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On July 06 2013 17:08 D_K_night wrote:
Strelok is right. Hellbats are only an issue in TvT. Sometimes the most subtle tweaks are the most effective. What if Hi-sec auto tracking was rolled into the turret(not requiring an upgrade)?
This means that the turrets have automatically longer range and nail the medivacs with 1 extra shot before they get to land the hellbats.
If they make that tweak, and remove the bio tag, I believe that this is all the changes required. Hellbat drops should not be completely removed from the game like so many of you want. It should still be usable and still be an option.
I can see your point but
-turret buff will affect ANYTHING THAT FLIES and I don't think that will be implemented.
-removing bio tag is not enough to stop hellbat drop (still kills enough).
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Someone in the community please get David Kim on to SOTG or Meta again. I remember Incontrol asked DK about Hellbat and he thinks it was fine....
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Hellion
80 health
8+6 damage
5 range
4.25 speed
Hellbat
135 health
18+12 damage
2 range
2.25 speed (4.25 with mediboost)
can be healed
Me thinks its too much worth for the gascost (to cheap). I believe a 100 health and a lower 18+6 damage (3 hits instead of 2 hits against scv's) could solve it. It would still be worth it to build one, but it would be more of a bio unit that can be healed. This because the 135 health +more damage output+healing for only 100 gas is just to insane.
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Hello. i think a upgrade to delay early drops especialy in tvt would be try-able.
like an upgrade that takes 30sek to build and cost25/25 recources.
Whit the only function to make tvt less random.
i liked helibats. But i think its to low effort to
do it and even the best fail to defend it.
The medivacboost is what makes hits all more intresting i tgink. never nerf!
/i
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On July 06 2013 09:20 Lock0n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 08:46 dohgg wrote:
Well thank god no one on this thread has any part with blizzard balancing team, since i have heard some really crappy suggestions (lol, remove light tag from scvs).
People need to wake up... Hellbats are pretty shitty unit! especially in TvT!
and why do i say that? because they are freaking slow!!! and therefore suppose to be so terrible vs ranged units... and guess what? terrans have quite some ranged units...
"Yes.. but with medivac drop..."
now we're getting into something.... imo, the only solution will be cargo 8.. will that ruin hellbat drop into non exist play? Probably... But on the other hand it wont hurt their well balanced places in TvZ and TvP compositions... Some crappy suggestion = cargo 8 hellbat rofl. Dude are you on crack. or are you just a retard.
Well lol... and why does 8 cargo makes no sense? because the unit doesn't have a unit model like the size of a thor, collosus or ultra? let me remind you my dear friend... we're playing a professional RTS game which the first priority of things that should make sense is not the way things look, but the balancing of things.
About opinions which will delay the production or tech of hellbats - imo, time isn't the biggest issue, we still see some pretty late hellbats drops (usually involved like 3 medivac drops all together) which still make a significant damage even though theres a bunker + missle turret ready to defend.
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On July 06 2013 17:43 govie wrote:
Hellion
80 health
8+6 damage
5 range
4.25 speed
Hellbat
135 health
18+12 damage
2 range
2.25 speed (4.25 with mediboost)
can be healed
Me thinks its too much worth for the gascost (to cheap). I believe a 100 health and a lower 18+6 damage (3 hits instead of 2 hits against scv's) could solve it. It would still be worth it to build one, but it would be more of a bio unit that can be healed. This because the 135 health +more damage output+healing for only 100 gas is just to insane.
Except that would mean then there's no point in building a HB considering that marauders and reapers are more cost effective. Barracks w/ tech lab build faster and cost LESS than a reactor'd factory. Add the mobility from Stim and jump packs and hellbats will become as common as walker Vikings. The point of hellbats was to combat mass 3/3 tier one units past 30min for the much slower production rate mech Terran.
Right now Terran is at a position of deterring mass T1 remax wars when mass hellbats are out.
A 3/3 hellbat is a monster past 30min. Add in medivacs and any TvX opponent must have AA buildings and scouting to fend off hellbat backstabs. This is a good thing. Players will be rewarded for having good pre-game sim city 2/3/4/5++ base layout plans IN ADDITION to proper main army control, production and splits.
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On July 06 2013 17:43 govie wrote:
Hellion
80 health
8+6 damage
5 range
4.25 speed
Hellbat
135 health
18+12 damage
2 range
2.25 speed (4.25 with mediboost)
can be healed
Me thinks its too much worth for the gascost (to cheap). I believe a 100 health and a lower 18+6 damage (3 hits instead of 2 hits against scv's) could solve it. It would still be worth it to build one, but it would be more of a bio unit that can be healed. This because the 135 health +more damage output+healing for only 100 gas is just to insane.
First of all, 18+6 (I was also confused...) still 2 shots scvs. 18+4 three shots scvs. (22+22 < 45)
And only early hellbat is the problem. If you nerf hellbat overall too much, it will effect late games too (esp PvT)
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On July 06 2013 18:31 SsDrKosS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 17:43 govie wrote:
Hellion
80 health
8+6 damage
5 range
4.25 speed
Hellbat
135 health
18+12 damage
2 range
2.25 speed (4.25 with mediboost)
can be healed
Me thinks its too much worth for the gascost (to cheap). I believe a 100 health and a lower 18+6 damage (3 hits instead of 2 hits against scv's) could solve it. It would still be worth it to build one, but it would be more of a bio unit that can be healed. This because the 135 health +more damage output+healing for only 100 gas is just to insane.
First of all, 18+6 (I was also confused...) still 2 shots scvs. 18+4 three shots scvs. (22+22 < 45) And only early hellbat is the problem. If you nerf hellbat overall too much, it will effect late games too (esp PvT)
You know what? Fu*k it!
Give Missile turrets stim. Call it "Missile barrage".
Problem solved.
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replace them with perdition turrets that work like spine crawlers except don't need creep : )))
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On July 06 2013 10:56 jkim91 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 10:17 Snowbear wrote:On July 05 2013 13:08 Blargh wrote:On July 05 2013 11:46 plogamer wrote:
Rather than balance hellbat drops, Blizzard can just kill hellbat drops.
Remove and the hellbat transformation upgrade, make it built in. Hellions will be like Vikings now. 1 unit-name, 2 modes right from production. Add a debuff called "incompatibility"; since the new transformation is a recent tech in SC2 lore, hellions in battle transformation (hellbat) cannot be loaded into medivacs. Hellbats are too strong in normal fights too buddy. Zealots and marine tank just flat-out die when there are hellbats mixed in. Also, hellbat marauder pushes (I believe Polt did one or two during MLG) versus Zerg are incredibly strong. Dropping them requires some micro, but using them in engagements requires roughly 0. Zealots might actually require more micro than hellbats. They are both incredibly a-movish. Hellbats are the shittiest designed units out there. Whoever thought of them as a new unit is a total idiot. Plus, they are incredibly tanky and do a ton of damage. Shit, I see hellbats trolling SIEGE tanks. It's just a horribly made unit. BUT THEN, THEY REQUIRE ONLY MINERALS, LOL! You're in denial here, plogamer. Oh really? Hellbats are 1amovish? Every terran unit has to be code S micro intensive, right? Meanwhile zergs are 1a'ing every single unit. And if hellbats were so imba, then explain me why we don't see terran dominate tournaments? Take a look: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/individual-leaguesAnd polt his marauder hellbat is so strong thanks to the damage done by the hellbat drops. Take away those drops and his push is MUCH weaker. Hellbat are imba in a way that it breaks TvT, not others. And zergs do not 1a every single unit.
No, really no. Hellbat DROPS are breaking tvt. Without the drops, bio is fine. It's insane how hard it is to play against a good bioplayer who abuses the speedvacs (see innovation v flash, before they realised hellbat drops are imba).
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On July 06 2013 12:16 SsDrKosS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 11:03 IamHobbyless wrote:
What about carbo 6 so you could load up a mines or something? I personally think any change to cargo space or even making impossible to load should be the last solution to be implemented. Making hellbat to have 4 cargo spaces is already weird (but still ok since baneling takes double of zergling space). I don't want 2 supply unit takes that big space just to make the balance right.
Yeah, when they make it cargo 8, the game will be unplayable. It will feel so weird that esports will die. I mean, cargo 8? Really? So damn weird! Impossible! Unacceptable! We want a big damage nerf so we can never see them again!
Then there is left: the widow mine (but zergs already found the way to beat them), the speedvac (that's the next target after the big hellbat nerf) and the raven (that's for 2014 to whine about). And then we finally get our 70% ZvT WoL winrate back, because we LOVED that! Take away all the hots terran options! Terran has a unit that doesn't require code S micro? NERF IT!
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On July 06 2013 18:26 dohgg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 09:20 Lock0n wrote:On July 06 2013 08:46 dohgg wrote:
Well thank god no one on this thread has any part with blizzard balancing team, since i have heard some really crappy suggestions (lol, remove light tag from scvs).
People need to wake up... Hellbats are pretty shitty unit! especially in TvT!
and why do i say that? because they are freaking slow!!! and therefore suppose to be so terrible vs ranged units... and guess what? terrans have quite some ranged units...
"Yes.. but with medivac drop..."
now we're getting into something.... imo, the only solution will be cargo 8.. will that ruin hellbat drop into non exist play? Probably... But on the other hand it wont hurt their well balanced places in TvZ and TvP compositions... Some crappy suggestion = cargo 8 hellbat rofl. Dude are you on crack. or are you just a retard. Well lol... and why does 8 cargo makes no sense? because the unit doesn't have a unit model like the size of a thor, collosus or ultra? let me remind you my dear friend... we're playing a professional RTS game which the first priority of things that should make sense is not the way things look, but the balancing of things. About opinions which will delay the production or tech of hellbats - imo, time isn't the biggest issue, we still see some pretty late hellbats drops (usually involved like 3 medivac drops all together) which still make a significant damage even though theres a bunker + missle turret ready to defend.
Actually you can argue for it quite easily, its taller than anything else that goes in a medivac. You could undersling them like the thor. But as others have said at the same cost as a helion it has double the hitting power. They need a damage nerf or a cost boost.
I think it should go back to being only able to produce helions and transform them once the servos is researched. It'd delay them and otherwise there's no point the transform being there as hellbats are better in almost all scenarios.
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As a master player who plays my fair share of random, I think hellbats are fine. As DK night says, perhaps a buff to turrets so hellbats don't completely dominate tvt because that's the real problem. Playing bio is no longer viable in tvt because hellbats require no ups and are so cost effective. While with bio, you need stim, combat shield, and 1-1.
I really hope blizzard doesn't listen to the masses and nerf hellbats because most of the qq is coming from people who hopped on the band wagon and don't even play more than 1 race...
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Terran not imba LOL ok, only 1 dropped out of ro32 in the only WCS that matters.
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On July 06 2013 19:12 mostevil wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 18:26 dohgg wrote:On July 06 2013 09:20 Lock0n wrote:On July 06 2013 08:46 dohgg wrote:
Well thank god no one on this thread has any part with blizzard balancing team, since i have heard some really crappy suggestions (lol, remove light tag from scvs).
People need to wake up... Hellbats are pretty shitty unit! especially in TvT!
and why do i say that? because they are freaking slow!!! and therefore suppose to be so terrible vs ranged units... and guess what? terrans have quite some ranged units...
"Yes.. but with medivac drop..."
now we're getting into something.... imo, the only solution will be cargo 8.. will that ruin hellbat drop into non exist play? Probably... But on the other hand it wont hurt their well balanced places in TvZ and TvP compositions... Some crappy suggestion = cargo 8 hellbat rofl. Dude are you on crack. or are you just a retard. Well lol... and why does 8 cargo makes no sense? because the unit doesn't have a unit model like the size of a thor, collosus or ultra? let me remind you my dear friend... we're playing a professional RTS game which the first priority of things that should make sense is not the way things look, but the balancing of things. About opinions which will delay the production or tech of hellbats - imo, time isn't the biggest issue, we still see some pretty late hellbats drops (usually involved like 3 medivac drops all together) which still make a significant damage even though theres a bunker + missle turret ready to defend. Actually you can argue for it quite easily, its taller than anything else that goes in a medivac. You could undersling them like the thor. But as others have said at the same cost as a helion it has double the hitting power. They need a damage nerf or a cost boost. I think it should go back to being only able to produce helions and transform them once the servos is researched. It'd delay them and otherwise there's no point the transform being there as hellbats are better in almost all scenarios.
Unless you double the damage output of a hellbat, no.
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On July 06 2013 20:08 Fleuria wrote:
Terran not imba LOL ok, only 1 dropped out of ro32 in the only WCS that matters.
Perhaps they played better than their opponents?
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On July 06 2013 20:00 TRaFFiC wrote:
As a master player who plays my fair share of random, I think hellbats are fine. As DK night says, perhaps a buff to turrets so hellbats don't completely dominate tvt because that's the real problem. Playing bio is no longer viable in tvt because hellbats require no ups and are so cost effective. While with bio, you need stim, combat shield, and 1-1.
I really hope blizzard doesn't listen to the masses and nerf hellbats because most of the qq is coming from people who hopped on the band wagon and don't even play more than 1 race...
I'd argue most the qq is coming from zerg and protosses who are hoping the nerf spills onto their plate(when mech is gimmicky at best in both those mus).
A 18+4 nerf might be the best suggestion yet imo. That being said, I think they need to look at the transformation servos upgrade again and lower it to like 50/50. The thing is, if you require blue flame for hellbats not to suck, I think people will just switch 100% back to blue flame hellions, atleast if they need to waste 150 gas for the transformation upgrade. Some might say that's good I suppose, but while I won't mourn seeing hellbats less, making them extinct isn't what I want. With a nerfed usefulness in drops until the defender is ready to kill them, blue flame hellions are simply better than hellbats in TvT(mech vs mech).
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On July 06 2013 18:26 dohgg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 09:20 Lock0n wrote:On July 06 2013 08:46 dohgg wrote:
Well thank god no one on this thread has any part with blizzard balancing team, since i have heard some really crappy suggestions (lol, remove light tag from scvs).
People need to wake up... Hellbats are pretty shitty unit! especially in TvT!
and why do i say that? because they are freaking slow!!! and therefore suppose to be so terrible vs ranged units... and guess what? terrans have quite some ranged units...
"Yes.. but with medivac drop..."
now we're getting into something.... imo, the only solution will be cargo 8.. will that ruin hellbat drop into non exist play? Probably... But on the other hand it wont hurt their well balanced places in TvZ and TvP compositions... Some crappy suggestion = cargo 8 hellbat rofl. Dude are you on crack. or are you just a retard. Well lol... and why does 8 cargo makes no sense? because the unit doesn't have a unit model like the size of a thor, collosus or ultra? let me remind you my dear friend... we're playing a professional RTS game which the first priority of things that should make sense is not the way things look, but the balancing of things. About opinions which will delay the production or tech of hellbats - imo, time isn't the biggest issue, we still see some pretty late hellbats drops (usually involved like 3 medivac drops all together) which still make a significant damage even though theres a bunker + missle turret ready to defend.
This is a huge nerf to Hellbat drop in general. I thought the problem was the timing of the drop(s).
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Nerf the HP count! And increase gas cost
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On July 06 2013 23:56 jkim91 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 18:26 dohgg wrote:On July 06 2013 09:20 Lock0n wrote:On July 06 2013 08:46 dohgg wrote:
Well thank god no one on this thread has any part with blizzard balancing team, since i have heard some really crappy suggestions (lol, remove light tag from scvs).
People need to wake up... Hellbats are pretty shitty unit! especially in TvT!
and why do i say that? because they are freaking slow!!! and therefore suppose to be so terrible vs ranged units... and guess what? terrans have quite some ranged units...
"Yes.. but with medivac drop..."
now we're getting into something.... imo, the only solution will be cargo 8.. will that ruin hellbat drop into non exist play? Probably... But on the other hand it wont hurt their well balanced places in TvZ and TvP compositions... Some crappy suggestion = cargo 8 hellbat rofl. Dude are you on crack. or are you just a retard. Well lol... and why does 8 cargo makes no sense? because the unit doesn't have a unit model like the size of a thor, collosus or ultra? let me remind you my dear friend... we're playing a professional RTS game which the first priority of things that should make sense is not the way things look, but the balancing of things. About opinions which will delay the production or tech of hellbats - imo, time isn't the biggest issue, we still see some pretty late hellbats drops (usually involved like 3 medivac drops all together) which still make a significant damage even though theres a bunker + missle turret ready to defend. This is a huge nerf to Hellbat drop in general. I thought the problem was the timing of the drop(s).
+1. That's why everyone's brain is toasted... SO HARD TO FIX THIS DAM PROBLEM 
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EPT
