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On July 03 2013 21:27 Sated wrote:
I love how you go from:
"If we don't count drops in the beginning, hellbats are not that good..."
To:
"... with hellbat nerf, Blizzard will need to give [an]other strong weapon for mech terrans."
Classic.
User was temp banned for this post.
Exactly how i felt when i read the post too. I wonder who temp banned for pointing out what was stated clearly.
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It's bad design again and i think he's off the money. Hellbats are too fucking cheap in terms of opportunity cost and raw cost for the very easy damage that they do. Especially in combination with the godly fast medivac. They should have had other options on the table when they were designing HoTS. When It was obvious that they couldnt get mech to work without a massive rejig they should have axed the hellbat and gotten something else in line (or maybe switch the damage for more health- maybe).
Only thing I like about the hell bat is that it kinda kills most of the arguments against having a reaver.
I think Bronze is probably on the money in terms of the connundrum faced. Rabiator also correct as usual about Blizzard forgetting that constraints and limitations are as important to a decent strategy as "buffing everything".
Idk Strelok's silence during periods of time where TvX was broken mnnn.
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On July 03 2013 21:55 Sissors wrote:In general I agree with Strelok, however: There I disagree. At least in TvT I switched from bio-mech to mech because of hellbats in mid-late game: The frontal assault of a mech terran on a bio-mech terran is so enormously strong with hellbats. First because hellbats tank way more tank shots than bio will ever do. Second because loading a few medivacs with hellbats and dropping them right on top of the enemies army is so strong.
Certainly they are powerful in the midgame, but I find that their usefulness starts dropping in main army confrontations as the game progresses. They are sort of like roaches in this sense - sure, at around 12-15 minutes a hellbat/mech or hellbat/bio composition can have tons of straight up pushing power, and the effect of that is to stop overly greedy play.
A 2-base terran push can usually kill off the 3rd base, but a 3-base terran push can usually be deflected. Overall, if you scout and react accordingly by preparing appropriate defenses or countermeasures (for example, if you scout mech/hellbat coming, it would be wise to hide some units somewhere in the map for a potential flank), then you will be able to defend.
Lategame, every race has plenty of options which make hellbats merely a decent unit - colossi, templars, air, critical tank counts, swarm hosts, ultras...
That's merely my opinion though, which holds pretty much no value. 
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On July 04 2013 04:04 sva wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 03:58 sibs wrote:Terran's seem to be suffering from cognitive dissonance here pretty badly, first they point out why it's so hard to defend it in TvT, then they conveniently don't apply that to TvZ TvP. lol  It's much easier to defend in tvp with stalkers, zealots, and a mothership core. TvZ is pretty easy to defend because you already have queens that can take out the medivacs and don't get raped by the hellbats, spore crawlers do crazy damage to medivacs. As someone who plays random from time to time, it is much more difficult to defend in TvT.
Terrible post i have to say, so much misinformation in it
Liquipedia stats :
Zerg Spores do Air DPS:17.4
Terran Turrets do Air DPS:27.9
Terran has all the units\structures required to stop Hellbat Drops. In fact the first unit available out of a Barracks hard counters Hellbats:-
Marines Range 5 v Hellbats Range 2
Do what Zerg and Protoss players do, pull workers, target Medivacs then kill Hellbats.
This is a skill issue nothing more, learn to scout , learn to react, learn to micro
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Dude, Zergs have queens so hellbats always autoattack queens on landing. Terran has to micro each hellbat attack. And Protoss has planetary nexus, which guarantees dropship dying, and again hellbats auto attack nexus and cannons so hellbats have to be micro'd each attack.
Terrans has no such defence, the only way is so build a bunker with marines as well as a turret. This costs 400+ minerals, which is helluva lot more than a cannon or a spore. Hellbat drops are only good in TvT, in other matchups it's just used to annoy opponent and to take away apm so that whoever multitask better comes out on top.
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On July 04 2013 04:40 Topdoller wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 04:04 sva wrote:On July 04 2013 03:58 sibs wrote:Terran's seem to be suffering from cognitive dissonance here pretty badly, first they point out why it's so hard to defend it in TvT, then they conveniently don't apply that to TvZ TvP. lol It's much easier to defend in tvp with stalkers, zealots, and a mothership core. TvZ is pretty easy to defend because you already have queens that can take out the medivacs and don't get raped by the hellbats, spore crawlers do crazy damage to medivacs. As someone who plays random from time to time, it is much more difficult to defend in TvT. Terrible post i have to say, so much misinformation in it Liquipedia stats : Zerg Spores do Air DPS:17.4 Terran Turrets do Air DPS:27.9 Terran has all the units\structures required to stop Hellbat Drops. In fact the first unit available out of a Barracks hard counters Hellbats:- Marines Range 5 v Hellbats Range 2 Do what Zerg and Protoss players do, pull workers, target Medivacs then kill Hellbats. This is a skill issue nothing more, learn to scout , learn to react, learn to micro
No he's completely right about Hellbat drops being more difficult to defend efficiently in TvT compared with TvP or TvZ, and you're the one posting something terrible with random numbers saying nothing about the actual scenarii occuring in games or simply the different dynamics of TvP, TvT and TvZ. Suggesting that Marines "hardcounter" Hellbats because they have +3 range is absolutely laughable. Please watch Bogus vs aLive, Whirlwind, WCS Global Finals and do come back telling us with a straight face how Marines "hardcounter" Hellbats.
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Just nerf the healing ability of MedVacs upon Hellbats. It seems perfect.
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I personally think that we should wait like one year and only nerf if terran are dominating, not if there is 53-47 or something in favor of terran ..
Hellbat is probably the most cost effective low gas unit in the game but it has weaknesses too so.. we will see :p
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The whole anti-hellbat sentiment just came out the BO5 between MVP and Innovation. This is absurd. It's completely the Ghost's snipe all over again.
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First complaint: Widow Mine drops, too hard to deal with.
Second complaint: Can't get third because of Bio drops.
Third complaint: Hellbat drops.
It's the Medivac guys, it's insane, look at it... We even saw Lucifron doing a Thor drop for christ sake, wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing Vikings load up in Medivacs to get places faster.
There needs to be an energy cost on the afterburner, so you don't just macro it all the time.
Hellbats as units are fine, they need to be good if they're to compete with Marines which has been the best mineral dump for Terrans since forever.
You all also seem to forget that metagame changes, knew stuff gets discovered, when it isn't going too well for the race. Terran has enough tools to deal with a nerf to the hellbat drop.
Sorry for ranting, but I'd also like to suggest that it would be good to reduce the cargo size of Hellbats back to what it was, if there were to be a nerf to the very imbalanced Medivac!
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So, terrans are like:
Hellbat OP nerf this shit now! But nerf it only for TvT because in the other MU's they're quite good, not an issue at all.
someone should add a trollface at those posts.
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On July 03 2013 20:42 Strelok wrote:Many people are complainting about hellbat drop play. Zergs, protosses and some terrans who want to play bio in TvT and struggle hard against mech style (Taeja, Bomber, MKP, Tarson e.t.c). Yes, hellbat drops openers are one of the strongest openers for terran. But why is that so hard to nerf it for Blizzard? BalanceI would say now balance is rather close to be called "good". June statistics shows some advantage for protosses, but still. Some race will always have small advantage. It doesn't mean balance is bad overall. So if you take one of the strongest terran weapons away, you need to give them other weapon. If there won't be a hellbat drop possibility, zergs and protosses won't make fast defences and will do way better eco, so terran win rate will fall drastically (as it was already in WoL when "queens instead of sunkens" eco stuff brought huge zerg domination). So what weapon can substitute hellbat drops? Only a banshee. But if you nerf hellbat and raise banshee what will it change in game? Everyone will stop using hellbat drops and start using banshee. And there will be complaints about imba banshees from zergs, protosses and those terrans who don't like banshee and would like to use hellbat drops more. More then that - on non-pro level, terrans won't be able to win against other races, because hellbats are the only attacking unit of terran with a small multitask/micro requirement. Role of hellbats in gameIf we don't count drops in the beginning, hellbats are not that good. Their HP/Range make them rather bad choice for late game. Usually you just make 5-6 to tank damage. So if you nerf the possibility of their using in beginning, you will receive 1 more useless unit in game. Possibility to mech game (especially in TvP)Even now - TvP meching is way harder then bioing. If you nerf hellbats - it will be almost impossible. Yes, it damages mech terrans, like me - way more, but i am sure it has always to be a possibility to play mech for people who don't want to play bio. So with hellbat nerf, Blizzard will need to give other strong weapon for mech terrans. What do i propose?I don't propose to nerf hellbats or not to nerf. All i want to say - Blizzard needs to do everything very ACCURATE and CAREFULL, otherwise you will receive same stuff as it was in WoL, when "small raise of queens and overlord speed" leaded to a total zerg domination until HotS and the retirement of many terran players. For those who can't understand what i mean, i say straight:1. Every nerf weakens race. 2. Terran is not imba now, so you don't need to nerf it.3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something. 4. And this buff has to affect mech more then bio, because nerf of hellbats affects mech play more then bio.
False. Terran Imba. Sorry.
This is a bunch of balonie Strelok lol come on man you can't pretend Terran players throwing units away with minimal unit control while rapidly expanding the map and never falling behind is "not imba". Terran can expand and throw away units constantly because they are able to ALWAYS trade cost efficiently lol....this is not arguable.
The best way to deal with hellbats is increase cost to 100/25 instead of 100/0 lol just add 25 gas to cost and the ridiculous cost effectiveness is mitigated but still completely viable...
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On July 04 2013 05:01 FrozenProbe wrote:
So, terrans are like:
Hellbat OP nerf this shit now! But nerf it only for TvT because in the other MU's they're quite good, not an issue at all.
someone should add a trollface at those posts.
So then please, genius. Tell us how Blizzard should nerf Hellbats, without knocking down Terran to a win rate significantly lower than 50%. Right now the win rates are fairly close. Roughly 50% for all matchups. Now, let's look at this scenario. We nerf a Terran unit, in a matchup that does not seem Terran favored (statistically), what do we expect would happen?
I'm all for a nerf to Hellbats... in TvT. Other matchups are very even in numbers and in Korea Protoss actually outperformed Terran. I agree that Hellbats are a terrible unit, they made me quit the game. But you can't just go "herp derp nerf terran units" risking a shift in balance in favor of one of the other two races. because again, last month, in korea protoss already outperformed Terran.
Now granted there weren't that many games played (roughly 100 in TvP), but surely you would need at least some evidence to support your argument that TvP and TvZ are broken matchups and it's not in the numbers. So were did you get that assertion from? Or are we not substantiating our claims with actual evidence anymore?
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On July 03 2013 20:42 Strelok wrote:
3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something.
Fix one thing that's broken, then make something else broken too? But why?
If they nerf it slightly, like making the dmg vs light normal again, it'll make the game better balanced.
Let's be honest, not only in TvT (where even terrans see how OP it is but don't like to admit it for other matchups) but in TvZ/TvP too, hellbats are quite ridiculously cost efficient.
For the cheap cost of only minerals, there's no other unit that does so much for so little and is also with so much hp.
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On July 04 2013 05:17 synd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 20:42 Strelok wrote:
3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something. Fix one thing that's broken, then make something else broken too? But why? If they nerf it slightly, like making the dmg vs light normal again, it'll make the game better balanced. Let's be honest, not only in TvT (where even terrans see how OP it is but don't like to admit it for other matchups) but in TvZ/TvP too, hellbats are quite ridiculously cost efficient. For the cheap cost of only minerals, there's no other unit that does so much for so little and is also with so much hp.
Did you skip my post in which I explained why that is not an option? Protoss is already doing better than Terran in Korea. You nerf Terran, without any compensation. What do you expect would happen? Serious question. This is basic logic. I'm sure you can answer it.
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On July 03 2013 20:42 Strelok wrote:
Balance
I would say now balance is rather close to be called "good". June statistics shows some advantage for protosses, but still. Some race will always have small advantage. It doesn't mean balance is bad overall. So if you take one of the strongest terran weapons away, you need to give them other weapon. If there won't be a hellbat drop possibility, zergs and protosses won't make fast defences and will do way better eco, so terran win rate will fall drastically (as it was already in WoL when "queens instead of sunkens" eco stuff brought huge zerg domination). So what weapon can substitute hellbat drops? Only a banshee. But if you nerf hellbat and raise banshee what will it change in game? Everyone will stop using hellbat drops and start using banshee. And there will be complaints about imba banshees from zergs, protosses and those terrans who don't like banshee and would like to use hellbat drops more. More then that - on non-pro level, terrans won't be able to win against other races, because hellbats are the only attacking unit of terran with a small multitask/micro requirement.
I don't think Blizzard has mentioned removing the Hellbat from the game. So, I don't know where you get the idea that one of the strongest terran weapons is going to be taken away. If it is going to be nerfed - by no means certain - getting a buff elsewhere will depend on the nature of the nerf, and if a corresponding buff is necessary (either for balance reasons and/or for gameplay reasons). I'm not sure about the second part of your post, you seem to believe that P and Z will simply stop defending drops when a good part of SC2 thus far, for both races, has been defending T drop play.
Basically, you don't have an argument here. Other than: I've grown used to strong Hellbat drops. If you take it away, I want something else to take its place. But P and Z players will complain anyway, so please leave the Hellbat in the game. Oh, and I've forgotten that I already had the best drop harass in the game (MMM etc - not to mention the addition of Widow Mines). As to the non-pro Terrans' future "struggles on ladder", you seem to have a poor opinion of your Terran brothers.
Role of hellbats in game
If we don't count drops in the beginning, hellbats are not that good. Their HP/Range make them rather bad choice for late game. Usually you just make 5-6 to tank damage. So if you nerf the possibility of their using in beginning, you will receive 1 more useless unit in game.
Hellbats are stupid unimaginative boring units. There is very little downside to them. For their cost they do far too much. Their only drawback is supposed to be their relatively slow speed and their range. However, they are well able to keep up with MM in Marine/Marauder + Hellbat compositions and their low range is mitigated by their AOE. Once you add their ability to gain mobility through the Medivac you have a unit with no real downside - other than not being able to shoot up at the sky. When watching D1 of the recent OSL, it was obvious that Artosis hates the unit. And I get why he does. The Hellbat is a similar unit to the Marauder. Another tanky unit which does a lot of damage and hard counters another unit type.
Possibility to mech game (especially in TvP)
Even now - TvP meching is way harder then bioing. If you nerf hellbats - it will be almost impossible. Yes, it damages mech terrans, like me - way more, but i am sure it has always to be a possibility to play mech for people who don't want to play bio. So with hellbat nerf, Blizzard will need to give other strong weapon for mech terrans.
Why should I care about mech or meching Terrans? I'm tired of the reeking stench of martyrdom from meching Terrans who never fail to tell all and sundry about their struggle to mech, and how much the tank needs to be buffed. Never mind what it might do to the game or to all match-ups. So far, I have yet to see the attraction of meching play from Terrans. It usually seems to be turtle and then A-move with mech composition. I'm more likely to see positional play (i.e. the style of mech rather than the composition of mech) and the slow strangling advance across the map towards a win from swarmhost based play and tempest based play (if either of these come to fruition that is - but I think the potential is there).
The real issue with mech viability, from the Terran standpoint, is the power of Bio. But, that's another discussion.
What do i propose?
I don't propose to nerf hellbats or not to nerf. All i want to say - Blizzard needs to do everything very ACCURATE and CAREFULL, otherwise you will receive same stuff as it was in WoL, when "small raise of queens and overlord speed" leaded to a total zerg domination until HotS and the retirement of many terran players.
I don't disagree with you here. SC2 is a complex and deep game, and changes need to be light and fair.
For those who can't understand what i mean, i say straight:
1. Every nerf weakens race.
2. Terran is not imba now, so you don't need to nerf it.
3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something.
4. And this buff has to affect mech more then bio, because nerf of hellbats affects mech play more then bio.
1. Not necessarily. Some nerfs may strengthen a race by forcing players to explore other strategies and styles.
2. Yes, Terran is not imbalanced right now but a nerf to the Hellbat is not necessarily a nerf to Terran.
3. Why? And if you do, what do you buff? Personally I have no objection to a light buff to the Banshee as proposed on the balance testing map (although those were a little excessive, I thought). But, even as a Protoss, I do miss the Banshee.
4. I do agree that Bio hardly needs a buff. It is already plenty strong as it is. If a buff is to come, then it does make sense that it be on the mech side. However, it still needs to be established if a buff is required. And then, if so, the nature of that buff. If the Hellbat nerf is a relatively light one then I am not sure that a corresponding buff is at all required.
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Hellbats are only powerful in conjunction with a medivac. People complain that the issue with the hellbat is that it is biological, which makes it imbalanced as a mineral only unit, but then don't acknowledge the fact that the reason that it's biological tag is even relevant is because it is supported by a higher tech gas unit, the medivac. If complaints will be made about the cost efficiency of a mineral only unit, then only look at situations where it is truly unsupported.
Without a medivac, hellbats are only good vs poorly positioned "a-move" units i.e. zealots and lings. Any unit that doesn't fall under this category has no issue disposing of a hellbat. If you isolate the hellbat, there are actually few situations where it is grossly cost efficient, for example, obvious situations which are more up to the opponent's control/positioning i.e. attacking with lings or zealots into hellbats especially in a bad position. So, as a mineral only unit, hellbats do not really overperform, unless supported by a gas unit, or in certain situations vs other mineral only units.
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I'm not sure if this is completely relevant to this discussion, however if you watch the vod of scarlett, suppy and(i can't remember who else), then you will see scarlett do the following comment in the game of QXC vs some zerg(can't remember either):
"Nobody goes hellbat drops on the korean ladder anymore, as zergs and protoss players got too good at defending them".
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On July 04 2013 05:30 qGSkipper wrote:
Hellbats are only powerful in conjunction with a medivac. People complain that the issue with the hellbat is that it is biological, which makes it imbalanced as a mineral only unit, but then don't acknowledge the fact that the reason that it's biological tag is even relevant is because it is supported by a higher tech gas unit, the medivac. If complaints will be made about the cost efficiency of a mineral only unit, then only look at situations where it is truly unsupported.
Without a medivac, hellbats are only good vs poorly positioned "a-move" units i.e. zealots and lings. Any unit that doesn't fall under this category has no issue disposing of a hellbat. If you isolate the hellbat, there are actually few situations where it is grossly cost efficient, for example, obvious situations which are more up to the opponent's control/positioning i.e. attacking with lings or zealots into hellbats especially in a bad position. So, as a mineral only unit, hellbats do not really overperform, unless supported by a gas unit, or in certain situations vs other mineral only units.
Faaaaalse.
1. Hellbats SMASH lings and zealots, regardless of if there is a medivac or not.
2. They tank pretty effin will for a 100 mineral unit.
3. it dosn't require upgrades to do it's job(hellbats are a seperate unit from hellion, so the transformer upgrade is a hellion upgrade).
4. a few of them in lategame zvt battles with marines and widowmine, will make the engagement like 10 times harder for zerg, if his army does not consist of 16 broodlords or 20 ultralisk.
All in all, if you saythat hellbats require medivacs to be uselful, you should go an play the actual game, instead of watching Day9 and take every single thing he says for granted.
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What if Blizzard..
.. made the boosters on the medivac upgrade based?
.. made the boosters on the medivac take up mana -> less healing power?
.. made the hellbat a unit that needs to be a hellion first and therefor need a upgrade to change?
.. made the hellbat a real mech unit -> can't be healed by medivacs?
Has a zerg i have huge difficulty in beating a real mech army with Hellbats, thors, tanks and vikings!
But i'm gold... so what do i know? :d
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EPT
