EPTAnyway hellbats are fine, I reckon soon people will start using skyterran vs hellbat builds.
Opinion on hellbat drop play - Page 5
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Lock0n
United Kingdom184 Posts
Anyway hellbats are fine, I reckon soon people will start using skyterran vs hellbat builds. | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On July 04 2013 01:52 BisuDagger wrote: The issue is that turrets can be erected without the need for an engineering bay. So early dts while being a threat, still have to dodge around until scan is all used up. The time it takes to build an engineering bay + turrets can be devastating, but one turret getting made in time without the ebay will spoil the riches for the DT. My point is rather, you prepare for oracles and as a side effect dts are pretty much fucked anyway. Engi bay is currently up before dts hit, so this changes nothing in dts effectiveness(as in you could get as many scans/kills as before, but the terran might be in a better spot before the dts hit). Like I've been highlighting is that the difference would be that terran could be greedier and skip the engi bay that is a requirement in current play, which is hard to judge the effects of. | ||
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Mongoose
United Kingdom190 Posts
On July 04 2013 02:38 Lock0n wrote: Solution: buff hellions. It's not like hellions do anything mid and late game in any matchup. And change the hellbat bonus damage from light to armored. Anyway hellbats are fine, I reckon soon people will start using skyterran vs hellbat builds. I'm actually with this. I'd be happy if hellbats were deleted and standard hellions had increased damage vs heavy units. Would help the issue of roach all ins in early game as well (which suck to defend against if you go for a hellion opener) | ||
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SlixSC
666 Posts
I would love to see Hellbats nerfed. Perhaps not the unit itself but definitely Hellbat drops, I don't think just removing the "bio" tag would be enough of a nerf though. They should remove the "bio" tag and maybe buff Turrets vs. Medivacs aswell. A speed medivac can fly over a turret and still unload the hellbats, that in my book is the actual problem. If a player has a turret in place and is prepared for your harrass, you shouldn't just be able to fly over it and ignore it. The problem seems less significant in TvZ and TvP because P and Z both have supply-free ways of defending the Hellbat once they are unloaded, Cannons can hit the medivac and force the hellbat's AI to attack it and so can spine crawlers or spore crawlers. A terran on the other hand would have to put a bunker behind every mineral line (100 mins) and 4 supply worth of units into it (200 mins), ideally with a turret (another 100 mins). edit: On 2 base that's a solid 800 mins investment and 8 supply of units, just to be safe vs 1 medivac speed boosting around with hellbats. Not even counting the cost of the engineering bay which you are forced to build now and could happily skip in WoL TvT if you scouted no banshees. So while there are supply-free ways for P and Z to mitigate Hellbat damage, Terran always has to invest supply and more minerals into achieving the same and if you do that and your opponent just doesnt drop you have effectively wasted supply and money on defending something that never actually hit you. In a mirror that is especially painful. former high master/low gm here (before I quit thx to hellbats), in case it matters. | ||
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dshsdhk
Korea (South)61 Posts
And also the problem isnt just the drop play that is broken, but the unit itself too. Even the koreans progamers admits that the unit need big nerf, my example is one of these koreans which play @ NA told me that, when i lost a game vs him to mass hellbats with few tanks when i attacked him with 160 pop of roaches. And im top 20gm i didnt 1A him my attack was pretty solid with decent spread out to avoid splash from tanks and hellbats and the guy still defended. Since when hellbats were supposed to kill roaches? There isnt a counter to hellbats, especially for zergs, the unit is good and cost effective vs anything. Blizzard balance team must be blind or something, protoss is the best race in the game and they buff warp prism (TOTALLY UNNECESSARY, this will broke pvz because zerg cant deal with warp prisms as terrans for example). So they buffed warp prism instead of nerfing hellbats first. I honestly have no idea what they are doing. All they have to do is remove bio tag + associate the blue flame with hellbat, so hellbats at beguining wont deal 30 damage @ mineral lines and zergling especially... | ||
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AlphaMan
13 Posts
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pmp10
3390 Posts
On July 04 2013 02:38 Lock0n wrote: Solution: buff hellions. It's not like hellions do anything mid and late game in any matchup. And change the hellbat bonus damage from light to armored. And as a next step let's completely rework ghosts? That's not going to happen as the change is far too drastic and wouldn't even be tried in beta. Especially since the old mass blue-flame hellions would easily be back and overpower roaches. There is no good way to tackle hellbats since they have been added to game without thinking. If mech play would work without them a compensated nerf could be fine but as is you could just as well sledgehammer nerf the marine and expect bio play to be fine. | ||
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intense555
United States474 Posts
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Lock0n
United Kingdom184 Posts
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intense555
United States474 Posts
On July 04 2013 02:56 pmp10 wrote: And as a next step let's completely rework ghosts? That's not going to happen as the change is far too drastic and wouldn't even be tried in beta. Especially since the old mass blue-flame hellions would easily be back and overpower roaches. lol? old BF upgrade didn't affect damage v armored only gave a +10 bonus to light, instead of +5. That nerf made it so BF hellions would no longer 2 shot workers and marines, but honestly I feel like that would be fine in current meta game and skill level of everyone. | ||
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MattD
United Kingdom83 Posts
On July 04 2013 02:51 AlphaMan wrote: Hellbats are fine in all match ups except for TvT. Somehow they need to be just nerfed in one matchup while maintaining their strength in other matchups... difficult to do Do you think nearly every zerg is complaining about them just for the hell of it? Theres no reason to do anything but hellbat drop s in tvz, potentially game ending damage and if zerg defends it perfectly its not even an advantage for zerg. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5219 Posts
Because Marines can be mixed easily with Mech units to create powerful timings, it is hard to buff the base Mech units too much (unless there is a corresponding nerf to Marines). Hellbats are an attempt by Blizzard to create another mineral only unit, specifically for Mech players. The problem is pretty simple, Marines are really, really good, and thus if the Hellbat doesn't warrant it's cost, then people will just go back to building Marines. If it is too good, then people won't build Marines, they will build Hellbats. That leaves Blizzard in a very difficult position, and it has tried to carefully balance Hellbats. Unfortunately, Blizzard hasn't done a great job, as the Hellbat is best used a harass unit. But it is also the best unit in the game when it comes to killing light units. People have run tests showing that light units (Zerglings and Zealots) are far less effective versus Hellbats than Colossus or Archons. So I understand why Protoss players have issues with the unit. There is something wrong when 4 Hellbats (400 minerals, 0 gas) are better than two Archons (200 minerals/600 gas if made with HT's) in almost every situation. Removing the Bio Tag is probably a good start. But in the end the Hellbat is just poorly designed. It could be so different. It doesn't need to be so weak, cheap and a transformation of the Hellion. It also doesn't need to only cost minerals. Imagine if the Warhound had two big twin flame throwers and cost a lot. Something like that is what Blizzard should have made. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On July 04 2013 01:10 aka_star wrote: Blizzard has tried to be careful by gathering feedback from everyone, what more 'caution' do you want them to do?, perhaps sit around a table for another year cautiously planning a single change while the game continues in this manner?. The complaints are that the risk/reward makes hell bat drops a stable choice and that's only going to stagnate Terran over time, the games for spectators become stales and everyone ends up cheering for the underdog which we saw in WoL when Z were getting slaughtered by everything and the Nerf fell on T patch after patch. Blizzard doesnt need "more caution" ... they need to get rid of "their vision of the game" which includes ridiculously dumb mottos such as ...
That isnt the whole list though, but the gist of it is that they are not interested in developing a free and creative game but only one which conforms to their vision of it. Kinda like a game with only quick time events to "play through" and no real meaningful alternatives. | ||
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NightOfTheDead
Lithuania1711 Posts
@OP do the pro players of other races agree on your stance, cause it may be biased. Also, you wont know something before you experience it. I see the point very well, but blizz has done a lot of reversals, so trying out nerfed hellbats wont be a big deal if it is done 'reasonably'. In case Terrans find this too much, it always can be reversed. There shouldn't be one style in TvT, like hellbat drops are becoming main stay. Either way it is too cost effective for what it does. | ||
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Lock0n
United Kingdom184 Posts
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On July 04 2013 03:31 Lock0n wrote: Actually remove light tag from hellions and SCVs and problem solved. That makes them less vulnerable against Banelings too ... great suggestion! [/sarcasm off] | ||
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sibs
635 Posts
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sva
United States748 Posts
On July 04 2013 03:58 sibs wrote: Terran's seem to be suffering from cognitive dissonance here pretty badly, first they point out why it's so hard to defend it in TvT, then they conveniently don't apply that to TvZ TvP. lol It's much easier to defend in tvp with stalkers, zealots, and a mothership core. TvZ is pretty easy to defend because you already have queens that can take out the medivacs and don't get raped by the hellbats, spore crawlers do crazy damage to medivacs. As someone who plays random from time to time, it is much more difficult to defend in TvT. | ||
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Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
On July 04 2013 01:16 MannerzMan wrote: As true as this may be, The hellbat attacks when dropped. Its priority of attack is the nearest thing attacking it first, then the nearest thing second. So having a tank or a spine or a cannon in the mineral line is essential to reducing hellbats dmg for its harass henceforth giving you that little extra time. A good point about their target priority. But I still advocate for a delay on attack during the drop. This will help Terrans defend better also, correct? Because hellbats do not auto-target turrets if SCVs are near. Then terrans do suffer the most from hellbat drops for yet another reason. And this will be the same issue with spores vs. sunkens... as a Z build at least 1 sunken before spore. But if you give the hellbat drop a delay on attack, it will help everyone defend against them equally. And you have the option of doing it without having to spend as much on static defense. Really, delay on attack makes the most sense to me at this point if it needs to be nerfed. | ||
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Lock0n
United Kingdom184 Posts
On July 04 2013 03:39 Rabiator wrote: That makes them less vulnerable against Banelings too ... great suggestion! [/sarcasm off] It's not like needing 3 banelings instead of 2 to kill 30 workers makes a difference, and how often are games decided by banelings attacking scvs anyway. Baneling busts rely on banelings to blow up bunkers/walls, then zerglings and roaches can kill the scvs. You only send banelings to scvs when there's like 20 of them clumped up. Once zerg is into production facilities then it's game over, doesn't matter how many scvs you have. Any more zergs need tips on how to play? [/sarcasm on] | ||
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