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On April 05 2013 04:16 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:11 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On April 05 2013 04:08 StrifeIsBack wrote:On April 05 2013 03:26 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:25 StrifeIsBack wrote:On April 05 2013 03:18 Type|NarutO wrote:
No one is argueing that we need leagues in NA/EU. People are argueing about Korean participation should be allowed or not.
The thread is technically about why we prefer foreigners over koreans. Not either of the two things brought about in my quote or your quote. Yet in my previous post I go on to talk about why I prefer foreigners over koreans, and why koreans are bad for SC2 and esports as a whole. Bad for Starcraft 2 and eSports as a whole, you cannot be serious. Really you cannot. Truly can be serious. Read my post? League is far superior to SC2 due to the NA scene, and not having Koreans dominate foreigners 24/7 every tournament lol. Koreans are the best at LoL though. They might not play every tournament but they're still the best, so basically LoL operates the same system are Blizzard are putting in here. What you said was the Koreans are bad for Sc2, which is retarded. Just like saying Brazilians are bad for football, or black people are bad for Basketball. I see his point, though made poorly. He is saying that Brazil would be bad for football if their team game over to every event and crushed every other team. Having Koreans coming over to kick the crap out of all the foreign players is bad for growth, because there are no new foreign players entering the scene. You can't start everyone in grandmasters, some people need to be in masters or diamond.
I agree with that which is why I suggested the football mode where you have a domestic and international scene running concurrently where you get both the best vs the best and a chance to build your domestic scene, which is what Blizzard are going for here.
What that guy suggested though is that Sc2 would be better as an esport if Korea had never picked up the game. Which is ridiculous.
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On April 05 2013 03:29 fabiano wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:26 antelope591 wrote:
I dont think having foreigner only tourneys is such a bad idea. My only thing is if ur gonna make it foreigner only then do it all the way. I hate when tourneys go the WCS way and artificially inflate foreigner numbers by giving out unbalanced numbers of slots, making it tough for koreans to attend, etc. It creates situations with having shitty unbalanced games which are bad for everybody. Foreigner only tourneys can be succesful. Just look ag TSL in the last years of BW. They always had great viewership even tho the skill level was obv miles below top koreans. But now picture flash or JD attending one of those TSL's and who would care to watch it anymore except to see how badly foreigners get stomped? This is the type of situations tourneys create by trying to find this artificially created middle ground. Make it all or nothing I don't know how different the SC2 community is from the BW community, but if you had JD or Flash playing in TSL2 for example the viewership would increase ten fold.
It would but strictly for name recognition not for game related reasons. They dont have the same kind of name recognition in sc2 because top koreans at foreign tourneys arent a rare thing
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On April 05 2013 04:19 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:37 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:28 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:13 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:11 Shiori wrote:On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:
[quote]
Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea.
Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism.
"I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts. Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better. So Koreans are genetically superior...? That's nonsense. Talent is a buzzword employed by people who don't have an argument to gloss over the hard work and drive of people more motivated than themselves. Lmao at you if you think MVP used some inaccessible magic to win GSLs. didn't say that, again, what you consider to be talent could be different from what I consider to be talent, tell me what you think talent is in sc2? maybe if you figure out what it is you would agree with me. You heavily implied it. All of the arguments based around racism and genetic advantage center around environment vs nature. By saying that Korean players will beat all foreign players if both are placed in the same environment, you are making the classic argument that all racist have made for years. If you don't want to be accused of being racist, do not make arguments in this fashion. it never even cross my mind for a second until you mention it, the fact that you mention it reflects on what you are thinking, not what I am thinking. if anything you should look at yourself on why you would be looking for racism when nothing is even remotely pointing toward that direction. and my argument is supported by facts, idra had the korean environment and he does not produce any korean result, neighter did huk, nor naniwa, nor sase. and then on the other hand, we have stephano who did not have the korean environment yet he won ton of tournaments vs the koreans. these are Facts. talent is the different between stephano and idra. It matters little what I am thinking, but what your statements say to the general public. If you make an argument that is used by racist, don't be shocked if bring that up. If you aren't aware that the argument was used by racist, you should place the burden on the other side for thinking the argument was racist. You are responsible for conveying your own thoughts and making sure we don't misread them. What is the point of your argument? Stephano is a talented player and does well, we know that. The other players you list are not doing amazing, but so are an equal number of Korean players in Korea. We know that some players are more talented than others, that is given fact. Is your argument that the current set of foreign players are not as talented as Koreans or that all foreign players are not talented as Koreans? the point i'm trying to make is that "the Korean practice environment is not the key factor on getting results" I put down 3 evidences for my argument. 1) idra practice in the korean practice environment for years, and got own by f91 who did not practice in korean practice environment. 2) idra got own by nony who came out of retirement for 2 weeks after years of being inactive. 3) stephano did not need the korean practice environment to have good results against the koreans for the past few years. and finally after these insurmountable evidences, I conclude that the korean practice environment and the korean culture is not why the koreans are winning everything. I contribute all the korean results to their individual hard work, and their talent, I will not take away their glory by generalizing all koreans are good because of they have unfair advantage in better environment. do you have a bone to pick with this faultless argument?
Yes we do. Its you picking out a minorty. Besides that F91 and the chinese progaming community was very similar to the Korean community so you would have to count him out already. As I stated before, you can name exactly one individual who got better in Korea, yet didn't dominate the foreign scene. I can name ~20 Koreans who are all not as known as big names in NA / EU and still are better.
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your argments are all invalid.
![[image loading]](http://agbeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/puppies.jpg)
User was warned for this post
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On April 05 2013 04:19 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:37 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:28 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:13 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:11 Shiori wrote:On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:
[quote]
Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea.
Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism.
"I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts. Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better. So Koreans are genetically superior...? That's nonsense. Talent is a buzzword employed by people who don't have an argument to gloss over the hard work and drive of people more motivated than themselves. Lmao at you if you think MVP used some inaccessible magic to win GSLs. didn't say that, again, what you consider to be talent could be different from what I consider to be talent, tell me what you think talent is in sc2? maybe if you figure out what it is you would agree with me. You heavily implied it. All of the arguments based around racism and genetic advantage center around environment vs nature. By saying that Korean players will beat all foreign players if both are placed in the same environment, you are making the classic argument that all racist have made for years. If you don't want to be accused of being racist, do not make arguments in this fashion. it never even cross my mind for a second until you mention it, the fact that you mention it reflects on what you are thinking, not what I am thinking. if anything you should look at yourself on why you would be looking for racism when nothing is even remotely pointing toward that direction. and my argument is supported by facts, idra had the korean environment and he does not produce any korean result, neighter did huk, nor naniwa, nor sase. and then on the other hand, we have stephano who did not have the korean environment yet he won ton of tournaments vs the koreans. these are Facts. talent is the different between stephano and idra. It matters little what I am thinking, but what your statements say to the general public. If you make an argument that is used by racist, don't be shocked if bring that up. If you aren't aware that the argument was used by racist, you should place the burden on the other side for thinking the argument was racist. You are responsible for conveying your own thoughts and making sure we don't misread them. What is the point of your argument? Stephano is a talented player and does well, we know that. The other players you list are not doing amazing, but so are an equal number of Korean players in Korea. We know that some players are more talented than others, that is given fact. Is your argument that the current set of foreign players are not as talented as Koreans or that all foreign players are not talented as Koreans? the point i'm trying to make is that "the Korean practice environment is not the key factor on getting results" I put down 3 evidences for my argument. 1) idra practice in the korean practice environment for years, and got own by f91 who did not practice in korean practice environment. 2) idra got own by nony who came out of retirement for 2 weeks after years of being inactive. 3) stephano did not need the korean practice environment to have good results against the koreans for the past few years. and finally after these insurmountable evidences, I conclude that the korean practice environment and the korean culture is not why the koreans are winning everything. I contribute all the korean results to their individual hard work, and their talent, I will not take away their glory by generalizing all koreans are good because of they have unfair advantage in better environment. do you have a bone to pick with this faultless argument?
My biggest bone of contention is that it's self evidently stupid.
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Tbh, the mass Zerg domination did hurt the scene much more than "Koreans beating up foreigners" and that was definitely Blizzard's fault for not reacting quickly enough. Foreigners could actually beat good Korean players back then, providing they played Zerg and the Korean didn't.
I wasn't watching big events' finals anymore at the end of WoL, because it was invariably ZvZ, not because of KRvsKR.
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On April 05 2013 04:24 ZenithM wrote:
Tbh, the mass Zerg domination did hurt the scene much more than "Koreans beating up foreigners" and that was definitely Blizzard's fault for not reacting quickly enough. Foreigners could actually beat good Korean players back then, providing they played Zerg and the Korean didn't.
I wasn't watching big events' finals anymore at the end of WoL, because it was invariably ZvZ, not because of KRvsKR.
So true. Infestor/BL and GomTvT were the worst things to happen to Sc2 as an esport in WOL.
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On April 05 2013 04:19 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:37 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:28 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:13 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:11 Shiori wrote:On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:
[quote]
Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea.
Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism.
"I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts. Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better. So Koreans are genetically superior...? That's nonsense. Talent is a buzzword employed by people who don't have an argument to gloss over the hard work and drive of people more motivated than themselves. Lmao at you if you think MVP used some inaccessible magic to win GSLs. didn't say that, again, what you consider to be talent could be different from what I consider to be talent, tell me what you think talent is in sc2? maybe if you figure out what it is you would agree with me. You heavily implied it. All of the arguments based around racism and genetic advantage center around environment vs nature. By saying that Korean players will beat all foreign players if both are placed in the same environment, you are making the classic argument that all racist have made for years. If you don't want to be accused of being racist, do not make arguments in this fashion. it never even cross my mind for a second until you mention it, the fact that you mention it reflects on what you are thinking, not what I am thinking. if anything you should look at yourself on why you would be looking for racism when nothing is even remotely pointing toward that direction. and my argument is supported by facts, idra had the korean environment and he does not produce any korean result, neighter did huk, nor naniwa, nor sase. and then on the other hand, we have stephano who did not have the korean environment yet he won ton of tournaments vs the koreans. these are Facts. talent is the different between stephano and idra. It matters little what I am thinking, but what your statements say to the general public. If you make an argument that is used by racist, don't be shocked if bring that up. If you aren't aware that the argument was used by racist, you should place the burden on the other side for thinking the argument was racist. You are responsible for conveying your own thoughts and making sure we don't misread them. What is the point of your argument? Stephano is a talented player and does well, we know that. The other players you list are not doing amazing, but so are an equal number of Korean players in Korea. We know that some players are more talented than others, that is given fact. Is your argument that the current set of foreign players are not as talented as Koreans or that all foreign players are not talented as Koreans? the point i'm trying to make is that "the Korean practice environment is not the key factor on getting results" I put down 3 evidences for my argument. 1) idra practice in the korean practice environment for years, and got own by f91 who did not practice in korean practice environment. 2) idra got own by nony who came out of retirement for 2 weeks after years of being inactive. 3) stephano did not need the korean practice environment to have good results against the koreans for the past few years. and finally after these insurmountable evidences, I conclude that the korean practice environment and the korean culture is not why the koreans are winning everything. I contribute all the korean results to their individual hard work, and their talent, I will not take away their glory by generalizing all koreans are good because of they have unfair advantage in better environment. do you have a bone to pick with this faultless argument?
I think it is overly simplistic, relies on a small sample set and cherry picks its arguments from SC2 and BW. It ignores regional differences, like that all progaming in Korea is based in a single city and their highest level teams are funded by the most largest companies in all of Korea.
If your theory were correct, Koreans would win all sports they took place in and that is not the case. I would argue they have a better system in place for finding the best players and then providing them with the support they need to become the best. This system is supported and funded by the largest companies in the country and also receives government support.
The simple fact is that if you take this argument outside of SC2, is collapse under the evidence that Korean do not win everything. Koreans don't have more talented, harder working players, they are just better at finding them.
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On April 05 2013 04:18 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:16 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 04:14 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:59 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:55 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:46 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:28 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:21 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:19 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:15 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Artosis and every professional in the industry disagrees with you and the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor that players do better with coaches. A group of passionate, dedicated players will not do as well as the same group with a professional coach. Coach Park is the best example, who lead every team he coached to a winning record and the play offs in Proleague.
You also don't understand why NA teams stream, even on TL, who has korean players that stream. They don't do it for the money from streaming, but to provide numbers to their sponsors, who support the teams ability to travel to different events.
Ok tell me one thing that coach can do that a dedicated player can't do on his own? It's all about self discipline. Those coaches got nothing to teach... this ain't some old sport like boxing/football etc... Also you think i don't understand they stream for money because i say it's a time waste? I was speaking from a point of view were players try to catch up to the Korean skill level... streaming and long ladder sessions can't be part of that. Mindset, mentality, stress handling, scheduling, offering a neutral observation of your game. Why do professional sport athletes have coaches? Because they do have insight. A coach can't have a proper observation of your game unless he's as high a level as you are... which like i said before, players can help each other with such ''coaching''. The offline tournament stress should be gone after a few tournaments as well. And didn't i mention that you can't compare this to old sports? For obvious reasons. No, you don't need to be as good as a progamer in terms of mechanical skill to actually be good at understanding the game. Some one who is not actively training will at best be able to follow the metagame and recognize the timings from a observer point of view... that's nothing special/useful. You will need to get ahead of the curve and estimate timings/strats with limited information if you want to separate yourself from the other ''top'' players. What kind of understanding can you bring to the table if it comes to the pro scene? Lots of players gain insight from watching the games and understanding the timings, because they don't have the problems you have as a player, which is incomplete information. They can immediately tell during or after a game how the timings will work out, where you could have improved or how to create timings. Only because you are mechanically not fit doesn't mean you cannot create strategy. I'll never be as good as Korean pros, yet I can discuss strategy with my friends among the German / European pros, because I understand strategies and their problems as well as the timing windows, doesn't mean I'm mechanically capable of playing them or executing them. It's an illusion, you only think you can. There are so much variables that new game specific timings occur which you as non pro player won't recognize. Players like mvp are CONSTANTLY re adjusting and re evaluating the situation in game. Not to speak of having to deal with ''new'' strats in tournaments like GSL were people prepare specifically for one opponent. Either way, bored of this discussion. I think I can? I know I can and for what reason? Because the pros do agree with me on my opinion. It doesn't matter if you disagree and are bored with that discussion. It also doesn't matter because you cannot provide anything to counterproof that coaches are actually useful to players. PS: Most coaches were progamers to begin with. I keep asking him that question, but he keeps ignoring it. He knows he wrong, but just doesn't want to respond to the points that every professional in the industry and the results of numerous pro-leagues disagree with him.
Neither of you brought forward any proper argument against what i was saying...
I said a coach is not needed if you got self discipline and help/coach each other...
MVP and Nestea commenting on each other their game and point out holes or asking what they have problems against etc is so much more valuable than some guy with a tight schedule...
And this of course also works on a lower level with European/American pros... infact i think many European players are already like that... and it shows...
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On April 05 2013 04:14 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:07 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:23 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 02:20 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:12 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:27 rei wrote:
[quote]
practicing 10 to 14 hours in a well structured team house in the exact same environment as the Koreans will not produce the same skills. Let me give you an example, Idra did that korean team house thing for years, and nony still came along came out of his 5 year retirement and trained for 2 weeks at his house in USA and proceed to roflstomp idra without that korean team house environment.
saying koreans are better because of their educational system, because of their culture, because of their race is so wrong, do you think their education and culture and race allow ppl like mvp, taejja and flash and many others grind through the pain that is carpal tunnel and refuse to let up? and then surgically repair the wrist and keep at it?
Contributing the each individual player's achievement to their race and culture is racism. Ya even if it's a positive praise, you are taking away the glory from the person and giving it to their race, and say their culture produced it. Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea. Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism. "I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts. Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better. Your proof is two boX? He lost to F91 and NonY. F91 being one of the very best Zergs at that time also taking games off of NaDa and NonY being an execptional player as well winning close by 3-2 ... not even taking the games into account. I can still remember his cancelled cc into gg. Your arguments are not just weak, but barely there. ya, after ad hominem, you decide to use strawman fallacy, labeling my evidence as weak does not take away the fact these evidence supports my argument, korean practice environment, and hard working that was idra did not respect the game, did not respect his opponent, did not have the skill to beat 2 people who did not practice nearly as hard as he did nor did those 2 person grind it out in korea as he did. tell me what do you think talent is in the game of sc2? Were you involved into Starcraft Broodwar? Because it sure does seem like you were not. NonY was an expectional player who did practice on iccup against mostly Koreans and tried to smooth out his builds as much as possible. You could always tell by the build order and placement who was playing. F91 was one of the chinese pros that were very similar to the Korean scene actually. F91, Legend ... if I remember correctly they even went to Korea for a short period of time and they sure did practice just as much as the Koreans. Also NonY was actually one of the very few persons IdrA did respect, resulting in him gg'ing out of every game, but it seems like you will not back off your point even if proven wrong. you proved what wrong? I have both nony and Idra in my team, we ended up needing to kick idra out for smurfing in a clan match, F91 was not in korea, and he wasn't consider to be on part with any big name korean. the whole reason i bought those these 2 boX is to support my argument that korean practice environment is not the key factor to produce results. You have said nothing to disprove that argument. By saying F91 and nony was respectable argument does not take away the fact that they both beat idra without using the korean practice environment. This is evidence for "practice environment is not the key factor to better result" If you want to disprove me, you would have to put down your own evidences such as a foreigner being in korean practice environment have produce consistent results against the koreans. (hell idra wasn't even fighting koreans for those 2 best of X and he still got his ass kicked) and then I gave you even more evidence about stephano did not need the korean practice environment to produce consistent results against the koreans. against this also support my argument that which is " practice environment is not the key factor to better result , i am not saying it would not help, but without talent no amount of practice can make you on part with the truly talented. You make tons of fallacies and I even point it out to you, yet you still say you proven me wrong? Statistic minority doesn't matter in overall statistics. Thats just how it is. Because IdrA doesn't put up amazing results (note: he did put up results) is not reflection of Korean training. Besides that Korean practice and especially Koreans do benefit from not having a language barrier. F91 and the chinese training was - in fact - really similar to Korean practice . Also if you cannot beat an argument of me - you simply ignore it. Thats a good way to win an argument against someone who will fall for it. I'll wait for you to actually counter my argument with facts. I did mention, that you have the proof of superior Korean practice all the time due to Koreans domenating non Koreans. You say its talent, I ask you; is every Korean talented? I ask you to go and see for example rets interview about Korea and how he didn't like it, yet it did improve his play a ton. Even if you argue that Korean training is not key, you cannot deny (at least) the fact that its superior and does - in fact - deliver results.
not sure what you are talking about when you said I ignored you, there are too many ppl i replied to i might have not notice it, i am not denying the korean training is superior and it would deliver results. because all the koreans achievement are clear evidence for that
but it still has nothing to do with my argument. What i am saying is that the korean training will not help if you don't process the talent to get those results in the first place, there are tons of koreans who practice in the korean training and sucks ass and they get weed out and you never heard of them. Have you consider that fact? Do you know about this old tournament Kespa used to run to spot new prospects? it's call the courage tournament, and you need to win it to get a pro licence, and there are ton of koreans attending that every time, and 99% of them fail and fail and fail, only 1 succeed. There were ton of 500apm monsters that are faster than nada back in the days, but they can't even get out of courage. Idra didn't win a courage tournament, ret didn't win it, even nony as close as he came within one game of winning it on his first try, he still didn't win it.
I hope you can understand what i'm trying to tell you, whatever you are seeing right at in the kroean scene, they are the best of the best in the pool that include many many other less talented koreans. all ones who did not have talents already got weeded out. If you swap all the foreigners of now days with all the kespa players and have them train in the kespa team while the kespa players stay home and practice for themselves online, the kespa players would still dominate.
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On April 05 2013 04:30 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:18 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:16 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 04:14 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:59 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:55 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:46 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:28 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:21 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:19 Technique wrote:
[quote]
Ok tell me one thing that coach can do that a dedicated player can't do on his own?
It's all about self discipline.
Those coaches got nothing to teach... this ain't some old sport like boxing/football etc...
Also you think i don't understand they stream for money because i say it's a time waste? I was speaking from a point of view were players try to catch up to the Korean skill level... streaming and long ladder sessions can't be part of that. Mindset, mentality, stress handling, scheduling, offering a neutral observation of your game. Why do professional sport athletes have coaches? Because they do have insight. A coach can't have a proper observation of your game unless he's as high a level as you are... which like i said before, players can help each other with such ''coaching''. The offline tournament stress should be gone after a few tournaments as well. And didn't i mention that you can't compare this to old sports? For obvious reasons. No, you don't need to be as good as a progamer in terms of mechanical skill to actually be good at understanding the game. Some one who is not actively training will at best be able to follow the metagame and recognize the timings from a observer point of view... that's nothing special/useful. You will need to get ahead of the curve and estimate timings/strats with limited information if you want to separate yourself from the other ''top'' players. What kind of understanding can you bring to the table if it comes to the pro scene? Lots of players gain insight from watching the games and understanding the timings, because they don't have the problems you have as a player, which is incomplete information. They can immediately tell during or after a game how the timings will work out, where you could have improved or how to create timings. Only because you are mechanically not fit doesn't mean you cannot create strategy. I'll never be as good as Korean pros, yet I can discuss strategy with my friends among the German / European pros, because I understand strategies and their problems as well as the timing windows, doesn't mean I'm mechanically capable of playing them or executing them. It's an illusion, you only think you can. There are so much variables that new game specific timings occur which you as non pro player won't recognize. Players like mvp are CONSTANTLY re adjusting and re evaluating the situation in game. Not to speak of having to deal with ''new'' strats in tournaments like GSL were people prepare specifically for one opponent. Either way, bored of this discussion. I think I can? I know I can and for what reason? Because the pros do agree with me on my opinion. It doesn't matter if you disagree and are bored with that discussion. It also doesn't matter because you cannot provide anything to counterproof that coaches are actually useful to players. PS: Most coaches were progamers to begin with. I keep asking him that question, but he keeps ignoring it. He knows he wrong, but just doesn't want to respond to the points that every professional in the industry and the results of numerous pro-leagues disagree with him. Neither of you brought forward any proper argument against what i was saying... I said a coach is not needed if you got self discipline and help/coach each other... MVP and Nestea commenting on each other their game and point out holes or asking what they have problems against etc is so much more valuable than some guy with a tight schedule... And this of course also works on a lower level with European/American pros... infact i think many European players are already like that... and it shows...
So why does Flash have a coach? Or Life? Why did Team Liquid hire one? Why do all the pro-league teams have coaches? Are you saying these players are doing it wrong?
We don't need to prove anything. The entire industry uses coaches and you are saying they are bad. Prove why.
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On April 05 2013 04:20 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:16 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:11 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On April 05 2013 04:08 StrifeIsBack wrote:On April 05 2013 03:26 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:25 StrifeIsBack wrote:On April 05 2013 03:18 Type|NarutO wrote:
No one is argueing that we need leagues in NA/EU. People are argueing about Korean participation should be allowed or not.
The thread is technically about why we prefer foreigners over koreans. Not either of the two things brought about in my quote or your quote. Yet in my previous post I go on to talk about why I prefer foreigners over koreans, and why koreans are bad for SC2 and esports as a whole. Bad for Starcraft 2 and eSports as a whole, you cannot be serious. Really you cannot. Truly can be serious. Read my post? League is far superior to SC2 due to the NA scene, and not having Koreans dominate foreigners 24/7 every tournament lol. Koreans are the best at LoL though. They might not play every tournament but they're still the best, so basically LoL operates the same system are Blizzard are putting in here. What you said was the Koreans are bad for Sc2, which is retarded. Just like saying Brazilians are bad for football, or black people are bad for Basketball. I see his point, though made poorly. He is saying that Brazil would be bad for football if their team game over to every event and crushed every other team. Having Koreans coming over to kick the crap out of all the foreign players is bad for growth, because there are no new foreign players entering the scene. You can't start everyone in grandmasters, some people need to be in masters or diamond. I agree with that which is why I suggested the football mode where you have a domestic and international scene running concurrently where you get both the best vs the best and a chance to build your domestic scene, which is what Blizzard are going for here. What that guy suggested though is that Sc2 would be better as an esport if Korea had never picked up the game. Which is ridiculous.
Never did I say that it would be great if Korea never picked up the game. For fucks sake read my post before you comment 
Also, you guys make it out that it would be so easy for foreigners to sit down in a team house wherever the team is located, and practice for 16 hours a day. I ask you, and beg you to provide me proof that you could do that without a salary. Which is exactly why the growth of foreign esports needs to happen so that that can happen like koreans have it. To be able to sit for 12-16 hours a day and play StarCraft with your team, and coach, and not worry about having to pay for your rent or internet...
Using the "racist" theory for region locking tournaments is also stupid. That's not racist in any way shape or form, and unfortunately if koreans are just going to march over the entire planet, and dominate the sport to the point that no one other than koreans are playing it's what will end up happening.
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i respect koreans' talent and love to watch the magic that is their gameplay. however, i dont associate with them personally. i associate with foreigners--ironically, even foreigners who aren't similar to me. thus, i like to watch foreigners play. moreover, i love to root for the underdog, which is the foreigners, and when a foreigner goes on a winning streak against koreans it is exciting. when they get roflstomped it is not exciting. thus, i would not give any handicaps to foreigners. just give them an equal playing field (i.e., chance to play).
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On April 05 2013 04:30 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:18 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:16 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 04:14 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:59 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:55 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:46 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:28 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:21 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:19 Technique wrote:
[quote]
Ok tell me one thing that coach can do that a dedicated player can't do on his own?
It's all about self discipline.
Those coaches got nothing to teach... this ain't some old sport like boxing/football etc...
Also you think i don't understand they stream for money because i say it's a time waste? I was speaking from a point of view were players try to catch up to the Korean skill level... streaming and long ladder sessions can't be part of that. Mindset, mentality, stress handling, scheduling, offering a neutral observation of your game. Why do professional sport athletes have coaches? Because they do have insight. A coach can't have a proper observation of your game unless he's as high a level as you are... which like i said before, players can help each other with such ''coaching''. The offline tournament stress should be gone after a few tournaments as well. And didn't i mention that you can't compare this to old sports? For obvious reasons. No, you don't need to be as good as a progamer in terms of mechanical skill to actually be good at understanding the game. Some one who is not actively training will at best be able to follow the metagame and recognize the timings from a observer point of view... that's nothing special/useful. You will need to get ahead of the curve and estimate timings/strats with limited information if you want to separate yourself from the other ''top'' players. What kind of understanding can you bring to the table if it comes to the pro scene? Lots of players gain insight from watching the games and understanding the timings, because they don't have the problems you have as a player, which is incomplete information. They can immediately tell during or after a game how the timings will work out, where you could have improved or how to create timings. Only because you are mechanically not fit doesn't mean you cannot create strategy. I'll never be as good as Korean pros, yet I can discuss strategy with my friends among the German / European pros, because I understand strategies and their problems as well as the timing windows, doesn't mean I'm mechanically capable of playing them or executing them. It's an illusion, you only think you can. There are so much variables that new game specific timings occur which you as non pro player won't recognize. Players like mvp are CONSTANTLY re adjusting and re evaluating the situation in game. Not to speak of having to deal with ''new'' strats in tournaments like GSL were people prepare specifically for one opponent. Either way, bored of this discussion. I think I can? I know I can and for what reason? Because the pros do agree with me on my opinion. It doesn't matter if you disagree and are bored with that discussion. It also doesn't matter because you cannot provide anything to counterproof that coaches are actually useful to players. PS: Most coaches were progamers to begin with. I keep asking him that question, but he keeps ignoring it. He knows he wrong, but just doesn't want to respond to the points that every professional in the industry and the results of numerous pro-leagues disagree with him. Neither of you brought forward any proper argument against what i was saying... I said a coach is not needed if you got self discipline and help/coach each other... MVP and Nestea commenting on each other their game and point out holes or asking what they have problems against etc is so much more valuable than some guy with a tight schedule... And this of course also works on a lower level with European/American pros... infact i think many European players are already like that... and it shows...
I must admit, in my 10 years on tl.net, I`ve never seen more stupid person than you.
User was warned for this post
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On April 05 2013 04:33 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:30 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 04:18 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:16 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 04:14 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:59 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:55 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:46 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:28 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:21 Type|NarutO wrote:
[quote]
Mindset, mentality, stress handling, scheduling, offering a neutral observation of your game. Why do professional sport athletes have coaches? Because they do have insight.
A coach can't have a proper observation of your game unless he's as high a level as you are... which like i said before, players can help each other with such ''coaching''. The offline tournament stress should be gone after a few tournaments as well. And didn't i mention that you can't compare this to old sports? For obvious reasons. No, you don't need to be as good as a progamer in terms of mechanical skill to actually be good at understanding the game. Some one who is not actively training will at best be able to follow the metagame and recognize the timings from a observer point of view... that's nothing special/useful. You will need to get ahead of the curve and estimate timings/strats with limited information if you want to separate yourself from the other ''top'' players. What kind of understanding can you bring to the table if it comes to the pro scene? Lots of players gain insight from watching the games and understanding the timings, because they don't have the problems you have as a player, which is incomplete information. They can immediately tell during or after a game how the timings will work out, where you could have improved or how to create timings. Only because you are mechanically not fit doesn't mean you cannot create strategy. I'll never be as good as Korean pros, yet I can discuss strategy with my friends among the German / European pros, because I understand strategies and their problems as well as the timing windows, doesn't mean I'm mechanically capable of playing them or executing them. It's an illusion, you only think you can. There are so much variables that new game specific timings occur which you as non pro player won't recognize. Players like mvp are CONSTANTLY re adjusting and re evaluating the situation in game. Not to speak of having to deal with ''new'' strats in tournaments like GSL were people prepare specifically for one opponent. Either way, bored of this discussion. I think I can? I know I can and for what reason? Because the pros do agree with me on my opinion. It doesn't matter if you disagree and are bored with that discussion. It also doesn't matter because you cannot provide anything to counterproof that coaches are actually useful to players. PS: Most coaches were progamers to begin with. I keep asking him that question, but he keeps ignoring it. He knows he wrong, but just doesn't want to respond to the points that every professional in the industry and the results of numerous pro-leagues disagree with him. Neither of you brought forward any proper argument against what i was saying... I said a coach is not needed if you got self discipline and help/coach each other... MVP and Nestea commenting on each other their game and point out holes or asking what they have problems against etc is so much more valuable than some guy with a tight schedule... And this of course also works on a lower level with European/American pros... infact i think many European players are already like that... and it shows... So why does Flash have a coach? Or Life? Why did Team Liquid hire one? Why do all the pro-league teams have coaches? Are you saying these players are doing it wrong? We don't need to prove anything. The entire industry uses coaches and you are saying they are bad. Prove why.
I don't say they are bad... i say they are not needed and not having one should not be used as an excuse.
As for the actual training... yes actual players that want to make each other better like the MVP/Nestea example i gave (could of used Flash with whoever if it makes you happy?) is indeed were it's at... and not with some ''professional coach''.
But try to give an actual argument other than so and so has a coach?
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On April 05 2013 04:32 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:14 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 04:07 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:23 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 02:20 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:12 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:
[quote]
Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea.
Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism.
"I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts. Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better. Your proof is two boX? He lost to F91 and NonY. F91 being one of the very best Zergs at that time also taking games off of NaDa and NonY being an execptional player as well winning close by 3-2 ... not even taking the games into account. I can still remember his cancelled cc into gg. Your arguments are not just weak, but barely there. ya, after ad hominem, you decide to use strawman fallacy, labeling my evidence as weak does not take away the fact these evidence supports my argument, korean practice environment, and hard working that was idra did not respect the game, did not respect his opponent, did not have the skill to beat 2 people who did not practice nearly as hard as he did nor did those 2 person grind it out in korea as he did. tell me what do you think talent is in the game of sc2? Were you involved into Starcraft Broodwar? Because it sure does seem like you were not. NonY was an expectional player who did practice on iccup against mostly Koreans and tried to smooth out his builds as much as possible. You could always tell by the build order and placement who was playing. F91 was one of the chinese pros that were very similar to the Korean scene actually. F91, Legend ... if I remember correctly they even went to Korea for a short period of time and they sure did practice just as much as the Koreans. Also NonY was actually one of the very few persons IdrA did respect, resulting in him gg'ing out of every game, but it seems like you will not back off your point even if proven wrong. you proved what wrong? I have both nony and Idra in my team, we ended up needing to kick idra out for smurfing in a clan match, F91 was not in korea, and he wasn't consider to be on part with any big name korean. the whole reason i bought those these 2 boX is to support my argument that korean practice environment is not the key factor to produce results. You have said nothing to disprove that argument. By saying F91 and nony was respectable argument does not take away the fact that they both beat idra without using the korean practice environment. This is evidence for "practice environment is not the key factor to better result" If you want to disprove me, you would have to put down your own evidences such as a foreigner being in korean practice environment have produce consistent results against the koreans. (hell idra wasn't even fighting koreans for those 2 best of X and he still got his ass kicked) and then I gave you even more evidence about stephano did not need the korean practice environment to produce consistent results against the koreans. against this also support my argument that which is " practice environment is not the key factor to better result , i am not saying it would not help, but without talent no amount of practice can make you on part with the truly talented. You make tons of fallacies and I even point it out to you, yet you still say you proven me wrong? Statistic minority doesn't matter in overall statistics. Thats just how it is. Because IdrA doesn't put up amazing results (note: he did put up results) is not reflection of Korean training. Besides that Korean practice and especially Koreans do benefit from not having a language barrier. F91 and the chinese training was - in fact - really similar to Korean practice . Also if you cannot beat an argument of me - you simply ignore it. Thats a good way to win an argument against someone who will fall for it. I'll wait for you to actually counter my argument with facts. I did mention, that you have the proof of superior Korean practice all the time due to Koreans domenating non Koreans. You say its talent, I ask you; is every Korean talented? I ask you to go and see for example rets interview about Korea and how he didn't like it, yet it did improve his play a ton. Even if you argue that Korean training is not key, you cannot deny (at least) the fact that its superior and does - in fact - deliver results. not sure what you are talking about when you said I ignored you, there are too many ppl i replied to i might have not notice it, i am not denying the korean training is superior and it would deliver results. because all the koreans achievement are clear evidence for that but it still has nothing to do with my argument. What i am saying is that the korean training will not help if you don't process the talent to get those results in the first place, there are tons of koreans who practice in the korean training and sucks ass and they get weed out and you never heard of them. Have you consider that fact? Do you know about this old tournament Kespa used to run to spot new prospects? it's call the courage tournament, and you need to win it to get a pro licence, and there are ton of koreans attending that every time, and 99% of them fail and fail and fail, only 1 succeed. There were ton of 500apm monsters that are faster than nada back in the days, but they can't even get out of courage. Idra didn't win a courage tournament, ret didn't win it, even nony as close as he came within one game of winning it on his first try, he still didn't win it. I hope you can understand what i'm trying to tell you, whatever you are seeing right at in the kroean scene, they are the best of the best in the pool that include many many other less talented koreans. all ones who did not have talents already got weeded out. If you swap all the foreigners of now days with all the kespa players and have them train in the kespa team while the kespa players stay home and practice for themselves online, the kespa players would still dominate.
Thats the first post of you I can agree with and thats the only point I never argued. You made it sound like Koreans are naturally talented / better than foreigners whereas we already said that they are just good at
1) finding players
2) raising players
We all know that you don't enter a Korean progaming house and magically leave it as Starcraft god, but their training and superior environment allows for every player to improve. Ofcourse not everyone can be a Flash or a Life, ofcourse there are people more capable of understand and / or playing the game, but that doesn't mean that what we stated (Korean training is superior and does improve you over time in a lot higher fashion than any other training does) is wrong. It also is completely correct, that to reach the highest level of competition you NEED to play in Korea. We all saw Stephano taking games off of Koreans, but that was first of all a small sample size and secondly he was not always facing the best of the best. Ofcourse he took down Code - S calibers and some of the best players, but thats one exceptional player from thousands, so this should not be taken into consideration if you speak of statistically relevant things.
Yes I do know about courage, but you didn't have to win it to get your progamer licence ;-)! Flash for example didn't win his courage in the first place, still got his licence^^.
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On April 05 2013 04:27 Plansix wrote:
I would argue they have a better system in place for finding the best players and then providing them with the support they need to become the best. This system is supported and funded by the largest companies in the country and also receives government support.
this is what I agree on, they have a better system in place for them to find better talents! the foreigners don't. never mind the support and the funding, if they can't find the best talents they can find in the first place they would not be dominating like this.
Here is the history behind the talent searching in kespa, they had this one thing call courage tournament in bw days, all the current pros had to fought through this courage tournament to get a pro license. It's just as brutal as GSL code A qualifier, when a player wins courage, they get pick up by a team. and all those who doesn't win time after time, they get faded out and weeded out. What you see in kespa are the best of the best out of thousands of koreans who thinks they can make it to the big stage. That's the talents the rest of the world can not match, unless you are stephano.
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On April 05 2013 04:34 StrifeIsBack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:20 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On April 05 2013 04:16 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:11 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On April 05 2013 04:08 StrifeIsBack wrote:On April 05 2013 03:26 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:25 StrifeIsBack wrote:On April 05 2013 03:18 Type|NarutO wrote:
No one is argueing that we need leagues in NA/EU. People are argueing about Korean participation should be allowed or not.
The thread is technically about why we prefer foreigners over koreans. Not either of the two things brought about in my quote or your quote. Yet in my previous post I go on to talk about why I prefer foreigners over koreans, and why koreans are bad for SC2 and esports as a whole. Bad for Starcraft 2 and eSports as a whole, you cannot be serious. Really you cannot. Truly can be serious. Read my post? League is far superior to SC2 due to the NA scene, and not having Koreans dominate foreigners 24/7 every tournament lol. Koreans are the best at LoL though. They might not play every tournament but they're still the best, so basically LoL operates the same system are Blizzard are putting in here. What you said was the Koreans are bad for Sc2, which is retarded. Just like saying Brazilians are bad for football, or black people are bad for Basketball. I see his point, though made poorly. He is saying that Brazil would be bad for football if their team game over to every event and crushed every other team. Having Koreans coming over to kick the crap out of all the foreign players is bad for growth, because there are no new foreign players entering the scene. You can't start everyone in grandmasters, some people need to be in masters or diamond. I agree with that which is why I suggested the football mode where you have a domestic and international scene running concurrently where you get both the best vs the best and a chance to build your domestic scene, which is what Blizzard are going for here. What that guy suggested though is that Sc2 would be better as an esport if Korea had never picked up the game. Which is ridiculous. Never did I say that it would be great if Korea never picked up the game. For fucks sake read my post before you comment Also, you guys make it out that it would be so easy for foreigners to sit down in a team house wherever the team is located, and practice for 16 hours a day. I ask you, and beg you to provide me proof that you could do that without a salary. Which is exactly why the growth of foreign esports needs to happen so that that can happen like koreans have it. To be able to sit for 12-16 hours a day and play StarCraft with your team, and coach, and not worry about having to pay for your rent or internet... Using the "racist" theory for region locking tournaments is also stupid. That's not racist in any way shape or form, and unfortunately if koreans are just going to march over the entire planet, and dominate the sport to the point that no one other than koreans are playing it's what will end up happening.
Sallary is not my concern, if you can provide me shelter and food, I'll gladly play for 16 hours a day and improve.
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On April 05 2013 04:39 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:27 Plansix wrote:
I would argue they have a better system in place for finding the best players and then providing them with the support they need to become the best. This system is supported and funded by the largest companies in the country and also receives government support.
this is what I agree on, they have a better system in place for them to find better talents! the foreigners don't. never mind the support and the funding, if they can't find the best talents they can find in the first place they would not be dominating like this. Here is the history behind the talent searching in kespa, they had this one thing call courage tournament in bw days, all the current pros had to fought through this courage tournament to get a pro license. It's just as brutal as GSL code A qualifier, when a player wins courage, they get pick up by a team. and all those who doesn't win time after time, they get faded out and weeded out. What you see in kespa are the best of the best out of thousands of koreans who thinks they can make it to the big stage. That's the talents the rest of the world can not match, unless you are stephano.
Your statement generally is right, but not completely true. By.Snow for example didn't win courage, but has a progamer licence, because teams can give it out. IdrA got a progamer licence as well without winning courage. Also Draco. Besides that, there was a foreigner (Assem) who won a courage tournament. Also Legionnaire
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@naruto
and how many foreigner teams do you see that happening? O.o very very few foreign teams have team houses, and the sort setup. The only NA team that has a team house setup is EG and they are obviously the best NA team.
That's my point we need to grow the foreign scene so that we can attain the things that the korean scene has so that one day the foreign scene can be/will be on par with that of the koreans, and for once foreigners can dominate.
Even more so the up and coming players don't have teams, and can't sustain themselves to playing SC2 for as long as the pros do. Without up and coming players there is no youth to foster, and raise, and educate. Hence no new names.
Why do you think it's so hard for amateur foreign teams to be established, and noticed? No sponsors. Nothing to gain for the player. That's why esports in general is just so damn hard to break into, and continue playing at a pace, and level that is needed for tournament play because we have no infastructure like all of the korean teamhouses.
LG sponsors IM. Samsung sponsors Khan, all the big sponsors are in KR. Not much towards the way of EU or NA let alone SEA. Everythign is korean focused damn it >.< and that's not good for SC2. That's my point. We have to get the focus away from Korea and more about the eSports as a whole.
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EPT
