Many people are complainting about hellbat drop play. Zergs, protosses and some terrans who want to play bio in TvT and struggle hard against mech style (Taeja, Bomber, MKP, Tarson e.t.c). Yes, hellbat drops openers are one of the strongest openers for terran. But why is that so hard to nerf it for Blizzard?
Balance
I would say now balance is rather close to be called "good". June statistics shows some advantage for protosses, but still. Some race will always have small advantage. It doesn't mean balance is bad overall. So if you take one of the strongest terran weapons away, you need to give them other weapon. If there won't be a hellbat drop possibility, zergs and protosses won't make fast defences and will do way better eco, so terran win rate will fall drastically (as it was already in WoL when "queens instead of sunkens" eco stuff brought huge zerg domination). So what weapon can substitute hellbat drops? Only a banshee. But if you nerf hellbat and raise banshee what will it change in game? Everyone will stop using hellbat drops and start using banshee. And there will be complaints about imba banshees from zergs, protosses and those terrans who don't like banshee and would like to use hellbat drops more. More then that - on non-pro level, terrans won't be able to win against other races, because hellbats are the only attacking unit of terran with a small multitask/micro requirement.
Role of hellbats in game
If we don't count drops in the beginning, hellbats are not that good. Their HP/Range make them rather bad choice for late game. Usually you just make 5-6 to tank damage. So if you nerf the possibility of their using in beginning, you will receive 1 more useless unit in game.
Possibility to mech game (especially in TvP)
Even now - TvP meching is way harder then bioing. If you nerf hellbats - it will be almost impossible. Yes, it damages mech terrans, like me - way more, but i am sure it has always to be a possibility to play mech for people who don't want to play bio. So with hellbat nerf, Blizzard will need to give other strong weapon for mech terrans.
What do i propose?
I don't propose to nerf hellbats or not to nerf. All i want to say - Blizzard needs to do everything very ACCURATE and CAREFULL, otherwise you will receive same stuff as it was in WoL, when "small raise of queens and overlord speed" leaded to a total zerg domination until HotS and the retirement of many terran players.
For those who can't understand what i mean, i say straight:
1. Every nerf weakens race. 2. Terran is not imba now, so you don't need to nerf it. 3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something. 4. And this buff has to affect mech more then bio, because nerf of hellbats affects mech play more then bio.
Your concern about mech is unwarranted, I don't see how the hellbat is a mech unit other than the fact it is built from the factory. Siege tanks are mech, if your concern is to make mech viable that's where the attention needs to be.
Hellbat drops should be nerfed for the sole effect they have on TvT, that matchup was glorious until the hellbat came along.
On July 03 2013 20:46 murphs wrote: Your concern about mech is unwarranted, I don't see how the hellbat is a mech unit other than the fact it is built from the factory. Siege tanks are mech, if your concern is to make mech viable that's where the attention needs to be.
Hellbat drops should be nerfed for the sole effect they have on TvT, that matchup was glorious until the hellbat came along.
Hellbat drops are are more or less reliable way to set up for a mech-based midgame, if you would take that away your "real mech" siege tank army will be in some serious trouble later. Also, Terran is statisticly even with the other races (at best) so a nerf to hellbat drops in TvT would tip the balance in favour of Protoss and Zerg in the other matchups.
I think something like the spore vs muta buff could be a solition for TvT (buff terran defense against hellbat drops somehow instead of nerfing the hellbats right away), so the other matchups could stay untouched pretty much, although i don´t like the way of balancing certain units only vs one race in particular it might be viable here...
I agree terran should receive a small buff in response. Hellbat drops are hardly used in TvZ and TvP though and many top terrans even state that it's not even good play which I kind of agree with if you're playing the regular bio styles. Hellbats are quite solid lategame TvP though, the range is a pretty moot point given they'll be fighting zealots mostly.
The buff in return should be very small though because terran 'losing' hellbat drops is a very small nerf for them given how easily you can play without it. Just rolling in the damage with blueflame will probably happen, hellbats down to 21 or 22 damage will still keep drops viable in TvP/TvZ since it's all about 2 shotting workers anyway and after blueflame they could have normal stats. In return slightly reducing blueflame and transformation servos costs to not hurt mech overall should be fine. Banshee buff or even thor buff would also be fine I think. It will probably affect TvT mostly and terrans might not add in hellbats anymore in lategame TvP because it would be too much of a hassle. Some hellbat timings in TvZ might also be gone. Overall i'd love to see the early hellbat drops be a bit rarer, they are just boring and feel so silly that a 300/100 total cost of dropship + 2 hellbats often still does damage against turret and marines. I'd also like to see blueflame hellions and transformation actually be used, it seems a bit silly that a transformation is rarely used just because it's more effective to straight up make hellbats. I seriously can't remember ever seeing hellbats transform in pro games (maybe some of yours but haven't seen them).
On July 03 2013 20:46 murphs wrote: Your concern about mech is unwarranted, I don't see how the hellbat is a mech unit other than the fact it is built from the factory. Siege tanks are mech, if your concern is to make mech viable that's where the attention needs to be.
Hellbat drops should be nerfed for the sole effect they have on TvT, that matchup was glorious until the hellbat came along.
Hellbat/tank has made mech much more viable, I don't know how you can pretend that hellbats don't gel well with mech.... Additionally, TvT was fairly volatile with hellbat drops but now things have settled down rather nicely as players are starting to get a feel for defending hellbat drops and doing earlier attacks (Mvp vs. Innovation, Innovation does an early marine/hellion elevator to completely destroy Mvp's hellbat drop build).
That being said, there's really no reason to nerf hellbats. They have done glorious things to TvT and mech in general. I personally love seeing the return of full mech in TvT and I think games are starting to resemble BW again, which is exciting. In TvZ and TvP, it's rather balanced too, as long as zerg and protoss are on top of their scouting and have ample defenses ready. In the lategame, hellbats provide a much-needed mineral sink for mech and are super important even then. There's just too many reasons why hellbats should NOT be nerfed.
If you're having trouble with hellbat drops in TvT, I suggest you do a different build, because there are plenty that exist that can deal with it. Also, I still believe that bio CAN be used in TvT, but it's a heavily modified bio that's not as aggressive or attacking-oriented as it was in WoL.
Hellbats in a mech army composition are great because they make mech in TvP pretty viable. Also, there are new bio unit compositions with hellbats which is also interesting & refreshing.
Hellbats as very early drops are just frustrating to deal with and makes TvT just stupid to watch. I just think early hellbat drops should be delayed heavily, but I really like the role of the hellbat in the terran main army.
Strelok, I would love to see Mech (more) viable in TvP! But you have to acknowledge that Hellbat drops might be problematic. So why not simply move the +12 vs light damage to the Blue Flame Upgrade as proposed by Blizzard and instead of buffing Banshee cloak beyond absurdity (as Banshees will naturally return with Hellbats weaker in the early game) make the Transform Hellbat / Hellion more accessible. By either make it a free ability or a cheap research like Marauder slow. This change would introduce much more dynamic gameplay with pros using Transform, but also would reduce the potency of the drops in the early / midgame.
The thing about hellbat drops is they're timing critical in the TvT matchup, at 8 min they come too early for what the terran can have to defend. The solution should be that the hellbat isn't made with the addition of armory, but simply that transformation servos have to researched, much like stim, from the barracks techlab (150-180 second research?, factory requirement however).
Also, hellions will always need to be transformed into hellbats and don't spawn as such from the factory.
Hellbats late game are fine and not broken. Tank marauder isn't worse than hellbat marauder. Mech vs Bio always comes down to either the bio player atacking where the mech player isn't or matching the mech player for tanks in straight up battles.
* a research would also allow hellbat research to be cancelled by an earlier timing attack.
As a high diamond random player, I don't thick my opinion is that conclusive on this matter. I really love hellbats, they make tvp less difficult (no more warp 20 zealots into lol @ your army), they make early game tvt unforgiving (which is a good thing for me, I love zvz ling/baneling wars) and open up some nice timings in tvz, while being a viable opening.
I really hope Blizzard will think twice before nerfing, because IMO Sc2 has never been this balanced.
If we don't count drops in the beginning, hellbats are not that good.
There I disagree. At least in TvT I switched from bio-mech to mech because of hellbats in mid-late game: The frontal assault of a mech terran on a bio-mech terran is so enormously strong with hellbats. First because hellbats tank way more tank shots than bio will ever do. Second because loading a few medivacs with hellbats and dropping them right on top of the enemies army is so strong.
would love a slightly nerfed damage against light units in return for blueflame upgrade makes them deal slightly more damage than now and also transformation being more accessible (lower time needed to research) personally I think them counter other mineral units way too hard at 0-0 upgrades even against 3-3 lings/zealots
On July 03 2013 20:42 Strelok wrote: Many people are complainting about hellbat drop play. Zergs, protosses and some terrans who want to play bio in TvT and struggle hard against mech style (Taeja, Bomber, MKP, Tarson e.t.c). Yes, hellbat drops openers are one of the strongest openers for terran. But why is that so hard to nerf it for Blizzard?
Balance
I would say now balance is rather close to be called "good". June statistics shows some advantage for protosses, but still. Some race will always have small advantage. It doesn't mean balance is bad overall. So if you take one of the strongest terran weapons away, you need to give them other weapon. If there won't be a hellbat drop possibility, zergs and protosses won't make fast defences and will do way better eco, so terran win rate will fall drastically (as it was already in WoL when "queens instead of sunkens" eco stuff brought huge zerg domination). So what weapon can substitute hellbat drops? Only a banshee. But if you nerf hellbat and raise banshee what will it change in game? Everyone will stop using hellbat drops and start using banshee. And there will be complaints about imba banshees from zergs, protosses and those terrans who don't like banshee and would like to use hellbat drops more. More then that - on non-pro level, terrans won't be able to win against other races, because hellbats are the only attacking unit of terran with a small multitask/micro requirement.
Role of hellbats in game
If we don't count drops in the beginning, hellbats are not that good. Their HP/Range make them rather bad choice for late game. Usually you just make 5-6 to tank damage. So if you nerf the possibility of their using in beginning, you will receive 1 more useless unit in game.
Possibility to mech game (especially in TvP)
Even now - TvP meching is way harder then bioing. If you nerf hellbats - it will be almost impossible. Yes, it damages mech terrans, like me - way more, but i am sure it has always to be a possibility to play mech for people who don't want to play bio. So with hellbat nerf, Blizzard will need to give other strong weapon for mech terrans.
What do i propose?
I don't propose to nerf hellbats or not to nerf. All i want to say - Blizzard needs to do everything very ACCURATE and CAREFULL, otherwise you will receive same stuff as it was in WoL, when "small raise of queens and overlord speed" leaded to a total zerg domination until HotS and the retirement of many terran players.
Strelok is right, reducing the hellbat would ultimately lead to a snow ball effect in mech play. Reducing it's strength in the early - mid game allowing for a much harder late game. It has the potential to make it a lot harder for mech players because even if you don't drop them they are needed for early - mid defense.
I've personally just started to all-in TvT anymore because I refuse to get into a hellbat drop war game. It isn't fun to play and it certainly isn't fun to watch. TvT is starting to go the way early HOTS ZvZ was with there only being one viable strategy. The issue lies in the Hellbat not necessarily being "op" in direct engagements on the battlefield simply by being a worker killing machine. However I would like to see their base damage reduced and given more damage in bonus to light. I find it very difficult to engage hellbats even with Marauders because their base damage, combined with splash, is so high.
Personally I would have fixed this at the start of HOTS by introducing a worker armor type and removing light from all workers. That way you can tweak how good you want a unit to be at killing light units and how good you want it to kill workers. This is a perfect example where the +worker damage would need to be nerfed but the +light shouldn't be touched. Same thing happened to blue flame hellions in WoL.
I dont always mech in TvP, but when i do i get steamrolled by 3 base Protoss Stalker/colossi/zealot/templar/immortal Deathball on superior upgrades, because i can not harass enough, because i dont make hellbatdrops.
"hellbat so stronk in late TvP with bioarmy" - Yeah like upgraded chargelots.
Leave the balance to Blizzard and live with it. Your opinion won´t change anything. Blizzard will change balance for 2 reaasons:
1. Ladderwins get significantly out of balance towords one race 2. Tournaments will get boring 3. Not your opinion.
When you scout hellbat drop, you still can lose the game because hellbat can kill so many scv even with a turret/bunker. With the banshee it's not the same, you can defend it with one AA tower and that's it, you wont sucide it to kill 2 drones while the drop hellbat, you just do it. That's why I think :
And there will be complaints about imba banshees from zergs, protosses and those terrans who don't like banshee and would like to use hellbat drops more. More then that - on non-pro level, terrans won't be able to win against other races, because hellbats are the only attacking unit of terran with a small multitask/micro requirement.
I see no issue with BattleHellions being useless in TvT and TvZ. There are several brood war units that only work well in a specific match-up. So if they can just maintain there power in TvP when they are re-balanced then I think they will serve their purpose.
On July 03 2013 23:45 Faust852 wrote: When you scout hellbat drop, you still can lose the game because hellbat can kill so many scv even with a turret/bunker. With the banshee it's not the same, you can defend it with one AA tower and that's it, you wont sucide it to kill 2 drones while the drop hellbat, you just do it.
Well right now you can defend a banshee just with 2 queens. So of course now it's not a problem ^^. I waste thon of money on starport, addon and banshee+inviz - and you just make 1 aa each base (or even just queens + overseer). And now imagine banshee that deals as much damage as hellbat drops. (remember, it has to be same powerfull - because now terran is not imba)
On July 03 2013 23:45 Faust852 wrote: When you scout hellbat drop, you still can lose the game because hellbat can kill so many scv even with a turret/bunker. With the banshee it's not the same, you can defend it with one AA tower and that's it, you wont sucide it to kill 2 drones while the drop hellbat, you just do it.
Well right now you can defend a banshee just with 2 queens. So of course now it's not a problem ^^. I waste thon of money on starport, addon and banshee+inviz - and you just make 1 aa each base (or even just queens + overseer). And now imagine banshee that deals as much damage as hellbat drops. (remember, it has to be same powerfull - because now terran is not imba)
I believe this is an issue as well. Did Blizzard ever state why they made it so Spores only require Pool in HOTS instead of evo? Right now you can't even catch a Zerg with it's pants down.
I think blizzard is gonna fuck this up supper hard. They'll either leave it as it is, which makes tvt a joke matchup, or they'll nerf way too hard (kinda how they massively over buffed spores vs biological and nerfed siege tanks way too hard). IMO they should just buff banshees (make them build quicker/cheaper, make cloaking cheaper etc.) to make it an attractive opener, and maybe finally give some sort of drawback to boosting (imagine each boost would cost 25 energy, would make hellbat drops way less potent early on). But it's blizzard so they'll probably fuck it up, but don't worry winrates will be balanced.
Blizzard should definitely remove speedboost from medivacs and give it to hellbats. Also nerf the build timing of spawningpool to maybe 4 minutesish, 6 pool is so OP nowadays, remove warpgate while your at it too.
On July 03 2013 20:57 Markwerf wrote: The buff in return should be very small though because terran 'losing' hellbat drops is a very small nerf for them given how easily you can play without it.
It's not about "being able" to play without them composition wise. The mere possibility of hellbat drops is a huge factor in tvz. If you remove/nerf them, the exact same thing happens as after the queen patch: the zerg isn't scared anymore so he does the awesome 2 lings 80 drones into gg build.
On July 03 2013 23:45 Faust852 wrote: When you scout hellbat drop, you still can lose the game because hellbat can kill so many scv even with a turret/bunker. With the banshee it's not the same, you can defend it with one AA tower and that's it, you wont sucide it to kill 2 drones while the drop hellbat, you just do it.
Well right now you can defend a banshee just with 2 queens. So of course now it's not a problem ^^. I waste thon of money on starport, addon and banshee+inviz - and you just make 1 aa each base (or even just queens + overseer). And now imagine banshee that deals as much damage as hellbat drops. (remember, it has to be same powerfull - because now terran is not imba)
I believe this is an issue as well. Did Blizzard ever state why they made it so Spores only require Pool in HOTS instead of evo? Right now you can't even catch a Zerg with it's pants down.
I believe it was because of protoss stargate play and zergs refusing to scout even after turbolord buff.
On July 03 2013 23:45 Faust852 wrote: When you scout hellbat drop, you still can lose the game because hellbat can kill so many scv even with a turret/bunker. With the banshee it's not the same, you can defend it with one AA tower and that's it, you wont sucide it to kill 2 drones while the drop hellbat, you just do it.
Well right now you can defend a banshee just with 2 queens. So of course now it's not a problem ^^. I waste thon of money on starport, addon and banshee+inviz - and you just make 1 aa each base (or even just queens + overseer). And now imagine banshee that deals as much damage as hellbat drops. (remember, it has to be same powerfull - because now terran is not imba)
I believe this is an issue as well. Did Blizzard ever state why they made it so Spores only require Pool in HOTS instead of evo? Right now you can't even catch a Zerg with it's pants down.
I believe it was because of protoss stargate play and zergs refusing to scout even after turbolord buff.
I want turret without ebay too, some P just managed to get an oracle a 4:50 in my base
Even though the point about mech needing the Hellbat is quite relevant Strelok didnt cover the most important questions of them all ...
- Why should Hellbats be so ridiculously cost efficient, giving a huge kill potential for a tiny investment. The best "illogical" example was played last weekends MLG, where Moonglade faced Sound and killed off EIGHT Medivacs with two Hellbats each for only 24 Drones killed and still lost in the end. Such an harrassment should come at a big cost and be more of a risk.
A full Medivac of Marines costs 200 minerals more and is less efficient at harrassment ... that does not make sense at all.
- Does it make the game more interesting from a spectators pov if you have three super cheap and ez-mode drops at three bases at the same time? What if it is six of them in a TvT?
On July 03 2013 23:45 Faust852 wrote: When you scout hellbat drop, you still can lose the game because hellbat can kill so many scv even with a turret/bunker. With the banshee it's not the same, you can defend it with one AA tower and that's it, you wont sucide it to kill 2 drones while the drop hellbat, you just do it.
Well right now you can defend a banshee just with 2 queens. So of course now it's not a problem ^^. I waste thon of money on starport, addon and banshee+inviz - and you just make 1 aa each base (or even just queens + overseer). And now imagine banshee that deals as much damage as hellbat drops. (remember, it has to be same powerfull - because now terran is not imba)
I believe this is an issue as well. Did Blizzard ever state why they made it so Spores only require Pool in HOTS instead of evo? Right now you can't even catch a Zerg with it's pants down.
I think it was to stop fast/proxy widow mines? Of course the side effect is no more banshee/dt/oracle openings.
1. Every nerf weakens race. 2. Terran is not imba now, so you don't need to nerf it.
I am not convinced by this. Terran may not be imba but it is doing very good. Also in matchups other than TvT hellbats are not quite as heavily used. On top of that terran is the most versatile race. So even if hellbat drops disappear I very much doubt anything will change about terran winrates in Korea.
What I am most concerned about is that Blizzard will in exchange for nerfing hellbats reduce the gas cost of cloak which would lead to some shitty coinflip bullshit. I'd much rather see a buff for banshees which makes them more viable in the later stages of the game.
Personally I'm undecided on hellbat drops. I feel like they are similar to the BW reaver, except that they seem much more disposable... and harder to kill. I thought reavers were great fun, but only with the slight delay in attack after being dropped. Before the delay was introduced, it started getting silly in PvP with reaver wars openings.
But the important thing in HotS is (besides what was mentioned in the OP):
1. Does defending hellbat drops eliminate most opening strategies of P and Z? Does it pigeonhole them into 1 or 2 builds because they have to defend these things well? I'm not sure yet. Too soon to tell, but I do know fancy stargate into phoenix openings look cool defending hellbat drops... but probably die to a big 2 base bio push (bio + hellbat push?).
2. Does Terran's powerful midgame army in combination with hellbat drops allow Terran to get too far ahead economically? In TvP for instance, I don't see why Terrans don't just threaten hellbat drops, spot lots of defense, then take a total of 4 bases ASAP. With bunker or plan. fortress defense, zealot runbys don't do much. Protoss will be stuck on 2 bases a long time, so doubtful they can go on the map and mount a big attack.
Still too early to tell. I hope no changes are made for a longer.
Personally I'd be most interested in doing it zerg style and removing the engi bay requirement of turrets(and rather say rax requirement). People keep saying "hellbat drops are only a problem in TvT" and then they go "we need to do a straight up nerf for all MUs".
The effects of such a change would admittedly change TvP openers a bit, since nowadays, people normally open up with engi bay due to possible oracles, so it'd probably have very minimal effects on surviving the oracles, but it'd possibly allow terran to be slightly greedier, which isn't (necesarily) a good thing. For TvZ, the effect would be minimal at best, since when it'd matter, people will have 2 engi bays down anyway.
Edit: For TvT it'd ofcourse make banshee's even less viable. Personally I think they should go with a buff on them regardless of what they do, but start with making cloak 150/150 with same research time and see where that lands us. I don't think basically removing hellbat drops as an option and adding banshees as the byfar best option instead is a smart thing.
On July 04 2013 00:15 Zarahtra wrote: Personally I'd be most interested in doing it zerg style and removing the engi bay requirement of turrets(and rather say rax requirement). People keep saying "hellbat drops are only a problem in TvT" and then they go "we need to do a straight up nerf for all MUs".
The effects of such a change would admittedly change TvP openers a bit, since nowadays, people normally open up with engi bay due to possible oracles, so it'd probably have very minimal effects on surviving the oracles, but it'd possibly allow terran to be slightly greedier, which isn't (necesarily) a good thing. For TvZ, the effect would be minimal at best, since when it'd matter, people will have 2 engi bays down anyway.
But that would make Oracle openers even more worthless than they are at the moment. The only way an Oracle will really work is if they hit before you have your engi bay up.
On July 04 2013 00:15 Zarahtra wrote: Personally I'd be most interested in doing it zerg style and removing the engi bay requirement of turrets(and rather say rax requirement). People keep saying "hellbat drops are only a problem in TvT" and then they go "we need to do a straight up nerf for all MUs".
The effects of such a change would admittedly change TvP openers a bit, since nowadays, people normally open up with engi bay due to possible oracles, so it'd probably have very minimal effects on surviving the oracles, but it'd possibly allow terran to be slightly greedier, which isn't (necesarily) a good thing. For TvZ, the effect would be minimal at best, since when it'd matter, people will have 2 engi bays down anyway.
DTs hate your idea. They already feel pretty useless but now detection is even easier.
try playing zerg and protoss and defend against hellbat drops 3 stalkers can't defend vs 2 hellbats + medivac when you have to micro at 2-3 different fronts.
On July 03 2013 20:42 Strelok wrote: Many people are complainting about hellbat drop play. Zergs, protosses and some terrans who want to play bio in TvT and struggle hard against mech style (Taeja, Bomber, MKP, Tarson e.t.c). Yes, hellbat drops openers are one of the strongest openers for terran. But why is that so hard to nerf it for Blizzard?
Balance
I would say now balance is rather close to be called "good". June statistics shows some advantage for protosses, but still. Some race will always have small advantage. It doesn't mean balance is bad overall. So if you take one of the strongest terran weapons away, you need to give them other weapon. If there won't be a hellbat drop possibility, zergs and protosses won't make fast defences and will do way better eco, so terran win rate will fall drastically (as it was already in WoL when "queens instead of sunkens" eco stuff brought huge zerg domination). So what weapon can substitute hellbat drops? Only a banshee. But if you nerf hellbat and raise banshee what will it change in game? Everyone will stop using hellbat drops and start using banshee. And there will be complaints about imba banshees from zergs, protosses and those terrans who don't like banshee and would like to use hellbat drops more. More then that - on non-pro level, terrans won't be able to win against other races, because hellbats are the only attacking unit of terran with a small multitask/micro requirement.
Role of hellbats in game
If we don't count drops in the beginning, hellbats are not that good. Their HP/Range make them rather bad choice for late game. Usually you just make 5-6 to tank damage. So if you nerf the possibility of their using in beginning, you will receive 1 more useless unit in game.
Possibility to mech game (especially in TvP)
Even now - TvP meching is way harder then bioing. If you nerf hellbats - it will be almost impossible. Yes, it damages mech terrans, like me - way more, but i am sure it has always to be a possibility to play mech for people who don't want to play bio. So with hellbat nerf, Blizzard will need to give other strong weapon for mech terrans.
What do i propose?
I don't propose to nerf hellbats or not to nerf. All i want to say - Blizzard needs to do everything very ACCURATE and CAREFULL, otherwise you will receive same stuff as it was in WoL, when "small raise of queens and overlord speed" leaded to a total zerg domination until HotS and the retirement of many terran players.
For those who can't understand what i mean, i say straight:
1. Every nerf weakens race. 2. Terran is not imba now, so you don't need to nerf it. 3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something. 4. And this buff has to affect mech more then bio, because nerf of hellbats affects mech play more then bio.
I do not think the purpose of this nerf is to weaken mech players. This nerf seems to try to add diversity to the early - mid game of TvT. Think of the last TvT that the players decided to not got for hellbat drops? Chances are they lost if they didnt go for them.
On the flip side, I do agree that with a hellbat nerf that the late game mech composition will be weaker. I feel that this should not happen. The idea is to diversify the early-mid game TvT, not weaken mech play. Therefor; after the blue flame upgrade that the hellbats will be just the same as they were before the nerf. That way we see more diversity TvT early - mid game and not nerf the late game composition to mech and also the upgrade allows you to start hellbat dropping.
If we don't count drops in the beginning, hellbats are not that good.
There I disagree. At least in TvT I switched from bio-mech to mech because of hellbats in mid-late game: The frontal assault of a mech terran on a bio-mech terran is so enormously strong with hellbats. First because hellbats tank way more tank shots than bio will ever do. Second because loading a few medivacs with hellbats and dropping them right on top of the enemies army is so strong.
people still can't comprehend that a Mech unit can be healed by a Medivac! that's one of the dumbest things still in the game, and would go a LONG way to balancing the OP hellbat
to your point: blizzard has proposed nerfing hellbats like this: take away bonus to light, add it again through researching blue flame upgrade. they would be weaker in the beginning (NEEDED) and on same strength later (for negligible cost).
(not needed in my opinion, i think they're too strong in general, drops or no drops, but that's irrelevant to my point)
i disagree with having to buff something else terran has. the even win rates are caused mainly by metagame (blind 3 oc rush from terrans vs roach bling allins) rather than it being balanced.
On July 04 2013 00:15 Zarahtra wrote: Personally I'd be most interested in doing it zerg style and removing the engi bay requirement of turrets(and rather say rax requirement). People keep saying "hellbat drops are only a problem in TvT" and then they go "we need to do a straight up nerf for all MUs".
The effects of such a change would admittedly change TvP openers a bit, since nowadays, people normally open up with engi bay due to possible oracles, so it'd probably have very minimal effects on surviving the oracles, but it'd possibly allow terran to be slightly greedier, which isn't (necesarily) a good thing. For TvZ, the effect would be minimal at best, since when it'd matter, people will have 2 engi bays down anyway.
But that would make Oracle openers even more worthless than they are at the moment. The only way an Oracle will really work is if they hit before you have your engi bay up.
Well it wouldn't really change much vs oracles. All terrans are getting these engi bays up early anyway. The change would be that terran could be slightly more greedy like I said, which I admittedly don't know how would land. Like Strelok pointed out in the OP, the queen buff had huge ramifacations since zerg could be more greedy due to it(admittedly it'd never be such a drastic change). So yeah, it'd change terran openings a bit in TvP, fx. doubt terran would then go such insanely early +1 attack anymore, so yeah... Could be to much, but hard to know.
On July 04 2013 00:15 Zarahtra wrote: Personally I'd be most interested in doing it zerg style and removing the engi bay requirement of turrets(and rather say rax requirement). People keep saying "hellbat drops are only a problem in TvT" and then they go "we need to do a straight up nerf for all MUs".
The effects of such a change would admittedly change TvP openers a bit, since nowadays, people normally open up with engi bay due to possible oracles, so it'd probably have very minimal effects on surviving the oracles, but it'd possibly allow terran to be slightly greedier, which isn't (necesarily) a good thing. For TvZ, the effect would be minimal at best, since when it'd matter, people will have 2 engi bays down anyway.
DTs hate your idea. They already feel pretty useless but now detection is even easier.
Well it'd not really change anything for DTs, if turrets aren't down preemptively, you're pretty screwed anyway. It's not like with zerg where you can start like 6 spores and just cancel everyone except the first to finish.
On July 03 2013 20:42 Strelok wrote: Many people are complainting about hellbat drop play. Zergs, protosses and some terrans who want to play bio in TvT and struggle hard against mech style (Taeja, Bomber, MKP, Tarson e.t.c). Yes, hellbat drops openers are one of the strongest openers for terran. But why is that so hard to nerf it for Blizzard?
Balance
I would say now balance is rather close to be called "good". June statistics shows some advantage for protosses, but still. Some race will always have small advantage. It doesn't mean balance is bad overall. So if you take one of the strongest terran weapons away, you need to give them other weapon. If there won't be a hellbat drop possibility, zergs and protosses won't make fast defences and will do way better eco, so terran win rate will fall drastically (as it was already in WoL when "queens instead of sunkens" eco stuff brought huge zerg domination). So what weapon can substitute hellbat drops? Only a banshee. But if you nerf hellbat and raise banshee what will it change in game? Everyone will stop using hellbat drops and start using banshee. And there will be complaints about imba banshees from zergs, protosses and those terrans who don't like banshee and would like to use hellbat drops more. More then that - on non-pro level, terrans won't be able to win against other races, because hellbats are the only attacking unit of terran with a small multitask/micro requirement.
Role of hellbats in game
If we don't count drops in the beginning, hellbats are not that good. Their HP/Range make them rather bad choice for late game. Usually you just make 5-6 to tank damage. So if you nerf the possibility of their using in beginning, you will receive 1 more useless unit in game.
Possibility to mech game (especially in TvP)
Even now - TvP meching is way harder then bioing. If you nerf hellbats - it will be almost impossible. Yes, it damages mech terrans, like me - way more, but i am sure it has always to be a possibility to play mech for people who don't want to play bio. So with hellbat nerf, Blizzard will need to give other strong weapon for mech terrans.
What do i propose?
I don't propose to nerf hellbats or not to nerf. All i want to say - Blizzard needs to do everything very ACCURATE and CAREFULL, otherwise you will receive same stuff as it was in WoL, when "small raise of queens and overlord speed" leaded to a total zerg domination until HotS and the retirement of many terran players.
For those who can't understand what i mean, i say straight:
1. Every nerf weakens race. 2. Terran is not imba now, so you don't need to nerf it. 3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something. 4. And this buff has to affect mech more then bio, because nerf of hellbats affects mech play more then bio.
I do not think the purpose of this nerf is to weaken mech players. This nerf seems to try to add diversity to the early - mid game of TvT. Think of the last TvT that the players decided to not got for hellbat drops? Chances are they lost if they didnt go for them.
On the flip side, I do agree that with a hellbat nerf that the late game mech composition will be weaker. I feel that this should not happen. The idea is to diversify the early-mid game TvT, not weaken mech play. Therefor; after the blue flame upgrade that the hellbats will be just the same as they were before the nerf. That way we see more diversity TvT early - mid game and not nerf the late game composition to mech and also the upgrade allows you to start hellbat dropping.
the problem is that an army full of double marines(cost of a hellbat) shouldn't be that tanky and does massive amount of aoe damage vs all units in late game. you dont see late game pvt where terran goes mass marines and 3 marauders to win the game like how mech terrans are right now with 30 hellbats and maybe 4 tanks. on top of that, they're an A-move unit, yes, a move unit, at least you have to micro marines, but with these things you can send them into storm and they will come out fine. don't understand what concept of this unit needs to stop being so good do you guys not understand.
The only solutions i can think of: -Rename the transformation upgrade and make it a requirement to be able to make hellbats so that hellbats will come a little bit later. -Medivac can not boost when carrying units that take 4+ cargo space(Hellbats,Tanks and Thors) or boosting requires 25 energy.
On July 03 2013 23:45 Faust852 wrote: When you scout hellbat drop, you still can lose the game because hellbat can kill so many scv even with a turret/bunker. With the banshee it's not the same, you can defend it with one AA tower and that's it, you wont sucide it to kill 2 drones while the drop hellbat, you just do it.
Well right now you can defend a banshee just with 2 queens. So of course now it's not a problem ^^. I waste thon of money on starport, addon and banshee+inviz - and you just make 1 aa each base (or even just queens + overseer). And now imagine banshee that deals as much damage as hellbat drops. (remember, it has to be same powerfull - because now terran is not imba)
I believe this is an issue as well. Did Blizzard ever state why they made it so Spores only require Pool in HOTS instead of evo? Right now you can't even catch a Zerg with it's pants down.
which is a good thing. why do you want an automatic victory without zerg being able to do anything just because of a build order advantage? there are too much of those already, especially in zvp.
if terran doesn't make static detection (turrets) he will just scan.
On July 03 2013 23:45 Faust852 wrote: When you scout hellbat drop, you still can lose the game because hellbat can kill so many scv even with a turret/bunker. With the banshee it's not the same, you can defend it with one AA tower and that's it, you wont sucide it to kill 2 drones while the drop hellbat, you just do it.
Well right now you can defend a banshee just with 2 queens. So of course now it's not a problem ^^. I waste thon of money on starport, addon and banshee+inviz - and you just make 1 aa each base (or even just queens + overseer). And now imagine banshee that deals as much damage as hellbat drops. (remember, it has to be same powerfull - because now terran is not imba)
I believe this is an issue as well. Did Blizzard ever state why they made it so Spores only require Pool in HOTS instead of evo? Right now you can't even catch a Zerg with it's pants down.
which is a good thing. why do you want an automatic victory without zerg being able to do anything just because of a build order advantage? there are too much of those already, especially in zvp.
if terran doesn't make static detection (turrets) he will just scan.
If a Zerg isn't scouting before 111 w/ Cloak that is hardly a "build order win." That is a "The Zerg is terrible" win.
On July 03 2013 23:45 Faust852 wrote: When you scout hellbat drop, you still can lose the game because hellbat can kill so many scv even with a turret/bunker. With the banshee it's not the same, you can defend it with one AA tower and that's it, you wont sucide it to kill 2 drones while the drop hellbat, you just do it.
Well right now you can defend a banshee just with 2 queens. So of course now it's not a problem ^^. I waste thon of money on starport, addon and banshee+inviz - and you just make 1 aa each base (or even just queens + overseer). And now imagine banshee that deals as much damage as hellbat drops. (remember, it has to be same powerfull - because now terran is not imba)
I believe this is an issue as well. Did Blizzard ever state why they made it so Spores only require Pool in HOTS instead of evo? Right now you can't even catch a Zerg with it's pants down.
which is a good thing. why do you want an automatic victory without zerg being able to do anything just because of a build order advantage? there are too much of those already, especially in zvp.
if terran doesn't make static detection (turrets) he will just scan.
If a Zerg isn't scouting before 111 w/ Cloak that is hardly a "build order win." That is a "The Zerg is terrible" win.
i had dts in mind when saying that, not banshees. there are other matchups you know.
On July 03 2013 23:45 Faust852 wrote: When you scout hellbat drop, you still can lose the game because hellbat can kill so many scv even with a turret/bunker. With the banshee it's not the same, you can defend it with one AA tower and that's it, you wont sucide it to kill 2 drones while the drop hellbat, you just do it.
Well right now you can defend a banshee just with 2 queens. So of course now it's not a problem ^^. I waste thon of money on starport, addon and banshee+inviz - and you just make 1 aa each base (or even just queens + overseer). And now imagine banshee that deals as much damage as hellbat drops. (remember, it has to be same powerfull - because now terran is not imba)
I believe this is an issue as well. Did Blizzard ever state why they made it so Spores only require Pool in HOTS instead of evo? Right now you can't even catch a Zerg with it's pants down.
I believe it was because of protoss stargate play and zergs refusing to scout even after turbolord buff.
I want turret without ebay too, some P just managed to get an oracle a 4:50 in my base
i agree to turret without ebay. doesn't make any sense for it to require ebay and can possibly lead to build order losses against dt in weird games.
If only it were possible to change hellbat drops in TvT without affecting the other matchups. I think hellbats are fine in vP and vZ. It only really spoils the TvT mirror, from a viewer's perspective. There is nothing wrong with the balance. It is just really not fun to watch.
On July 03 2013 20:42 Strelok wrote: Many people are complainting about hellbat drop play. Zergs, protosses and some terrans who want to play bio in TvT and struggle hard against mech style (Taeja, Bomber, MKP, Tarson e.t.c). Yes, hellbat drops openers are one of the strongest openers for terran. But why is that so hard to nerf it for Blizzard?
Balance
I would say now balance is rather close to be called "good". June statistics shows some advantage for protosses, but still. Some race will always have small advantage. It doesn't mean balance is bad overall. So if you take one of the strongest terran weapons away, you need to give them other weapon. If there won't be a hellbat drop possibility, zergs and protosses won't make fast defences and will do way better eco, so terran win rate will fall drastically (as it was already in WoL when "queens instead of sunkens" eco stuff brought huge zerg domination). So what weapon can substitute hellbat drops? Only a banshee. But if you nerf hellbat and raise banshee what will it change in game? Everyone will stop using hellbat drops and start using banshee. And there will be complaints about imba banshees from zergs, protosses and those terrans who don't like banshee and would like to use hellbat drops more. More then that - on non-pro level, terrans won't be able to win against other races, because hellbats are the only attacking unit of terran with a small multitask/micro requirement.
Role of hellbats in game
If we don't count drops in the beginning, hellbats are not that good. Their HP/Range make them rather bad choice for late game. Usually you just make 5-6 to tank damage. So if you nerf the possibility of their using in beginning, you will receive 1 more useless unit in game.
Possibility to mech game (especially in TvP)
Even now - TvP meching is way harder then bioing. If you nerf hellbats - it will be almost impossible. Yes, it damages mech terrans, like me - way more, but i am sure it has always to be a possibility to play mech for people who don't want to play bio. So with hellbat nerf, Blizzard will need to give other strong weapon for mech terrans.
What do i propose?
I don't propose to nerf hellbats or not to nerf. All i want to say - Blizzard needs to do everything very ACCURATE and CAREFULL, otherwise you will receive same stuff as it was in WoL, when "small raise of queens and overlord speed" leaded to a total zerg domination until HotS and the retirement of many terran players.
For those who can't understand what i mean, i say straight:
1. Every nerf weakens race. 2. Terran is not imba now, so you don't need to nerf it. 3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something. 4. And this buff has to affect mech more then bio, because nerf of hellbats affects mech play more then bio.
Strelok makes a lot of good points, it's good that he made this thread because otherwise if Blizzard/community just don't say anything, then the game will become worse because of tournament balance fervor.
I think all pros pretty much agree (well, Terrans at least) that Hellbat drops are broken in TvT. They are so good that the best and almost only strategy right now is to Hellbat drop your opponent, or blind counter Hellbats.
One of the best counters in TvT to Hellbats right now is to simply make them yourself.
But as Strelok says, the problem is not the Hellbat as a unit itself. The Hellbat is actually pretty supply inefficient lategame for having no mobility and no range. It's similar to a roach, it's a unit you basically want to throw away as cost efficiently as you can in late game.
The issue is the burst potential in drops. People should note, Hellbat drops were never an issue until after they were given the biological tag. Hellbat drops always existed, but when the Hellbat was a mech unit, you could reliably put an end to the Hellbat drop by doing damage to the Hellbats, which put a timer on the amount of time they were dropped within your mineral line, or able to be re-loaded back into the medivac from still being alive.
After the biological tag was added, that's when Hellbat TvT came up as basically being the end-all be-all TvT, and of course players use them in TvZ a lot as well, and occasionally TvP but more of an opportunistic thing in TvP rather than as part of an entire build order.
The biological tag makes archons stronger vs hellbats, and also makes them survive 5-6 seconds longer in mineral lines due to healing, which can be worth another 5-10 worker kills which is game breaking.
The thing blizzard/dkim have to contend with is if they nerf the Hellbat entirely, mech TvP becomes even worse, and it's already terribad right now in TvP, and difficult in TvZ due to new lategame stuff like mass SH + viper.
They need to nerf the Hellbat drop specifically, much like muta vs muta ZvZ needed a ZvZ specific nerf that did not nerf mutalisks in the other two match-ups.
The other good points Strelok makes are that if the Hellbat is nerfed it's more of a huge nerf than people initially can understand. As he referenced, the queen+overlord speed patch in wings was a catalyst for brood infestor every game and allowing Zerg to commit all of their larva to drones.
A Hellbat nerf too severe would let Zergs do this same thing again, as Hellbats are one of the few ways Terran can pressure a Zerg's larva right now since spores were buffed making banshees significantly worse, and the mothership core / stargate openings made banshees non-existent in TvP as well.
As strelok said, if they nerf Hellbats they need to buff something for mech TvP (tanks...) and it has to affect mech more than bio.
What is a very logical solution to this that weakens Hellbat TvT drops, still keeps them viable in the other match-ups, and does not kill the Hellbat as a unit while helping mech TvP?
Remove the biological tag. It does all of the above, it weakens the Hellbat drop, it buffs mech TvP slightly (archons less damage to Hellbats), and will still leave the Hellbat's potential there to pressure Zerg's larva count while putting more of a timer on the drops.
It's a nerf that is a very tiny one, but has huge game implications.
On July 03 2013 20:42 Strelok wrote: Many people are complainting about hellbat drop play. Zergs, protosses and some terrans who want to play bio in TvT and struggle hard against mech style (Taeja, Bomber, MKP, Tarson e.t.c). Yes, hellbat drops openers are one of the strongest openers for terran. But why is that so hard to nerf it for Blizzard?
Balance
I would say now balance is rather close to be called "good". June statistics shows some advantage for protosses, but still. Some race will always have small advantage. It doesn't mean balance is bad overall. So if you take one of the strongest terran weapons away, you need to give them other weapon. If there won't be a hellbat drop possibility, zergs and protosses won't make fast defences and will do way better eco, so terran win rate will fall drastically (as it was already in WoL when "queens instead of sunkens" eco stuff brought huge zerg domination). So what weapon can substitute hellbat drops? Only a banshee. But if you nerf hellbat and raise banshee what will it change in game? Everyone will stop using hellbat drops and start using banshee. And there will be complaints about imba banshees from zergs, protosses and those terrans who don't like banshee and would like to use hellbat drops more. More then that - on non-pro level, terrans won't be able to win against other races, because hellbats are the only attacking unit of terran with a small multitask/micro requirement.
Role of hellbats in game
If we don't count drops in the beginning, hellbats are not that good. Their HP/Range make them rather bad choice for late game. Usually you just make 5-6 to tank damage. So if you nerf the possibility of their using in beginning, you will receive 1 more useless unit in game.
Possibility to mech game (especially in TvP)
Even now - TvP meching is way harder then bioing. If you nerf hellbats - it will be almost impossible. Yes, it damages mech terrans, like me - way more, but i am sure it has always to be a possibility to play mech for people who don't want to play bio. So with hellbat nerf, Blizzard will need to give other strong weapon for mech terrans.
What do i propose?
I don't propose to nerf hellbats or not to nerf. All i want to say - Blizzard needs to do everything very ACCURATE and CAREFULL, otherwise you will receive same stuff as it was in WoL, when "small raise of queens and overlord speed" leaded to a total zerg domination until HotS and the retirement of many terran players.
For those who can't understand what i mean, i say straight:
1. Every nerf weakens race. 2. Terran is not imba now, so you don't need to nerf it. 3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something. 4. And this buff has to affect mech more then bio, because nerf of hellbats affects mech play more then bio.
I do not think the purpose of this nerf is to weaken mech players. This nerf seems to try to add diversity to the early - mid game of TvT. Think of the last TvT that the players decided to not got for hellbat drops? Chances are they lost if they didnt go for them.
On the flip side, I do agree that with a hellbat nerf that the late game mech composition will be weaker. I feel that this should not happen. The idea is to diversify the early-mid game TvT, not weaken mech play. Therefor; after the blue flame upgrade that the hellbats will be just the same as they were before the nerf. That way we see more diversity TvT early - mid game and not nerf the late game composition to mech and also the upgrade allows you to start hellbat dropping.
the problem is that an army full of double marines(cost of a hellbat) shouldn't be that tanky and does massive amount of aoe damage vs all units in late game. you dont see late game pvt where terran goes mass marines and 3 marauders to win the game like how mech terrans are right now with 30 hellbats and maybe 4 tanks. on top of that, they're an A-move unit, yes, a move unit, at least you have to micro marines, but with these things you can send them into storm and they will come out fine. don't understand what concept of this unit needs to stop being so good do you guys not understand.
It's interesting that you exactly just described the chargelot in lategame TvP. A lot of people argue that Terran needed a unit that requires less micro (in a sense) and the Hellbat is very similar to the chargelot in that respect. It's an A-move unit, which is perfectly fine. It was designed literally as an a-move type of chargelot counter to help lategame TvP and was supposed to also have been designed to make mech TvP more viable (if anyone remembers those beta videos of hellbats/tanks on a ramp vs chargelot/archon).
On July 03 2013 20:42 Strelok wrote: Many people are complainting about hellbat drop play. Zergs, protosses and some terrans who want to play bio in TvT and struggle hard against mech style (Taeja, Bomber, MKP, Tarson e.t.c). Yes, hellbat drops openers are one of the strongest openers for terran. But why is that so hard to nerf it for Blizzard?
Balance
I would say now balance is rather close to be called "good". June statistics shows some advantage for protosses, but still. Some race will always have small advantage. It doesn't mean balance is bad overall. So if you take one of the strongest terran weapons away, you need to give them other weapon. If there won't be a hellbat drop possibility, zergs and protosses won't make fast defences and will do way better eco, so terran win rate will fall drastically (as it was already in WoL when "queens instead of sunkens" eco stuff brought huge zerg domination). So what weapon can substitute hellbat drops? Only a banshee. But if you nerf hellbat and raise banshee what will it change in game? Everyone will stop using hellbat drops and start using banshee. And there will be complaints about imba banshees from zergs, protosses and those terrans who don't like banshee and would like to use hellbat drops more. More then that - on non-pro level, terrans won't be able to win against other races, because hellbats are the only attacking unit of terran with a small multitask/micro requirement.
Role of hellbats in game
If we don't count drops in the beginning, hellbats are not that good. Their HP/Range make them rather bad choice for late game. Usually you just make 5-6 to tank damage. So if you nerf the possibility of their using in beginning, you will receive 1 more useless unit in game.
Possibility to mech game (especially in TvP)
Even now - TvP meching is way harder then bioing. If you nerf hellbats - it will be almost impossible. Yes, it damages mech terrans, like me - way more, but i am sure it has always to be a possibility to play mech for people who don't want to play bio. So with hellbat nerf, Blizzard will need to give other strong weapon for mech terrans.
What do i propose?
I don't propose to nerf hellbats or not to nerf. All i want to say - Blizzard needs to do everything very ACCURATE and CAREFULL, otherwise you will receive same stuff as it was in WoL, when "small raise of queens and overlord speed" leaded to a total zerg domination until HotS and the retirement of many terran players.
For those who can't understand what i mean, i say straight:
1. Every nerf weakens race. 2. Terran is not imba now, so you don't need to nerf it. 3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something. 4. And this buff has to affect mech more then bio, because nerf of hellbats affects mech play more then bio.
I do not think the purpose of this nerf is to weaken mech players. This nerf seems to try to add diversity to the early - mid game of TvT. Think of the last TvT that the players decided to not got for hellbat drops? Chances are they lost if they didnt go for them.
On the flip side, I do agree that with a hellbat nerf that the late game mech composition will be weaker. I feel that this should not happen. The idea is to diversify the early-mid game TvT, not weaken mech play. Therefor; after the blue flame upgrade that the hellbats will be just the same as they were before the nerf. That way we see more diversity TvT early - mid game and not nerf the late game composition to mech and also the upgrade allows you to start hellbat dropping.
the problem is that an army full of double marines(cost of a hellbat) shouldn't be that tanky and does massive amount of aoe damage vs all units in late game. you dont see late game pvt where terran goes mass marines and 3 marauders to win the game like how mech terrans are right now with 30 hellbats and maybe 4 tanks. on top of that, they're an A-move unit, yes, a move unit, at least you have to micro marines, but with these things you can send them into storm and they will come out fine. don't understand what concept of this unit needs to stop being so good do you guys not understand.
We are going to have different views on this. I do not think that hellbats are a 1a unit because of their range being so crappy . The damage is done usually when dropped on top of an army to fully benefit from their splash dmg. However; in retrospect, They are quite beefy for thier cost and being light units. AND being able to heal from medivac seems like too much. I dunno.
I do think that mech terran vrs protoss comes down to shutting down terrans harassment successfully early on. Its not a question of whats stronger cause left alone protoss can get the economy and production to deal with mech.
On July 04 2013 00:05 Thrillz wrote: Problem: TvT is where it lies. It's fine in TvZ and TvP (essential in TvP in fact).
The dilemma of this is:
How do you change it in TvT without destroying it's role in the other matchups?
i wish everyone thought that was the case. however most zergs and protosses say its too strong in zvt and pvt as well.
if everyone thought only tvt was a problem then the blue flame upgrade idea would be simple having them 18 (22 vs light) instead of 18 (30 vs light) by default so they would 3 shot scvs but 2 shot other workers. and blue flame just giving them +8 additional to light so they get same damage as now after all hellions 4 shots scvs and 3 shots other workers
but because tosses and zergs think they are too strong too blizzard has to make the hellbats deal <20 vs light before blue flame upgrade which might (not sure) make hellbat drops not even worth bothering with in the other match-ups
i think tvt is a bit silly now tvz it feels like theres no reason not to open 2base hellbat drops cause nothing else forces as much investment to defenses for as little cost as possible at such an early stage. tvp opening hellbat drops is a gamble and its more about how good toss is at reacting rather than the investments he has to put into defense, which makes me think its fine in tvp
i think blizzard will make them deal +0 vs light before the blue flame upgrade to keep things simple, its quite a nerf though. im just not sure how i will keep up with the zergs then seeing how much my play relies on hellbat drops forcing zergs not to go full on drones, the koreans will figure something out :p
On July 04 2013 00:15 Zarahtra wrote: Personally I'd be most interested in doing it zerg style and removing the engi bay requirement of turrets(and rather say rax requirement). People keep saying "hellbat drops are only a problem in TvT" and then they go "we need to do a straight up nerf for all MUs".
The effects of such a change would admittedly change TvP openers a bit, since nowadays, people normally open up with engi bay due to possible oracles, so it'd probably have very minimal effects on surviving the oracles, but it'd possibly allow terran to be slightly greedier, which isn't (necesarily) a good thing. For TvZ, the effect would be minimal at best, since when it'd matter, people will have 2 engi bays down anyway.
DTs hate your idea. They already feel pretty useless but now detection is even easier.
off-topic but both spores and DT tech were buffed, while terrans detection was not. makes sense slightly at least. however i dont think removing ebay tech will change the fact that hellbats kill scvs in an instant while the units attacking the hellbats cant possibly kill them as fast as youd like.
a hellbat drop in tvt makes for a scv pull losing about 100 minerals right there and kills 2~ scvs which is another 100 minerals plus more and more damage over time. this is pretty much worst case scenario as well, sometimes they kill a ton of workers or cause a ton of loss mining time. the turret doesnt guarantee kill the medivac during a hellbat drop unless it commits into the mineral line completely. it only adds damage and unables the hellbats to be picked up once they are committed.
On July 03 2013 20:42 Strelok wrote: Many people are complainting about hellbat drop play. Zergs, protosses and some terrans who want to play bio in TvT and struggle hard against mech style (Taeja, Bomber, MKP, Tarson e.t.c). Yes, hellbat drops openers are one of the strongest openers for terran. But why is that so hard to nerf it for Blizzard?
Balance
I would say now balance is rather close to be called "good". June statistics shows some advantage for protosses, but still. Some race will always have small advantage. It doesn't mean balance is bad overall. So if you take one of the strongest terran weapons away, you need to give them other weapon. If there won't be a hellbat drop possibility, zergs and protosses won't make fast defences and will do way better eco, so terran win rate will fall drastically (as it was already in WoL when "queens instead of sunkens" eco stuff brought huge zerg domination). So what weapon can substitute hellbat drops? Only a banshee. But if you nerf hellbat and raise banshee what will it change in game? Everyone will stop using hellbat drops and start using banshee. And there will be complaints about imba banshees from zergs, protosses and those terrans who don't like banshee and would like to use hellbat drops more. More then that - on non-pro level, terrans won't be able to win against other races, because hellbats are the only attacking unit of terran with a small multitask/micro requirement.
Role of hellbats in game
If we don't count drops in the beginning, hellbats are not that good. Their HP/Range make them rather bad choice for late game. Usually you just make 5-6 to tank damage. So if you nerf the possibility of their using in beginning, you will receive 1 more useless unit in game.
Possibility to mech game (especially in TvP)
Even now - TvP meching is way harder then bioing. If you nerf hellbats - it will be almost impossible. Yes, it damages mech terrans, like me - way more, but i am sure it has always to be a possibility to play mech for people who don't want to play bio. So with hellbat nerf, Blizzard will need to give other strong weapon for mech terrans.
What do i propose?
I don't propose to nerf hellbats or not to nerf. All i want to say - Blizzard needs to do everything very ACCURATE and CAREFULL, otherwise you will receive same stuff as it was in WoL, when "small raise of queens and overlord speed" leaded to a total zerg domination until HotS and the retirement of many terran players.
For those who can't understand what i mean, i say straight:
1. Every nerf weakens race. 2. Terran is not imba now, so you don't need to nerf it. 3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something. 4. And this buff has to affect mech more then bio, because nerf of hellbats affects mech play more then bio.
I do not think the purpose of this nerf is to weaken mech players. This nerf seems to try to add diversity to the early - mid game of TvT. Think of the last TvT that the players decided to not got for hellbat drops? Chances are they lost if they didnt go for them.
On the flip side, I do agree that with a hellbat nerf that the late game mech composition will be weaker. I feel that this should not happen. The idea is to diversify the early-mid game TvT, not weaken mech play. Therefor; after the blue flame upgrade that the hellbats will be just the same as they were before the nerf. That way we see more diversity TvT early - mid game and not nerf the late game composition to mech and also the upgrade allows you to start hellbat dropping.
the problem is that an army full of double marines(cost of a hellbat) shouldn't be that tanky and does massive amount of aoe damage vs all units in late game. you dont see late game pvt where terran goes mass marines and 3 marauders to win the game like how mech terrans are right now with 30 hellbats and maybe 4 tanks. on top of that, they're an A-move unit, yes, a move unit, at least you have to micro marines, but with these things you can send them into storm and they will come out fine. don't understand what concept of this unit needs to stop being so good do you guys not understand.
It's interesting that you exactly just described the chargelot in lategame TvP. A lot of people argue that Terran needed a unit that requires less micro (in a sense) and the Hellbat is very similar to the chargelot in that respect. It's an A-move unit, which is perfectly fine. It was designed literally as an a-move type of chargelot counter to help lategame TvP and was supposed to also have been designed to make mech TvP more viable (if anyone remembers those beta videos of hellbats/tanks on a ramp vs chargelot/archon).
the problem is that late game terran army is viking + ghosts, not tier 1.5 units that costs minerals only and have more impact than traditional army. in my opinion, chargelots are utterly useless vs any sort of hellbat composition, regardless of early, mid, or late game. what does protoss do when chargelots are the bread and butter of the protoss and doesn't work? they try to make stalkers(cheapest least-gas costly next to zealots for tier 1-1.5 units), and they still get shit on by any sorts of hellbat composition(medivac heal + the nature of the hellbat damage and hi marauders). Besides that, hellbats gets auto healed when taken damage, and are easily replaceable to marines, they don't need stim(takes hp away from marines, meaning medivacs have more energy to heal other units that are stimed,), they are hella more tankier than marines(a lot better vs splash based units like collosus and high templar), easy to make out of reactors, and does splash. is this really a type of unit that is equally powerful throughout every phase of the game? i dont think so.
Edit: hellbats are slow, so they dont have too much mobility to micro with (compare to stimmed marine and marauder), makes them an a-move unit with the nature of their hp and damage setup.
Avilo - Your idea about making thehellbats not biological is an idea. I am a protoss player so I am against this (archons being my key to beating mech right now) but I haven't played against hellbats without the biological tag so I cant really address that. It seems logical that it puts a timer on the harass, still the terran can just go back and repair while more drops on the way. slows down the hellbat drops per minute a bit.
Side note: hellbat drops per minute is a thing. Thats not good.
Morrow - As a protoss I feel that hellbat drops aren't too difficult to deal with. just have to react and see it coming like most harasses. Totally agree that TvT is silly. I thought that defensive widow mines and turret would be the new thing, but hellbats defend hellbat drops better, so like the counter to hellbats is hellbats. Seems dumb.
Can anyone of the fellow pros lurking around here explain how Hellbats can be essential in TvP? After all Protoss has gotten no addition since WoL and in WoL TvP was completely fine. I thought after 3 years that matchup is somewhere figured out. It is still Bio with Vikings or Ghosts vs the usual Protoss deathball most of the time after all.
I wouldn't mind hellbats so much (after all, Zergs did have to deal with reavers, HTs, vultures and hellions too) if it was as easy to deal with them as it is to drop them. Reavers are easy to kill. HTs are easy to kill. Vultures and hellions are slightly harder, but mainly because of their mobility. Why the fuck does Terran get to have a dropping unit that can literally sit there and eat 100 shots from a queen and can only really be destroyed by a combination of roach/queen?
Dropping means you are automatically and knowingly sacrificing an partial army/positional advantage to gain an economic advantage that'll pay off. I should expect to kill a 1-medivac drop with a relatively small force because I know that I still have the army advantage even if I divert a bit of my army to defense. But I can't do that with hellbats because a bigger chunk of my army still doesn't mean I enough of an advantage to nullify the drop. Combine this with the fact that medivacs give a durable unit the ability to zip around (thus having the advantage of both speed and armor) and I feel like I'm constantly trying to fight off a Storm Spirit-Lifestealer infest bomb from DotA 2.
Blizzard has tried to be careful by gathering feedback from everyone, what more 'caution' do you want them to do?, perhaps sit around a table for another year cautiously planning a single change while the game continues in this manner?.
The complaints are that the risk/reward makes hell bat drops a stable choice and that's only going to stagnate Terran over time, the games for spectators become stales and everyone ends up cheering for the underdog which we saw in WoL when Z were getting slaughtered by everything and the Nerf fell on T patch after patch.
Avilo pointed out the exact thing a lot of people have already said, just remove the biological tag. It cures peoples worries about hellbats viability late game (helps them TvP) and puts a much more significant timer on the drops. All without making the drops ineffective because not recognizing the drop can still allow hellbats to do game ending damage, as it should be.
As they stand right now an opponent can recognize the drop, and the drop can still more then pay for itself. No harassment option should be so strong that it will work even if your opponent is prepared for it. Your opponent having to be prepared for the drop is damage in itself, being able to do additional damage despite your opponent recognizing it makes no sense.
On July 04 2013 01:08 Aunvilgod wrote: Can anyone of the fellow pros lurking around here explain how Hellbats can be essential in TvP? After all Protoss has gotten no addition since WoL and in WoL TvP was completely fine. I thought after 3 years that matchup is somewhere figured out. It is still Bio with Vikings or Ghosts vs the usual Protoss deathball most of the time after all.
Ill answer this. The no addition is wrong. We have a mothership core which makes us extremely safe to early game. Hellbats are a nice touch when facing a zlot heavy army where they getting eaten like dinner. also since hellbats arent that expensive, doing hellbat drops can have quite a nice reward without too much of a risk (2 hellbats + medivac costs less that a collu).
On July 04 2013 01:11 Nerski wrote: Avilo pointed out the exact thing a lot of people have already said, just remove the biological tag. It cures peoples worries about hellbats viability late game (helps them TvP) and puts a much more significant timer on the drops. All without making the drops ineffective because not recognizing the drop can still allow hellbats to do game ending damage, as it should be.
As they stand right now an opponent can recognize the drop, and the drop can still more then pay for itself. No harassment option should be so strong that it will work even if your opponent is prepared for it. Your opponent having to be prepared for the drop is damage in itself, being able to do additional damage despite your opponent recognizing it makes no sense.
I think it would be just as good to make them 3 shot workers, rather than 2. Or delay their first shot after they are dropped. Right now, there is no animation when they are dropped and a hellbat unloads its first attack almost the instant it hits the ground. A delay on that wouldn't require any change to the units stats or its ability as a combat unit, but would give a little more time for workers to escape.
I play protoss and am currently in platinum, so my opinion doesnt/shouldnt carry much weight, but hellbats mid and late game make big zealot warp-ins a joke, as someone stated fairly early into this discussion. They add massive value at multiple points of the game in my experiences.
On July 04 2013 01:08 Aunvilgod wrote: Can anyone of the fellow pros lurking around here explain how Hellbats can be essential in TvP? After all Protoss has gotten no addition since WoL and in WoL TvP was completely fine. I thought after 3 years that matchup is somewhere figured out. It is still Bio with Vikings or Ghosts vs the usual Protoss deathball most of the time after all.
disregarding balance i think blizzard wanted terran to have a bit more options in their army compositions in the midgame. in wol protoss could go colo tree or ht tree, mix in archons or not etc while terrans did MMM + viking, or no viking
having hellbats is simply more fun to have that option in tvp instead of always playing exactly same army composition
its not like hellbats are simply better to go for in tvp than without, we dont see it every game and it works better against some protoss compositions and worse against others. which just makes it for better game i think
even though WoL was fine, blizzard tried with hots to look for ways to make things even better, adding things even if they were not absolutely needed
On July 04 2013 01:11 Nerski wrote: Avilo pointed out the exact thing a lot of people have already said, just remove the biological tag. It cures peoples worries about hellbats viability late game (helps them TvP) and puts a much more significant timer on the drops. All without making the drops ineffective because not recognizing the drop can still allow hellbats to do game ending damage, as it should be.
As they stand right now an opponent can recognize the drop, and the drop can still more then pay for itself. No harassment option should be so strong that it will work even if your opponent is prepared for it. Your opponent having to be prepared for the drop is damage in itself, being able to do additional damage despite your opponent recognizing it makes no sense.
I think it would be just as good to make them 3 shot workers, rather than 2. Or delay their first shot after they are dropped. Right now, there is no animation when they are dropped and a hellbat unloads its first attack almost the instant it hits the ground. A delay on that wouldn't require any change to the units stats or its ability as a combat unit, but would give a little more time for workers to escape.
As true as this may be, The hellbat attacks when dropped. Its priority of attack is the nearest thing attacking it first, then the nearest thing second. So having a tank or a spine or a cannon in the mineral line is essential to reducing hellbats dmg for its harass henceforth giving you that little extra time.
I think the Hellbat is a stupid/strange unit, they should meake a few changes to it.
How it is now: - Hellions can not be healed by Medivacs, but Hellbat can. Why? I don't like this. - 4 Hellions fit in a Medivac, but only 2 Hellbats? Why? Do they gain mass when tranformating? Come on, this is strange.
How i would like it to be: - Hellbats can not be healed by Medivacs and can not be loaded into Medivacs in Hellbat form. - Decrease cost and reseatch time for the Hellbat upgrade. - Increase speed of the transformation Hellion, so that loeading Hellions into Medivac,dropping Hellions, transforming into Hellbat becomes playable.
This would add to ne synergy of the game and make the Hellion/Hellbat a normal unit, not a unit with special rules.
I thought we learned our lesson from WoL or BW or any game in existance?
It doesn't matter that Hellbats are OP or whatever. What matters is that they turned one of HotS's best match-ups (TvT) into one of HotS's worst match-ups. You know what this looks and feels like? 4-gate in WoL PvP. Think about that for a second. For the sake of the match-up, they need to change.
I quite agree with Strelok's opening post and in my mind there is one more solution that isn't considered yet:
Why don't we have the Missile Turret deal more damage to medivacs? That way, the healing power is quickly gone and it is somewhat easier to defend drops in TvT. I can see that this causes some problems with other harassing styles in TvT but it seems to me this is similar to the Spore Crawler change against Mutalisks. Or maybe widow mines could play a more active role and deal enough damage to kill a medivac (something like x damage + energy damage such as feedback).
I think hellbat drops are a good part of the game, but it is now to easy to execute them and too hard to defend your workers. With the above change, they will still exist and you would have to rely on scouting to build a missile turret/widow mine for your opponent's hellbat drops or you can just build 1 or 2 blindly.
On July 04 2013 01:18 FakiVII wrote: I think the Hellbat is a stupid/strange unit, they should meake a few changes to it.
How it is now: - Hellions can not be healed by Medivacs, but Hellbat can. Why? I don't like this. - 4 Hellions fit in a Medivac, but only 2 Hellbats? Why? Do they gain mass when tranformating? Come on, this is strange.
How i would like it to be: - Hellbats can not be healed by Medivacs and can not be loaded into Medivacs in Hellbat form. - Decrease cost and reseatch time for the Hellbat upgrade. - Increase speed of the transformation Hellion, so that loeading Hellions into Medivac,dropping Hellions, transforming into Hellbat becomes playable.
This would add to ne synergy of the game and make the Hellion/Hellbat a normal unit, not a unit with special rules.
I kinda agree but wouldn't it be more strange if you couldn't pick even 2 in medivac O_o
I play every race in diamond, not that it is good accomplishment, but i feel like balance has not been this good ever. Yeah terran got some nice stuff speed medivacs, hellbats but before that in end of wol zergs could play so greedy against terran even tvp was so hard because of mass warp ins and zealot harrass (which are still soooooooo good, go look recent IMFirst OSL games) All you really have to do is scout what terran is doing and prepare. Not really hard to put some anti-air ready before drop and target queens.
On July 04 2013 00:15 Zarahtra wrote: Personally I'd be most interested in doing it zerg style and removing the engi bay requirement of turrets(and rather say rax requirement). People keep saying "hellbat drops are only a problem in TvT" and then they go "we need to do a straight up nerf for all MUs".
The effects of such a change would admittedly change TvP openers a bit, since nowadays, people normally open up with engi bay due to possible oracles, so it'd probably have very minimal effects on surviving the oracles, but it'd possibly allow terran to be slightly greedier, which isn't (necesarily) a good thing. For TvZ, the effect would be minimal at best, since when it'd matter, people will have 2 engi bays down anyway.
DTs hate your idea. They already feel pretty useless but now detection is even easier.
Well it'd not really change anything for DTs, if turrets aren't down preemptively, you're pretty screwed anyway. It's not like with zerg where you can start like 6 spores and just cancel everyone except the first to finish.
The issue is that turrets can be erected without the need for an engineering bay. So early dts while being a threat, still have to dodge around until scan is all used up. The time it takes to build an engineering bay + turrets can be devastating, but one turret getting made in time without the ebay will spoil the riches for the DT.
On July 04 2013 00:26 willstertben wrote: haha i read all of that in streloks voice.
to your point: blizzard has proposed nerfing hellbats like this: take away bonus to light, add it again through researching blue flame upgrade. they would be weaker in the beginning (NEEDED) and on same strength later (for negligible cost).
(not needed in my opinion, i think they're too strong in general, drops or no drops, but that's irrelevant to my point)
i disagree with having to buff something else terran has. the even win rates are caused mainly by metagame (blind 3 oc rush from terrans vs roach bling allins) rather than it being balanced.
I still wonder if they are going through with this change or will attempt another one. If this change is done, 2 hellbats in a dropship can't 1 shot worker lines so it seems to me that the fast hellbat drop openings will be completely useless
I agree with you Strelok but I think there are other alternatives than just buffing one unit if hellbat is nerfed.
If you look at balance like a (simple) algebraic equation, there are a ton of variables to be considered, hellbat being one among many. So that if the current state of the game is:
hellbat + tank + banshee + ...(every other terran unit) = balanced
Then you can decrease the value of hellbats and give several small increases to other units to fill the gap:
Now, obviously the game is much more complicated than that and you'll have to consider the impact of every variable on the dynamic of all matchups, I'm simply trying to say that there's more options out there than nerf X/buff Y.
On July 04 2013 00:36 lichter wrote: If only it were possible to change hellbat drops in TvT without affecting the other matchups. I think hellbats are fine in vP and vZ. It only really spoils the TvT mirror, from a viewer's perspective. There is nothing wrong with the balance. It is just really not fun to watch.
I dont agree at all. Hellbats come really early vs every race. There is NO reason not to do hellbats for zerg or protoss. The reward to risk is very high, in favor of reward. You can send 4 medivacs in and not kill any drones (but it is still a cost efficient trade because zerg has to pull EVERYTHING off mining so it actually doesn't put terran behind at all and sometimes terran still comes out ahead because of it) but then you send in another medivac and it kills everything because the player doesnt react right away. Oh, and I forgot to mention when seeing one hellbat drop, it forces a spore and spine in every base. That's usually 6 drones (since zergs are going fast 3 bases) and 575 minerals for static defense. And even this isn't a deterrent for terrans to not hellbat drop, as long as medvac stays out of range but can still heal, queen and spines don't stop it too quickly. It is just incredibly tanky and too cost efficient. The blue flame upgrade actually gives it some more risk to reward and it will come out slower so its not such a big investment for each race to try and defend so early. People aren't taking into account what happens to an economy when hellbats force all works in a base to be pulled for a significant amount of time.
On July 04 2013 00:15 Zarahtra wrote: Personally I'd be most interested in doing it zerg style and removing the engi bay requirement of turrets(and rather say rax requirement). People keep saying "hellbat drops are only a problem in TvT" and then they go "we need to do a straight up nerf for all MUs".
The effects of such a change would admittedly change TvP openers a bit, since nowadays, people normally open up with engi bay due to possible oracles, so it'd probably have very minimal effects on surviving the oracles, but it'd possibly allow terran to be slightly greedier, which isn't (necesarily) a good thing. For TvZ, the effect would be minimal at best, since when it'd matter, people will have 2 engi bays down anyway.
DTs hate your idea. They already feel pretty useless but now detection is even easier.
Well it'd not really change anything for DTs, if turrets aren't down preemptively, you're pretty screwed anyway. It's not like with zerg where you can start like 6 spores and just cancel everyone except the first to finish.
The issue is that turrets can be erected without the need for an engineering bay. So early dts while being a threat, still have to dodge around until scan is all used up. The time it takes to build an engineering bay + turrets can be devastating, but one turret getting made in time without the ebay will spoil the riches for the DT.
Removing the ebay requirement will enable two more turrets to bring it total to 4 turrets and a widow mine to be up before the 7:30min mark, assuming the scouting SCV or scan spots the early Armory.
But this also means, the <7min Oracle harass is dead as is the 3-5 muta harass in the same window.
While I agree with most of your points I'm pretty sure this cause is already lost. The problem with hellbat nerf is that Blizzard has no idea what to leave in it's place. The compensation banshee cloak buff was a terrible idea only likely to break TvT and I doubt anything better will be proposed. Balance is sadly a more complex issue than just adjusting tank damage.
I think that hellbats are another case of "terrible damage" in SC2 - the amount of damage they do is based on split second decisions from both sides (how the defender micros workers, and where the terran drops the bats) and to have such a game-changing event be based upon split second decisions is not good for the game imo.
The other issue in TvT is that if banshee cloak gets buffed, terrans will need to make marines to defend against banshees, but marines are terrible against hellbats! So it might cause a situation where you have to pretty much guess whether your opponent is going hellbats or banshees, as marines are good vs banshees but terrible vs hellbats.
I don't know why Blizzard have never thought of buffing terran defensively as opposed to offensively. Protoss and Zerg were buffed defensively (queens and mothership core respectively), so why not move terrans in that direction too?
What I'd love to see is a game that is based less on build orders / catching your opponent by surprise, and more on mechanics and tactical army movement etc.
Solution: buff hellions. It's not like hellions do anything mid and late game in any matchup. And change the hellbat bonus damage from light to armored.
Anyway hellbats are fine, I reckon soon people will start using skyterran vs hellbat builds.
On July 04 2013 00:15 Zarahtra wrote: Personally I'd be most interested in doing it zerg style and removing the engi bay requirement of turrets(and rather say rax requirement). People keep saying "hellbat drops are only a problem in TvT" and then they go "we need to do a straight up nerf for all MUs".
The effects of such a change would admittedly change TvP openers a bit, since nowadays, people normally open up with engi bay due to possible oracles, so it'd probably have very minimal effects on surviving the oracles, but it'd possibly allow terran to be slightly greedier, which isn't (necesarily) a good thing. For TvZ, the effect would be minimal at best, since when it'd matter, people will have 2 engi bays down anyway.
DTs hate your idea. They already feel pretty useless but now detection is even easier.
Well it'd not really change anything for DTs, if turrets aren't down preemptively, you're pretty screwed anyway. It's not like with zerg where you can start like 6 spores and just cancel everyone except the first to finish.
The issue is that turrets can be erected without the need for an engineering bay. So early dts while being a threat, still have to dodge around until scan is all used up. The time it takes to build an engineering bay + turrets can be devastating, but one turret getting made in time without the ebay will spoil the riches for the DT.
My point is rather, you prepare for oracles and as a side effect dts are pretty much fucked anyway. Engi bay is currently up before dts hit, so this changes nothing in dts effectiveness(as in you could get as many scans/kills as before, but the terran might be in a better spot before the dts hit). Like I've been highlighting is that the difference would be that terran could be greedier and skip the engi bay that is a requirement in current play, which is hard to judge the effects of.
On July 04 2013 02:38 Lock0n wrote: Solution: buff hellions. It's not like hellions do anything mid and late game in any matchup. And change the hellbat bonus damage from light to armored.
Anyway hellbats are fine, I reckon soon people will start using skyterran vs hellbat builds.
I'm actually with this. I'd be happy if hellbats were deleted and standard hellions had increased damage vs heavy units. Would help the issue of roach all ins in early game as well (which suck to defend against if you go for a hellion opener)
The problem is that Terran as a race is not overpowered (win rates look fairly even, recent win rates even slightly favor Protoss, especially in Korea) but Hellbats are simply too strong. I'm not sure if they are too strong in TvP or TvZ, but they are definitely way too strong and forgivable to use in TvT, to a point where I don't even feel like playing TvT anymore and TvT was my favorite matchup in WoL.
I would love to see Hellbats nerfed. Perhaps not the unit itself but definitely Hellbat drops, I don't think just removing the "bio" tag would be enough of a nerf though. They should remove the "bio" tag and maybe buff Turrets vs. Medivacs aswell.
A speed medivac can fly over a turret and still unload the hellbats, that in my book is the actual problem. If a player has a turret in place and is prepared for your harrass, you shouldn't just be able to fly over it and ignore it.
The problem seems less significant in TvZ and TvP because P and Z both have supply-free ways of defending the Hellbat once they are unloaded, Cannons can hit the medivac and force the hellbat's AI to attack it and so can spine crawlers or spore crawlers.
A terran on the other hand would have to put a bunker behind every mineral line (100 mins) and 4 supply worth of units into it (200 mins), ideally with a turret (another 100 mins). edit: On 2 base that's a solid 800 mins investment and 8 supply of units, just to be safe vs 1 medivac speed boosting around with hellbats. Not even counting the cost of the engineering bay which you are forced to build now and could happily skip in WoL TvT if you scouted no banshees.
So while there are supply-free ways for P and Z to mitigate Hellbat damage, Terran always has to invest supply and more minerals into achieving the same and if you do that and your opponent just doesnt drop you have effectively wasted supply and money on defending something that never actually hit you. In a mirror that is especially painful.
former high master/low gm here (before I quit thx to hellbats), in case it matters.
You are pretty hilarious Strelok... Hellbat is the most broken unit i have ever seen in my 12 years of rts, the unit counter everything, a 100 mineral unit that deals 30 damage with splash to light, can be healed and repaired and never fucking dies (mini ultralisk). So excuse me but you are terrible wrong. There is no such thing as nerf hellbat to buff something. Terran is pretty solid and strong @ hots with new reapers, turbovacs, free siege tanks, mines hellbats and ravens. Basically terran got buffed really hard, when they nerf battle hellion they will balance the race and the unit and thats what must be done QUICKLY.
And also the problem isnt just the drop play that is broken, but the unit itself too. Even the koreans progamers admits that the unit need big nerf, my example is one of these koreans which play @ NA told me that, when i lost a game vs him to mass hellbats with few tanks when i attacked him with 160 pop of roaches. And im top 20gm i didnt 1A him my attack was pretty solid with decent spread out to avoid splash from tanks and hellbats and the guy still defended. Since when hellbats were supposed to kill roaches? There isnt a counter to hellbats, especially for zergs, the unit is good and cost effective vs anything.
Blizzard balance team must be blind or something, protoss is the best race in the game and they buff warp prism (TOTALLY UNNECESSARY, this will broke pvz because zerg cant deal with warp prisms as terrans for example). So they buffed warp prism instead of nerfing hellbats first. I honestly have no idea what they are doing. All they have to do is remove bio tag + associate the blue flame with hellbat, so hellbats at beguining wont deal 30 damage @ mineral lines and zergling especially...
Hellbats are fine in all match ups except for TvT. Somehow they need to be just nerfed in one matchup while maintaining their strength in other matchups... difficult to do
On July 04 2013 02:38 Lock0n wrote: Solution: buff hellions. It's not like hellions do anything mid and late game in any matchup. And change the hellbat bonus damage from light to armored.
And as a next step let's completely rework ghosts? That's not going to happen as the change is far too drastic and wouldn't even be tried in beta. Especially since the old mass blue-flame hellions would easily be back and overpower roaches.
There is no good way to tackle hellbats since they have been added to game without thinking. If mech play would work without them a compensated nerf could be fine but as is you could just as well sledgehammer nerf the marine and expect bio play to be fine.
Nerf hellbats and bring back classic blue flame, easy fix. Hellbats should only tank damage, not annihilate everything when dropped out of a medivac. Blue flame hellions are amazing in the hands of good players and bad in the hands of those who aren't good.
On July 04 2013 02:38 Lock0n wrote: Solution: buff hellions. It's not like hellions do anything mid and late game in any matchup. And change the hellbat bonus damage from light to armored.
And as a next step let's completely rework ghosts? That's not going to happen as the change is far too drastic and wouldn't even be tried in beta. Especially since the old mass blue-flame hellions would easily be back and overpower roaches.
lol? old BF upgrade didn't affect damage v armored only gave a +10 bonus to light, instead of +5. That nerf made it so BF hellions would no longer 2 shot workers and marines, but honestly I feel like that would be fine in current meta game and skill level of everyone.
On July 04 2013 02:51 AlphaMan wrote: Hellbats are fine in all match ups except for TvT. Somehow they need to be just nerfed in one matchup while maintaining their strength in other matchups... difficult to do
Do you think nearly every zerg is complaining about them just for the hell of it? Theres no reason to do anything but hellbat drop s in tvz, potentially game ending damage and if zerg defends it perfectly its not even an advantage for zerg.
The problem with Hellbats, Marines and Terran is general is the following. Marines are generally the backbone of the Terran army and do so better than the mineral only units other races. Thus, they can be mixed very easily with the gas heavy core units from the Factory or Starpart (Mech units). The cost and sheer effectiveness of Marines means that Terran can combine Marines with the strong units of different play styles very easily. It is why the 1-1-1 and 1-1-2 were so dominant for so long.
Because Marines can be mixed easily with Mech units to create powerful timings, it is hard to buff the base Mech units too much (unless there is a corresponding nerf to Marines).
Hellbats are an attempt by Blizzard to create another mineral only unit, specifically for Mech players. The problem is pretty simple, Marines are really, really good, and thus if the Hellbat doesn't warrant it's cost, then people will just go back to building Marines. If it is too good, then people won't build Marines, they will build Hellbats. That leaves Blizzard in a very difficult position, and it has tried to carefully balance Hellbats. Unfortunately, Blizzard hasn't done a great job, as the Hellbat is best used a harass unit.
But it is also the best unit in the game when it comes to killing light units. People have run tests showing that light units (Zerglings and Zealots) are far less effective versus Hellbats than Colossus or Archons. So I understand why Protoss players have issues with the unit. There is something wrong when 4 Hellbats (400 minerals, 0 gas) are better than two Archons (200 minerals/600 gas if made with HT's) in almost every situation.
Removing the Bio Tag is probably a good start. But in the end the Hellbat is just poorly designed. It could be so different. It doesn't need to be so weak, cheap and a transformation of the Hellion. It also doesn't need to only cost minerals. Imagine if the Warhound had two big twin flame throwers and cost a lot. Something like that is what Blizzard should have made.
On July 04 2013 01:10 aka_star wrote: Blizzard has tried to be careful by gathering feedback from everyone, what more 'caution' do you want them to do?, perhaps sit around a table for another year cautiously planning a single change while the game continues in this manner?.
The complaints are that the risk/reward makes hell bat drops a stable choice and that's only going to stagnate Terran over time, the games for spectators become stales and everyone ends up cheering for the underdog which we saw in WoL when Z were getting slaughtered by everything and the Nerf fell on T patch after patch.
Blizzard doesnt need "more caution" ... they need to get rid of "their vision of the game" which includes ridiculously dumb mottos such as ...
Siege Tank based mech is boring and players like bio more, right?
Mobility is cool, so everyone wants to play that way, right?
Lets not be hasty about doing anything against the deathball because "players want to play that way", right?
More deaths and a faster game mean the game is more exciting and thus better, right?
That isnt the whole list though, but the gist of it is that they are not interested in developing a free and creative game but only one which conforms to their vision of it. Kinda like a game with only quick time events to "play through" and no real meaningful alternatives.
There are many ways to nerf hellbats. For example, you don't nerf their effectiveness, but increase their cost so it becomes more risky investment. @OP do the pro players of other races agree on your stance, cause it may be biased. Also, you wont know something before you experience it. I see the point very well, but blizz has done a lot of reversals, so trying out nerfed hellbats wont be a big deal if it is done 'reasonably'. In case Terrans find this too much, it always can be reversed. There shouldn't be one style in TvT, like hellbat drops are becoming main stay. Either way it is too cost effective for what it does.
Terran's seem to be suffering from cognitive dissonance here pretty badly, first they point out why it's so hard to defend it in TvT, then they conveniently don't apply that to TvZ TvP. lol
On July 04 2013 03:58 sibs wrote: Terran's seem to be suffering from cognitive dissonance here pretty badly, first they point out why it's so hard to defend it in TvT, then they conveniently don't apply that to TvZ TvP. lol
It's much easier to defend in tvp with stalkers, zealots, and a mothership core.
TvZ is pretty easy to defend because you already have queens that can take out the medivacs and don't get raped by the hellbats, spore crawlers do crazy damage to medivacs.
As someone who plays random from time to time, it is much more difficult to defend in TvT.
On July 04 2013 01:11 Nerski wrote: Avilo pointed out the exact thing a lot of people have already said, just remove the biological tag. It cures peoples worries about hellbats viability late game (helps them TvP) and puts a much more significant timer on the drops. All without making the drops ineffective because not recognizing the drop can still allow hellbats to do game ending damage, as it should be.
As they stand right now an opponent can recognize the drop, and the drop can still more then pay for itself. No harassment option should be so strong that it will work even if your opponent is prepared for it. Your opponent having to be prepared for the drop is damage in itself, being able to do additional damage despite your opponent recognizing it makes no sense.
I think it would be just as good to make them 3 shot workers, rather than 2. Or delay their first shot after they are dropped. Right now, there is no animation when they are dropped and a hellbat unloads its first attack almost the instant it hits the ground. A delay on that wouldn't require any change to the units stats or its ability as a combat unit, but would give a little more time for workers to escape.
As true as this may be, The hellbat attacks when dropped. Its priority of attack is the nearest thing attacking it first, then the nearest thing second. So having a tank or a spine or a cannon in the mineral line is essential to reducing hellbats dmg for its harass henceforth giving you that little extra time.
A good point about their target priority. But I still advocate for a delay on attack during the drop. This will help Terrans defend better also, correct? Because hellbats do not auto-target turrets if SCVs are near. Then terrans do suffer the most from hellbat drops for yet another reason. And this will be the same issue with spores vs. sunkens... as a Z build at least 1 sunken before spore.
But if you give the hellbat drop a delay on attack, it will help everyone defend against them equally. And you have the option of doing it without having to spend as much on static defense.
Really, delay on attack makes the most sense to me at this point if it needs to be nerfed.
On July 04 2013 03:31 Lock0n wrote: Actually remove light tag from hellions and SCVs and problem solved.
That makes them less vulnerable against Banelings too ... great suggestion! [/sarcasm off]
It's not like needing 3 banelings instead of 2 to kill 30 workers makes a difference, and how often are games decided by banelings attacking scvs anyway. Baneling busts rely on banelings to blow up bunkers/walls, then zerglings and roaches can kill the scvs. You only send banelings to scvs when there's like 20 of them clumped up. Once zerg is into production facilities then it's game over, doesn't matter how many scvs you have.
Any more zergs need tips on how to play? [/sarcasm on]
It's bad design again and i think he's off the money. Hellbats are too fucking cheap in terms of opportunity cost and raw cost for the very easy damage that they do. Especially in combination with the godly fast medivac. They should have had other options on the table when they were designing HoTS. When It was obvious that they couldnt get mech to work without a massive rejig they should have axed the hellbat and gotten something else in line (or maybe switch the damage for more health- maybe).
Only thing I like about the hell bat is that it kinda kills most of the arguments against having a reaver.
I think Bronze is probably on the money in terms of the connundrum faced. Rabiator also correct as usual about Blizzard forgetting that constraints and limitations are as important to a decent strategy as "buffing everything".
Idk Strelok's silence during periods of time where TvX was broken mnnn.
If we don't count drops in the beginning, hellbats are not that good.
There I disagree. At least in TvT I switched from bio-mech to mech because of hellbats in mid-late game: The frontal assault of a mech terran on a bio-mech terran is so enormously strong with hellbats. First because hellbats tank way more tank shots than bio will ever do. Second because loading a few medivacs with hellbats and dropping them right on top of the enemies army is so strong.
Certainly they are powerful in the midgame, but I find that their usefulness starts dropping in main army confrontations as the game progresses. They are sort of like roaches in this sense - sure, at around 12-15 minutes a hellbat/mech or hellbat/bio composition can have tons of straight up pushing power, and the effect of that is to stop overly greedy play.
A 2-base terran push can usually kill off the 3rd base, but a 3-base terran push can usually be deflected. Overall, if you scout and react accordingly by preparing appropriate defenses or countermeasures (for example, if you scout mech/hellbat coming, it would be wise to hide some units somewhere in the map for a potential flank), then you will be able to defend.
Lategame, every race has plenty of options which make hellbats merely a decent unit - colossi, templars, air, critical tank counts, swarm hosts, ultras...
That's merely my opinion though, which holds pretty much no value.
On July 04 2013 03:58 sibs wrote: Terran's seem to be suffering from cognitive dissonance here pretty badly, first they point out why it's so hard to defend it in TvT, then they conveniently don't apply that to TvZ TvP. lol
It's much easier to defend in tvp with stalkers, zealots, and a mothership core.
TvZ is pretty easy to defend because you already have queens that can take out the medivacs and don't get raped by the hellbats, spore crawlers do crazy damage to medivacs.
As someone who plays random from time to time, it is much more difficult to defend in TvT.
Terrible post i have to say, so much misinformation in it
Liquipedia stats :
Zerg Spores do Air DPS:17.4
Terran Turrets do Air DPS:27.9
Terran has all the units\structures required to stop Hellbat Drops. In fact the first unit available out of a Barracks hard counters Hellbats:-
Marines Range 5 v Hellbats Range 2
Do what Zerg and Protoss players do, pull workers, target Medivacs then kill Hellbats.
This is a skill issue nothing more, learn to scout , learn to react, learn to micro
Dude, Zergs have queens so hellbats always autoattack queens on landing. Terran has to micro each hellbat attack. And Protoss has planetary nexus, which guarantees dropship dying, and again hellbats auto attack nexus and cannons so hellbats have to be micro'd each attack.
Terrans has no such defence, the only way is so build a bunker with marines as well as a turret. This costs 400+ minerals, which is helluva lot more than a cannon or a spore. Hellbat drops are only good in TvT, in other matchups it's just used to annoy opponent and to take away apm so that whoever multitask better comes out on top.
On July 04 2013 03:58 sibs wrote: Terran's seem to be suffering from cognitive dissonance here pretty badly, first they point out why it's so hard to defend it in TvT, then they conveniently don't apply that to TvZ TvP. lol
It's much easier to defend in tvp with stalkers, zealots, and a mothership core.
TvZ is pretty easy to defend because you already have queens that can take out the medivacs and don't get raped by the hellbats, spore crawlers do crazy damage to medivacs.
As someone who plays random from time to time, it is much more difficult to defend in TvT.
Terrible post i have to say, so much misinformation in it
Liquipedia stats :
Zerg Spores do Air DPS:17.4
Terran Turrets do Air DPS:27.9
Terran has all the units\structures required to stop Hellbat Drops. In fact the first unit available out of a Barracks hard counters Hellbats:-
Marines Range 5 v Hellbats Range 2
Do what Zerg and Protoss players do, pull workers, target Medivacs then kill Hellbats.
This is a skill issue nothing more, learn to scout , learn to react, learn to micro
No he's completely right about Hellbat drops being more difficult to defend efficiently in TvT compared with TvP or TvZ, and you're the one posting something terrible with random numbers saying nothing about the actual scenarii occuring in games or simply the different dynamics of TvP, TvT and TvZ. Suggesting that Marines "hardcounter" Hellbats because they have +3 range is absolutely laughable. Please watch Bogus vs aLive, Whirlwind, WCS Global Finals and do come back telling us with a straight face how Marines "hardcounter" Hellbats.
First complaint: Widow Mine drops, too hard to deal with. Second complaint: Can't get third because of Bio drops. Third complaint: Hellbat drops. It's the Medivac guys, it's insane, look at it... We even saw Lucifron doing a Thor drop for christ sake, wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing Vikings load up in Medivacs to get places faster. There needs to be an energy cost on the afterburner, so you don't just macro it all the time. Hellbats as units are fine, they need to be good if they're to compete with Marines which has been the best mineral dump for Terrans since forever. You all also seem to forget that metagame changes, knew stuff gets discovered, when it isn't going too well for the race. Terran has enough tools to deal with a nerf to the hellbat drop. Sorry for ranting, but I'd also like to suggest that it would be good to reduce the cargo size of Hellbats back to what it was, if there were to be a nerf to the very imbalanced Medivac!
On July 03 2013 20:42 Strelok wrote: Many people are complainting about hellbat drop play. Zergs, protosses and some terrans who want to play bio in TvT and struggle hard against mech style (Taeja, Bomber, MKP, Tarson e.t.c). Yes, hellbat drops openers are one of the strongest openers for terran. But why is that so hard to nerf it for Blizzard?
Balance
I would say now balance is rather close to be called "good". June statistics shows some advantage for protosses, but still. Some race will always have small advantage. It doesn't mean balance is bad overall. So if you take one of the strongest terran weapons away, you need to give them other weapon. If there won't be a hellbat drop possibility, zergs and protosses won't make fast defences and will do way better eco, so terran win rate will fall drastically (as it was already in WoL when "queens instead of sunkens" eco stuff brought huge zerg domination). So what weapon can substitute hellbat drops? Only a banshee. But if you nerf hellbat and raise banshee what will it change in game? Everyone will stop using hellbat drops and start using banshee. And there will be complaints about imba banshees from zergs, protosses and those terrans who don't like banshee and would like to use hellbat drops more. More then that - on non-pro level, terrans won't be able to win against other races, because hellbats are the only attacking unit of terran with a small multitask/micro requirement.
Role of hellbats in game
If we don't count drops in the beginning, hellbats are not that good. Their HP/Range make them rather bad choice for late game. Usually you just make 5-6 to tank damage. So if you nerf the possibility of their using in beginning, you will receive 1 more useless unit in game.
Possibility to mech game (especially in TvP)
Even now - TvP meching is way harder then bioing. If you nerf hellbats - it will be almost impossible. Yes, it damages mech terrans, like me - way more, but i am sure it has always to be a possibility to play mech for people who don't want to play bio. So with hellbat nerf, Blizzard will need to give other strong weapon for mech terrans.
What do i propose?
I don't propose to nerf hellbats or not to nerf. All i want to say - Blizzard needs to do everything very ACCURATE and CAREFULL, otherwise you will receive same stuff as it was in WoL, when "small raise of queens and overlord speed" leaded to a total zerg domination until HotS and the retirement of many terran players.
For those who can't understand what i mean, i say straight:
1. Every nerf weakens race. 2. Terran is not imba now, so you don't need to nerf it. 3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something. 4. And this buff has to affect mech more then bio, because nerf of hellbats affects mech play more then bio.
False. Terran Imba. Sorry.
This is a bunch of balonie Strelok lol come on man you can't pretend Terran players throwing units away with minimal unit control while rapidly expanding the map and never falling behind is "not imba". Terran can expand and throw away units constantly because they are able to ALWAYS trade cost efficiently lol....this is not arguable.
The best way to deal with hellbats is increase cost to 100/25 instead of 100/0 lol just add 25 gas to cost and the ridiculous cost effectiveness is mitigated but still completely viable...
On July 04 2013 05:01 FrozenProbe wrote: So, terrans are like:
Hellbat OP nerf this shit now! But nerf it only for TvT because in the other MU's they're quite good, not an issue at all.
someone should add a trollface at those posts.
So then please, genius. Tell us how Blizzard should nerf Hellbats, without knocking down Terran to a win rate significantly lower than 50%. Right now the win rates are fairly close. Roughly 50% for all matchups. Now, let's look at this scenario. We nerf a Terran unit, in a matchup that does not seem Terran favored (statistically), what do we expect would happen?
I'm all for a nerf to Hellbats... in TvT. Other matchups are very even in numbers and in Korea Protoss actually outperformed Terran. I agree that Hellbats are a terrible unit, they made me quit the game. But you can't just go "herp derp nerf terran units" risking a shift in balance in favor of one of the other two races. because again, last month, in korea protoss already outperformed Terran.
Now granted there weren't that many games played (roughly 100 in TvP), but surely you would need at least some evidence to support your argument that TvP and TvZ are broken matchups and it's not in the numbers. So were did you get that assertion from? Or are we not substantiating our claims with actual evidence anymore?
On July 03 2013 20:42 Strelok wrote: 3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something.
Fix one thing that's broken, then make something else broken too? But why? If they nerf it slightly, like making the dmg vs light normal again, it'll make the game better balanced. Let's be honest, not only in TvT (where even terrans see how OP it is but don't like to admit it for other matchups) but in TvZ/TvP too, hellbats are quite ridiculously cost efficient. For the cheap cost of only minerals, there's no other unit that does so much for so little and is also with so much hp.
On July 03 2013 20:42 Strelok wrote: 3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something.
Fix one thing that's broken, then make something else broken too? But why? If they nerf it slightly, like making the dmg vs light normal again, it'll make the game better balanced. Let's be honest, not only in TvT (where even terrans see how OP it is but don't like to admit it for other matchups) but in TvZ/TvP too, hellbats are quite ridiculously cost efficient. For the cheap cost of only minerals, there's no other unit that does so much for so little and is also with so much hp.
Did you skip my post in which I explained why that is not an option? Protoss is already doing better than Terran in Korea. You nerf Terran, without any compensation. What do you expect would happen? Serious question. This is basic logic. I'm sure you can answer it.
I would say now balance is rather close to be called "good". June statistics shows some advantage for protosses, but still. Some race will always have small advantage. It doesn't mean balance is bad overall. So if you take one of the strongest terran weapons away, you need to give them other weapon. If there won't be a hellbat drop possibility, zergs and protosses won't make fast defences and will do way better eco, so terran win rate will fall drastically (as it was already in WoL when "queens instead of sunkens" eco stuff brought huge zerg domination). So what weapon can substitute hellbat drops? Only a banshee. But if you nerf hellbat and raise banshee what will it change in game? Everyone will stop using hellbat drops and start using banshee. And there will be complaints about imba banshees from zergs, protosses and those terrans who don't like banshee and would like to use hellbat drops more. More then that - on non-pro level, terrans won't be able to win against other races, because hellbats are the only attacking unit of terran with a small multitask/micro requirement.
I don't think Blizzard has mentioned removing the Hellbat from the game. So, I don't know where you get the idea that one of the strongest terran weapons is going to be taken away. If it is going to be nerfed - by no means certain - getting a buff elsewhere will depend on the nature of the nerf, and if a corresponding buff is necessary (either for balance reasons and/or for gameplay reasons). I'm not sure about the second part of your post, you seem to believe that P and Z will simply stop defending drops when a good part of SC2 thus far, for both races, has been defending T drop play.
Basically, you don't have an argument here. Other than: I've grown used to strong Hellbat drops. If you take it away, I want something else to take its place. But P and Z players will complain anyway, so please leave the Hellbat in the game. Oh, and I've forgotten that I already had the best drop harass in the game (MMM etc - not to mention the addition of Widow Mines). As to the non-pro Terrans' future "struggles on ladder", you seem to have a poor opinion of your Terran brothers.
Role of hellbats in game
If we don't count drops in the beginning, hellbats are not that good. Their HP/Range make them rather bad choice for late game. Usually you just make 5-6 to tank damage. So if you nerf the possibility of their using in beginning, you will receive 1 more useless unit in game.
Hellbats are stupid unimaginative boring units. There is very little downside to them. For their cost they do far too much. Their only drawback is supposed to be their relatively slow speed and their range. However, they are well able to keep up with MM in Marine/Marauder + Hellbat compositions and their low range is mitigated by their AOE. Once you add their ability to gain mobility through the Medivac you have a unit with no real downside - other than not being able to shoot up at the sky. When watching D1 of the recent OSL, it was obvious that Artosis hates the unit. And I get why he does. The Hellbat is a similar unit to the Marauder. Another tanky unit which does a lot of damage and hard counters another unit type.
Possibility to mech game (especially in TvP)
Even now - TvP meching is way harder then bioing. If you nerf hellbats - it will be almost impossible. Yes, it damages mech terrans, like me - way more, but i am sure it has always to be a possibility to play mech for people who don't want to play bio. So with hellbat nerf, Blizzard will need to give other strong weapon for mech terrans.
Why should I care about mech or meching Terrans? I'm tired of the reeking stench of martyrdom from meching Terrans who never fail to tell all and sundry about their struggle to mech, and how much the tank needs to be buffed. Never mind what it might do to the game or to all match-ups. So far, I have yet to see the attraction of meching play from Terrans. It usually seems to be turtle and then A-move with mech composition. I'm more likely to see positional play (i.e. the style of mech rather than the composition of mech) and the slow strangling advance across the map towards a win from swarmhost based play and tempest based play (if either of these come to fruition that is - but I think the potential is there).
The real issue with mech viability, from the Terran standpoint, is the power of Bio. But, that's another discussion.
What do i propose?
I don't propose to nerf hellbats or not to nerf. All i want to say - Blizzard needs to do everything very ACCURATE and CAREFULL, otherwise you will receive same stuff as it was in WoL, when "small raise of queens and overlord speed" leaded to a total zerg domination until HotS and the retirement of many terran players.
I don't disagree with you here. SC2 is a complex and deep game, and changes need to be light and fair.
For those who can't understand what i mean, i say straight:
1. Every nerf weakens race. 2. Terran is not imba now, so you don't need to nerf it. 3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something. 4. And this buff has to affect mech more then bio, because nerf of hellbats affects mech play more then bio.
1. Not necessarily. Some nerfs may strengthen a race by forcing players to explore other strategies and styles.
2. Yes, Terran is not imbalanced right now but a nerf to the Hellbat is not necessarily a nerf to Terran.
3. Why? And if you do, what do you buff? Personally I have no objection to a light buff to the Banshee as proposed on the balance testing map (although those were a little excessive, I thought). But, even as a Protoss, I do miss the Banshee.
4. I do agree that Bio hardly needs a buff. It is already plenty strong as it is. If a buff is to come, then it does make sense that it be on the mech side. However, it still needs to be established if a buff is required. And then, if so, the nature of that buff. If the Hellbat nerf is a relatively light one then I am not sure that a corresponding buff is at all required.
Hellbats are only powerful in conjunction with a medivac. People complain that the issue with the hellbat is that it is biological, which makes it imbalanced as a mineral only unit, but then don't acknowledge the fact that the reason that it's biological tag is even relevant is because it is supported by a higher tech gas unit, the medivac. If complaints will be made about the cost efficiency of a mineral only unit, then only look at situations where it is truly unsupported.
Without a medivac, hellbats are only good vs poorly positioned "a-move" units i.e. zealots and lings. Any unit that doesn't fall under this category has no issue disposing of a hellbat. If you isolate the hellbat, there are actually few situations where it is grossly cost efficient, for example, obvious situations which are more up to the opponent's control/positioning i.e. attacking with lings or zealots into hellbats especially in a bad position. So, as a mineral only unit, hellbats do not really overperform, unless supported by a gas unit, or in certain situations vs other mineral only units.
I'm not sure if this is completely relevant to this discussion, however if you watch the vod of scarlett, suppy and(i can't remember who else), then you will see scarlett do the following comment in the game of QXC vs some zerg(can't remember either):
"Nobody goes hellbat drops on the korean ladder anymore, as zergs and protoss players got too good at defending them".
On July 04 2013 05:30 qGSkipper wrote: Hellbats are only powerful in conjunction with a medivac. People complain that the issue with the hellbat is that it is biological, which makes it imbalanced as a mineral only unit, but then don't acknowledge the fact that the reason that it's biological tag is even relevant is because it is supported by a higher tech gas unit, the medivac. If complaints will be made about the cost efficiency of a mineral only unit, then only look at situations where it is truly unsupported.
Without a medivac, hellbats are only good vs poorly positioned "a-move" units i.e. zealots and lings. Any unit that doesn't fall under this category has no issue disposing of a hellbat. If you isolate the hellbat, there are actually few situations where it is grossly cost efficient, for example, obvious situations which are more up to the opponent's control/positioning i.e. attacking with lings or zealots into hellbats especially in a bad position. So, as a mineral only unit, hellbats do not really overperform, unless supported by a gas unit, or in certain situations vs other mineral only units.
Faaaaalse.
1. Hellbats SMASH lings and zealots, regardless of if there is a medivac or not.
2. They tank pretty effin will for a 100 mineral unit.
3. it dosn't require upgrades to do it's job(hellbats are a seperate unit from hellion, so the transformer upgrade is a hellion upgrade).
4. a few of them in lategame zvt battles with marines and widowmine, will make the engagement like 10 times harder for zerg, if his army does not consist of 16 broodlords or 20 ultralisk.
All in all, if you saythat hellbats require medivacs to be uselful, you should go an play the actual game, instead of watching Day9 and take every single thing he says for granted.
.. made the boosters on the medivac upgrade based? .. made the boosters on the medivac take up mana -> less healing power? .. made the hellbat a unit that needs to be a hellion first and therefor need a upgrade to change? .. made the hellbat a real mech unit -> can't be healed by medivacs?
Has a zerg i have huge difficulty in beating a real mech army with Hellbats, thors, tanks and vikings!
I find this thread funny because i remember zergs saying the same thing about the infestor all the way up to HotS. (If you nerf this then please buff something else yada yada yada )
Anyways i feel as though i have to disagree with Strelok that hellbats suck mid to late game, ESPECIALLY since watching many streams and tournaments i see 'mech' armies consisting of like 4-5 tanks and like 25-30 hellbats (MLG illusion i think it was vs Incontrol) And that is vs protoss. incontrol's army got destroyed (he only won one because of those dts lol).
I've played against terrans (i'm zerg) back when i did roach hydra who would load up 5 medivacs of hellbats and as his bio army came in to fight his medivacs would come in from the side and drop them, dealing significant damage and tanking a lot of damage as well.
Hellbats also never really lose their ability against speedlings vs zerg at all, obviously they don't do well vs zerg late game tech, (specifically infestor/ultra/bane) but that is because there are no light units for them to kill, But until a zerg reaches that point hellbats are amazing with bio. Even if terran goes mech vs a zerg i see them in game and on streams going tank/hellbat/medivac (AA is obviously thors) with a heavy focus on hellbats as they just take soooo much to kill, especially since they can be healed via the medivacs, letting the tanks deal their damage as well.
And obviously hellbats are used most of the game vs terran as well, ESPECIALLY since they tank so much for the tanks vs bio. Demuslim just played a game where he was essentially saying that he is ahead but since the other terran was going hellbats then he really isn't.
I'm not saying they should be overnerfed like every other nerf that blizzard tends to do, But like what blizzard was thinking of of cutting the damage in half and then boosting it up to where it is now with the blue flame upgrade is exactly what it should be. they would take 3-4 shots to kill drones instead of drop and half a mineral line is dead. Honestly i don't mind where hellbats are mid to late game, its really the early game drops that are retarded and if they got this nerf it would fix exactly that. Mech players could still do the super strong hellbat drops (all be it delayed due to the upgrade needing to be researched) but then they can drop even more as the first wave.
I would say now balance is rather close to be called "good". June statistics shows some advantage for protosses, but still. Some race will always have small advantage. It doesn't mean balance is bad overall. So if you take one of the strongest terran weapons away, you need to give them other weapon. If there won't be a hellbat drop possibility, zergs and protosses won't make fast defences and will do way better eco, so terran win rate will fall drastically (as it was already in WoL when "queens instead of sunkens" eco stuff brought huge zerg domination). So what weapon can substitute hellbat drops? Only a banshee. But if you nerf hellbat and raise banshee what will it change in game? Everyone will stop using hellbat drops and start using banshee. And there will be complaints about imba banshees from zergs, protosses and those terrans who don't like banshee and would like to use hellbat drops more. More then that - on non-pro level, terrans won't be able to win against other races, because hellbats are the only attacking unit of terran with a small multitask/micro requirement.
I don't think Blizzard has mentioned removing the Hellbat from the game. So, I don't know where you get the idea that one of the strongest terran weapons is going to be taken away. If it is going to be nerfed - by no means certain - getting a buff elsewhere will depend on the nature of the nerf, and if a corresponding buff is necessary (either for balance reasons and/or for gameplay reasons). I'm not sure about the second part of your past, you seem to believe that P and Z will simply stop defending drops when a good part of SC2 thus far, for both races, has been defending T drop play.
Basically, you don't have an argument here. Other than: I've grown used to strong Hellbat drops. If you take it away, I want something else to take its place. But P and Z players will complain anyway, so please leave the Hellbat in the game. Oh, and I've forgotten that I already had the best drop harass in the game (MMM etc - not to mention the addition of Widow Mines). As to the non-pro Terrans' future "struggles on ladder", you seem to have a poor opinion of your Terran brothers.
If we don't count drops in the beginning, hellbats are not that good. Their HP/Range make them rather bad choice for late game. Usually you just make 5-6 to tank damage. So if you nerf the possibility of their using in beginning, you will receive 1 more useless unit in game.
Hellbats are stupid unimaginative boring units. There is very little downside to them. For their cost they do far too much. Their only drawback is supposed to be their relatively slow speed and their range. However, they are well able to keep up with MM in Marine/Marauder + Hellbat compositions and their low range is mitigated by their AOE. Once you add their ability to gain mobility through the Medivac you have a unit with no real downside - other than not being able to shoot up at the sky. When watching D1 of the recent OSL, it was obvious that Artosis hates the unit. And I get why he does. The Hellbat is a similar unit to the Marauder. Another tanky unit which does a lot of damage and hard counters another unit type.
Even now - TvP meching is way harder then bioing. If you nerf hellbats - it will be almost impossible. Yes, it damages mech terrans, like me - way more, but i am sure it has always to be a possibility to play mech for people who don't want to play bio. So with hellbat nerf, Blizzard will need to give other strong weapon for mech terrans.
Why should I care about mech or meching Terrans? I'm tired of the reeking stench of martyrdom from meching Terrans who never fail to tell all and sundry about their struggle to mech, and how much the tank needs to be buffed. Never mind what it might do to the game or to all match-ups. So far, I have yet to see the attraction of meching play from Terrans. It usually seems to be turtle and then A-move with mech composition. I'm more likely to see positional play (i.e. the style of mech rather than the composition of mech) and the slow strangling advance across the map towards a win from swarmhost based play and tempest based play (if either of these come to fruition that is - but I think the potential is there).
The real issue with mech viability, from the Terran standpoint, is the power of Bio. But, that's another discussion.
I don't propose to nerf hellbats or not to nerf. All i want to say - Blizzard needs to do everything very ACCURATE and CAREFULL, otherwise you will receive same stuff as it was in WoL, when "small raise of queens and overlord speed" leaded to a total zerg domination until HotS and the retirement of many terran players.
I don't disagree with you here. SC2 is a complex and deep game, and changes need to be light and fair.
For those who can't understand what i mean, i say straight:
1. Every nerf weakens race. 2. Terran is not imba now, so you don't need to nerf it. 3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something. 4. And this buff has to affect mech more then bio, because nerf of hellbats affects mech play more then bio.
1. Not necessarily. Some nerfs may strengthen a race by forcing players to explore other strategies and styles.
2. Yes, Terran is not imbalanced right now but a nerf to the Hellbat is not necessarily a nerf to Terran.
3. Why? And if you do, what do you buff? Personally I have no objection to a light buff to the Banshee as proposed on the balance testing map (although those were a little excessive, I thought). But, even as a Protoss, I do miss the Banshee.
4. I do agree that Bio hardly needs a buff. It is already plenty strong as it is. If a buff is to come, then it does make sense that it be on the mech side. However, it still needs to be established if a buff is required. And then, if so, the nature of that buff. If the Hellbat nerf is a relatively light one then I am not sure that a corresponding buff is at all required. A nerf is required, though.
This has got to be one of the worst posts I have ever read. Not because your ideas are irrational in isolation, but because they are incoherent. You say that we don't know if there needs to be a compensating buff, be it due to a lack of data, or whatever else. But then you say that a nerf is definitely required. Despite the fact that you have not presented any evidence supporting that claim, just your opinion.
So you basically made a rational assertion (we don't know) and then jumped right to borderline insanity (definitely needs a nerf). So you basically gave us your opinion, no evidence, just your opinion, but at least you used alot of words disguising it as something more than that.
And I'm not kidding by the way, jumping from "we don't know what exactly the current balance looks like so we don't know if we need to compensate any nerf with a buff" to "terran/hellbats definitely need a nerf" is almost schizophrenic and self-refuting. It's like someone pushed you off your chair and just wrote the rest of your post.
And "nerfing a terran unit does not mean you are nerfing terran"... did that not sound a little bit silly to you when you typed that out? of course it's a nerf to terran when you nerf one of their most potent units, there is no sugarcoating here, it's not a blessing in disguise either, you nerf Hellbats... you subsequently nerf Terran harrass and something gotta give. You can't have it both ways. Nerf Terran units, but don't nerf Terran. That doesn't compute.
On July 04 2013 05:41 shell wrote: What if Blizzard..
.. made the boosters on the medivac upgrade based? .. made the boosters on the medivac take up mana -> less healing power? .. made the hellbat a unit that needs to be a hellion first and therefor need a upgrade to change? .. made the hellbat a real mech unit -> can't be healed by medivacs?
Has a zerg i have huge difficulty in beating a real mech army with Hellbats, thors, tanks and vikings!
But i'm gold... so what do i know? :d
I dunno about how much you know, but your ideas is the exact same as mine, and i'm masters :p
But i think i can answer these from as terran pov.
1. then terran would get fucked over in the aggression phase in TvP
2. (i have no clue about this one, theres literally no excuse for it not allready being ingame).
3. This would do nothing anyway.
4. because the healing is required to tank chargelots long enough.
On July 03 2013 20:42 Strelok wrote: Many people are complainting about hellbat drop play. Zergs, protosses and some terrans who want to play bio in TvT and struggle hard against mech style (Taeja, Bomber, MKP, Tarson e.t.c). Yes, hellbat drops openers are one of the strongest openers for terran. But why is that so hard to nerf it for Blizzard?
Balance
I would say now balance is rather close to be called "good". June statistics shows some advantage for protosses, but still. Some race will always have small advantage. It doesn't mean balance is bad overall. So if you take one of the strongest terran weapons away, you need to give them other weapon. If there won't be a hellbat drop possibility, zergs and protosses won't make fast defences and will do way better eco, so terran win rate will fall drastically (as it was already in WoL when "queens instead of sunkens" eco stuff brought huge zerg domination). So what weapon can substitute hellbat drops? Only a banshee. But if you nerf hellbat and raise banshee what will it change in game? Everyone will stop using hellbat drops and start using banshee. And there will be complaints about imba banshees from zergs, protosses and those terrans who don't like banshee and would like to use hellbat drops more. More then that - on non-pro level, terrans won't be able to win against other races, because hellbats are the only attacking unit of terran with a small multitask/micro requirement.
Role of hellbats in game
If we don't count drops in the beginning, hellbats are not that good. Their HP/Range make them rather bad choice for late game. Usually you just make 5-6 to tank damage. So if you nerf the possibility of their using in beginning, you will receive 1 more useless unit in game.
Possibility to mech game (especially in TvP)
Even now - TvP meching is way harder then bioing. If you nerf hellbats - it will be almost impossible. Yes, it damages mech terrans, like me - way more, but i am sure it has always to be a possibility to play mech for people who don't want to play bio. So with hellbat nerf, Blizzard will need to give other strong weapon for mech terrans.
What do i propose?
I don't propose to nerf hellbats or not to nerf. All i want to say - Blizzard needs to do everything very ACCURATE and CAREFULL, otherwise you will receive same stuff as it was in WoL, when "small raise of queens and overlord speed" leaded to a total zerg domination until HotS and the retirement of many terran players.
For those who can't understand what i mean, i say straight:
1. Every nerf weakens race. 2. Terran is not imba now, so you don't need to nerf it. 3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something. 4. And this buff has to affect mech more then bio, because nerf of hellbats affects mech play more then bio.
Sorry Strelok, but this is false and ignorant to the max.
Please go watch SPL, GSL, ATC, GSTL or any other tournament featuring more than 1 korean terran, and you will see that the the midgame mech armies in TvT consists of like 5 tanks and 20-30 hellbats.
They soak dmg, they shit on tanks, and it's effectively the next best harass unit in the game (the best being mutalisk).
I would say now balance is rather close to be called "good". June statistics shows some advantage for protosses, but still. Some race will always have small advantage. It doesn't mean balance is bad overall. So if you take one of the strongest terran weapons away, you need to give them other weapon. If there won't be a hellbat drop possibility, zergs and protosses won't make fast defences and will do way better eco, so terran win rate will fall drastically (as it was already in WoL when "queens instead of sunkens" eco stuff brought huge zerg domination). So what weapon can substitute hellbat drops? Only a banshee. But if you nerf hellbat and raise banshee what will it change in game? Everyone will stop using hellbat drops and start using banshee. And there will be complaints about imba banshees from zergs, protosses and those terrans who don't like banshee and would like to use hellbat drops more. More then that - on non-pro level, terrans won't be able to win against other races, because hellbats are the only attacking unit of terran with a small multitask/micro requirement.
I don't think Blizzard has mentioned removing the Hellbat from the game. So, I don't know where you get the idea that one of the strongest terran weapons is going to be taken away. If it is going to be nerfed - by no means certain - getting a buff elsewhere will depend on the nature of the nerf, and if a corresponding buff is necessary (either for balance reasons and/or for gameplay reasons). I'm not sure about the second part of your past, you seem to believe that P and Z will simply stop defending drops when a good part of SC2 thus far, for both races, has been defending T drop play.
Basically, you don't have an argument here. Other than: I've grown used to strong Hellbat drops. If you take it away, I want something else to take its place. But P and Z players will complain anyway, so please leave the Hellbat in the game. Oh, and I've forgotten that I already had the best drop harass in the game (MMM etc - not to mention the addition of Widow Mines). As to the non-pro Terrans' future "struggles on ladder", you seem to have a poor opinion of your Terran brothers.
Role of hellbats in game
If we don't count drops in the beginning, hellbats are not that good. Their HP/Range make them rather bad choice for late game. Usually you just make 5-6 to tank damage. So if you nerf the possibility of their using in beginning, you will receive 1 more useless unit in game.
Hellbats are stupid unimaginative boring units. There is very little downside to them. For their cost they do far too much. Their only drawback is supposed to be their relatively slow speed and their range. However, they are well able to keep up with MM in Marine/Marauder + Hellbat compositions and their low range is mitigated by their AOE. Once you add their ability to gain mobility through the Medivac you have a unit with no real downside - other than not being able to shoot up at the sky. When watching D1 of the recent OSL, it was obvious that Artosis hates the unit. And I get why he does. The Hellbat is a similar unit to the Marauder. Another tanky unit which does a lot of damage and hard counters another unit type.
Possibility to mech game (especially in TvP)
Even now - TvP meching is way harder then bioing. If you nerf hellbats - it will be almost impossible. Yes, it damages mech terrans, like me - way more, but i am sure it has always to be a possibility to play mech for people who don't want to play bio. So with hellbat nerf, Blizzard will need to give other strong weapon for mech terrans.
Why should I care about mech or meching Terrans? I'm tired of the reeking stench of martyrdom from meching Terrans who never fail to tell all and sundry about their struggle to mech, and how much the tank needs to be buffed. Never mind what it might do to the game or to all match-ups. So far, I have yet to see the attraction of meching play from Terrans. It usually seems to be turtle and then A-move with mech composition. I'm more likely to see positional play (i.e. the style of mech rather than the composition of mech) and the slow strangling advance across the map towards a win from swarmhost based play and tempest based play (if either of these come to fruition that is - but I think the potential is there).
The real issue with mech viability, from the Terran standpoint, is the power of Bio. But, that's another discussion.
What do i propose?
I don't propose to nerf hellbats or not to nerf. All i want to say - Blizzard needs to do everything very ACCURATE and CAREFULL, otherwise you will receive same stuff as it was in WoL, when "small raise of queens and overlord speed" leaded to a total zerg domination until HotS and the retirement of many terran players.
I don't disagree with you here. SC2 is a complex and deep game, and changes need to be light and fair.
For those who can't understand what i mean, i say straight:
1. Every nerf weakens race. 2. Terran is not imba now, so you don't need to nerf it. 3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something. 4. And this buff has to affect mech more then bio, because nerf of hellbats affects mech play more then bio.
1. Not necessarily. Some nerfs may strengthen a race by forcing players to explore other strategies and styles.
2. Yes, Terran is not imbalanced right now but a nerf to the Hellbat is not necessarily a nerf to Terran.
3. Why? And if you do, what do you buff? Personally I have no objection to a light buff to the Banshee as proposed on the balance testing map (although those were a little excessive, I thought). But, even as a Protoss, I do miss the Banshee.
4. I do agree that Bio hardly needs a buff. It is already plenty strong as it is. If a buff is to come, then it does make sense that it be on the mech side. However, it still needs to be established if a buff is required. And then, if so, the nature of that buff. If the Hellbat nerf is a relatively light one then I am not sure that a corresponding buff is at all required. A nerf is required, though.
This has got to be one of the worst posts I have ever read. Not because your ideas are irrational in isolation, but because they are incoherent. You say that we don't know if there needs to be a compensating buff, be it due to a lack of data, or whatever else. But then you say that a nerf is definitely required. Despite the fact that you have not presented any evidence supporting that claim, just your opinion.
So you basically made a rational assertion (we don't know) and then jumped right to borderline insanity (definitely needs a nerf). So you basically gave us your opinion, no evidence, just your opinion, but at least you used alot of words disguising it as something more than that.
And I'm not kidding by the way, jumping from "we don't know what exactly the current balance looks like so we don't know if we need to compensate any nerf with a buff" to "terran/hellbats definitely need a nerf" is almost schizophrenic and self-refuting. It's like someone pushed you off your chair and just wrote the rest of your post.
You are right. I put that down to posting while working. I thought about it a little and just removed that last line. I think my dislike for the Hellbat as a unit got the better of me there. It seems to me though that you are fixated on that last line and the rest of what you say neither address Strelok's post, or whatever else I said in the rest of my post (other than my "words").
On July 03 2013 20:42 Strelok wrote: 3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something.
Fix one thing that's broken, then make something else broken too? But why? If they nerf it slightly, like making the dmg vs light normal again, it'll make the game better balanced. Let's be honest, not only in TvT (where even terrans see how OP it is but don't like to admit it for other matchups) but in TvZ/TvP too, hellbats are quite ridiculously cost efficient. For the cheap cost of only minerals, there's no other unit that does so much for so little and is also with so much hp.
Did you skip my post in which I explained why that is not an option? Protoss is already doing better than Terran in Korea. You nerf Terran, without any compensation. What do you expect would happen? Serious question. This is basic logic. I'm sure you can answer it.
I tend to ignore non-official statistics that are pretty ..... bullshit. Except for the WCS, there are no major tournament protoss champions in the past months.
I would say now balance is rather close to be called "good". June statistics shows some advantage for protosses, but still. Some race will always have small advantage. It doesn't mean balance is bad overall. So if you take one of the strongest terran weapons away, you need to give them other weapon. If there won't be a hellbat drop possibility, zergs and protosses won't make fast defences and will do way better eco, so terran win rate will fall drastically (as it was already in WoL when "queens instead of sunkens" eco stuff brought huge zerg domination). So what weapon can substitute hellbat drops? Only a banshee. But if you nerf hellbat and raise banshee what will it change in game? Everyone will stop using hellbat drops and start using banshee. And there will be complaints about imba banshees from zergs, protosses and those terrans who don't like banshee and would like to use hellbat drops more. More then that - on non-pro level, terrans won't be able to win against other races, because hellbats are the only attacking unit of terran with a small multitask/micro requirement.
I don't think Blizzard has mentioned removing the Hellbat from the game. So, I don't know where you get the idea that one of the strongest terran weapons is going to be taken away. If it is going to be nerfed - by no means certain - getting a buff elsewhere will depend on the nature of the nerf, and if a corresponding buff is necessary (either for balance reasons and/or for gameplay reasons). I'm not sure about the second part of your past, you seem to believe that P and Z will simply stop defending drops when a good part of SC2 thus far, for both races, has been defending T drop play.
Basically, you don't have an argument here. Other than: I've grown used to strong Hellbat drops. If you take it away, I want something else to take its place. But P and Z players will complain anyway, so please leave the Hellbat in the game. Oh, and I've forgotten that I already had the best drop harass in the game (MMM etc - not to mention the addition of Widow Mines). As to the non-pro Terrans' future "struggles on ladder", you seem to have a poor opinion of your Terran brothers.
Role of hellbats in game
If we don't count drops in the beginning, hellbats are not that good. Their HP/Range make them rather bad choice for late game. Usually you just make 5-6 to tank damage. So if you nerf the possibility of their using in beginning, you will receive 1 more useless unit in game.
Hellbats are stupid unimaginative boring units. There is very little downside to them. For their cost they do far too much. Their only drawback is supposed to be their relatively slow speed and their range. However, they are well able to keep up with MM in Marine/Marauder + Hellbat compositions and their low range is mitigated by their AOE. Once you add their ability to gain mobility through the Medivac you have a unit with no real downside - other than not being able to shoot up at the sky. When watching D1 of the recent OSL, it was obvious that Artosis hates the unit. And I get why he does. The Hellbat is a similar unit to the Marauder. Another tanky unit which does a lot of damage and hard counters another unit type.
Possibility to mech game (especially in TvP)
Even now - TvP meching is way harder then bioing. If you nerf hellbats - it will be almost impossible. Yes, it damages mech terrans, like me - way more, but i am sure it has always to be a possibility to play mech for people who don't want to play bio. So with hellbat nerf, Blizzard will need to give other strong weapon for mech terrans.
Why should I care about mech or meching Terrans? I'm tired of the reeking stench of martyrdom from meching Terrans who never fail to tell all and sundry about their struggle to mech, and how much the tank needs to be buffed. Never mind what it might do to the game or to all match-ups. So far, I have yet to see the attraction of meching play from Terrans. It usually seems to be turtle and then A-move with mech composition. I'm more likely to see positional play (i.e. the style of mech rather than the composition of mech) and the slow strangling advance across the map towards a win from swarmhost based play and tempest based play (if either of these come to fruition that is - but I think the potential is there).
The real issue with mech viability, from the Terran standpoint, is the power of Bio. But, that's another discussion.
What do i propose?
I don't propose to nerf hellbats or not to nerf. All i want to say - Blizzard needs to do everything very ACCURATE and CAREFULL, otherwise you will receive same stuff as it was in WoL, when "small raise of queens and overlord speed" leaded to a total zerg domination until HotS and the retirement of many terran players.
I don't disagree with you here. SC2 is a complex and deep game, and changes need to be light and fair.
For those who can't understand what i mean, i say straight:
1. Every nerf weakens race. 2. Terran is not imba now, so you don't need to nerf it. 3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something. 4. And this buff has to affect mech more then bio, because nerf of hellbats affects mech play more then bio.
1. Not necessarily. Some nerfs may strengthen a race by forcing players to explore other strategies and styles.
2. Yes, Terran is not imbalanced right now but a nerf to the Hellbat is not necessarily a nerf to Terran.
3. Why? And if you do, what do you buff? Personally I have no objection to a light buff to the Banshee as proposed on the balance testing map (although those were a little excessive, I thought). But, even as a Protoss, I do miss the Banshee.
4. I do agree that Bio hardly needs a buff. It is already plenty strong as it is. If a buff is to come, then it does make sense that it be on the mech side. However, it still needs to be established if a buff is required. And then, if so, the nature of that buff. If the Hellbat nerf is a relatively light one then I am not sure that a corresponding buff is at all required. A nerf is required, though.
This has got to be one of the worst posts I have ever read. Not because your ideas are irrational in isolation, but because they are incoherent. You say that we don't know if there needs to be a compensating buff, be it due to a lack of data, or whatever else. But then you say that a nerf is definitely required. Despite the fact that you have not presented any evidence supporting that claim, just your opinion.
So you basically made a rational assertion (we don't know) and then jumped right to borderline insanity (definitely needs a nerf). So you basically gave us your opinion, no evidence, just your opinion, but at least you used alot of words disguising it as something more than that.
And I'm not kidding by the way, jumping from "we don't know what exactly the current balance looks like so we don't know if we need to compensate any nerf with a buff" to "terran/hellbats definitely need a nerf" is almost schizophrenic and self-refuting. It's like someone pushed you off your chair and just wrote the rest of your post.
You are right. I put that down to posting while working. I thought about it a little and just removed that last line. I think my dislike for the Hellbat as a unit got the better of me there. It seems to me though that you are fixated on that last line and the rest of what you say neither address Strelok's post, or whatever else I said in the rest of my post (other than my "words").
The reason I was so fixated on that last line was because it turned a rational post into something completely incoherent. I'm glad you fixed it though.
Just to illustrate my point though.
I think nerfing the hellbat (which I agree with, I despise hellbats) requires a counter-buff to some other Terran unit.
Let's just assume, for the sake of argument, that the game is very well balanced right now (statistics, however insignificant they might seem back up this assumption).
After nerfing any unit for any race, we would have to compensate for that nerf in order to reach this equilibrium again. I pointed this out already, but this is basic logic 101.
On July 03 2013 20:42 Strelok wrote: 3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something.
Fix one thing that's broken, then make something else broken too? But why? If they nerf it slightly, like making the dmg vs light normal again, it'll make the game better balanced. Let's be honest, not only in TvT (where even terrans see how OP it is but don't like to admit it for other matchups) but in TvZ/TvP too, hellbats are quite ridiculously cost efficient. For the cheap cost of only minerals, there's no other unit that does so much for so little and is also with so much hp.
Did you skip my post in which I explained why that is not an option? Protoss is already doing better than Terran in Korea. You nerf Terran, without any compensation. What do you expect would happen? Serious question. This is basic logic. I'm sure you can answer it.
I tend to ignore non-official statistics that are pretty ..... bullshit. Except for the WCS, there are no major tournament protoss champions in the past months.
Stardust won Dreamhack. And in Premier Tournaments Protoss had more 2nd place finishers than Terran. 3 Protoss, 2 Terran.
Now just looking at Finalists in HotS, we had 7 Terrans, 8 Zergs, 5 Protosses. There seems to be a nice distribution in top place finishers. And much of it actually comes down to individual effort. That's why we use win rates and not tournament winners or finalists to look at balance, because it so often hinges on just 1 or 2 games that turn a tournament winner into a second place finisher, or a finalist into a semi-finalist. etc..
On July 04 2013 01:10 aka_star wrote: Blizzard has tried to be careful by gathering feedback from everyone, what more 'caution' do you want them to do?, perhaps sit around a table for another year cautiously planning a single change while the game continues in this manner?.
The complaints are that the risk/reward makes hell bat drops a stable choice and that's only going to stagnate Terran over time, the games for spectators become stales and everyone ends up cheering for the underdog which we saw in WoL when Z were getting slaughtered by everything and the Nerf fell on T patch after patch.
Blizzard doesnt need "more caution" ... they need to get rid of "their vision of the game" which includes ridiculously dumb mottos such as ...
Siege Tank based mech is boring and players like bio more, right?
Mobility is cool, so everyone wants to play that way, right?
Lets not be hasty about doing anything against the deathball because "players want to play that way", right?
More deaths and a faster game mean the game is more exciting and thus better, right?
That isnt the whole list though, but the gist of it is that they are not interested in developing a free and creative game but only one which conforms to their vision of it. Kinda like a game with only quick time events to "play through" and no real meaningful alternatives.
While I do agree with some of your points, mainly them being very stubborn, and only designing the game to fit their own vision, the problem really is right now that Tank based mech is in fact boring. The problem however, has been that they refused to go in depth about why tank based mech is boring and how they can fix it.
I dabbled in mech for about 1 month and found it to be very boring to play, especially compared to marine tank or pure bio, the problem comes from the fact that, once tanks reach a critical mass, they are incredibly powerful but, more damning, they are still easy to control. It feels like is very, very, very hard to distinguish a good mech player from an excellent one in regards just to army control, the gist of it is just being able to identify good positions, where to fight and siege and then move and siege there.
Why does SC2 mech feels so easy and so powerful, well to be its because of a couple of key factors intristicly tied to design, one of them is the ease of controlling army groups via unlimited control groups, the other is smart fire.
Unfortunately I'll have to make a small reference to BW here, and I hope people don't turn this into a BW vs SC2 discussion and just take it for what it is. Basically in BW it felt like even if terran reached a critical mass of tanks, it never felt overpowering, because it was still very difficult to control them, part of it being limited control groups and poor pathing making it so you had to either focus your efforts on achieving the same levels of concentrated fire, or being very meticulous on how you moved your tanks.
The other big problem was overkill. In BW if a zealot was dropped in a group of 20 tanks, all would shoot to kill it, in SC2, only the exact number of tanks needed to kill the zealot will shoot unless specifically commanded to do so. This feels like it, again removes a large amount of skill required to play mech because, you won't go super in depth on how you spread your tanks, sometimes you can just move across the map, just find a good nook to siege behind and siege all tanks in a clump, in BW this would have been very inefficient because of the possibility of all tanks overkilling on just a single target as well as the risk of getting zealot bombed or having mines dragged towards them.
The act of sending out units to bait tank fire is, ironically, present in TvZ MU when playing bio mine, there is a intricate little dance that goes on, the terran is pushing but at the same time must be mindful of his position and carefully place his mines along the way, the zerg is trying to snipe mines or engage you before you are ready. The zerg is trying to bait mine shots with small groups of units, the terran is trying to protect them and advance forward or force an engagement on his terms.
I think this level of back and forth play and extra care for positioning is sorely lacking from SC2 mech and, as long as it remains the way it is, I'll never support it. Funny enough in TvZ there is an artificial way to force that kind of old BW esque mechanic, its in the form of blinding cloud, it makes the terran player have to think harder about the position of his tanks and it makes controlling and moving them a lot more interesting. However there is no such thing in TvT and TvP, often times with mech also gaining air control and having vikings its very hard to do drops on to tanks and blow them up, and even if you do it the damage won't always be very high because of the lack of overkill.
Initially I was a big follower of the church of Artosis, and his talking about mech and how it should be viable, I want it to be viable as well, but I want the BW mech to be viable, not the SC2 mech.
I disagree with people saying that mech is harder to play than bio, that is only really true in TvZ, where positioning is a lot more meaningful, in TvT and TvP it feels like the hard part is only surviving and turtling for the first couple of minutes until you get a strong army, after which a lot of the excitement is gone, the ball will always be on the bio player to do damage after that point.
I'll even go so far as to say that SC2 mech play is very deathballish and akin to BL Infestor level of boredom involved at least compared to its BW counterpart, and, making it even more viable would be a terrible, terrible mistake on the level of the queen buff.
I've stayed a bit off topic now, after all this whole discussion was actually regarding hellbat drop play. In my opinion it the problem doesn't seem to be that it is too powerful to the point that it can't be defended, but rather so strong that it forces reactions so extreme to counter it, that it limits builds and diversity. This is more true in TvT then in TvZ and in TvP but even so I feel this to be reason enough to nerf them in the way Blizzard proposed.
Already we are kind of starting to see the early signs of them becoming even more dominant in TvZ and TvP in certain all-in or timing push based builds, and there is a real risk those builds could become strong enough to limit choke the metagame further.
The other side of the coin is that, price for price, hellbats are incredibly efficient, they have nearly as much HP as a zealot or roach, are more tanky because of healing from medivacs and deal more damage then roaches or zealots, and they do it in a aoe. There is no question in my mind, and has never been ever since I saw its inception, that the hellbat is a broken unit because of its strength and versatility, the only thing that keeps it from being flat out overpowered is its inability to shoot air, but for a measly 100 minerals it does far, far too much.
For the better of SC2 as a whole I think Hellbats should be nerfed, for their price they shouldn't be as tanky as they are or deal as much damage as they can deal, and their strength is gutting strategical diversity in primarily TvT and is now starting to seep into other MUs. Obviously this should be done with care, nerfing to the extend you stop seeing hellbat drops and mech still removes strategic options and makes the game a bit poorer, but the other extreme we have now, where we get too many hellbat drops, isn't much better either.
For that reason I believe a nerf to their HP might be more appropriate then their damage, say reducing it to 110 or just 100. That way they can still be dropped early, but its a lot easier to deal with it, and its a bit easier to punish and prepare for if you scout for it. It probably would be a good idea to remove their bio tag as well so they can still tank in TvP against archons.
I would say now balance is rather close to be called "good". June statistics shows some advantage for protosses, but still. Some race will always have small advantage. It doesn't mean balance is bad overall. So if you take one of the strongest terran weapons away, you need to give them other weapon. If there won't be a hellbat drop possibility, zergs and protosses won't make fast defences and will do way better eco, so terran win rate will fall drastically (as it was already in WoL when "queens instead of sunkens" eco stuff brought huge zerg domination). So what weapon can substitute hellbat drops? Only a banshee. But if you nerf hellbat and raise banshee what will it change in game? Everyone will stop using hellbat drops and start using banshee. And there will be complaints about imba banshees from zergs, protosses and those terrans who don't like banshee and would like to use hellbat drops more. More then that - on non-pro level, terrans won't be able to win against other races, because hellbats are the only attacking unit of terran with a small multitask/micro requirement.
I don't think Blizzard has mentioned removing the Hellbat from the game. So, I don't know where you get the idea that one of the strongest terran weapons is going to be taken away. If it is going to be nerfed - by no means certain - getting a buff elsewhere will depend on the nature of the nerf, and if a corresponding buff is necessary (either for balance reasons and/or for gameplay reasons). I'm not sure about the second part of your past, you seem to believe that P and Z will simply stop defending drops when a good part of SC2 thus far, for both races, has been defending T drop play.
Basically, you don't have an argument here. Other than: I've grown used to strong Hellbat drops. If you take it away, I want something else to take its place. But P and Z players will complain anyway, so please leave the Hellbat in the game. Oh, and I've forgotten that I already had the best drop harass in the game (MMM etc - not to mention the addition of Widow Mines). As to the non-pro Terrans' future "struggles on ladder", you seem to have a poor opinion of your Terran brothers.
Role of hellbats in game
If we don't count drops in the beginning, hellbats are not that good. Their HP/Range make them rather bad choice for late game. Usually you just make 5-6 to tank damage. So if you nerf the possibility of their using in beginning, you will receive 1 more useless unit in game.
Hellbats are stupid unimaginative boring units. There is very little downside to them. For their cost they do far too much. Their only drawback is supposed to be their relatively slow speed and their range. However, they are well able to keep up with MM in Marine/Marauder + Hellbat compositions and their low range is mitigated by their AOE. Once you add their ability to gain mobility through the Medivac you have a unit with no real downside - other than not being able to shoot up at the sky. When watching D1 of the recent OSL, it was obvious that Artosis hates the unit. And I get why he does. The Hellbat is a similar unit to the Marauder. Another tanky unit which does a lot of damage and hard counters another unit type.
Possibility to mech game (especially in TvP)
Even now - TvP meching is way harder then bioing. If you nerf hellbats - it will be almost impossible. Yes, it damages mech terrans, like me - way more, but i am sure it has always to be a possibility to play mech for people who don't want to play bio. So with hellbat nerf, Blizzard will need to give other strong weapon for mech terrans.
Why should I care about mech or meching Terrans? I'm tired of the reeking stench of martyrdom from meching Terrans who never fail to tell all and sundry about their struggle to mech, and how much the tank needs to be buffed. Never mind what it might do to the game or to all match-ups. So far, I have yet to see the attraction of meching play from Terrans. It usually seems to be turtle and then A-move with mech composition. I'm more likely to see positional play (i.e. the style of mech rather than the composition of mech) and the slow strangling advance across the map towards a win from swarmhost based play and tempest based play (if either of these come to fruition that is - but I think the potential is there).
The real issue with mech viability, from the Terran standpoint, is the power of Bio. But, that's another discussion.
What do i propose?
I don't propose to nerf hellbats or not to nerf. All i want to say - Blizzard needs to do everything very ACCURATE and CAREFULL, otherwise you will receive same stuff as it was in WoL, when "small raise of queens and overlord speed" leaded to a total zerg domination until HotS and the retirement of many terran players.
I don't disagree with you here. SC2 is a complex and deep game, and changes need to be light and fair.
For those who can't understand what i mean, i say straight:
1. Every nerf weakens race. 2. Terran is not imba now, so you don't need to nerf it. 3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something. 4. And this buff has to affect mech more then bio, because nerf of hellbats affects mech play more then bio.
1. Not necessarily. Some nerfs may strengthen a race by forcing players to explore other strategies and styles.
2. Yes, Terran is not imbalanced right now but a nerf to the Hellbat is not necessarily a nerf to Terran.
3. Why? And if you do, what do you buff? Personally I have no objection to a light buff to the Banshee as proposed on the balance testing map (although those were a little excessive, I thought). But, even as a Protoss, I do miss the Banshee.
4. I do agree that Bio hardly needs a buff. It is already plenty strong as it is. If a buff is to come, then it does make sense that it be on the mech side. However, it still needs to be established if a buff is required. And then, if so, the nature of that buff. If the Hellbat nerf is a relatively light one then I am not sure that a corresponding buff is at all required. A nerf is required, though.
This has got to be one of the worst posts I have ever read. Not because your ideas are irrational in isolation, but because they are incoherent. You say that we don't know if there needs to be a compensating buff, be it due to a lack of data, or whatever else. But then you say that a nerf is definitely required. Despite the fact that you have not presented any evidence supporting that claim, just your opinion.
So you basically made a rational assertion (we don't know) and then jumped right to borderline insanity (definitely needs a nerf). So you basically gave us your opinion, no evidence, just your opinion, but at least you used alot of words disguising it as something more than that.
And I'm not kidding by the way, jumping from "we don't know what exactly the current balance looks like so we don't know if we need to compensate any nerf with a buff" to "terran/hellbats definitely need a nerf" is almost schizophrenic and self-refuting. It's like someone pushed you off your chair and just wrote the rest of your post.
You are right. I put that down to posting while working. I thought about it a little and just removed that last line. I think my dislike for the Hellbat as a unit got the better of me there. It seems to me though that you are fixated on that last line and the rest of what you say neither address Strelok's post, or whatever else I said in the rest of my post (other than my "words").
The reason I was so fixated on that last line was because it turned a rational post into something completely incoherent. I'm glad you fixed it though.
Just to illustrate my point though.
I think nerfing the hellbat (which I agree with, I despise hellbats) requires a counter-buff to some other Terran unit.
Let's just assume, for the sake of argument, that the game is very well balanced right now (statistics, however insignificant they might seem back up this assumption).
After nerfing any unit for any race, we would have to compensate for that nerf in order to reach this equilibrium again. I pointed this out already, but this is basic logic 101.
I will step in and say that in a linear system, you would be correct, but SC is very dynamic and nonlinear, and each strategy is its own species. If one species dies out, that doesn't necessarily make the other species better or worse in an absolute sense, especially if they're exclusive in role, investment, or synergy. The decreased variability of strategy is a possible argument, but Protoss is a good example of how you can keep 50/50 winrate with less variation. Ideally the power of every single species in the game should wax and wane depending on the climate, but they do not, because the strength of some units are unavoidable, and weaknesses of others are inexploitable. Personally, my design goal is the greatest species diversity, but that already puts me at odds with Blizzard's philosophy, that some species aren't meant to see the light, so long as the "action" is maintained.
I would say now balance is rather close to be called "good". June statistics shows some advantage for protosses, but still. Some race will always have small advantage. It doesn't mean balance is bad overall. So if you take one of the strongest terran weapons away, you need to give them other weapon. If there won't be a hellbat drop possibility, zergs and protosses won't make fast defences and will do way better eco, so terran win rate will fall drastically (as it was already in WoL when "queens instead of sunkens" eco stuff brought huge zerg domination). So what weapon can substitute hellbat drops? Only a banshee. But if you nerf hellbat and raise banshee what will it change in game? Everyone will stop using hellbat drops and start using banshee. And there will be complaints about imba banshees from zergs, protosses and those terrans who don't like banshee and would like to use hellbat drops more. More then that - on non-pro level, terrans won't be able to win against other races, because hellbats are the only attacking unit of terran with a small multitask/micro requirement.
I don't think Blizzard has mentioned removing the Hellbat from the game. So, I don't know where you get the idea that one of the strongest terran weapons is going to be taken away. If it is going to be nerfed - by no means certain - getting a buff elsewhere will depend on the nature of the nerf, and if a corresponding buff is necessary (either for balance reasons and/or for gameplay reasons). I'm not sure about the second part of your past, you seem to believe that P and Z will simply stop defending drops when a good part of SC2 thus far, for both races, has been defending T drop play.
Basically, you don't have an argument here. Other than: I've grown used to strong Hellbat drops. If you take it away, I want something else to take its place. But P and Z players will complain anyway, so please leave the Hellbat in the game. Oh, and I've forgotten that I already had the best drop harass in the game (MMM etc - not to mention the addition of Widow Mines). As to the non-pro Terrans' future "struggles on ladder", you seem to have a poor opinion of your Terran brothers.
Role of hellbats in game
If we don't count drops in the beginning, hellbats are not that good. Their HP/Range make them rather bad choice for late game. Usually you just make 5-6 to tank damage. So if you nerf the possibility of their using in beginning, you will receive 1 more useless unit in game.
Hellbats are stupid unimaginative boring units. There is very little downside to them. For their cost they do far too much. Their only drawback is supposed to be their relatively slow speed and their range. However, they are well able to keep up with MM in Marine/Marauder + Hellbat compositions and their low range is mitigated by their AOE. Once you add their ability to gain mobility through the Medivac you have a unit with no real downside - other than not being able to shoot up at the sky. When watching D1 of the recent OSL, it was obvious that Artosis hates the unit. And I get why he does. The Hellbat is a similar unit to the Marauder. Another tanky unit which does a lot of damage and hard counters another unit type.
Possibility to mech game (especially in TvP)
Even now - TvP meching is way harder then bioing. If you nerf hellbats - it will be almost impossible. Yes, it damages mech terrans, like me - way more, but i am sure it has always to be a possibility to play mech for people who don't want to play bio. So with hellbat nerf, Blizzard will need to give other strong weapon for mech terrans.
Why should I care about mech or meching Terrans? I'm tired of the reeking stench of martyrdom from meching Terrans who never fail to tell all and sundry about their struggle to mech, and how much the tank needs to be buffed. Never mind what it might do to the game or to all match-ups. So far, I have yet to see the attraction of meching play from Terrans. It usually seems to be turtle and then A-move with mech composition. I'm more likely to see positional play (i.e. the style of mech rather than the composition of mech) and the slow strangling advance across the map towards a win from swarmhost based play and tempest based play (if either of these come to fruition that is - but I think the potential is there).
The real issue with mech viability, from the Terran standpoint, is the power of Bio. But, that's another discussion.
What do i propose?
I don't propose to nerf hellbats or not to nerf. All i want to say - Blizzard needs to do everything very ACCURATE and CAREFULL, otherwise you will receive same stuff as it was in WoL, when "small raise of queens and overlord speed" leaded to a total zerg domination until HotS and the retirement of many terran players.
I don't disagree with you here. SC2 is a complex and deep game, and changes need to be light and fair.
For those who can't understand what i mean, i say straight:
1. Every nerf weakens race. 2. Terran is not imba now, so you don't need to nerf it. 3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something. 4. And this buff has to affect mech more then bio, because nerf of hellbats affects mech play more then bio.
1. Not necessarily. Some nerfs may strengthen a race by forcing players to explore other strategies and styles.
2. Yes, Terran is not imbalanced right now but a nerf to the Hellbat is not necessarily a nerf to Terran.
3. Why? And if you do, what do you buff? Personally I have no objection to a light buff to the Banshee as proposed on the balance testing map (although those were a little excessive, I thought). But, even as a Protoss, I do miss the Banshee.
4. I do agree that Bio hardly needs a buff. It is already plenty strong as it is. If a buff is to come, then it does make sense that it be on the mech side. However, it still needs to be established if a buff is required. And then, if so, the nature of that buff. If the Hellbat nerf is a relatively light one then I am not sure that a corresponding buff is at all required. A nerf is required, though.
This has got to be one of the worst posts I have ever read. Not because your ideas are irrational in isolation, but because they are incoherent. You say that we don't know if there needs to be a compensating buff, be it due to a lack of data, or whatever else. But then you say that a nerf is definitely required. Despite the fact that you have not presented any evidence supporting that claim, just your opinion.
So you basically made a rational assertion (we don't know) and then jumped right to borderline insanity (definitely needs a nerf). So you basically gave us your opinion, no evidence, just your opinion, but at least you used alot of words disguising it as something more than that.
And I'm not kidding by the way, jumping from "we don't know what exactly the current balance looks like so we don't know if we need to compensate any nerf with a buff" to "terran/hellbats definitely need a nerf" is almost schizophrenic and self-refuting. It's like someone pushed you off your chair and just wrote the rest of your post.
You are right. I put that down to posting while working. I thought about it a little and just removed that last line. I think my dislike for the Hellbat as a unit got the better of me there. It seems to me though that you are fixated on that last line and the rest of what you say neither address Strelok's post, or whatever else I said in the rest of my post (other than my "words").
The reason I was so fixated on that last line was because it turned a rational post into something completely incoherent. I'm glad you fixed it though.
Just to illustrate my point though.
I think nerfing the hellbat (which I agree with, I despise hellbats) requires a counter-buff to some other Terran unit.
Let's just assume, for the sake of argument, that the game is very well balanced right now (statistics, however insignificant they might seem back up this assumption).
After nerfing any unit for any race, we would have to compensate for that nerf in order to reach this equilibrium again. I pointed this out already, but this is basic logic 101.
Fair enough. Blizzard seems to think the same if Banshee buffs are any indication. Like I said, even while I loathe Banshees (I play Protoss after all) I do miss Banshee play. They seem to have vanished from the game (other than the occassional sighting in TvT). I disagree that a buff is necessarily required though. If a race is strong enough, other existing tools will be used and equilibrium will be reached again. I believe Terran is that strong. But, maybe I'm a little biased. That said, if the nerf is a large one - which I would oppose - then a buff would certainly be required. Anything else would be unfair.
I really agree with your post about mech if a nerf is given to hellbats. However, they absolutely need to get rid of the bio tag from hellbats. This will make hellbat drops not as effective as they are right now but won't completely destroy the usability of the unit in any stage of the game.
In terms of giving a buff to equal out the nerf - how about doing something with Transformation servos? Getting rid of it completely? I don't play terran enough to know what effect this will have in the long term for the meta but it's the best idea I have.
On July 04 2013 05:01 ejozl wrote: First complaint: Widow Mine drops, too hard to deal with. Second complaint: Can't get third because of Bio drops. Third complaint: Hellbat drops. It's the Medivac guys, it's insane, look at it... We even saw Lucifron doing a Thor drop for christ sake, wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing Vikings load up in Medivacs to get places faster. There needs to be an energy cost on the afterburner, so you don't just macro it all the time. Hellbats as units are fine, they need to be good if they're to compete with Marines which has been the best mineral dump for Terrans since forever. You all also seem to forget that metagame changes, knew stuff gets discovered, when it isn't going too well for the race. Terran has enough tools to deal with a nerf to the hellbat drop. Sorry for ranting, but I'd also like to suggest that it would be good to reduce the cargo size of Hellbats back to what it was, if there were to be a nerf to the very imbalanced Medivac!
I completely agree that there should be an ignite afterburner energy cost on Medivac. This would make Caduceus Reactor upgrade usable too in every match up Another thing is Widow Mine vs Zerg is a bit OP too ;( It has completely replaced Bio Tank composition in TvZ ;((( Increasing mine cost by 25/25 should work or decrasing splash damage by 25% maybe?
And reducing Cloak cost by 50/50 would make it solid too, not like Blizzard proposed previously by 100/100. Than it would also make sense to get Cauceus Reactor and transition into Bio. Would also make dropping a lot more skill based as well ''do i use Ignite Afterburner when I get in? do i switch off healing to save up energy to get out?''
On July 04 2013 05:41 shell wrote: What if Blizzard..
.. made the boosters on the medivac upgrade based? .. made the boosters on the medivac take up mana -> less healing power? .. made the hellbat a unit that needs to be a hellion first and therefor need a upgrade to change? .. made the hellbat a real mech unit -> can't be healed by medivacs?
Has a zerg i have huge difficulty in beating a real mech army with Hellbats, thors, tanks and vikings!
But i'm gold... so what do i know? :d
I dunno about how much you know, but your ideas is the exact same as mine, and i'm masters :p
But i think i can answer these from as terran pov.
1. then terran would get fucked over in the aggression phase in TvP
2. (i have no clue about this one, theres literally no excuse for it not allready being ingame).
3. This would do nothing anyway.
4. because the healing is required to tank chargelots long enough.
My game knowledge is much better then what i play but i'm gold.. ;D and yes this game is pretty hard to balance...
and i also think mines are way harder to deal with and less forgiving then hellbats
strelok you are decent player win me most of time, but hellbats being what they are and only 100 minerals is a complete and utter joke. Anyone who says they are "fine" or do not need some form of nerf is a complete idiot.
Huge respect to you Strelok for putting in this amount of effort about a rather touchy topic. Too bad people are just gonna get mad and shit on you.
I am of the opinion that hellbats are a generally fine and fair unit until they get put in medivacs then they become absurd. It's very easy to make them and get at least enough economic damage through lost mining time and worker death to pay off the investment. But otherwise the hellbat is probably fine, does loads of damage but is slow and has shit range so tends to get murdered once the opponent has enough firepower.
I do think that hellbat drops dominate the early to mid part of TvT a bit too much. The anti air options available are kind of poor at preventing the medivac from getting in and once in it almost always breaks even at the very least. I don't mind playing it right now but it does feel a bit silly sometimes.
Oh and a bio-hellbat transition after opening hellbats drop might be viable. I've been playing it a fair bit to some reasonable results. Idk if you can win a GSL with it but, so I guess we'll have to see if KR terrans even pick it up but it's got some charm to it.
I would argue that hellbats arent the issue so much as the medivac speed boost is. Hellbats can only do real damage when they get into your base and the reason that they are almost always successful in doing that is the damn medivac speed boost. lk turret rings dont stop hellcat drops, nor does immediatly moving your workers save you from losing 20 scvs because the damn medivacs just speed right over the moving worker clump and drop their shit, boom your in trouble. Idk about balance but I know that tvt sucks. hellcat drops are not a big investment but can cripple an opponent (not even that much skill required to do it) so theres not much reason not to do them --> stupid matchup. imo.
I think hellbat drop TvZ is not a problem. It's something that is relatively simple to scout and there are builds that can get an advantage against it when you have scouted it. I do have a problem with hellbats in their power for 2 or 3 base timing builds, though. They feel too effective against roaches and banelings with all their health.
On July 04 2013 07:16 oOOoOphidian wrote: I think hellbat drop TvZ is not a problem. It's something that is relatively simple to scout and there are builds that can get an advantage against it when you have scouted it. I do have a problem with hellbats in their power for 2 or 3 base timing builds, though. They feel too effective against roaches and banelings with all their health.
And Roach Baneling busts aren't effective, considering it's not even an all in, but can still take out players like innovation by A-moving? Hellbat marauder is the only decent 2 base timing push a Terran can do, that doesn't die straight up to a few banelings and roachs.
The issue isn't even about hellbat drops in TvZ and TvP, any non-biased player can see hellbats are fine in those matchups. The only issue is that hellbats drops are too strong in TvT.
20 + hellbats with tanks are actually pretty good Strelok. The blueflame hellbat fix sounds as the most appropiate to me, I dont even think that those drop will die out in TvZ with one hit more as a harass unit (It will still kill drones pretty fast when they line up ). But it will make look TvT less stupid. Plus it adds a gas cost to a tech unit, yes the hellbat is actually a slow moving TECH unit. Which means that you gotta pay some gas and invest some tech time when you want that tech unit which sounds reasonable to me.
Hellbats aren't really a problem anyway. In TvT fast Hellvacs can spiral out of control if you try something on your own. But you can easily defend the drops with your army and then faceroll over the opposing Terran. If you move out though Hellvacs can make your push an do or die since your workers melt, while you are on the way.
Since Terran is having small issues with Air harassment overall if they move out it would be interesting to see how 75 Mineral Turrets work. (Or scrabable so Mech can take their static air defense with them muahaha)
But I don't really mind if they delay Hellbats with an upgrade. But it would be rather nice if they make Hellion upgrades not as expensive, just like the Banshee cloak. Atleast it would give Terran a reason to get a techlab. And I agree that Terran would need a compensation if they make the hellbat any worse.
At the end it is the same as WoL beginning with Mech. People run head on without any preparation into slow units with their speedy ones and wonder why they die horribly. And Blizzard even reacts to that. So that we end up with Storm that only weakens low hp units.
I really dont like the proposed hellbat nerf. Hellbats drops are only OP in TvT. Both zerg and toss have very easy to defend against them. And this is basicually what david kim said, that they are op in tvt and not in any other matchup.
Going through with this change will hurt TvP and TvZ matchups, it will lead to both toss and especially zerg being able to play way greedier, leading to better ecos for them. Hellbats drops is pretty much the only aggression a mech terran can do early game, so removing this will make your opponent supersafe, and they will know it and just play extremely greedy.
So if I read this OP correctly, it in fact states (simply more verbose) that a nerf weakens a race, and that if you were to nerf (or weaken) a race that is balanced (according to win rate statistics), then without a buff, said race would become underpowered. ... .. I'm sorry, what is the point of this thread? It seems to be to state the obvious, or to define the term nerf and give examples of the use of the word.
To be honest, Terrans aren't hellbat dropping Zergs and Protoss' every game, and I doubt the win rate of terrans who used early hellbat drops vs. games where they didn't aren't dissimilar, though I obviously can't say for sure without the data (it would be interesting to know if it's out there somewhere). If those win rates are in fact similar, a nerf would not have much of an effect on the most common marine/marauder/mine/medivac builds.
Then, if it's only a problem in TvT, then it's only an aesthetic problem of the match up, since you obviously can't have a balance issue there. Therefore you wouldn't want to buff something else that would have an effect on the other match ups. Blizzard could resort to what they did with spore crawlers and give turrets +damage to medivacs or some other ridiculous buff.
On July 04 2013 08:26 Sephiren wrote: So if I read this OP correctly, it in fact states (simply more verbose) that a nerf weakens a race, and that if you were to nerf (or weaken) a race that is balanced (according to win rate statistics), then without a buff, said race would become underpowered. ... .. I'm sorry, what is the point of this thread? It seems to be to state the obvious, or to define the term nerf and give examples of the use of the word.
To be honest, Terrans aren't hellbat dropping Zergs and Protoss' every game, and I doubt the win rate of terrans who used early hellbat drops vs. games where they didn't aren't dissimilar, though I obviously can't say for sure without the data (it would be interesting to know if it's out there somewhere). If those win rates are in fact similar, a nerf would not have much of an effect on the most common marine/marauder/mine/medivac builds.
Then, if it's only a problem in TvT, then it's only an aesthetic problem of the match up, since you obviously can't have a balance issue there. Therefore you wouldn't want to buff something else that would have an effect on the other match ups. Blizzard could resort to what they did with spore crawlers and give turrets +damage to medivacs or some other ridiculous buff.
Blizzard has this data and David Kim has already made a statement to the Hellbat issue, why are you thinking he made that post?
I'd just point out the proposed nerf Blizzard put out the other day addresses some of your concern - by adding the blue flame research cost to the bonus to light, the hellbat is the same unit late-game, and drops are still viable just much SLOWER.
The banshee buff by reducing research and speed cost is another decent approach, because banshees wont become core combat units, just way more viable as harass.
I don't agree that hellbats take good micro. They are slow and short-ranged. Banshees require far better micro.
the problem has always been execution + risk vs Reward.
Hellbat drops are easy to do them, theres shit all risk and theres an ENORMOUS reward. they need to make it so they atleast dont 2 shot workers to give that little bit more time to defend against them.
Making hellbats armored may be a nice solution. In TvT, holding off hellbat drops with bio isn't too difficult, but it's the composition of hellbat tank that is almost impossible to deal with as bio. If armored, marauders could deal with hellbats better. Hellbat drops don't seem to be as big of an issue in TvP, but this change would make hellbats easier to deal with using stalkers. The only potential problem is in ZvT banelings won't deal as cleanly with hellbats. If this isn't too big of a deal I feel this change could do well. There may be other negative implications of this change that I overlooked.
Mining time lost from hellbats: You probably have 16 SCV's on minerals in your main by the time hellbats arrive. For every second that you pull all 16 away from mining, you are losing 10.66...7 minerals. So if you lose 0 SCV's and are forced to pull for 10 seconds, you have lost more than 106 minerals (I say more than because it takes time to re-establish mineral pairing). So if you get the medivac away, kill 2 SCV's and have them pull workers you have made a cost efficient trade (if not gained a lead) even with losing both hellbats.
Anybody care to see how often all 16 workers are pulled and for how long in an average game?
As a terran player I think that the proposed nerf to hellbats is a good idea. ATM they are becoming almost as important as Marines whether you are going bio/mech in every match up. They are too powerful early on in particular. I'd prefer for them to be a bigger investment, while still scaling up as powerful units with the blue flame. It would make mech v bio in TvT not a free win for the mech player, as they would actually be weak early on. Its actually a joke how bad bio is in TvT right now. A joke which brings tears to my eyes.
I don't have a problem with the unit in principle, but the fact is it just does too much damage without upgrades.
On July 04 2013 02:51 AlphaMan wrote: Hellbats are fine in all match ups except for TvT. Somehow they need to be just nerfed in one matchup while maintaining their strength in other matchups... difficult to do
Do you think nearly every zerg is complaining about them just for the hell of it? Theres no reason to do anything but hellbat drop s in tvz, potentially game ending damage and if zerg defends it perfectly its not even an advantage for zerg.
yes, zerg complains about everything.
few months ago mine was beyond broken. then reapersm medviacs, and now apparently hellbats and soon bc/raven
On July 04 2013 02:51 AlphaMan wrote: Hellbats are fine in all match ups except for TvT. Somehow they need to be just nerfed in one matchup while maintaining their strength in other matchups... difficult to do
Do you think nearly every zerg is complaining about them just for the hell of it? Theres no reason to do anything but hellbat drop s in tvz, potentially game ending damage and if zerg defends it perfectly its not even an advantage for zerg.
yes, zerg complains about everything.
few months ago mine was beyond broken. then reapersm medviacs, and now apparently hellbats and soon bc/raven
Every race complains about everything that gives them trouble, stop being so dramatic.
I agree that Hellbat drops have made TvT a very uninteresting match up in a lot of scenarios lately. I have never understood why this has become such a big issue though. So let's look at a few of the key components that make Hellbat drops in TvT so good.
1. They can happen relatively quickly 2. They produce equivalent if not greater than cost to defend. 3. They have a good amount of health. 4. They burst down scvs extremely quickly. 5. They can be healed.
As of right now there is no real risk to reward ratio going on. Even if the hellbats die they are generally going to trade for a few scvs first and this is the main problem.
So which area would benefit a nerf without changing the dynamics of the other matchups and this unit too hard? We could question maybe some kind of delay to the time they can come out, but in their current form they have added a large amount of diversity in TvZ and TvP which is a change in the right direction. So I don't believe that would be for the best. Would it be possible to somehow make it cost less to defend against them without skewing all of the other balance? probably not. Changing their health or damage would also create too many balance hiccups in other matchups.
So with all that said. In my humble opinion the problem is healing. And honestly I don't see why they cannot just remove the healing altogether. Drops could still happen and it would still punish people for not being prepared. But that window of time where the hellbat lives a few seconds longer and kills all your defensive units would be gone. And it may make hellbats in the other matchup worse. But as they are always used with bio, it just means the terran would have to protect the hellbats from damage a little more (EG tucking them tightly behind marauders). I really don't see the need for healing in mech where starport usage is usually much better spent on Vikings.
And if that were too heavy a change, the other possible solution is to make the ability for them to heal a 100/100 armory upgrade. Delaying the ability to heal the hellbats for a minute or so and also making it a much larger investment in the early game.
I might be retarded but I feel like that would fix a lot of the problems without changing too much drastically.
More then that - on non-pro level, terrans won't be able to win against other races, because hellbats are the only attacking unit of terran with a small multitask/micro requirement.
You seem to forget WM, or maybe u list it as attacking unit of terran with no multitask/micro requirement lol. As a Z I think Hellbat not only a great additional option for harass but for mech as well, seeing now mech terran can push much faster than before since now they have a splash damage option to clear ling surround without friendly fire or even the need to micro (for hellion at least u need to keep them at the back for a thor with hellbat A move is more than needed).
On July 04 2013 00:02 Wakimomo wrote: Blizzard should definitely remove speedboost from medivacs and give it to hellbats. Also nerf the build timing of spawningpool to maybe 4 minutesish, 6 pool is so OP nowadays, remove warpgate while your at it too.
No, speedboost is WAY too important for medivacs, it brought back a lot of maneuvers that ceased being possible as people got better in WoL.
On July 04 2013 00:02 Wakimomo wrote: Blizzard should definitely remove speedboost from medivacs and give it to hellbats. Also nerf the build timing of spawningpool to maybe 4 minutesish, 6 pool is so OP nowadays, remove warpgate while your at it too.
No, speedboost is WAY too important for medivacs, it brought back a lot of maneuvers that ceased being possible as people got better in WoL.
Agreed medivac boost is sweet you gotta keep that shit.
On July 03 2013 20:57 Markwerf wrote: I agree terran should receive a small buff in response. Hellbat drops are hardly used in TvZ and TvP though and many top terrans even state that it's not even good play which I kind of agree with if you're playing the regular bio styles. Hellbats are quite solid lategame TvP though, the range is a pretty moot point given they'll be fighting zealots mostly.
The buff in return should be very small though because terran 'losing' hellbat drops is a very small nerf for them given how easily you can play without it. Just rolling in the damage with blueflame will probably happen, hellbats down to 21 or 22 damage will still keep drops viable in TvP/TvZ since it's all about 2 shotting workers anyway and after blueflame they could have normal stats. In return slightly reducing blueflame and transformation servos costs to not hurt mech overall should be fine. Banshee buff or even thor buff would also be fine I think. It will probably affect TvT mostly and terrans might not add in hellbats anymore in lategame TvP because it would be too much of a hassle. Some hellbat timings in TvZ might also be gone. Overall i'd love to see the early hellbat drops be a bit rarer, they are just boring and feel so silly that a 300/100 total cost of dropship + 2 hellbats often still does damage against turret and marines. I'd also like to see blueflame hellions and transformation actually be used, it seems a bit silly that a transformation is rarely used just because it's more effective to straight up make hellbats. I seriously can't remember ever seeing hellbats transform in pro games (maybe some of yours but haven't seen them).
I completely disagree with your opinion that they're useless in TvZ. Hellbat drops have near zero risk and a high chance of doing damage when done correctly (in my opinion). Im not saying they 100% need a nerf at this point but I'd keep a very very close eye out for it.
On July 04 2013 00:02 Wakimomo wrote: Blizzard should definitely remove speedboost from medivacs and give it to hellbats. Also nerf the build timing of spawningpool to maybe 4 minutesish, 6 pool is so OP nowadays, remove warpgate while your at it too.
No, speedboost is WAY too important for medivacs, it brought back a lot of maneuvers that ceased being possible as people got better in WoL.
If terrans balance relies on hellbats being a threat something else should be changed next to a hellbat nerf. First nerf the hellbat slightly see if it affects the matchups then if terran does turn out to be weak without the hellbat threat you can give them a buff I don't like the idea of keeping hellbats the way they are at all. It's a very boring and frustrating thing to watch and play against.
I knew mech players like Strelok and GoOdy would be scared of the day that hellbats got nerfed, as hellbats are the only thing that keeps mech viable right now IMO. Hopefully Strelok can continue being successful with mech, as he is doing a very good job right now, even vs protoss. Keep it up Strelok! I strongly disagree with you saying hellbats are bad in the mid/late game though. they are so beefy, and this is what keeps the mech army viable and gives the siege tanks a chance to unleash their barrage of range splash before amoving zealots and zerglings get underneath them (and terran bio from swarming them).
In saying that, the proposed change with the blue flame upgrade might not ruin mech overall, it seems like a smart change. Depends on how heavily mech requires doing damage with early hellbat drops I guess.
I understand that terrans do need their hellbats, but it is still very annoying when the defenders have to invest more to defend than the hellbat dropper. Also, TvT has become much more stale with hellbat drop. If you want to make mech more viable, then maybe the tanks could use some work (especially against zerg's bush attacks).
All-in-all, hellbats should be more of a midgame unit not an early game unit that dictates the pace; that's more the hellion's job. Make the hellbats come out later and more of an actual investment.
On July 04 2013 14:55 RHGaming wrote: I completely disagree with your opinion that they're useless in TvZ. Hellbat drops have near zero risk and a high chance of doing damage when done correctly (in my opinion). Im not saying they 100% need a nerf at this point but I'd keep a very very close eye out for it.
This is completely wrong. Your upgrades are considerably delayed when going Hellbat drops vs Zerg, so if you don't deal enough damage you're behind in the midgame (i. e. the critical phase of the game for Terran) since you're 1/1 vs 2/2, which usually results in poor trades.
On July 03 2013 14:26 fezvez wrote: I would like the bio tag to remain (even though it is nonsensical, it makes sense in term of gameplay)
My favourite option so far is to reduce damage to 18 + 4 vs light, and with BFH it becomes 18 + 12 vs light (the same as right now)
This way, unupgraded hellbats would 3-shot marines and SCVs in the beginning of the game, but would still 2-shot drones and probes, thus keeping hellbat drops as viable openers in TvP and TvZ.
There's word that the Hellbat might get nerfed. Players like Flash have said that this is a change that must not be made. What are your thoughts?
I don't put much weight in Hellbats outside of TvT. And that's a mirror, so it doesn't really matter there. I think I'd be fine in other match-ups even with a nerf.
Don't you think TvT has become a bit boring, because it's too hellbat-drop oriented?
No, it's fun for me. Because both players are so busy, exchanging blows with each other.
So that's what INoVation has to say
I personally think the only problem with Hellbats is in TvT, where they are two prevalent, so it's slightly dull, but I'm fine with them in the other matchups
On July 03 2013 14:26 fezvez wrote: I would like the bio tag to remain (even though it is nonsensical, it makes sense in term of gameplay)
My favourite option so far is to reduce damage to 18 + 4 vs light, and with BFH it becomes 18 + 12 vs light (the same as right now)
This way, unupgraded hellbats would 3-shot marines and SCVs in the beginning of the game, but would still 2-shot drones and probes, thus keeping hellbat drops as viable openers in TvP and TvZ.
On July 04 2013 20:42 malaan wrote: I hate TvT now to be honest. It really is hellbat or die. You can't predict it's coming soon enough, you are dead.
But then, a GM guy killed me 15 minutes ago with a proxy stargate build that looked like a hellbat openner :/
cant win em all I guess.
He was really good if he made you think he was Terran while actually playing Protoss.
lol x10^10! I rofled really hard! Course you can't win because that GM must've had some sort of all star race! reminds me of BW protoss with Dark Archons and zerg with infestors
On July 04 2013 14:55 RHGaming wrote: I completely disagree with your opinion that they're useless in TvZ. Hellbat drops have near zero risk and a high chance of doing damage when done correctly (in my opinion). Im not saying they 100% need a nerf at this point but I'd keep a very very close eye out for it.
This is completely wrong. Your upgrades are considerably delayed when going Hellbat drops vs Zerg, so if you don't deal enough damage you're behind in the midgame (i. e. the critical phase of the game for Terran) since you're 1/1 vs 2/2, which usually results in poor trades.
The good thing about hellbats is that a lot of zergs are panicking and are totally overreacting by building 3-4 spores + spines per base. With that amount of indirect damage, you dont even need to do damage anymore to be ahead. Especially with fast 3rd after that.
And the funny thing is that those investments, although they put you behind, dont even guaruantee that you are save against hellbats. Just unload them somewhere in the base without letting the medivac take damage and fly away. One hellbat attacks the mineral line from the left one from the right... As long as you dont suicide medivacs you only invest minerals and can tech behind it np. Yes youve invested 100 gas earlier in an armory but then you do double upgrade and youre fine...
In tvt its simpy impossible to defend with no gas expand. You need bunker, marines, turret, viking and maybe a widow mine to shut them down completely. Amd you dont have all of that early enough.
I think maybe give hellbats 25 gas cost if you produce them from the factory, but normal hellions stay the same cost. I also like the test map, you can still get + 20 worker kills with hellbats but you need one shot more which gives you more time to save scvs. Late and midgame stays the same when youve upgraded blue flame.
Don't nerf hellbat, nerf timing or buff defense, the unit itself is ok right now, dealing may be a little bit too much damage. I liked the idea of nerfing dps and making the blue flame research effective for hellbat. sorry for bad english T_T
As a Protoss player I don't have a huge problem with them, Terran need to do so much in order to make there army work against mid/late game protoss that it makes sense for them to have something that dsnt require much work to be cost effective...
The biggest problem I see is when watching Pro games.... especially TvT... it's just silly... you can watch someone play really well and miss one drop, or let it do too much.. and then the game is over, essentially. It's not actually good or enjoyable to watch and makes what used to be a pretty good and exciting match up, dull and over before its really began.
Hellbat will now have 18 + 4 vs light and blue flame will give full light dmg back.
This will make TvP and TvZ almost untouched (because they will still two shot drones/probe unless someone does insane worker micro) but will make TvT early hellbat drops less effective because hellbat will now three shot SCVs.
It also makes hellbat consistent with Hellion (8+6light but BF makes 8+11).
On July 04 2013 21:48 Dingodile wrote: I think mw is a bigger problem than hellbats in tvz.
hellbats cant be healed during attack.
I know widow mines blast away my lings so bad. Blizzard should look at them as well (but only a minor nerf or make them require more skill-which what Ive suggested in designated balance thread.)
And as discussed in other threads, nerfing any kinds of healing mechanism (even making it mech/non-healable), the drop is still effective. (dam I should find that vid on youtube.). nerfing dmg in early game is the answer.
Edit: note that I'm not agreeing with Blizzard's suggestion. please read my previous posts.
Are you guys really sure that hellbats trishotting workers instead of two shotting them will completely destroy hellbat drops?
Even though they will trishot them instead of two shooting them, the opponent will still have to pull its workers, losing mining time the same than today.
I don't see why people think this nerf is so huge...
Don't you think TvT has become a bit boring, because it's too hellbat-drop oriented?
No, it's fun for me. Because both players are so busy, exchanging blows with each other.
Completely 100% how I feel about it and how I felt about pre-nerf BFH in old day TvT.
EDIT: Infact, I think anyone who experienced old BFH drops would find hellbats quite mild in comparison... I mean your workers can outrun hellbats... try outrunning a hellion.
On July 04 2013 22:02 VieuxSinge wrote: Are you guys really sure that hellbats trishotting workers instead of two shotting them witl completely destroy hellbat drops?
Even though they will trishot them instead of two shooting them, the opponent will still have to pull its workers, losing mining time the same than today.
I don't see this why people think this nerf is so huge...
No, that's the point. It's just that now, if you react on time you don't lose stuff (as it should be). they'll still be used but not spammed.
Don't you think TvT has become a bit boring, because it's too hellbat-drop oriented?
No, it's fun for me. Because both players are so busy, exchanging blows with each other.
Completely 100% how I feel about it and how I felt about pre-nerf BFH in old day TvT.
EDIT: Infact, I think anyone who experienced old BFH drops would find hellbats quite mild in comparison... I mean your workers can outrun hellbats... try outrunning a hellion.
But...(I know i'm being against a big guy :D) They didn't have speedvac then. QQ speedvac made hellbat VERY mobile. So pple started using hellbat instead of hellion after the nerf because hellbat have way more dps than anyother things with only minerals. I think one dude said in other threads "You can outrun hellbat but You can't outrun medivac :D
Edit: 'way more dps with splash than anyother things with only minerals'
I'd be perfectly happy with a huge hellbat nerf if they made tanks 2 supply. The hellbats are so essential in making mech work outside of TvT because tanks are so useless.
On July 04 2013 22:39 monkybone wrote: The best changes right now for the game in my opinion would be:
Hellbat: Change damage output such that hellbats 3 shot scvs, but still 2 shots probes & drones. Hellbats receive bonus damage vs light from the blue flame upgrade.
Tank: add an armory or tech lab upgrade to give tanks bonus damage to shields.
Photon overcharge: increase damage vs armored to help with medievac harassment.
That's what I have wanted (and said before)! hellbat starts off with 18+4 light then upgraded to 18+12 light.
But tanks with bonus dmg to shield? and PO with vs armored? WHY? (or could you explain further? )
On July 04 2013 22:39 monkybone wrote: The best changes right now for the game in my opinion would be:
Hellbat: Change damage output such that hellbats 3 shot scvs, but still 2 shots probes & drones. Hellbats receive bonus damage vs light from the blue flame upgrade.
Tank: add an armory or tech lab upgrade to give tanks bonus damage to shields.
Photon overcharge: increase damage vs armored to help with medievac harassment.
That's what I have wanted (and said before)! hellbat starts off with 18+4 light then upgraded to 18+12 light.
But bonus dmg to shield? and PO with vs armored? You mad? (or could you explain further? )
Tanks are too useless in tvp right now, bonus damage to shields will make them more powerful when meching in tvp.
I think tanks are too useless in tvp, okish? in tvt and also bad because of vipers in tvz. they need more major changes than just dmg+ (which will not happend until LOv and that is sad )
People don't seem to note that Strelok is a proffesional starcraft player through many years, including starcraft bw... If his opinion does'nt matter, whos does?
On July 04 2013 22:39 monkybone wrote: The best changes right now for the game in my opinion would be:
Hellbat: Change damage output such that hellbats 3 shot scvs, but still 2 shots probes & drones. Hellbats receive bonus damage vs light from the blue flame upgrade.
Tank: add an armory or tech lab upgrade to give tanks bonus damage to shields.
Photon overcharge: increase damage vs armored to help with medievac harassment.
That's what I have wanted (and said before)! hellbat starts off with 18+4 light then upgraded to 18+12 light.
But bonus dmg to shield? and PO with vs armored? You mad? (or could you explain further? )
Tanks are too useless in tvp right now, bonus damage to shields will make them more powerful when meching in tvp.
I think tanks are too useless in tvp, okish? in tvt and also bad because of vipers in tvz. they need more major changes than just dmg+ (which will not happend until LOv and that is sad )
tanks are still powerful in tvt, a flat damage buff could be bad for the matchup
what? who are you talking to? I said 'they need more major changes than just dmg+ '
Put flamethrower on the Mighty Thor then there is no reason for hellbat to remain in the game. Mech will be even more powerful than ever! Wa hahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahaha
To be serious, maybe changing the blue flame upgrade to tank base damage buff, since I have not seen the blue flames being upgraded like since Hots. The nerf to hellbat will probably be not getting heal by medivac and increase the difficulty of microing the hellbat. Make it more rewarding to players who have good multi-tasking. I mean very good.
On July 04 2013 23:24 lemonbone wrote: Put flamethrower on the Mighty Thor then there is no reason for hellbat to remain in the game. Mech will be even more powerful than ever! Wa hahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahaha
To be serious, maybe changing the blue flame upgrade to tank base damage buff, since I have not seen the blue flames being upgraded like since Hots. The nerf to hellbat will probably be not getting heal by medivac and increase the difficulty of microing the hellbat. Make it more rewarding to players who have good multi-tasking. I mean very good.
I get your point that hellbat shouldn't be just an easy execution but making hellbat not healable still kills enough workers before they die (and being cost effective). And the thing is that this drop come out too early before terran can set up some defence. Even if they suceedly defended, no real benefit for the defender (esp in TvT). That is the problem.
On July 04 2013 23:42 Koshi wrote: Maybe they need to get the same nerf as the helion got. Unupgraded they would need 3 shots to kill workers.
And that's exactly what blizzard is doing it now! Yet I think it should be 18 +6 light before blue flame in order that it only 3 shots SCV but still 2 shots drones and probes.
On July 04 2013 23:42 Koshi wrote: Maybe they need to get the same nerf as the helion got. Unupgraded they would need 3 shots to kill workers.
I don't know but the main problem doesn't seem to be their worker killing to me. Sure they sometimes just win games accidently like that and it's annoying. However, what I think is more problematic is how dropping them onto anything makes them good vs that. E.g. Bomber vs Keen was not decided by hellbats grilling SCVs but by hellbats grilling marines and marauders. Or that video of Innovation vs I-dont-know where Innovation didn't lose a single unit. He didn't drop the SCVs, he just killed the army with the hellbat drops.
I'd say that is the problem. Hellbat+medivac is a counter to (nearly) anything on the ground for as long as the medivacs reach it. It makes hellbat drops so hard to defend, as it is not clear what to defend, the opponent can just kill anything that is not overpowering the hellbat/medivac combo.
On July 04 2013 22:50 BoggieMan wrote: People don't seem to note that Strelok is a proffesional starcraft player through many years, including starcraft bw... If his opinion does'nt matter, whos does?
On July 04 2013 23:42 Koshi wrote: Maybe they need to get the same nerf as the helion got. Unupgraded they would need 3 shots to kill workers.
I don't know but the main problem doesn't seem to be their worker killing to me. Sure they sometimes just win games accidently like that and it's annoying. However, what I think is more problematic is how dropping them onto anything makes them good vs that. E.g. Bomber vs Keen was not decided by hellbats grilling SCVs but by hellbats grilling marines and marauders. Or that video of Innovation vs I-dont-know where Innovation didn't lose a single unit. He didn't drop the SCVs, he just killed the army with the hellbat drops.
I'd say that is the problem. Hellbat+medivac is a counter to (nearly) anything on the ground for as long as the medivacs reach it. It makes hellbat drops so hard to defend, as it is not clear what to defend, the opponent can just kill anything that is not overpowering the hellbat/medivac combo.
I found Keen playing perfect in the Bomber vs Keen game till that quad drop came in that indeed roasted everything. With a bit less damage on HB that could have turned out pretty good for Keen. Because Keen also slipped up a bit during that fight, he pulled his scvs but after that let them die. I think that the combo Hellbat/Medivac is good for the spectators.
On July 04 2013 23:42 Koshi wrote: Maybe they need to get the same nerf as the helion got. Unupgraded they would need 3 shots to kill workers.
And that's exactly what blizzard is doing it now! Yet I think it should be 18 +6 light before blue flame in order that it only 3 shots SCV but still 2 shots drones and probes.
Wouldn't that make them too strong with the upgrade?
On July 04 2013 23:42 Koshi wrote: Maybe they need to get the same nerf as the helion got. Unupgraded they would need 3 shots to kill workers.
And that's exactly what blizzard is doing it now! Yet I think it should be 18 +6 light before blue flame in order that it only 3 shots SCV but still 2 shots drones and probes.
Wouldn't that make them too strong with the upgrade?
No. The upgrade is just same (i.e. back to current hellbats having 18 + 12 light)
EDIT: did you mean they should get decreased dmg and STAY decreased?
On July 04 2013 23:42 Koshi wrote: Maybe they need to get the same nerf as the helion got. Unupgraded they would need 3 shots to kill workers.
I don't know but the main problem doesn't seem to be their worker killing to me. Sure they sometimes just win games accidently like that and it's annoying. However, what I think is more problematic is how dropping them onto anything makes them good vs that. E.g. Bomber vs Keen was not decided by hellbats grilling SCVs but by hellbats grilling marines and marauders. Or that video of Innovation vs I-dont-know where Innovation didn't lose a single unit. He didn't drop the SCVs, he just killed the army with the hellbat drops.
I'd say that is the problem. Hellbat+medivac is a counter to (nearly) anything on the ground for as long as the medivacs reach it. It makes hellbat drops so hard to defend, as it is not clear what to defend, the opponent can just kill anything that is not overpowering the hellbat/medivac combo.
I found Keen playing perfect in the Bomber vs Keen game till that quad drop came in that indeed roasted everything. With a bit less damage on HB that could have turned out pretty good for Keen. Because Keen also slipped up a bit during that fight, he pulled his scvs but after that let them die. I think that the combo Hellbat/Medivac is good for the spectators.
oh no...
Now i'm puzzled. I did not know that hellbats can be TAHT strong maybe I should go with what others has been said from the hots release (and which I don't think blizzard will never like it). NEFR THE DAMAGE AND REMOVE THE BIO TAG!!!
I'm having several concept difficulties with Hellbats.
Firstly the transformation is really bad: increases HP, size and makes it bio. It's almost like if hydralisk could transform into zealot.
So why not two separate units? Who uses the transformation anyway, I think blizzard's redundancy design is flawed - hellbat and hellion roles aren't quite the same.
Second of all if it's bio make it build from barracks, if it's mech make it build from factory.
Thirdly hellbats for a light unit look pretty armored to me, like bigger marauders.
What Blizzard primary wanted is a tanking unit effective vs zealots/zergling viable from factory that can be effectively used with other mech in TvP.
I think they have designed a nice unit but the role is only partially fulfilled and that's what happends when you design a unit for a specific role.
On July 04 2013 23:42 Koshi wrote: Maybe they need to get the same nerf as the helion got. Unupgraded they would need 3 shots to kill workers.
And that's exactly what blizzard is doing it now! Yet I think it should be 18 +6 light before blue flame in order that it only 3 shots SCV but still 2 shots drones and probes.
Wouldn't that make them too strong with the upgrade?
No. The upgrade is just same (i.e. back to current hellbats having 18 + 12 light)
EDIT: did you mean they should get decreased dmg and STAY decreased?
Ah wow. I thought the blue flame upgrade added more than +5 damage. Kinda silly I didn't know that after so many games. Anyway, why do you say 18+6 light needs 3 hits on scvs? It should be 18+4 for 3 hitting scvs. But then with blue flame it becomes 18 + 9 light. Which makes them 3 damage weaker upgraded vs light.
On July 05 2013 01:03 LastWish wrote: I'm having several concept difficulties with Hellbats.
Firstly the transformation is really bad: increases HP, size and makes it bio. It's almost like if hydralisk could transform into zealot.
So why not two separate units? Who uses the transformation anyway, I think blizzard's redundancy design is flawed - hellbat and hellion roles aren't quite the same.
Second of all if it's bio make it build from barracks, if it's mech make it build from factory.
Thirdly hellbats for a light unit look pretty armored to me, like bigger marauders.
What Blizzard primary wanted is a tanking unit effective vs zealots/zergling viable from factory that can be effectively used with other mech in TvP.
I think they have designed a nice unit but the role is only partially fulfilled and that's what happends when you design a unit for a specific role.
If BFH openers ever become viable/popular again, I think the transformation upgrade might see use.... I'm really curious how the old gas first -> bfh -> expo -> reactor hellions/reactor vikings build would do vs hellbat drops... BFH kinda trade well with hellbats and if he goes something that the bfh dont trade well with you could get the servo upg and change them to bfh.
BFH do not require medivacs (as much as hellbats), which should let you win the viking war...
If you can win the viking war, bfh trade very well with grounded hellbats. Andddddddd unless you are fighting in your base you can probably run away until you've won the viking war (which you should win because you didnt make any medivacs). Anyway this is all in my head at this point but I think it could work.
On July 05 2013 01:03 LastWish wrote: What Blizzard primary wanted is a tanking unit effective vs zealots/zergling viable from factory that can be effectively used with other mech in TvP.
I think they have designed a nice unit but the role is only partially fulfilled and that's what happends when you design a unit for a specific role.
The problem is not the unit role but the bigger picture. With warhound removal mech TvP had no chance and hellbat has been left without a clear purpose. Turning it into drop unit was always senseless as it was a poorly veiled attempt to make mech play work more like bio. Just without the mobility and in an expansion with a new set of counters. There was never going to be a middle-ground between.useless and OP.
Never thought I'd agree with Avilo on something, but why don't you support the removal of bio from the Hellbat? It won't be healable, pretty much fixing the problem with Hellbats in Bio playstyles, but making TvP mech more viable by drastically reducing the damage Hellbats take from Archons.
I think that there are multiple ways to nerf Hellbat drops without hurting the actual Hellbat, such as causing Medivacs to take extra damage while under the effects of speed boost(not so much that drops become impossible, maybe 50% more damage?). This would make it incredibly difficult to drop onto turrets and static/active defenses and be able to extract the drop after the units have left the Medivac which would die soon after. (of course, in order to avoid unnecessary abuse of this mechanic, the boost should be able to be canceled early).
EDIT: this idea is really rough to implement, seeing as I just realized marine drops would get CRUSHED by static defenses (not that they don't already get fairly well countered)
They should consider changing the speed boost so that the medivac can't drop while it is boosted. Speed boost is intended to make drops easier by offering better escaping mechanism, not for people to do dumb shit such as speed boosting over turrets to drop hellbats or mines.
On July 05 2013 01:25 Liquid`Jinro wrote: If BFH openers ever become viable/popular again, I think the transformation upgrade might see use.... I'm really curious how the old gas first -> bfh -> expo -> reactor hellions/reactor vikings build would do vs hellbat drops... BFH kinda trade well with hellbats and if he goes something that the bfh dont trade well with you could get the servo upg and change them to bfh.
BFH do not require medivacs (as much as hellbats), which should let you win the viking war...
If you can win the viking war, bfh trade very well with grounded hellbats. Andddddddd unless you are fighting in your base you can probably run away until you've won the viking war (which you should win because you didnt make any medivacs). Anyway this is all in my head at this point but I think it could work.
Yes, Hellions/Vikings timings can work until he get either a Tank or Thor. BFH helps but isn't mandatory, you can hit & run ad infinitum with simple Hellions as well, but obviously it will take longer. That being said, all Mr. Hellbat needs is a single Bunker to stall for years (during that time, he get either a Thor, or Tanks) with Repair since Hellions aren't exactly good at destroying buildings.
On July 04 2013 22:50 BoggieMan wrote: People don't seem to note that Strelok is a proffesional starcraft player through many years, including starcraft bw... If his opinion does'nt matter, whos does?
Flash: "I have no idea why they are nerfing hellbats. I know that you see a ton of hellbats for TvT, but in my personal opinion, you can’t use hellbats for TvP so it’s a useless unit for that matchup"
Is it ok to say Flash is wrong? There's so many highlevel TvP's with hellbats.
On July 04 2013 23:42 Koshi wrote: Maybe they need to get the same nerf as the helion got. Unupgraded they would need 3 shots to kill workers.
And that's exactly what blizzard is doing it now! Yet I think it should be 18 +6 light before blue flame in order that it only 3 shots SCV but still 2 shots drones and probes.
Wouldn't that make them too strong with the upgrade?
No. The upgrade is just same (i.e. back to current hellbats having 18 + 12 light)
EDIT: did you mean they should get decreased dmg and STAY decreased?
Ah wow. I thought the blue flame upgrade added more than +5 damage. Kinda silly I didn't know that after so many games. Anyway, why do you say 18+6 light needs 3 hits on scvs? It should be 18+4 for 3 hitting scvs. But then with blue flame it becomes 18 + 9 light. Which makes them 3 damage weaker upgraded vs light.
It used to add +10 damage, it was nerfed down to +5 after that one MLG where all the Slayers Terrans won everything with BFH. This made it so BFH would three shot workers instead of two-shot workers (unless you maintained a 2 upgrade lead on your opponent).
It also had the side effect of making mech TvP utterly impossible. It was after this nerf that Goody started going bio in TvP for the remainder of WoL.
Flash: "I have no idea why they are nerfing hellbats. I know that you see a ton of hellbats for TvT, but in my personal opinion, you can’t use hellbats for TvP so it’s a useless unit for that matchup"
Is it ok to say Flash is wrong? There's so many highlevel TvP's with hellbats.
On July 04 2013 23:42 Koshi wrote: Maybe they need to get the same nerf as the helion got. Unupgraded they would need 3 shots to kill workers.
And that's exactly what blizzard is doing it now! Yet I think it should be 18 +6 light before blue flame in order that it only 3 shots SCV but still 2 shots drones and probes.
Wouldn't that make them too strong with the upgrade?
No. The upgrade is just same (i.e. back to current hellbats having 18 + 12 light)
EDIT: did you mean they should get decreased dmg and STAY decreased?
Ah wow. I thought the blue flame upgrade added more than +5 damage. Kinda silly I didn't know that after so many games. Anyway, why do you say 18+6 light needs 3 hits on scvs? It should be 18+4 for 3 hitting scvs. But then with blue flame it becomes 18 + 9 light. Which makes them 3 damage weaker upgraded vs light.
oops. I shouldn't stay asleep when I'm posting It was 18+4. My mistake.
I was against your view (18+9 after BF) but now, I REALLY DON'T KNOW I thought only early hellbat DROP IN MINERAL LINE was the problem but now, I don't know what exactly is... i'm out
I got a bud who says that he hates hellbats because they make bio unusable, and that he hates mech because it takes "no apm" and it's easier than bio.
Then I watch him play and he has 100 apm and sits on 3 base massing a bio army, while the mech player drops and counter attacks more than he does...
I get the feeling a lot of people who complain about hellbats are like my friend. Hellbats do not make TvT worse. It doesn't add luck. They increase the skillcap of mech by quite a large margin compared to wings.
Maybe worse to watch, but the better players wins TvT more than any other matchup.
On July 03 2013 20:46 murphs wrote: Your concern about mech is unwarranted, I don't see how the hellbat is a mech unit other than the fact it is built from the factory. Siege tanks are mech, if your concern is to make mech viable that's where the attention needs to be.
Hellbat drops should be nerfed for the sole effect they have on TvT, that matchup was glorious until the hellbat came along.
Hellbat drops are are more or less reliable way to set up for a mech-based midgame, if you would take that away your "real mech" siege tank army will be in some serious trouble later.
This is right there with that blue flame helion drop into banshee BC rubbish that was all over the US server a year and a half ago. In the end the Slayers worked out you could just make BFH and win without pretending it was a skyterran/tankless revolution. If you have to do something that cheesy to get ahead to go into a style then the style is bad.
That said I don't think the drops are needed to go into mech.
On July 03 2013 20:56 cythaze wrote: Also, Terran is statisticly even with the other races (at best) so a nerf to hellbat drops in TvT would tip the balance in favour of Protoss and Zerg in the other matchups.
Also note that if Terran is just balanced because of the free wins helion drops are throwing into the stats, that implies Terran is otherwise weak, that's no balance at all. Again I don't think this is true. There are bad players relying on hellbat drops to hit above their skill level who'll argue to the end to keep it. Good terrans no doubt think its annoying and lame, as do most of we randoms.
On July 03 2013 20:46 murphs wrote: Your concern about mech is unwarranted, I don't see how the hellbat is a mech unit other than the fact it is built from the factory. Siege tanks are mech, if your concern is to make mech viable that's where the attention needs to be.
Hellbat drops should be nerfed for the sole effect they have on TvT, that matchup was glorious until the hellbat came along.
Hellbat drops are are more or less reliable way to set up for a mech-based midgame, if you would take that away your "real mech" siege tank army will be in some serious trouble later.
This is right there with that blue flame helion drop into banshee BC rubbish that was all over the US server a year and a half ago. In the end the Slayers worked out you could just make BFH and win without pretending it was a skyterran/tankless revolution. If you have to do something that cheesy to get ahead to go into a style then the style is bad.
That said I don't think the drops are needed to go into mech.
On July 03 2013 20:56 cythaze wrote: Also, Terran is statisticly even with the other races (at best) so a nerf to hellbat drops in TvT would tip the balance in favour of Protoss and Zerg in the other matchups.
Also note that if Terran is just balanced because of the free wins helion drops are throwing into the stats, that implies Terran is otherwise weak, that's no balance at all. Again I don't think this is true. There are bad players relying on hellbat drops to hit above their skill level who'll argue to the end to keep it. Good terrans no doubt think its annoying and lame, as do most of we randoms.
And when good pro players started to abuse that, hellbat drop war has been on the match ups lately. NOT FUN AT ALLL!!!!
On July 05 2013 08:49 Rhaegal wrote: I got a bud who says that he hates hellbats because they make bio unusable, and that he hates mech because it takes "no apm" and it's easier than bio.
Then I watch him play and he has 100 apm and sits on 3 base massing a bio army, while the mech player drops and counter attacks more than he does...
I get the feeling a lot of people who complain about hellbats are like my friend. Hellbats do not make TvT worse. It doesn't add luck. They increase the skillcap of mech by quite a large margin compared to wings.
Maybe worse to watch, but the better players wins TvT more than any other matchup.
you have ONE friend who does that and you assume a lot of us are playing like him? we are complaining about how early it can hit and how much preparing we need to defend it. Mid game wise it's not THAT bad. It's the hellbat drop opening that is troublesome and arguably what everyone is disliking hellbat drop is about it only. Hellbat drops only lead to more hellbat drops etc
I would personally like to see what a hitbox size increase would do to the Hellbat drop--since they are bulky enough to take up 4 spots in a Medivac, it only stands to reason that their hitbox should be a bit bulkier as well, preventing them from going through small building gaps. Having the ability to maze one's base to have exit routes could have some neat potential without making the entire strat useless.
On July 05 2013 09:31 jkim91 wrote: Remove the bio tag as a start. It doesn't make sense how a mech unit can be healed at no additional cost, while repair at a cost DOES make sense.
That really isn't the issue.
The issue is it being bio is actually a nerf to mech and a buff to bio.
On July 05 2013 09:31 jkim91 wrote: Remove the bio tag as a start. It doesn't make sense how a mech unit can be healed at no additional cost, while repair at a cost DOES make sense.
That really isn't the issue.
The issue is it being bio is actually a nerf to mech and a buff to bio.
Does Terran mech deserve to be nerfed? No. Does Terran bio deserve to be buffed? No. Remove the bio tag please.
On July 05 2013 09:29 shelfofjustice wrote: I would personally like to see what a hitbox size increase would do to the Hellbat drop--since they are bulky enough to take up 4 spots in a Medivac, it only stands to reason that their hitbox should be a bit bulkier as well, preventing them from going through small building gaps. Having the ability to maze one's base to have exit routes could have some neat potential without making the entire strat useless.
That sounds good. But how big it should it be though? the thing is that it is a transformation from hellion (you can't tell by looking at the current unit though!), it shouldn't be too big as thor. maybe between tank and hellion I guess?
On July 05 2013 09:31 jkim91 wrote: Remove the bio tag as a start. It doesn't make sense how a mech unit can be healed at no additional cost, while repair at a cost DOES make sense.
I hope they will do some + on top of that. just removing bio tag (non-healable so to speak) still keep hellbats to gril workers to their cost (so at least 2 workers kill+ stopped mining time.)
EDIT: I hope they will do some more nerf on top of that. maybe
What if they just added all of the units that are in campaign like goliaths and then balanced those units? I mean, they have all of these perfectly fine units to choose from, they just never even mess with them. Why would they create an entirely new unit (hellbat) instead of just changing goliaths into something good..? Mech has always needed some "tank" unit (ironically not the tanks) to soak up damage and be in the way. Hellbats are alright at this, except every mech unit that is strong also happens to be really slow, making mech susceptible to counterattacks and getting caught off-guard. Also, since thors are the only anti-air, for the most part, a unit like goliath would work nicely.
And if they were to add ALL (or a lot) of the campaign-only units, it could vary play up considerably. Science vessel would have been really interesting, had it not been semi-converted into the Raven. Vultures? Yes please! Diamondback? Sure, why not? Wraiths? Hell, someone might be able to find a use for them over the Viking + Banshees. The same could be said for Zerg as well. Unfortunately, I don't know how many Protoss campaign-specific units there are since we don't have Protoss as a playable campaign race yet... But there might be a few? Who knows, just come up with some more! [edit] Oh, just remembered the scout. Since the voidray and oracle both are in need of a change due to how incredibly poorly they were designed, the scout could potentially fill that niche. It's cool having more air-units if you ask me, but numbers and even designs would need definite changes.
Hellbat is a horribly designed unit and should obviously be changed. Terran might be bad without them, but when they are rushed to in every match-up quite often, it should be a sign. I remember this one TvT (I think it was Inno vs. Alive) and Alive tried to go a marine-heavy CC opener and just flat-out died to Innovation's hellbat drops. It wasn't even close. Hellbats just don't reflect skill well enough. Though, Innovation does have a bit of a gift for hellbat style...
But back to the main point, just adding a unit like the goliath and balancing it would be a decent solution. Number balancing can fix things, too. I presume they will just number nerf the hellbat in a few ways though.
1. Remove bio tag (to make it less synesied with medivac when dropped.). (-point: causes some issue with archon dmg)
2. Make 18+4 light at the beginning so that early drop is not that efficient in TvT ONLY. Can research back with pre-igniter upgrade. (not sure what would be bad.maybe not enough nerf?)
3. If ppl still want bio tag, make a research of 50/50 60s or 100/100 90s that allows hellbat to be biological and transform. (-point: does ppl really want/use hellion/hellbat transformation)
@blargh. That is a good idea but blizzard won't introduce more units (esp BW units!) until Lov comes out. That's what they have said and make me sad
EDIT: what I want is 1+2. or 1+2+3. not just one of them.
Hellbat drops OP? Nerf the drop. Increase cargo size to 8. There is no fucking reason aside from "lore" to not make a surgical no-nonses adjustment.
To make changes to hellbat's ability in head-on engagement is not warranted. We don't see hellbats dominate in head-on engagements in the pro-scene.
People arguing to nerf hellbats directly, rather than nerfing their ability to be dropped, are simply lying to themselves. They just hate to face hellbats period because their chargelots and speedlings finally have a decent counter from Terrans.
On July 05 2013 10:17 plogamer wrote: Hellbat drops OP? Nerf the drop. Increase cargo size to 8. There is no fucking reason aside from "lore" to not make a surgical no-nonses adjustment.
To make changes to hellbat's ability in head-on engagement is not warranted. We don't see hellbats dominate in head-on engagements in the pro-scene.
People arguing to nerf hellbats directly, rather than nerfing their ability to be dropped, are simply lying to themselves. They just hate to face hellbats period because their chargelots and speedlings finally have a decent counter from Terrans.
30 potential damage at a cost of 100 minerals and no gas is a bit too much.
On July 05 2013 10:17 plogamer wrote: Hellbat drops OP? Nerf the drop. Increase cargo size to 8. There is no fucking reason aside from "lore" to not make a surgical no-nonses adjustment.
To make changes to hellbat's ability in head-on engagement is not warranted. We don't see hellbats dominate in head-on engagements in the pro-scene.
People arguing to nerf hellbats directly, rather than nerfing their ability to be dropped, are simply lying to themselves. They just hate to face hellbats period because their chargelots and speedlings finally have a decent counter from Terrans.
30 potential damage at a cost of 100 minerals and no gas is a bit too much.
Yea. Terran lowest winrate in June. Hellbat's simply do too much damage. How can anyone possible counter them.
On July 05 2013 10:17 plogamer wrote: Hellbat drops OP? Nerf the drop. Increase cargo size to 8. There is no fucking reason aside from "lore" to not make a surgical no-nonses adjustment.
To make changes to hellbat's ability in head-on engagement is not warranted. We don't see hellbats dominate in head-on engagements in the pro-scene.
People arguing to nerf hellbats directly, rather than nerfing their ability to be dropped, are simply lying to themselves. They just hate to face hellbats period because their chargelots and speedlings finally have a decent counter from Terrans.
But the thing is that
On July 04 2013 23:55 Big J wrote:
I don't know but the main problem doesn't seem to be their worker killing to me. Sure they sometimes just win games accidently like that and it's annoying. However, what I think is more problematic is how dropping them onto anything makes them good vs that. E.g. Bomber vs Keen was not decided by hellbats grilling SCVs but by hellbats grilling marines and marauders. Or that video of Innovation vs I-dont-know where Innovation didn't lose a single unit. He didn't drop the SCVs, he just killed the army with the hellbat drops.
I'd say that is the problem. Hellbat+medivac is a counter to (nearly) anything on the ground for as long as the medivacs reach it. It makes hellbat drops so hard to defend, as it is not clear what to defend, the opponent can just kill anything that is not overpowering the hellbat/medivac combo.
This. hellbat/medivac combo is too cost effective in EARLY GAME.
On July 05 2013 10:17 plogamer wrote: Hellbat drops OP? Nerf the drop. Increase cargo size to 8. There is no fucking reason aside from "lore" to not make a surgical no-nonses adjustment.
To make changes to hellbat's ability in head-on engagement is not warranted. We don't see hellbats dominate in head-on engagements in the pro-scene.
People arguing to nerf hellbats directly, rather than nerfing their ability to be dropped, are simply lying to themselves. They just hate to face hellbats period because their chargelots and speedlings finally have a decent counter from Terrans.
30 potential damage at a cost of 100 minerals and no gas is a bit too much.
Atleast your cat is out of the bag.
This thread is about hellbat-drops. You want to discuss hellbats only, go make a separate thread.
On July 05 2013 10:17 plogamer wrote: Hellbat drops OP? Nerf the drop. Increase cargo size to 8. There is no fucking reason aside from "lore" to not make a surgical no-nonses adjustment.
To make changes to hellbat's ability in head-on engagement is not warranted. We don't see hellbats dominate in head-on engagements in the pro-scene.
People arguing to nerf hellbats directly, rather than nerfing their ability to be dropped, are simply lying to themselves. They just hate to face hellbats period because their chargelots and speedlings finally have a decent counter from Terrans.
30 potential damage at a cost of 100 minerals and no gas is a bit too much.
Atleast your cat is out of the bag.
This thread is about hellbat-drops. You want to discuss hellbats only, go make a separate thread.
Ok... ppl come here.http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=416744¤tpage=45#895
EDIT the above linked thread is older. And I think that is still in the drop play issue? because hellbat can be healed and must be with medivac all the time. and hellbats have been really cost effective because when dropped they just don't die because of medivac support. And even if you just drop hellbat and not heal it, it still kills enough to be cost effective
On July 05 2013 10:17 plogamer wrote: Hellbat drops OP? Nerf the drop. Increase cargo size to 8. There is no fucking reason aside from "lore" to not make a surgical no-nonses adjustment.
To make changes to hellbat's ability in head-on engagement is not warranted. We don't see hellbats dominate in head-on engagements in the pro-scene.
People arguing to nerf hellbats directly, rather than nerfing their ability to be dropped, are simply lying to themselves. They just hate to face hellbats period because their chargelots and speedlings finally have a decent counter from Terrans.
30 potential damage at a cost of 100 minerals and no gas is a bit too much.
Atleast your cat is out of the bag.
This thread is about hellbat-drops. You want to discuss hellbats only, go make a separate thread.
Rather than balance hellbat drops, Blizzard can just kill hellbat drops.
Remove and the hellbat transformation upgrade, make it built in. Hellions will be like Vikings now. 1 unit-name, 2 modes right from production. Add a debuff called "incompatibility"; since the new transformation is a recent tech in SC2 lore, hellions in battle transformation (hellbat) cannot be loaded into medivacs.
On July 05 2013 11:46 plogamer wrote: Rather than balance hellbat drops, Blizzard can just kill hellbat drops.
Remove and the hellbat transformation upgrade, make it built in. Hellions will be like Vikings now. 1 unit-name, 2 modes right from production. Add a debuff called "incompatibility"; since the new transformation is a recent tech in SC2 lore, hellions in battle transformation (hellbat) cannot be loaded into medivacs.
That sounds ok in balance but you really don't want to see ANY hellbat drop plays in other match ups? there is no ground unit that cannot be loaded and the debuff is very annoying. I know that it can't go in to the bunker (once it could) but that is just too much isn't it?
I'm pretty sure making hellbat 18 +4 light at the start (to 3 shots SCV but not other workers) and give it back with some costs in the mid-late game would be fine (least nerf)?
On July 05 2013 09:31 jkim91 wrote: Remove the bio tag as a start. It doesn't make sense how a mech unit can be healed at no additional cost, while repair at a cost DOES make sense.
It won't help. Terrans will start to just drop hellbats and fly away to bring next hellbats. Its only 200 minerals and can easily do 1000+ mineral damage.
Removing light damage bonus and making it upgrade is a good start.
My 2 ideas for balance: 1. Make hellbats armored. TvT bio vs mech: Marauders can deal with hellbats appropriately. Initial hellbat drops aren't really the issue, it's the fact that even if you hold them off (as a bio player), you are still behind due to the hellbat being too strong in a mech composition. Pure hellbat would be discouraged in the early game as defense, since hellbats would not defend well against hellbats due to their bonus vs light being irrelevant. Every hellbat drop in a hellbat drop vs hellbat early game would essentially be game ending due to the inability to defend. PvT: Stalkers deal more handily with hellbats with their bonus vs armored. Immortals deal with early mech pushes better. ZvT: Spines deal more handily with hellbats with their bonus vs armored. Banelings/ hellions wouldn't deal with hellbats as cleanly,though. 2. Go through with the BFH change. Remove the trasformation upgrade to allow Hellions to transform into the weaker early game hellbats. Perhaps would not be as broken as early HOTS because hellbats wouldn't be as strong (vs lings, as this change would most notably affect ZvT)
On July 05 2013 09:31 jkim91 wrote: Remove the bio tag as a start. It doesn't make sense how a mech unit can be healed at no additional cost, while repair at a cost DOES make sense.
It won't help. Terrans will start to just drop hellbats and fly away to bring next hellbats. Its only 200 minerals and can easily do 1000+ mineral damage.
Removing light damage bonus and making it upgrade is a good start.
But removing ALL light dmg is not good
1. (least supported argument) It is inconsistent with hellion which has some +light dmg and IPI upgrade gives more.
2. (some people and MY favorite!) adjusting dmg to 18+4light will only 3 shots SCV but not other workers. and IPI upgrade of course gives the dmg back.
I actuall wants BOTH dmg nerf and bio tag removed for the firebat sake (poor firebat. he didn't do nothing wrong but to die in front line ) but I shall settle for dmg nerf for now. JUST FOR NOW,
On July 05 2013 12:01 qGSkipper wrote: My 2 ideas for balance: 1. Make hellbats armored. TvT bio vs mech: Marauders can deal with hellbats appropriately. Initial hellbat drops aren't really the issue, it's the fact that even if you hold them off (as a bio player), you are still behind due to the hellbat being too strong in a mech composition. Pure hellbat would be discouraged in the early game as defense, since hellbats would not defend well against hellbats due to their bonus vs light being irrelevant. Every hellbat drop in a hellbat drop vs hellbat early game would essentially be game ending due to the inability to defend. PvT: Stalkers deal more handily with hellbats with their bonus vs armored. ZvT: Spines deal more handily with hellbats with their bonus vs armored. Banelings/ hellions wouldn't deal with hellbats as cleanly,though. 2. Go through with the BFH change. Remove the trasformation upgrade to allow Hellions to transform into the weaker early game hellbats. Perhaps would not be as broken as early HOTS because hellbats wouldn't be as strong (vs lings, as this change would most notably affect ZvT)
1. This nerf will make effect on not only TvT but other match ups (as you have mentioned) that are relatively ok (if no 2 gets done). it will make ok with TvT but will make terran mech cry in late PvT because every single unit will die out by immortals. and zergs will die out too quickly in TvZ for they don't have UNIT with +armor (after inferstor nerf.).
2. My suggestion! +10^10^10! but maybe making transformation 50/50 60s, just to stop hellion runby and transform straight away as soon as factory finishes. I think we should adjust transformation time as well. 4s is just too long to be useful. 2~3 game second maybe?
On July 05 2013 12:01 qGSkipper wrote: My 2 ideas for balance: 1. Make hellbats armored. TvT bio vs mech: Marauders can deal with hellbats appropriately. Initial hellbat drops aren't really the issue, it's the fact that even if you hold them off (as a bio player), you are still behind due to the hellbat being too strong in a mech composition. Pure hellbat would be discouraged in the early game as defense, since hellbats would not defend well against hellbats due to their bonus vs light being irrelevant. Every hellbat drop in a hellbat drop vs hellbat early game would essentially be game ending due to the inability to defend. PvT: Stalkers deal more handily with hellbats with their bonus vs armored. ZvT: Spines deal more handily with hellbats with their bonus vs armored. Banelings/ hellions wouldn't deal with hellbats as cleanly,though. 2. Go through with the BFH change. Remove the trasformation upgrade to allow Hellions to transform into the weaker early game hellbats. Perhaps would not be as broken as early HOTS because hellbats wouldn't be as strong (vs lings, as this change would most notably affect ZvT)
I'm sorry but nobody wants to open marauders to defend drops of any kind. The armoured change has the effect of making hellbats even more atrocious early game tvt since hellion openers; which are very common for map control and defence are going to be even more terrible to defend dedicated 1 base hellbat builds. Reactor expands with marine/hellion pressure into hellbat drops/mech will still be superior vs dedicated bio builds as mech won't really be in that much weaker of a position in lategame. This makes the build order choices in tvt MUCH more coinflippy.
So to make TVT even more gay your essentially ending it with whoever drops hellbats the fastest since its going to be even more impossible to defend with tech builds..
This makes hellbat marines also incredibly powerful in tvz as hellbats will now tank 7 banes vs 4. I dont think we would ever see any ling bane play from this point forward as it would literally be impossible to deal with that composition efficiently at all.
Make hellbats require the transformation upgrade or blue flame I dont care, but don't make them armored please ><
Edit: Actually another thought, in mirror hellbat builds not too much would change if people threw a tech lab on the idle rax and started pumping a pair of rauders to defend, maybe there would be additional damage done but I think in non mirror tech builds things would be pretty silly.
Can we not make them cost gas, while raising the cost of the Transformation Servos upgrade?
This way Terrans can't crank it out at crazy rates, and if they want to get hellbats without investing gas for each hellbat they have to do an expensive research.
On July 05 2013 12:49 xAdra wrote: Can we not make them cost gas, while raising the cost of the Transformation Servos upgrade?
This way Terrans can't crank it out at crazy rates, and if they want to get hellbats without investing gas for each hellbat they have to do an expensive research.
Gahhh, stop trying to nerf hellbats without enough evidence that hellbats are OP by themselves.
I think the best option would be to not allow hellbats to be built from the factory. Therefore the only way you could obtain hellbats in the game is by getting the armory and then the transformation servos upgrade. Either that or just tone down the damage a bit until blue flame, but I believe the first idea is much better.
On July 05 2013 11:46 plogamer wrote: Rather than balance hellbat drops, Blizzard can just kill hellbat drops.
Remove and the hellbat transformation upgrade, make it built in. Hellions will be like Vikings now. 1 unit-name, 2 modes right from production. Add a debuff called "incompatibility"; since the new transformation is a recent tech in SC2 lore, hellions in battle transformation (hellbat) cannot be loaded into medivacs.
Hellbats are too strong in normal fights too buddy. Zealots and marine tank just flat-out die when there are hellbats mixed in. Also, hellbat marauder pushes (I believe Polt did one or two during MLG) versus Zerg are incredibly strong. Dropping them requires some micro, but using them in engagements requires roughly 0. Zealots might actually require more micro than hellbats. They are both incredibly a-movish. Hellbats are the shittiest designed units out there. Whoever thought of them as a new unit is a total idiot. Plus, they are incredibly tanky and do a ton of damage. Shit, I see hellbats trolling SIEGE tanks. It's just a horribly made unit. BUT THEN, THEY REQUIRE ONLY MINERALS, LOL!
Just remove the damn bio tag and see were we are from there.
To all those that say that might be problematic because of the lower dmg done by the archon: Toss players would actually be able to storm Hellbats and do lasting dmg. I am quite sure that over all Hellbats would not be harder to deal with in PvT then right now.
I also think over all the proposed banshee change was also not that bad, considering the easier detection for all races. Maybe they could also play with the energy cost of cloak. In the end the banshee should be a lower investment and have a lower dmg potential. Right now the harassment options not seem to be balanced.
On July 05 2013 12:01 qGSkipper wrote: My 2 ideas for balance: 1. Make hellbats armored. TvT bio vs mech: Marauders can deal with hellbats appropriately. Initial hellbat drops aren't really the issue, it's the fact that even if you hold them off (as a bio player), you are still behind due to the hellbat being too strong in a mech composition. Pure hellbat would be discouraged in the early game as defense, since hellbats would not defend well against hellbats due to their bonus vs light being irrelevant. Every hellbat drop in a hellbat drop vs hellbat early game would essentially be game ending due to the inability to defend. PvT: Stalkers deal more handily with hellbats with their bonus vs armored. ZvT: Spines deal more handily with hellbats with their bonus vs armored. Banelings/ hellions wouldn't deal with hellbats as cleanly,though. 2. Go through with the BFH change. Remove the trasformation upgrade to allow Hellions to transform into the weaker early game hellbats. Perhaps would not be as broken as early HOTS because hellbats wouldn't be as strong (vs lings, as this change would most notably affect ZvT)
I'm sorry but nobody wants to open marauders to defend drops of any kind. The armoured change has the effect of making hellbats even more atrocious early game tvt since hellion openers; which are very common for map control and defence are going to be even more terrible to defend dedicated 1 base hellbat builds. Reactor expands with marine/hellion pressure into hellbat drops/mech will still be superior vs dedicated bio builds as mech won't really be in that much weaker of a position in lategame. This makes the build order choices in tvt MUCH more coinflippy.
So to make TVT even more gay your essentially ending it with whoever drops hellbats the fastest since its going to be even more impossible to defend with tech builds..
This makes hellbat marines also incredibly powerful in tvz as hellbats will now tank 7 banes vs 4. I dont think we would ever see any ling bane play from this point forward as it would literally be impossible to deal with that composition efficiently at all.
Make hellbats require the transformation upgrade or blue flame I dont care, but don't make them armored please ><
Edit: Actually another thought, in mirror hellbat builds not too much would change if people threw a tech lab on the idle rax and started pumping a pair of rauders to defend, maybe there would be additional damage done but I think in non mirror tech builds things would be pretty silly.
... Armored hellbats would kill mech TvT. Marauders would completely slaughter them, I agree that it wouldnt do much to change the early game effectiveness but I think you are completely wrong about the effects armor would have.
It would tanks way better vs hellbats too. Way, way way.
change or remove the speedvac not the hellbats. fast medivac were completely unwarranted to begin with. good players didnt need it in WOL, not sure where did the blizzards "drops were useless" came from
Since Koreans have ALREADY ADAPTED to deal with MEDIVAC Hellbat, WTF are people still positing here with more and more ridiculous "balancing" solutions to as far as a rollback to WoL features?
Seriously, what is the point of PAYING FOR THE SAME GAME?! Single Player Campaign? Then why you on this thread?
On July 05 2013 16:36 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Wow so much hate...
Since Koreans have ALREADY ADAPTED to deal with MEDIVAC Hellbat, WTF are people still positing here with more and more ridiculous "balancing" solutions to as far as a rollback to WoL features?
Seriously, what is the point of PAYING FOR THE SAME GAME?! Single Player Campaign? Then why you on this thread?
We didn't say koreans have failed to adapt to deal with hellbat drop. But the thing is that they deal hellbat drop with hellbat drop. Hellbats everywhere~~~ is that why someone said we are playing hellbatcraft :p
Hellbat drops raise the new standard bearer for cost efficiency in harassment as a general practice in this game, for all races, to a really absurd level. Oracles kind of do, as well, but they seem to be okay and have some real backlash as far as their relevance into the late game goes. The cost efficiency of this kind of mineral dumping, derived from the scale of effects (even forcing people to pull away from their mining does, typically, an equivalent if not higher amount of economic damage through delayed mining, than the hellions themselves cost. And this is not to say that, even though the drop is 'shut down' that everything, or anything is even lost.)
When you compare the effectiveness, let alone the cost effectiveness, of hellbat drops to other forms of dropping and harassment of peoples mineral lines.. these are the new kid on the block, and by all means they seem to be doing a bang-up job. Short of the constant barrage of games that we as fans of starcraft are regularly experiencing, and have been since the beta - we can think about a few other hallmarks that separate this from most comparable harasses.
1) Scouting hellbat drops and preparing for and otherwise reacting to them seems to achieve less than what takes place when people scout the other forms of mineral line harass, which can actually be shut down. The grace withi which players can scout and shut down other harassments is not merely the product of experience with those circumstances, but rather a plain and pitiful display of how extreme this harass is, and how extreme we have to be, and appear - by contrast to our handling of other harassments, to deal with these. More damage is taken by the harassed, and less is lost by the harassing player.
2) Most mineral line harassments are comprised of units that generally aren't good for later game army compositions. And these units require gas and out of the way tech. Subsequently, the Terran players are happier to throw away hellbats than most players are with any of their worker line harassing units.
3) The apm required to execute vs dealing with hellbat drops is imbalanced. While I agree that this kind of difference is not fundamentally corrosive to the game, or representative of a violation of some axiom of criteria for balance that has to exist - and indeed, there are many examples in the game already where this kind of imbalance is well accepted and not a screaming issue of balance (See: I am clearly not talking about the difference in apm required to use widow mines vs dealing with them) I still think that it is worth taking into account, especially from this lens of comparison to other worker line harassments, which tend to require less apm to deal with.
4) The resources, impact to ones own momentum, that has to be taken in stride to actually be safe against the tested threat of hellbat drops is pretty silly compared to most mineral line harassments at large, and even more so when we consider the investments of resources required (and the blow to momentum) to execute various mineral line harassments, contrasted by the resources committed to a mere hellbat drop. While I might drop spores in every mineral line to shut down, say, banshees, or phoenixes, or oracles; a spore and a spine at each mineral line is a standard and minimal response to ones inclination to actually be safe against one medivac with two hellbats in it. This includes the granted presence of a queen or two. Just look at how obtuse it is to see terrans building a bunker and a turret next to each other in or around their mineral lines, or zergs doing the same with spores and spines. Since when was this how we dealt with harass? Cannons in the mineral line has gone from being a newb cliche to a match-up standard? Having to invest in firm static defenses, rather than what we have always done? I'm fine with change, but this seems pretty obviously silly and it is currently in the air, awaiting changes.
In my opinion, there isn't much left to ask about whether hellbat drops are imbalanced. That question was already answered by Blizzard in their efforts to nerf hellbat drops to the degree that they have. The question, then, became; how should we address this issue? We're experiencing the first iteration, a fairly obvious and simple change. But it is pretty clear to the community, and seemingly, still, to David Kim? That more is to be done. Although, I'll confess - it boggles me that they reference hellbat drops as being problematic to TvT while shirking their presence in the other match-ups entirely. I'm serious, it keeps boggling me, everytime I think of it.
There is a lot of dumb balancing that went on with HotS that we are still sorting out. The new unit designs in general seemed to be geared toward helping the game to appeal as a spectator sport, with the inherent valuation of degrees of diversity in what people are watching. Unfotunately, actual game balance seems to have been overlooked in a lot of areas with HotS. Even hearing Blizzard's recent talk about why they think this or that about certain units or desired changes, they seem to speak at least as much about wanting things to be fun for spectators as they do for actually wanting t he game to be balanced. And never in the same breath. I'm sure Blizzard wants to have a balanced game, but I think they are being pretty derpy about a fair few things in HotS, so it's not quite happening.
It's disappointing when you see them trying out random buffs just for the sake of excitement for spectators (warp prism buff, that's the only reasoning I saw.) It's a marked departure from the reserved, hyper- concerned with only balance approach that we could rely on and appreciate out of Blizzard during WoL. Even if things were turbulent, you didn't have shenannigans like this going on, and they made an effort to help people to feel that they were genuinely concerned about balance, and just wanted to be patient - careful. I really don't experience that attitude with Blizzard anymore. I hear loose imitations of those old doctrines, hushed by the astonishing expressions of making changes to the games balance soley out of concerns that have nothing to do with balance. It's bewildering, really.
What's further disappointing about this is that I don't really believe that anything speedvac related makes the game more interesting. Rather, this has promoted a really boring hyperfocus to defending 1-3 bases. People move out on the map less, it seems. There is a very valid paranoia about drop play, from all races, against Terran. Styles like roach hydra in tvz are largely crippled, short of the highest level of play, by the relative ease of executing speedvac drops (note: much swifter and thus better able to exploit boundaries in terrain than drop play ever was) verse the inherent clunkiness of a ground based army which has no real hope of actually shutting down the drops with a note of permanence. This ruins a sense of gameflow where map control can be vied for, and, subsequently, muta ling baane has become the standard in ZvT, leaving our hopes for roach hydra play as.. well, certainly not the most preferred playstyle, according to all the pro starcraft I've been watching - and I do watch a lot.
There are entirely new standards for the meaning and value of drop play for Terran, in all matches. The impromptu doom drop into the main is always a nice way to change up and exploit the false sense of security that any player has over holding off more routine, smaller scale harassment. As much attention as everyone is paying to handling that, you see it laughed at by these random, oh so swift doom drops that, really, there is no reason for Terran not to be doing. Being able to shut down small scale harass effectively, over a variety of circumstances a nd distractions w ithin the game is one thing. Having random doom drops appear as quickly as this - which is quite easy to pull off, given the advantages that Terrans have in map control, through well-executed harassment w/ speedvacs. It just seems like a really ill-considered change to make, so drastically effecting every match-up, and with noone receiving anything as any kind of counterbalance to it.
But, knowing that Blizzard would like for things to be balanced, this is all, ultimately, just a bunch of contextual contemplation that precedes future moments of enhanced balance, which, all the same, we have to be patient in waiting for. Or, at least, I would advise patience ^^
P.S. - The real problem with is the speed boost on medivacs, and the only thing that really shuts the drops down (See: you still lose more mining than in other worker harasses)is the inability for the medivac to be there anymore, or from your killing it. This is one of many reasons why the idea of "roaches" is a really uninformed guess at a solution. Speedvacs, like many changes to the games balance in HotS, were introduced out of concerns for spectator appeal, at least as much as for balance. By my estimate, which is partially informed by Blizzard's own expressions on their intentions for this general array of hots-specific balance changes since conception to present. For some quick examples of the rush work, the non-sensical details which have been especially overlooked in HotS at large, consider this:
A) Hellbats simply are a mechanical unit. They benefit from mechanical upgrades. The damage they take is decreased based on upgrades to their plating. But their damage can be healed by medivacs, which only heal biological units. This is actually a really embarassing detail, if you're willing to take the game seriously enough and to criticize Blizzard for blatantly shoddy, balance-negligent game design.
B) Widow mines splash damage hits everything, above and below ground, except for other widow mines - whether above or below ground. Nowhere in Starcraft 1 or 2 has a unit had some weird and self-convenient dynamic like this, which defies the consistency of the games physics so sharply. It seems like another glossed over, even unconsidered matter. And the almost complete overshadowing of a staple unit like the Siege Tank by the widow mine, unforeseen, but now as an expressed 'concern'. Siege tanks obsolete? Yeah, that's the degree of silliness Blizzard got involved in with HotS.
P.S. 2 - Making changes to the fundamental, consistent dynamics of the game in ways that Blizzard has will necessarily complicate the task of making maps that are considerate of these unique details, some of which.. shall we say, "fly" at odds with the ways in which things typically work - ways which also need to be addressed in map design? And I love me some mapmakers, but realistically, this doesn't merely replace dynamics but complicates them, and I have never met a map maker that was also a pro-gamer. Truly well-designed maps are hard to come by, and I'm sure that is in part due to the high expertise necessary to do this. Not that Blizzard understands this aspect of their game very well at all, from all the maps we've seen come out of them.
On July 05 2013 12:01 qGSkipper wrote: My 2 ideas for balance: 1. Make hellbats armored. TvT bio vs mech: Marauders can deal with hellbats appropriately. Initial hellbat drops aren't really the issue, it's the fact that even if you hold them off (as a bio player), you are still behind due to the hellbat being too strong in a mech composition. Pure hellbat would be discouraged in the early game as defense, since hellbats would not defend well against hellbats due to their bonus vs light being irrelevant. Every hellbat drop in a hellbat drop vs hellbat early game would essentially be game ending due to the inability to defend. PvT: Stalkers deal more handily with hellbats with their bonus vs armored. ZvT: Spines deal more handily with hellbats with their bonus vs armored. Banelings/ hellions wouldn't deal with hellbats as cleanly,though. 2. Go through with the BFH change. Remove the trasformation upgrade to allow Hellions to transform into the weaker early game hellbats. Perhaps would not be as broken as early HOTS because hellbats wouldn't be as strong (vs lings, as this change would most notably affect ZvT)
I'm sorry but nobody wants to open marauders to defend drops of any kind. The armoured change has the effect of making hellbats even more atrocious early game tvt since hellion openers; which are very common for map control and defence are going to be even more terrible to defend dedicated 1 base hellbat builds. Reactor expands with marine/hellion pressure into hellbat drops/mech will still be superior vs dedicated bio builds as mech won't really be in that much weaker of a position in lategame. This makes the build order choices in tvt MUCH more coinflippy.
So to make TVT even more gay your essentially ending it with whoever drops hellbats the fastest since its going to be even more impossible to defend with tech builds..
This makes hellbat marines also incredibly powerful in tvz as hellbats will now tank 7 banes vs 4. I dont think we would ever see any ling bane play from this point forward as it would literally be impossible to deal with that composition efficiently at all.
Make hellbats require the transformation upgrade or blue flame I dont care, but don't make them armored please ><
Edit: Actually another thought, in mirror hellbat builds not too much would change if people threw a tech lab on the idle rax and started pumping a pair of rauders to defend, maybe there would be additional damage done but I think in non mirror tech builds things would be pretty silly.
... Armored hellbats would kill mech TvT. Marauders would completely slaughter them, I agree that it wouldnt do much to change the early game effectiveness but I think you are completely wrong about the effects armor would have.
It would tanks way better vs hellbats too. Way, way way.
While I think tanks should be stronger against hellbats, i agree that giving hellbats the armored tag is not a godd idea, but for a totally different reason : hellions would become weaker to defend hellbats (sice they do +6 damage to light without blue flame) and some builds revolve around defending the first two hellbat drops with 6+ hellions.
if hellbat became armored, it would become even more difficult to defend the first 2 hellbat drops
i think that if hellbats are made non biological (the fact that they are is a joke on its own) then hellbat drops would be easier to deal with because they cant be healed. if a hellbat is in the mineral line and being healed it is hard to take him down. so making him non biological would be a good step.
On July 05 2013 20:57 SCguineapig wrote: i think that if hellbats are made non biological (the fact that they are is a joke on its own) then hellbat drops would be easier to deal with because they cant be healed. if a hellbat is in the mineral line and being healed it is hard to take him down. so making him non biological would be a good step.
1) Once in their mobile suit, they are no different than SCVS, marauder, firebats and marines. In fact using this strict definition, only the reaper and civilians can be healed!
2) That's because folks focus on killing the wrong unit. Take out the medivac, and hellbats are range 2 to zealots.
I know I don't have a lot of technical input on this, but as a viewer I find TvT less interesting to watch in general with just constant hellbat drops.
Not the best argument I know but from a fan of watching the pros play, it puts me off watching TvT in general because I know it'll happen every single game.
*edit* You're awesome Strelok, keep up the amazing games and good luck this season!.
On July 05 2013 21:04 Sargatanas wrote: I know I don't have a lot of technical input on this, but as a viewer I find TvT less interesting to watch in general with just constant hellbat drops.
Not the best argument I know but from a fan of watching the pros play, it puts me off watching TvT in general because I know it'll happen every single game.
*edit* You're awesome Strelok, keep up the amazing games and good luck this season!.
Just bear with it, eventually once Terrans learn to handle it, they'll eventually taper off, no different than when EVERYONE went BFH and cloaked banshee in WoL
On July 05 2013 21:04 Sargatanas wrote: I know I don't have a lot of technical input on this, but as a viewer I find TvT less interesting to watch in general with just constant hellbat drops.
Not the best argument I know but from a fan of watching the pros play, it puts me off watching TvT in general because I know it'll happen every single game.
*edit* You're awesome Strelok, keep up the amazing games and good luck this season!.
Just bear with it, eventually once Terrans learn to handle it, they'll eventually taper off, no different than when EVERYONE went BFH and cloaked banshee in WoL
I hope you're right mate but it just looks to me that hellbat drops are way stronger than any opener Terran had before so I question if/when an answer will be found.
As I have said though I am hardly tip top technical knowledge so I could be way off the mark.
On July 05 2013 16:36 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Wow so much hate...
Since Koreans have ALREADY ADAPTED to deal with MEDIVAC Hellbat, WTF are people still positing here with more and more ridiculous "balancing" solutions to as far as a rollback to WoL features?
Seriously, what is the point of PAYING FOR THE SAME GAME?! Single Player Campaign? Then why you on this thread?
Agree with this, since Korean does fast cloak banshee or 2/4 mines drop to deal with Hellbat drop in TvT, tons of people here are just whining -_-
On July 05 2013 16:36 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Wow so much hate...
Since Koreans have ALREADY ADAPTED to deal with MEDIVAC Hellbat, WTF are people still positing here with more and more ridiculous "balancing" solutions to as far as a rollback to WoL features?
Seriously, what is the point of PAYING FOR THE SAME GAME?! Single Player Campaign? Then why you on this thread?
Agree with this, since Korean does fast cloak banshee or 2/4 mines drop to deal with Hellbat drop in TvT, tons of people here are just whining -_-
And people won't stop until we have the wol terran back. There is protoss turtle, zerg turtle, but terrans don't turtle. People want the wol terran turtle 3 CC only style back asap..
Hellbat drops raise the new standard bearer for cost efficiency in harassment as a general practice in this game, for all races, to a really absurd level. Oracles kind of do, as well, but they seem to be okay and have some real backlash as far as their relevance into the late game goes. The cost efficiency of this kind of mineral dumping, derived from the scale of effects (even forcing people to pull away from their mining does, typically, an equivalent if not higher amount of economic damage through delayed mining, than the hellions themselves cost. And this is not to say that, even though the drop is 'shut down' that everything, or anything is even lost.
When you compare the effectiveness, let alone the cost effectiveness, of hellbat drops to other forms of dropping and harassment of peoples mineral lines.. these are the new kid on the block, and by all means they seem to be doing a bang-up job. Short of the constant barrage of games that we as fans of starcraft are regularly experiencing, and have been since the beta - we can think about a few other hallmarks that separate this from most comparable harasses.
1) Scouting hellbat drops and preparing for and otherwise reacting to them seems to achieve less than what takes place when people scout the other forms of mineral line harass, which can actually be shut down. The grace withi which players can scout and shut down other harassments is not merely the product of experience with those circumstances, but rather a plain and pitiful display of how extreme this harass is, and how extreme we have to be, and appear - by contrast to our handling of other harassments, to deal with these. More damage is taken by the harassed, and less is lost by the harassing player.
2) Most mineral line harassments are comprised of units that generally aren't good for later game army compositions. And these units require gas and out of the way tech. Subsequently, the Terran players are happier to throw away hellbats than most players are with any of their worker line harassing units.
3) The apm required to execute vs dealing with hellbat drops is imbalanced. While I agree that this kind of difference is not fundamentally corrosive to the game, or representative of a violation of some axiom of criteria for balance that has to exist - and indeed, there are many examples in the game already where this kind of imbalance is well accepted and not a screaming issue of balance (See: I am clearly not talking about the difference in apm required to use widow mines vs dealing with them) I still think that it is worth taking into account, especially from this lens of comparison to other worker line harassments, which tend to require less apm to deal with.
4) The resources, impact to ones own momentum, that has to be taken in stride to actually be safe against the tested threat of hellbat drops is pretty silly compared to most mineral line harassments at large, and even more so when we consider the investments of resources required (and the blow to momentum) to execute various mineral line harassments, contrasted by the resources committed to a mere hellbat drop. While I might drop spores in every mineral line to shut down, say, banshees, or phoenixes, or oracles; a spore and a spine at each mineral line is a standard and minimal response to ones inclination to actually be safe against one medivac with two hellbats in it. This includes the granted presence of a queen or two. Just look at how obtuse it is to see terrans building a bunker and a turret next to each other in or around their mineral lines, or zergs doing the same with spores and spines. Since when was this how we dealt with harass? Cannons in the mineral line has gone from being a newb cliche to a match-up standard? Having to invest in firm static defenses, rather than what we have always done? I'm fine with change, but this seems pretty obviously silly and it is currently in the air, awaiting changes.
In my opinion, there isn't much left to ask about whether hellbat drops are imbalanced. That question was already answered by Blizzard in their efforts to nerf hellbat drops to the degree that they have. The question, then, became; how should we address this issue? We're experiencing the first iteration, a fairly obvious and simple change. But it is pretty clear to the community, and seemingly, still, to David Kim? That more is to be done. Although, I'll confess - it boggles me that they reference hellbat drops as being problematic to TvT while shirking their presence in the other match-ups entirely. I'm serious, it keeps boggling me, everytime I think of it.
There is a lot of dumb balancing that went on with HotS that we are still sorting out. The new unit designs in general seemed to be geared toward helping the game to appeal as a spectator sport, with the inherent valuation of degrees of diversity in what people are watching. Unfotunately, actual game balance seems to have been overlooked in a lot of areas with HotS. Even hearing Blizzard's recent talk about why they think this or that about certain units or desired changes, they seem to speak at least as much about wanting things to be fun for spectators as they do for actually wanting t he game to be balanced. And never in the same breath. I'm sure Blizzard wants to have a balanced game, but I think they are being pretty derpy about a fair few things in HotS, so it's not quite happening.
It's disappointing when you see them trying out random buffs just for the sake of excitement for spectators (warp prism buff, that's the only reasoning I saw.) It's a marked departure from the reserved, hyper- concerned with only balance approach that we could rely on and appreciate out of Blizzard during WoL. Even if things were turbulent, you didn't have shenannigans like this going on, and they made an effort to help people to feel that they were genuinely concerned about balance, and just wanted to be patient - careful. I really don't experience that attitude with Blizzard anymore. I hear loose imitations of those old doctrines, hushed by the astonishing expressions of making changes to the games balance soley out of concerns that have nothing to do with balance. It's bewildering, really.
What's further disappointing about this is that I don't really believe that anything speedvac related makes the game more interesting. Rather, this has promoted a really boring hyperfocus to defending 1-3 bases. People move out on the map less, it seems. There is a very valid paranoia about drop play, from all races, against Terran. Styles like roach hydra in tvz are largely crippled, short of the highest level of play, by the relative ease of executing speedvac drops (note: much swifter and thus better able to exploit boundaries in terrain than drop play ever was) verse the inherent clunkiness of a ground based army which has no real hope of actually shutting down the drops with a note of permanence. This ruins a sense of gameflow where map control can be vied for, and, subsequently, muta ling baane has become the standard in ZvT, leaving our hopes for roach hydra play as.. well, certainly not the most preferred playstyle, according to all the pro starcraft I've been watching - and I do watch a lot.
There are entirely new standards for the meaning and value of drop play for Terran, in all matches. The impromptu doom drop into the main is always a nice way to change up and exploit the false sense of security that any player has over holding off more routine, smaller scale harassment. As much attention as everyone is paying to handling that, you see it laughed at by these random, oh so swift doom drops that, really, there is no reason for Terran not to be doing. Being able to shut down small scale harass effectively, over a variety of circumstances a nd distractions w ithin the game is one thing. Having random doom drops appear as quickly as this - which is quite easy to pull off, given the advantages that Terrans have in map control, through well-executed harassment w/ speedvacs. It just seems like a really ill-considered change to make, so drastically effecting every match-up, and with noone receiving anything as any kind of counterbalance to it.
But, knowing that Blizzard would like for things to be balanced, this is all, ultimately, just a bunch of contextual contemplation that precedes future moments of enhanced balance, which, all the same, we have to be patient in waiting for. Or, at least, I would advise patience ^^
P.S. - The real problem with is the speed boost on medivacs, and the only thing that really shuts the drops down (See: you still lose more mining than in other worker harasses)is the inability for the medivac to be there anymore, or from your killing it. This is one of many reasons why the idea of "roaches" is a really uninformed guess at a solution. Speedvacs, like many changes to the games balance in HotS, were introduced out of concerns for spectator appeal, at least as much as for balance. By my estimate, which is partially informed by Blizzard's own expressions on their intentions for this general array of hots-specific balance changes since conception to present. For some quick examples of the rush work, the non-sensical details which have been especially overlooked in HotS at large, consider this:
A) Hellbats simply are a mechanical unit. They benefit from mechanical upgrades. The damage they take is decreased based on upgrades to their plating. But their damage can be healed by medivacs, which only heal biological units. This is actually a really embarassing detail, if you're willing to take the game seriously enough and to criticize Blizzard for blatantly shoddy, balance-negligent game design.
B) Widow mines splash damage hits everything, above and below ground, except for other widow mines - whether above or below ground. Nowhere in Starcraft 1 or 2 has a unit had some weird and self-convenient dynamic like this, which defies the consistency of the games physics so sharply. It seems like another glossed over, even unconsidered matter. And the almost complete overshadowing of a staple unit like the Siege Tank by the widow mine, unforeseen, but now as an expressed 'concern'. Siege tanks obsolete? Yeah, that's the degree of silliness Blizzard got involved in with HotS.
P.S. 2 - Making changes to the fundamental, consistent dynamics of the game in ways that Blizzard has will necessarily complicate the task of making maps that are considerate of these unique details, some of which.. shall we say, "fly" at odds with the ways in which things typically work - ways which also need to be addressed in map design? And I love me some mapmakers, but realistically, this doesn't merely replace dynamics but complicates them, and I have never met a map maker that was also a pro-gamer. Truly well-designed maps are hard to come by, and I'm sure that is in part due to the high expertise necessary to do this. Not that Blizzard understands this aspect of their game very well at all, from all the maps we've seen come out of them.
a great post with so many good points, also very well written
really there is nothing i couldnt agree with in there especially liked how you pointed out that blizzards intent to improve gameplay by overbuffing drops is in many ways actually forcing certain boring playstyles, discourages movement on the map, negates positional play and invalidates some playstyles
On July 05 2013 16:36 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Wow so much hate...
Since Koreans have ALREADY ADAPTED to deal with MEDIVAC Hellbat, WTF are people still positing here with more and more ridiculous "balancing" solutions to as far as a rollback to WoL features?
Seriously, what is the point of PAYING FOR THE SAME GAME?! Single Player Campaign? Then why you on this thread?
Agree with this, since Korean does fast cloak banshee or 2/4 mines drop to deal with Hellbat drop in TvT, tons of people here are just whining -_-
And people won't stop until we have the wol terran back. There is protoss turtle, zerg turtle, but terrans don't turtle. People want the wol terran turtle 3 CC only style back asap..
Cuz Terran used to be a man race. By God did I love the Zerg and Protoss tears. Honestly, nerf Protoss. The amount of allins they have is mind-fregin-boggling. It's impossible to scout a Protoss 100% and at least 5% of my play is guesswork. Take away the Oracle and I won't do any hellbat drops I promise.
On July 05 2013 12:01 qGSkipper wrote: My 2 ideas for balance: 1. Make hellbats armored. TvT bio vs mech: Marauders can deal with hellbats appropriately. Initial hellbat drops aren't really the issue, it's the fact that even if you hold them off (as a bio player), you are still behind due to the hellbat being too strong in a mech composition. Pure hellbat would be discouraged in the early game as defense, since hellbats would not defend well against hellbats due to their bonus vs light being irrelevant. Every hellbat drop in a hellbat drop vs hellbat early game would essentially be game ending due to the inability to defend. PvT: Stalkers deal more handily with hellbats with their bonus vs armored. ZvT: Spines deal more handily with hellbats with their bonus vs armored. Banelings/ hellions wouldn't deal with hellbats as cleanly,though. 2. Go through with the BFH change. Remove the trasformation upgrade to allow Hellions to transform into the weaker early game hellbats. Perhaps would not be as broken as early HOTS because hellbats wouldn't be as strong (vs lings, as this change would most notably affect ZvT)
I'm sorry but nobody wants to open marauders to defend drops of any kind. The armoured change has the effect of making hellbats even more atrocious early game tvt since hellion openers; which are very common for map control and defence are going to be even more terrible to defend dedicated 1 base hellbat builds. Reactor expands with marine/hellion pressure into hellbat drops/mech will still be superior vs dedicated bio builds as mech won't really be in that much weaker of a position in lategame. This makes the build order choices in tvt MUCH more coinflippy.
So to make TVT even more gay your essentially ending it with whoever drops hellbats the fastest since its going to be even more impossible to defend with tech builds..
This makes hellbat marines also incredibly powerful in tvz as hellbats will now tank 7 banes vs 4. I dont think we would ever see any ling bane play from this point forward as it would literally be impossible to deal with that composition efficiently at all.
Make hellbats require the transformation upgrade or blue flame I dont care, but don't make them armored please ><
Edit: Actually another thought, in mirror hellbat builds not too much would change if people threw a tech lab on the idle rax and started pumping a pair of rauders to defend, maybe there would be additional damage done but I think in non mirror tech builds things would be pretty silly.
... Armored hellbats would kill mech TvT. Marauders would completely slaughter them, I agree that it wouldnt do much to change the early game effectiveness but I think you are completely wrong about the effects armor would have.
It would tanks way better vs hellbats too. Way, way way.
Tanks and marauders, especially marauders, need to do better vs hellbats. In WoL TvT, if tanks were unsieged with hellion support, a mech player would be severely punished. In HoTs, a mech player can siege 1-2 seconds late, or even purposely siege "late", using their hellbats to tank as they advance their tanks during the initial stages of an engagement. I don't know if marauders would destroy hellbats if they were armored, but they definitely need to do better than they currently do. Safe, defensive tank openings would perform more consistently against hellbat drops, which should be the case if you are opening very defensive. Of course, it shouldn't be an auto defense, but it should at least be less coinflippy. Currently, tanks can't really compete with hellbat drops. I'm just throwing out ideas, I know my suggestion isn't perfect :D.
how about make scvs have a +x armor to HELLBATS in general, and maybe the blue flame upgrade can cancel it out so it takes more shots early on but mid to late game can still give the harassment potential in tvt.
On July 05 2013 12:01 qGSkipper wrote: My 2 ideas for balance: 1. Make hellbats armored. TvT bio vs mech: Marauders can deal with hellbats appropriately. Initial hellbat drops aren't really the issue, it's the fact that even if you hold them off (as a bio player), you are still behind due to the hellbat being too strong in a mech composition. Pure hellbat would be discouraged in the early game as defense, since hellbats would not defend well against hellbats due to their bonus vs light being irrelevant. Every hellbat drop in a hellbat drop vs hellbat early game would essentially be game ending due to the inability to defend. PvT: Stalkers deal more handily with hellbats with their bonus vs armored. ZvT: Spines deal more handily with hellbats with their bonus vs armored. Banelings/ hellions wouldn't deal with hellbats as cleanly,though. 2. Go through with the BFH change. Remove the trasformation upgrade to allow Hellions to transform into the weaker early game hellbats. Perhaps would not be as broken as early HOTS because hellbats wouldn't be as strong (vs lings, as this change would most notably affect ZvT)
I'm sorry but nobody wants to open marauders to defend drops of any kind. The armoured change has the effect of making hellbats even more atrocious early game tvt since hellion openers; which are very common for map control and defence are going to be even more terrible to defend dedicated 1 base hellbat builds. Reactor expands with marine/hellion pressure into hellbat drops/mech will still be superior vs dedicated bio builds as mech won't really be in that much weaker of a position in lategame. This makes the build order choices in tvt MUCH more coinflippy.
So to make TVT even more gay your essentially ending it with whoever drops hellbats the fastest since its going to be even more impossible to defend with tech builds..
This makes hellbat marines also incredibly powerful in tvz as hellbats will now tank 7 banes vs 4. I dont think we would ever see any ling bane play from this point forward as it would literally be impossible to deal with that composition efficiently at all.
Make hellbats require the transformation upgrade or blue flame I dont care, but don't make them armored please ><
Edit: Actually another thought, in mirror hellbat builds not too much would change if people threw a tech lab on the idle rax and started pumping a pair of rauders to defend, maybe there would be additional damage done but I think in non mirror tech builds things would be pretty silly.
... Armored hellbats would kill mech TvT. Marauders would completely slaughter them, I agree that it wouldnt do much to change the early game effectiveness but I think you are completely wrong about the effects armor would have.
It would tanks way better vs hellbats too. Way, way way.
Tanks and marauders, especially marauders, need to do better vs hellbats. In WoL TvT, if tanks were unsieged with hellion support, a mech player would be severely punished. In HoTs, a mech player can siege 1-2 seconds late, or even purposely siege "late", using their hellbats to tank as they advance their tanks during the initial stages of an engagement. I don't know if marauders would destroy hellbats if they were armored, but they definitely need to do better than they currently do. Safe, defensive tank openings would perform more consistently against hellbat drops, which should be the case if you are opening very defensive. Of course, it shouldn't be an auto defense, but it should at least be less coinflippy. Currently, tanks can't really compete with hellbat drops. I'm just throwing out ideas, I know my suggestion isn't perfect :D.
My thinking regarding late game mech would be that hellbats would no longer be the tanking unit for mech based compositions, it would go back to wol style with hellions in front to tank with hellbats still loaded into medivacs. Hellbats would basically die to half as many shots of marauder compositions and would force better mech positional play around maxed pushes which I think would be a good thing, but I dont think that as a late game composition a well played mech would be any worse then it is right now, esp with a raven or two just that the composition would change against pure rauder medivac.
I still dont like having to make tanks in tvt to defend hellbats as you still forfeit map presence and may not even get a window to apply counter pressure if you wanted to depending on the build.
I think later hellbats or a tweak to the hellbat itself is required right now, for what it does in a medivac is basically always a good drop. You kill two scvs, they pull, your hellbats are worth it. If later they make three turrets to force you to commit your medivac, its worth it. The problem is the investment for what it does is still too little for getting an armory and a starport. Its not like hellbats in medivacs are a terrible defensive unit either, as dropped onto armies or seiged tanks they shit all over everything.
I think for TvT it would be nice to have hellbats armored instead of light. However in TvZ they would suddenly be better against banelings, and in TvP they would be severely nerfed, with stalkers dealing more damage to them, and immortals slaughtering them.
On July 06 2013 03:19 Sissors wrote: I think for TvT it would be nice to have hellbats armored instead of light. However in TvZ they would suddenly be better against banelings, and in TvP they would be severely nerfed, with stalkers dealing more damage to them, and immortals slaughtering them.
On July 05 2013 12:01 qGSkipper wrote: My 2 ideas for balance: 1. Make hellbats armored. TvT bio vs mech: Marauders can deal with hellbats appropriately. Initial hellbat drops aren't really the issue, it's the fact that even if you hold them off (as a bio player), you are still behind due to the hellbat being too strong in a mech composition. Pure hellbat would be discouraged in the early game as defense, since hellbats would not defend well against hellbats due to their bonus vs light being irrelevant. Every hellbat drop in a hellbat drop vs hellbat early game would essentially be game ending due to the inability to defend. PvT: Stalkers deal more handily with hellbats with their bonus vs armored. ZvT: Spines deal more handily with hellbats with their bonus vs armored. Banelings/ hellions wouldn't deal with hellbats as cleanly,though. 2. Go through with the BFH change. Remove the trasformation upgrade to allow Hellions to transform into the weaker early game hellbats. Perhaps would not be as broken as early HOTS because hellbats wouldn't be as strong (vs lings, as this change would most notably affect ZvT)
I'm sorry but nobody wants to open marauders to defend drops of any kind. The armoured change has the effect of making hellbats even more atrocious early game tvt since hellion openers; which are very common for map control and defence are going to be even more terrible to defend dedicated 1 base hellbat builds. Reactor expands with marine/hellion pressure into hellbat drops/mech will still be superior vs dedicated bio builds as mech won't really be in that much weaker of a position in lategame. This makes the build order choices in tvt MUCH more coinflippy.
So to make TVT even more gay your essentially ending it with whoever drops hellbats the fastest since its going to be even more impossible to defend with tech builds..
This makes hellbat marines also incredibly powerful in tvz as hellbats will now tank 7 banes vs 4. I dont think we would ever see any ling bane play from this point forward as it would literally be impossible to deal with that composition efficiently at all.
Make hellbats require the transformation upgrade or blue flame I dont care, but don't make them armored please ><
Edit: Actually another thought, in mirror hellbat builds not too much would change if people threw a tech lab on the idle rax and started pumping a pair of rauders to defend, maybe there would be additional damage done but I think in non mirror tech builds things would be pretty silly.
... Armored hellbats would kill mech TvT. Marauders would completely slaughter them, I agree that it wouldnt do much to change the early game effectiveness but I think you are completely wrong about the effects armor would have.
It would tanks way better vs hellbats too. Way, way way.
Tanks and marauders, especially marauders, need to do better vs hellbats. In WoL TvT, if tanks were unsieged with hellion support, a mech player would be severely punished. In HoTs, a mech player can siege 1-2 seconds late, or even purposely siege "late", using their hellbats to tank as they advance their tanks during the initial stages of an engagement. I don't know if marauders would destroy hellbats if they were armored, but they definitely need to do better than they currently do. Safe, defensive tank openings would perform more consistently against hellbat drops, which should be the case if you are opening very defensive. Of course, it shouldn't be an auto defense, but it should at least be less coinflippy. Currently, tanks can't really compete with hellbat drops. I'm just throwing out ideas, I know my suggestion isn't perfect :D.
marauders are still pretty damn good vs mech, I don't want them any better. you already have advantages, a 1 second late response shouldn't mean a total loss in a head to head engagement, which shouldn't be what the bio player wants anyway.
Don't understand why it's only TvT that people seem to think needs a change with the hellbat. It may be in TvT where it's most obviously seen, but the unit is problematic in all matchups nonetheless. Unit design based on game ending actions + ease of execution is bad for the game. Hellbat play has the potential to end games in all matchups early on is quite high in comparison to other kinds of play from terran, compounded with it's ease of execution and low risk makes it obviously strong, even if the defender knows it's coming. The game ending potential for hellbat + medivac in the earlier stages of the game is large as in zvz baneling wars except it can be done against every race, and can be easily transitioned out of. After this early game, obviously, this potential decreases, just like everything else. The goal isn't to nerf hellbats in TvT only, it's to tweak it for all matchups to make it useful in the late game while not allowing such destructive impact in the earlier stages of the game.
Hellbat drops are only OP in the first 60-90 seconds after they become avaible. After that they are just good.
So the best fix is that Hellbats needs to be researched in order to be built. A 50 mineral, 50 gas tech with a research time of 60-90 seconds will solve the problem.
Hellbat: Hellbat cannot be made out of Factory. Transformation Servos cost decreased 150/150 to 100/100. Hellbat damage decreased from 18+12 vs Light to 18+7 vs Light. Now gains +5 damage from Infernal Pre-igniter. Cargo Size decreased to 2 from 4. Life reduced to 90 from 135. +1 Armor. Light and Bio tag removed.
On July 06 2013 07:08 ejozl wrote: Hellbat: Hellbat cannot be made out of Factory. Transformation Servos cost decreased 150/150 to 100/100. Hellbat damage decreased from 18+12 vs Light to 18+7 vs Light. Now gains +5 damage from Infernal Pre-igniter. Cargo Size decreased to 2 from 4. Life reduced to 90 from 135. +1 Armor. Light and Bio tag removed.
On July 06 2013 07:08 ejozl wrote: Hellbat: Hellbat cannot be made out of Factory. Transformation Servos cost decreased 150/150 to 100/100. Hellbat damage decreased from 18+12 vs Light to 18+7 vs Light. Now gains +5 damage from Infernal Pre-igniter. Cargo Size decreased to 2 from 4. Life reduced to 90 from 135. +1 Armor. Light and Bio tag removed.
lol, from where is it produced then?
Actually he might have stumbled onto quite a good suggestion :D
What if hellbats can only be made from techlabbed barracks, and blue flame for hellbat bonus damage has to be researched from barracks techlab. Would certainly shake things up and make for some pretty interesting build orders.
I know this doesn't make sense since it's a mech unit, but what if :D
On July 06 2013 07:08 ejozl wrote: Hellbat: Hellbat cannot be made out of Factory. Transformation Servos cost decreased 150/150 to 100/100. Hellbat damage decreased from 18+12 vs Light to 18+7 vs Light. Now gains +5 damage from Infernal Pre-igniter. Cargo Size decreased to 2 from 4. Life reduced to 90 from 135. +1 Armor. Light and Bio tag removed.
On July 06 2013 07:08 ejozl wrote: Hellbat: Hellbat cannot be made out of Factory. Transformation Servos cost decreased 150/150 to 100/100. Hellbat damage decreased from 18+12 vs Light to 18+7 vs Light. Now gains +5 damage from Infernal Pre-igniter. Cargo Size decreased to 2 from 4. Life reduced to 90 from 135. +1 Armor. Light and Bio tag removed.
lol, from where is it produced then?
Transformed from hellions I assume.
O right, transformation servos which no one really researches or uses. I forgot about that.
On July 06 2013 07:08 ejozl wrote: Hellbat: Hellbat cannot be made out of Factory. Transformation Servos cost decreased 150/150 to 100/100. Hellbat damage decreased from 18+12 vs Light to 18+7 vs Light. Now gains +5 damage from Infernal Pre-igniter. Cargo Size decreased to 2 from 4. Life reduced to 90 from 135. +1 Armor. Light and Bio tag removed.
lol, from where is it produced then?
Actually he might have stumbled onto quite a good suggestion :D
What if hellbats can only be made from techlabbed barracks, and blue flame for hellbat bonus damage has to be researched from barracks techlab. Would certainly shake things up and make for some pretty interesting build orders.
I know this doesn't make sense since it's a mech unit, but what if :D
If the Hellbat is produced from the barracks, you might as well call it the Firebat. Seriously.
Make SCV's flame retardant =) This way TvT hellbat drops aren't the only way to play, and the other matchups aren't affected. I mean, SCV's can still die to flames, but they get armor buff vs hellbat. Blueflame buff overcomes the armor buff, and damage normalizes.
On July 06 2013 07:08 ejozl wrote: Hellbat: Hellbat cannot be made out of Factory. Transformation Servos cost decreased 150/150 to 100/100. Hellbat damage decreased from 18+12 vs Light to 18+7 vs Light. Now gains +5 damage from Infernal Pre-igniter. Cargo Size decreased to 2 from 4. Life reduced to 90 from 135. +1 Armor. Light and Bio tag removed.
= remove the hellbat from the game to be never ever seen.
Do you think terrans will bother to research 100/100 AND 150/150? In the early-midgame terran is low on gas, so really no room for that. In the endgame terrans DON'T want hellbats, because they are not upgraded, while our bio is 3-3.
The title of the thread says "hellbat drop". What about drop do people not understand? The DROP is the problem, NOT the unit itself. Cargo 8 would make the game perfectly balanced. And please don't come with the crap like "it's not possible, they are not massive, it's weird, it's not realistic". It is.
Well thank god no one on this thread has any part with blizzard balancing team, since i have heard some really crappy suggestions (lol, remove light tag from scvs).
People need to wake up... Hellbats are pretty shitty unit! especially in TvT! and why do i say that? because they are freaking slow!!! and therefore suppose to be so terrible vs ranged units... and guess what? terrans have quite some ranged units... "Yes.. but with medivac drop..." now we're getting into something.... imo, the only solution will be cargo 8.. will that ruin hellbat drop into non exist play? Probably... But on the other hand it wont hurt their well balanced places in TvZ and TvP compositions...
I know that I'm not an expert, so this suggestion is probably flawed, but to me it's the Medivac that's the problem with the drop. They get rid of the one problem with hellbats during the time they are used: They are waaaaaay slow. My solution would be to make it so loading and unloading isn't allowed after turning on Afterburners. This would require very good planning of the drop (when and where to boost) other than just, draw units to medivac, boost to mineral line, drop units, pick up and leave once units get back. I think this would fix the "problem" without changing the match-up dynamic too much. I also think they should get rid of the ability for Medivacs to heal Hellbats, but that might be a little too much if included with other nerfs, so maybe another time for that
On July 06 2013 08:46 dohgg wrote: Well thank god no one on this thread has any part with blizzard balancing team, since i have heard some really crappy suggestions (lol, remove light tag from scvs).
People need to wake up... Hellbats are pretty shitty unit! especially in TvT! and why do i say that? because they are freaking slow!!! and therefore suppose to be so terrible vs ranged units... and guess what? terrans have quite some ranged units... "Yes.. but with medivac drop..." now we're getting into something.... imo, the only solution will be cargo 8.. will that ruin hellbat drop into non exist play? Probably... But on the other hand it wont hurt their well balanced places in TvZ and TvP compositions...
Some crappy suggestion = cargo 8 hellbat rofl. Dude are you on crack. or are you just a retard.
On July 06 2013 08:46 dohgg wrote: Well thank god no one on this thread has any part with blizzard balancing team, since i have heard some really crappy suggestions (lol, remove light tag from scvs).
People need to wake up... Hellbats are pretty shitty unit! especially in TvT! and why do i say that? because they are freaking slow!!! and therefore suppose to be so terrible vs ranged units... and guess what? terrans have quite some ranged units... "Yes.. but with medivac drop..." now we're getting into something.... imo, the only solution will be cargo 8.. will that ruin hellbat drop into non exist play? Probably... But on the other hand it wont hurt their well balanced places in TvZ and TvP compositions...
Some crappy suggestion = cargo 8 hellbat rofl. Dude are you on crack. or are you just a retard.
is it really that bad of an idea? you can say it's unnecessary, but the worst outcome for terran would be that hellbat drops never happen. i'm pretty sure terran can beat any race without dropping hellbats, soo...
not saying i agree with cargo 8 but it wouldn't hurt the game, at most it forces metagame change
On July 06 2013 08:46 dohgg wrote: Well thank god no one on this thread has any part with blizzard balancing team, since i have heard some really crappy suggestions (lol, remove light tag from scvs).
People need to wake up... Hellbats are pretty shitty unit! especially in TvT! and why do i say that? because they are freaking slow!!! and therefore suppose to be so terrible vs ranged units... and guess what? terrans have quite some ranged units... "Yes.. but with medivac drop..." now we're getting into something.... imo, the only solution will be cargo 8.. will that ruin hellbat drop into non exist play? Probably... But on the other hand it wont hurt their well balanced places in TvZ and TvP compositions...
Some crappy suggestion = cargo 8 hellbat rofl. Dude are you on crack. or are you just a retard.
is it really that bad of an idea? you can say it's unnecessary, but the worst outcome for terran would be that hellbat drops never happen. i'm pretty sure terran can beat any race without dropping hellbats, soo...
not saying i agree with cargo 8 but it wouldn't hurt the game, at most it forces metagame change
Killing options is never a good thing for a strategy game.
On July 06 2013 08:46 dohgg wrote: Well thank god no one on this thread has any part with blizzard balancing team, since i have heard some really crappy suggestions (lol, remove light tag from scvs).
People need to wake up... Hellbats are pretty shitty unit! especially in TvT! and why do i say that? because they are freaking slow!!! and therefore suppose to be so terrible vs ranged units... and guess what? terrans have quite some ranged units... "Yes.. but with medivac drop..." now we're getting into something.... imo, the only solution will be cargo 8.. will that ruin hellbat drop into non exist play? Probably... But on the other hand it wont hurt their well balanced places in TvZ and TvP compositions...
Some crappy suggestion = cargo 8 hellbat rofl. Dude are you on crack. or are you just a retard.
is it really that bad of an idea? you can say it's unnecessary, but the worst outcome for terran would be that hellbat drops never happen. i'm pretty sure terran can beat any race without dropping hellbats, soo...
not saying i agree with cargo 8 but it wouldn't hurt the game, at most it forces metagame change
Killing options is never a good thing for a strategy game.
where are the tank drops, zergling drops, stalker drops, etc etc in pro games? i understand what you're saying, but we aren't in a vacuum - there's a sizable part of the community that has a problem with hellbat drops, so removing the option wouldn't simply degrade the game, it would address a voiced concern (even if it did go further than necessary in addressing it). a lot of people probably believe that no hellbat drops ever would be better than the current situation
and like i said, it would force metagame change, which might open up different build options that don't have to account for the threat of hellbat drop play. it's not so black and white as "nerf unit remove option simplify strategy game"
i have no strong opinion and don't advocate his suggestion specifically, but i don't see a problem with it happening either
What about if hellbats required to be built from a tech lab'd factory? It would still require an armory.
This way it just slows down how fast you can produce hellbats, and it gives a reason for the transformation upgrade, which would allow them to be built twice as fast.
Sorry OP, but when you consider the unit you get in the hellbat for 100 minerals, I'm not sure how you can say they aren't overpowered. They need to reduce the damage or make them a lot more frail, or maybe even a combination of both.
On July 06 2013 08:46 dohgg wrote: Well thank god no one on this thread has any part with blizzard balancing team, since i have heard some really crappy suggestions (lol, remove light tag from scvs).
People need to wake up... Hellbats are pretty shitty unit! especially in TvT! and why do i say that? because they are freaking slow!!! and therefore suppose to be so terrible vs ranged units... and guess what? terrans have quite some ranged units... "Yes.. but with medivac drop..." now we're getting into something.... imo, the only solution will be cargo 8.. will that ruin hellbat drop into non exist play? Probably... But on the other hand it wont hurt their well balanced places in TvZ and TvP compositions...
Some crappy suggestion = cargo 8 hellbat rofl. Dude are you on crack. or are you just a retard.
What is wrong with it? The hellbat drops are imba, so nerf the drops. I really don't see the problem with cargo 8.
On July 05 2013 11:46 plogamer wrote: Rather than balance hellbat drops, Blizzard can just kill hellbat drops.
Remove and the hellbat transformation upgrade, make it built in. Hellions will be like Vikings now. 1 unit-name, 2 modes right from production. Add a debuff called "incompatibility"; since the new transformation is a recent tech in SC2 lore, hellions in battle transformation (hellbat) cannot be loaded into medivacs.
Hellbats are too strong in normal fights too buddy. Zealots and marine tank just flat-out die when there are hellbats mixed in. Also, hellbat marauder pushes (I believe Polt did one or two during MLG) versus Zerg are incredibly strong. Dropping them requires some micro, but using them in engagements requires roughly 0. Zealots might actually require more micro than hellbats. They are both incredibly a-movish. Hellbats are the shittiest designed units out there. Whoever thought of them as a new unit is a total idiot. Plus, they are incredibly tanky and do a ton of damage. Shit, I see hellbats trolling SIEGE tanks. It's just a horribly made unit. BUT THEN, THEY REQUIRE ONLY MINERALS, LOL!
You're in denial here, plogamer.
Really? Go whine about hellbats in the widow-mine threads. Everyone was QQ'ing they were too cost efficient, too strong, wahh wahh wahh. And now? Yeah, I bet you think widow mines are imba too. I think you're in WoL-mode "buddy".
On July 06 2013 08:46 dohgg wrote: Well thank god no one on this thread has any part with blizzard balancing team, since i have heard some really crappy suggestions (lol, remove light tag from scvs).
People need to wake up... Hellbats are pretty shitty unit! especially in TvT! and why do i say that? because they are freaking slow!!! and therefore suppose to be so terrible vs ranged units... and guess what? terrans have quite some ranged units... "Yes.. but with medivac drop..." now we're getting into something.... imo, the only solution will be cargo 8.. will that ruin hellbat drop into non exist play? Probably... But on the other hand it wont hurt their well balanced places in TvZ and TvP compositions...
Some crappy suggestion = cargo 8 hellbat rofl. Dude are you on crack. or are you just a retard.
What is wrong with it? The hellbat drops are imba, so nerf the drops. I really don't see the problem with cargo 8.
On July 05 2013 11:46 plogamer wrote: Rather than balance hellbat drops, Blizzard can just kill hellbat drops.
Remove and the hellbat transformation upgrade, make it built in. Hellions will be like Vikings now. 1 unit-name, 2 modes right from production. Add a debuff called "incompatibility"; since the new transformation is a recent tech in SC2 lore, hellions in battle transformation (hellbat) cannot be loaded into medivacs.
Hellbats are too strong in normal fights too buddy. Zealots and marine tank just flat-out die when there are hellbats mixed in. Also, hellbat marauder pushes (I believe Polt did one or two during MLG) versus Zerg are incredibly strong. Dropping them requires some micro, but using them in engagements requires roughly 0. Zealots might actually require more micro than hellbats. They are both incredibly a-movish. Hellbats are the shittiest designed units out there. Whoever thought of them as a new unit is a total idiot. Plus, they are incredibly tanky and do a ton of damage. Shit, I see hellbats trolling SIEGE tanks. It's just a horribly made unit. BUT THEN, THEY REQUIRE ONLY MINERALS, LOL!
You're in denial here, plogamer.
Oh really? Hellbats are 1amovish? Every terran unit has to be code S micro intensive, right? Meanwhile zergs are 1a'ing every single unit.
On July 05 2013 11:46 plogamer wrote: Rather than balance hellbat drops, Blizzard can just kill hellbat drops.
Remove and the hellbat transformation upgrade, make it built in. Hellions will be like Vikings now. 1 unit-name, 2 modes right from production. Add a debuff called "incompatibility"; since the new transformation is a recent tech in SC2 lore, hellions in battle transformation (hellbat) cannot be loaded into medivacs.
Hellbats are too strong in normal fights too buddy. Zealots and marine tank just flat-out die when there are hellbats mixed in. Also, hellbat marauder pushes (I believe Polt did one or two during MLG) versus Zerg are incredibly strong. Dropping them requires some micro, but using them in engagements requires roughly 0. Zealots might actually require more micro than hellbats. They are both incredibly a-movish. Hellbats are the shittiest designed units out there. Whoever thought of them as a new unit is a total idiot. Plus, they are incredibly tanky and do a ton of damage. Shit, I see hellbats trolling SIEGE tanks. It's just a horribly made unit. BUT THEN, THEY REQUIRE ONLY MINERALS, LOL!
You're in denial here, plogamer.
Oh really? Hellbats are 1amovish? Every terran unit has to be code S micro intensive, right? Meanwhile zergs are 1a'ing every single unit.
On July 05 2013 11:46 plogamer wrote: Rather than balance hellbat drops, Blizzard can just kill hellbat drops.
Remove and the hellbat transformation upgrade, make it built in. Hellions will be like Vikings now. 1 unit-name, 2 modes right from production. Add a debuff called "incompatibility"; since the new transformation is a recent tech in SC2 lore, hellions in battle transformation (hellbat) cannot be loaded into medivacs.
Hellbats are too strong in normal fights too buddy. Zealots and marine tank just flat-out die when there are hellbats mixed in. Also, hellbat marauder pushes (I believe Polt did one or two during MLG) versus Zerg are incredibly strong. Dropping them requires some micro, but using them in engagements requires roughly 0. Zealots might actually require more micro than hellbats. They are both incredibly a-movish. Hellbats are the shittiest designed units out there. Whoever thought of them as a new unit is a total idiot. Plus, they are incredibly tanky and do a ton of damage. Shit, I see hellbats trolling SIEGE tanks. It's just a horribly made unit. BUT THEN, THEY REQUIRE ONLY MINERALS, LOL!
You're in denial here, plogamer.
Oh really? Hellbats are 1amovish? Every terran unit has to be code S micro intensive, right? Meanwhile zergs are 1a'ing every single unit.
On July 06 2013 11:03 IamHobbyless wrote: What about carbo 6 so you could load up a mines or something?
I personally think any change to cargo space or even making impossible to load should be the last solution to be implemented.
Making hellbat to have 4 cargo spaces is already weird (but still ok since baneling takes double of zergling space). I don't want 2 supply unit takes that big space just to make the balance right.
And I think making hellbat unable to load is going against game logic. All ground units that are mobile should be loaded to 'dropships' (overlord, WP, medivac). seized tank is not an exception because it cannot be moved. burrowed units might be exceptions but... I don't have to explain why
That is why nerfing to 18+4 light than upgrade blue flame to get full power is the best one I could think of. Hellbat is soooooooooo overpowered in TvT EARLY game and to a less degree in early TvZ and TvP. That's why making early-mid game hellbat to be less effective OVERALL (not only drops) would helps other match ups as well. It won't affect the mid-late game that much than other nerfs. And hellbat still two shots drones and probes not scv (3 shots).
If you think hellbat is too nerfed by this, make hellbat just a transformation of hellion (like viking) with no armory requirement (nor techlab). Blizzard made armory requirement for hellbat because it was too powerful for early game. I think with this nerf and buff, hellbat can come faster but less effective in early game (which what everyone wants)
Edit: If you think no armory requirement is too imba, maybe make it require armory but without transformation servo upgrade. so hellbats are no longer built from factory but just a transformation of hellion
On July 06 2013 11:03 IamHobbyless wrote: What about carbo 6 so you could load up a mines or something?
I personally think any change to cargo space or even making impossible to load should be the last solution to be implemented.
Making hellbat to have 4 cargo spaces is already weird (but still ok since baneling takes double of zergling space). I don't want 2 supply unit takes that big space just to make the balance right.
And I think making hellbat unable to load is going against game logic. All ground units that are mobile should be loaded to 'dropships' (overlord, WP, medivac). seized tank is not an exception because it cannot be moved. burrowed units might be exceptions but... I don't have to explain why
That is why nerfing to 18+4 light than upgrade blue flame to get full power is the best one I could think of. Hellbat is soooooooooo overpowered in TvT EARLY game and to a less degree in early TvZ and TvP. That's why making early-mid game hellbat to be less effective OVERALL (not only drops) would helps other match ups as well. It won't affect the mid-late game that much than other nerfs. And hellbat still two shots drones and probes not scv (3 shots).
If you think hellbat is too nerfed by this, make hellbat just a transformation of hellion (like viking) with no armory requirement (nor techlab). Blizzard made armory requirement for hellbat because it was too powerful for early game. I think with this nerf and buff, hellbat can come faster but less effective in early game (which what everyone wants)
Edit: If you think no armory requirement is too imba, maybe make it require armory but without transformation servo upgrade. so hellbats are no longer built from factory but just a transformation of hellion
You have nothing of substance to disagree with increasing the cargo space used by hellbats. There is nothing except that it is "already weird". And you, the king of balance, don't want to make 2 supply unit take BIG SPACE. OH NO, BIG SPACE SO BAD.
You know what's weird? Nerfing hellbat damage rather than drop capacity because hellbatdrops are OP.
Hmm, do i read the thread correctly if I say that people are mainly worried about hellbats in TvT? Would hellbats be fine if it was not for TvT? Statistically it is decently balanced between the races as I understand?
If so, couldn't a solution be to give terran a good defense vs hellbats (whatever that would be...), as much as nerfing the hellbats?
lol, 200 minerals for a hellbat drop. Potential to end the game outright, you call this balance? There is literally no argument you can make. Bio units are awesome, you should try em'
On July 06 2013 14:56 TOdesKaMpF wrote: lol, 200 minerals for a hellbat drop. Potential to end the game outright, you call this balance? There is literally no argument you can make. Bio units are awesome, you should try em'
I can say the same for an oracle in my mineral line... Then You'll say but I had to invest into stargates and skip defenses! Well the dropping Terran had to build an armory AND a reactor on the barracks with only widow mines or hellions for defense.
Math is either not your strong point or you are trolling.
On July 06 2013 14:10 Cascade wrote: Hmm, do i read the thread correctly if I say that people are mainly worried about hellbats in TvT? Would hellbats be fine if it was not for TvT? Statistically it is decently balanced between the races as I understand?
If so, couldn't a solution be to give terran a good defense vs hellbats (whatever that would be...), as much as nerfing the hellbats?
No, hellbat drops in TvT. Terran always get Blizzard's ire when they use units "not as intended". Thor nerf, ghost nerf, bunker nerf, etc
What's BS is that this time we're told hellbat drops may be "adjusted" never mind that if Terran currently has the most powerful AA buildings in the game including turret (27.9 dps vs 17.4 for spore and 16 for photon cannon) and marine loaded bunkers (28/42 dps).
Yeah, never mind that ghost rushing negates medivac healing (EMP) and don't take extra damage from hellbats. Never mind that iEchoic's banshee/hellion completely shuts hellbat drops hard (4.25 vs 2.25)
Noooooooo, nerf the hellbat, looking so nasty, never mind their OPness is from Flash, famous Korean BW player for his drop micro.
On July 05 2013 11:46 plogamer wrote: Rather than balance hellbat drops, Blizzard can just kill hellbat drops.
Remove and the hellbat transformation upgrade, make it built in. Hellions will be like Vikings now. 1 unit-name, 2 modes right from production. Add a debuff called "incompatibility"; since the new transformation is a recent tech in SC2 lore, hellions in battle transformation (hellbat) cannot be loaded into medivacs.
Hellbats are too strong in normal fights too buddy. Zealots and marine tank just flat-out die when there are hellbats mixed in. Also, hellbat marauder pushes (I believe Polt did one or two during MLG) versus Zerg are incredibly strong. Dropping them requires some micro, but using them in engagements requires roughly 0. Zealots might actually require more micro than hellbats. They are both incredibly a-movish. Hellbats are the shittiest designed units out there. Whoever thought of them as a new unit is a total idiot. Plus, they are incredibly tanky and do a ton of damage. Shit, I see hellbats trolling SIEGE tanks. It's just a horribly made unit. BUT THEN, THEY REQUIRE ONLY MINERALS, LOL!
You're in denial here, plogamer.
Oh really? Hellbats are 1amovish? Every terran unit has to be code S micro intensive, right? Meanwhile zergs are 1a'ing every single unit.
And polt his marauder hellbat is so strong thanks to the damage done by the hellbat drops. Take away those drops and his push is MUCH weaker.
Bro, Hellbat is imba (not op) in TvT only. (maybe in other matchups but sooooo strong in TvT early games) Of course the statistic won't show it.
And if zerg a move, they will get toasted by WM, Colossus with FF, banemine, etc.... It's not a bronze league hero.
i played at decent high diamond with just a moving, im sure pro gamer level we could see more balance or imbalance but clearly the 5 under leagues so it might look something is imbalance in lower leagues i like hellbat play but i dont like this kind of tvt i think it needs to improve for the good old epic tvt matchups
On July 06 2013 14:10 Cascade wrote: Hmm, do i read the thread correctly if I say that people are mainly worried about hellbats in TvT? Would hellbats be fine if it was not for TvT? Statistically it is decently balanced between the races as I understand?
If so, couldn't a solution be to give terran a good defense vs hellbats (whatever that would be...), as much as nerfing the hellbats?
A good defense vs. hellbats would likely affect the other matchups.
For example, if you want to stop the medivac, you can perhaps improve spotting (sensor tower) or attack the medivac directly (missle turret), but there are already good options.
Perhaps you want some sort of static defense? Well that would overpower terran, which can already cope with planetary fortresses and bunkers and turrets and walls.
Perhaps you make scvs take less damage? Err then banelings, oracles, colossi, phoenixes, etc. would probably do less damage against scvs too.
Okay, I got it - the perfect solution.
New defensive structure - Hellbat Guard, 100 min. Whenever a unit is dropped, it is instantly surrounded by harmless barricades that prevent it from moving. It only affects units whose names include "bat".
On July 06 2013 14:10 Cascade wrote: Hmm, do i read the thread correctly if I say that people are mainly worried about hellbats in TvT? Would hellbats be fine if it was not for TvT? Statistically it is decently balanced between the races as I understand?
If so, couldn't a solution be to give terran a good defense vs hellbats (whatever that would be...), as much as nerfing the hellbats?
A good defense vs. hellbats would likely affect the other matchups.
For example, if you want to stop the medivac, you can perhaps improve spotting (sensor tower) or attack the medivac directly (missle turret), but there are already good options.
Perhaps you want some sort of static defense? Well that would overpower terran, which can already cope with planetary fortresses and bunkers and turrets and walls.
Perhaps you make scvs take less damage? Err then banelings, oracles, colossi, phoenixes, etc. would probably do less damage against scvs too.
Okay, I got it - the perfect solution.
New defensive structure - Hellbat Guard, 100 min. Whenever a unit is dropped, it is instantly surrounded by harmless barricades that prevent it from moving. It only affects units whose names include "bat".
...or not?
Or just give the Turret a special attack dealing 135 spell damage to light bio mechanical units. Problem solved!
On July 06 2013 14:10 Cascade wrote: Hmm, do i read the thread correctly if I say that people are mainly worried about hellbats in TvT? Would hellbats be fine if it was not for TvT? Statistically it is decently balanced between the races as I understand?
If so, couldn't a solution be to give terran a good defense vs hellbats (whatever that would be...), as much as nerfing the hellbats?
A good defense vs. hellbats would likely affect the other matchups.
For example, if you want to stop the medivac, you can perhaps improve spotting (sensor tower) or attack the medivac directly (missle turret), but there are already good options.
Perhaps you want some sort of static defense? Well that would overpower terran, which can already cope with planetary fortresses and bunkers and turrets and walls.
Perhaps you make scvs take less damage? Err then banelings, oracles, colossi, phoenixes, etc. would probably do less damage against scvs too.
Okay, I got it - the perfect solution.
New defensive structure - Hellbat Guard, 100 min. Whenever a unit is dropped, it is instantly surrounded by harmless barricades that prevent it from moving. It only affects units whose names include "bat".
...or not?
Yeah, buffing some defense vs HB drops is likely to affect other MUs. But nerfing HB drops is also likely to affect other MUs. Just saying that that maybe we should be looking at both possibilities. I don't have any good ideas myself though. :/ Could be that nerfing is the way to go...
On July 03 2013 23:45 Faust852 wrote: When you scout hellbat drop, you still can lose the game because hellbat can kill so many scv even with a turret/bunker. With the banshee it's not the same, you can defend it with one AA tower and that's it, you wont sucide it to kill 2 drones while the drop hellbat, you just do it.
Well right now you can defend a banshee just with 2 queens. So of course now it's not a problem ^^. I waste thon of money on starport, addon and banshee+inviz - and you just make 1 aa each base (or even just queens + overseer). And now imagine banshee that deals as much damage as hellbat drops. (remember, it has to be same powerfull - because now terran is not imba)
I believe this is an issue as well. Did Blizzard ever state why they made it so Spores only require Pool in HOTS instead of evo? Right now you can't even catch a Zerg with it's pants down.
I'm pretty sure this was because of early widow mines.
I guess they should give terran something with a bonus to units with both the bio and mech tag.
Lumi: That was a mostly well-said wall of text. There were just a few things near the end that I'd contest...
On July 05 2013 17:23 Lumi wrote: Even hearing Blizzard's recent talk about why they think this or that about certain units or desired changes, they seem to speak at least as much about wanting things to be fun for spectators as they do for actually wanting t he game to be balanced. And never in the same breath. I'm sure Blizzard wants to have a balanced game, but I think they are being pretty derpy about a fair few things in HotS, so it's not quite happening.
It's disappointing when you see them trying out random buffs just for the sake of excitement for spectators (warp prism buff, that's the only reasoning I saw.)
From the first sentence here http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/8920191947?page=1#1: "I'm sure you guys have been seeing this too, but we're noticing Protoss slightly underperforming at the highest level of play especially in Korea and Europe."
That sounds like a rather balance-centric reason to buff to me. Granted, the necessity of such a buff could be considered questionable, and the specific buff they decided to go with was most likely motivated at some level by a desire to make the game have more action. At very least, the initial rationale for the buff was balance-related.
On July 05 2013 17:23 Lumi wrote: A) Hellbats simply are a mechanical unit. They benefit from mechanical upgrades. The damage they take is decreased based on upgrades to their plating. But their damage can be healed by medivacs, which only heal biological units. This is actually a really embarassing detail, if you're willing to take the game seriously enough and to criticize Blizzard for blatantly shoddy, balance-negligent game design.
I don't see how the biological tag is balance-negligent game design? IIRC, they were given the biological tag to make them more resilient (particularly against mass zealot warpins). If anything, it's lore-negligent.
On July 05 2013 17:23 Lumi wrote: B) Widow mines splash damage hits everything, above and below ground, except for other widow mines - whether above or below ground. Nowhere in Starcraft 1 or 2 has a unit had some weird and self-convenient dynamic like this, which defies the consistency of the games physics so sharply. It seems like another glossed over, even unconsidered matter.
From a balance perspective, this is very similar to the hover tag given to vultures and harvesters in SC1. Again, your criticism here seems to be more lore-related than balance-related.
On July 06 2013 11:03 IamHobbyless wrote: What about carbo 6 so you could load up a mines or something?
I personally think any change to cargo space or even making impossible to load should be the last solution to be implemented.
Making hellbat to have 4 cargo spaces is already weird (but still ok since baneling takes double of zergling space). I don't want 2 supply unit takes that big space just to make the balance right.
And I think making hellbat unable to load is going against game logic. All ground units that are mobile should be loaded to 'dropships' (overlord, WP, medivac). seized tank is not an exception because it cannot be moved. burrowed units might be exceptions but... I don't have to explain why
That is why nerfing to 18+4 light than upgrade blue flame to get full power is the best one I could think of. Hellbat is soooooooooo overpowered in TvT EARLY game and to a less degree in early TvZ and TvP. That's why making early-mid game hellbat to be less effective OVERALL (not only drops) would helps other match ups as well. It won't affect the mid-late game that much than other nerfs. And hellbat still two shots drones and probes not scv (3 shots).
If you think hellbat is too nerfed by this, make hellbat just a transformation of hellion (like viking) with no armory requirement (nor techlab). Blizzard made armory requirement for hellbat because it was too powerful for early game. I think with this nerf and buff, hellbat can come faster but less effective in early game (which what everyone wants)
Edit: If you think no armory requirement is too imba, maybe make it require armory but without transformation servo upgrade. so hellbats are no longer built from factory but just a transformation of hellion
You have nothing of substance to disagree with increasing the cargo space used by hellbats. There is nothing except that it is "already weird". And you, the king of balance, don't want to make 2 supply unit take BIG SPACE. OH NO, BIG SPACE SO BAD.
You know what's weird? Nerfing hellbat damage rather than drop capacity because hellbatdrops are OP.
okay, okay.... But are you sure that only the hellbatdrops are problem? I don't think so. That's why I have suggested mine. If everyone (or at least majority of the ppl) think early hellbat itself now (with full dmg) is ok in TvT, your opinion might be valid.
Strelok is right. Hellbats are only an issue in TvT. Sometimes the most subtle tweaks are the most effective. What if Hi-sec auto tracking was rolled into the turret(not requiring an upgrade)?
This means that the turrets have automatically longer range and nail the medivacs with 1 extra shot before they get to land the hellbats.
If they make that tweak, and remove the bio tag, I believe that this is all the changes required. Hellbat drops should not be completely removed from the game like so many of you want. It should still be usable and still be an option.
On July 06 2013 17:08 D_K_night wrote: Strelok is right. Hellbats are only an issue in TvT. Sometimes the most subtle tweaks are the most effective. What if Hi-sec auto tracking was rolled into the turret(not requiring an upgrade)?
This means that the turrets have automatically longer range and nail the medivacs with 1 extra shot before they get to land the hellbats.
If they make that tweak, and remove the bio tag, I believe that this is all the changes required. Hellbat drops should not be completely removed from the game like so many of you want. It should still be usable and still be an option.
I can see your point but
-turret buff will affect ANYTHING THAT FLIES and I don't think that will be implemented.
-removing bio tag is not enough to stop hellbat drop (still kills enough).
Hellbat 135 health 18+12 damage 2 range 2.25 speed (4.25 with mediboost) can be healed
Me thinks its too much worth for the gascost (to cheap). I believe a 100 health and a lower 18+6 damage (3 hits instead of 2 hits against scv's) could solve it. It would still be worth it to build one, but it would be more of a bio unit that can be healed. This because the 135 health +more damage output+healing for only 100 gas is just to insane.
Hello. i think a upgrade to delay early drops especialy in tvt would be try-able. like an upgrade that takes 30sek to build and cost25/25 recources. Whit the only function to make tvt less random.
i liked helibats. But i think its to low effort to do it and even the best fail to defend it. The medivacboost is what makes hits all more intresting i tgink. never nerf! /i
On July 06 2013 08:46 dohgg wrote: Well thank god no one on this thread has any part with blizzard balancing team, since i have heard some really crappy suggestions (lol, remove light tag from scvs).
People need to wake up... Hellbats are pretty shitty unit! especially in TvT! and why do i say that? because they are freaking slow!!! and therefore suppose to be so terrible vs ranged units... and guess what? terrans have quite some ranged units... "Yes.. but with medivac drop..." now we're getting into something.... imo, the only solution will be cargo 8.. will that ruin hellbat drop into non exist play? Probably... But on the other hand it wont hurt their well balanced places in TvZ and TvP compositions...
Some crappy suggestion = cargo 8 hellbat rofl. Dude are you on crack. or are you just a retard.
Well lol... and why does 8 cargo makes no sense? because the unit doesn't have a unit model like the size of a thor, collosus or ultra? let me remind you my dear friend... we're playing a professional RTS game which the first priority of things that should make sense is not the way things look, but the balancing of things.
About opinions which will delay the production or tech of hellbats - imo, time isn't the biggest issue, we still see some pretty late hellbats drops (usually involved like 3 medivac drops all together) which still make a significant damage even though theres a bunker + missle turret ready to defend.
On July 06 2013 17:43 govie wrote: Hellion 80 health 8+6 damage 5 range 4.25 speed
Hellbat 135 health 18+12 damage 2 range 2.25 speed (4.25 with mediboost) can be healed
Me thinks its too much worth for the gascost (to cheap). I believe a 100 health and a lower 18+6 damage (3 hits instead of 2 hits against scv's) could solve it. It would still be worth it to build one, but it would be more of a bio unit that can be healed. This because the 135 health +more damage output+healing for only 100 gas is just to insane.
Except that would mean then there's no point in building a HB considering that marauders and reapers are more cost effective. Barracks w/ tech lab build faster and cost LESS than a reactor'd factory. Add the mobility from Stim and jump packs and hellbats will become as common as walker Vikings. The point of hellbats was to combat mass 3/3 tier one units past 30min for the much slower production rate mech Terran.
Right now Terran is at a position of deterring mass T1 remax wars when mass hellbats are out. A 3/3 hellbat is a monster past 30min. Add in medivacs and any TvX opponent must have AA buildings and scouting to fend off hellbat backstabs. This is a good thing. Players will be rewarded for having good pre-game sim city 2/3/4/5++ base layout plans IN ADDITION to proper main army control, production and splits.
On July 06 2013 17:43 govie wrote: Hellion 80 health 8+6 damage 5 range 4.25 speed
Hellbat 135 health 18+12 damage 2 range 2.25 speed (4.25 with mediboost) can be healed
Me thinks its too much worth for the gascost (to cheap). I believe a 100 health and a lower 18+6 damage (3 hits instead of 2 hits against scv's) could solve it. It would still be worth it to build one, but it would be more of a bio unit that can be healed. This because the 135 health +more damage output+healing for only 100 gas is just to insane.
First of all, 18+6 (I was also confused...) still 2 shots scvs. 18+4 three shots scvs. (22+22 < 45)
And only early hellbat is the problem. If you nerf hellbat overall too much, it will effect late games too (esp PvT)
On July 06 2013 17:43 govie wrote: Hellion 80 health 8+6 damage 5 range 4.25 speed
Hellbat 135 health 18+12 damage 2 range 2.25 speed (4.25 with mediboost) can be healed
Me thinks its too much worth for the gascost (to cheap). I believe a 100 health and a lower 18+6 damage (3 hits instead of 2 hits against scv's) could solve it. It would still be worth it to build one, but it would be more of a bio unit that can be healed. This because the 135 health +more damage output+healing for only 100 gas is just to insane.
First of all, 18+6 (I was also confused...) still 2 shots scvs. 18+4 three shots scvs. (22+22 < 45)
And only early hellbat is the problem. If you nerf hellbat overall too much, it will effect late games too (esp PvT)
You know what? Fu*k it! Give Missile turrets stim. Call it "Missile barrage". Problem solved.
On July 05 2013 11:46 plogamer wrote: Rather than balance hellbat drops, Blizzard can just kill hellbat drops.
Remove and the hellbat transformation upgrade, make it built in. Hellions will be like Vikings now. 1 unit-name, 2 modes right from production. Add a debuff called "incompatibility"; since the new transformation is a recent tech in SC2 lore, hellions in battle transformation (hellbat) cannot be loaded into medivacs.
Hellbats are too strong in normal fights too buddy. Zealots and marine tank just flat-out die when there are hellbats mixed in. Also, hellbat marauder pushes (I believe Polt did one or two during MLG) versus Zerg are incredibly strong. Dropping them requires some micro, but using them in engagements requires roughly 0. Zealots might actually require more micro than hellbats. They are both incredibly a-movish. Hellbats are the shittiest designed units out there. Whoever thought of them as a new unit is a total idiot. Plus, they are incredibly tanky and do a ton of damage. Shit, I see hellbats trolling SIEGE tanks. It's just a horribly made unit. BUT THEN, THEY REQUIRE ONLY MINERALS, LOL!
You're in denial here, plogamer.
Oh really? Hellbats are 1amovish? Every terran unit has to be code S micro intensive, right? Meanwhile zergs are 1a'ing every single unit.
And polt his marauder hellbat is so strong thanks to the damage done by the hellbat drops. Take away those drops and his push is MUCH weaker.
Hellbat are imba in a way that it breaks TvT, not others.
And zergs do not 1a every single unit.
No, really no. Hellbat DROPS are breaking tvt. Without the drops, bio is fine. It's insane how hard it is to play against a good bioplayer who abuses the speedvacs (see innovation v flash, before they realised hellbat drops are imba).
On July 06 2013 11:03 IamHobbyless wrote: What about carbo 6 so you could load up a mines or something?
I personally think any change to cargo space or even making impossible to load should be the last solution to be implemented.
Making hellbat to have 4 cargo spaces is already weird (but still ok since baneling takes double of zergling space). I don't want 2 supply unit takes that big space just to make the balance right.
Yeah, when they make it cargo 8, the game will be unplayable. It will feel so weird that esports will die. I mean, cargo 8? Really? So damn weird! Impossible! Unacceptable! We want a big damage nerf so we can never see them again!
Then there is left: the widow mine (but zergs already found the way to beat them), the speedvac (that's the next target after the big hellbat nerf) and the raven (that's for 2014 to whine about). And then we finally get our 70% ZvT WoL winrate back, because we LOVED that! Take away all the hots terran options! Terran has a unit that doesn't require code S micro? NERF IT!
On July 06 2013 08:46 dohgg wrote: Well thank god no one on this thread has any part with blizzard balancing team, since i have heard some really crappy suggestions (lol, remove light tag from scvs).
People need to wake up... Hellbats are pretty shitty unit! especially in TvT! and why do i say that? because they are freaking slow!!! and therefore suppose to be so terrible vs ranged units... and guess what? terrans have quite some ranged units... "Yes.. but with medivac drop..." now we're getting into something.... imo, the only solution will be cargo 8.. will that ruin hellbat drop into non exist play? Probably... But on the other hand it wont hurt their well balanced places in TvZ and TvP compositions...
Some crappy suggestion = cargo 8 hellbat rofl. Dude are you on crack. or are you just a retard.
Well lol... and why does 8 cargo makes no sense? because the unit doesn't have a unit model like the size of a thor, collosus or ultra? let me remind you my dear friend... we're playing a professional RTS game which the first priority of things that should make sense is not the way things look, but the balancing of things.
About opinions which will delay the production or tech of hellbats - imo, time isn't the biggest issue, we still see some pretty late hellbats drops (usually involved like 3 medivac drops all together) which still make a significant damage even though theres a bunker + missle turret ready to defend.
Actually you can argue for it quite easily, its taller than anything else that goes in a medivac. You could undersling them like the thor. But as others have said at the same cost as a helion it has double the hitting power. They need a damage nerf or a cost boost. I think it should go back to being only able to produce helions and transform them once the servos is researched. It'd delay them and otherwise there's no point the transform being there as hellbats are better in almost all scenarios.
As a master player who plays my fair share of random, I think hellbats are fine. As DK night says, perhaps a buff to turrets so hellbats don't completely dominate tvt because that's the real problem. Playing bio is no longer viable in tvt because hellbats require no ups and are so cost effective. While with bio, you need stim, combat shield, and 1-1.
I really hope blizzard doesn't listen to the masses and nerf hellbats because most of the qq is coming from people who hopped on the band wagon and don't even play more than 1 race...
On July 06 2013 08:46 dohgg wrote: Well thank god no one on this thread has any part with blizzard balancing team, since i have heard some really crappy suggestions (lol, remove light tag from scvs).
People need to wake up... Hellbats are pretty shitty unit! especially in TvT! and why do i say that? because they are freaking slow!!! and therefore suppose to be so terrible vs ranged units... and guess what? terrans have quite some ranged units... "Yes.. but with medivac drop..." now we're getting into something.... imo, the only solution will be cargo 8.. will that ruin hellbat drop into non exist play? Probably... But on the other hand it wont hurt their well balanced places in TvZ and TvP compositions...
Some crappy suggestion = cargo 8 hellbat rofl. Dude are you on crack. or are you just a retard.
Well lol... and why does 8 cargo makes no sense? because the unit doesn't have a unit model like the size of a thor, collosus or ultra? let me remind you my dear friend... we're playing a professional RTS game which the first priority of things that should make sense is not the way things look, but the balancing of things.
About opinions which will delay the production or tech of hellbats - imo, time isn't the biggest issue, we still see some pretty late hellbats drops (usually involved like 3 medivac drops all together) which still make a significant damage even though theres a bunker + missle turret ready to defend.
Actually you can argue for it quite easily, its taller than anything else that goes in a medivac. You could undersling them like the thor. But as others have said at the same cost as a helion it has double the hitting power. They need a damage nerf or a cost boost. I think it should go back to being only able to produce helions and transform them once the servos is researched. It'd delay them and otherwise there's no point the transform being there as hellbats are better in almost all scenarios.
Unless you double the damage output of a hellbat, no.
On July 06 2013 20:00 TRaFFiC wrote: As a master player who plays my fair share of random, I think hellbats are fine. As DK night says, perhaps a buff to turrets so hellbats don't completely dominate tvt because that's the real problem. Playing bio is no longer viable in tvt because hellbats require no ups and are so cost effective. While with bio, you need stim, combat shield, and 1-1.
I really hope blizzard doesn't listen to the masses and nerf hellbats because most of the qq is coming from people who hopped on the band wagon and don't even play more than 1 race...
I'd argue most the qq is coming from zerg and protosses who are hoping the nerf spills onto their plate(when mech is gimmicky at best in both those mus).
A 18+4 nerf might be the best suggestion yet imo. That being said, I think they need to look at the transformation servos upgrade again and lower it to like 50/50. The thing is, if you require blue flame for hellbats not to suck, I think people will just switch 100% back to blue flame hellions, atleast if they need to waste 150 gas for the transformation upgrade. Some might say that's good I suppose, but while I won't mourn seeing hellbats less, making them extinct isn't what I want. With a nerfed usefulness in drops until the defender is ready to kill them, blue flame hellions are simply better than hellbats in TvT(mech vs mech).
On July 06 2013 08:46 dohgg wrote: Well thank god no one on this thread has any part with blizzard balancing team, since i have heard some really crappy suggestions (lol, remove light tag from scvs).
People need to wake up... Hellbats are pretty shitty unit! especially in TvT! and why do i say that? because they are freaking slow!!! and therefore suppose to be so terrible vs ranged units... and guess what? terrans have quite some ranged units... "Yes.. but with medivac drop..." now we're getting into something.... imo, the only solution will be cargo 8.. will that ruin hellbat drop into non exist play? Probably... But on the other hand it wont hurt their well balanced places in TvZ and TvP compositions...
Some crappy suggestion = cargo 8 hellbat rofl. Dude are you on crack. or are you just a retard.
Well lol... and why does 8 cargo makes no sense? because the unit doesn't have a unit model like the size of a thor, collosus or ultra? let me remind you my dear friend... we're playing a professional RTS game which the first priority of things that should make sense is not the way things look, but the balancing of things.
About opinions which will delay the production or tech of hellbats - imo, time isn't the biggest issue, we still see some pretty late hellbats drops (usually involved like 3 medivac drops all together) which still make a significant damage even though theres a bunker + missle turret ready to defend.
This is a huge nerf to Hellbat drop in general. I thought the problem was the timing of the drop(s).
On July 06 2013 08:46 dohgg wrote: Well thank god no one on this thread has any part with blizzard balancing team, since i have heard some really crappy suggestions (lol, remove light tag from scvs).
People need to wake up... Hellbats are pretty shitty unit! especially in TvT! and why do i say that? because they are freaking slow!!! and therefore suppose to be so terrible vs ranged units... and guess what? terrans have quite some ranged units... "Yes.. but with medivac drop..." now we're getting into something.... imo, the only solution will be cargo 8.. will that ruin hellbat drop into non exist play? Probably... But on the other hand it wont hurt their well balanced places in TvZ and TvP compositions...
Some crappy suggestion = cargo 8 hellbat rofl. Dude are you on crack. or are you just a retard.
Well lol... and why does 8 cargo makes no sense? because the unit doesn't have a unit model like the size of a thor, collosus or ultra? let me remind you my dear friend... we're playing a professional RTS game which the first priority of things that should make sense is not the way things look, but the balancing of things.
About opinions which will delay the production or tech of hellbats - imo, time isn't the biggest issue, we still see some pretty late hellbats drops (usually involved like 3 medivac drops all together) which still make a significant damage even though theres a bunker + missle turret ready to defend.
This is a huge nerf to Hellbat drop in general. I thought the problem was the timing of the drop(s).
+1. That's why everyone's brain is toasted... SO HARD TO FIX THIS DAM PROBLEM
On July 06 2013 17:43 govie wrote: Hellion 80 health 8+6 damage 5 range 4.25 speed
Hellbat 135 health 18+12 damage 2 range 2.25 speed (4.25 with mediboost) can be healed
Me thinks its too much worth for the gascost (to cheap). I believe a 100 health and a lower 18+6 damage (3 hits instead of 2 hits against scv's) could solve it. It would still be worth it to build one, but it would be more of a bio unit that can be healed. This because the 135 health +more damage output+healing for only 100 gas is just to insane.
First of all, 18+6 (I was also confused...) still 2 shots scvs. 18+4 three shots scvs. (22+22 < 45)
And only early hellbat is the problem. If you nerf hellbat overall too much, it will effect late games too (esp PvT)
You know what? Fu*k it! Give Missile turrets stim. Call it "Missile barrage". Problem solved.
f what. Hellbat? I might do with medivac
You can try for yourself (in editor) and post your replay (has to be at least 3. TvT, TvZ, TvP) on either Bnet or here. If ppl think that is good, they will buy it. the obvious problem in your argument is that you think one solution will fix this. I myself posted some suggestions to discuss (not perfect), not an easy 'solution' that seems to work but ruins all other match up.
On July 06 2013 08:46 dohgg wrote: Well thank god no one on this thread has any part with blizzard balancing team, since i have heard some really crappy suggestions (lol, remove light tag from scvs).
People need to wake up... Hellbats are pretty shitty unit! especially in TvT! and why do i say that? because they are freaking slow!!! and therefore suppose to be so terrible vs ranged units... and guess what? terrans have quite some ranged units... "Yes.. but with medivac drop..." now we're getting into something.... imo, the only solution will be cargo 8.. will that ruin hellbat drop into non exist play? Probably... But on the other hand it wont hurt their well balanced places in TvZ and TvP compositions...
Some crappy suggestion = cargo 8 hellbat rofl. Dude are you on crack. or are you just a retard.
Well lol... and why does 8 cargo makes no sense? because the unit doesn't have a unit model like the size of a thor, collosus or ultra? let me remind you my dear friend... we're playing a professional RTS game which the first priority of things that should make sense is not the way things look, but the balancing of things.
About opinions which will delay the production or tech of hellbats - imo, time isn't the biggest issue, we still see some pretty late hellbats drops (usually involved like 3 medivac drops all together) which still make a significant damage even though theres a bunker + missle turret ready to defend.
This is a huge nerf to Hellbat drop in general. I thought the problem was the timing of the drop(s).
+1. That's why everyone's brain is toasted... SO HARD TO FIX THIS DAM PROBLEM
What's there to fix? The pros have no problem, Mechanically there's no problem and economically there's no problem!
Korean GMs already have no problem doing trading blows style (no defenses). Mechanically, hellbats and hellions are the same unit, conical damage vs. line-of-sight, slow-&-steady vs. fast and furious. Economically they BOTH can toast an entire mineral line in an instant.
Seems the pro-nerf folks have short memory spans forgetting hellion/banshee mid-game wars back in 2011 before that meta was figured out...
On July 06 2013 08:46 dohgg wrote: Well thank god no one on this thread has any part with blizzard balancing team, since i have heard some really crappy suggestions (lol, remove light tag from scvs).
People need to wake up... Hellbats are pretty shitty unit! especially in TvT! and why do i say that? because they are freaking slow!!! and therefore suppose to be so terrible vs ranged units... and guess what? terrans have quite some ranged units... "Yes.. but with medivac drop..." now we're getting into something.... imo, the only solution will be cargo 8.. will that ruin hellbat drop into non exist play? Probably... But on the other hand it wont hurt their well balanced places in TvZ and TvP compositions...
Some crappy suggestion = cargo 8 hellbat rofl. Dude are you on crack. or are you just a retard.
Well lol... and why does 8 cargo makes no sense? because the unit doesn't have a unit model like the size of a thor, collosus or ultra? let me remind you my dear friend... we're playing a professional RTS game which the first priority of things that should make sense is not the way things look, but the balancing of things.
About opinions which will delay the production or tech of hellbats - imo, time isn't the biggest issue, we still see some pretty late hellbats drops (usually involved like 3 medivac drops all together) which still make a significant damage even though theres a bunker + missle turret ready to defend.
This is a huge nerf to Hellbat drop in general. I thought the problem was the timing of the drop(s).
+1. That's why everyone's brain is toasted... SO HARD TO FIX THIS DAM PROBLEM
What's there to fix? The pros have no problem, Mechanically there's no problem and economically there's no problem!
Korean GMs already have no problem doing trading blows style (no defenses). Mechanically, hellbats and hellions are the same unit, conical damage vs. line-of-sight, slow-&-steady vs. fast and furious. Economically they BOTH can toast an entire mineral line in an instant.
Seems the pro-nerf folks have short memory spans forgetting hellion/banshee mid-game wars back in 2011 before that meta was figured out...
Ok. Hellbat drop might be ok in some sense. But because it is a very good harassment, EVERYONE USES IT IN TvT. If you don't have problem with that, fine. but I'm not okay with it. (maybe not everyone uses helldrop but anyone can tell that most pro ppl, esp korean pros uses them very often)
On July 06 2013 08:46 dohgg wrote: Well thank god no one on this thread has any part with blizzard balancing team, since i have heard some really crappy suggestions (lol, remove light tag from scvs).
People need to wake up... Hellbats are pretty shitty unit! especially in TvT! and why do i say that? because they are freaking slow!!! and therefore suppose to be so terrible vs ranged units... and guess what? terrans have quite some ranged units... "Yes.. but with medivac drop..." now we're getting into something.... imo, the only solution will be cargo 8.. will that ruin hellbat drop into non exist play? Probably... But on the other hand it wont hurt their well balanced places in TvZ and TvP compositions...
Some crappy suggestion = cargo 8 hellbat rofl. Dude are you on crack. or are you just a retard.
Well lol... and why does 8 cargo makes no sense? because the unit doesn't have a unit model like the size of a thor, collosus or ultra? let me remind you my dear friend... we're playing a professional RTS game which the first priority of things that should make sense is not the way things look, but the balancing of things.
About opinions which will delay the production or tech of hellbats - imo, time isn't the biggest issue, we still see some pretty late hellbats drops (usually involved like 3 medivac drops all together) which still make a significant damage even though theres a bunker + missle turret ready to defend.
This is a huge nerf to Hellbat drop in general. I thought the problem was the timing of the drop(s).
+1. That's why everyone's brain is toasted... SO HARD TO FIX THIS DAM PROBLEM
What's there to fix? The pros have no problem, Mechanically there's no problem and economically there's no problem!
Korean GMs already have no problem doing trading blows style (no defenses). Mechanically, hellbats and hellions are the same unit, conical damage vs. line-of-sight, slow-&-steady vs. fast and furious. Economically they BOTH can toast an entire mineral line in an instant.
Seems the pro-nerf folks have short memory spans forgetting hellion/banshee mid-game wars back in 2011 before that meta was figured out...
Ok. Hellbat drop might be ok in some sense. But because it is a very good harassment, EVERYONE USES IT IN TvT. If you don't have problem with that, fine. but I'm not okay with it. (maybe not everyone uses helldrop but anyone can tell that most pro ppl, esp korean pros uses them very often)
Edit: and hellion got nerf at the end of 2011
How is that bad? Zerg open ling/bane all the time then trade into muta/ling/bling and so on... If you want hellbat nerfed, banshee /alterative harass needs to be reopened.
The only problem I have with hellbats is that even if you take minimal to no damage. the amount you had to invest in units/static D to crush the drops is usually enough that the terran player is not put behind for doing no damage
On July 07 2013 02:48 Eazypeezy wrote: The only problem I have with hellbats is that even if you take minimal to no damage. the amount you had to invest in units/static D to crush the drops is usually enough that the terran player is not put behind for doing no damage
Does anyone know why Blizz make Hellbat produced right out of the factory with the Armory? I remember it has something to do with early aggression by Protoss but I'm not sure.
The reason I brought this up is that since TvT Hellbat is too early which led to super effective drops, and that Transformation Servo is virtually non-existent in any match up, wouldn't forcing TS for Hellbat to exist help delay the timing further and allowed opponents to get a more effective defence? I also think that the upgrade should be moved to Armory instead, which leaves the scouting Hellbat tech essentially the same. Plus it would be a nice bonus that all the animators' effort in making a transforming Hellion wouldn't have gone to waste. And since there is no nerf or buff to stats, it is still as deadly as ever and doesn't effect any late game scenario.
I think one reason that Blizzard is a little hesitant to nerf hellbats so quickly is that they do in fact fill many holes in the terran army. They are helpful both against zerg and protoss. I don't believe people call them imba outside of drops, so nerfing them will also nerf the good aspects of hellbats which blizzard originally intended to help terran out.
Removing the biotag as some have suggested would help with the drops; however, it would also nerf the bio army when hellbats are mixed in. Hellbats were meant to be able to be mixed in to both bio and mech armies (apparent by the healing aspect of the hellbats) and therefore should remain as such.
So again, we look to the drop as being the main the problem and specifically, the boost ability of the medivacs. This is what allows hell bats to be so effective as it doesn't really matter if there are defenses set up because one can just boost over them and still deal a great amount of economic damage. If the defending player pulls the scvs, it still doesn't matter too much as the hellbats just get loaded back up and then boosted over to them again. When the army comes to deal with the hellbats, they can just be loaded up and boosted away so that they can return again when the army is gone making it so the defending player has a hard time leaving their base (going viking/phoenix/muta would stop this but then that also confines the defending players options and they would always have to do this which again is another win for the hellbat player).
In dealing with the medivac speedboost, you cannot simply take it away as this is a huge nerf to terran. Bio drops will pretty much become obsolete (except maybe in tvt) as zerg and protoss have both been given better defensive options (faster mutas and mothership core). Being that dropping has always been a staple of the Terran race which makes the race both fun to play and exciting to watch from a spectator perspective, disabling the boost and rendering drops very ineffective would also be a bad option.
Given everything that I have said so far, it should become obvious what the best solution is: Disable the boosting ability of medivacs while a hellbat is in them. Let's look at some of the implications of this. Less defenses will be necessary for dealing with the drops. The medivac will have to be better controlled because slowly flying over a turret will result in more damage to the medivac making the hellbat drops more risky. The opponent will have more time to react to the drop in the first place as the drop is slower. Once the workers are pulled, the hellbats won't be able to be loaded into the medivac and easily catch up to the workers again. This sounds like a plausible solution that will fix the problem with hellbat drops without weakening the Terran army as a whole.
As a last note: This nerf would definitely make hellbat drops be much less effective. Hellbat drops would still have the potential to deal big damage as the units themselves have not been altered; but, they would be easier to deal with from the defender's side. It is even quite possible that they would not even be worth doing again (this would have to be tested to see if it's truly the case). However, having an option for a terran to go hellbat drops is still good (as more options for a race is always better from a player's and spectator's perspective). If the nerf completely gets rid of hellbat drops, an option could be to remove the armory requirement again for the hellbats. That way, they can still be an early game option that a terran can go for and the opponent would have to be prepared for accordingly. Hellbat drops would still be able to do decent in late game scenarios as many things are happening at once and the defender might not have the apm/map awareness to react to the hellbat drops while doing the other tasks required of them and big damage could still occur. Static defenses would still be needed at those further away expansions (as they are now pre-nerf) to deny the drops which is still good for the hellbat player as the other player had to invest in something.
I believe this could be a great solution to the problem at hand and should be contemplated further.
On July 07 2013 04:56 GUNZx5 wrote: I think one reason that Blizzard is a little hesitant to nerf hellbats so quickly is that they do in fact fill many holes in the terran army. They are helpful both against zerg and protoss. I don't believe people call them imba outside of drops, so nerfing them will also nerf the good aspects of hellbats which blizzard originally intended to help terran out.
Removing the biotag as some have suggested would help with the drops; however, it would also nerf the bio army when hellbats are mixed in. Hellbats were meant to be able to be mixed in to both bio and mech armies (apparent by the healing aspect of the hellbats) and therefore should remain as such.
So again, we look to the drop as being the main the problem and specifically, the boost ability of the medivacs. This is what allows hell bats to be so effective as it doesn't really matter if there are defenses set up because one can just boost over them and still deal a great amount of economic damage. If the defending player pulls the scvs, it still doesn't matter too much as the hellbats just get loaded back up and then boosted over to them again. When the army comes to deal with the hellbats, they can just be loaded up and boosted away so that they can return again when the army is gone making it so the defending player has a hard time leaving their base (going viking/phoenix/muta would stop this but then that also confines the defending players options and they would always have to do this which again is another win for the hellbat player).
In dealing with the medivac speedboost, you cannot simply take it away as this is a huge nerf to terran. Bio drops will pretty much become obsolete (except maybe in tvt) as zerg and protoss have both been given better defensive options (faster mutas and mothership core). Being that dropping has always been a staple of the Terran race which makes the race both fun to play and exciting to watch from a spectator perspective, disabling the boost and rendering drops very ineffective would also be a bad option.
Given everything that I have said so far, it should become obvious what the best solution is: Disable the boosting ability of medivacs while a hellbat is in them. Let's look at some of the implications of this. Less defenses will be necessary for dealing with the drops. The medivac will have to be better controlled because slowly flying over a turret will result in more damage to the medivac making the hellbat drops more risky. The opponent will have more time to react to the drop in the first place as the drop is slower. Once the workers are pulled, the hellbats won't be able to be loaded into the medivac and easily catch up to the workers again. This sounds like a plausible solution that will fix the problem with hellbat drops without weakening the Terran army as a whole.
As a last note: This nerf would definitely make hellbat drops be much less effective. Hellbat drops would still have the potential to deal big damage as the units themselves have not been altered; but, they would be easier to deal with from the defender's side. It is even quite possible that they would not even be worth doing again (this would have to be tested to see if it's truly the case). However, having an option for a terran to go hellbat drops is still good (as more options for a race is always better from a player's and spectator's perspective). If the nerf completely gets rid of hellbat drops, an option could be to remove the armory requirement again for the hellbats. That way, they can still be an early game option that a terran can go for and the opponent would have to be prepared for accordingly. Hellbat drops would still be able to do decent in late game scenarios as many things are happening at once and the defender might not have the apm/map awareness to react to the hellbat drops while doing the other tasks required of them and big damage could still occur. Static defenses would still be needed at those further away expansions (as they are now pre-nerf) to deny the drops which is still good for the hellbat player as the other player had to invest in something.
I believe this could be a great solution to the problem at hand and should be contemplated further.
I really like your idea... and i am pretty sure it'll not make hellbat drops suddenly not viable.. as i need to remind everyone how terrans drops were still super popular even in WOL w/o the boost.
If we're trying to make a comparison from WOL to HOTS, when we actually think about it, terrans as much as they were buffed aggressively they weren't buffed defensively, unlike nexus cannon or mutas speed - so saying hellbat drop won't be viable tvt if this suggestion will come true is nonsense.
appriciate the effort but this is a pretty off simulation
theres nothing killing the medivac, at least have a viking do it. 3 marauders is not the daily anti hellbat. its usually 3-4 hellbats, 6~ hellions or a bunker with marines
the simulation u have there is just a bunch of low damage high health units fighting each other to make the medivac healing that more significant ^^
the healing does help a bit, but its not a must by any means. the big part is that you slam intto their mineral line, often without risking losing the medivac all too much. drop the hellbats and try catch as many scvs as possible before they run away. once that is over its about just delying mining time with your hellbats maybe running them around in circles or trying to kill more scvs. the turret and viking is there to make sure the medivac isnt sticking around for any of this, thats why i think the healing is not any significant ingredient to hellbat drop in tvt
I wonder if maybe making workers None Light units would fix this (or a new type of unit called "worker" or something) aswell as so many other random silly hits on economy such as Hellbat drops Random coinflipy hellion runbys 10 pool baneling and baneling attacks in general ZVZ baneling drops though they're not common at all
while changing the phoenix and blue flame slightly to make them viable as economy harassment unit
On July 07 2013 20:48 stava88 wrote: I wonder if maybe making workers None Light units would fix this (or a new type of unit called "worker" or something) aswell as so many other random silly hits on economy such as Hellbat drops Random coinflipy hellion runbys 10 pool baneling and baneling attacks in general ZVZ baneling drops though they're not common at all
while changing the phoenix and blue flame slightly to make them viable as economy harassment unit
That's a very convoluted change just to fix hellbat drops.
appriciate the effort but this is a pretty off simulation
theres nothing killing the medivac, at least have a viking do it. 3 marauders is not the daily anti hellbat. its usually 3-4 hellbats, 6~ hellions or a bunker with marines
the simulation u have there is just a bunch of low damage high health units fighting each other to make the medivac healing that more significant ^^
the healing does help a bit, but its not a must by any means. the big part is that you slam intto their mineral line, often without risking losing the medivac all too much. drop the hellbats and try catch as many scvs as possible before they run away. once that is over its about just delying mining time with your hellbats maybe running them around in circles or trying to kill more scvs. the turret and viking is there to make sure the medivac isnt sticking around for any of this, thats why i think the healing is not any significant ingredient to hellbat drop in tvt
oops. I actually posted the vid to prevent ppl to suggest bio tag removal as a solution. Sorry. if that made more confusion to people. I will remove it.
Edit: But it still shows that even losing hellbat, it still kills enough.
On July 06 2013 08:46 dohgg wrote: Well thank god no one on this thread has any part with blizzard balancing team, since i have heard some really crappy suggestions (lol, remove light tag from scvs).
People need to wake up... Hellbats are pretty shitty unit! especially in TvT! and why do i say that? because they are freaking slow!!! and therefore suppose to be so terrible vs ranged units... and guess what? terrans have quite some ranged units... "Yes.. but with medivac drop..." now we're getting into something.... imo, the only solution will be cargo 8.. will that ruin hellbat drop into non exist play? Probably... But on the other hand it wont hurt their well balanced places in TvZ and TvP compositions...
Some crappy suggestion = cargo 8 hellbat rofl. Dude are you on crack. or are you just a retard.
Well lol... and why does 8 cargo makes no sense? because the unit doesn't have a unit model like the size of a thor, collosus or ultra? let me remind you my dear friend... we're playing a professional RTS game which the first priority of things that should make sense is not the way things look, but the balancing of things.
About opinions which will delay the production or tech of hellbats - imo, time isn't the biggest issue, we still see some pretty late hellbats drops (usually involved like 3 medivac drops all together) which still make a significant damage even though theres a bunker + missle turret ready to defend.
This is a huge nerf to Hellbat drop in general. I thought the problem was the timing of the drop(s).
+1. That's why everyone's brain is toasted... SO HARD TO FIX THIS DAM PROBLEM
What's there to fix? The pros have no problem, Mechanically there's no problem and economically there's no problem!
Korean GMs already have no problem doing trading blows style (no defenses). Mechanically, hellbats and hellions are the same unit, conical damage vs. line-of-sight, slow-&-steady vs. fast and furious. Economically they BOTH can toast an entire mineral line in an instant.
Seems the pro-nerf folks have short memory spans forgetting hellion/banshee mid-game wars back in 2011 before that meta was figured out...
Ok. Hellbat drop might be ok in some sense. But because it is a very good harassment, EVERYONE USES IT IN TvT. If you don't have problem with that, fine. but I'm not okay with it. (maybe not everyone uses helldrop but anyone can tell that most pro ppl, esp korean pros uses them very often)
Edit: and hellion got nerf at the end of 2011
How is that bad? Zerg open ling/bane all the time then trade into muta/ling/bling and so on... If you want hellbat nerfed, banshee /alterative harass needs to be reopened.
yeah. more variety, more the fun! (I actually hate current zerg tactic that there is not much difference compare to wol esp ZvZ.) And i'm pretty sure terran has some other harrassment viable but just overshadowed by hellbat. bio drops are still good! (maybe buff banshee little but hell no with Blizzard suggestion)
On July 06 2013 11:03 IamHobbyless wrote: What about carbo 6 so you could load up a mines or something?
I personally think any change to cargo space or even making impossible to load should be the last solution to be implemented.
Making hellbat to have 4 cargo spaces is already weird (but still ok since baneling takes double of zergling space). I don't want 2 supply unit takes that big space just to make the balance right.
And I think making hellbat unable to load is going against game logic. All ground units that are mobile should be loaded to 'dropships' (overlord, WP, medivac). seized tank is not an exception because it cannot be moved. burrowed units might be exceptions but... I don't have to explain why
That is why nerfing to 18+4 light than upgrade blue flame to get full power is the best one I could think of. Hellbat is soooooooooo overpowered in TvT EARLY game and to a less degree in early TvZ and TvP. That's why making early-mid game hellbat to be less effective OVERALL (not only drops) would helps other match ups as well. It won't affect the mid-late game that much than other nerfs. And hellbat still two shots drones and probes not scv (3 shots).
If you think hellbat is too nerfed by this, make hellbat just a transformation of hellion (like viking) with no armory requirement (nor techlab). Blizzard made armory requirement for hellbat because it was too powerful for early game. I think with this nerf and buff, hellbat can come faster but less effective in early game (which what everyone wants)
Edit: If you think no armory requirement is too imba, maybe make it require armory but without transformation servo upgrade. so hellbats are no longer built from factory but just a transformation of hellion
You have nothing of substance to disagree with increasing the cargo space used by hellbats. There is nothing except that it is "already weird". And you, the king of balance, don't want to make 2 supply unit take BIG SPACE. OH NO, BIG SPACE SO BAD.
You know what's weird? Nerfing hellbat damage rather than drop capacity because hellbatdrops are OP.
okay, okay.... But are you sure that only the hellbatdrops are problem? I don't think so. That's why I have suggested mine. If everyone (or at least majority of the ppl) think early hellbat itself now (with full dmg) is ok in TvT, your opinion might be valid.
The increase in drop space is the right way to approach it. It may not be enough. But it increases the cost of doing hellbat drops. Now you have to risk one more medivac to do drops. Early on, you will need one more production cycle of medivacs to drop 2 hellbats rather than wait on 1 medivac. Delaying earliest 2-hellbat drop by 42 seconds might not sound like much, but that's the kind of incremental increase that I think is prudent.
How about this? An upgrade in armory that takes 100 seconds. Without it, hellbats cannot be loaded up into medivacs. That will delay hellbat drops if you think hellbat drops are fine in mid-game and late-game.
But hellbat on the ground in early-game is not an issue. :\
On July 06 2013 11:03 IamHobbyless wrote: What about carbo 6 so you could load up a mines or something?
I personally think any change to cargo space or even making impossible to load should be the last solution to be implemented.
Making hellbat to have 4 cargo spaces is already weird (but still ok since baneling takes double of zergling space). I don't want 2 supply unit takes that big space just to make the balance right.
And I think making hellbat unable to load is going against game logic. All ground units that are mobile should be loaded to 'dropships' (overlord, WP, medivac). seized tank is not an exception because it cannot be moved. burrowed units might be exceptions but... I don't have to explain why
That is why nerfing to 18+4 light than upgrade blue flame to get full power is the best one I could think of. Hellbat is soooooooooo overpowered in TvT EARLY game and to a less degree in early TvZ and TvP. That's why making early-mid game hellbat to be less effective OVERALL (not only drops) would helps other match ups as well. It won't affect the mid-late game that much than other nerfs. And hellbat still two shots drones and probes not scv (3 shots).
If you think hellbat is too nerfed by this, make hellbat just a transformation of hellion (like viking) with no armory requirement (nor techlab). Blizzard made armory requirement for hellbat because it was too powerful for early game. I think with this nerf and buff, hellbat can come faster but less effective in early game (which what everyone wants)
Edit: If you think no armory requirement is too imba, maybe make it require armory but without transformation servo upgrade. so hellbats are no longer built from factory but just a transformation of hellion
You have nothing of substance to disagree with increasing the cargo space used by hellbats. There is nothing except that it is "already weird". And you, the king of balance, don't want to make 2 supply unit take BIG SPACE. OH NO, BIG SPACE SO BAD.
You know what's weird? Nerfing hellbat damage rather than drop capacity because hellbatdrops are OP.
okay, okay.... But are you sure that only the hellbatdrops are problem? I don't think so. That's why I have suggested mine. If everyone (or at least majority of the ppl) think early hellbat itself now (with full dmg) is ok in TvT, your opinion might be valid.
The increase in drop space is the right way to approach it. It may not be enough. But it increases the cost of doing hellbat drops. Now you have to risk one more medivac to do drops. Early on, you will need one more production cycle of medivacs to drop 2 hellbats rather than wait on 1 medivac. Delaying earliest 2-hellbat drop by 42 seconds might not sound like much, but that's the kind of incremental increase that I think is prudent.
How about this? An upgrade in armory (with minimal cost like 50/50 for warp tech) that takes 100 seconds. Without it, hellbats cannot be loaded up into medivacs. That will delay hellbat drops if you think hellbat drops are fine in mid-game and late-game; and a problem early-game only.
But hellbat on the ground in early-game is not an issue in anyone's eyes.
i think one of the issues that hasn't been addressed too much (at least that i've seen with minor research) is the fact that speedvacs allow hellbats to chase fleeing SCVs with ease. the surprise element of boosting into an enemy mineral line is much less of an issue than not being able to even save your workers if your defense isn't sufficient enough to deflect the medivac at all.
so here's yet another community suggestion to change hellbats from yours truly:
change the current auto-attack on hellbats into an activated ability, similar to the void ray's prismatic alignment. lasts 5-10 seconds. give it 30 cooldown.*
new auto-attack is lower damage but longer range (and maybe smaller splash radius), so as to improve their effectiveness as buffer units in large armies.
while i'm sure people are tired of having so many "stims" implemented right now, this seems like a decent way to allow everybody to still utilize hellbat drops, but they are also slightly harder to execute/guarantee damage. adding hellbat stim would also make hellbat's role in larger engagements pretty interesting as well.
On July 08 2013 14:43 megapants wrote: i think one of the issues that hasn't been addressed too much (at least that i've seen with minor research) is the fact that speedvacs allow hellbats to chase fleeing SCVs with ease. the surprise element of boosting into an enemy mineral line is much less of an issue than not being able to even save your workers if your defense isn't sufficient enough to deflect the medivac at all.
so here's yet another community suggestion to change hellbats from yours truly:
change the current auto-attack on hellbats into an activated ability, similar to the void ray's prismatic alignment. lasts 5-10 seconds. give it 30 cooldown.*
new auto-attack is lower damage but longer range (and maybe smaller splash radius), so as to improve their effectiveness as buffer units in large armies.
while i'm sure people are tired of having so many "stims" implemented right now, this seems like a decent way to allow everybody to still utilize hellbat drops, but they are also slightly harder to execute/guarantee damage. adding hellbat stim would also make hellbat's role in larger engagements pretty interesting as well.
*numbers are pulled out of my ass
It adds another burden for Terrans who wish to use hellbats in larger engagements without dropping them. If hellbats were really overpowered on the ground without medivacs boosting them, it would be worthwhile considering.
EPT
e.t.c). Yes, hellbat drops openers are one of the strongest openers for terran. But why is that so hard to nerf it for Blizzard?
