EPT
). But it will make look TvT less stupid. Plus it adds a gas cost to a tech unit, yes the hellbat is actually a slow moving TECH unit. Which means that you gotta pay some gas and invest some tech time when you want that tech unit which sounds reasonable to me.Opinion on hellbat drop play - Page 8
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D4V3Z02
Germany693 Posts
). But it will make look TvT less stupid. Plus it adds a gas cost to a tech unit, yes the hellbat is actually a slow moving TECH unit. Which means that you gotta pay some gas and invest some tech time when you want that tech unit which sounds reasonable to me. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
Since Terran is having small issues with Air harassment overall if they move out it would be interesting to see how 75 Mineral Turrets work. (Or scrabable so Mech can take their static air defense with them muahaha) But I don't really mind if they delay Hellbats with an upgrade. But it would be rather nice if they make Hellion upgrades not as expensive, just like the Banshee cloak. Atleast it would give Terran a reason to get a techlab. And I agree that Terran would need a compensation if they make the hellbat any worse. At the end it is the same as WoL beginning with Mech. People run head on without any preparation into slow units with their speedy ones and wonder why they die horribly. And Blizzard even reacts to that. So that we end up with Storm that only weakens low hp units. | ||
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spirates
Sweden148 Posts
I really dont like the proposed hellbat nerf. Hellbats drops are only OP in TvT. Both zerg and toss have very easy to defend against them. And this is basicually what david kim said, that they are op in tvt and not in any other matchup. Going through with this change will hurt TvP and TvZ matchups, it will lead to both toss and especially zerg being able to play way greedier, leading to better ecos for them. Hellbats drops is pretty much the only aggression a mech terran can do early game, so removing this will make your opponent supersafe, and they will know it and just play extremely greedy. | ||
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Sephiren
United States85 Posts
... .. I'm sorry, what is the point of this thread? It seems to be to state the obvious, or to define the term nerf and give examples of the use of the word. To be honest, Terrans aren't hellbat dropping Zergs and Protoss' every game, and I doubt the win rate of terrans who used early hellbat drops vs. games where they didn't aren't dissimilar, though I obviously can't say for sure without the data (it would be interesting to know if it's out there somewhere). If those win rates are in fact similar, a nerf would not have much of an effect on the most common marine/marauder/mine/medivac builds. Then, if it's only a problem in TvT, then it's only an aesthetic problem of the match up, since you obviously can't have a balance issue there. Therefore you wouldn't want to buff something else that would have an effect on the other match ups. Blizzard could resort to what they did with spore crawlers and give turrets +damage to medivacs or some other ridiculous buff. | ||
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D4V3Z02
Germany693 Posts
On July 04 2013 08:26 Sephiren wrote: So if I read this OP correctly, it in fact states (simply more verbose) that a nerf weakens a race, and that if you were to nerf (or weaken) a race that is balanced (according to win rate statistics), then without a buff, said race would become underpowered. ... .. I'm sorry, what is the point of this thread? It seems to be to state the obvious, or to define the term nerf and give examples of the use of the word. To be honest, Terrans aren't hellbat dropping Zergs and Protoss' every game, and I doubt the win rate of terrans who used early hellbat drops vs. games where they didn't aren't dissimilar, though I obviously can't say for sure without the data (it would be interesting to know if it's out there somewhere). If those win rates are in fact similar, a nerf would not have much of an effect on the most common marine/marauder/mine/medivac builds. Then, if it's only a problem in TvT, then it's only an aesthetic problem of the match up, since you obviously can't have a balance issue there. Therefore you wouldn't want to buff something else that would have an effect on the other match ups. Blizzard could resort to what they did with spore crawlers and give turrets +damage to medivacs or some other ridiculous buff. Blizzard has this data and David Kim has already made a statement to the Hellbat issue, why are you thinking he made that post? | ||
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DaemonX
545 Posts
I'd just point out the proposed nerf Blizzard put out the other day addresses some of your concern - by adding the blue flame research cost to the bonus to light, the hellbat is the same unit late-game, and drops are still viable just much SLOWER. The banshee buff by reducing research and speed cost is another decent approach, because banshees wont become core combat units, just way more viable as harass. I don't agree that hellbats take good micro. They are slow and short-ranged. Banshees require far better micro. | ||
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Bodzilla
Australia472 Posts
Hellbat drops are easy to do them, theres shit all risk and theres an ENORMOUS reward. they need to make it so they atleast dont 2 shot workers to give that little bit more time to defend against them. Thats all they need. I'm a terran player. | ||
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qGSkipper
United States37 Posts
Hellbat drops don't seem to be as big of an issue in TvP, but this change would make hellbats easier to deal with using stalkers. The only potential problem is in ZvT banelings won't deal as cleanly with hellbats. If this isn't too big of a deal I feel this change could do well. There may be other negative implications of this change that I overlooked. | ||
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captainwaffles
United States1050 Posts
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
You probably have 16 SCV's on minerals in your main by the time hellbats arrive. For every second that you pull all 16 away from mining, you are losing 10.66...7 minerals. So if you lose 0 SCV's and are forced to pull for 10 seconds, you have lost more than 106 minerals (I say more than because it takes time to re-establish mineral pairing). So if you get the medivac away, kill 2 SCV's and have them pull workers you have made a cost efficient trade (if not gained a lead) even with losing both hellbats. Anybody care to see how often all 16 workers are pulled and for how long in an average game? | ||
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Green_25
Great Britain696 Posts
I don't have a problem with the unit in principle, but the fact is it just does too much damage without upgrades. | ||
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i zig zag around you
70 Posts
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iky43210
United States2099 Posts
On July 04 2013 03:04 MattD wrote: Do you think nearly every zerg is complaining about them just for the hell of it? Theres no reason to do anything but hellbat drop s in tvz, potentially game ending damage and if zerg defends it perfectly its not even an advantage for zerg. yes, zerg complains about everything. few months ago mine was beyond broken. then reapersm medviacs, and now apparently hellbats and soon bc/raven | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On July 04 2013 10:41 iky43210 wrote: yes, zerg complains about everything. few months ago mine was beyond broken. then reapersm medviacs, and now apparently hellbats and soon bc/raven Every race complains about everything that gives them trouble, stop being so dramatic. | ||
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Beatmania
England33 Posts
1. They can happen relatively quickly 2. They produce equivalent if not greater than cost to defend. 3. They have a good amount of health. 4. They burst down scvs extremely quickly. 5. They can be healed. As of right now there is no real risk to reward ratio going on. Even if the hellbats die they are generally going to trade for a few scvs first and this is the main problem. So which area would benefit a nerf without changing the dynamics of the other matchups and this unit too hard? We could question maybe some kind of delay to the time they can come out, but in their current form they have added a large amount of diversity in TvZ and TvP which is a change in the right direction. So I don't believe that would be for the best. Would it be possible to somehow make it cost less to defend against them without skewing all of the other balance? probably not. Changing their health or damage would also create too many balance hiccups in other matchups. So with all that said. In my humble opinion the problem is healing. And honestly I don't see why they cannot just remove the healing altogether. Drops could still happen and it would still punish people for not being prepared. But that window of time where the hellbat lives a few seconds longer and kills all your defensive units would be gone. And it may make hellbats in the other matchup worse. But as they are always used with bio, it just means the terran would have to protect the hellbats from damage a little more (EG tucking them tightly behind marauders). I really don't see the need for healing in mech where starport usage is usually much better spent on Vikings. And if that were too heavy a change, the other possible solution is to make the ability for them to heal a 100/100 armory upgrade. Delaying the ability to heal the hellbats for a minute or so and also making it a much larger investment in the early game. I might be retarded but I feel like that would fix a lot of the problems without changing too much drastically. | ||
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double1185
Vietnam211 Posts
More then that - on non-pro level, terrans won't be able to win against other races, because hellbats are the only attacking unit of terran with a small multitask/micro requirement. You seem to forget WM, or maybe u list it as attacking unit of terran with no multitask/micro requirement lol. As a Z I think Hellbat not only a great additional option for harass but for mech as well, seeing now mech terran can push much faster than before since now they have a splash damage option to clear ling surround without friendly fire or even the need to micro (for hellion at least u need to keep them at the back for a thor with hellbat A move is more than needed). | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On July 04 2013 00:02 Wakimomo wrote: Blizzard should definitely remove speedboost from medivacs and give it to hellbats. Also nerf the build timing of spawningpool to maybe 4 minutesish, 6 pool is so OP nowadays, remove warpgate while your at it too. No, speedboost is WAY too important for medivacs, it brought back a lot of maneuvers that ceased being possible as people got better in WoL. | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
On July 04 2013 14:12 Liquid`Jinro wrote: No, speedboost is WAY too important for medivacs, it brought back a lot of maneuvers that ceased being possible as people got better in WoL. Agreed medivac boost is sweet you gotta keep that shit. | ||
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RHGaming
United States83 Posts
On July 03 2013 20:57 Markwerf wrote: I agree terran should receive a small buff in response. Hellbat drops are hardly used in TvZ and TvP though and many top terrans even state that it's not even good play which I kind of agree with if you're playing the regular bio styles. Hellbats are quite solid lategame TvP though, the range is a pretty moot point given they'll be fighting zealots mostly. The buff in return should be very small though because terran 'losing' hellbat drops is a very small nerf for them given how easily you can play without it. Just rolling in the damage with blueflame will probably happen, hellbats down to 21 or 22 damage will still keep drops viable in TvP/TvZ since it's all about 2 shotting workers anyway and after blueflame they could have normal stats. In return slightly reducing blueflame and transformation servos costs to not hurt mech overall should be fine. Banshee buff or even thor buff would also be fine I think. It will probably affect TvT mostly and terrans might not add in hellbats anymore in lategame TvP because it would be too much of a hassle. Some hellbat timings in TvZ might also be gone. Overall i'd love to see the early hellbat drops be a bit rarer, they are just boring and feel so silly that a 300/100 total cost of dropship + 2 hellbats often still does damage against turret and marines. I'd also like to see blueflame hellions and transformation actually be used, it seems a bit silly that a transformation is rarely used just because it's more effective to straight up make hellbats. I seriously can't remember ever seeing hellbats transform in pro games (maybe some of yours but haven't seen them). I completely disagree with your opinion that they're useless in TvZ. Hellbat drops have near zero risk and a high chance of doing damage when done correctly (in my opinion). Im not saying they 100% need a nerf at this point but I'd keep a very very close eye out for it. | ||
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RHGaming
United States83 Posts
On July 04 2013 14:12 Liquid`Jinro wrote: No, speedboost is WAY too important for medivacs, it brought back a lot of maneuvers that ceased being possible as people got better in WoL. I'm sure he was trolling there. | ||
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