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I find this thread funny because i remember zergs saying the same thing about the infestor all the way up to HotS.
(If you nerf this then please buff something else yada yada yada  )
Anyways i feel as though i have to disagree with Strelok that hellbats suck mid to late game, ESPECIALLY since watching many streams and tournaments i see 'mech' armies consisting of like 4-5 tanks and like 25-30 hellbats (MLG illusion i think it was vs Incontrol) And that is vs protoss. incontrol's army got destroyed (he only won one because of those dts lol).
I've played against terrans (i'm zerg) back when i did roach hydra who would load up 5 medivacs of hellbats and as his bio army came in to fight his medivacs would come in from the side and drop them, dealing significant damage and tanking a lot of damage as well.
Hellbats also never really lose their ability against speedlings vs zerg at all, obviously they don't do well vs zerg late game tech, (specifically infestor/ultra/bane) but that is because there are no light units for them to kill, But until a zerg reaches that point hellbats are amazing with bio. Even if terran goes mech vs a zerg i see them in game and on streams going tank/hellbat/medivac (AA is obviously thors) with a heavy focus on hellbats as they just take soooo much to kill, especially since they can be healed via the medivacs, letting the tanks deal their damage as well.
And obviously hellbats are used most of the game vs terran as well, ESPECIALLY since they tank so much for the tanks vs bio. Demuslim just played a game where he was essentially saying that he is ahead but since the other terran was going hellbats then he really isn't.
I'm not saying they should be overnerfed like every other nerf that blizzard tends to do, But like what blizzard was thinking of of cutting the damage in half and then boosting it up to where it is now with the blue flame upgrade is exactly what it should be. they would take 3-4 shots to kill drones instead of drop and half a mineral line is dead. Honestly i don't mind where hellbats are mid to late game, its really the early game drops that are retarded and if they got this nerf it would fix exactly that. Mech players could still do the super strong hellbat drops (all be it delayed due to the upgrade needing to be researched) but then they can drop even more as the first wave.
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On July 04 2013 05:26 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 20:42 Strelok wrote:
Balance
I would say now balance is rather close to be called "good". June statistics shows some advantage for protosses, but still. Some race will always have small advantage. It doesn't mean balance is bad overall. So if you take one of the strongest terran weapons away, you need to give them other weapon. If there won't be a hellbat drop possibility, zergs and protosses won't make fast defences and will do way better eco, so terran win rate will fall drastically (as it was already in WoL when "queens instead of sunkens" eco stuff brought huge zerg domination). So what weapon can substitute hellbat drops? Only a banshee. But if you nerf hellbat and raise banshee what will it change in game? Everyone will stop using hellbat drops and start using banshee. And there will be complaints about imba banshees from zergs, protosses and those terrans who don't like banshee and would like to use hellbat drops more. More then that - on non-pro level, terrans won't be able to win against other races, because hellbats are the only attacking unit of terran with a small multitask/micro requirement.
I don't think Blizzard has mentioned removing the Hellbat from the game. So, I don't know where you get the idea that one of the strongest terran weapons is going to be taken away. If it is going to be nerfed - by no means certain - getting a buff elsewhere will depend on the nature of the nerf, and if a corresponding buff is necessary (either for balance reasons and/or for gameplay reasons). I'm not sure about the second part of your past, you seem to believe that P and Z will simply stop defending drops when a good part of SC2 thus far, for both races, has been defending T drop play. Basically, you don't have an argument here. Other than: I've grown used to strong Hellbat drops. If you take it away, I want something else to take its place. But P and Z players will complain anyway, so please leave the Hellbat in the game. Oh, and I've forgotten that I already had the best drop harass in the game (MMM etc - not to mention the addition of Widow Mines). As to the non-pro Terrans' future "struggles on ladder", you seem to have a poor opinion of your Terran brothers. Show nested quote +
Role of hellbats in game
If we don't count drops in the beginning, hellbats are not that good. Their HP/Range make them rather bad choice for late game. Usually you just make 5-6 to tank damage. So if you nerf the possibility of their using in beginning, you will receive 1 more useless unit in game.
Hellbats are stupid unimaginative boring units. There is very little downside to them. For their cost they do far too much. Their only drawback is supposed to be their relatively slow speed and their range. However, they are well able to keep up with MM in Marine/Marauder + Hellbat compositions and their low range is mitigated by their AOE. Once you add their ability to gain mobility through the Medivac you have a unit with no real downside - other than not being able to shoot up at the sky. When watching D1 of the recent OSL, it was obvious that Artosis hates the unit. And I get why he does. The Hellbat is a similar unit to the Marauder. Another tanky unit which does a lot of damage and hard counters another unit type. Show nested quote +
Possibility to mech game (especially in TvP)
Even now - TvP meching is way harder then bioing. If you nerf hellbats - it will be almost impossible. Yes, it damages mech terrans, like me - way more, but i am sure it has always to be a possibility to play mech for people who don't want to play bio. So with hellbat nerf, Blizzard will need to give other strong weapon for mech terrans.
Why should I care about mech or meching Terrans? I'm tired of the reeking stench of martyrdom from meching Terrans who never fail to tell all and sundry about their struggle to mech, and how much the tank needs to be buffed. Never mind what it might do to the game or to all match-ups. So far, I have yet to see the attraction of meching play from Terrans. It usually seems to be turtle and then A-move with mech composition. I'm more likely to see positional play (i.e. the style of mech rather than the composition of mech) and the slow strangling advance across the map towards a win from swarmhost based play and tempest based play (if either of these come to fruition that is - but I think the potential is there). The real issue with mech viability, from the Terran standpoint, is the power of Bio. But, that's another discussion. Show nested quote +
What do i propose?
I don't propose to nerf hellbats or not to nerf. All i want to say - Blizzard needs to do everything very ACCURATE and CAREFULL, otherwise you will receive same stuff as it was in WoL, when "small raise of queens and overlord speed" leaded to a total zerg domination until HotS and the retirement of many terran players.
I don't disagree with you here. SC2 is a complex and deep game, and changes need to be light and fair. Show nested quote +
For those who can't understand what i mean, i say straight:
1. Every nerf weakens race.
2. Terran is not imba now, so you don't need to nerf it.
3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something.
4. And this buff has to affect mech more then bio, because nerf of hellbats affects mech play more then bio.
1. Not necessarily. Some nerfs may strengthen a race by forcing players to explore other strategies and styles. 2. Yes, Terran is not imbalanced right now but a nerf to the Hellbat is not necessarily a nerf to Terran. 3. Why? And if you do, what do you buff? Personally I have no objection to a light buff to the Banshee as proposed on the balance testing map (although those were a little excessive, I thought). But, even as a Protoss, I do miss the Banshee. 4. I do agree that Bio hardly needs a buff. It is already plenty strong as it is. If a buff is to come, then it does make sense that it be on the mech side. However, it still needs to be established if a buff is required. And then, if so, the nature of that buff. If the Hellbat nerf is a relatively light one then I am not sure that a corresponding buff is at all required. A nerf is required, though.
This has got to be one of the worst posts I have ever read. Not because your ideas are irrational in isolation, but because they are incoherent. You say that we don't know if there needs to be a compensating buff, be it due to a lack of data, or whatever else. But then you say that a nerf is definitely required. Despite the fact that you have not presented any evidence supporting that claim, just your opinion.
So you basically made a rational assertion (we don't know) and then jumped right to borderline insanity (definitely needs a nerf). So you basically gave us your opinion, no evidence, just your opinion, but at least you used alot of words disguising it as something more than that.
And I'm not kidding by the way, jumping from "we don't know what exactly the current balance looks like so we don't know if we need to compensate any nerf with a buff" to "terran/hellbats definitely need a nerf" is almost schizophrenic and self-refuting. It's like someone pushed you off your chair and just wrote the rest of your post.
And "nerfing a terran unit does not mean you are nerfing terran"... did that not sound a little bit silly to you when you typed that out? of course it's a nerf to terran when you nerf one of their most potent units, there is no sugarcoating here, it's not a blessing in disguise either, you nerf Hellbats... you subsequently nerf Terran harrass and something gotta give. You can't have it both ways. Nerf Terran units, but don't nerf Terran. That doesn't compute.
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On July 04 2013 05:41 shell wrote:
What if Blizzard..
.. made the boosters on the medivac upgrade based?
.. made the boosters on the medivac take up mana -> less healing power?
.. made the hellbat a unit that needs to be a hellion first and therefor need a upgrade to change?
.. made the hellbat a real mech unit -> can't be healed by medivacs?
Has a zerg i have huge difficulty in beating a real mech army with Hellbats, thors, tanks and vikings!
But i'm gold... so what do i know? :d
I dunno about how much you know, but your ideas is the exact same as mine, and i'm masters :p
But i think i can answer these from as terran pov.
1. then terran would get fucked over in the aggression phase in TvP
2. (i have no clue about this one, theres literally no excuse for it not allready being ingame).
3. This would do nothing anyway.
4. because the healing is required to tank chargelots long enough.
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On July 03 2013 20:42 Strelok wrote:Many people are complainting about hellbat drop play. Zergs, protosses and some terrans who want to play bio in TvT and struggle hard against mech style (Taeja, Bomber, MKP, Tarson  e.t.c). Yes, hellbat drops openers are one of the strongest openers for terran. But why is that so hard to nerf it for Blizzard? BalanceI would say now balance is rather close to be called "good". June statistics shows some advantage for protosses, but still. Some race will always have small advantage. It doesn't mean balance is bad overall. So if you take one of the strongest terran weapons away, you need to give them other weapon. If there won't be a hellbat drop possibility, zergs and protosses won't make fast defences and will do way better eco, so terran win rate will fall drastically (as it was already in WoL when "queens instead of sunkens" eco stuff brought huge zerg domination). So what weapon can substitute hellbat drops? Only a banshee. But if you nerf hellbat and raise banshee what will it change in game? Everyone will stop using hellbat drops and start using banshee. And there will be complaints about imba banshees from zergs, protosses and those terrans who don't like banshee and would like to use hellbat drops more. More then that - on non-pro level, terrans won't be able to win against other races, because hellbats are the only attacking unit of terran with a small multitask/micro requirement. Role of hellbats in gameIf we don't count drops in the beginning, hellbats are not that good. Their HP/Range make them rather bad choice for late game. Usually you just make 5-6 to tank damage. So if you nerf the possibility of their using in beginning, you will receive 1 more useless unit in game.Possibility to mech game (especially in TvP)Even now - TvP meching is way harder then bioing. If you nerf hellbats - it will be almost impossible. Yes, it damages mech terrans, like me - way more, but i am sure it has always to be a possibility to play mech for people who don't want to play bio. So with hellbat nerf, Blizzard will need to give other strong weapon for mech terrans. What do i propose?I don't propose to nerf hellbats or not to nerf. All i want to say - Blizzard needs to do everything very ACCURATE and CAREFULL, otherwise you will receive same stuff as it was in WoL, when "small raise of queens and overlord speed" leaded to a total zerg domination until HotS and the retirement of many terran players. For those who can't understand what i mean, i say straight:1. Every nerf weakens race. 2. Terran is not imba now, so you don't need to nerf it. 3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something. 4. And this buff has to affect mech more then bio, because nerf of hellbats affects mech play more then bio.
Sorry Strelok, but this is false and ignorant to the max.
Please go watch SPL, GSL, ATC, GSTL or any other tournament featuring more than 1 korean terran, and you will see that the the midgame mech armies in TvT consists of like 5 tanks and 20-30 hellbats.
They soak dmg, they shit on tanks, and it's effectively the next best harass unit in the game (the best being mutalisk).
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On July 04 2013 05:44 SlixSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 05:26 aZealot wrote:On July 03 2013 20:42 Strelok wrote:
Balance
I would say now balance is rather close to be called "good". June statistics shows some advantage for protosses, but still. Some race will always have small advantage. It doesn't mean balance is bad overall. So if you take one of the strongest terran weapons away, you need to give them other weapon. If there won't be a hellbat drop possibility, zergs and protosses won't make fast defences and will do way better eco, so terran win rate will fall drastically (as it was already in WoL when "queens instead of sunkens" eco stuff brought huge zerg domination). So what weapon can substitute hellbat drops? Only a banshee. But if you nerf hellbat and raise banshee what will it change in game? Everyone will stop using hellbat drops and start using banshee. And there will be complaints about imba banshees from zergs, protosses and those terrans who don't like banshee and would like to use hellbat drops more. More then that - on non-pro level, terrans won't be able to win against other races, because hellbats are the only attacking unit of terran with a small multitask/micro requirement.
I don't think Blizzard has mentioned removing the Hellbat from the game. So, I don't know where you get the idea that one of the strongest terran weapons is going to be taken away. If it is going to be nerfed - by no means certain - getting a buff elsewhere will depend on the nature of the nerf, and if a corresponding buff is necessary (either for balance reasons and/or for gameplay reasons). I'm not sure about the second part of your past, you seem to believe that P and Z will simply stop defending drops when a good part of SC2 thus far, for both races, has been defending T drop play. Basically, you don't have an argument here. Other than: I've grown used to strong Hellbat drops. If you take it away, I want something else to take its place. But P and Z players will complain anyway, so please leave the Hellbat in the game. Oh, and I've forgotten that I already had the best drop harass in the game (MMM etc - not to mention the addition of Widow Mines). As to the non-pro Terrans' future "struggles on ladder", you seem to have a poor opinion of your Terran brothers.
Role of hellbats in game
If we don't count drops in the beginning, hellbats are not that good. Their HP/Range make them rather bad choice for late game. Usually you just make 5-6 to tank damage. So if you nerf the possibility of their using in beginning, you will receive 1 more useless unit in game.
Hellbats are stupid unimaginative boring units. There is very little downside to them. For their cost they do far too much. Their only drawback is supposed to be their relatively slow speed and their range. However, they are well able to keep up with MM in Marine/Marauder + Hellbat compositions and their low range is mitigated by their AOE. Once you add their ability to gain mobility through the Medivac you have a unit with no real downside - other than not being able to shoot up at the sky. When watching D1 of the recent OSL, it was obvious that Artosis hates the unit. And I get why he does. The Hellbat is a similar unit to the Marauder. Another tanky unit which does a lot of damage and hard counters another unit type.
Possibility to mech game (especially in TvP)
Even now - TvP meching is way harder then bioing. If you nerf hellbats - it will be almost impossible. Yes, it damages mech terrans, like me - way more, but i am sure it has always to be a possibility to play mech for people who don't want to play bio. So with hellbat nerf, Blizzard will need to give other strong weapon for mech terrans.
Why should I care about mech or meching Terrans? I'm tired of the reeking stench of martyrdom from meching Terrans who never fail to tell all and sundry about their struggle to mech, and how much the tank needs to be buffed. Never mind what it might do to the game or to all match-ups. So far, I have yet to see the attraction of meching play from Terrans. It usually seems to be turtle and then A-move with mech composition. I'm more likely to see positional play (i.e. the style of mech rather than the composition of mech) and the slow strangling advance across the map towards a win from swarmhost based play and tempest based play (if either of these come to fruition that is - but I think the potential is there). The real issue with mech viability, from the Terran standpoint, is the power of Bio. But, that's another discussion.
What do i propose?
I don't propose to nerf hellbats or not to nerf. All i want to say - Blizzard needs to do everything very ACCURATE and CAREFULL, otherwise you will receive same stuff as it was in WoL, when "small raise of queens and overlord speed" leaded to a total zerg domination until HotS and the retirement of many terran players.
I don't disagree with you here. SC2 is a complex and deep game, and changes need to be light and fair.
For those who can't understand what i mean, i say straight:
1. Every nerf weakens race.
2. Terran is not imba now, so you don't need to nerf it.
3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something.
4. And this buff has to affect mech more then bio, because nerf of hellbats affects mech play more then bio.
1. Not necessarily. Some nerfs may strengthen a race by forcing players to explore other strategies and styles. 2. Yes, Terran is not imbalanced right now but a nerf to the Hellbat is not necessarily a nerf to Terran. 3. Why? And if you do, what do you buff? Personally I have no objection to a light buff to the Banshee as proposed on the balance testing map (although those were a little excessive, I thought). But, even as a Protoss, I do miss the Banshee. 4. I do agree that Bio hardly needs a buff. It is already plenty strong as it is. If a buff is to come, then it does make sense that it be on the mech side. However, it still needs to be established if a buff is required. And then, if so, the nature of that buff. If the Hellbat nerf is a relatively light one then I am not sure that a corresponding buff is at all required. A nerf is required, though. This has got to be one of the worst posts I have ever read. Not because your ideas are irrational in isolation, but because they are incoherent. You say that we don't know if there needs to be a compensating buff, be it due to a lack of data, or whatever else. But then you say that a nerf is definitely required. Despite the fact that you have not presented any evidence supporting that claim, just your opinion. So you basically made a rational assertion (we don't know) and then jumped right to borderline insanity (definitely needs a nerf). So you basically gave us your opinion, no evidence, just your opinion, but at least you used alot of words disguising it as something more than that. And I'm not kidding by the way, jumping from "we don't know what exactly the current balance looks like so we don't know if we need to compensate any nerf with a buff" to "terran/hellbats definitely need a nerf" is almost schizophrenic and self-refuting. It's like someone pushed you off your chair and just wrote the rest of your post.
You are right. I put that down to posting while working. I thought about it a little and just removed that last line. I think my dislike for the Hellbat as a unit got the better of me there. It seems to me though that you are fixated on that last line and the rest of what you say neither address Strelok's post, or whatever else I said in the rest of my post (other than my "words").
Do you have anything else to add?
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On July 04 2013 05:20 SlixSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 05:17 synd wrote:On July 03 2013 20:42 Strelok wrote:
3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something. Fix one thing that's broken, then make something else broken too? But why? If they nerf it slightly, like making the dmg vs light normal again, it'll make the game better balanced. Let's be honest, not only in TvT (where even terrans see how OP it is but don't like to admit it for other matchups) but in TvZ/TvP too, hellbats are quite ridiculously cost efficient. For the cheap cost of only minerals, there's no other unit that does so much for so little and is also with so much hp. Did you skip my post in which I explained why that is not an option? Protoss is already doing better than Terran in Korea. You nerf Terran, without any compensation. What do you expect would happen? Serious question. This is basic logic. I'm sure you can answer it.
I tend to ignore non-official statistics that are pretty ..... bullshit. Except for the WCS, there are no major tournament protoss champions in the past months.
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On July 04 2013 05:54 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 05:44 SlixSC wrote:On July 04 2013 05:26 aZealot wrote:On July 03 2013 20:42 Strelok wrote:
Balance
I would say now balance is rather close to be called "good". June statistics shows some advantage for protosses, but still. Some race will always have small advantage. It doesn't mean balance is bad overall. So if you take one of the strongest terran weapons away, you need to give them other weapon. If there won't be a hellbat drop possibility, zergs and protosses won't make fast defences and will do way better eco, so terran win rate will fall drastically (as it was already in WoL when "queens instead of sunkens" eco stuff brought huge zerg domination). So what weapon can substitute hellbat drops? Only a banshee. But if you nerf hellbat and raise banshee what will it change in game? Everyone will stop using hellbat drops and start using banshee. And there will be complaints about imba banshees from zergs, protosses and those terrans who don't like banshee and would like to use hellbat drops more. More then that - on non-pro level, terrans won't be able to win against other races, because hellbats are the only attacking unit of terran with a small multitask/micro requirement.
I don't think Blizzard has mentioned removing the Hellbat from the game. So, I don't know where you get the idea that one of the strongest terran weapons is going to be taken away. If it is going to be nerfed - by no means certain - getting a buff elsewhere will depend on the nature of the nerf, and if a corresponding buff is necessary (either for balance reasons and/or for gameplay reasons). I'm not sure about the second part of your past, you seem to believe that P and Z will simply stop defending drops when a good part of SC2 thus far, for both races, has been defending T drop play. Basically, you don't have an argument here. Other than: I've grown used to strong Hellbat drops. If you take it away, I want something else to take its place. But P and Z players will complain anyway, so please leave the Hellbat in the game. Oh, and I've forgotten that I already had the best drop harass in the game (MMM etc - not to mention the addition of Widow Mines). As to the non-pro Terrans' future "struggles on ladder", you seem to have a poor opinion of your Terran brothers.
Role of hellbats in game
If we don't count drops in the beginning, hellbats are not that good. Their HP/Range make them rather bad choice for late game. Usually you just make 5-6 to tank damage. So if you nerf the possibility of their using in beginning, you will receive 1 more useless unit in game.
Hellbats are stupid unimaginative boring units. There is very little downside to them. For their cost they do far too much. Their only drawback is supposed to be their relatively slow speed and their range. However, they are well able to keep up with MM in Marine/Marauder + Hellbat compositions and their low range is mitigated by their AOE. Once you add their ability to gain mobility through the Medivac you have a unit with no real downside - other than not being able to shoot up at the sky. When watching D1 of the recent OSL, it was obvious that Artosis hates the unit. And I get why he does. The Hellbat is a similar unit to the Marauder. Another tanky unit which does a lot of damage and hard counters another unit type.
Possibility to mech game (especially in TvP)
Even now - TvP meching is way harder then bioing. If you nerf hellbats - it will be almost impossible. Yes, it damages mech terrans, like me - way more, but i am sure it has always to be a possibility to play mech for people who don't want to play bio. So with hellbat nerf, Blizzard will need to give other strong weapon for mech terrans.
Why should I care about mech or meching Terrans? I'm tired of the reeking stench of martyrdom from meching Terrans who never fail to tell all and sundry about their struggle to mech, and how much the tank needs to be buffed. Never mind what it might do to the game or to all match-ups. So far, I have yet to see the attraction of meching play from Terrans. It usually seems to be turtle and then A-move with mech composition. I'm more likely to see positional play (i.e. the style of mech rather than the composition of mech) and the slow strangling advance across the map towards a win from swarmhost based play and tempest based play (if either of these come to fruition that is - but I think the potential is there). The real issue with mech viability, from the Terran standpoint, is the power of Bio. But, that's another discussion.
What do i propose?
I don't propose to nerf hellbats or not to nerf. All i want to say - Blizzard needs to do everything very ACCURATE and CAREFULL, otherwise you will receive same stuff as it was in WoL, when "small raise of queens and overlord speed" leaded to a total zerg domination until HotS and the retirement of many terran players.
I don't disagree with you here. SC2 is a complex and deep game, and changes need to be light and fair.
For those who can't understand what i mean, i say straight:
1. Every nerf weakens race.
2. Terran is not imba now, so you don't need to nerf it.
3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something.
4. And this buff has to affect mech more then bio, because nerf of hellbats affects mech play more then bio.
1. Not necessarily. Some nerfs may strengthen a race by forcing players to explore other strategies and styles. 2. Yes, Terran is not imbalanced right now but a nerf to the Hellbat is not necessarily a nerf to Terran. 3. Why? And if you do, what do you buff? Personally I have no objection to a light buff to the Banshee as proposed on the balance testing map (although those were a little excessive, I thought). But, even as a Protoss, I do miss the Banshee. 4. I do agree that Bio hardly needs a buff. It is already plenty strong as it is. If a buff is to come, then it does make sense that it be on the mech side. However, it still needs to be established if a buff is required. And then, if so, the nature of that buff. If the Hellbat nerf is a relatively light one then I am not sure that a corresponding buff is at all required. A nerf is required, though. This has got to be one of the worst posts I have ever read. Not because your ideas are irrational in isolation, but because they are incoherent. You say that we don't know if there needs to be a compensating buff, be it due to a lack of data, or whatever else. But then you say that a nerf is definitely required. Despite the fact that you have not presented any evidence supporting that claim, just your opinion. So you basically made a rational assertion (we don't know) and then jumped right to borderline insanity (definitely needs a nerf). So you basically gave us your opinion, no evidence, just your opinion, but at least you used alot of words disguising it as something more than that. And I'm not kidding by the way, jumping from "we don't know what exactly the current balance looks like so we don't know if we need to compensate any nerf with a buff" to "terran/hellbats definitely need a nerf" is almost schizophrenic and self-refuting. It's like someone pushed you off your chair and just wrote the rest of your post. You are right. I put that down to posting while working. I thought about it a little and just removed that last line. I think my dislike for the Hellbat as a unit got the better of me there. It seems to me though that you are fixated on that last line and the rest of what you say neither address Strelok's post, or whatever else I said in the rest of my post (other than my "words").
The reason I was so fixated on that last line was because it turned a rational post into something completely incoherent. I'm glad you fixed it though.
Just to illustrate my point though.
I think nerfing the hellbat (which I agree with, I despise hellbats) requires a counter-buff to some other Terran unit.
Let's just assume, for the sake of argument, that the game is very well balanced right now (statistics, however insignificant they might seem back up this assumption).
After nerfing any unit for any race, we would have to compensate for that nerf in order to reach this equilibrium again. I pointed this out already, but this is basic logic 101.
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On July 04 2013 06:04 synd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 05:20 SlixSC wrote:On July 04 2013 05:17 synd wrote:On July 03 2013 20:42 Strelok wrote:
3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something. Fix one thing that's broken, then make something else broken too? But why? If they nerf it slightly, like making the dmg vs light normal again, it'll make the game better balanced. Let's be honest, not only in TvT (where even terrans see how OP it is but don't like to admit it for other matchups) but in TvZ/TvP too, hellbats are quite ridiculously cost efficient. For the cheap cost of only minerals, there's no other unit that does so much for so little and is also with so much hp. Did you skip my post in which I explained why that is not an option? Protoss is already doing better than Terran in Korea. You nerf Terran, without any compensation. What do you expect would happen? Serious question. This is basic logic. I'm sure you can answer it. I tend to ignore non-official statistics that are pretty ..... bullshit. Except for the WCS, there are no major tournament protoss champions in the past months.
Stardust won Dreamhack. And in Premier Tournaments Protoss had more 2nd place finishers than Terran. 3 Protoss, 2 Terran.
Now just looking at Finalists in HotS, we had 7 Terrans, 8 Zergs, 5 Protosses. There seems to be a nice distribution in top place finishers. And much of it actually comes down to individual effort. That's why we use win rates and not tournament winners or finalists to look at balance, because it so often hinges on just 1 or 2 games that turn a tournament winner into a second place finisher, or a finalist into a semi-finalist. etc..
edit. sry for doublepost
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4713 Posts
On July 04 2013 03:06 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 01:10 aka_star wrote:
Blizzard has tried to be careful by gathering feedback from everyone, what more 'caution' do you want them to do?, perhaps sit around a table for another year cautiously planning a single change while the game continues in this manner?.
The complaints are that the risk/reward makes hell bat drops a stable choice and that's only going to stagnate Terran over time, the games for spectators become stales and everyone ends up cheering for the underdog which we saw in WoL when Z were getting slaughtered by everything and the Nerf fell on T patch after patch.
Blizzard doesnt need "more caution" ... they need to get rid of "their vision of the game" which includes ridiculously dumb mottos such as ... - Siege Tank based mech is boring and players like bio more, right?
- Mobility is cool, so everyone wants to play that way, right?
- Lets not be hasty about doing anything against the deathball because "players want to play that way", right?
- More deaths and a faster game mean the game is more exciting and thus better, right?
That isnt the whole list though, but the gist of it is that they are not interested in developing a free and creative game but only one which conforms to their vision of it. Kinda like a game with only quick time events to "play through" and no real meaningful alternatives.
While I do agree with some of your points, mainly them being very stubborn, and only designing the game to fit their own vision, the problem really is right now that Tank based mech is in fact boring. The problem however, has been that they refused to go in depth about why tank based mech is boring and how they can fix it.
I dabbled in mech for about 1 month and found it to be very boring to play, especially compared to marine tank or pure bio, the problem comes from the fact that, once tanks reach a critical mass, they are incredibly powerful but, more damning, they are still easy to control. It feels like is very, very, very hard to distinguish a good mech player from an excellent one in regards just to army control, the gist of it is just being able to identify good positions, where to fight and siege and then move and siege there.
Why does SC2 mech feels so easy and so powerful, well to be its because of a couple of key factors intristicly tied to design, one of them is the ease of controlling army groups via unlimited control groups, the other is smart fire.
Unfortunately I'll have to make a small reference to BW here, and I hope people don't turn this into a BW vs SC2 discussion and just take it for what it is. Basically in BW it felt like even if terran reached a critical mass of tanks, it never felt overpowering, because it was still very difficult to control them, part of it being limited control groups and poor pathing making it so you had to either focus your efforts on achieving the same levels of concentrated fire, or being very meticulous on how you moved your tanks.
The other big problem was overkill. In BW if a zealot was dropped in a group of 20 tanks, all would shoot to kill it, in SC2, only the exact number of tanks needed to kill the zealot will shoot unless specifically commanded to do so. This feels like it, again removes a large amount of skill required to play mech because, you won't go super in depth on how you spread your tanks, sometimes you can just move across the map, just find a good nook to siege behind and siege all tanks in a clump, in BW this would have been very inefficient because of the possibility of all tanks overkilling on just a single target as well as the risk of getting zealot bombed or having mines dragged towards them.
The act of sending out units to bait tank fire is, ironically, present in TvZ MU when playing bio mine, there is a intricate little dance that goes on, the terran is pushing but at the same time must be mindful of his position and carefully place his mines along the way, the zerg is trying to snipe mines or engage you before you are ready. The zerg is trying to bait mine shots with small groups of units, the terran is trying to protect them and advance forward or force an engagement on his terms.
I think this level of back and forth play and extra care for positioning is sorely lacking from SC2 mech and, as long as it remains the way it is, I'll never support it. Funny enough in TvZ there is an artificial way to force that kind of old BW esque mechanic, its in the form of blinding cloud, it makes the terran player have to think harder about the position of his tanks and it makes controlling and moving them a lot more interesting. However there is no such thing in TvT and TvP, often times with mech also gaining air control and having vikings its very hard to do drops on to tanks and blow them up, and even if you do it the damage won't always be very high because of the lack of overkill.
Initially I was a big follower of the church of Artosis, and his talking about mech and how it should be viable, I want it to be viable as well, but I want the BW mech to be viable, not the SC2 mech.
I disagree with people saying that mech is harder to play than bio, that is only really true in TvZ, where positioning is a lot more meaningful, in TvT and TvP it feels like the hard part is only surviving and turtling for the first couple of minutes until you get a strong army, after which a lot of the excitement is gone, the ball will always be on the bio player to do damage after that point.
I'll even go so far as to say that SC2 mech play is very deathballish and akin to BL Infestor level of boredom involved at least compared to its BW counterpart, and, making it even more viable would be a terrible, terrible mistake on the level of the queen buff.
I've stayed a bit off topic now, after all this whole discussion was actually regarding hellbat drop play. In my opinion it the problem doesn't seem to be that it is too powerful to the point that it can't be defended, but rather so strong that it forces reactions so extreme to counter it, that it limits builds and diversity. This is more true in TvT then in TvZ and in TvP but even so I feel this to be reason enough to nerf them in the way Blizzard proposed.
Already we are kind of starting to see the early signs of them becoming even more dominant in TvZ and TvP in certain all-in or timing push based builds, and there is a real risk those builds could become strong enough to limit choke the metagame further.
The other side of the coin is that, price for price, hellbats are incredibly efficient, they have nearly as much HP as a zealot or roach, are more tanky because of healing from medivacs and deal more damage then roaches or zealots, and they do it in a aoe. There is no question in my mind, and has never been ever since I saw its inception, that the hellbat is a broken unit because of its strength and versatility, the only thing that keeps it from being flat out overpowered is its inability to shoot air, but for a measly 100 minerals it does far, far too much.
For the better of SC2 as a whole I think Hellbats should be nerfed, for their price they shouldn't be as tanky as they are or deal as much damage as they can deal, and their strength is gutting strategical diversity in primarily TvT and is now starting to seep into other MUs. Obviously this should be done with care, nerfing to the extend you stop seeing hellbat drops and mech still removes strategic options and makes the game a bit poorer, but the other extreme we have now, where we get too many hellbat drops, isn't much better either.
For that reason I believe a nerf to their HP might be more appropriate then their damage, say reducing it to 110 or just 100. That way they can still be dropped early, but its a lot easier to deal with it, and its a bit easier to punish and prepare for if you scout for it. It probably would be a good idea to remove their bio tag as well so they can still tank in TvP against archons.
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On July 04 2013 06:06 SlixSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 05:54 aZealot wrote:On July 04 2013 05:44 SlixSC wrote:On July 04 2013 05:26 aZealot wrote:On July 03 2013 20:42 Strelok wrote:
Balance
I would say now balance is rather close to be called "good". June statistics shows some advantage for protosses, but still. Some race will always have small advantage. It doesn't mean balance is bad overall. So if you take one of the strongest terran weapons away, you need to give them other weapon. If there won't be a hellbat drop possibility, zergs and protosses won't make fast defences and will do way better eco, so terran win rate will fall drastically (as it was already in WoL when "queens instead of sunkens" eco stuff brought huge zerg domination). So what weapon can substitute hellbat drops? Only a banshee. But if you nerf hellbat and raise banshee what will it change in game? Everyone will stop using hellbat drops and start using banshee. And there will be complaints about imba banshees from zergs, protosses and those terrans who don't like banshee and would like to use hellbat drops more. More then that - on non-pro level, terrans won't be able to win against other races, because hellbats are the only attacking unit of terran with a small multitask/micro requirement.
I don't think Blizzard has mentioned removing the Hellbat from the game. So, I don't know where you get the idea that one of the strongest terran weapons is going to be taken away. If it is going to be nerfed - by no means certain - getting a buff elsewhere will depend on the nature of the nerf, and if a corresponding buff is necessary (either for balance reasons and/or for gameplay reasons). I'm not sure about the second part of your past, you seem to believe that P and Z will simply stop defending drops when a good part of SC2 thus far, for both races, has been defending T drop play. Basically, you don't have an argument here. Other than: I've grown used to strong Hellbat drops. If you take it away, I want something else to take its place. But P and Z players will complain anyway, so please leave the Hellbat in the game. Oh, and I've forgotten that I already had the best drop harass in the game (MMM etc - not to mention the addition of Widow Mines). As to the non-pro Terrans' future "struggles on ladder", you seem to have a poor opinion of your Terran brothers.
Role of hellbats in game
If we don't count drops in the beginning, hellbats are not that good. Their HP/Range make them rather bad choice for late game. Usually you just make 5-6 to tank damage. So if you nerf the possibility of their using in beginning, you will receive 1 more useless unit in game.
Hellbats are stupid unimaginative boring units. There is very little downside to them. For their cost they do far too much. Their only drawback is supposed to be their relatively slow speed and their range. However, they are well able to keep up with MM in Marine/Marauder + Hellbat compositions and their low range is mitigated by their AOE. Once you add their ability to gain mobility through the Medivac you have a unit with no real downside - other than not being able to shoot up at the sky. When watching D1 of the recent OSL, it was obvious that Artosis hates the unit. And I get why he does. The Hellbat is a similar unit to the Marauder. Another tanky unit which does a lot of damage and hard counters another unit type.
Possibility to mech game (especially in TvP)
Even now - TvP meching is way harder then bioing. If you nerf hellbats - it will be almost impossible. Yes, it damages mech terrans, like me - way more, but i am sure it has always to be a possibility to play mech for people who don't want to play bio. So with hellbat nerf, Blizzard will need to give other strong weapon for mech terrans.
Why should I care about mech or meching Terrans? I'm tired of the reeking stench of martyrdom from meching Terrans who never fail to tell all and sundry about their struggle to mech, and how much the tank needs to be buffed. Never mind what it might do to the game or to all match-ups. So far, I have yet to see the attraction of meching play from Terrans. It usually seems to be turtle and then A-move with mech composition. I'm more likely to see positional play (i.e. the style of mech rather than the composition of mech) and the slow strangling advance across the map towards a win from swarmhost based play and tempest based play (if either of these come to fruition that is - but I think the potential is there). The real issue with mech viability, from the Terran standpoint, is the power of Bio. But, that's another discussion.
What do i propose?
I don't propose to nerf hellbats or not to nerf. All i want to say - Blizzard needs to do everything very ACCURATE and CAREFULL, otherwise you will receive same stuff as it was in WoL, when "small raise of queens and overlord speed" leaded to a total zerg domination until HotS and the retirement of many terran players.
I don't disagree with you here. SC2 is a complex and deep game, and changes need to be light and fair.
For those who can't understand what i mean, i say straight:
1. Every nerf weakens race.
2. Terran is not imba now, so you don't need to nerf it.
3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something.
4. And this buff has to affect mech more then bio, because nerf of hellbats affects mech play more then bio.
1. Not necessarily. Some nerfs may strengthen a race by forcing players to explore other strategies and styles. 2. Yes, Terran is not imbalanced right now but a nerf to the Hellbat is not necessarily a nerf to Terran. 3. Why? And if you do, what do you buff? Personally I have no objection to a light buff to the Banshee as proposed on the balance testing map (although those were a little excessive, I thought). But, even as a Protoss, I do miss the Banshee. 4. I do agree that Bio hardly needs a buff. It is already plenty strong as it is. If a buff is to come, then it does make sense that it be on the mech side. However, it still needs to be established if a buff is required. And then, if so, the nature of that buff. If the Hellbat nerf is a relatively light one then I am not sure that a corresponding buff is at all required. A nerf is required, though. This has got to be one of the worst posts I have ever read. Not because your ideas are irrational in isolation, but because they are incoherent. You say that we don't know if there needs to be a compensating buff, be it due to a lack of data, or whatever else. But then you say that a nerf is definitely required. Despite the fact that you have not presented any evidence supporting that claim, just your opinion. So you basically made a rational assertion (we don't know) and then jumped right to borderline insanity (definitely needs a nerf). So you basically gave us your opinion, no evidence, just your opinion, but at least you used alot of words disguising it as something more than that. And I'm not kidding by the way, jumping from "we don't know what exactly the current balance looks like so we don't know if we need to compensate any nerf with a buff" to "terran/hellbats definitely need a nerf" is almost schizophrenic and self-refuting. It's like someone pushed you off your chair and just wrote the rest of your post. You are right. I put that down to posting while working. I thought about it a little and just removed that last line. I think my dislike for the Hellbat as a unit got the better of me there. It seems to me though that you are fixated on that last line and the rest of what you say neither address Strelok's post, or whatever else I said in the rest of my post (other than my "words"). The reason I was so fixated on that last line was because it turned a rational post into something completely incoherent. I'm glad you fixed it though. Just to illustrate my point though. I think nerfing the hellbat (which I agree with, I despise hellbats) requires a counter-buff to some other Terran unit. Let's just assume, for the sake of argument, that the game is very well balanced right now (statistics, however insignificant they might seem back up this assumption). After nerfing any unit for any race, we would have to compensate for that nerf in order to reach this equilibrium again. I pointed this out already, but this is basic logic 101.
I will step in and say that in a linear system, you would be correct, but SC is very dynamic and nonlinear, and each strategy is its own species. If one species dies out, that doesn't necessarily make the other species better or worse in an absolute sense, especially if they're exclusive in role, investment, or synergy. The decreased variability of strategy is a possible argument, but Protoss is a good example of how you can keep 50/50 winrate with less variation. Ideally the power of every single species in the game should wax and wane depending on the climate, but they do not, because the strength of some units are unavoidable, and weaknesses of others are inexploitable. Personally, my design goal is the greatest species diversity, but that already puts me at odds with Blizzard's philosophy, that some species aren't meant to see the light, so long as the "action" is maintained.
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On July 04 2013 06:06 SlixSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 05:54 aZealot wrote:On July 04 2013 05:44 SlixSC wrote:On July 04 2013 05:26 aZealot wrote:On July 03 2013 20:42 Strelok wrote:
Balance
I would say now balance is rather close to be called "good". June statistics shows some advantage for protosses, but still. Some race will always have small advantage. It doesn't mean balance is bad overall. So if you take one of the strongest terran weapons away, you need to give them other weapon. If there won't be a hellbat drop possibility, zergs and protosses won't make fast defences and will do way better eco, so terran win rate will fall drastically (as it was already in WoL when "queens instead of sunkens" eco stuff brought huge zerg domination). So what weapon can substitute hellbat drops? Only a banshee. But if you nerf hellbat and raise banshee what will it change in game? Everyone will stop using hellbat drops and start using banshee. And there will be complaints about imba banshees from zergs, protosses and those terrans who don't like banshee and would like to use hellbat drops more. More then that - on non-pro level, terrans won't be able to win against other races, because hellbats are the only attacking unit of terran with a small multitask/micro requirement.
I don't think Blizzard has mentioned removing the Hellbat from the game. So, I don't know where you get the idea that one of the strongest terran weapons is going to be taken away. If it is going to be nerfed - by no means certain - getting a buff elsewhere will depend on the nature of the nerf, and if a corresponding buff is necessary (either for balance reasons and/or for gameplay reasons). I'm not sure about the second part of your past, you seem to believe that P and Z will simply stop defending drops when a good part of SC2 thus far, for both races, has been defending T drop play. Basically, you don't have an argument here. Other than: I've grown used to strong Hellbat drops. If you take it away, I want something else to take its place. But P and Z players will complain anyway, so please leave the Hellbat in the game. Oh, and I've forgotten that I already had the best drop harass in the game (MMM etc - not to mention the addition of Widow Mines). As to the non-pro Terrans' future "struggles on ladder", you seem to have a poor opinion of your Terran brothers.
Role of hellbats in game
If we don't count drops in the beginning, hellbats are not that good. Their HP/Range make them rather bad choice for late game. Usually you just make 5-6 to tank damage. So if you nerf the possibility of their using in beginning, you will receive 1 more useless unit in game.
Hellbats are stupid unimaginative boring units. There is very little downside to them. For their cost they do far too much. Their only drawback is supposed to be their relatively slow speed and their range. However, they are well able to keep up with MM in Marine/Marauder + Hellbat compositions and their low range is mitigated by their AOE. Once you add their ability to gain mobility through the Medivac you have a unit with no real downside - other than not being able to shoot up at the sky. When watching D1 of the recent OSL, it was obvious that Artosis hates the unit. And I get why he does. The Hellbat is a similar unit to the Marauder. Another tanky unit which does a lot of damage and hard counters another unit type.
Possibility to mech game (especially in TvP)
Even now - TvP meching is way harder then bioing. If you nerf hellbats - it will be almost impossible. Yes, it damages mech terrans, like me - way more, but i am sure it has always to be a possibility to play mech for people who don't want to play bio. So with hellbat nerf, Blizzard will need to give other strong weapon for mech terrans.
Why should I care about mech or meching Terrans? I'm tired of the reeking stench of martyrdom from meching Terrans who never fail to tell all and sundry about their struggle to mech, and how much the tank needs to be buffed. Never mind what it might do to the game or to all match-ups. So far, I have yet to see the attraction of meching play from Terrans. It usually seems to be turtle and then A-move with mech composition. I'm more likely to see positional play (i.e. the style of mech rather than the composition of mech) and the slow strangling advance across the map towards a win from swarmhost based play and tempest based play (if either of these come to fruition that is - but I think the potential is there). The real issue with mech viability, from the Terran standpoint, is the power of Bio. But, that's another discussion.
What do i propose?
I don't propose to nerf hellbats or not to nerf. All i want to say - Blizzard needs to do everything very ACCURATE and CAREFULL, otherwise you will receive same stuff as it was in WoL, when "small raise of queens and overlord speed" leaded to a total zerg domination until HotS and the retirement of many terran players.
I don't disagree with you here. SC2 is a complex and deep game, and changes need to be light and fair.
For those who can't understand what i mean, i say straight:
1. Every nerf weakens race.
2. Terran is not imba now, so you don't need to nerf it.
3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something.
4. And this buff has to affect mech more then bio, because nerf of hellbats affects mech play more then bio.
1. Not necessarily. Some nerfs may strengthen a race by forcing players to explore other strategies and styles. 2. Yes, Terran is not imbalanced right now but a nerf to the Hellbat is not necessarily a nerf to Terran. 3. Why? And if you do, what do you buff? Personally I have no objection to a light buff to the Banshee as proposed on the balance testing map (although those were a little excessive, I thought). But, even as a Protoss, I do miss the Banshee. 4. I do agree that Bio hardly needs a buff. It is already plenty strong as it is. If a buff is to come, then it does make sense that it be on the mech side. However, it still needs to be established if a buff is required. And then, if so, the nature of that buff. If the Hellbat nerf is a relatively light one then I am not sure that a corresponding buff is at all required. A nerf is required, though. This has got to be one of the worst posts I have ever read. Not because your ideas are irrational in isolation, but because they are incoherent. You say that we don't know if there needs to be a compensating buff, be it due to a lack of data, or whatever else. But then you say that a nerf is definitely required. Despite the fact that you have not presented any evidence supporting that claim, just your opinion. So you basically made a rational assertion (we don't know) and then jumped right to borderline insanity (definitely needs a nerf). So you basically gave us your opinion, no evidence, just your opinion, but at least you used alot of words disguising it as something more than that. And I'm not kidding by the way, jumping from "we don't know what exactly the current balance looks like so we don't know if we need to compensate any nerf with a buff" to "terran/hellbats definitely need a nerf" is almost schizophrenic and self-refuting. It's like someone pushed you off your chair and just wrote the rest of your post. You are right. I put that down to posting while working. I thought about it a little and just removed that last line. I think my dislike for the Hellbat as a unit got the better of me there. It seems to me though that you are fixated on that last line and the rest of what you say neither address Strelok's post, or whatever else I said in the rest of my post (other than my "words"). The reason I was so fixated on that last line was because it turned a rational post into something completely incoherent. I'm glad you fixed it though. Just to illustrate my point though. I think nerfing the hellbat (which I agree with, I despise hellbats) requires a counter-buff to some other Terran unit. Let's just assume, for the sake of argument, that the game is very well balanced right now (statistics, however insignificant they might seem back up this assumption). After nerfing any unit for any race, we would have to compensate for that nerf in order to reach this equilibrium again. I pointed this out already, but this is basic logic 101.
Fair enough. Blizzard seems to think the same if Banshee buffs are any indication. Like I said, even while I loathe Banshees (I play Protoss after all) I do miss Banshee play. They seem to have vanished from the game (other than the occassional sighting in TvT). I disagree that a buff is necessarily required though. If a race is strong enough, other existing tools will be used and equilibrium will be reached again. I believe Terran is that strong. But, maybe I'm a little biased. That said, if the nerf is a large one - which I would oppose - then a buff would certainly be required. Anything else would be unfair.
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I really agree with your post about mech if a nerf is given to hellbats. However, they absolutely need to get rid of the bio tag from hellbats. This will make hellbat drops not as effective as they are right now but won't completely destroy the usability of the unit in any stage of the game.
In terms of giving a buff to equal out the nerf - how about doing something with Transformation servos? Getting rid of it completely? I don't play terran enough to know what effect this will have in the long term for the meta but it's the best idea I have.
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On July 04 2013 05:01 ejozl wrote:
First complaint: Widow Mine drops, too hard to deal with.
Second complaint: Can't get third because of Bio drops.
Third complaint: Hellbat drops.
It's the Medivac guys, it's insane, look at it... We even saw Lucifron doing a Thor drop for christ sake, wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing Vikings load up in Medivacs to get places faster.
There needs to be an energy cost on the afterburner, so you don't just macro it all the time.
Hellbats as units are fine, they need to be good if they're to compete with Marines which has been the best mineral dump for Terrans since forever.
You all also seem to forget that metagame changes, knew stuff gets discovered, when it isn't going too well for the race. Terran has enough tools to deal with a nerf to the hellbat drop.
Sorry for ranting, but I'd also like to suggest that it would be good to reduce the cargo size of Hellbats back to what it was, if there were to be a nerf to the very imbalanced Medivac!
I completely agree that there should be an ignite afterburner energy cost on Medivac. This would make Caduceus Reactor upgrade usable too in every match up Another thing is Widow Mine vs Zerg is a bit OP too ;( It has completely replaced Bio Tank composition in TvZ ;((( Increasing mine cost by 25/25 should work or decrasing splash damage by 25% maybe?
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And reducing Cloak cost by 50/50 would make it solid too, not like Blizzard proposed previously by 100/100. Than it would also make sense to get Cauceus Reactor and transition into Bio. Would also make dropping a lot more skill based as well ''do i use Ignite Afterburner when I get in? do i switch off healing to save up energy to get out?''
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On July 04 2013 05:47 cloneThorN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 05:41 shell wrote:
What if Blizzard..
.. made the boosters on the medivac upgrade based?
.. made the boosters on the medivac take up mana -> less healing power?
.. made the hellbat a unit that needs to be a hellion first and therefor need a upgrade to change?
.. made the hellbat a real mech unit -> can't be healed by medivacs?
Has a zerg i have huge difficulty in beating a real mech army with Hellbats, thors, tanks and vikings!
But i'm gold... so what do i know? :d I dunno about how much you know, but your ideas is the exact same as mine, and i'm masters :p But i think i can answer these from as terran pov. 1. then terran would get fucked over in the aggression phase in TvP 2. (i have no clue about this one, theres literally no excuse for it not allready being ingame). 3. This would do nothing anyway. 4. because the healing is required to tank chargelots long enough.
My game knowledge is much better then what i play but i'm gold.. ;D
and yes this game is pretty hard to balance... 
and i also think mines are way harder to deal with and less forgiving then hellbats
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strelok you are decent player win me most of time, but hellbats being what they are and only 100 minerals is a complete and utter joke. Anyone who says they are "fine" or do not need some form of nerf is a complete idiot.
User was warned for this post
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Huge respect to you Strelok for putting in this amount of effort about a rather touchy topic. Too bad people are just gonna get mad and shit on you.
I am of the opinion that hellbats are a generally fine and fair unit until they get put in medivacs then they become absurd. It's very easy to make them and get at least enough economic damage through lost mining time and worker death to pay off the investment. But otherwise the hellbat is probably fine, does loads of damage but is slow and has shit range so tends to get murdered once the opponent has enough firepower.
I do think that hellbat drops dominate the early to mid part of TvT a bit too much. The anti air options available are kind of poor at preventing the medivac from getting in and once in it almost always breaks even at the very least. I don't mind playing it right now but it does feel a bit silly sometimes.
Oh and a bio-hellbat transition after opening hellbats drop might be viable. I've been playing it a fair bit to some reasonable results. Idk if you can win a GSL with it but, so I guess we'll have to see if KR terrans even pick it up but it's got some charm to it.
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I would argue that hellbats arent the issue so much as the medivac speed boost is. Hellbats can only do real damage when they get into your base and the reason that they are almost always successful in doing that is the damn medivac speed boost. lk turret rings dont stop hellcat drops, nor does immediatly moving your workers save you from losing 20 scvs because the damn medivacs just speed right over the moving worker clump and drop their shit, boom your in trouble.
Idk about balance but I know that tvt sucks. hellcat drops are not a big investment but can cripple an opponent (not even that much skill required to do it) so theres not much reason not to do them --> stupid matchup. imo.
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I think hellbat drop TvZ is not a problem. It's something that is relatively simple to scout and there are builds that can get an advantage against it when you have scouted it. I do have a problem with hellbats in their power for 2 or 3 base timing builds, though. They feel too effective against roaches and banelings with all their health.
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On July 04 2013 07:16 oOOoOphidian wrote:
I think hellbat drop TvZ is not a problem. It's something that is relatively simple to scout and there are builds that can get an advantage against it when you have scouted it. I do have a problem with hellbats in their power for 2 or 3 base timing builds, though. They feel too effective against roaches and banelings with all their health.
And Roach Baneling busts aren't effective, considering it's not even an all in, but can still take out players like innovation by A-moving? Hellbat marauder is the only decent 2 base timing push a Terran can do, that doesn't die straight up to a few banelings and roachs.
The issue isn't even about hellbat drops in TvZ and TvP, any non-biased player can see hellbats are fine in those matchups. The only issue is that hellbats drops are too strong in TvT.
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EPT
