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On July 03 2013 20:42 Strelok wrote:Many people are complainting about hellbat drop play. Zergs, protosses and some terrans who want to play bio in TvT and struggle hard against mech style (Taeja, Bomber, MKP, Tarson  e.t.c). Yes, hellbat drops openers are one of the strongest openers for terran. But why is that so hard to nerf it for Blizzard? BalanceI would say now balance is rather close to be called "good". June statistics shows some advantage for protosses, but still. Some race will always have small advantage. It doesn't mean balance is bad overall. So if you take one of the strongest terran weapons away, you need to give them other weapon. If there won't be a hellbat drop possibility, zergs and protosses won't make fast defences and will do way better eco, so terran win rate will fall drastically (as it was already in WoL when "queens instead of sunkens" eco stuff brought huge zerg domination). So what weapon can substitute hellbat drops? Only a banshee. But if you nerf hellbat and raise banshee what will it change in game? Everyone will stop using hellbat drops and start using banshee. And there will be complaints about imba banshees from zergs, protosses and those terrans who don't like banshee and would like to use hellbat drops more. More then that - on non-pro level, terrans won't be able to win against other races, because hellbats are the only attacking unit of terran with a small multitask/micro requirement. Role of hellbats in gameIf we don't count drops in the beginning, hellbats are not that good. Their HP/Range make them rather bad choice for late game. Usually you just make 5-6 to tank damage. So if you nerf the possibility of their using in beginning, you will receive 1 more useless unit in game. Possibility to mech game (especially in TvP)Even now - TvP meching is way harder then bioing. If you nerf hellbats - it will be almost impossible. Yes, it damages mech terrans, like me - way more, but i am sure it has always to be a possibility to play mech for people who don't want to play bio. So with hellbat nerf, Blizzard will need to give other strong weapon for mech terrans. What do i propose?I don't propose to nerf hellbats or not to nerf. All i want to say - Blizzard needs to do everything very ACCURATE and CAREFULL, otherwise you will receive same stuff as it was in WoL, when "small raise of queens and overlord speed" leaded to a total zerg domination until HotS and the retirement of many terran players. For those who can't understand what i mean, i say straight:1. Every nerf weakens race. 2. Terran is not imba now, so you don't need to nerf it. 3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something. 4. And this buff has to affect mech more then bio, because nerf of hellbats affects mech play more then bio.
I do not think the purpose of this nerf is to weaken mech players. This nerf seems to try to add diversity to the early - mid game of TvT. Think of the last TvT that the players decided to not got for hellbat drops? Chances are they lost if they didnt go for them.
On the flip side, I do agree that with a hellbat nerf that the late game mech composition will be weaker. I feel that this should not happen. The idea is to diversify the early-mid game TvT, not weaken mech play. Therefor; after the blue flame upgrade that the hellbats will be just the same as they were before the nerf. That way we see more diversity TvT early - mid game and not nerf the late game composition to mech and also the upgrade allows you to start hellbat dropping.
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On July 03 2013 21:55 Sissors wrote:In general I agree with Strelok, however: There I disagree. At least in TvT I switched from bio-mech to mech because of hellbats in mid-late game: The frontal assault of a mech terran on a bio-mech terran is so enormously strong with hellbats. First because hellbats tank way more tank shots than bio will ever do. Second because loading a few medivacs with hellbats and dropping them right on top of the enemies army is so strong.
I second this.
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people still can't comprehend that a Mech unit can be healed by a Medivac!
that's one of the dumbest things still in the game, and would go a LONG way to balancing the OP hellbat
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haha i read all of that in streloks voice.
to your point: blizzard has proposed nerfing hellbats like this: take away bonus to light, add it again through researching blue flame upgrade. they would be weaker in the beginning (NEEDED) and on same strength later (for negligible cost).
(not needed in my opinion, i think they're too strong in general, drops or no drops, but that's irrelevant to my point)
i disagree with having to buff something else terran has. the even win rates are caused mainly by metagame (blind 3 oc rush from terrans vs roach bling allins) rather than it being balanced.
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On July 04 2013 00:18 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 00:15 Zarahtra wrote:
Personally I'd be most interested in doing it zerg style and removing the engi bay requirement of turrets(and rather say rax requirement). People keep saying "hellbat drops are only a problem in TvT" and then they go "we need to do a straight up nerf for all MUs".
The effects of such a change would admittedly change TvP openers a bit, since nowadays, people normally open up with engi bay due to possible oracles, so it'd probably have very minimal effects on surviving the oracles, but it'd possibly allow terran to be slightly greedier, which isn't (necesarily) a good thing.
For TvZ, the effect would be minimal at best, since when it'd matter, people will have 2 engi bays down anyway. But that would make Oracle openers even more worthless than they are at the moment. The only way an Oracle will really work is if they hit before you have your engi bay up.
Well it wouldn't really change much vs oracles. All terrans are getting these engi bays up early anyway. The change would be that terran could be slightly more greedy like I said, which I admittedly don't know how would land. Like Strelok pointed out in the OP, the queen buff had huge ramifacations since zerg could be more greedy due to it(admittedly it'd never be such a drastic change). So yeah, it'd change terran openings a bit in TvP, fx. doubt terran would then go such insanely early +1 attack anymore, so yeah... Could be to much, but hard to know.
On July 04 2013 00:19 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 00:15 Zarahtra wrote:
Personally I'd be most interested in doing it zerg style and removing the engi bay requirement of turrets(and rather say rax requirement). People keep saying "hellbat drops are only a problem in TvT" and then they go "we need to do a straight up nerf for all MUs".
The effects of such a change would admittedly change TvP openers a bit, since nowadays, people normally open up with engi bay due to possible oracles, so it'd probably have very minimal effects on surviving the oracles, but it'd possibly allow terran to be slightly greedier, which isn't (necesarily) a good thing.
For TvZ, the effect would be minimal at best, since when it'd matter, people will have 2 engi bays down anyway. DTs hate your idea. They already feel pretty useless but now detection is even easier.
Well it'd not really change anything for DTs, if turrets aren't down preemptively, you're pretty screwed anyway. It's not like with zerg where you can start like 6 spores and just cancel everyone except the first to finish.
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On July 04 2013 00:22 MannerzMan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 20:42 Strelok wrote:Many people are complainting about hellbat drop play. Zergs, protosses and some terrans who want to play bio in TvT and struggle hard against mech style (Taeja, Bomber, MKP, Tarson e.t.c). Yes, hellbat drops openers are one of the strongest openers for terran. But why is that so hard to nerf it for Blizzard? BalanceI would say now balance is rather close to be called "good". June statistics shows some advantage for protosses, but still. Some race will always have small advantage. It doesn't mean balance is bad overall. So if you take one of the strongest terran weapons away, you need to give them other weapon. If there won't be a hellbat drop possibility, zergs and protosses won't make fast defences and will do way better eco, so terran win rate will fall drastically (as it was already in WoL when "queens instead of sunkens" eco stuff brought huge zerg domination). So what weapon can substitute hellbat drops? Only a banshee. But if you nerf hellbat and raise banshee what will it change in game? Everyone will stop using hellbat drops and start using banshee. And there will be complaints about imba banshees from zergs, protosses and those terrans who don't like banshee and would like to use hellbat drops more. More then that - on non-pro level, terrans won't be able to win against other races, because hellbats are the only attacking unit of terran with a small multitask/micro requirement. Role of hellbats in gameIf we don't count drops in the beginning, hellbats are not that good. Their HP/Range make them rather bad choice for late game. Usually you just make 5-6 to tank damage. So if you nerf the possibility of their using in beginning, you will receive 1 more useless unit in game. Possibility to mech game (especially in TvP)Even now - TvP meching is way harder then bioing. If you nerf hellbats - it will be almost impossible. Yes, it damages mech terrans, like me - way more, but i am sure it has always to be a possibility to play mech for people who don't want to play bio. So with hellbat nerf, Blizzard will need to give other strong weapon for mech terrans. What do i propose?I don't propose to nerf hellbats or not to nerf. All i want to say - Blizzard needs to do everything very ACCURATE and CAREFULL, otherwise you will receive same stuff as it was in WoL, when "small raise of queens and overlord speed" leaded to a total zerg domination until HotS and the retirement of many terran players. For those who can't understand what i mean, i say straight:1. Every nerf weakens race. 2. Terran is not imba now, so you don't need to nerf it. 3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something. 4. And this buff has to affect mech more then bio, because nerf of hellbats affects mech play more then bio. I do not think the purpose of this nerf is to weaken mech players. This nerf seems to try to add diversity to the early - mid game of TvT. Think of the last TvT that the players decided to not got for hellbat drops? Chances are they lost if they didnt go for them. On the flip side, I do agree that with a hellbat nerf that the late game mech composition will be weaker. I feel that this should not happen. The idea is to diversify the early-mid game TvT, not weaken mech play. Therefor; after the blue flame upgrade that the hellbats will be just the same as they were before the nerf. That way we see more diversity TvT early - mid game and not nerf the late game composition to mech and also the upgrade allows you to start hellbat dropping.
the problem is that an army full of double marines(cost of a hellbat) shouldn't be that tanky and does massive amount of aoe damage vs all units in late game. you dont see late game pvt where terran goes mass marines and 3 marauders to win the game like how mech terrans are right now with 30 hellbats and maybe 4 tanks. on top of that, they're an A-move unit, yes, a move unit, at least you have to micro marines, but with these things you can send them into storm and they will come out fine. don't understand what concept of this unit needs to stop being so good do you guys not understand.
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The only solutions i can think of:
-Rename the transformation upgrade and make it a requirement to be able to make hellbats so that hellbats will come a little bit later.
-Medivac can not boost when carrying units that take 4+ cargo space(Hellbats,Tanks and Thors) or boosting requires 25 energy.
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On July 03 2013 23:58 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 23:54 Strelok wrote:On July 03 2013 23:45 Faust852 wrote:
When you scout hellbat drop, you still can lose the game because hellbat can kill so many scv even with a turret/bunker.
With the banshee it's not the same, you can defend it with one AA tower and that's it, you wont sucide it to kill 2 drones while the drop hellbat, you just do it. Well right now you can defend a banshee just with 2 queens. So of course now it's not a problem ^^. I waste thon of money on starport, addon and banshee+inviz - and you just make 1 aa each base (or even just queens + overseer). And now imagine banshee that deals as much damage as hellbat drops. (remember, it has to be same powerfull - because now terran is not imba) I believe this is an issue as well. Did Blizzard ever state why they made it so Spores only require Pool in HOTS instead of evo? Right now you can't even catch a Zerg with it's pants down.
which is a good thing. why do you want an automatic victory without zerg being able to do anything just because of a build order advantage? there are too much of those already, especially in zvp.
if terran doesn't make static detection (turrets) he will just scan.
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On July 04 2013 00:32 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 23:58 Tenks wrote:On July 03 2013 23:54 Strelok wrote:On July 03 2013 23:45 Faust852 wrote:
When you scout hellbat drop, you still can lose the game because hellbat can kill so many scv even with a turret/bunker.
With the banshee it's not the same, you can defend it with one AA tower and that's it, you wont sucide it to kill 2 drones while the drop hellbat, you just do it. Well right now you can defend a banshee just with 2 queens. So of course now it's not a problem ^^. I waste thon of money on starport, addon and banshee+inviz - and you just make 1 aa each base (or even just queens + overseer). And now imagine banshee that deals as much damage as hellbat drops. (remember, it has to be same powerfull - because now terran is not imba) I believe this is an issue as well. Did Blizzard ever state why they made it so Spores only require Pool in HOTS instead of evo? Right now you can't even catch a Zerg with it's pants down. which is a good thing. why do you want an automatic victory without zerg being able to do anything just because of a build order advantage? there are too much of those already, especially in zvp. if terran doesn't make static detection (turrets) he will just scan.
If a Zerg isn't scouting before 111 w/ Cloak that is hardly a "build order win." That is a "The Zerg is terrible" win.
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On July 04 2013 00:34 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 00:32 willstertben wrote:On July 03 2013 23:58 Tenks wrote:On July 03 2013 23:54 Strelok wrote:On July 03 2013 23:45 Faust852 wrote:
When you scout hellbat drop, you still can lose the game because hellbat can kill so many scv even with a turret/bunker.
With the banshee it's not the same, you can defend it with one AA tower and that's it, you wont sucide it to kill 2 drones while the drop hellbat, you just do it. Well right now you can defend a banshee just with 2 queens. So of course now it's not a problem ^^. I waste thon of money on starport, addon and banshee+inviz - and you just make 1 aa each base (or even just queens + overseer). And now imagine banshee that deals as much damage as hellbat drops. (remember, it has to be same powerfull - because now terran is not imba) I believe this is an issue as well. Did Blizzard ever state why they made it so Spores only require Pool in HOTS instead of evo? Right now you can't even catch a Zerg with it's pants down. which is a good thing. why do you want an automatic victory without zerg being able to do anything just because of a build order advantage? there are too much of those already, especially in zvp. if terran doesn't make static detection (turrets) he will just scan. If a Zerg isn't scouting before 111 w/ Cloak that is hardly a "build order win." That is a "The Zerg is terrible" win.
i had dts in mind when saying that, not banshees.
there are other matchups you know.
On July 04 2013 00:07 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 00:03 mechengineer123 wrote:On July 03 2013 23:58 Tenks wrote:On July 03 2013 23:54 Strelok wrote:On July 03 2013 23:45 Faust852 wrote:
When you scout hellbat drop, you still can lose the game because hellbat can kill so many scv even with a turret/bunker.
With the banshee it's not the same, you can defend it with one AA tower and that's it, you wont sucide it to kill 2 drones while the drop hellbat, you just do it. Well right now you can defend a banshee just with 2 queens. So of course now it's not a problem ^^. I waste thon of money on starport, addon and banshee+inviz - and you just make 1 aa each base (or even just queens + overseer). And now imagine banshee that deals as much damage as hellbat drops. (remember, it has to be same powerfull - because now terran is not imba) I believe this is an issue as well. Did Blizzard ever state why they made it so Spores only require Pool in HOTS instead of evo? Right now you can't even catch a Zerg with it's pants down. I believe it was because of protoss stargate play and zergs refusing to scout even after turbolord buff. I want turret without ebay too, some P just managed to get an oracle a 4:50 in my base 
i agree to turret without ebay. doesn't make any sense for it to require ebay and can possibly lead to build order losses against dt in weird games.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
If only it were possible to change hellbat drops in TvT without affecting the other matchups. I think hellbats are fine in vP and vZ. It only really spoils the TvT mirror, from a viewer's perspective. There is nothing wrong with the balance. It is just really not fun to watch.
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On July 03 2013 20:42 Strelok wrote:Many people are complainting about hellbat drop play. Zergs, protosses and some terrans who want to play bio in TvT and struggle hard against mech style (Taeja, Bomber, MKP, Tarson e.t.c). Yes, hellbat drops openers are one of the strongest openers for terran. But why is that so hard to nerf it for Blizzard? BalanceI would say now balance is rather close to be called "good". June statistics shows some advantage for protosses, but still. Some race will always have small advantage. It doesn't mean balance is bad overall. So if you take one of the strongest terran weapons away, you need to give them other weapon. If there won't be a hellbat drop possibility, zergs and protosses won't make fast defences and will do way better eco, so terran win rate will fall drastically (as it was already in WoL when "queens instead of sunkens" eco stuff brought huge zerg domination). So what weapon can substitute hellbat drops? Only a banshee. But if you nerf hellbat and raise banshee what will it change in game? Everyone will stop using hellbat drops and start using banshee. And there will be complaints about imba banshees from zergs, protosses and those terrans who don't like banshee and would like to use hellbat drops more. More then that - on non-pro level, terrans won't be able to win against other races, because hellbats are the only attacking unit of terran with a small multitask/micro requirement. Role of hellbats in gameIf we don't count drops in the beginning, hellbats are not that good. Their HP/Range make them rather bad choice for late game. Usually you just make 5-6 to tank damage. So if you nerf the possibility of their using in beginning, you will receive 1 more useless unit in game. Possibility to mech game (especially in TvP)Even now - TvP meching is way harder then bioing. If you nerf hellbats - it will be almost impossible. Yes, it damages mech terrans, like me - way more, but i am sure it has always to be a possibility to play mech for people who don't want to play bio. So with hellbat nerf, Blizzard will need to give other strong weapon for mech terrans. What do i propose?I don't propose to nerf hellbats or not to nerf. All i want to say - Blizzard needs to do everything very ACCURATE and CAREFULL, otherwise you will receive same stuff as it was in WoL, when "small raise of queens and overlord speed" leaded to a total zerg domination until HotS and the retirement of many terran players. For those who can't understand what i mean, i say straight:1. Every nerf weakens race. 2. Terran is not imba now, so you don't need to nerf it. 3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something. 4. And this buff has to affect mech more then bio, because nerf of hellbats affects mech play more then bio.
Strelok makes a lot of good points, it's good that he made this thread because otherwise if Blizzard/community just don't say anything, then the game will become worse because of tournament balance fervor.
I think all pros pretty much agree (well, Terrans at least) that Hellbat drops are broken in TvT. They are so good that the best and almost only strategy right now is to Hellbat drop your opponent, or blind counter Hellbats.
One of the best counters in TvT to Hellbats right now is to simply make them yourself.
But as Strelok says, the problem is not the Hellbat as a unit itself. The Hellbat is actually pretty supply inefficient lategame for having no mobility and no range. It's similar to a roach, it's a unit you basically want to throw away as cost efficiently as you can in late game.
The issue is the burst potential in drops. People should note, Hellbat drops were never an issue until after they were given the biological tag. Hellbat drops always existed, but when the Hellbat was a mech unit, you could reliably put an end to the Hellbat drop by doing damage to the Hellbats, which put a timer on the amount of time they were dropped within your mineral line, or able to be re-loaded back into the medivac from still being alive.
After the biological tag was added, that's when Hellbat TvT came up as basically being the end-all be-all TvT, and of course players use them in TvZ a lot as well, and occasionally TvP but more of an opportunistic thing in TvP rather than as part of an entire build order.
The biological tag makes archons stronger vs hellbats, and also makes them survive 5-6 seconds longer in mineral lines due to healing, which can be worth another 5-10 worker kills which is game breaking.
The thing blizzard/dkim have to contend with is if they nerf the Hellbat entirely, mech TvP becomes even worse, and it's already terribad right now in TvP, and difficult in TvZ due to new lategame stuff like mass SH + viper.
They need to nerf the Hellbat drop specifically, much like muta vs muta ZvZ needed a ZvZ specific nerf that did not nerf mutalisks in the other two match-ups.
The other good points Strelok makes are that if the Hellbat is nerfed it's more of a huge nerf than people initially can understand. As he referenced, the queen+overlord speed patch in wings was a catalyst for brood infestor every game and allowing Zerg to commit all of their larva to drones.
A Hellbat nerf too severe would let Zergs do this same thing again, as Hellbats are one of the few ways Terran can pressure a Zerg's larva right now since spores were buffed making banshees significantly worse, and the mothership core / stargate openings made banshees non-existent in TvP as well.
As strelok said, if they nerf Hellbats they need to buff something for mech TvP (tanks...) and it has to affect mech more than bio.
What is a very logical solution to this that weakens Hellbat TvT drops, still keeps them viable in the other match-ups, and does not kill the Hellbat as a unit while helping mech TvP?
Remove the biological tag. It does all of the above, it weakens the Hellbat drop, it buffs mech TvP slightly (archons less damage to Hellbats), and will still leave the Hellbat's potential there to pressure Zerg's larva count while putting more of a timer on the drops.
It's a nerf that is a very tiny one, but has huge game implications.
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On July 04 2013 00:28 hellokittySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 00:22 MannerzMan wrote:On July 03 2013 20:42 Strelok wrote:Many people are complainting about hellbat drop play. Zergs, protosses and some terrans who want to play bio in TvT and struggle hard against mech style (Taeja, Bomber, MKP, Tarson e.t.c). Yes, hellbat drops openers are one of the strongest openers for terran. But why is that so hard to nerf it for Blizzard? BalanceI would say now balance is rather close to be called "good". June statistics shows some advantage for protosses, but still. Some race will always have small advantage. It doesn't mean balance is bad overall. So if you take one of the strongest terran weapons away, you need to give them other weapon. If there won't be a hellbat drop possibility, zergs and protosses won't make fast defences and will do way better eco, so terran win rate will fall drastically (as it was already in WoL when "queens instead of sunkens" eco stuff brought huge zerg domination). So what weapon can substitute hellbat drops? Only a banshee. But if you nerf hellbat and raise banshee what will it change in game? Everyone will stop using hellbat drops and start using banshee. And there will be complaints about imba banshees from zergs, protosses and those terrans who don't like banshee and would like to use hellbat drops more. More then that - on non-pro level, terrans won't be able to win against other races, because hellbats are the only attacking unit of terran with a small multitask/micro requirement. Role of hellbats in gameIf we don't count drops in the beginning, hellbats are not that good. Their HP/Range make them rather bad choice for late game. Usually you just make 5-6 to tank damage. So if you nerf the possibility of their using in beginning, you will receive 1 more useless unit in game. Possibility to mech game (especially in TvP)Even now - TvP meching is way harder then bioing. If you nerf hellbats - it will be almost impossible. Yes, it damages mech terrans, like me - way more, but i am sure it has always to be a possibility to play mech for people who don't want to play bio. So with hellbat nerf, Blizzard will need to give other strong weapon for mech terrans. What do i propose?I don't propose to nerf hellbats or not to nerf. All i want to say - Blizzard needs to do everything very ACCURATE and CAREFULL, otherwise you will receive same stuff as it was in WoL, when "small raise of queens and overlord speed" leaded to a total zerg domination until HotS and the retirement of many terran players. For those who can't understand what i mean, i say straight:1. Every nerf weakens race. 2. Terran is not imba now, so you don't need to nerf it. 3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something. 4. And this buff has to affect mech more then bio, because nerf of hellbats affects mech play more then bio. I do not think the purpose of this nerf is to weaken mech players. This nerf seems to try to add diversity to the early - mid game of TvT. Think of the last TvT that the players decided to not got for hellbat drops? Chances are they lost if they didnt go for them. On the flip side, I do agree that with a hellbat nerf that the late game mech composition will be weaker. I feel that this should not happen. The idea is to diversify the early-mid game TvT, not weaken mech play. Therefor; after the blue flame upgrade that the hellbats will be just the same as they were before the nerf. That way we see more diversity TvT early - mid game and not nerf the late game composition to mech and also the upgrade allows you to start hellbat dropping. the problem is that an army full of double marines(cost of a hellbat) shouldn't be that tanky and does massive amount of aoe damage vs all units in late game. you dont see late game pvt where terran goes mass marines and 3 marauders to win the game like how mech terrans are right now with 30 hellbats and maybe 4 tanks. on top of that, they're an A-move unit, yes, a move unit, at least you have to micro marines, but with these things you can send them into storm and they will come out fine. don't understand what concept of this unit needs to stop being so good do you guys not understand.
It's interesting that you exactly just described the chargelot in lategame TvP. A lot of people argue that Terran needed a unit that requires less micro (in a sense) and the Hellbat is very similar to the chargelot in that respect. It's an A-move unit, which is perfectly fine. It was designed literally as an a-move type of chargelot counter to help lategame TvP and was supposed to also have been designed to make mech TvP more viable (if anyone remembers those beta videos of hellbats/tanks on a ramp vs chargelot/archon).
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On July 04 2013 00:28 hellokittySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 00:22 MannerzMan wrote:On July 03 2013 20:42 Strelok wrote:Many people are complainting about hellbat drop play. Zergs, protosses and some terrans who want to play bio in TvT and struggle hard against mech style (Taeja, Bomber, MKP, Tarson e.t.c). Yes, hellbat drops openers are one of the strongest openers for terran. But why is that so hard to nerf it for Blizzard? BalanceI would say now balance is rather close to be called "good". June statistics shows some advantage for protosses, but still. Some race will always have small advantage. It doesn't mean balance is bad overall. So if you take one of the strongest terran weapons away, you need to give them other weapon. If there won't be a hellbat drop possibility, zergs and protosses won't make fast defences and will do way better eco, so terran win rate will fall drastically (as it was already in WoL when "queens instead of sunkens" eco stuff brought huge zerg domination). So what weapon can substitute hellbat drops? Only a banshee. But if you nerf hellbat and raise banshee what will it change in game? Everyone will stop using hellbat drops and start using banshee. And there will be complaints about imba banshees from zergs, protosses and those terrans who don't like banshee and would like to use hellbat drops more. More then that - on non-pro level, terrans won't be able to win against other races, because hellbats are the only attacking unit of terran with a small multitask/micro requirement. Role of hellbats in gameIf we don't count drops in the beginning, hellbats are not that good. Their HP/Range make them rather bad choice for late game. Usually you just make 5-6 to tank damage. So if you nerf the possibility of their using in beginning, you will receive 1 more useless unit in game. Possibility to mech game (especially in TvP)Even now - TvP meching is way harder then bioing. If you nerf hellbats - it will be almost impossible. Yes, it damages mech terrans, like me - way more, but i am sure it has always to be a possibility to play mech for people who don't want to play bio. So with hellbat nerf, Blizzard will need to give other strong weapon for mech terrans. What do i propose?I don't propose to nerf hellbats or not to nerf. All i want to say - Blizzard needs to do everything very ACCURATE and CAREFULL, otherwise you will receive same stuff as it was in WoL, when "small raise of queens and overlord speed" leaded to a total zerg domination until HotS and the retirement of many terran players. For those who can't understand what i mean, i say straight:1. Every nerf weakens race. 2. Terran is not imba now, so you don't need to nerf it. 3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something. 4. And this buff has to affect mech more then bio, because nerf of hellbats affects mech play more then bio. I do not think the purpose of this nerf is to weaken mech players. This nerf seems to try to add diversity to the early - mid game of TvT. Think of the last TvT that the players decided to not got for hellbat drops? Chances are they lost if they didnt go for them. On the flip side, I do agree that with a hellbat nerf that the late game mech composition will be weaker. I feel that this should not happen. The idea is to diversify the early-mid game TvT, not weaken mech play. Therefor; after the blue flame upgrade that the hellbats will be just the same as they were before the nerf. That way we see more diversity TvT early - mid game and not nerf the late game composition to mech and also the upgrade allows you to start hellbat dropping. the problem is that an army full of double marines(cost of a hellbat) shouldn't be that tanky and does massive amount of aoe damage vs all units in late game. you dont see late game pvt where terran goes mass marines and 3 marauders to win the game like how mech terrans are right now with 30 hellbats and maybe 4 tanks. on top of that, they're an A-move unit, yes, a move unit, at least you have to micro marines, but with these things you can send them into storm and they will come out fine. don't understand what concept of this unit needs to stop being so good do you guys not understand.
We are going to have different views on this. I do not think that hellbats are a 1a unit because of their range being so crappy . The damage is done usually when dropped on top of an army to fully benefit from their splash dmg. However; in retrospect, They are quite beefy for thier cost and being light units. AND being able to heal from medivac seems like too much. I dunno.
I do think that mech terran vrs protoss comes down to shutting down terrans harassment successfully early on. Its not a question of whats stronger cause left alone protoss can get the economy and production to deal with mech.
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On July 04 2013 00:05 Thrillz wrote:
Problem: TvT is where it lies. It's fine in TvZ and TvP (essential in TvP in fact).
The dilemma of this is:
How do you change it in TvT without destroying it's role in the other matchups?
i wish everyone thought that was the case. however most zergs and protosses say its too strong in zvt and pvt as well.
if everyone thought only tvt was a problem then the blue flame upgrade idea would be simple having them 18 (22 vs light) instead of 18 (30 vs light) by default so they would 3 shot scvs but 2 shot other workers. and blue flame just giving them +8 additional to light so they get same damage as now
after all hellions 4 shots scvs and 3 shots other workers
but because tosses and zergs think they are too strong too blizzard has to make the hellbats deal <20 vs light before blue flame upgrade which might (not sure) make hellbat drops not even worth bothering with in the other match-ups
i think tvt is a bit silly now
tvz it feels like theres no reason not to open 2base hellbat drops cause nothing else forces as much investment to defenses for as little cost as possible at such an early stage.
tvp opening hellbat drops is a gamble and its more about how good toss is at reacting rather than the investments he has to put into defense, which makes me think its fine in tvp
i think blizzard will make them deal +0 vs light before the blue flame upgrade to keep things simple, its quite a nerf though. im just not sure how i will keep up with the zergs then seeing how much my play relies on hellbat drops forcing zergs not to go full on drones, the koreans will figure something out :p
On July 04 2013 00:19 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 00:15 Zarahtra wrote:
Personally I'd be most interested in doing it zerg style and removing the engi bay requirement of turrets(and rather say rax requirement). People keep saying "hellbat drops are only a problem in TvT" and then they go "we need to do a straight up nerf for all MUs".
The effects of such a change would admittedly change TvP openers a bit, since nowadays, people normally open up with engi bay due to possible oracles, so it'd probably have very minimal effects on surviving the oracles, but it'd possibly allow terran to be slightly greedier, which isn't (necesarily) a good thing.
For TvZ, the effect would be minimal at best, since when it'd matter, people will have 2 engi bays down anyway. DTs hate your idea. They already feel pretty useless but now detection is even easier.
off-topic but both spores and DT tech were buffed, while terrans detection was not. makes sense slightly at least.
however i dont think removing ebay tech will change the fact that hellbats kill scvs in an instant while the units attacking the hellbats cant possibly kill them as fast as youd like.
a hellbat drop in tvt makes for a scv pull losing about 100 minerals right there and kills 2~ scvs which is another 100 minerals plus more and more damage over time. this is pretty much worst case scenario as well, sometimes they kill a ton of workers or cause a ton of loss mining time.
the turret doesnt guarantee kill the medivac during a hellbat drop unless it commits into the mineral line completely. it only adds damage and unables the hellbats to be picked up once they are committed.
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On July 04 2013 00:46 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 00:28 hellokittySC2 wrote:On July 04 2013 00:22 MannerzMan wrote:On July 03 2013 20:42 Strelok wrote:Many people are complainting about hellbat drop play. Zergs, protosses and some terrans who want to play bio in TvT and struggle hard against mech style (Taeja, Bomber, MKP, Tarson e.t.c). Yes, hellbat drops openers are one of the strongest openers for terran. But why is that so hard to nerf it for Blizzard? BalanceI would say now balance is rather close to be called "good". June statistics shows some advantage for protosses, but still. Some race will always have small advantage. It doesn't mean balance is bad overall. So if you take one of the strongest terran weapons away, you need to give them other weapon. If there won't be a hellbat drop possibility, zergs and protosses won't make fast defences and will do way better eco, so terran win rate will fall drastically (as it was already in WoL when "queens instead of sunkens" eco stuff brought huge zerg domination). So what weapon can substitute hellbat drops? Only a banshee. But if you nerf hellbat and raise banshee what will it change in game? Everyone will stop using hellbat drops and start using banshee. And there will be complaints about imba banshees from zergs, protosses and those terrans who don't like banshee and would like to use hellbat drops more. More then that - on non-pro level, terrans won't be able to win against other races, because hellbats are the only attacking unit of terran with a small multitask/micro requirement. Role of hellbats in gameIf we don't count drops in the beginning, hellbats are not that good. Their HP/Range make them rather bad choice for late game. Usually you just make 5-6 to tank damage. So if you nerf the possibility of their using in beginning, you will receive 1 more useless unit in game. Possibility to mech game (especially in TvP)Even now - TvP meching is way harder then bioing. If you nerf hellbats - it will be almost impossible. Yes, it damages mech terrans, like me - way more, but i am sure it has always to be a possibility to play mech for people who don't want to play bio. So with hellbat nerf, Blizzard will need to give other strong weapon for mech terrans. What do i propose?I don't propose to nerf hellbats or not to nerf. All i want to say - Blizzard needs to do everything very ACCURATE and CAREFULL, otherwise you will receive same stuff as it was in WoL, when "small raise of queens and overlord speed" leaded to a total zerg domination until HotS and the retirement of many terran players. For those who can't understand what i mean, i say straight:1. Every nerf weakens race. 2. Terran is not imba now, so you don't need to nerf it. 3. So if you nerf hellbats, you need to buff something. 4. And this buff has to affect mech more then bio, because nerf of hellbats affects mech play more then bio. I do not think the purpose of this nerf is to weaken mech players. This nerf seems to try to add diversity to the early - mid game of TvT. Think of the last TvT that the players decided to not got for hellbat drops? Chances are they lost if they didnt go for them. On the flip side, I do agree that with a hellbat nerf that the late game mech composition will be weaker. I feel that this should not happen. The idea is to diversify the early-mid game TvT, not weaken mech play. Therefor; after the blue flame upgrade that the hellbats will be just the same as they were before the nerf. That way we see more diversity TvT early - mid game and not nerf the late game composition to mech and also the upgrade allows you to start hellbat dropping. the problem is that an army full of double marines(cost of a hellbat) shouldn't be that tanky and does massive amount of aoe damage vs all units in late game. you dont see late game pvt where terran goes mass marines and 3 marauders to win the game like how mech terrans are right now with 30 hellbats and maybe 4 tanks. on top of that, they're an A-move unit, yes, a move unit, at least you have to micro marines, but with these things you can send them into storm and they will come out fine. don't understand what concept of this unit needs to stop being so good do you guys not understand. It's interesting that you exactly just described the chargelot in lategame TvP. A lot of people argue that Terran needed a unit that requires less micro (in a sense) and the Hellbat is very similar to the chargelot in that respect. It's an A-move unit, which is perfectly fine. It was designed literally as an a-move type of chargelot counter to help lategame TvP and was supposed to also have been designed to make mech TvP more viable (if anyone remembers those beta videos of hellbats/tanks on a ramp vs chargelot/archon).
the problem is that late game terran army is viking + ghosts, not tier 1.5 units that costs minerals only and have more impact than traditional army. in my opinion, chargelots are utterly useless vs any sort of hellbat composition, regardless of early, mid, or late game. what does protoss do when chargelots are the bread and butter of the protoss and doesn't work? they try to make stalkers(cheapest least-gas costly next to zealots for tier 1-1.5 units), and they still get shit on by any sorts of hellbat composition(medivac heal + the nature of the hellbat damage and hi marauders). Besides that, hellbats gets auto healed when taken damage, and are easily replaceable to marines, they don't need stim(takes hp away from marines, meaning medivacs have more energy to heal other units that are stimed,), they are hella more tankier than marines(a lot better vs splash based units like collosus and high templar), easy to make out of reactors, and does splash. is this really a type of unit that is equally powerful throughout every phase of the game? i dont think so.
Edit: hellbats are slow, so they dont have too much mobility to micro with (compare to stimmed marine and marauder), makes them an a-move unit with the nature of their hp and damage setup.
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They should just give hellbats to every race. Problem solved.
User was warned for this post
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Avilo - Your idea about making thehellbats not biological is an idea. I am a protoss player so I am against this (archons being my key to beating mech right now) but I haven't played against hellbats without the biological tag so I cant really address that. It seems logical that it puts a timer on the harass, still the terran can just go back and repair while more drops on the way. slows down the hellbat drops per minute a bit.
Side note: hellbat drops per minute is a thing. Thats not good.
Morrow - As a protoss I feel that hellbat drops aren't too difficult to deal with. just have to react and see it coming like most harasses. Totally agree that TvT is silly. I thought that defensive widow mines and turret would be the new thing, but hellbats defend hellbat drops better, so like the counter to hellbats is hellbats. Seems dumb.
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Can anyone of the fellow pros lurking around here explain how Hellbats can be essential in TvP? After all Protoss has gotten no addition since WoL and in WoL TvP was completely fine. I thought after 3 years that matchup is somewhere figured out. It is still Bio with Vikings or Ghosts vs the usual Protoss deathball most of the time after all.
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I wouldn't mind hellbats so much (after all, Zergs did have to deal with reavers, HTs, vultures and hellions too) if it was as easy to deal with them as it is to drop them. Reavers are easy to kill. HTs are easy to kill. Vultures and hellions are slightly harder, but mainly because of their mobility. Why the fuck does Terran get to have a dropping unit that can literally sit there and eat 100 shots from a queen and can only really be destroyed by a combination of roach/queen?
Dropping means you are automatically and knowingly sacrificing an partial army/positional advantage to gain an economic advantage that'll pay off. I should expect to kill a 1-medivac drop with a relatively small force because I know that I still have the army advantage even if I divert a bit of my army to defense. But I can't do that with hellbats because a bigger chunk of my army still doesn't mean I enough of an advantage to nullify the drop. Combine this with the fact that medivacs give a durable unit the ability to zip around (thus having the advantage of both speed and armor) and I feel like I'm constantly trying to fight off a Storm Spirit-Lifestealer infest bomb from DotA 2.
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EPT
