protoss is spoiled in the TvP matchup.
If anything it's proof of your sarcasm detector malfunctioning very, very hard
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Not sad with this changes, not happy neither, the change to the mine was the one I expected but better is nothing... The buff to the burrowed roach is welcome, that can make some sick plays, but don't think David Kim is going to nerf the mine & mule till all the Ts wins all their matches 3-0 or, at least, it looks that way.
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EPT
