EPTOpinion on hellbat drop play - Page 2
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19320 Posts
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Strelok
Ukraine320 Posts
On July 03 2013 23:45 Faust852 wrote: When you scout hellbat drop, you still can lose the game because hellbat can kill so many scv even with a turret/bunker. With the banshee it's not the same, you can defend it with one AA tower and that's it, you wont sucide it to kill 2 drones while the drop hellbat, you just do it. Well right now you can defend a banshee just with 2 queens. So of course now it's not a problem ^^. I waste thon of money on starport, addon and banshee+inviz - and you just make 1 aa each base (or even just queens + overseer). And now imagine banshee that deals as much damage as hellbat drops. (remember, it has to be same powerfull - because now terran is not imba) | ||
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GudulesmSC2
102 Posts
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
On July 03 2013 23:54 Strelok wrote: Well right now you can defend a banshee just with 2 queens. So of course now it's not a problem ^^. I waste thon of money on starport, addon and banshee+inviz - and you just make 1 aa each base (or even just queens + overseer). And now imagine banshee that deals as much damage as hellbat drops. (remember, it has to be same powerfull - because now terran is not imba) I believe this is an issue as well. Did Blizzard ever state why they made it so Spores only require Pool in HOTS instead of evo? Right now you can't even catch a Zerg with it's pants down. | ||
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Lorch
Germany3691 Posts
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Wakimomo
Sweden53 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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mechengineer123
Ukraine711 Posts
On July 03 2013 20:57 Markwerf wrote: The buff in return should be very small though because terran 'losing' hellbat drops is a very small nerf for them given how easily you can play without it. It's not about "being able" to play without them composition wise. The mere possibility of hellbat drops is a huge factor in tvz. If you remove/nerf them, the exact same thing happens as after the queen patch: the zerg isn't scared anymore so he does the awesome 2 lings 80 drones into gg build. | ||
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HeeroFX
United States2704 Posts
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mechengineer123
Ukraine711 Posts
On July 03 2013 23:58 Tenks wrote: I believe this is an issue as well. Did Blizzard ever state why they made it so Spores only require Pool in HOTS instead of evo? Right now you can't even catch a Zerg with it's pants down. I believe it was because of protoss stargate play and zergs refusing to scout even after turbolord buff. | ||
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Thrillz
4313 Posts
The dilemma of this is: How do you change it in TvT without destroying it's role in the other matchups? | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On July 04 2013 00:03 mechengineer123 wrote: I believe it was because of protoss stargate play and zergs refusing to scout even after turbolord buff. I want turret without ebay too, some P just managed to get an oracle a 4:50 in my base  | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
- Why should Hellbats be so ridiculously cost efficient, giving a huge kill potential for a tiny investment. The best "illogical" example was played last weekends MLG, where Moonglade faced Sound and killed off EIGHT Medivacs with two Hellbats each for only 24 Drones killed and still lost in the end. Such an harrassment should come at a big cost and be more of a risk. A full Medivac of Marines costs 200 minerals more and is less efficient at harrassment ... that does not make sense at all. - Does it make the game more interesting from a spectators pov if you have three super cheap and ez-mode drops at three bases at the same time? What if it is six of them in a TvT? | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On July 04 2013 00:05 Thrillz wrote: Problem: TvT is where it lies. It's fine in TvZ and TvP (essential in TvP in fact). The dilemma of this is: How do you change it in TvT without destroying it's role in the other matchups? Like they did in ZvZ, Missiles Turrets fucking 3 shooting Medivacs. :D /jk | ||
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Thrillz
4313 Posts
On July 03 2013 23:58 Tenks wrote: I believe this is an issue as well. Did Blizzard ever state why they made it so Spores only require Pool in HOTS instead of evo? Right now you can't even catch a Zerg with it's pants down. I think it was to stop fast/proxy widow mines? Of course the side effect is no more banshee/dt/oracle openings. | ||
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Aunvilgod
2653 Posts
1. Every nerf weakens race. 2. Terran is not imba now, so you don't need to nerf it. I am not convinced by this. Terran may not be imba but it is doing very good. Also in matchups other than TvT hellbats are not quite as heavily used. On top of that terran is the most versatile race. So even if hellbat drops disappear I very much doubt anything will change about terran winrates in Korea. What I am most concerned about is that Blizzard will in exchange for nerfing hellbats reduce the gas cost of cloak which would lead to some shitty coinflip bullshit. I'd much rather see a buff for banshees which makes them more viable in the later stages of the game. | ||
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Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
But the important thing in HotS is (besides what was mentioned in the OP): 1. Does defending hellbat drops eliminate most opening strategies of P and Z? Does it pigeonhole them into 1 or 2 builds because they have to defend these things well? I'm not sure yet. Too soon to tell, but I do know fancy stargate into phoenix openings look cool defending hellbat drops... but probably die to a big 2 base bio push (bio + hellbat push?). 2. Does Terran's powerful midgame army in combination with hellbat drops allow Terran to get too far ahead economically? In TvP for instance, I don't see why Terrans don't just threaten hellbat drops, spot lots of defense, then take a total of 4 bases ASAP. With bunker or plan. fortress defense, zealot runbys don't do much. Protoss will be stuck on 2 bases a long time, so doubtful they can go on the map and mount a big attack. Still too early to tell. I hope no changes are made for a longer. | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
The effects of such a change would admittedly change TvP openers a bit, since nowadays, people normally open up with engi bay due to possible oracles, so it'd probably have very minimal effects on surviving the oracles, but it'd possibly allow terran to be slightly greedier, which isn't (necesarily) a good thing. For TvZ, the effect would be minimal at best, since when it'd matter, people will have 2 engi bays down anyway. Edit: For TvT it'd ofcourse make banshee's even less viable. Personally I think they should go with a buff on them regardless of what they do, but start with making cloak 150/150 with same research time and see where that lands us. I don't think basically removing hellbat drops as an option and adding banshees as the byfar best option instead is a smart thing. | ||
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
On July 04 2013 00:15 Zarahtra wrote: Personally I'd be most interested in doing it zerg style and removing the engi bay requirement of turrets(and rather say rax requirement). People keep saying "hellbat drops are only a problem in TvT" and then they go "we need to do a straight up nerf for all MUs". The effects of such a change would admittedly change TvP openers a bit, since nowadays, people normally open up with engi bay due to possible oracles, so it'd probably have very minimal effects on surviving the oracles, but it'd possibly allow terran to be slightly greedier, which isn't (necesarily) a good thing. For TvZ, the effect would be minimal at best, since when it'd matter, people will have 2 engi bays down anyway. But that would make Oracle openers even more worthless than they are at the moment. The only way an Oracle will really work is if they hit before you have your engi bay up. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19320 Posts
On July 04 2013 00:15 Zarahtra wrote: Personally I'd be most interested in doing it zerg style and removing the engi bay requirement of turrets(and rather say rax requirement). People keep saying "hellbat drops are only a problem in TvT" and then they go "we need to do a straight up nerf for all MUs". The effects of such a change would admittedly change TvP openers a bit, since nowadays, people normally open up with engi bay due to possible oracles, so it'd probably have very minimal effects on surviving the oracles, but it'd possibly allow terran to be slightly greedier, which isn't (necesarily) a good thing. For TvZ, the effect would be minimal at best, since when it'd matter, people will have 2 engi bays down anyway. DTs hate your idea. They already feel pretty useless but now detection is even easier. | ||
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hellokittySC2
United States395 Posts
 try playing zerg and protoss and defend against hellbat drops 3 stalkers can't defend vs 2 hellbats + medivac when you have to micro at 2-3 different fronts. | ||
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