EPTNow korean teams, don't get paid quite as handsomely. They have to earn their place in the SC2 world, That is why the difference is skill is so high. Koreans who come to america for easy money eventually fall off the radar and die out. Look at Revival...Amazing zerg player...Joins EG, sucks ass, doesn't practice as hard as he used to...and thats it for him.
Why do we want foreigners to compete with koreans? - Page 19
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HuKPOWA
United States1604 Posts
Now korean teams, don't get paid quite as handsomely. They have to earn their place in the SC2 world, That is why the difference is skill is so high. Koreans who come to america for easy money eventually fall off the radar and die out. Look at Revival...Amazing zerg player...Joins EG, sucks ass, doesn't practice as hard as he used to...and thats it for him. | ||
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Gr33d
Germany423 Posts
On April 07 2013 01:56 HuKPOWA wrote: No, the problem with the foreigners is...for example...Team EG: Paying their players a lot of money for almost no results. If i was in EG...and i was getting paid a HUGE salary like idra was...id sit around all ay too and not get better...u get paid the same no mater what... Now korean teams, don't get paid quite as handsomely. They have to earn their place in the SC2 world, That is why the difference is skill is so high. Koreans who come to america for easy money eventually fall off the radar and die out. Look at Revival...Amazing zerg player...Joins EG, sucks ass, doesn't practice as hard as he used to...and thats it for him. Their result are the several thousand viewers on the stream, promoting the sponsors. Also, why should they live in a teamhouse in korea? For the food and the bunkbeds? Maybe thats enough for korean teens, but if you grow up in america or europa you are used to something better. Hell, the room I had during my service in the army had more space than the rooms I see in some teamhouse videos. Add to that the feeling of living far from friends and family, next to noone seems to speak english and its expensive. If I would be an american or european new player, I would like REGIONAL tournaments. Foreign teams (or tournament organisators) flying around koreans to grab the prize money is just stupid. For global events, sure. But not for an american championship. I could meet all the americans on the ladder and get better by playing against them, this only works until you reached a certain skillcap. Now I visit a tournament, get paired against some GSL pro from korea in the first round and I'm out. Yay. I'm sure many local people will choose this way now. Oh wait, in the long run they will just switch to a game that offers more to the local scene. Esport growth does not matter in korea. It grows (and matters financially) in the "west". If every tournament gets turned into a gsl, you will not get 60k viewers (let alone more). You'll get maybe 30k. (Exceptions apply to huge fan favourites, like MC/MKP, or Flash, to name a few). | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
On April 07 2013 00:49 mcc wrote: And how did they get to that point ? By having time to develop that infrastructure. They did not have to exclude others as there were no "others" when they were developing their scene. Frankly I think the issue is not so much the whole foreign scene, more NA scene. EU scene seems to have enough infrastructure in place to possibly survive. NA one is getting less and less competitive as time goes on. I don't necessarily agree with what you say. There are serveral NA top players that do well and practise hard. Just because some of the more famous or "older school" players aren't doing well (like catz for example) doesn't mean that NA is doomed. It just means tht some of the bigger profile players aren't putting as much effort and dedication into it as say Scarlet. I think the biggest part of the problem for people outside of korea is that they play the game with pre concieved notions. A korean will do what needs to be done, he will play the game in whatever way yields him a win. A foreigner is more likely to latch on to a style and call that a "better way to play". This makes koreans more free flowing and makes them find better ways quicker. And its not about the top pros only having this attitude. It's about an entire ladder conforming to these made up ideas of what is good and bad. | ||
Falling
Canada11349 Posts
On April 07 2013 01:33 dacimvrl wrote: well, there are different types of fans, and thus people watch different things for different reasons; some people prefer action, others enjoy comedy. Idra's stream is like a comedy in a sense - people watch Idra, because he throws fits like a kid and cusses people out. If he never did that, nobody would even watch his stream. Well that's just the point. There ARE fans who watch all these foreign streams even though they aren't the 'best possible play.' So if there was a tourney where all these foreigners that have big stream followings and they had a reasonable shot at taking first, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume these very same fans would probably come along for the ride? More so if it was a large concentration of these popular foreigners? I know I would. Maybe it wouldn't draw in as many people as a MLG, but if they budgeted accordingly, it could be reasonably successful. Yeah, you won't get all the 'I only want to see the best possible play.' But you would never get them anyways- they would be fine if 100% of the tournament worldwide became 100% Koreans including open brackets. If it was best possible play. They're not your target audience. Ignore 'em. | ||
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Benjamin99
4176 Posts
On April 07 2013 02:55 Falling wrote: Well that's just the point. There ARE fans who watch all these foreign streams even though they aren't the 'best possible play.' So if there was a tourney where all these foreigners that have big stream followings and they had a reasonable shot at taking first, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume these very same fans would probably come along for the ride? More so if it was a large concentration of these popular foreigners? I know I would. Maybe it wouldn't draw in as many people as a MLG, but if they budgeted accordingly, it could be reasonably successful. Yeah, you won't get all the 'I only want to see the best possible play.' But you would never get them anyways- they would be fine if 100% of the tournament worldwide became 100% Koreans including open brackets. If it was best possible play. They're not your target audience. Ignore 'em. 130K saw EU WCS at a time where tournament stream numbers was down. It was one of the highest watched tournaments of the year. So yea ill say there is a huge market On April 07 2013 02:58 Dazed_Spy wrote: Any claim that people wouldnt watch an American only Tourny or a French only [etc] is shot down by regional and collegial leagues in sports. People arent just interested in the highest level of play. In fact, the people who watch sports for the high quality of play, over the cheering of a team, individual player, or a general storyline, are in the huge minority. I dont even watch sc2 games that arent of players I like or dont comport to a storyline. It doesnt matter how good it is, I just dont care. Feel exactly the same as you. I watch where the players I am are fan of is playing | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
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RPR_Tempest
Australia7798 Posts
tgun vs MaFia at WCS Oceania. Game 3. One of the best games I have ever seen in my life. Not because of the level of play (although that was quite good) but simply because I was so into it because I wanted tgun to win so, so badly. Why do I want foreigners to take on Koreans? Why do I like Australians battling international competition? Because I get great enjoyment and enjoy the games more because the result MATTERS TO ME. I love the underdog foreigners, and there's a sense of pride when any non-Korean manages to beat one. That's how StarCraft has always worked. That is how StarCraft will continue to work. | ||
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Shousan
Mexico92 Posts
Why does Anna Kournikova got a lot of recognition while doing nothing in tennis? Marketable attributes, people payed a lot to see her play just because of her looks, and because they read about her or saw her on any kind of media. Why does IdrA's stream mantains with 8k viewers even if he's just eating a sandwich? People love that because it's easy to relate to. Why does reddit looks like Perez Hilton of Starcraft? Same reasons. Economic stability doesn't really depend on just results. You need to start creating infrastructure for foreign to start competing head to head with most koreans, it's not a defeatist attitude, it's a pretty down to earth one, and you can also see it within the foreign scene, there are many other teams that remain virtually unknown (compared to other reknown foreign teams) because their option is to stand out in a pool of higher level foreign and koreans, and even if they train 12+ hours a day, they WILL NOT get to the top anytime soon since those 12+ hours don't include practice with the best players in the world, koreans have that. The way to rise the bar is to give incentives to foreigns (a better chance to place high in a regional tournament), otherwise you're hoping to spend years of training in a sub par environment just to eventually face a top korean in a tournament and get demolished, as a progamer this has to be really frustrating. By creating regional tournaments you can give more exposure, give a reason for lower players to work towards winning those leagues and hopefully create the motivation required to step it up and start working towards winning vs koreans. | ||
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MountainDewJunkie
United States10341 Posts
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BirdKiller
United States428 Posts
Who's going to do that just so that non-Koreans and foreigners can have a little bit more money in their pockets for their subpar skills and competitiveness? Who's going to do that just so foreign viewers can root for foreigners winning something while knowing that the tournament was designed as so? For tournaments, viewer counts and attracting sponsors should be, and is, a higher priority than just satisfying a portion of this community wanting a foreigner to win...something. | ||
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Noobity
United States871 Posts
On April 07 2013 03:22 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Some good scapegoating going on. Foreigners can't compete with Koreans --> Koreans' fault :| I don't see any of that going on. I see people talking about why they want to see foreigners play vs Koreans, and people that want to see the "best possible games" talking about why they want to see just that regardless of who it is. My answer has been that I'm not interested in Koreans all the time because I want to care about the players which tends to mean that the players I'm watching need to be interesting and have personality. That's not placing blame on the Koreans, that's simply stating what I prefer. That being said, I have no problem with a Korean like MC or Losira/Kangho dominating a foreign tournament because I am emotionally attached to them (MC is interesting as shit, Losira/Kangho talks to me in tweets sometimes). I want them to win, I want them to be successful. It would be like a guy from my school playing on the worst team in the NFL. I like the dude, I want him to play and win, even if he was the 4th string backup kicker. On April 07 2013 03:32 BirdKiller wrote: So which major tournament is first going to take the risk of excluding/segregating Koreans at the cost of outrage from a large segment of the community, alienating Koreans, and uncertainty in how it influences viewer counts? Who's going to do that just so that non-Koreans and foreigners can have a little bit more money in their pockets for their subpar skills and competitiveness? Who's going to do that just so foreign viewers can root for foreigners winning something while knowing that the tournament was designed as so? For tournaments, viewer counts and attracting sponsors should be, and is, a higher priority than just satisfying a portion of this community wanting a foreigner to win...something. I think you underestimate the numbers here. I'd put money on viewership for foreigners being higher than viewership for "the best possible play". and think that a tournament who put on a mainly foreigner event (maybe a couple Koreans) would do considerably better with viewer counts and sponsors than the current norm. And to answer your first question, I think MLG is going to be glad to put on NA events that are mostly foreigner, with the few Koreans that decide to come over to NA. I think if it was an only NA resident tournament, it would still do phenomenally well. I think they'll be pleased with the money. | ||
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rename
Estonia329 Posts
On April 07 2013 00:55 mcc wrote: Learn to read, I never said anything that you claim I said. I said the local leagues are present in all countries where the scene for the particular sport is big enough and that the purpose is to get young players into the game. I said nothing about number of people viewing those small leagues. That was different point. Most people watching ManU/Arsenal games do not watch for the quality of play but because it is "their" team. And more people watch nation vs nation games than ManU/Arsenal vs whoever games. Sorry, i was basically replying to "In any popular sport rooting for local/national players, favourite teams always trumps the quality of play." which just stops being true at some point when the skill disparity becomes gigantic. For example people over here watch UEFA way more compared to domestic leagues. Local leagues are nice and necessary, but others can fill the role ( WCG does somethat, NASL switches back?). If WCS was completely locked based on your nationality then Stephano/Demuslim + many other europeans would also have to go to europe. Naniwa/Huk would have to return home. Many people who are overseas for non-starcraft reasons could not participate at all. The skill difference between different regions would become even larger and it would be even harder for player from NA to become the one of the best in the world. | ||
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Luepert
United States1933 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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BirdKiller
United States428 Posts
On April 07 2013 03:51 Noobity wrote: I don't see any of that going on. I see people talking about why they want to see foreigners play vs Koreans, and people that want to see the "best possible games" talking about why they want to see just that regardless of who it is. My answer has been that I'm not interested in Koreans all the time because I want to care about the players which tends to mean that the players I'm watching need to be interesting and have personality. That's not placing blame on the Koreans, that's simply stating what I prefer. That being said, I have no problem with a Korean like MC or Losira/Kangho dominating a foreign tournament because I am emotionally attached to them (MC is interesting as shit, Losira/Kangho talks to me in tweets sometimes). I want them to win, I want them to be successful. It would be like a guy from my school playing on the worst team in the NFL. I like the dude, I want him to play and win, even if he was the 4th string backup kicker. I think you underestimate the numbers here. I'd put money on viewership for foreigners being higher than viewership for "the best possible play". and think that a tournament who put on a mainly foreigner event (maybe a couple Koreans) would do considerably better with viewer counts and sponsors than the current norm. And to answer your first question, I think MLG is going to be glad to put on NA events that are mostly foreigner, with the few Koreans that decide to come over to NA. I think if it was an only NA resident tournament, it would still do phenomenally well. I think they'll be pleased with the money. Your answer to the question is very lacking. To say "I think...", "I'd put money on....", "and think that a tournament...", "I think if it was only an...." doesn't provide any better picture to the risk that major tournaments face with this question. Your answer and response is generic and a blanket statement of "Excluding Koreans will be better for tournaments to attract more viewers" without providing any details or explanations behind it. You only pointed out the obvious positive outcome of the risk, but didn't mention if it was feasible or probable compared to losing viewers and Korean participation in future events. To be specific, explain that I somehow "underestimate the numbers..." here? | ||
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achan1058
1091 Posts
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Striborg
United States47 Posts
I'd watch the shit out an NA only tournament, and I'll continue watching the shit out of GSL and Proleague. | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
But that doesn't mean we can't have regional/national competissions. Here in germany and many EU countries we have the EPS /thanks ESL!!!!!) and I love watching it and I hope it never dies. Just like the premier league or the Bundesliga in football. Now if koreans move to germany to compete in EPS that's fine too, of course. Just like foreigners competing in GSL. | ||
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zefreak
United States2731 Posts
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Gentso
United States2218 Posts
On a side note, it's embarrassing that it's been so long and foreigners still can't compete. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On April 07 2013 04:37 zefreak wrote: How about people take the time to learn about a foreign culture that has a vibrant e-sports culture and a deep history of Starcraft, then maybe they would be interested in the individual koreans that make up the 'faceless korean' group. I understand casual sports fans and the need to cheer for your tribe and overcome the dreaded 'foreigner'. It still disgusts me, it's the worst elements of our history justified by its entertainment value. Yeah, let's blame the viewers for a lack of good translated content. Real smart. Wanna know who isn't scene as a "faceless korean"? The ones that speak english, the ones with well-translated interviews, the ones with media released about them. But clearly it's the fans' fault for not taking the time to learn Korean and troll through message boards and twitter. And yeah, cultural identity is the worst elements of our history. Not like it's the backbone for society, civilization, charity... | ||
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