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On April 08 2013 16:44 freakhill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 14:37 FireMonkey wrote:
it's what people want to see, it's a race war, they want to see their favourite white guy supressing their korean invaders. Well... no... just no. This opinion is... trollish at best?
it's fact, look at the statistics, all the tourneys featured koreans and non koreans, all get signifigantly more views than solely korean tournaments, code s gets ~20-30k views average, mlg got 80k views at one point. When huk and stephano were in code s last season, those particular nights got more views than the others...because people want to see the white guy taking home the glory, going to korean lands and metaphorically stealing their home's prize. It's an irony thing because in sc2 scene white people are the minority so as i said more fuel for the race war.
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On April 08 2013 17:22 FireMonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 16:44 freakhill wrote:On April 08 2013 14:37 FireMonkey wrote:
it's what people want to see, it's a race war, they want to see their favourite white guy supressing their korean invaders. Well... no... just no. This opinion is... trollish at best? it's fact, look at the statistics, all the tourneys featured koreans and non koreans, all get signifigantly more views than solely korean tournaments, code s gets ~20-30k views average, mlg got 80k views at one point. When huk and stephano were in code s last season, those particular nights got more views than the others...because people want to see the white guy taking home the glory, going to korean lands and metaphorically stealing their home's prize. It's an irony thing because in sc2 scene white people are the minority so as i said more fuel for the race war.
That also have to do with code S being on like every week (cept for off seasons) and MLG is only for one weekend like once every 2 months. The last MLG got 120k ~ views but all the white people lost by the first day already and it was all korean O_O
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On April 08 2013 17:27 phodacbiet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 17:22 FireMonkey wrote:On April 08 2013 16:44 freakhill wrote:On April 08 2013 14:37 FireMonkey wrote:
it's what people want to see, it's a race war, they want to see their favourite white guy supressing their korean invaders. Well... no... just no. This opinion is... trollish at best? it's fact, look at the statistics, all the tourneys featured koreans and non koreans, all get signifigantly more views than solely korean tournaments, code s gets ~20-30k views average, mlg got 80k views at one point. When huk and stephano were in code s last season, those particular nights got more views than the others...because people want to see the white guy taking home the glory, going to korean lands and metaphorically stealing their home's prize. It's an irony thing because in sc2 scene white people are the minority so as i said more fuel for the race war. That also have to do with code S being on like every week (cept for off seasons) and MLG is only for one weekend like once every 2 months. The last MLG got 120k ~ views but all the white people lost by the first day already and it was all korean O_O
those were koreans watching their race dominate the white man
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On April 08 2013 17:22 FireMonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 16:44 freakhill wrote:On April 08 2013 14:37 FireMonkey wrote:
it's what people want to see, it's a race war, they want to see their favourite white guy supressing their korean invaders. Well... no... just no. This opinion is... trollish at best? it's fact, look at the statistics, all the tourneys featured koreans and non koreans, all get signifigantly more views than solely korean tournaments, code s gets ~20-30k views average, mlg got 80k views at one point. When huk and stephano were in code s last season, those particular nights got more views than the others...because people want to see the white guy taking home the glory, going to korean lands and metaphorically stealing their home's prize. It's an irony thing because in sc2 scene white people are the minority so as i said more fuel for the race war.
You're comparing GSL's 4-5 matches a day before the finals to a two day tournament.
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On April 08 2013 17:56 FireMonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 17:27 phodacbiet wrote:On April 08 2013 17:22 FireMonkey wrote:On April 08 2013 16:44 freakhill wrote:On April 08 2013 14:37 FireMonkey wrote:
it's what people want to see, it's a race war, they want to see their favourite white guy supressing their korean invaders. Well... no... just no. This opinion is... trollish at best? it's fact, look at the statistics, all the tourneys featured koreans and non koreans, all get signifigantly more views than solely korean tournaments, code s gets ~20-30k views average, mlg got 80k views at one point. When huk and stephano were in code s last season, those particular nights got more views than the others...because people want to see the white guy taking home the glory, going to korean lands and metaphorically stealing their home's prize. It's an irony thing because in sc2 scene white people are the minority so as i said more fuel for the race war. That also have to do with code S being on like every week (cept for off seasons) and MLG is only for one weekend like once every 2 months. The last MLG got 120k ~ views but all the white people lost by the first day already and it was all korean O_O those were koreans watching their race dominate the white man
Which got knocked out by the first day cept for the white people lucky enough to run into other white people. The 100-120k were for the rest of the tourneys (sat/sunday) where it was for korean on korean action. Sure its interesting once in awhile to see a white guy get a chance to beat a korean, but nowadays its not because its just korean stomping. To be entertaining, the underdog needs to have a small chance of winning, in a bo5 the best you can hope these day is that the white guy take a game -.-
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When looking into the big picture, the disparity of Korean vs Foreigner matchup comes mostly from inferior RTS background in western scene, im talking infrastructure, coaching, mentality.
To give some analogy, real world winter olympics are dominated by countries with long history of winning those, laziness is second-hand argument to throw around when it comes to statistics or history.
The fact is Korean Starcraft scene was always superior because they had a centered system (1 country, 1 culture, 1 language), they established their incentives (fame, being on TV, magazines, Esports venture into daily life) also strenghtened by the problems that make them more video-game centric (escapism coming from being in war with NK, education system and others).
We had few examples of domination in western E-sport scene, one that comes to my mind was Sweden in CS era 2001-2004/5 even when the domination is no longer there(like, 4 teams in the top5 teams are no longer always swedish), its still the most influential country in that particular game. As an active player in that period of time i remember how influential Swedish scene was to CS. They had at least 4 to 5 times more international-level players then other countries.
Now let's back to main topic, so called laziness is an argument you can throw in regard of few examples, Starcraft is +10 year old competition, and foreigners (look, we call the majority of the world foreigners, thats the BW legacy) were never good barring early era, where few people wanted to spend few years in Korea and eat/talk/behave like them (i'm looking at you Grrrr.../Elky/Leg etc. ;D)
The game may have changed, and it is crazy (as in crazy good) to see that western people started to cherish Korea dominated esport, maybe it is sustainable as opposed to BW, but in case of why BW didn't succed(in that regard) i would say the lack of media was the downfall, the true downfall was however a complete lack of care from Blizzard, cause BW was popular casual game back in the day but no one ever saw any incentives of doing it seriously, because the main incentives lied in Korea, behind the iron curtain of shitty early internet. There was no heroes to look up for, one of reasons why CS eclipsed over BW in western scene.
But, overlooking the danger of "repeating of BW" would be a mistake. When Blizzard announced they will make a global league they gave us some incentive, it is good, however i was sad, giving a fish when you need a fishing rod... is just going easy. Welcome to global league of Korean Starcraft, am I happy? Yes, but im well aware of that 50% of specators who would not tune in because of that.
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On April 08 2013 17:56 FireMonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 17:27 phodacbiet wrote:On April 08 2013 17:22 FireMonkey wrote:On April 08 2013 16:44 freakhill wrote:On April 08 2013 14:37 FireMonkey wrote:
it's what people want to see, it's a race war, they want to see their favourite white guy supressing their korean invaders. Well... no... just no. This opinion is... trollish at best? it's fact, look at the statistics, all the tourneys featured koreans and non koreans, all get signifigantly more views than solely korean tournaments, code s gets ~20-30k views average, mlg got 80k views at one point. When huk and stephano were in code s last season, those particular nights got more views than the others...because people want to see the white guy taking home the glory, going to korean lands and metaphorically stealing their home's prize. It's an irony thing because in sc2 scene white people are the minority so as i said more fuel for the race war. That also have to do with code S being on like every week (cept for off seasons) and MLG is only for one weekend like once every 2 months. The last MLG got 120k ~ views but all the white people lost by the first day already and it was all korean O_O those were koreans watching their race dominate the white man
The troll has spoken.
Let's just move on.
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On April 08 2013 17:22 FireMonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 16:44 freakhill wrote:On April 08 2013 14:37 FireMonkey wrote:
it's what people want to see, it's a race war, they want to see their favourite white guy supressing their korean invaders. Well... no... just no. This opinion is... trollish at best? it's fact, look at the statistics, all the tourneys featured koreans and non koreans, all get signifigantly more views than solely korean tournaments, code s gets ~20-30k views average, mlg got 80k views at one point. When huk and stephano were in code s last season, those particular nights got more views than the others...because people want to see the white guy taking home the glory, going to korean lands and metaphorically stealing their home's prize. It's an irony thing because in sc2 scene white people are the minority so as i said more fuel for the race war.
hahaha
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They should make EU version of GSL for instance in Amsterdam and NA in California and force every team make houses there. That's the only way to make WCS as successful, rise level of competition in these regions as GSL and Korean pro scene currently is.
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On April 08 2013 19:21 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 17:56 FireMonkey wrote:On April 08 2013 17:27 phodacbiet wrote:On April 08 2013 17:22 FireMonkey wrote:On April 08 2013 16:44 freakhill wrote:On April 08 2013 14:37 FireMonkey wrote:
it's what people want to see, it's a race war, they want to see their favourite white guy supressing their korean invaders. Well... no... just no. This opinion is... trollish at best? it's fact, look at the statistics, all the tourneys featured koreans and non koreans, all get signifigantly more views than solely korean tournaments, code s gets ~20-30k views average, mlg got 80k views at one point. When huk and stephano were in code s last season, those particular nights got more views than the others...because people want to see the white guy taking home the glory, going to korean lands and metaphorically stealing their home's prize. It's an irony thing because in sc2 scene white people are the minority so as i said more fuel for the race war. That also have to do with code S being on like every week (cept for off seasons) and MLG is only for one weekend like once every 2 months. The last MLG got 120k ~ views but all the white people lost by the first day already and it was all korean O_O those were koreans watching their race dominate the white man The troll has spoken. Let's just move on.
God damn man, he is trolling so hard though. I mean, this is some high level stuff here.
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Living as Korean programer must feel like you're missing out on life itself. No wonder foreigners don't practice as hard. People here want to watch the best possible games, even at the expense of a few kids having missed the best days of their life.
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On April 04 2013 22:32 Technique wrote:
Well in football/ice hockey they also don't remove the top teams/players so that the bad team you are cheering for can win the league right?
On the other side of what you just said, though, that bottom-end team does get to play, they don't get replaced by better talent from Korea or wherever.
If you want to get e-sports started on a US or French or UK or Dutch or Canadian or <pick your country> basis, then people need people to cheer for that live there. Think of it like watching basketball in Europe. People watch their local leagues, and support them, and everything, but they *know* when the Olympics come every four years, the US NBA stars will almost always win. But does Europe want to invite NBA teams to their EU league championships, because they're 'the best'? No.
If you insist on always inviting the Koreans to every tournament, and letting them vacuum up all the prize money because they're the best...you'll never get SC2 started as an e-sport as anything but an adjunct to Korean e-sports; i.e. in five years, it'll be BW all over again, and only be an e-sport in Korea.
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On April 09 2013 00:15 mavfin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 22:32 Technique wrote:
Well in football/ice hockey they also don't remove the top teams/players so that the bad team you are cheering for can win the league right? On the other side of what you just said, though, that bottom-end team does get to play, they don't get replaced by better talent from Korea or wherever. If you want to get e-sports started on a US or French or UK or Dutch or Canadian or <pick your country> basis, then people need people to cheer for that live there. Think of it like watching basketball in Europe. People watch their local leagues, and support them, and everything, but they *know* when the Olympics come every four years, the US NBA stars will almost always win. But does Europe want to invite NBA teams to their EU league championships, because they're 'the best'? No. If you insist on always inviting the Koreans to every tournament, and letting them vacuum up all the prize money because they're the best...you'll never get SC2 started as an e-sport as anything but an adjunct to Korean e-sports; i.e. in five years, it'll be BW all over again, and only be an e-sport in Korea.
To use my go-to example, The Red Sox had one of the worst seasons in their history last year. No one is talking about replacing them with a new team or not paying the players. There are leagues out there that are not the best in the world and they exist, if only for the purpose of providing the local population with games to go to and enjoy.
There are 1000 reasons to have local leagues and events and making enjoyable for people. The best in the world argument only holds weight on a global stage. Not all Esports leagues need to be global.
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Without making a depressingly long post, I'd like to piggy-back off CatZ idea that he put forth in SotG.
...and by that I mean I'd like to completely agree with him. I don't see the need for EVERY league in SC2 to be global 100% of the time. That in and of itself just sounds boring to me. I love being able to watch people from X region play only against people from X region because the games are entirely unique (there are quite a few reasons why I like this, but I'll list just that for now). Yes I love seeing the very highest level of play, but I don't see why we can't have some disparities.
Now, should there be global leagues? Absolutely! In fact that could be some of the most exciting content. However, if you see that content every month, all the time, it gets supremely worn out. I don't know about you, but if the Olympics (only using this as a reference, I'm well aware athletes would tire and their skill-levels drop significantly) were every month, I doubt people would give half a shit after about a year. Let's get some variety in the SC2 scene- while still holding the best players up, but keeping in mind each region needs love too.
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On April 06 2013 22:15 xAdra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 21:51 quebecman77 wrote:
im a 8 year broodwar player and i was someone who was alway saying let the best player in the world win , no matter where he from , reward skill , not where they are from , this was the offcial view about e-sport in broodwar , and let face it , in the end this was korean vs korean only.
and sadly the same start to happen in starcraft 2 , they are far less foreigner who can win vs korean , many top foreigner just stop playing , they give up , no one come after them . almost zero new blood , because you need money to live in this world and who want to enter it if you know you will win nothing ?
that cute to be the best of the best in a computer game but in the end MONEY of course motivate you .
TAKE THE KOREAN FOR THIS EXEMPLE , why they are not happy with the new blizzard league ? this clearly go with the mindset ''be the best in the world'' well no , they whine , they will get less money and they go full emo . they will even travel for go where the competive scene more easy for them.....
while the top foreigner are in this boat since 1-2 year now , they practice , get no money , win no tournament .
that would be about time from the people who want E-SPORT to grow to support it , are you guy blind ?
for e-sport to grow you need fans , for a fans the bond more strong when the guy come from your country , talk your langage and so on , THAT THE SAME IN ANY SPORT .
for grow e-sport you need people who dream about becoming a pro gamer , see people win tournament , get money and fame , you think people outside korea will want to become a pro gamer 2 year from now , when they see only korean win tournament after tournament ?
and honestly let talk about quality of the game and skill , top foreigner can make game fun to watch and some time way more fun to watch that watching a 1vs1 vs 2 korean , and honestly for most casual watcher they cant pick the skill diference from a top foreigner and a korean . that realy YOUR BEST REASON ??!
with your guy mindset of ''be the best of the best'' will kill e-sport and make starcraft 2 just like broodwar , mark my word because im going archive it and quote this topic 2 year from now ( hope this will be ok to bump a old post lol ? ) when the e-sport start to be only active in korea .
but this view dont help grow e-sport , Besides the obvious point that the grammar, spelling and general punctuation in this post are completely out of whack, I have to say:
Give the guy a pass. He's French Canadian; i.e. English is not his first language, and, indeed, he's *discouraged* from speaking English where he lives.
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I would absolutely agree with the OP. Except Blizzard had something different in mind.
Blizzard sees the need for WCS to crown the "best" player in the world rather than allowing the GSL/OSL to do so (for commercial reasons and whatnot). I see their point, GSL/OSL will run every season in Korea and foreigners won't travel when their chances of getting anything is so low when competing against the Koreans. Many foreigners are arguably able to compete with Koreans at the top level or at least many viewers believe there are many foreigners at a top level able to compete with Koreans thus Blizzard wants to make it a reality for foreigners to compete against Koreans consistently and the WCS 2013 formed allows that.
I gotta admit at first I felt the WCS system was terribly unfair given the gap between skill level and the unfairness to the highly skilled Koreans who will suffer from losing chances to participate in major MLG and ESL tourneys which will become WCS however the number of them moving out and the seeding system by Blizzard seems to be quite fair in terms of giving them out to skilled players so far. I copped a lot of flak from TLers for my earlier comments about WCS and it's unfairness towards high level Koreans but I still stand by my comments.
Right now though, I'm quite happy to wait and see how things play out. A lot of good Koreans, albeit currently in Code B or dropped out of Code A to compete were given direct seeds. In my opinion this will ensure WCS America and Europe to retain a high level from the beginning and should theoretically over time achieve its goals.
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On April 08 2013 17:22 FireMonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 16:44 freakhill wrote:On April 08 2013 14:37 FireMonkey wrote:
it's what people want to see, it's a race war, they want to see their favourite white guy supressing their korean invaders. Well... no... just no. This opinion is... trollish at best? it's fact, look at the statistics, all the tourneys featured koreans and non koreans, all get signifigantly more views than solely korean tournaments, code s gets ~20-30k views average, mlg got 80k views at one point. When huk and stephano were in code s last season, those particular nights got more views than the others...because people want to see the white guy taking home the glory, going to korean lands and metaphorically stealing their home's prize. It's an irony thing because in sc2 scene white people are the minority so as i said more fuel for the race war.
It's a fact that foreign audience wants to see foreigners compete with Koreans, not that they do so because some hypothetical "war against korean invaders"...
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Because esports is a charity and it's run like one
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SC2 is a not a sport until someone can dominate at it. We want to see someone win over and over. no one cares about lower leagues.
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Right now it isn't about beating the Koreans. It is about creating an environment that has the backing to train foreigners to compete with Koreans.
Right now, a sponsor will look at the tournament results for an American Starcraft player and go, "well he got to the top 32 of a major tournament but that isn't winning." Top 32 sucks in comparison to top 8 or top 4 much less winning it. Korea is the only place where progaming is a NORMAL thing in society. The perception of gaming in Korea is a business, while in America it is the cause of school shootings.
The goal of this whole ordeal is to allow some foreigners to actually win major tournaments and get the sponsorships they need to live and breathe Starcraft. A foreigner can't live off of Starcraft at the moment, but providing someone a stable income and housing, they can and will be just as good as the Koreans because they will have the time and practice regiment they need to achieve it. There is nothing a Korean can do that any other striving eSport gamer can learn to do. They just need the opportunity to learn.
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EPT
