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Criticism on the state of SC2 coverage - Page 4

Forum Index > SC2 General
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nottapro
Profile Joined August 2012
202 Posts
June 07 2013 20:52 GMT
#61
I turn off the sound sometimes or listen to the korean stream (a language I cant understand) because I find the casters exceptionally misleading with their analysis. I found myself developing a lot of bad habits and misunderstandings about how the game works by adopting their philosophies and advice.
Sein
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1811 Posts
June 07 2013 20:52 GMT
#62
On June 08 2013 02:50 BronzeKnee wrote:
Idra is one of my favorite casters due to these problems in OP. It also why I enjoy Artosis and Tasteless.

And this goes back to bringing in E-Sports personalities who know nothing about the game. How many times have we seen "pretty" female hosts do interviews that are totally devoid of substance simply because they know nothing about SC2?

It is sad that the major organizations choose to hire from outside of the SC2 scene just for good looks or a nice voice.


A bit strange you mention Tasteless as someone you enjoy because you agree with the criticisms in the OP when he probably is the epitome of the examples listed in OP.
Reborn8u
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States1761 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-07 20:55:30
June 07 2013 20:54 GMT
#63
What a great problem to have. "Some of the massive amount of free content I get from this awesome game, and it's awesome competitive scene, doesn't measure up to my standards".
:)
NonY
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
8748 Posts
June 07 2013 21:05 GMT
#64
On June 08 2013 05:54 Reborn8u wrote:
What a great problem to have. "Some of the massive amount of free content I get from this awesome game, and it's awesome competitive scene, doesn't measure up to my standards".

The pursuit of excellence is one of the few things in this world you can't denounce from any angle. And this criticism was written voluntarily and given freely, same as the content.
"Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'
Kurbz
Profile Joined April 2011
Australia88 Posts
June 07 2013 21:05 GMT
#65
amazing post, thank you for putting in the time to put into words the thoughts many of us have.
Never argue with an idiot, they will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
JP Dayne
Profile Joined June 2013
538 Posts
June 07 2013 21:11 GMT
#66
On June 08 2013 05:54 Reborn8u wrote:
What a great problem to have. "Some of the massive amount of free content I get from this awesome game, and it's awesome competitive scene, doesn't measure up to my standards".


so your point is, if they're free, they should not be criticized?
....
I hate when people play this card -_-'

and it's not MY standards. It's called being reasonable.
Wampaibist
Profile Joined July 2010
United States478 Posts
June 07 2013 21:11 GMT
#67
I liked the first video
Elldar
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden287 Posts
June 07 2013 21:13 GMT
#68
On June 08 2013 02:20 SinCitta wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

First of all, let me preface that this isn't a bash of the persons involved in the examples. It's something prevalent in SC2 content and I could have easily chosen many others that fall into the same kind of trap. I am grateful that we have all the content producers in the scene. But I feel some things need to improve to move content quality forward.

In order to get hyped up for the WCS Season 1 Finals, I thought "hey, Blizzard has a team in San Francisco now, might check out what they are doing". After having somewhat problems even finding that channel, this is what I found.




Transcript:
"JangBi coming in first in the group, playing extremely well. Really showing some fantastic play. Game 1... I believe this was, versus Swagger (?). Craaaazy impressive set, normally, you know, we are not the greatest fans of PvP, but wow, this... errr some incredible matches in last night's up and downs. And then, YugiOh, actually, making it out as well, going 3:1, really solid play out of him and I can't just believe that Gumiho went out 0:3. That absolutely blew me away."

+ Show Spoiler +

It's the transcript of the first part of the show and is characteristic for the rest of it and also the sequel of the video. Look at the following problems:

Problem 1: Telling me about stats and results instead of telling me about the games
Problem 2: Buzzwords, meaningless compliments and cliches about players
Problem 3: Confuse giving information with creating hype, resulting in having none of both


Problem 1

It could have been easily written by someone that didn't watch the games at all. Check the live report thread for a minute, then think of something, write it down and then present it. I am not saying that this is the case, I am saying that it appears like this outputwise. If I cared about the result, I wouldn't be watching the video, I would have looked the results up on Liquipedia, the live report thread, on Reddit, on the WCS page, on my local esports website, ... What I want to know when I watch a video about it is a summary of what happened in the games.

And talking about race winrates of a player still doesn't mean you are talking about the game. Stats are nice accompanying information to games, but not more. You are still talking about stats. You know who is the best about giving meaningful information purely with statistical information without knowing one bit about the game? Monsieur Aligulac.

It is not only boring for the viewers, it is also damaging for the players. To a lot of people, "faceless Koreans" are just some numbers, their race winrates, because nobody bothers to talk about their play. The SC2 talk is superficial most of the time compared to the talk in other games while it is (in my opinion) a more complex game. Unfortunately, so complex that many just opt to drop the intracacies of strategies completely. Don't forget that the best way to have people watch the next tournament, the tournament after that etc. is to have them hooked on the game and players, not numbers.

Problem 2

What have we learned about JangBi? He is good, he plays well - nay, his place is fantastic. The set he plays in is impressive and he is the reason why I overcame my dislike for PvPs. His matches were incredible!

Yes, it does happen in normal sports coverage that the commentator says: "Robben plays well today...". But he doesn't say it again and again with the same breath. And more importantly: He says why he thinks he plays well today. "...he is very visible, running up and down the pitch. He helps in the defense which isn't very typical of him"-

Saying it like in the video makes you really wonder if JangBi played well after all. Did he play that well or are you just hyping the game because Blizzard pays you for it? A sports commentator doing the same in normal sports would make a parody out of his job.

I think the origin of Problem 2 is that casters, commentators and presenters are very afraid to say something substantial with the risk of being bashed because of it. Instead they fallback to meaningless compliments. I show how well I know the players by complimenting those that are hyped up right now. And conversely, we dislike PvP normally because this is the mainstream consensus.

Then, there are buzzwords. The video says YugiOh is showing solid play. Somewhere else in the video you will find that Soulkey plays aggressively. Buzzwords always somehow hit the mark. They sound like the speaker knows his stuff. But on closer inspection, they leave you unsatisfied. Someone that knows SC2 will want to know: What exactly did YugiOh do to classify him as solid in the series? And it will take some time to realize that aggressive is the codeword for roach baneling all-ins. Someone that doesn't know SC2 too well will think "What does solid play mean? And why is that good? It sounds boring and uneventful" whereas aggressive signalizes high-paced and action packed play. Again, explain what is happening instead of hiding behind words.

In the same category fall cliches about players. Best example, how often have you heard TLO being labeled as creative or Ret being labeled as greedy? Sometimes casters hold on so much to their preconceived opinions that they completely ignore what is happening on the map. For example in the WCS EU Challenger match between KrasS and Harstem, Harstem was seen as the overwhelming favorite against KrasS despite losing to KrasS only very recently on two separate occasions. Later the caster admitted he didn't know much about the EU scene at all and just assumed Harstem was the favorite because he just won a tournament and was on top of Reddit.

Problem 3
Watch this video:



Which video hypes you up more? Which one should you show a friend to convince him to watch the event? The video produced by the former IPL staff or this fanmade video. For me, it is the low-end fanmade and somewhat cheesy trailer and the conservative formula: Players' faces, ingame clips and dramatic music. "But you said you wanted more information about game" - Yes, I want both. But more importantly, mixing these things up isn't fun. Either the information is hyping things up by itself - or it doesn't. The weather forecast isn't going to get more interesting by speaking it with a dramatic voice.

In fact, most sports coverage you get on TV is hype. You rarely find the tactics table taken out. There needs to be separate hype videos for WCS. Hype leads to more live viewers, more than "high level of play" (how do you even know you get high level of play until the games are over?).

Yes, talking about the games alone creates hype - but don't expect it to do it as well as a hype video. And don't mix these things up. Who exactly is attracted by results spoken out in a dramatic voice? Tell me why I should watch the next games, not why I should have watched the past ones! If you make a recap, give me a summary of the games rather than trying to sell them to me.

Solving the problems

An example how good a informational show around the games can be, I would like to give NASL's The Pulse as an example. They talk about the games themselves, the players and the teams, not only report stats and results. The recaps (often) summarize the games well and yet are still brief. And the recaps are actually only a small part of the content! After the show, you feel you got more value than skimming over Liquipedia.

How to get more expertise into esports talk? In sports in TV, there are pundits. We have such a diverse and big pool of players that this shouldn't be a problem. Why do casters and commentators make predictions who make it out of the group. Ask players who they think will advance and put it on screen. What do they think about the games, who do they cheer for etc, etc.

Hype videos: It should be a priority for tournament organizers to make them. I regularly find hype videos for Dreamhack on Reddit. There is even a hype video for the Homestory Cup (one guy in an apartment and capable helpers) on top of Reddit on the weekend of the WCS Season 1 Finals (Blizzard)! And yes, Blizzard, you are a tournament organizer now as well!

Of course, one could always say, it doesn't fit the show's format. And I wouldn't blame for example LiveOnThree for how they do things. But those that focus on SC2, why should your show exist in the first place if you get more information in five minutes on Liquipedia?


Yeah, I have to agree with you on most of your post but you must have choosen the best example to do so. That recap is despicable I watch it and did not even knew what it was supposed to be. It was not a recap since they never talked about any key moments of the matches nor was it informative since they just put up some result but never talked about whom they played against and what that result meant, who will they play against next.

So that transcript should be more like:

"JangBi coming in first in group x with, [insert other players of the group], playing extremely well. Really showing some fantastic play. Game 1 versus Swagger, he played an impressive PvPs. And then, YugiOh making it out as well, going 3:1 in total. Showing some really solid play. (Make in-game clip and explain or show final battle) . I can't just believe that Gumiho beat (whom he played against) convincingly with a stunning 0:3. That absolutely blew me away."
VasHeR
Profile Joined June 2011
166 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-07 21:16:35
June 07 2013 21:15 GMT
#69
Hey OP, hope you read this and add it to your list of problems, because this one pisses me off more than all the things you listed.
I HATE it when after the final game of the grand finals of a tournament, the casters say (literally exactly this) "Well, that's it." They don't even sound excited or anything at all. And the majority of casters are guilty of this.
I dislike Day9's entire casting style cuz he (nothing personal, just my opinion) has a too nerdy vibe and makes nerdy sound effects and squeals and other stuff, but he is really pumped after the championship has been won and appropriately, reflectively gives praise to the performance of the winner (and 2nd place finisher and others ofc) and does a great job transitioning from that point into the interview/award ceremony.
Seriously, you other casters really need to take a lesson in showmanship from Day9.
for real..."...Well... that's it. Thanks for tuning in, guys."... Are you fuckin kidding me?
Ochrow
Profile Joined November 2011
United States110 Posts
June 07 2013 21:15 GMT
#70
Overall I agree with most of this article, in actual casts there tends to be a much heavier lean towards creating hype at the sake of analysis. Part of this comes down to it is the job of the casters to make the games exciting, and when the games being casted are anything but, it becomes rather difficult to do that, but the casters need to find another means of doing so away from just throwing out the same buzzwords and yelling really loudly.

I do however have an issue with the example used at the beginning. While the majority of the article covers issues with casts as well as some with hype surrounding events the clip that was shown from WCS Today has a completely separate purpose from anything discussed in the OP. It is supposed to be a quick clip news show to go over recent events and update viewers on what has been happening. The way that they do it, in fact, is almost identical to ESPN's sportscenter or similar shows. The OP then compares it to a pure hype video and asks which one is better for hyping, and of course the answer is going to be the HYPE video. WCS Today is used, as any media surrounding an event would be, to try and interest potential viewers in watching the event but more than that their main focus is giving a fast summary of what has happened, and a brief preview of what is to come. I really don't think you compare these very different styles as they are aiming for completely different things. The problem that I see is that in many live casts you see the same methodology used as in WCS Today, and that IS a problem, but shows like WCS Today and SportsCenter and the like have their own place.
HITE Sparkyz #1 in BW, #1 in my <3
vitonga
Profile Joined February 2011
United States45 Posts
June 07 2013 21:18 GMT
#71
This is a really good thread. Thanks, OP.
As much as I agree with your criticism, we must remind ourselves that doing anything live, sometimes in front of a camera, can make people nervous, and such. Often these "performers" have a "comfort zone" in which they can always come back to a safe haven, leading them to cliches, etc. A caster can be enthusiastic, but lack the knowledge, and vice versa. I see your point but there are several casters around that posses a pretty strong knowledge of the game and call out strats ahead of time. Artosis, Apollo, Wolf, Khaldor, to name a few.
"...but korean imba"-MC
Mentalizor
Profile Joined January 2011
Denmark1596 Posts
June 07 2013 21:20 GMT
#72
In my opinion it really depends on the experience of the caster. The more experienced (or just plain "the better") caster will often not ruin casts by overusing buzzwords.

I think some of the less known casters often fall back on the buzzwords, where the ones I really respect (e.g. Kaelaris, Artosis, Apollo) will often keep it clean.

+ hype can be a powerful tool. I know TL has a love/hate relationship with Tasteless, but I honestly think he's soooo good at hyping (remember the MVP v Squirtle battlecruiser/mamaship battle?!?)
(yಠ,ಠ)y - Y U NO ALL IN? - rtsAlaran: " I somehow sit inside the bus.Hot_Bit giving me a massage"
Gben592
Profile Joined August 2012
United Kingdom281 Posts
June 07 2013 21:26 GMT
#73
Couldn't agree more. Casters really need to just... know what the hell they're talking about.

Some casters do though: Artosis and Tastless (the best), and it always seems like Day[9] knows his shit too. (and funnily enough, Idra is a great caster (in terms of analysis and actually knowing what's going on).

Personally I also have a major problem with casters who have heavy accents or slur words etc (annoying voices)... but whatever it's harsh to call them out on that
"The more skilled player is the one who wins, and I don't think there's better balance than what we have now." INnoVation
Cognak
Profile Joined December 2012
United States7 Posts
June 07 2013 21:31 GMT
#74
Really great post and i could not agree more. Thank you for taking the time to do it.
ajxPurpleRain
Profile Joined July 2012
United States87 Posts
June 07 2013 21:32 GMT
#75
Well-played. The first goal of most casters is to "grow ESPORts," which is fine, but comes off as overeager and desperate a lot of the time. Obviously, sports coverage in general will involve a lot of hype and repetition, but in our community it seems like the proselytizing bent is especially obvious. I think all this "awesome," "amazing games," "I really hope this set goes to a third game because, these games HAVE BEEN BLOWING MY MIND" nonsense has a place, but seems to come out of insecurity. If heaven forbid, the PvP on offer is dreadful, most casters wouldn't dare to say so lest this niche pursuit seem unimportant.

I think the only way out of this particular rhetorical morass is to get specific about the game, to go into detail, to have more facts, more thoughts about the strategy. Real attention to the game's narrow timings and the bravery of player's strategic choices based on limited information will convey the what that makes the game good rather than the should.

Also: Casters have to immediately stop, at the penalty of a hefty fine say such and such is "really annoying." There are pesky occasions when annoyance is the right characterization (say probe on drone harass) but when a perfectly timed counter drop can only be talked about as an irritant, than the game is being sold short. It's almost as if the shininess of SC2's death ball battles is distracting the casters from the fact that it is the snowballing effect of those smaller moments that really decide a good game. And, if both players 1a into each other, than no matter how many laser effects we see on screen, the players involved should be made fun of.

Let's not forget either how descriptive making fun of bad players is--how important it is to our understanding of the game. Remember theBestFou or ActionJesuz or BitByBit? Remember InControl talking about Muta v Muta battles? You probably do. Whereas, the lies and the terrible, terrible damage and who won often recedes from memory.

Only want to see you /dancing in the PurpleRain.
TheAmazombie
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States3714 Posts
June 07 2013 21:33 GMT
#76
Agree, great article. One other thing that casters do a lot that annoys the crap out of me is that too many of them ask questions of their cocasters, "What do you think, do you think he is doing for x?" In athletic sports coverage, you don't hear a play by play man asking a color guy "Do you think he is going to throw a strike now?" or "What do you think of the squeeze play here in this position?"

It makes them sound like they don't know what they are talking about. As professional casters they should be trying to emulate casters from other fields of play, other professionals.
We think too much and feel too little. More than machinery, we need humanity. More than cleverness, we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost. -Charlie Chaplin
purgerinho
Profile Joined June 2008
Croatia919 Posts
June 07 2013 21:34 GMT
#77
all of you should stop with comparing sport commentators with sc2 commentators because level of organization is different, sports have more tradition, strategies and known informations than few months old hots.. and you are comparing team sports to 1v1 e-sport, cmon! you can't commentate 3-4-5-6 tennis matches in a day and there is only few big tournaments in a year with four (+/- one) players that will beat everyone... and it lasts for years, informations are more accessible etc, etc, etc.. during match there are breaks (rounds in MMA and other fighting sports) so you can watch replays and predict what will (maybe) happen next and what were mistakes. Most important thing is that they have time to get some air and find good words. In sc2 you have no time, you have to react in second and most of those guys aren't professionals

compare them with individual sports.. i mean, you can hear so much BS when you are watching UFC and those guys are paid much more money, they have months to prepare and less players (fighters) to analyze.. and in the end, it is individual sport so some individual could do something you saw for a first time.. try to guess what will dimaga do when you are watching him.. and AGAIN, hots is a few months old game, sc2 is less than 3yrs old game and every sport you are talking about is "here" for decades..

this is a good OP but it is a bit unfair, just like comments...
SUMMARIZED (by DeMu): You CANNOT surprise a top level Protoss with a build
251
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States1401 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-07 21:39:08
June 07 2013 21:36 GMT
#78
There can always be improvement. It's important threads like these remain constructive and not nitpicking or bashing. I think you bring up some fine points and second those. A lot of times I enjoy the useless banter and squeals and awkwardness in an ironic way, as in I'm laughing at it, or just get off on cringe-worthy humor. But all in all, that off-topic humming and hawing that some casters are guilty of has got to go. You never hear Korean casters do that stuff and they always have interesting/in-depth points to make on the game at hand. This is obviously a skill you earn that can take years of experience. I would like to see more professionalism and HYPE brought to the games, but even now I think the game itself is partially at fault too. But I digress. A lot of the casters work hard, are casting for many long hours in a row and are doing a good job so far. Here's to improvement along the way.
"If you can chill..........then chill."
snakeeyez
Profile Joined May 2011
United States1231 Posts
June 07 2013 21:38 GMT
#79
Yeah you are kind of right some of the casters just tell you what your watching on the screen and then yell really loud over the most insignificant things.
SinCitta
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Germany2127 Posts
June 07 2013 21:41 GMT
#80
On June 08 2013 04:31 Blargh wrote:
But I like stats Usually when they are talking about statistics and results, it's at the beginning of the game anyway. Would you prefer Tasteless make some stupid comment during that time instead? When they mention that Innovation has an insane win-rate against zerg, I think "Oh man, he's in a group of 3 zergs, and THAT'S his winrate?! GG Zergs." I don't think you credit statistics nearly enough. The biggest problem is when they give stats (like for maps) when there have only been 1-5 games played on the map against miscellaneous opponents. Those are actually meaningless statistics. The sample size is too small. Shit, even Innovation's win-rate vs zerg has a small sample size, but it's enough to get something out of it.


I don't want to get rid of stats. Stats are fun, Aligulac is fun! But if you hardly speak about the games and only about results and stats, you are not producing great content.

On June 08 2013 05:41 Sissors wrote:
However what surprises me:
Show nested quote +
Then, there are buzzwords. The video says YugiOh is showing solid play. Somewhere else in the video you will find that Soulkey plays aggressively.

Huh? You just complained that they didn't talk about his play. Okay this is the play in this game and not in general, but I think their general play style will be really hard to quantify, since either it is just average or it varies alot.

But here they do give their playstyle in the game. Playing solid or aggressive aren't buzzwords, they are playstyles. I can agree that especially solid is probably overused, but still it has a pretty clear meaning, at least to me (a conventional strategy with few mistakes). And well aggressive looks really clear to me.


Yes, buzzwords are okay if they are followed up with something. But here, they are used as the opposite of an ice breaker (to start the conversation). They are used to avoid talking about the games in detail. It's this little "swindle" in our language, where we think we feel informed in the beginning and wonder what it actually entails afterwards.

--

And a lot of talk about casters in general. I guess this can't be avoided and admittedly, the boundaries are blurred. There are lots of things casters can do or should avoid, it is very hard to do and I didn't really want to go into it much. I was more talking about the content you have going into the tournament and after it. And I felt it left much to be desired. Not necessarily because the work is not done, but because sometimes not the right work is done.
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