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On April 05 2013 04:38 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:33 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:30 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 04:18 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:16 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 04:14 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:59 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:55 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:46 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:28 Technique wrote:
[quote]
A coach can't have a proper observation of your game unless he's as high a level as you are... which like i said before, players can help each other with such ''coaching''. The offline tournament stress should be gone after a few tournaments as well.
And didn't i mention that you can't compare this to old sports? For obvious reasons.
No, you don't need to be as good as a progamer in terms of mechanical skill to actually be good at understanding the game. Some one who is not actively training will at best be able to follow the metagame and recognize the timings from a observer point of view... that's nothing special/useful. You will need to get ahead of the curve and estimate timings/strats with limited information if you want to separate yourself from the other ''top'' players. What kind of understanding can you bring to the table if it comes to the pro scene? Lots of players gain insight from watching the games and understanding the timings, because they don't have the problems you have as a player, which is incomplete information. They can immediately tell during or after a game how the timings will work out, where you could have improved or how to create timings. Only because you are mechanically not fit doesn't mean you cannot create strategy. I'll never be as good as Korean pros, yet I can discuss strategy with my friends among the German / European pros, because I understand strategies and their problems as well as the timing windows, doesn't mean I'm mechanically capable of playing them or executing them. It's an illusion, you only think you can. There are so much variables that new game specific timings occur which you as non pro player won't recognize. Players like mvp are CONSTANTLY re adjusting and re evaluating the situation in game. Not to speak of having to deal with ''new'' strats in tournaments like GSL were people prepare specifically for one opponent. Either way, bored of this discussion. I think I can? I know I can and for what reason? Because the pros do agree with me on my opinion. It doesn't matter if you disagree and are bored with that discussion. It also doesn't matter because you cannot provide anything to counterproof that coaches are actually useful to players. PS: Most coaches were progamers to begin with. I keep asking him that question, but he keeps ignoring it. He knows he wrong, but just doesn't want to respond to the points that every professional in the industry and the results of numerous pro-leagues disagree with him. Neither of you brought forward any proper argument against what i was saying... I said a coach is not needed if you got self discipline and help/coach each other... MVP and Nestea commenting on each other their game and point out holes or asking what they have problems against etc is so much more valuable than some guy with a tight schedule... And this of course also works on a lower level with European/American pros... infact i think many European players are already like that... and it shows... So why does Flash have a coach? Or Life? Why did Team Liquid hire one? Why do all the pro-league teams have coaches? Are you saying these players are doing it wrong? We don't need to prove anything. The entire industry uses coaches and you are saying they are bad. Prove why. I don't say they are bad... i say they are not needed and not having one should not be used as an excuse. As for the actual training... yes actual players that want to make each other better like the MVP/Nestea example i gave (could of used Flash with whoever if it makes you happy?) is indeed were it's at... and not with some ''professional coach''. But try to give an actual argument other than so and so has a coach?
All of the Korean scene uses coaches and they are the best in the world. If you get a group of driven players together and they practice and you take another group of equal skill and drive, but give them a professional coach, the side with the coach does better.
It is fact, plain and simple. Players do better with coaches and support. A group of driven players can only get so good until a professional coach gets involved. It works in all professional sports and it works in SC2. That is my argument and you saying it is not enough does not make it less of a fact. The best players in the world work with the best coaches and win because of it.
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On April 05 2013 04:36 mdb wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:30 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 04:18 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:16 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 04:14 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:59 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:55 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:46 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:28 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:21 Type|NarutO wrote:
[quote]
Mindset, mentality, stress handling, scheduling, offering a neutral observation of your game. Why do professional sport athletes have coaches? Because they do have insight.
A coach can't have a proper observation of your game unless he's as high a level as you are... which like i said before, players can help each other with such ''coaching''. The offline tournament stress should be gone after a few tournaments as well. And didn't i mention that you can't compare this to old sports? For obvious reasons. No, you don't need to be as good as a progamer in terms of mechanical skill to actually be good at understanding the game. Some one who is not actively training will at best be able to follow the metagame and recognize the timings from a observer point of view... that's nothing special/useful. You will need to get ahead of the curve and estimate timings/strats with limited information if you want to separate yourself from the other ''top'' players. What kind of understanding can you bring to the table if it comes to the pro scene? Lots of players gain insight from watching the games and understanding the timings, because they don't have the problems you have as a player, which is incomplete information. They can immediately tell during or after a game how the timings will work out, where you could have improved or how to create timings. Only because you are mechanically not fit doesn't mean you cannot create strategy. I'll never be as good as Korean pros, yet I can discuss strategy with my friends among the German / European pros, because I understand strategies and their problems as well as the timing windows, doesn't mean I'm mechanically capable of playing them or executing them. It's an illusion, you only think you can. There are so much variables that new game specific timings occur which you as non pro player won't recognize. Players like mvp are CONSTANTLY re adjusting and re evaluating the situation in game. Not to speak of having to deal with ''new'' strats in tournaments like GSL were people prepare specifically for one opponent. Either way, bored of this discussion. I think I can? I know I can and for what reason? Because the pros do agree with me on my opinion. It doesn't matter if you disagree and are bored with that discussion. It also doesn't matter because you cannot provide anything to counterproof that coaches are actually useful to players. PS: Most coaches were progamers to begin with. I keep asking him that question, but he keeps ignoring it. He knows he wrong, but just doesn't want to respond to the points that every professional in the industry and the results of numerous pro-leagues disagree with him. Neither of you brought forward any proper argument against what i was saying... I said a coach is not needed if you got self discipline and help/coach each other... MVP and Nestea commenting on each other their game and point out holes or asking what they have problems against etc is so much more valuable than some guy with a tight schedule... And this of course also works on a lower level with European/American pros... infact i think many European players are already like that... and it shows... I must admit, in my 10 years on tl.net, I`ve never seen more stupid person than you.
How come?
On April 05 2013 04:45 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:38 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 04:33 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:30 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 04:18 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:16 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 04:14 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:59 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:55 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:46 Type|NarutO wrote:
[quote]
No, you don't need to be as good as a progamer in terms of mechanical skill to actually be good at understanding the game.
Some one who is not actively training will at best be able to follow the metagame and recognize the timings from a observer point of view... that's nothing special/useful. You will need to get ahead of the curve and estimate timings/strats with limited information if you want to separate yourself from the other ''top'' players. What kind of understanding can you bring to the table if it comes to the pro scene? Lots of players gain insight from watching the games and understanding the timings, because they don't have the problems you have as a player, which is incomplete information. They can immediately tell during or after a game how the timings will work out, where you could have improved or how to create timings. Only because you are mechanically not fit doesn't mean you cannot create strategy. I'll never be as good as Korean pros, yet I can discuss strategy with my friends among the German / European pros, because I understand strategies and their problems as well as the timing windows, doesn't mean I'm mechanically capable of playing them or executing them. It's an illusion, you only think you can. There are so much variables that new game specific timings occur which you as non pro player won't recognize. Players like mvp are CONSTANTLY re adjusting and re evaluating the situation in game. Not to speak of having to deal with ''new'' strats in tournaments like GSL were people prepare specifically for one opponent. Either way, bored of this discussion. I think I can? I know I can and for what reason? Because the pros do agree with me on my opinion. It doesn't matter if you disagree and are bored with that discussion. It also doesn't matter because you cannot provide anything to counterproof that coaches are actually useful to players. PS: Most coaches were progamers to begin with. I keep asking him that question, but he keeps ignoring it. He knows he wrong, but just doesn't want to respond to the points that every professional in the industry and the results of numerous pro-leagues disagree with him. Neither of you brought forward any proper argument against what i was saying... I said a coach is not needed if you got self discipline and help/coach each other... MVP and Nestea commenting on each other their game and point out holes or asking what they have problems against etc is so much more valuable than some guy with a tight schedule... And this of course also works on a lower level with European/American pros... infact i think many European players are already like that... and it shows... So why does Flash have a coach? Or Life? Why did Team Liquid hire one? Why do all the pro-league teams have coaches? Are you saying these players are doing it wrong? We don't need to prove anything. The entire industry uses coaches and you are saying they are bad. Prove why. I don't say they are bad... i say they are not needed and not having one should not be used as an excuse. As for the actual training... yes actual players that want to make each other better like the MVP/Nestea example i gave (could of used Flash with whoever if it makes you happy?) is indeed were it's at... and not with some ''professional coach''. But try to give an actual argument other than so and so has a coach? All of the Korean scene uses coaches and they are the best in the world. If you get a group of driven players together and they practice and you take another group of equal skill and drive, but give them a professional coach, the side with the coach does better. It is fact, plain and simple. Players do better with coaches and support. A group of driven players can only get so good until a professional coach gets involved. It works in all professional sports and it works in SC2. That is my argument and you saying it is not enough does not make it less of a fact. The best players in the world work with the best coaches and win because of it.
This is not a sport... it's a relative new video game... and my point is that pro players helping each other out is far more valuable than a coach... of course a team can hire one so that no one starts slacking... but a team manager can do that as well.
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On April 05 2013 04:44 StrifeIsBack wrote:
@naruto
and how many foreigner teams do you see that happening? O.o very very few foreign teams have team houses, and the sort setup. The only NA team that has a team house setup is EG and they are obviously the best NA team.
That's my point we need to grow the foreign scene so that we can attain the things that the korean scene has so that one day the foreign scene can be/will be on par with that of the koreans, and for once foreigners can dominate.
Even more so the up and coming players don't have teams, and can't sustain themselves to playing SC2 for as long as the pros do. Without up and coming players there is no youth to foster, and raise, and educate. Hence no new names.
Why do you think it's so hard for amateur foreign teams to be established, and noticed? No sponsors. Nothing to gain for the player. That's why esports in general is just so damn hard to break into, and continue playing at a pace, and level that is needed for tournament play because we have no infastructure like all of the korean teamhouses.
I never did disagree with building up the scene. I simply disagree with banning based on origin / nationality.
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On April 05 2013 04:47 Type|NarutO wrote:
I never did disagree with building up the scene. I simply disagree with banning based on origin / nationality.
Then how do you propose we grow the foreign scene while still allowing koreans to walk over the globe dominating?
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On April 05 2013 04:45 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:36 mdb wrote:On April 05 2013 04:30 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 04:18 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:16 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 04:14 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:59 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:55 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:46 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:28 Technique wrote:
[quote]
A coach can't have a proper observation of your game unless he's as high a level as you are... which like i said before, players can help each other with such ''coaching''. The offline tournament stress should be gone after a few tournaments as well.
And didn't i mention that you can't compare this to old sports? For obvious reasons.
No, you don't need to be as good as a progamer in terms of mechanical skill to actually be good at understanding the game. Some one who is not actively training will at best be able to follow the metagame and recognize the timings from a observer point of view... that's nothing special/useful. You will need to get ahead of the curve and estimate timings/strats with limited information if you want to separate yourself from the other ''top'' players. What kind of understanding can you bring to the table if it comes to the pro scene? Lots of players gain insight from watching the games and understanding the timings, because they don't have the problems you have as a player, which is incomplete information. They can immediately tell during or after a game how the timings will work out, where you could have improved or how to create timings. Only because you are mechanically not fit doesn't mean you cannot create strategy. I'll never be as good as Korean pros, yet I can discuss strategy with my friends among the German / European pros, because I understand strategies and their problems as well as the timing windows, doesn't mean I'm mechanically capable of playing them or executing them. It's an illusion, you only think you can. There are so much variables that new game specific timings occur which you as non pro player won't recognize. Players like mvp are CONSTANTLY re adjusting and re evaluating the situation in game. Not to speak of having to deal with ''new'' strats in tournaments like GSL were people prepare specifically for one opponent. Either way, bored of this discussion. I think I can? I know I can and for what reason? Because the pros do agree with me on my opinion. It doesn't matter if you disagree and are bored with that discussion. It also doesn't matter because you cannot provide anything to counterproof that coaches are actually useful to players. PS: Most coaches were progamers to begin with. I keep asking him that question, but he keeps ignoring it. He knows he wrong, but just doesn't want to respond to the points that every professional in the industry and the results of numerous pro-leagues disagree with him. Neither of you brought forward any proper argument against what i was saying... I said a coach is not needed if you got self discipline and help/coach each other... MVP and Nestea commenting on each other their game and point out holes or asking what they have problems against etc is so much more valuable than some guy with a tight schedule... And this of course also works on a lower level with European/American pros... infact i think many European players are already like that... and it shows... I must admit, in my 10 years on tl.net, I`ve never seen more stupid person than you. How come? Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:45 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:38 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 04:33 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:30 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 04:18 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:16 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 04:14 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:59 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:55 Technique wrote:
[quote]
Some one who is not actively training will at best be able to follow the metagame and recognize the timings from a observer point of view... that's nothing special/useful.
You will need to get ahead of the curve and estimate timings/strats with limited information if you want to separate yourself from the other ''top'' players. What kind of understanding can you bring to the table if it comes to the pro scene? Lots of players gain insight from watching the games and understanding the timings, because they don't have the problems you have as a player, which is incomplete information. They can immediately tell during or after a game how the timings will work out, where you could have improved or how to create timings. Only because you are mechanically not fit doesn't mean you cannot create strategy. I'll never be as good as Korean pros, yet I can discuss strategy with my friends among the German / European pros, because I understand strategies and their problems as well as the timing windows, doesn't mean I'm mechanically capable of playing them or executing them. It's an illusion, you only think you can. There are so much variables that new game specific timings occur which you as non pro player won't recognize. Players like mvp are CONSTANTLY re adjusting and re evaluating the situation in game. Not to speak of having to deal with ''new'' strats in tournaments like GSL were people prepare specifically for one opponent. Either way, bored of this discussion. I think I can? I know I can and for what reason? Because the pros do agree with me on my opinion. It doesn't matter if you disagree and are bored with that discussion. It also doesn't matter because you cannot provide anything to counterproof that coaches are actually useful to players. PS: Most coaches were progamers to begin with. I keep asking him that question, but he keeps ignoring it. He knows he wrong, but just doesn't want to respond to the points that every professional in the industry and the results of numerous pro-leagues disagree with him. Neither of you brought forward any proper argument against what i was saying... I said a coach is not needed if you got self discipline and help/coach each other... MVP and Nestea commenting on each other their game and point out holes or asking what they have problems against etc is so much more valuable than some guy with a tight schedule... And this of course also works on a lower level with European/American pros... infact i think many European players are already like that... and it shows... So why does Flash have a coach? Or Life? Why did Team Liquid hire one? Why do all the pro-league teams have coaches? Are you saying these players are doing it wrong? We don't need to prove anything. The entire industry uses coaches and you are saying they are bad. Prove why. I don't say they are bad... i say they are not needed and not having one should not be used as an excuse. As for the actual training... yes actual players that want to make each other better like the MVP/Nestea example i gave (could of used Flash with whoever if it makes you happy?) is indeed were it's at... and not with some ''professional coach''. But try to give an actual argument other than so and so has a coach? All of the Korean scene uses coaches and they are the best in the world. If you get a group of driven players together and they practice and you take another group of equal skill and drive, but give them a professional coach, the side with the coach does better. It is fact, plain and simple. Players do better with coaches and support. A group of driven players can only get so good until a professional coach gets involved. It works in all professional sports and it works in SC2. That is my argument and you saying it is not enough does not make it less of a fact. The best players in the world work with the best coaches and win because of it. This is not a sport... it's a relative new video game... and my point is that pro players helping each other out is far more valuable than a coach... of course a team can hire one so that no one starts slacking... but a team manager can do that as well.
You do know that the Korean scene has been around for 10 years, right?
Also, the reason he said you were dumb is that you are claiming that a group of really good players could get to together, practice really really hard, and then win the GSL against Flash, Parting and Life. That is like a bunch of guys getting together and playing a lot of golf and then winning the Masters against Tiger Woods.
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On April 05 2013 04:39 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:32 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 04:14 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 04:07 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:23 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 02:20 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:12 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:
[quote]
"I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea"
Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid.
"when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits,"
you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts.
Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better. Your proof is two boX? He lost to F91 and NonY. F91 being one of the very best Zergs at that time also taking games off of NaDa and NonY being an execptional player as well winning close by 3-2 ... not even taking the games into account. I can still remember his cancelled cc into gg. Your arguments are not just weak, but barely there. ya, after ad hominem, you decide to use strawman fallacy, labeling my evidence as weak does not take away the fact these evidence supports my argument, korean practice environment, and hard working that was idra did not respect the game, did not respect his opponent, did not have the skill to beat 2 people who did not practice nearly as hard as he did nor did those 2 person grind it out in korea as he did. tell me what do you think talent is in the game of sc2? Were you involved into Starcraft Broodwar? Because it sure does seem like you were not. NonY was an expectional player who did practice on iccup against mostly Koreans and tried to smooth out his builds as much as possible. You could always tell by the build order and placement who was playing. F91 was one of the chinese pros that were very similar to the Korean scene actually. F91, Legend ... if I remember correctly they even went to Korea for a short period of time and they sure did practice just as much as the Koreans. Also NonY was actually one of the very few persons IdrA did respect, resulting in him gg'ing out of every game, but it seems like you will not back off your point even if proven wrong. you proved what wrong? I have both nony and Idra in my team, we ended up needing to kick idra out for smurfing in a clan match, F91 was not in korea, and he wasn't consider to be on part with any big name korean. the whole reason i bought those these 2 boX is to support my argument that korean practice environment is not the key factor to produce results. You have said nothing to disprove that argument. By saying F91 and nony was respectable argument does not take away the fact that they both beat idra without using the korean practice environment. This is evidence for "practice environment is not the key factor to better result" If you want to disprove me, you would have to put down your own evidences such as a foreigner being in korean practice environment have produce consistent results against the koreans. (hell idra wasn't even fighting koreans for those 2 best of X and he still got his ass kicked) and then I gave you even more evidence about stephano did not need the korean practice environment to produce consistent results against the koreans. against this also support my argument that which is " practice environment is not the key factor to better result , i am not saying it would not help, but without talent no amount of practice can make you on part with the truly talented. You make tons of fallacies and I even point it out to you, yet you still say you proven me wrong? Statistic minority doesn't matter in overall statistics. Thats just how it is. Because IdrA doesn't put up amazing results (note: he did put up results) is not reflection of Korean training. Besides that Korean practice and especially Koreans do benefit from not having a language barrier. F91 and the chinese training was - in fact - really similar to Korean practice . Also if you cannot beat an argument of me - you simply ignore it. Thats a good way to win an argument against someone who will fall for it. I'll wait for you to actually counter my argument with facts. I did mention, that you have the proof of superior Korean practice all the time due to Koreans domenating non Koreans. You say its talent, I ask you; is every Korean talented? I ask you to go and see for example rets interview about Korea and how he didn't like it, yet it did improve his play a ton. Even if you argue that Korean training is not key, you cannot deny (at least) the fact that its superior and does - in fact - deliver results. not sure what you are talking about when you said I ignored you, there are too many ppl i replied to i might have not notice it, i am not denying the korean training is superior and it would deliver results. because all the koreans achievement are clear evidence for that but it still has nothing to do with my argument. What i am saying is that the korean training will not help if you don't process the talent to get those results in the first place, there are tons of koreans who practice in the korean training and sucks ass and they get weed out and you never heard of them. Have you consider that fact? Do you know about this old tournament Kespa used to run to spot new prospects? it's call the courage tournament, and you need to win it to get a pro licence, and there are ton of koreans attending that every time, and 99% of them fail and fail and fail, only 1 succeed. There were ton of 500apm monsters that are faster than nada back in the days, but they can't even get out of courage. Idra didn't win a courage tournament, ret didn't win it, even nony as close as he came within one game of winning it on his first try, he still didn't win it. I hope you can understand what i'm trying to tell you, whatever you are seeing right at in the kroean scene, they are the best of the best in the pool that include many many other less talented koreans. all ones who did not have talents already got weeded out. If you swap all the foreigners of now days with all the kespa players and have them train in the kespa team while the kespa players stay home and practice for themselves online, the kespa players would still dominate. Thats the first post of you I can agree with and thats the only point I never argued. You made it sound like Koreans are naturally talented / better than foreigners whereas we already said that they are just good at 1) finding players 2) raising players We all know that you don't enter a Korean progaming house and magically leave it as Starcraft god, but their training and superior environment allows for every player to improve. Ofcourse not everyone can be a Flash or a Life, ofcourse there are people more capable of understand and / or playing the game, but that doesn't mean that what we stated (Korean training is superior and does improve you over time in a lot higher fashion than any other training does) is wrong. It also is completely correct, that to reach the highest level of competition you NEED to play in Korea. We all saw Stephano taking games off of Koreans, but that was first of all a small sample size and secondly he was not always facing the best of the best. Ofcourse he took down Code - S calibers and some of the best players, but thats one exceptional player from thousands, so this should not be taken into consideration if you speak of statistically relevant things. Yes I do know about courage, but you didn't have to win it to get your progamer licence ;-)! Flash for example didn't win his courage in the first place, still got his licence^^.
glad you agree, i'm not saying it's worthless for foreigners to play in korea, they will get better, that system will get the best out of them, but that's where it ends. the best out of them will not be good enough to get the results we all hope for.
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On April 05 2013 04:53 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:39 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 04:32 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 04:14 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 04:07 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:23 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 02:20 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:12 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:
[quote]
Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact.
IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better. Your proof is two boX? He lost to F91 and NonY. F91 being one of the very best Zergs at that time also taking games off of NaDa and NonY being an execptional player as well winning close by 3-2 ... not even taking the games into account. I can still remember his cancelled cc into gg. Your arguments are not just weak, but barely there. ya, after ad hominem, you decide to use strawman fallacy, labeling my evidence as weak does not take away the fact these evidence supports my argument, korean practice environment, and hard working that was idra did not respect the game, did not respect his opponent, did not have the skill to beat 2 people who did not practice nearly as hard as he did nor did those 2 person grind it out in korea as he did. tell me what do you think talent is in the game of sc2? Were you involved into Starcraft Broodwar? Because it sure does seem like you were not. NonY was an expectional player who did practice on iccup against mostly Koreans and tried to smooth out his builds as much as possible. You could always tell by the build order and placement who was playing. F91 was one of the chinese pros that were very similar to the Korean scene actually. F91, Legend ... if I remember correctly they even went to Korea for a short period of time and they sure did practice just as much as the Koreans. Also NonY was actually one of the very few persons IdrA did respect, resulting in him gg'ing out of every game, but it seems like you will not back off your point even if proven wrong. you proved what wrong? I have both nony and Idra in my team, we ended up needing to kick idra out for smurfing in a clan match, F91 was not in korea, and he wasn't consider to be on part with any big name korean. the whole reason i bought those these 2 boX is to support my argument that korean practice environment is not the key factor to produce results. You have said nothing to disprove that argument. By saying F91 and nony was respectable argument does not take away the fact that they both beat idra without using the korean practice environment. This is evidence for "practice environment is not the key factor to better result" If you want to disprove me, you would have to put down your own evidences such as a foreigner being in korean practice environment have produce consistent results against the koreans. (hell idra wasn't even fighting koreans for those 2 best of X and he still got his ass kicked) and then I gave you even more evidence about stephano did not need the korean practice environment to produce consistent results against the koreans. against this also support my argument that which is " practice environment is not the key factor to better result , i am not saying it would not help, but without talent no amount of practice can make you on part with the truly talented. You make tons of fallacies and I even point it out to you, yet you still say you proven me wrong? Statistic minority doesn't matter in overall statistics. Thats just how it is. Because IdrA doesn't put up amazing results (note: he did put up results) is not reflection of Korean training. Besides that Korean practice and especially Koreans do benefit from not having a language barrier. F91 and the chinese training was - in fact - really similar to Korean practice . Also if you cannot beat an argument of me - you simply ignore it. Thats a good way to win an argument against someone who will fall for it. I'll wait for you to actually counter my argument with facts. I did mention, that you have the proof of superior Korean practice all the time due to Koreans domenating non Koreans. You say its talent, I ask you; is every Korean talented? I ask you to go and see for example rets interview about Korea and how he didn't like it, yet it did improve his play a ton. Even if you argue that Korean training is not key, you cannot deny (at least) the fact that its superior and does - in fact - deliver results. not sure what you are talking about when you said I ignored you, there are too many ppl i replied to i might have not notice it, i am not denying the korean training is superior and it would deliver results. because all the koreans achievement are clear evidence for that but it still has nothing to do with my argument. What i am saying is that the korean training will not help if you don't process the talent to get those results in the first place, there are tons of koreans who practice in the korean training and sucks ass and they get weed out and you never heard of them. Have you consider that fact? Do you know about this old tournament Kespa used to run to spot new prospects? it's call the courage tournament, and you need to win it to get a pro licence, and there are ton of koreans attending that every time, and 99% of them fail and fail and fail, only 1 succeed. There were ton of 500apm monsters that are faster than nada back in the days, but they can't even get out of courage. Idra didn't win a courage tournament, ret didn't win it, even nony as close as he came within one game of winning it on his first try, he still didn't win it. I hope you can understand what i'm trying to tell you, whatever you are seeing right at in the kroean scene, they are the best of the best in the pool that include many many other less talented koreans. all ones who did not have talents already got weeded out. If you swap all the foreigners of now days with all the kespa players and have them train in the kespa team while the kespa players stay home and practice for themselves online, the kespa players would still dominate. Thats the first post of you I can agree with and thats the only point I never argued. You made it sound like Koreans are naturally talented / better than foreigners whereas we already said that they are just good at 1) finding players 2) raising players We all know that you don't enter a Korean progaming house and magically leave it as Starcraft god, but their training and superior environment allows for every player to improve. Ofcourse not everyone can be a Flash or a Life, ofcourse there are people more capable of understand and / or playing the game, but that doesn't mean that what we stated (Korean training is superior and does improve you over time in a lot higher fashion than any other training does) is wrong. It also is completely correct, that to reach the highest level of competition you NEED to play in Korea. We all saw Stephano taking games off of Koreans, but that was first of all a small sample size and secondly he was not always facing the best of the best. Ofcourse he took down Code - S calibers and some of the best players, but thats one exceptional player from thousands, so this should not be taken into consideration if you speak of statistically relevant things. Yes I do know about courage, but you didn't have to win it to get your progamer licence ;-)! Flash for example didn't win his courage in the first place, still got his licence^^. glad you agree, i'm not saying it's worthless for foreigners to play in korea, they will get better, that system will get the best out of them, but that's where it ends. the best out of them will not be good enough to get the results we all hope for.
A korean enviroment is the best for koreans. I doubt i as a german would improve more in a korean enviroment then i would in a caukasian enviroment.
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On April 05 2013 04:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:45 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 04:36 mdb wrote:On April 05 2013 04:30 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 04:18 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:16 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 04:14 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:59 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:55 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:46 Type|NarutO wrote:
[quote]
No, you don't need to be as good as a progamer in terms of mechanical skill to actually be good at understanding the game.
Some one who is not actively training will at best be able to follow the metagame and recognize the timings from a observer point of view... that's nothing special/useful. You will need to get ahead of the curve and estimate timings/strats with limited information if you want to separate yourself from the other ''top'' players. What kind of understanding can you bring to the table if it comes to the pro scene? Lots of players gain insight from watching the games and understanding the timings, because they don't have the problems you have as a player, which is incomplete information. They can immediately tell during or after a game how the timings will work out, where you could have improved or how to create timings. Only because you are mechanically not fit doesn't mean you cannot create strategy. I'll never be as good as Korean pros, yet I can discuss strategy with my friends among the German / European pros, because I understand strategies and their problems as well as the timing windows, doesn't mean I'm mechanically capable of playing them or executing them. It's an illusion, you only think you can. There are so much variables that new game specific timings occur which you as non pro player won't recognize. Players like mvp are CONSTANTLY re adjusting and re evaluating the situation in game. Not to speak of having to deal with ''new'' strats in tournaments like GSL were people prepare specifically for one opponent. Either way, bored of this discussion. I think I can? I know I can and for what reason? Because the pros do agree with me on my opinion. It doesn't matter if you disagree and are bored with that discussion. It also doesn't matter because you cannot provide anything to counterproof that coaches are actually useful to players. PS: Most coaches were progamers to begin with. I keep asking him that question, but he keeps ignoring it. He knows he wrong, but just doesn't want to respond to the points that every professional in the industry and the results of numerous pro-leagues disagree with him. Neither of you brought forward any proper argument against what i was saying... I said a coach is not needed if you got self discipline and help/coach each other... MVP and Nestea commenting on each other their game and point out holes or asking what they have problems against etc is so much more valuable than some guy with a tight schedule... And this of course also works on a lower level with European/American pros... infact i think many European players are already like that... and it shows... I must admit, in my 10 years on tl.net, I`ve never seen more stupid person than you. How come? On April 05 2013 04:45 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:38 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 04:33 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:30 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 04:18 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:16 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 04:14 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:59 Type|NarutO wrote:
[quote]
What kind of understanding can you bring to the table if it comes to the pro scene? Lots of players gain insight from watching the games and understanding the timings, because they don't have the problems you have as a player, which is incomplete information. They can immediately tell during or after a game how the timings will work out, where you could have improved or how to create timings.
Only because you are mechanically not fit doesn't mean you cannot create strategy. I'll never be as good as Korean pros, yet I can discuss strategy with my friends among the German / European pros, because I understand strategies and their problems as well as the timing windows, doesn't mean I'm mechanically capable of playing them or executing them.
It's an illusion, you only think you can. There are so much variables that new game specific timings occur which you as non pro player won't recognize. Players like mvp are CONSTANTLY re adjusting and re evaluating the situation in game. Not to speak of having to deal with ''new'' strats in tournaments like GSL were people prepare specifically for one opponent. Either way, bored of this discussion. I think I can? I know I can and for what reason? Because the pros do agree with me on my opinion. It doesn't matter if you disagree and are bored with that discussion. It also doesn't matter because you cannot provide anything to counterproof that coaches are actually useful to players. PS: Most coaches were progamers to begin with. I keep asking him that question, but he keeps ignoring it. He knows he wrong, but just doesn't want to respond to the points that every professional in the industry and the results of numerous pro-leagues disagree with him. Neither of you brought forward any proper argument against what i was saying... I said a coach is not needed if you got self discipline and help/coach each other... MVP and Nestea commenting on each other their game and point out holes or asking what they have problems against etc is so much more valuable than some guy with a tight schedule... And this of course also works on a lower level with European/American pros... infact i think many European players are already like that... and it shows... So why does Flash have a coach? Or Life? Why did Team Liquid hire one? Why do all the pro-league teams have coaches? Are you saying these players are doing it wrong? We don't need to prove anything. The entire industry uses coaches and you are saying they are bad. Prove why. I don't say they are bad... i say they are not needed and not having one should not be used as an excuse. As for the actual training... yes actual players that want to make each other better like the MVP/Nestea example i gave (could of used Flash with whoever if it makes you happy?) is indeed were it's at... and not with some ''professional coach''. But try to give an actual argument other than so and so has a coach? All of the Korean scene uses coaches and they are the best in the world. If you get a group of driven players together and they practice and you take another group of equal skill and drive, but give them a professional coach, the side with the coach does better. It is fact, plain and simple. Players do better with coaches and support. A group of driven players can only get so good until a professional coach gets involved. It works in all professional sports and it works in SC2. That is my argument and you saying it is not enough does not make it less of a fact. The best players in the world work with the best coaches and win because of it. This is not a sport... it's a relative new video game... and my point is that pro players helping each other out is far more valuable than a coach... of course a team can hire one so that no one starts slacking... but a team manager can do that as well. You do know that the Korean scene has been around for 10 years, right? Also, the reason he said you were dumb is that you are claiming that a group of really good players could get to together, practice really really hard, and then win the GSL against Flash, Parting and Life. That is like a bunch of guys getting together and playing a lot of golf and then winning the Masters against Tiger Woods.
Hence the word ''relative''... 10 years is nothing when you compare it to sports and what those coaches have to work with.
Not to speak of the fact that sc2 is a completely new game.
And you keep bringing up Flash, it's funny... you really believe he got so good due to a coach? Won't it be due to the quality training partners?...
I'm sure if there was no coach, but a team manager that it would not have made a difference.
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On April 05 2013 04:42 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:39 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 04:27 Plansix wrote:
I would argue they have a better system in place for finding the best players and then providing them with the support they need to become the best. This system is supported and funded by the largest companies in the country and also receives government support.
this is what I agree on, they have a better system in place for them to find better talents! the foreigners don't. never mind the support and the funding, if they can't find the best talents they can find in the first place they would not be dominating like this. Here is the history behind the talent searching in kespa, they had this one thing call courage tournament in bw days, all the current pros had to fought through this courage tournament to get a pro license. It's just as brutal as GSL code A qualifier, when a player wins courage, they get pick up by a team. and all those who doesn't win time after time, they get faded out and weeded out. What you see in kespa are the best of the best out of thousands of koreans who thinks they can make it to the big stage. That's the talents the rest of the world can not match, unless you are stephano. Your statement generally is right, but not completely true. By.Snow for example didn't win courage, but has a progamer licence, because teams can give it out. IdrA got a progamer licence as well without winning courage. Also Draco. Besides that, there was a foreigner (Assem) who won a courage tournament. Also Legionnaire
idra couldn't win his even if he try, superdaniel gave him one because he needed to trade idra to CJ. coaches of the kespa team have 2 license to give out each year, they usually give it to training partners in their own team house since they know their talents first hand. There were foreigner talents, elky for example managed to get osl 4th place of an OSL in the pool of players including nada and savior, iloveoovand stork. and nony would have won a courage if he stayed there longer.
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On April 05 2013 04:52 StrifeIsBack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:47 Type|NarutO wrote:
I never did disagree with building up the scene. I simply disagree with banning based on origin / nationality. Then how do you propose we grow the foreign scene while still allowing koreans to walk over the globe dominating?
stop subsidizing the travel costs (i.e., airfare, hotels, etc.). i imagine we will see less koreans if they are required to fund their own travel costs. of course, this will make foreign tournaments less exciting to many so it is probably not a good idea for event organizers.
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On April 05 2013 05:00 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:53 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:45 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 04:36 mdb wrote:On April 05 2013 04:30 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 04:18 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:16 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 04:14 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:59 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:55 Technique wrote:
[quote]
Some one who is not actively training will at best be able to follow the metagame and recognize the timings from a observer point of view... that's nothing special/useful.
You will need to get ahead of the curve and estimate timings/strats with limited information if you want to separate yourself from the other ''top'' players. What kind of understanding can you bring to the table if it comes to the pro scene? Lots of players gain insight from watching the games and understanding the timings, because they don't have the problems you have as a player, which is incomplete information. They can immediately tell during or after a game how the timings will work out, where you could have improved or how to create timings. Only because you are mechanically not fit doesn't mean you cannot create strategy. I'll never be as good as Korean pros, yet I can discuss strategy with my friends among the German / European pros, because I understand strategies and their problems as well as the timing windows, doesn't mean I'm mechanically capable of playing them or executing them. It's an illusion, you only think you can. There are so much variables that new game specific timings occur which you as non pro player won't recognize. Players like mvp are CONSTANTLY re adjusting and re evaluating the situation in game. Not to speak of having to deal with ''new'' strats in tournaments like GSL were people prepare specifically for one opponent. Either way, bored of this discussion. I think I can? I know I can and for what reason? Because the pros do agree with me on my opinion. It doesn't matter if you disagree and are bored with that discussion. It also doesn't matter because you cannot provide anything to counterproof that coaches are actually useful to players. PS: Most coaches were progamers to begin with. I keep asking him that question, but he keeps ignoring it. He knows he wrong, but just doesn't want to respond to the points that every professional in the industry and the results of numerous pro-leagues disagree with him. Neither of you brought forward any proper argument against what i was saying... I said a coach is not needed if you got self discipline and help/coach each other... MVP and Nestea commenting on each other their game and point out holes or asking what they have problems against etc is so much more valuable than some guy with a tight schedule... And this of course also works on a lower level with European/American pros... infact i think many European players are already like that... and it shows... I must admit, in my 10 years on tl.net, I`ve never seen more stupid person than you. How come? On April 05 2013 04:45 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:38 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 04:33 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:30 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 04:18 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:16 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 04:14 Technique wrote:
[quote]
It's an illusion, you only think you can.
There are so much variables that new game specific timings occur which you as non pro player won't recognize.
Players like mvp are CONSTANTLY re adjusting and re evaluating the situation in game.
Not to speak of having to deal with ''new'' strats in tournaments like GSL were people prepare specifically for one opponent.
Either way, bored of this discussion. I think I can? I know I can and for what reason? Because the pros do agree with me on my opinion. It doesn't matter if you disagree and are bored with that discussion. It also doesn't matter because you cannot provide anything to counterproof that coaches are actually useful to players. PS: Most coaches were progamers to begin with. I keep asking him that question, but he keeps ignoring it. He knows he wrong, but just doesn't want to respond to the points that every professional in the industry and the results of numerous pro-leagues disagree with him. Neither of you brought forward any proper argument against what i was saying... I said a coach is not needed if you got self discipline and help/coach each other... MVP and Nestea commenting on each other their game and point out holes or asking what they have problems against etc is so much more valuable than some guy with a tight schedule... And this of course also works on a lower level with European/American pros... infact i think many European players are already like that... and it shows... So why does Flash have a coach? Or Life? Why did Team Liquid hire one? Why do all the pro-league teams have coaches? Are you saying these players are doing it wrong? We don't need to prove anything. The entire industry uses coaches and you are saying they are bad. Prove why. I don't say they are bad... i say they are not needed and not having one should not be used as an excuse. As for the actual training... yes actual players that want to make each other better like the MVP/Nestea example i gave (could of used Flash with whoever if it makes you happy?) is indeed were it's at... and not with some ''professional coach''. But try to give an actual argument other than so and so has a coach? All of the Korean scene uses coaches and they are the best in the world. If you get a group of driven players together and they practice and you take another group of equal skill and drive, but give them a professional coach, the side with the coach does better. It is fact, plain and simple. Players do better with coaches and support. A group of driven players can only get so good until a professional coach gets involved. It works in all professional sports and it works in SC2. That is my argument and you saying it is not enough does not make it less of a fact. The best players in the world work with the best coaches and win because of it. This is not a sport... it's a relative new video game... and my point is that pro players helping each other out is far more valuable than a coach... of course a team can hire one so that no one starts slacking... but a team manager can do that as well. You do know that the Korean scene has been around for 10 years, right? Also, the reason he said you were dumb is that you are claiming that a group of really good players could get to together, practice really really hard, and then win the GSL against Flash, Parting and Life. That is like a bunch of guys getting together and playing a lot of golf and then winning the Masters against Tiger Woods. Hence the word ''relative''... 10 years is nothing when you compare it to sports and what those coaches have to work with. Not to speak of the fact that sc2 is a completely new game. And you keep bringing up Flash, it's funny... you really believe he got so good due to a coach? Won't it be due to the quality training partners?... I'm sure if there was no coach, but a team manager that it would not have made a difference.
And that sir, is where you are 100% incorrect. Flash is an amazing player, but he has only been made better by a coach managing his practice time and providing him with feed back on where to focus. The quality of his practice partners also matters, but the coaching in critical to how well he does.
Once again, high level professionals also agree with this, like Artosis, Liquid Naz'gul, including the most winning Kespa teams. Are you saying they are wrong and TL never should have hired Coach Park?
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On April 05 2013 05:05 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:52 StrifeIsBack wrote:On April 05 2013 04:47 Type|NarutO wrote:
I never did disagree with building up the scene. I simply disagree with banning based on origin / nationality. Then how do you propose we grow the foreign scene while still allowing koreans to walk over the globe dominating? stop subsidizing the travel costs (i.e., airfare, hotels, etc.). i imagine we will see less koreans if they are required to fund their own travel costs. of course, this will make foreign tournaments less exciting to many so it is probably not a good idea for event organizers.
It might not be. If the Koreans dominate every event, they run the risk of the scene just fading out and interest falling off over the years. I am not saying it would happen, but flying in all of code S to MLG might lose its luster after 3-4 events. I think leveling the playing field by making everyone pay their way would be better over all.
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On April 05 2013 03:55 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:46 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:28 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:21 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:19 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:15 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 03:01 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:40 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:34 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:31 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
If it were that easy, people would just do it. That is not the type of system that the Kespa teams have and they are doing the best right now. Kespa teams have coaches that schedule, review games and manage the players, the amount they practice and what they practice. There is a reason Coach Park has the most winning record of all the Kespa coaches and his teams do the best. They don't just mass practice, they practice better than other teams because he manages how they practice. Pretty sure people have done exactly what i said and became top players... Thing is however... Korea simply has MUCH more serious rts players... that's all there is to it. Flash and Life did not do that. Neither did Parting. They all had coaches, teams and groups around them managing them, helping them practice. These players did not become amazing just by grinding out games together. Its not about man hours and dedication, its about infrastructure. A coach can't do anything a group of dedicated players can't do for there selfs... Problem is players are streaming and laddering instead, which really is a time waste... Artosis and every professional in the industry disagrees with you and the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor that players do better with coaches. A group of passionate, dedicated players will not do as well as the same group with a professional coach. Coach Park is the best example, who lead every team he coached to a winning record and the play offs in Proleague. You also don't understand why NA teams stream, even on TL, who has korean players that stream. They don't do it for the money from streaming, but to provide numbers to their sponsors, who support the teams ability to travel to different events. Ok tell me one thing that coach can do that a dedicated player can't do on his own? It's all about self discipline. Those coaches got nothing to teach... this ain't some old sport like boxing/football etc... Also you think i don't understand they stream for money because i say it's a time waste? I was speaking from a point of view were players try to catch up to the Korean skill level... streaming and long ladder sessions can't be part of that. Mindset, mentality, stress handling, scheduling, offering a neutral observation of your game. Why do professional sport athletes have coaches? Because they do have insight. A coach can't have a proper observation of your game unless he's as high a level as you are... which like i said before, players can help each other with such ''coaching''. The offline tournament stress should be gone after a few tournaments as well. And didn't i mention that you can't compare this to old sports? For obvious reasons. No, you don't need to be as good as a progamer in terms of mechanical skill to actually be good at understanding the game. Some one who is not actively training will at best be able to follow the metagame and recognize the timings from a observer point of view... that's nothing special/useful. You will need to get ahead of the curve and estimate timings/strats with limited information if you want to separate yourself from the other ''top'' players.
actually that is extremely useful. It is those with deep insights that can see weakness in opponents build and create new ones specifically to counter
Anyhow, you're not going to find a friend or random pro that is willing to sit through a 20 minute game analyizing every detail of your plays to spot improvements, that is what coaches are being paid for. Hell, most players probably won't do it themselves and only jump through replays to see the important aspects. So many parts that can be improved are completely oblivious to the player and requires a well knowledged 3rd party to spot them.
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People tend to like "the underdog", plus foreigners have more personality then the average Korean. I personally don't care what ethnicity are doing the best, as long as we are able to see their personalities. People like MKP, and MMA were fun to root for and watch, most of the Korean's are too reserved though. It's just part of their culture, and their routine. My girlfriend is from Korea, and I'm constantly trying to get her to talk to more people, or try more things.
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I think the skill gap is mainly because of practice regimen/structure. If you watch a korean vs. foreigner match, the korean progamer usually wins with better mechanics and more precise timings. It's very rarely because the Korean outsmarts the foreigner. As for the foreigner, I can't think of the number of times I've seen someone try something that is conceptually sound, but the execution was just poor because of lackluster mechanics.
Mechanics and precise timings can only be honed with focused practice. There's no trick to it. A coach and team house can help with that because they won't let their players' focus split among many things like appeasing fans with non-serious streamed games and trying to help esports grow with silly non-competitive events like talks on theorycraft. The korean team house structure probably allows players to have that tunnel focus on just getting the mechanics down-pat and improving as a player, and not letting them worry about other shit like entertaining fans or the future of esports.
Also, as for streams, I'm still convinced there is no way for a player to be 100% focused on improving as a player while streaming to a large number of viewers. They may be tempted to entertain with ballsy/funny builds or waste time by reading through stream chat comments and responding. Also, psychologically the player may feel a bit self-conscious with what builds they experiment with or practice. With that mindset, it's difficult to try to focus in on your flaws because a player would always want to show his good side to his fans. So, a player who's streaming might be tempted to do builds or match-ups they're confident in to avoid flaming stream viewers.
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On April 05 2013 05:37 EpiK wrote:
I think the skill gap is mainly because of practice regimen/structure. If you watch a korean vs. foreigner match, the korean progamer usually wins with better mechanics and more precise timings. It's very rarely because the Korean outsmarts the foreigner. As for the foreigner, I can't think of the number of times I've seen someone try something that is conceptually sound, but the execution was just poor because of lackluster mechanics.
Mechanics and precise timings can be only be honed with focused practice. There's no trick to it. A coach and team house can help with that because they won't let their players focus split among many things like appeasing fans with non-serious streamed games and trying to help esports grow with silly non-competitive events and talks with theorycraft. The korean team house structure probably allows players to have that tunnel focus on just getting the mechanics down-pat and improving as a player, and not letting them worry about other shit like entertaining fans or the future of esports.
if you been reading the thread, you would know it's not as simple as practice regimen/structure, korea had been weeding out all the lesser talented korean players and gathered all the talented korean players for the past 10 years, you would see the gap closing when the foreigners have more talents of comparable level shows up. So far we have 1 and his name is stephano.
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On April 05 2013 05:37 EpiK wrote:
I think the skill gap is mainly because of practice regimen/structure. If you watch a korean vs. foreigner match, the korean progamer usually wins with better mechanics and more precise timings. It's very rarely because the Korean outsmarts the foreigner. As for the foreigner, I can't think of the number of times I've seen someone try something that is conceptually sound, but the execution was just poor because of lackluster mechanics.
Mechanics and precise timings can be only be honed with focused practice. There's no trick to it. A coach and team house can help with that because they won't let their players focus split among many things like appeasing fans with non-serious streamed games and trying to help esports grow with silly non-competitive events and talks with theorycraft. The korean team house structure probably allows players to have that tunnel focus on just getting the mechanics down-pat and improving as a player, and not letting them worry about other shit like entertaining fans or the future of esports.
You're spot on. If foreigners want to keep up, they've got to start focusing more on mechanics. That's all there is to it. StarCraft is not a game of "strategy...," it's a game of execution.
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On April 05 2013 06:02 Qwyn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 05:37 EpiK wrote:
I think the skill gap is mainly because of practice regimen/structure. If you watch a korean vs. foreigner match, the korean progamer usually wins with better mechanics and more precise timings. It's very rarely because the Korean outsmarts the foreigner. As for the foreigner, I can't think of the number of times I've seen someone try something that is conceptually sound, but the execution was just poor because of lackluster mechanics.
Mechanics and precise timings can be only be honed with focused practice. There's no trick to it. A coach and team house can help with that because they won't let their players focus split among many things like appeasing fans with non-serious streamed games and trying to help esports grow with silly non-competitive events and talks with theorycraft. The korean team house structure probably allows players to have that tunnel focus on just getting the mechanics down-pat and improving as a player, and not letting them worry about other shit like entertaining fans or the future of esports. You're spot on. If foreigners want to keep up, they've got to start focusing more on mechanics. That's all there is to it. StarCraft is not a game of "strategy...," it's a game of execution.
hmmm not many see it that way (i agree 9000%)...especially from NA players, and blizzard.
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On April 05 2013 05:57 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 05:37 EpiK wrote:
I think the skill gap is mainly because of practice regimen/structure. If you watch a korean vs. foreigner match, the korean progamer usually wins with better mechanics and more precise timings. It's very rarely because the Korean outsmarts the foreigner. As for the foreigner, I can't think of the number of times I've seen someone try something that is conceptually sound, but the execution was just poor because of lackluster mechanics.
Mechanics and precise timings can be only be honed with focused practice. There's no trick to it. A coach and team house can help with that because they won't let their players focus split among many things like appeasing fans with non-serious streamed games and trying to help esports grow with silly non-competitive events and talks with theorycraft. The korean team house structure probably allows players to have that tunnel focus on just getting the mechanics down-pat and improving as a player, and not letting them worry about other shit like entertaining fans or the future of esports. if you been reading the thread, you would know it's not as simple as practice regimen/structure, korea had been weeding out all the lesser talented korean players and gathered all the talented korean players for the past 10 years, you would see the gap closing when the foreigners have more talents of comparable level shows up. So far we have 1 and his name is stephano.
Isn´t that paradoxum? I mean as i understand you, you say "korea" gathered all talented players. "Korea" is/are a regime/structure?
Maybe i just don´t understand what you wanted to say. =(
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you can't train talents, you have to find them, you can train skills, but skill is capped by a player's talent. and of course, you might not realize this because you have a different understanding of what talent is in sc2.
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EPT
