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But I like stats  Usually when they are talking about statistics and results, it's at the beginning of the game anyway. Would you prefer Tasteless make some stupid comment during that time instead? When they mention that Innovation has an insane win-rate against zerg, I think "Oh man, he's in a group of 3 zergs, and THAT'S his winrate?! GG Zergs." I don't think you credit statistics nearly enough. The biggest problem is when they give stats (like for maps) when there have only been 1-5 games played on the map against miscellaneous opponents. Those are actually meaningless statistics. The sample size is too small. Shit, even Innovation's win-rate vs zerg has a small sample size, but it's enough to get something out of it.
Agree completely with Point 2 and 3 though. It's like that one video from Dustin Browder where he says "terrible terrible damage." Another thread covered this humorously a while back. Too lazy to find though. I'm sure if you searched terrible terrible damage you could find it. Link to infamous video.
When looking at tennis, both/all (usually) the commentators are ex-pros who both know plenty about the sport. Which is what every sport should try and do. With SC2, Idra is the best commentator ever. Whenever there is a HSC, the only thing I'm really interested in is actually seeing good players commentate. I usually only listen to the casts for the game sounds otherwise, indirectly listening to the casters. I don't mind Artosis or Khaldor/Wolf, though.
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I wish they would play up the rivalry between regions more (or at all). I had to keep checking online to remember which Korean came out of which region. I feel like they could build up rivalries out of that.
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On June 08 2013 02:57 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +ALSO STOP PREDICTING FIGHTS CASTERS. YOU NEVER HEAR A SPORTS ANNOUNCER PREDICT SOMEONE TO WIN WITH 30 SECONDS LEFT IN THE GAME WHEN THERE IS STILL ANY CHANCE. Actually, you do. Besides that it is also kinda stupid to have people again complaining that SC2 casters aren't good enough players and don't play enough, and at the same time we are again comparing it with regular sport announcers now. Most of them really won't be any good at the games they cover. Not to mention I believe most casters are fairly good players also.
It's not so much ability as it is depth of knowledge. Almost all sports casters are retired athletes or broadcasters who have tons of experience covering their sports, so there is a lot of knowledge there. Doesn't matter if McEnroe can play tennis very well anymore, but he did once and he knows the game well.
Edit: What we have now is a number of casters who just speak very very generically and just tell you what's happening. If it were radio, great, but we need casters to guide us through the game and to tell us things we don', but might want to know, not what we can see for ourselves.
I'm planning to do some analysis of some good casting and some bad (for both SC2 and more established entertainment), and i think that could be interesting.
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As i see it, there are the starcraft players and fans who understand the game and want deeper analysis and the complete noobs who see a link on twitter and click it.
I think major tournaments would rather have a more wide audience than only starcraft fans.
At first, it was a good idea because nobody really understood this game but now, it may be the time to move on and speak more about the game itself.
Sometimes, too easy is way worst than a bit difficult.
I agree with the OP in most of the points, though i really enjoy watching streams as it is.
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I was watching the WCS finals with my roommate who is just getting into the starcraft scene.
"It's like the casters are trying to be sports casters...but aren't really doing a good job of it"
pretty much sums it all up
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On June 08 2013 04:36 Vestige wrote:
I was watching the WCS finals with my roommate who is just getting into the starcraft scene.
"It's like the casters are trying to be sports casters...but aren't really doing a good job of it"
pretty much sums it all up
It's because they aren't sports casters. Technically anyone can cast a SC2/LoL/Dota2 game. We sort of have our own standards when it comes to this shit, but overall.. eek.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On June 08 2013 04:23 JP Dayne wrote:
I feel sad that I have to agree with the OP.
It seems the "industry" is trying to milk the money in a forced kinda way with how they present the content.
Their editorial settings should definetly be reviewed.
I don't think you can really call that a criticism of the industry-- obviously they want to make money. I think actually bringing in a different style of casting or commentating would in fact align with the industry making money. I suspect it's more a problem of identifying and deciding to solve the problem than whether or not anyone actually wants to solve it. I'm pretty sure everyone involved wants a good cast.
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why not have them act as sports casters? that would essentially fix all of the above issues.
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Personal preference, so I don't really agree with you. I feel like some people like those things and I don't mind.
The biggest turnoff for me is long waiting times between games and sets, that really turns me off, but other than that I'm fine with most of the stuff.
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On June 08 2013 04:40 Vestige wrote:
why not have them act as sports casters? that would essentially fix all of the above issues.
Sports casting isn't an easy trade to get into. I only know of a few guys who are in the industry who have any experience in radio/broadcasting/communications like TB. Rest were hobbyists with a passion for the game.
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On June 08 2013 03:04 LuisFrost wrote:
I agree 100% with the over use of buzzwords. It makes me feel like the casters have no idea about what they're talking about.
That's what I was going to write. Good criticism OP!
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On June 08 2013 02:32 Reflexz wrote:
You just put everything I have been thinking about SC2 casters over the past few months in perfect words.
I feel as if the root of the problem is the casters we have today just aren't very good at SC2. If anyone watches the Korean GOM and even Proleague commentators you can tell. They call timings before they happen and even entire builds within 3 minutes into the game and then explain the significance of it. It's simply because the Korean commentators are actually good at the game.
I know some Korean commentators face some pros on the KR ladder. Don't you think the Korean commentators are going to be able to give insightful information when they are playing the pros. Yes.
The english casters need to get better at SC2. I am tired of stats and random hype words. I want to know build order counters, scouting information, ordinary builds vs cheesey builds. I have seen some english commentators cast a game where a Terran goes 11 rax 11 gas vs a zerg and he explains that the Terran will do a reaper expand. Yeah.. But he is going to be putting a lot of aggression on with faster reapers..
Artosis/Wolf are Masters level on the korean ladder, I think that is good enough.
Khaldor is also qutie a good caster even though he isn't quite as skilled (I think)
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On June 08 2013 04:45 isaachukfan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 02:32 Reflexz wrote:
You just put everything I have been thinking about SC2 casters over the past few months in perfect words.
I feel as if the root of the problem is the casters we have today just aren't very good at SC2. If anyone watches the Korean GOM and even Proleague commentators you can tell. They call timings before they happen and even entire builds within 3 minutes into the game and then explain the significance of it. It's simply because the Korean commentators are actually good at the game.
I know some Korean commentators face some pros on the KR ladder. Don't you think the Korean commentators are going to be able to give insightful information when they are playing the pros. Yes.
The english casters need to get better at SC2. I am tired of stats and random hype words. I want to know build order counters, scouting information, ordinary builds vs cheesey builds. I have seen some english commentators cast a game where a Terran goes 11 rax 11 gas vs a zerg and he explains that the Terran will do a reaper expand. Yeah.. But he is going to be putting a lot of aggression on with faster reapers..
Artosis/Wolf are Masters level on the korean ladder, I think that is good enough. Khaldor is also qutie a good caster even though he isn't quite as skilled (I think)
I actually don't really think it's a matter of skill level. I mean, yes, I like the fact that Artosis, Wolf, and Khaldor are excellent players, but what I think is more of an issue is a decision to engage or not engage the game on a more intellectual level. I think some casters, especially the english-language casters working for Gom, do this quite well, but that's about it. I don't think the other casters are incapable of doing it at all, either. I think it's more that what makes you popular and what gets you hired by tourneys or organizations isn't just your ability/willingness to analyze, it's your ability/willingness to fill airspace and hype. It's pretty hard to talk for 30 solid minutes about a game, and it's still hard even with a co-caster. To do so intelligently (with the depth of say, someone talking about the game after the fact for just 5 minutes) is difficult and is also not what people are looking for a lot of the time. It's not like anyone is TRYING to not give analysis, it's just that we haven't done a good job of showing that it's what we want.
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On June 08 2013 04:45 isaachukfan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 02:32 Reflexz wrote:
You just put everything I have been thinking about SC2 casters over the past few months in perfect words.
I feel as if the root of the problem is the casters we have today just aren't very good at SC2. If anyone watches the Korean GOM and even Proleague commentators you can tell. They call timings before they happen and even entire builds within 3 minutes into the game and then explain the significance of it. It's simply because the Korean commentators are actually good at the game.
I know some Korean commentators face some pros on the KR ladder. Don't you think the Korean commentators are going to be able to give insightful information when they are playing the pros. Yes.
The english casters need to get better at SC2. I am tired of stats and random hype words. I want to know build order counters, scouting information, ordinary builds vs cheesey builds. I have seen some english commentators cast a game where a Terran goes 11 rax 11 gas vs a zerg and he explains that the Terran will do a reaper expand. Yeah.. But he is going to be putting a lot of aggression on with faster reapers..
Artosis/Wolf are Masters level on the korean ladder, I think that is good enough. Khaldor is also qutie a good caster even though he isn't quite as skilled (I think)
Wolf isn't master. SNM and Whiplash are however.
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On June 08 2013 04:19 Sabu113 wrote:
Some things about the professional side of sc2 are too friendly and not efficient enough.
This is a big one for me. A recent example was WCS America. The community was crying out for Bitterdam to cast the finals, but it went to Axslav and Axeltoss instead. Mr Bitter's response to the issue was a great example of this "friendly" attitude we see in eSports.
"Dude, absolutely not. Ax and Ax carried this thing from day one. One of our conditions for being here was that we DON'T take their final.
Show those guys some love. They've been busting their asses for weeks, and deserve this final."
They deserve it? Maybe so but it's really not about what those two guys deserve. It's about putting out the best possible product and keeping your audience happy. The same thing happened at NASL, having Incontrol and Gretorp cast the finals with Tastosis sitting right there and the community begging for them to do it instead. Personal relationships getting in the way of making good business decisions. Tournament organizers would rather take a hit to their viewer count than face the uncomfortableness of giving their friends the hard truth. It's actually mind boggling that this can happen in an industry that is trying to get the world to take it seriously.
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On June 08 2013 04:19 ROOTNathanias wrote:
A lot of brutal truths about casting atm. The only bit I can offer is that as someone who literally only consumes SC2 Content (no TV, books, other games, etc) 24/7, we are expected to know a ridiculous amount of information off-hand at any given moment, and although I can read into a TvP and tell you all about the little things the players do its frustratingly difficult to stay on top of things like go4sc2cup results when it comes to the aforementioned Krass vs Harstem match. Keep in mind the only people who are paid to cast are the ones you see at live events 99% of the time, or if they have a studio like MLG or ESL.
I think another hindrance is that while I don't mind doing research, almost none of us have production like GOM that will feed us those interesting per map/race stats. Even if I'm busy casting another part of an event, and miss a series where Vibe does a new ZvP build, suddenly I'm a terrible caster for not knowing this was the game 3 all-in he did at the last dream hack.
It's not easy for anyone and while we certainly are aware of your problems, there are many pieces of production that are missing where the tournament organisers can make that information so much more accessibl
I tried not to make this a rant but I just want to agree with you while also making it known that we aren't just ignoring you while counting stacks of bills.
This article isn't saying you have to have encyclopedic knowledge of every tournament's statistics to be a good caster. It's saying you have to know what hell the players are doing and what the implications of those actions are.
You're also blaming the equipment for a lack of expertise in your position (you're a caster from what it sounds like). You could stream at 240p and have a fuzzy mic, but still feed people solid steaks as far as content goes about the game itself and not the salad of cliches and arbitrary, useless information that SinCitta is talking about.
I know, it's easy for all of us to sit from a far and criticize when we're not the ones actually doing the job. But success in professional positions have standards that need to be met and/or exceeded in order for you thrive in, and a huge percentage of casters simply fail to meet those standards.
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On June 08 2013 05:06 Bobo_XIII wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 04:19 ROOTNathanias wrote:
A lot of brutal truths about casting atm. The only bit I can offer is that as someone who literally only consumes SC2 Content (no TV, books, other games, etc) 24/7, we are expected to know a ridiculous amount of information off-hand at any given moment, and although I can read into a TvP and tell you all about the little things the players do its frustratingly difficult to stay on top of things like go4sc2cup results when it comes to the aforementioned Krass vs Harstem match. Keep in mind the only people who are paid to cast are the ones you see at live events 99% of the time, or if they have a studio like MLG or ESL.
I think another hindrance is that while I don't mind doing research, almost none of us have production like GOM that will feed us those interesting per map/race stats. Even if I'm busy casting another part of an event, and miss a series where Vibe does a new ZvP build, suddenly I'm a terrible caster for not knowing this was the game 3 all-in he did at the last dream hack.
It's not easy for anyone and while we certainly are aware of your problems, there are many pieces of production that are missing where the tournament organisers can make that information so much more accessibl
I tried not to make this a rant but I just want to agree with you while also making it known that we aren't just ignoring you while counting stacks of bills. This article isn't saying you have to have encyclopedic knowledge of every tournament's statistics to be a good caster. It's saying you have to know what hell the players are doing and what the implications of those actions are. You're also blaming the equipment for a lack of expertise in your position (you're a caster from what it sounds like). You could stream at 240p and have a fuzzy mic, but still feed people solid steaks as far as content goes about the game itself and not the salad of cliches and arbitrary, useless information that SinCitta is talking about. I know, it's easy for all of us to sit from a far and criticize when we're not the ones actually doing the job. But success in professional positions have standards that need to be met and/or exceeded in order for you thrive in, and a huge percentage of casters simply fail to meet those standards.
Indeed, look no one is safe when it comes to criticism of your ability to dissect a game. We do it to everyone regardless of the sport or how much time you served in the business. For instance we butcher the NHL analysts in the NHL thread all the time. This isn't what the OP is really aiming for though. He's looking at the blueprint in which we go about the process.
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Speaking loudly and excitedly during every engagement is also counterproductive
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Yeah it bothers me when casters says both players are good/excellent every time. Most time most of the audience knows which one is the weaker player and casters should be more ruthless telling it openly.
For example, random european zerg faces Innovation: "This is going to be rough ride for our challenger (nick) to play vs top caliber zerg killer like Innovation." Random chatting how he got unlucky with bracket/groups to add hype. Giving slim hope for underdog. If Innovation loses first map then casters should start finding flaws from Innovations play to add more hype if he loses BO3 or praise well executed cheese etc. So on and so on.
Sometimes casters cant see who is weaker player and who is expected to win. Perhaps I have too much BW in my mind.
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On June 08 2013 03:42 stokes17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 02:57 Sissors wrote:ALSO STOP PREDICTING FIGHTS CASTERS. YOU NEVER HEAR A SPORTS ANNOUNCER PREDICT SOMEONE TO WIN WITH 30 SECONDS LEFT IN THE GAME WHEN THERE IS STILL ANY CHANCE. Actually, you do. Besides that it is also kinda stupid to have people again complaining that SC2 casters aren't good enough players and don't play enough, and at the same time we are again comparing it with regular sport announcers now. Most of them really won't be any good at the games they cover. Not to mention I believe most casters are fairly good players also. Idn if its this way in Europe or the rest of the world. But in American sports almost always one of the casters is a well known former player/coach. Usually accompanied by 1/2 communication professionals (Reggie miller, charles barkley, john madden, coach lou, Dick Vitel, van gundy, Jay Bilas, I could go on). So looking to traditional professional sports, I don't think you can really say the commentators "really won't be good at the games at all." Most of those people I name are hall of fame level.
They WERE good at the game, they aren't anymore. While I have no idea who those people are, I am fairly sure they are compared to the best simply horrible currently. And look at the SC2 casters, many of them play at a fairly high level, or have been playing at a fairly high/(almost) pro level.
What I like about SC2 casters compared to sport casters is that in general they are much more 'self-made' famous. There are a whole bunch of casters, and everyone can become one. Granted now it is a bit harder, but at the beginning of SC2 it really was a pretty level playing field (sure there was broodwar influence, but still). You can't just become a sport caster, that is much more about having the correct connections.
Then if I look at the sport casters in the Netherlands. Mart Smeets is well known here. Mainly casts speed skating and road bicycle racing. I think his former career as basketball player doesn't really help him that much with it. Then we have also Jack van Gelder, who does the football (the real football, not handegg) stuff. He has never played any sports at anywhere near professional level. And sure there are also those who do have a former profesional career in the sports they cast (usually they are co-casters of those without), but pretty much none of them will now be good (profesional good) at the sports they cast, and enough of them haven't ever been good at them.
Then add that stuff I reacted on that was capitalized how sport casters never predict what will happen, which is just incorrect, and I really think that people who say SC2 casters should behave more like sport casters will only say that when it suits them.
Something else, regarding the casters being too enthousiastic and not 'objective' enough. Thats their job. I agree sometimes they do it too much, but their job isn't too point out every mistake made and how every code A player is horrible compared to top of Code S, their job is to entertain. I am a masters player, and of course that isn't anything special. But it does mean I really will know myself that that early probe that is going the wrong direction will be making a proxystargate, I don't need the casters to explain that. So why don't I disable the sound? Because it is nice listening to comments from the casters.
It is not only boring for the viewers, it is also damaging for the players. To a lot of people, "faceless Koreans" are just some numbers, their race winrates, because nobody bothers to talk about their play.
Those Koreans will stay faceless unless there really is something special about them. Either out of game, or ingame, but since that isn't the case for the majority of them there is really no way a non-Korean generally will connect with them (with a few exceptions).
However what surprises me:
Then, there are buzzwords. The video says YugiOh is showing solid play. Somewhere else in the video you will find that Soulkey plays aggressively.
Huh? You just complained that they didn't talk about his play. Okay this is the play in this game and not in general, but I think their general play style will be really hard to quantify, since either it is just average or it varies alot.
But here they do give their playstyle in the game. Playing solid or aggressive aren't buzzwords, they are playstyles. I can agree that especially solid is probably overused, but still it has a pretty clear meaning, at least to me (a conventional strategy with few mistakes). And well aggressive looks really clear to me.
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EPT
