|
In this thread I will adress the Issues I have with people trying to come with solutions to make the scene better for Eu and Na.
Basically lately I don't really agree with all the ideas being throwen around to make it better for the foreign players. It seems like a lot of people are looking at results and want to change the way the outcome is to the way the koreans are dominating.
First of all I will adress what Catz had to say in Sotg. He basically said that he would like some American tournaments to be only played by American's. The reason was that for people coming to starcraft, they see how they can win money at tournaments. Instead of koreans taking wins at every tournament they compete in.
His philosophy is that if players could see tournaments they can win in, they are more motivated to play and it will help the overall growth of Sc2 in the west. The more players from the west are practicing hard for a tournament, the higher the level of play will become in the west.
Now this idea sounds really good in theory, here are some reasons why I don't think it will work. The reason a lot of people are watching a Dreamhack and a MLG is because of the quality of games, and the level of play they can expect at those tournaments. People like to see how their foreigners compare against the big guns out of Korea. The tournament is raised in value because they know that their tournament is an good environment to rate the players competing in it.
I don't think people should be practicing to win tournaments, but practice to become one of the best players in the world. And that means you need to see the reality of it. You can only become better by competing against better players. The will to perform is there when your opponents have a sick amount of skill.
The second idea I would like to adress is the WCS. Now with the WCS having 5 players from Eu and 5 players from Na competing in an offlne tournament. This means either Koreans come here to dominate, or we have an unbalanced tournament where the difference in level of skill between the good and the best players is huge.
This is what I think is the best solutions, in WCS 13 players are seeded from Korea and 2 players from EU and 1 player from NA. This means it is balanced between the regions compared to their skill. And also for Koreans not an handicap, and the need to fly over to compete.
Of course if more progammers arise in one area let's take NA for example more seeds are awarded to them.
This is what is being done in football(soccer) for years. The better countries get more teams seeded and wildcards given in the Champions League versus the lesser countries. It will be stupid to have from every country 2 teams, that means that Poland and England have for instance the same amount of teams. This will decrease the level of the Champions League, compared to what it is now. And an English competition(premier league) will be the grade to compare.
WCS won't be the tournament to decide who is the best, but a GSL and OGN will.
|
What fun is it if it's a top 8 Korean placing at a tournament like DreamHack? Some people want entertainment, they want the story of a foreigner beating a Korean, others want the best gameplay, which is Korean vs Korean. I'm in favor of the best games that can be played.
|
How many of these threads do we have? What's new about this one? I want to create a thread too should I take the same old topic and be the 57673th to right something about it?
Sorry but nothing new here ... some people want the best games, others want to watch players they can relate to more easily ... enough said!
|
Double post mistake ... sry
|
Triple post mistake ...
>>> POSTING SPREE !!!!
|
This is what I think is the best solutions, in WCS 13 players are seeded from Korea and 2 players from EU and 1 player from NA. This means it is balanced between the regions compared to their skill. And also for Koreans not an handicap, and the need to fly over to compete.
This is a troll post i think. I mean I cant really name more than 2 good europeans who can compete with the best koreans, and i cant name a single NA player that can but still, people want to see hometown favorites dude.
|
On April 04 2013 17:45 LiLSighKoh wrote:
What fun is it if it's a top 8 Korean placing at a tournament like DreamHack? Some people want entertainment, they want the story of a foreigner beating a Korean, others want the best gameplay, which is Korean vs Korean. I'm in favor of the best games that can be played.
Well it is important to see the reality of it, knowing our Western players are inferior. If Naniwa will get to the last 5 of an Dreamhack I will still be proud as fuck and seeing it as an big achievment. And i don't mind koreans are left at the last 8. They also provide the games we want to see.
|
I don't think your going to get foreigners wanting to compete to be the best overnight. You need to actually give them competition that's realistic first before they dedicate their hours and paychecks towards an improbable pay day. Lets put it this way: if your a progamer paying for your life, its a stupid risk to play with practice partners and hash out strategies, analyze replays, and stop streaming to keep strategies a secret, all for the effort of winning the mlg or gsl. People don't want to watch you deconstruct your replays on a daily base and hash out perfect timings, play the same matchup and the same strategy (bunker rush 100 times), and furthermore, you probably don't want to stream that stuff in order to give an edge.
Rather, your probably going to just try and place top 16 or top 32 so your name is still relevant, and make your buck off streaming and staying on the team.
|
don't say sorry, i'm sure you are doubling in purpose to imitate them by doing same post again and again :D
|
Even boxing has weight classes.
|
On April 04 2013 17:49 mrRoflpwn wrote:Show nested quote +This is what I think is the best solutions, in WCS 13 players are seeded from Korea and 2 players from EU and 1 player from NA. This means it is balanced between the regions compared to their skill. And also for Koreans not an handicap, and the need to fly over to compete. This is a troll post i think. I mean I cant really name more than 2 good europeans who can compete with the best koreans, and i cant name a single NA player that can but still, people want to see hometown favorites dude.
Well we have an good tournament with foreigners competing before the WCS. And I don't see why that will be a troll post?
|
I'm sorry, I don't really care what the nationality of awesome players is - as long as I see them do awesome things. With that in mind, the WCS system they introduced, where anyone can 'farm' points for the WCS on any region server, seems perfectly fine to me.
Nationalisation of sports is actually a root cause of feeling hostility towards another nationality, while I feel that even though sports such as soccer attract a larger audience in the lower social layers of each nation, Esports shouldn't take that direction at all.
Of course I know that the facilities SK offers to it's players is superior to those in NA and EU, but you won't be 'growing' the facilities in NA and EU by not letting those players compete with each other anymore at all on major events.
On top of that, your statement that we 'need' national tournaments leaves me to believe that you don't even know of the existence of the one we have right here in the netherlands. The DSCL (Dutch Starcraft League). It has a few players from germany, but not a single Korean. If you don't enjoy watching awesome players and just want to see people who are only european or american win, watch those kind of tournaments.
WCS won't be the tournament to decide who is the best, but a GSL and OGN will.
I don't really understand what you mean here. GSL and OGN will be awarding some points for the WCS, and Koreans can play in any region, including europe and america to farm points for WCS. Why then are these tournaments supposedly more important? Do you understand the new system at all? Explain it to me please, because maybe I don't understand it or your interpretation of them.
|
On April 04 2013 17:49 norlock wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 17:45 LiLSighKoh wrote:
What fun is it if it's a top 8 Korean placing at a tournament like DreamHack? Some people want entertainment, they want the story of a foreigner beating a Korean, others want the best gameplay, which is Korean vs Korean. I'm in favor of the best games that can be played. Well it is important to see the reality of it, knowing our Western players are inferior. If Naniwa will get to the last 5 of an Dreamhack I will still be proud as fuck and seeing it as an big achievment. And i don't mind koreans are left at the last 8. They also provide the games we want to see.
I don't have anything against koreans but I think it should be the opposite. The two foreigners would probably always be Stephano+random foreigner GM level and they get knocked out in the first round. The skill gap seems to be pretty high now and I have no idea how to solve this XD
|
You want to talk about Professional Sports for comparison? Anyone on a pro sport team gets paid their salary, regardless of their teams results. They get full travel expenses paid for. They are allowed (and can get) personal sponsorships that can be worth the equivalent of their salaries.
Don't want to compare to a team sport? Okay then, losing in the first round of a Tennis Major tournament gives you $20,000. How about Golf? 70th place can earn you $10k.
|
On April 04 2013 17:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:
You want to talk about Professional Sports for comparison? Anyone on a pro sport team gets paid their salary, regardless of their teams results. They get full travel expenses paid for. They are allowed (and can get) personal sponsorships that can be worth the equivalent of their salaries.
Don't want to compare to a team sport? Okay then, losing in the first round of a Tennis Major tournament gives you $20,000. How about Golf? 70th place can earn you $10k.
You do know that the reason why korean player leave their korean team for an foreign team is because of the salary?
|
On April 04 2013 17:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:
You want to talk about Professional Sports for comparison? Anyone on a pro sport team gets paid their salary, regardless of their teams results. They get full travel expenses paid for. They are allowed (and can get) personal sponsorships that can be worth the equivalent of their salaries.
Don't want to compare to a team sport? Okay then, losing in the first round of a Tennis Major tournament gives you $20,000. How about Golf? 70th place can earn you $10k.
Ofcourse completely ignoring the fact that all those professionals have worked hard and gave up on other things to get where they are now. Do you really believe its an NA/EU problem that good players don't arise? Do you think sallary is the problem? I will tell you that Korean amateurs and practice partners do pay to live in team houses and practice there. Its not like Koreans would always earn much.
The problem really is the lack of teams and team houses / training environment. Ofcourse if you have to worry about paying rent and food you are not going anywhere and you better don't take your chances at being a progamer, but if you have a team to back you up like EG / Teamliquid you potentially CAN have the right environment and be just as good. Ofcourse according to your region. For an instance, I don't believe a NA player could ever reach Korean level on NA, just because if he's the best on that server, he's missing the players to practice with that would increase his level.
|
I really got spoiled by Koreans, I just like to see the best possible games.
The last foreign game I watched was Thorzain v Killer... and well... never ever again.. it was so bad.
If foreigners really want more money/exposure they just need to step it up
|
On April 04 2013 17:58 norlock wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 17:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:
You want to talk about Professional Sports for comparison? Anyone on a pro sport team gets paid their salary, regardless of their teams results. They get full travel expenses paid for. They are allowed (and can get) personal sponsorships that can be worth the equivalent of their salaries.
Don't want to compare to a team sport? Okay then, losing in the first round of a Tennis Major tournament gives you $20,000. How about Golf? 70th place can earn you $10k. You do know that the reason why korean player leave their korean team for an foreign team is because of the salary?
I think you missed the entire point of my post. Every single Pro Sport rewards people who reach the minimum qualifications. If you can get through the door, you have a legitimate career.
SC2 is no where near that point. You have the top 20 yearly earnings that can justify playing SC2 instead of flipping burgers, and everyone else that's either flat broke or whoring themselves out for hundreds of hours on Twitch.
People keep ranting that Koreans should get all the money because Koreans are the best, and that everyone else should aspire to be as good as them. What happens in reality? If there is no money to be made outside of Korea, everyone simply packs up and leaves...or never even exists. Brood War proved that; having a massive scene in a single nation did absolutely nothing to foster the industry elsewhere.
If you want the foreign scene to be competitive, the money has to be there first.
|
On April 04 2013 18:00 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 17:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:
You want to talk about Professional Sports for comparison? Anyone on a pro sport team gets paid their salary, regardless of their teams results. They get full travel expenses paid for. They are allowed (and can get) personal sponsorships that can be worth the equivalent of their salaries.
Don't want to compare to a team sport? Okay then, losing in the first round of a Tennis Major tournament gives you $20,000. How about Golf? 70th place can earn you $10k. Ofcourse completely ignoring the fact that all those professionals have worked hard and gave up on other things to get where they are now. Do you really believe its an NA/EU problem that good players don't arise? Do you think sallary is the problem? I will tell you that Korean amateurs and practice partners do pay to live in team houses and practice there. Its not like Koreans would always earn much. The problem really is the lack of teams and team houses / training environment. Ofcourse if you have to worry about paying rent and food you are not going anywhere and you better don't take your chances at being a progamer, but if you have a team to back you up like EG / Teamliquid you potentially CAN have the right environment and be just as good. Ofcourse according to your region. For an instance, I don't believe a NA player could ever reach Korean level on NA, just because if he's the best on that server, he's missing the players to practice with that would increase his level.
You're not going to get the teams, teamhouses and thus training environment in places other than Korea, if there isnt a stable league that they can compete in, outside of Korea. Thats why so many people like Catz, Incontrol, etc, are wanting a region specific league.
|
What? I'm not sure why people are against the idea of koreans competing in foreign tournaments. They spent countless hours practicing to polish their strategies and mechanics. They deserve to be at the top because of this perseverance and effort and most importantly, they provide us with great games. Contrast this to a lot of NA players, more notably the EG team, their practice regime is half-assed and as exeZerg above me pointed out, the games they've been producing have been terrible and has shown how big the skill gap really is. If we were to create a tournament solely for Foreigners, the skill ceiling will be reduced and i doubt we'll see many intense back and forth games we've been watching lately. Competitions should be designed to recognise ability, not encourage mediocrity and complacency we've been seeing in foreign teams (EG).
|
On April 04 2013 18:11 Micromnky wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 18:00 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 04 2013 17:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:
You want to talk about Professional Sports for comparison? Anyone on a pro sport team gets paid their salary, regardless of their teams results. They get full travel expenses paid for. They are allowed (and can get) personal sponsorships that can be worth the equivalent of their salaries.
Don't want to compare to a team sport? Okay then, losing in the first round of a Tennis Major tournament gives you $20,000. How about Golf? 70th place can earn you $10k. Ofcourse completely ignoring the fact that all those professionals have worked hard and gave up on other things to get where they are now. Do you really believe its an NA/EU problem that good players don't arise? Do you think sallary is the problem? I will tell you that Korean amateurs and practice partners do pay to live in team houses and practice there. Its not like Koreans would always earn much. The problem really is the lack of teams and team houses / training environment. Ofcourse if you have to worry about paying rent and food you are not going anywhere and you better don't take your chances at being a progamer, but if you have a team to back you up like EG / Teamliquid you potentially CAN have the right environment and be just as good. Ofcourse according to your region. For an instance, I don't believe a NA player could ever reach Korean level on NA, just because if he's the best on that server, he's missing the players to practice with that would increase his level. You're not going to get the teams, teamhouses and thus training environment in places other than Korea, if there isnt a stable league that they can compete in, outside of Korea. Thats why so many people like Catz, Incontrol, etc, are wanting a region specific league.
We can keep going in circles. You had NASL which was not really packed with Koreans but NA/EU people. Was it a huge success? I don't really know about it. A regional league would have a chance to be build up if money is present and money will only be given if there is interest. Interest though comes from competition and the best play possible. Do you really think putting money into a scene that is not on a level that is worthy watching would attract viewers? Certainly not or not worth the investment. EG does have a team hose, Axiom does have a teamhouse. Maybe the Koreans do have a league they can compete in, because they did build their scene beforehand and over a time which the foreign scene missed out on.
I'm not saying that its a bad thing to build up a foreign scene and leagues that are region locked but if you make one, make it like the GSL. Excluding a nation is NEVER a good thing, but even if you allow Koreans I think you are right that a region locked league would raise the level of play. The problem now is finding someone who is willing to put money into it to raise the league and with it the scene.
In the end it doesn't really matter if 1-2 players not from the region win it. The chance alone to make a living off it will probably enough to attract players. That being said, the risk stays the same. In Korea you have team houses you can pay acertain amount and you have a place to live and food just like in MoW - the risk itself still says outside of Korea.
If someone would just host houses and provide food/shelter for a certain amount of money, now that would be a good thing do to. I think paying ~200$ - 300$ is affordable and no big risk if you want to give it a shot and live your dream. You can work to have 200-300$ / month and spend the rest working on your career.... well. Thats it from me :D
Take EG for example; I think they got the sponsors and money and are excellent at promotion: Go rent a big house and let people live/train there work a certain amount of money. You provide the food / internet / computers. You don't need to make profit of it, just covering your costs... I think it would be very possible and a really good promotion AND it would raise the scene, because besides the fact that money ATTRACTS people, the RISK you have to take does SCARE them away. If you can decide to try for 6 month, spending above mentioned fee but not taking any other risk beside that, maybe we will see more people actually trying because the risk is just a lot smaller
|
Please also factor in the numbers of viewers and people attending "LIVE" event especially for foreigners. With zero Korean players participate and the terrible skills set produced by NA only, i wondered who will want to host such event with minimum profits?
Korean's on foreign scene is there for a reason.
E-sports is not only about how good NA/EU vs KR. It's also about revenue and what the viewers want to see from world class players.
|
13 kors 2 eu 1 us seems super boring³
3-4 good koreans and alot average GOOD Players no one cares about and no foreigns we love and know ...
sry cant see one good piece on whole idea
|
On April 04 2013 18:16 Novacute wrote:
What? I'm not sure why people are against the idea of koreans competing in foreign tournaments. They spent countless hours practicing to polish their strategies and mechanics. They deserve to be at the top because of this perseverance and effort and most importantly, they provide us with great games. Contrast this to a lot of NA players, more notably the EG team, their practice regime is half-assed and as exeZerg above me pointed out, the games they've been producing have been terrible and has shown how big the skill gap really is. If we were to create a tournament solely for Foreigners, the skill ceiling will be reduced and i doubt we'll see many intense back and forth games we've been watching lately. Competitions should be designed to recognise ability, not encourage mediocrity and complacency we've been seeing in foreign teams (EG).
Yeah and another important thing to mention is that if we were to have foreign only tournaments, the foreigners would get even lazier.
They wouldn't have to compete with koreans anymore so their skill would reduce even further.
|
Foreigners are not competing with Koreans. They are getting raped by them.
|
Because its not fun to play against scrubs? Why did Dirk Nowitzki go to the NBA if he could just own all of European Basketball way easier?
You always want to play/beat the best! (or just make easy cash if you're american)
|
On April 04 2013 18:25 Netsky wrote:
Foreigners are not competing with Koreans. They are getting raped by them.
ㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋ!
Please watch your words. Incoming flames detected.
|
On April 04 2013 18:22 Kim Hyuna wrote:
Please also factor in the numbers of viewers and people attending "LIVE" event especially for foreigners. With zero Korean players participate and the terrible skills set produced by NA only, i wondered who will want to host such event with minimum profits?
Korean's on foreign scene is there for a reason.
E-sports is not only about how good NA/EU vs KR. It's also about revenue and what the viewers want to see from world class players.
us alone seems boring but i still think "no korean" tournaments would be great ...
SURE it SEEMS rassistic but its more like a tournament thats only for silver-platin does diamonds say" rassistic" ?
you can say no players "living in korea" would still make a handfull of koreans (polt etc) possibvle to play ...
yes i think "players not living in korea" tournaments would be the best !
|
On April 04 2013 18:26 CoR wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 18:22 Kim Hyuna wrote:
Please also factor in the numbers of viewers and people attending "LIVE" event especially for foreigners. With zero Korean players participate and the terrible skills set produced by NA only, i wondered who will want to host such event with minimum profits?
Korean's on foreign scene is there for a reason.
E-sports is not only about how good NA/EU vs KR. It's also about revenue and what the viewers want to see from world class players. us alone seems boring but i still think "no korean" tournaments would be great ... SURE it SEEMS rassistic but its more like a tournament thats only for silver-platin does diamonds say" rassistic" ? you can say no players "living in korea" would still make a handfull of koreans (polt etc) possibvle to play ... yes i think "players not living in korea" tournaments would be the best !
I think i need to rephrase my words. I mean, MAJOR events with zero Korean's will not benefits from it.
Small event tournament only specially for EU/NA, then... why not? Have you wondered why Korean's can't be bothered with small event and only the MAJOR ones?
|
On April 04 2013 18:20 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 18:11 Micromnky wrote:On April 04 2013 18:00 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 04 2013 17:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:
You want to talk about Professional Sports for comparison? Anyone on a pro sport team gets paid their salary, regardless of their teams results. They get full travel expenses paid for. They are allowed (and can get) personal sponsorships that can be worth the equivalent of their salaries.
Don't want to compare to a team sport? Okay then, losing in the first round of a Tennis Major tournament gives you $20,000. How about Golf? 70th place can earn you $10k. Ofcourse completely ignoring the fact that all those professionals have worked hard and gave up on other things to get where they are now. Do you really believe its an NA/EU problem that good players don't arise? Do you think sallary is the problem? I will tell you that Korean amateurs and practice partners do pay to live in team houses and practice there. Its not like Koreans would always earn much. The problem really is the lack of teams and team houses / training environment. Ofcourse if you have to worry about paying rent and food you are not going anywhere and you better don't take your chances at being a progamer, but if you have a team to back you up like EG / Teamliquid you potentially CAN have the right environment and be just as good. Ofcourse according to your region. For an instance, I don't believe a NA player could ever reach Korean level on NA, just because if he's the best on that server, he's missing the players to practice with that would increase his level. You're not going to get the teams, teamhouses and thus training environment in places other than Korea, if there isnt a stable league that they can compete in, outside of Korea. Thats why so many people like Catz, Incontrol, etc, are wanting a region specific league. We can keep going in circles. You had NASL which was not really packed with Koreans but NA/EU people. Was it a huge success? I don't really know about it. A regional league would have a chance to be build up if money is present and money will only be given if there is interest. Interest though comes from competition and the best play possible. Do you really think putting money into a scene that is not on a level that is worthy watching would attract viewers? Certainly not or not worth the investment. EG does have a team hose, Axiom does have a teamhouse. Maybe the Koreans do have a league they can compete in, because they did build their scene beforehand and over a time which the foreign scene missed out on. I'm not saying that its a bad thing to build up a foreign scene and leagues that are region locked but if you make one, make it like the GSL. Excluding a nation is NEVER a good thing, but even if you allow Koreans I think you are right that a region locked league would raise the level of play. The problem now is finding someone who is willing to put money into it to raise the league and with it the scene. In the end it doesn't really matter if 1-2 players not from the region win it. The chance alone to make a living off it will probably enough to attract players. That being said, the risk stays the same. In Korea you have team houses you can pay acertain amount and you have a place to live and food just like in MoW - the risk itself still says outside of Korea. If someone would just host houses and provide food/shelter for a certain amount of money, now that would be a good thing do to. I think paying ~200$ - 300$ is affordable and no big risk if you want to give it a shot and live your dream. You can work to have 200-300$ / month and spend the rest working on your career.... well. Thats it from me :D
Interest comes from more than just 'best possible play'. Not everything can be the tip-top best league...A lot of interest comes from watching people, teams, regions, grow and become better. Korean leagues didnt become the best out of chance, or luck, or because koreans in general have a better work/practice ethic. They've had the longest history of stable, long running leagues. Which as produced the amazing training and practice environments they have today.
|
On April 04 2013 18:26 CoR wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 18:22 Kim Hyuna wrote:
Please also factor in the numbers of viewers and people attending "LIVE" event especially for foreigners. With zero Korean players participate and the terrible skills set produced by NA only, i wondered who will want to host such event with minimum profits?
Korean's on foreign scene is there for a reason.
E-sports is not only about how good NA/EU vs KR. It's also about revenue and what the viewers want to see from world class players. us alone seems boring but i still think "no korean" tournaments would be great ... SURE it SEEMS rassistic but its more like a tournament thats only for silver-platin does diamonds say" rassistic" ? you can say no players "living in korea" would still make a handfull of koreans (polt etc) possibvle to play ... yes i think "players not living in korea" tournaments would be the best !
We can call the tournament 'Come get your free money here Polt'
|
if foreigners can't beat koreans they don't deserve to win anything
|
What i don't understand is why the people that only want to see korean players be so mad and vocal against the people(me included) that feel that some tournaments should be foreigner oriented.
You have the GSL, PL and GSTL and possibly more leagues incoming.. tournaments that i also see and follow and pay for them.
Don't we have the same right? I love to know who is the best NA player or best EU player.. i don't need to always see the same players since i follow them when they play at "home"
|
Well personally I didn't really expect it before koreans started coming to the west, but I enjoyed MLG more when it was mostly foreigners(though I could do without the technical issues that happened frequently back then). It is a sad fact and not something I am proud of, but I think it is just that I feel there is more of a story there.
About the quality of games on pro level, a top foreigner vs top foreigner is still high enough for me, I think quality of the games just goes down if there is a skill gap between the players, not if they are playing at 2100 ELO vs 2500.
|
On April 04 2013 18:10 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 17:58 norlock wrote:On April 04 2013 17:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:
You want to talk about Professional Sports for comparison? Anyone on a pro sport team gets paid their salary, regardless of their teams results. They get full travel expenses paid for. They are allowed (and can get) personal sponsorships that can be worth the equivalent of their salaries.
Don't want to compare to a team sport? Okay then, losing in the first round of a Tennis Major tournament gives you $20,000. How about Golf? 70th place can earn you $10k. You do know that the reason why korean player leave their korean team for an foreign team is because of the salary? I think you missed the entire point of my post. Every single Pro Sport rewards people who reach the minimum qualifications. If you can get through the door, you have a legitimate career. SC2 is no where near that point. You have the top 20 yearly earnings that can justify playing SC2 instead of flipping burgers, and everyone else that's either flat broke or whoring themselves out for hundreds of hours on Twitch. People keep ranting that Koreans should get all the money because Koreans are the best, and that everyone else should aspire to be as good as them. What happens in reality? If there is no money to be made outside of Korea, everyone simply packs up and leaves...or never even exists. Brood War proved that; having a massive scene in a single nation did absolutely nothing to foster the industry elsewhere. If you want the foreign scene to be competitive, the money has to be there first.
Completely agree with this.
|
On April 04 2013 18:36 shell wrote:
What i don't understand is why the people that only want to see korean players be so mad and vocal against the people(me included) that feel that some tournaments should be foreigner oriented.
You have the GSL, PL and GSTL and possibly more leagues incoming.. tournaments that i also see and follow and pay for them.
Don't we have the same right? I love to know who is the best NA player or best EU player.. i don't need to always see the same players since i follow them when they play at "home"
On April 04 2013 18:40 haffy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 18:10 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 04 2013 17:58 norlock wrote:On April 04 2013 17:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:
You want to talk about Professional Sports for comparison? Anyone on a pro sport team gets paid their salary, regardless of their teams results. They get full travel expenses paid for. They are allowed (and can get) personal sponsorships that can be worth the equivalent of their salaries.
Don't want to compare to a team sport? Okay then, losing in the first round of a Tennis Major tournament gives you $20,000. How about Golf? 70th place can earn you $10k. You do know that the reason why korean player leave their korean team for an foreign team is because of the salary? I think you missed the entire point of my post. Every single Pro Sport rewards people who reach the minimum qualifications. If you can get through the door, you have a legitimate career. SC2 is no where near that point. You have the top 20 yearly earnings that can justify playing SC2 instead of flipping burgers, and everyone else that's either flat broke or whoring themselves out for hundreds of hours on Twitch. People keep ranting that Koreans should get all the money because Koreans are the best, and that everyone else should aspire to be as good as them. What happens in reality? If there is no money to be made outside of Korea, everyone simply packs up and leaves...or never even exists. Brood War proved that; having a massive scene in a single nation did absolutely nothing to foster the industry elsewhere. If you want the foreign scene to be competitive, the money has to be there first. Completely agree with this.
Exactly this. I love GSL. I regularly stay up to ridiculous hours of the morning, local time, to watch Proleague live.
But I'd love to see things like this happening in NA and EU as well.
And I feel if they were to happen, then we'd see the overall skill, money, interest, amount of teams, and again, skill, of NA and EU players rise.
|
On April 04 2013 18:29 Micromnky wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 18:20 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 04 2013 18:11 Micromnky wrote:On April 04 2013 18:00 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 04 2013 17:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:
You want to talk about Professional Sports for comparison? Anyone on a pro sport team gets paid their salary, regardless of their teams results. They get full travel expenses paid for. They are allowed (and can get) personal sponsorships that can be worth the equivalent of their salaries.
Don't want to compare to a team sport? Okay then, losing in the first round of a Tennis Major tournament gives you $20,000. How about Golf? 70th place can earn you $10k. Ofcourse completely ignoring the fact that all those professionals have worked hard and gave up on other things to get where they are now. Do you really believe its an NA/EU problem that good players don't arise? Do you think sallary is the problem? I will tell you that Korean amateurs and practice partners do pay to live in team houses and practice there. Its not like Koreans would always earn much. The problem really is the lack of teams and team houses / training environment. Ofcourse if you have to worry about paying rent and food you are not going anywhere and you better don't take your chances at being a progamer, but if you have a team to back you up like EG / Teamliquid you potentially CAN have the right environment and be just as good. Ofcourse according to your region. For an instance, I don't believe a NA player could ever reach Korean level on NA, just because if he's the best on that server, he's missing the players to practice with that would increase his level. You're not going to get the teams, teamhouses and thus training environment in places other than Korea, if there isnt a stable league that they can compete in, outside of Korea. Thats why so many people like Catz, Incontrol, etc, are wanting a region specific league. We can keep going in circles. You had NASL which was not really packed with Koreans but NA/EU people. Was it a huge success? I don't really know about it. A regional league would have a chance to be build up if money is present and money will only be given if there is interest. Interest though comes from competition and the best play possible. Do you really think putting money into a scene that is not on a level that is worthy watching would attract viewers? Certainly not or not worth the investment. EG does have a team hose, Axiom does have a teamhouse. Maybe the Koreans do have a league they can compete in, because they did build their scene beforehand and over a time which the foreign scene missed out on. I'm not saying that its a bad thing to build up a foreign scene and leagues that are region locked but if you make one, make it like the GSL. Excluding a nation is NEVER a good thing, but even if you allow Koreans I think you are right that a region locked league would raise the level of play. The problem now is finding someone who is willing to put money into it to raise the league and with it the scene. In the end it doesn't really matter if 1-2 players not from the region win it. The chance alone to make a living off it will probably enough to attract players. That being said, the risk stays the same. In Korea you have team houses you can pay acertain amount and you have a place to live and food just like in MoW - the risk itself still says outside of Korea. If someone would just host houses and provide food/shelter for a certain amount of money, now that would be a good thing do to. I think paying ~200$ - 300$ is affordable and no big risk if you want to give it a shot and live your dream. You can work to have 200-300$ / month and spend the rest working on your career.... well. Thats it from me :D Interest comes from more than just 'best possible play'. Not everything can be the tip-top best league...A lot of interest comes from watching people, teams, regions, grow and become better. Korean leagues didnt become the best out of chance, or luck, or because koreans in general have a better work/practice ethic. They've had the longest history of stable, long running leagues. Which as produced the amazing training and practice environments they have today.
I didn't argue your point but I'm saying that even if you have those leagues the risk of being a progamer is high, because you most likely (especially rising players) cannot sustain themselves. Thats why I made the suggestion of raising those houses that provide food/shelter for a certain price. It does minimize the risk. Pair that with a region-locked league (not exluding any nation I would say, just like GSL) and you will have a rising scene and rising interest. I think you don't talk about a huge price money league to begin with, because no one would put insane amounts of money into the scene without having the biggest interest in their competition possible.
|
On April 04 2013 18:49 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 18:29 Micromnky wrote:On April 04 2013 18:20 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 04 2013 18:11 Micromnky wrote:On April 04 2013 18:00 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 04 2013 17:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:
You want to talk about Professional Sports for comparison? Anyone on a pro sport team gets paid their salary, regardless of their teams results. They get full travel expenses paid for. They are allowed (and can get) personal sponsorships that can be worth the equivalent of their salaries.
Don't want to compare to a team sport? Okay then, losing in the first round of a Tennis Major tournament gives you $20,000. How about Golf? 70th place can earn you $10k. Ofcourse completely ignoring the fact that all those professionals have worked hard and gave up on other things to get where they are now. Do you really believe its an NA/EU problem that good players don't arise? Do you think sallary is the problem? I will tell you that Korean amateurs and practice partners do pay to live in team houses and practice there. Its not like Koreans would always earn much. The problem really is the lack of teams and team houses / training environment. Ofcourse if you have to worry about paying rent and food you are not going anywhere and you better don't take your chances at being a progamer, but if you have a team to back you up like EG / Teamliquid you potentially CAN have the right environment and be just as good. Ofcourse according to your region. For an instance, I don't believe a NA player could ever reach Korean level on NA, just because if he's the best on that server, he's missing the players to practice with that would increase his level. You're not going to get the teams, teamhouses and thus training environment in places other than Korea, if there isnt a stable league that they can compete in, outside of Korea. Thats why so many people like Catz, Incontrol, etc, are wanting a region specific league. We can keep going in circles. You had NASL which was not really packed with Koreans but NA/EU people. Was it a huge success? I don't really know about it. A regional league would have a chance to be build up if money is present and money will only be given if there is interest. Interest though comes from competition and the best play possible. Do you really think putting money into a scene that is not on a level that is worthy watching would attract viewers? Certainly not or not worth the investment. EG does have a team hose, Axiom does have a teamhouse. Maybe the Koreans do have a league they can compete in, because they did build their scene beforehand and over a time which the foreign scene missed out on. I'm not saying that its a bad thing to build up a foreign scene and leagues that are region locked but if you make one, make it like the GSL. Excluding a nation is NEVER a good thing, but even if you allow Koreans I think you are right that a region locked league would raise the level of play. The problem now is finding someone who is willing to put money into it to raise the league and with it the scene. In the end it doesn't really matter if 1-2 players not from the region win it. The chance alone to make a living off it will probably enough to attract players. That being said, the risk stays the same. In Korea you have team houses you can pay acertain amount and you have a place to live and food just like in MoW - the risk itself still says outside of Korea. If someone would just host houses and provide food/shelter for a certain amount of money, now that would be a good thing do to. I think paying ~200$ - 300$ is affordable and no big risk if you want to give it a shot and live your dream. You can work to have 200-300$ / month and spend the rest working on your career.... well. Thats it from me :D Interest comes from more than just 'best possible play'. Not everything can be the tip-top best league...A lot of interest comes from watching people, teams, regions, grow and become better. Korean leagues didnt become the best out of chance, or luck, or because koreans in general have a better work/practice ethic. They've had the longest history of stable, long running leagues. Which as produced the amazing training and practice environments they have today. I didn't argue your point but I'm saying that even if you have those leagues the risk of being a progamer is high, because you most likely (especially rising players) cannot sustain themselves. Thats why I made the suggestion of raising those houses that provide food/shelter for a certain price. It does minimize the risk. Pair that with a region-locked league (not exluding any nation I would say, just like GSL) and you will have a rising scene and rising interest. I think you don't talk about a huge price money league to begin with, because no one would put insane amounts of money into the scene without having the biggest interest in their competition possible.
I apologize then, I misunderstood what you were trying to say. I think the risk of entering pro-gaming will always be high, haha just like any other professional sport. I will admit I don't think a large prize money league is the best way to start building things like pro-gaming houses, and teams in a region. But I do think that there wasnt much of a chance of it beginning from humble beginnings anymore. While WCS isn't the ideal way to achieve this growth, I think it was a much needed jumpstart, if its region locked. GSL is kind of region locked...they dont prohibit non-koreans from entering the preliminaries. Its just excessively expensive for many players, in a low-money profession like pro-gaming, to travel to Korea for a long enough period of time to train, and give it a shot. Coupled with the fact that GSL is a long, sustained Off-line league, it makes it that much tougher.
|
I don't care about nationality in Tournaments - I want to see pure, raw skill, dedication and a player i like crushing others.
Doesn't matter if he's from US, EU or KR. For everything else there's personal streams of players.
just my 2 cents
|
Can someone explain me why Catz's opinions are taken so seriously? I'm farily new to the ESports, but I chechk his profile and he doesn't seem like an amazing player with lots of achievements. His team didn't seem to have that much succes (except for the koreans in it).
I'm baffled that his stream has 2-3k viewers, while better players have under 1k. Could someone please explain to me?
|
On April 04 2013 18:57 Kenny_oro wrote:
I don't care about nationality in Tournaments - I want to see pure, raw skill, dedication and a player i like crushing others.
Doesn't matter if he's from US, EU or KR. For everything else there's personal streams of players.
just my 2 cents
While it is true and I would prefer if Koreans moved to take more WCS spots, I think there's one thing even the most hardcore fan wants more than pure skill and best gameplay. Its the scene not to die. While I love to see Koreans play, I also want Starcraft to succeed 
|
On April 04 2013 18:57 Kinon wrote:
Can someone explain me why Catz's opinions are taken so seriously? I'm farily new to the ESports, but I chechk his profile and he doesn't seem like an amazing player with lots of achievements. His team didn't seem to have that much succes (except for the koreans in it).
I'm baffled that his stream has 2-3k viewers, while better players have under 1k. Could someone please explain to me?
He's a good entertainer would be my guess, I personally don't follow him but some videos of him are hilarious
|
On April 04 2013 19:00 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 18:57 Kinon wrote:
Can someone explain me why Catz's opinions are taken so seriously? I'm farily new to the ESports, but I chechk his profile and he doesn't seem like an amazing player with lots of achievements. His team didn't seem to have that much succes (except for the koreans in it).
I'm baffled that his stream has 2-3k viewers, while better players have under 1k. Could someone please explain to me? He's a good entertainer would be my guess, I personally don't follow him but some videos of him are hilarious
He's also the leader of a much-loved team, ROOT. ROOT has quite the following.
|
There is a market for college basketball.
Why can't there be one for Starcraft 2?
On April 04 2013 18:57 Kinon wrote:
Can someone explain me why Catz's opinions are taken so seriously? I'm farily new to the ESports, but I chechk his profile and he doesn't seem like an amazing player with lots of achievements. His team didn't seem to have that much succes (except for the koreans in it).
I'm baffled that his stream has 2-3k viewers, while better players have under 1k. Could someone please explain to me?
Skill does not necessarily equate to more viewers and that translates to most forms of media.
Entertainment is what people want and they find that on Catz's stream. I'm not one to berate people for how they spend (or waste) their time.
|
I think Blizzard and its partners have put a lot of thought into WCS. In the long term three mirrored leagues will eventually become roughly equal in skill which would be great for EU and NA.
|
On April 04 2013 17:42 norlock wrote:
In this thread I will adress the Issues I have with people trying to come with solutions to make the scene better for Eu and Na.
Basically lately I don't really agree with all the ideas being throwen around to make it better for the foreign players. It seems like a lot of people are looking at results and want to change the way the outcome is to the way the koreans are dominating.
First of all I will adress what Catz had to say in Sotg. He basically said that he would like some American tournaments to be only played by American's. The reason was that for people coming to starcraft, they see how they can win money at tournaments. Instead of koreans taking wins at every tournament they compete in.
His philosophy is that if players could see tournaments they can win in, they are more motivated to play and it will help the overall growth of Sc2 in the west. The more players from the west are practicing hard for a tournament, the higher the level of play will become in the west.
Now this idea sounds really good in theory, here are some reasons why I don't think it will work. The reason a lot of people are watching a Dreamhack and a MLG is because of the quality of games, and the level of play they can expect at those tournaments. People like to see how their foreigners compare against the big guns out of Korea. The tournament is raised in value because they know that their tournament is an good environment to rate the players competing in it.
I don't think people should be practicing to win tournaments, but practice to become one of the best players in the world. And that means you need to see the reality of it. You can only become better by competing against better players. The will to perform is there when your opponents have a sick amount of skill.
The second idea I would like to adress is the WCS. Now with the WCS having 5 players from Eu and 5 players from Na competing in an offlne tournament. This means either Koreans come here to dominate, or we have an unbalanced tournament where the difference in level of skill between the good and the best players is huge.
This is what I think is the best solutions, in WCS 13 players are seeded from Korea and 2 players from EU and 1 player from NA. This means it is balanced between the regions compared to their skill. And also for Koreans not an handicap, and the need to fly over to compete.
Of course if more progammers arise in one area let's take NA for example more seeds are awarded to them.
This is what is being done in football(soccer) for years. The better countries get more teams seeded and wildcards given in the Champions League versus the lesser countries. It will be stupid to have from every country 2 teams, that means that Poland and England have for instance the same amount of teams. This will decrease the level of the Champions League, compared to what it is now. And an English competition(premier league) will be the grade to compare.
WCS won't be the tournament to decide who is the best, but a GSL and OGN will.
You basically counter yourself with this post. First you state that there shouldn't be tournements for one region/country only, but then you take the comparison to football. Realize that even though the seeds for the countries are different, there are still leagues in every country, which would mean that there also should be more regional based tournements in Sc2. I'm completly fine with a champions league kind of determination of who should participate in the final big tournements as long as there are regional leagues. For example i can not understand why MVP would participate in the ATC. (I mean i can understand it from MVPs side of view, they can ez farm some money, but why the were invited.) They already got the GSTL, to me it would make much more sense if these leagues would cooparate and only let teams of their representive region participate and eventually do a champions league kind of thing. Then in this league they could balance the skill difference with different amounts of seeds.
|
On April 04 2013 18:57 Kinon wrote:
Can someone explain me why Catz's opinions are taken so seriously? I'm farily new to the ESports, but I chechk his profile and he doesn't seem like an amazing player with lots of achievements. His team didn't seem to have that much succes (except for the koreans in it).
I'm baffled that his stream has 2-3k viewers, while better players have under 1k. Could someone please explain to me?
He's not the greatest player but don't forget the guy is still considered pro and better than 99.8% of the players out there! That's one thing!
Another one is the guy proved to have a pretty good understanding of the industry with his player and team manager background! Yes this guy isn't the best pro player but he understands this industry better than most other pros (even though they're better at the game).
Bottom line: stop being morons and saying because a player isn't top 50 in the world he shouldn't say shit about e-sports, Being a good player and understanding an industry in terms of business are 2 TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS !!!
Edit: following you're stupid ass reasoning noone on TL's forum should even speak since noone achieved anything ...
|
On April 04 2013 17:51 People_0f_Color wrote:
Even boxing has weight classes.
Euh, boxing has weight classes because physical boundaries would prevent maybe otherwise superior boxers from winning. The only difference with foreigners and Koreans is that Koreans are willing to put in more effort than the foreigners.
|
On April 04 2013 18:42 Micromnky wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 18:36 shell wrote:
What i don't understand is why the people that only want to see korean players be so mad and vocal against the people(me included) that feel that some tournaments should be foreigner oriented.
You have the GSL, PL and GSTL and possibly more leagues incoming.. tournaments that i also see and follow and pay for them.
Don't we have the same right? I love to know who is the best NA player or best EU player.. i don't need to always see the same players since i follow them when they play at "home"
Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 18:40 haffy wrote:On April 04 2013 18:10 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 04 2013 17:58 norlock wrote:On April 04 2013 17:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:
You want to talk about Professional Sports for comparison? Anyone on a pro sport team gets paid their salary, regardless of their teams results. They get full travel expenses paid for. They are allowed (and can get) personal sponsorships that can be worth the equivalent of their salaries.
Don't want to compare to a team sport? Okay then, losing in the first round of a Tennis Major tournament gives you $20,000. How about Golf? 70th place can earn you $10k. You do know that the reason why korean player leave their korean team for an foreign team is because of the salary? I think you missed the entire point of my post. Every single Pro Sport rewards people who reach the minimum qualifications. If you can get through the door, you have a legitimate career. SC2 is no where near that point. You have the top 20 yearly earnings that can justify playing SC2 instead of flipping burgers, and everyone else that's either flat broke or whoring themselves out for hundreds of hours on Twitch. People keep ranting that Koreans should get all the money because Koreans are the best, and that everyone else should aspire to be as good as them. What happens in reality? If there is no money to be made outside of Korea, everyone simply packs up and leaves...or never even exists. Brood War proved that; having a massive scene in a single nation did absolutely nothing to foster the industry elsewhere. If you want the foreign scene to be competitive, the money has to be there first. Completely agree with this. Exactly this. I love GSL. I regularly stay up to ridiculous hours of the morning, local time, to watch Proleague live. But I'd love to see things like this happening in NA and EU as well. And I feel if they were to happen, then we'd see the overall skill, money, interest, amount of teams, and again, skill, of NA and EU players rise.
Requoting, I agree with these sentiments. Koreans won't have less tournaments to compete in than before, they just decided to use the GSL for the initial WCS seeding, seeing as it is a well-established long-running SC2 tournament in Korea. Korean players won't be worse off now than before.
Meanwhile, having official regional tournaments in NA/EU may make players in these regions more motivated to play, practice and improve slow, but steady. As competition gets fiercer for the nice WCS prize pools, the players practice more for hopefully having a realistic shot at the prize pool. Of course, Koreans are free toplay in these regions if they want to, but they have to commit to them and play with latency, in addition to pay for travel if they qualify for the season finals. It's a soft region lock with pro and cons for those that participate outside of the region.
In others words, there'll be something for everyone. Koreans will have the same amount of tournaments as before, and those that want to watch the absolutely highest level of play can watch GSL/Proleague etc. which will go on as usual, in addition to Korean pros that go to the regular MLGs, NASLs, Dreamhacks etc.
We also get more exposure for the NA/EU players and they have more motivation to practice and compete with a realistic shot at some money. We'll have some great storylines from each region and the season finals will be like a NASL/Dreamhack final, where there are both NA/EU players and Korean players competing. The only real "con" here is that they used the GSL for seeding I guess, instead of having it as its own qualifier.
Some people here also react to the fact that there are many good Code B/A Koreans that are better than most NA/Eu players and thus "deserve" WCS spots more than NA/EU players. Sure, in an ideal world where viewers only care for the best of the best players playing, you'd primarily have the Code B/A/S players and maybe a few select non-Koreans. But what's fair in terms of skill alone doesn't always work out with viewers and interest. We already have the Korean leagues with the best of the best, so making the WCS the same thing seems pointless.
I personally like what Blizzard has decided on with the WCS and can't wait to see all the regions play!
|
On April 04 2013 19:12 butchji wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 17:51 People_0f_Color wrote:
Even boxing has weight classes. Euh, boxing has weight classes because physical boundaries would prevent maybe otherwise superior boxers from winning. The only difference with foreigners and Koreans is that Koreans are willing to put in more effort than the foreigners.
That's only partly true. A foreigner will never be able to become better than the Korean's on his own, no matter how much effort he's willing to put in on his own. You need the right conditions, coaches, good practice partners, competeing teams that creates higher level competition and so on. You can't will that to happen as an individual. The only choice right now is to actually go to Korea and try to make it, which in itself have other big hurdles since the conditions still won't be ideal. Until the the whole foreign scene gets closer to Korea in the infrastructure, effort just isn't enough. Hence region locking to enable that to happen more easily.
|
good move for wcs. more diversity and a shared motivation for all the players. games should be region locked so koreans dont move to the us or europe to play.
|
United Kingdom12022 Posts
"Why do we want foreigners to compete with Koreans"
Well for me I want to see them actually put more effort in to work harder in their teams to get better at the game. I don't want them to bother otherwise.
I want Koreans at all the tournaments because I like watching the best of the best play and if it turns out no foreign player can stand close, well I don't care as nationality doesn't come into who I support.
|
There are only 3 races in Starcraft: Protoss, Zerg, and Terran. I don't care about the nationality of the players. I just want the best games possible.
|
On April 04 2013 19:41 gruff wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 19:12 butchji wrote:On April 04 2013 17:51 People_0f_Color wrote:
Even boxing has weight classes. Euh, boxing has weight classes because physical boundaries would prevent maybe otherwise superior boxers from winning. The only difference with foreigners and Koreans is that Koreans are willing to put in more effort than the foreigners. That's only partly true. A foreigner will never be able to become better than the Korean's on his own, no matter how much effort he's willing to put in on his own. You need the right conditions, coaches, good practice partners, competeing teams that creates higher level competition and so on. You can't will that to happen as an individual. The only choice right now is to actually go to Korea and try to make it, which in itself have other big hurdles since the conditions still won't be ideal. Until the the whole foreign scene gets closer to Korea in the infrastructure, effort just isn't enough. Hence region locking to enable that to happen more easily.
Maybe, but Stephano, in his prime (not that he isn't good now), got pretty damn good on his own ^^
|
|
|
from my point of view...no EU or NA Player is training/trying as hard as korean pro gamers. So they deserve the spotlight and the prize money. Prove me wrong...but koreans put everything in their game.
|
at the end of the day there shouldnt be limitations or differences between Koreans and "foreigners" at the end of the day its been proving foreigners can compete and take games from Koreans the only problem is that foreigners lack the dedication and passion that Koreans have, the foreigners who have shown this passion and dedication have won tournaments and or got to top 8 in tournaments
all im saying is, its not the tournament system to blame, but the players state of mind
|
On April 04 2013 20:09 cutler wrote:
from my point of view...no EU or NA Player is training/trying as hard as korean pro gamers. So they deserve the spotlight and the prize money. Prove me wrong...but koreans put everything in their game.
I'm not proving you wrong, but I woud love a source for your bald statement.
|
yeah statements like the one from catz always comes from c-class sometimes b-class pros. all more or less reasonable arguments have the same source . the source inside the player, the need for wins. they cant win because they "suck". they lack skill, discipline and dedication. they are too lazy too work their butts off. they want to make a living out of sc2 without doing too much. but making a living out of it also means you have to work for it. unfortunatly things like streaming give the opportunity to such players to make a living out of it with just gimpimg around allday.
its basically "i want to win tournaments so i can feel successful but im too lazy to work my butt off for it. so i want the best gamers out of it ! "
and gamers motivated by it?? yeah cool "hey look now im able to win tournaments without improving myself cause koreans are gone" this is quite the opposite, dont you think? there is no better motivation than playing vs the best. every good sportsman can tell you that, may it be football, basketball or any other sport. catz just makes up random arguments in his frustration of winning nothing
|
Stupid discussion.
This is a competitive rts game... the best players play.
The practice excuse is also bs, you are more than capable of getting good practice online with other pros and there are plenty foreigners who do nothing besides play this game...
|
Well I agree with Catz here. I am foreigner and I would like to watch more foreign action. I am presonally bored from Koreans dominating every tournament. I dont care really for their "awesome" play since EU and NA players can show interesting games too. Not to mention creativity which isnt really on KR players' side. I would like to see more competitive and developed scenes instead of watching same players over and over again.
|
On April 04 2013 20:36 Technique wrote:
Stupid discussion.
This is a competitive rts game... the best players play.
The practice excuse is also bs, you are more than capable of getting good practice online with other pros and there are plenty foreigners who do nothing besides play this game...
Sure and in 3 years there's nothing more for you to watch in english because all the competition is in Korea and you go whine that Blizzard doesn't help e-sport ...
Kids with no basic understanding of business (money = content) should not talk ...
|
On April 04 2013 19:41 gruff wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 19:12 butchji wrote:On April 04 2013 17:51 People_0f_Color wrote:
Even boxing has weight classes. Euh, boxing has weight classes because physical boundaries would prevent maybe otherwise superior boxers from winning. The only difference with foreigners and Koreans is that Koreans are willing to put in more effort than the foreigners. That's only partly true. A foreigner will never be able to become better than the Korean's on his own, no matter how much effort he's willing to put in on his own. You need the right conditions, coaches, good practice partners, competeing teams that creates higher level competition and so on. You can't will that to happen as an individual. The only choice right now is to actually go to Korea and try to make it, which in itself have other big hurdles since the conditions still won't be ideal. Until the the whole foreign scene gets closer to Korea in the infrastructure, effort just isn't enough. Hence region locking to enable that to happen more easily.
Some good points here, but as I see it, you are arguing for having Koreans in the EU/US WCS tournaments. This is assuming that the Koreans going to EU/US joint EU/US teams and train with them. As of now, the best EU/US players don't have good enough practice partners in EU/US and have to go to Korea to get them. Without good enough practice partners they will always get beaten by the Koreans.
Since they are using the GSL-format with group plays in Ro32 and Ro16 of Code S and for the up/down matches you will get plenty of matches against the top Koreans, getting much needed experience to get better and able to beat them.
|
Honestly I don't care who plays against each other, as long as the matches are highest quality and most entertaining. Koreans are the best, and as long this doesn't change, they should always be invited..
|
On April 04 2013 20:51 Emix_Squall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 20:36 Technique wrote:
Stupid discussion.
This is a competitive rts game... the best players play.
The practice excuse is also bs, you are more than capable of getting good practice online with other pros and there are plenty foreigners who do nothing besides play this game... Sure and in 3 years there's nothing more for you to watch in english because all the competition is in Korea and you go whine that Blizzard doesn't help e-sport ... Kids with no basic understanding of business (money = content) should not talk ...
For someone who immediately dismissed the post, you sure are active in replying the posts in here
|
In the western world when you work at some point want to be accepted as a person and for your work. May it be by your boss, by your colleagues, customers or media. A player in EU/NA will never find broad acceptance today. Even from in the own community. Hence the playerbase that could arise as progamer are less dedicated. "Playing" "computergame" and then call it "sport" .. are you crazy?! That what´s the normal response of any normal dude in the citys would be. This will only change in 2-3 generations in the western world. Or when big western countrys finally accept esport as real sport.
Another problem is that countrys like china/korea have a advantage in form of knowledge/technology of 1 generation to other countrys. They know how to train how to coach how the infrastructure should be.
If now the sportsman have the same acceptance in the society, ecnomoy, and media like in the asian world there´s no doubt you would have people with equal skill and dedication to their work as you see in the asian world.
|
Whilst I can see the point here, and agree to some extent, it would put me off watching.
I like to watch tournaments for the quality of play. If this was restricted, for me, it would ruin a lot of the fun.
I enjoy watching the highest of the highest compete.
|
Bisutopia19230 Posts
One thing I do agree on is a major American only tournament. That would be sick if it was on a big stage and had the to 64 players coming in to compete. I think there is a huge lack of knowledge who the American players are.
|
The best games on average come out of korea (obviously). Foreigners should drum up interest in their games by creating storylines and rivalries. Naniwa's little bit of trash talk versus thorzain was awesome and makes me want to watch even if the games don't end up being the best.
Why do you think Chael Sonnen is fighting Jon Jones or Nick Diaz got a title shot? It's because they are good entertainment. The most successful athletes win games AND have some quality that makes you want to watch their games.
In other sports, they have primetime specials, commercials, interviews, and articles which can help provide this personality even if the guy they're featuring is kind of boring. If Kevin Durant didn't have people marketing him he wouldn't be nearly as popular, since hes basically just a nice guy who is really good at bball. By creating a rivalry with lebron and putting him in funny commercials, and 10x the amount of people tune in to watch him.
In Esports the same thing happens. Sure there are players who are popular and players who are just incredibly good. But look at what players are the most successful. Stephano, Idra, Huk. No doubt all of them were/are amazing players. This skill is definitely the most important thing. But they also have things about them that make them popular outside the game.
Stephano is the rebel/rockstar, Idra formed rivalries and talked trash, Huk is just an entertaining guy. Do you think he gets to do his kingston HyperX stuff just based on talent? You also wont see guys like Catz getting those spots, regardless of how much fun their streams are.
Its the same in Korea. The only difference is their hype machine is alot better, so they can manufacture compelling stories around boring players (like in basketball, football, etc). MVP won 5 championships, but I would say his popularity really skyrocketed after his wrists started falling apart. People will always watch a GSL finals, but his health struggles made me want to watch his whole tournament run.
TL;DR
I will always watch the best players. But if I'm going to watch players who aren't top tier give me a reason to support you over the other guy. The more emotionally invested I am in a player the more likely I am to watch games that I wouldn't otherwise. I want to be upset when my favorite player loses. I dont want to feel like the games I watch don't matter.
|
I think we need a combination of both worlds. It seems people don't really want to see only Koreans dominating every tournament, yet we also want to watch the best games. We like rooting for foreigners because we love the underdog. I remember pulling my hair out when Suppy went up 2-0 against Parting in the quarterfinals of the last WCS. In my opinion, part of what makes a good game is the backstory behind the game, which helps compliment the game itself. In general, more foreigners have developed out of game personas that make them more interesting to watch in game. I think it's unfortunate when a group of not so popular Korean B-teamers come and close out a tournament, and then disappear back into the mist as soon as they return to Korea. I'm not sure if there is a one-size-fits-all solution to getting the right mix of foreigners and Koreans, but I have no problem with trying out the current WCS setup and seeing how it pans out this year.
|
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On April 04 2013 20:14 Xiron wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 20:09 cutler wrote:
from my point of view...no EU or NA Player is training/trying as hard as korean pro gamers. So they deserve the spotlight and the prize money. Prove me wrong...but koreans put everything in their game. I'm not proving you wrong, but I woud love a source for your bald statement.
Flash has been known to practice up to or even more than 12 hours a day. He deserves to win much more than an American player who puts a lot less effort in.
|
On April 04 2013 20:51 Emix_Squall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 20:36 Technique wrote:
Stupid discussion.
This is a competitive rts game... the best players play.
The practice excuse is also bs, you are more than capable of getting good practice online with other pros and there are plenty foreigners who do nothing besides play this game... Sure and in 3 years there's nothing more for you to watch in english because all the competition is in Korea and you go whine that Blizzard doesn't help e-sport ... Kids with no basic understanding of business (money = content) should not talk ...
In English? I watch the game... not the mumbo jumbo around it.
|
If you want to grow esports you're going to have to look outside of Korea. There has to be some tournaments outside of Korea that get interest and media attention that are for NA and EU only. you get that attention from money. The reason you don't get the results in other regoins besides Korea is because of the penetration into the market of Korea. If you ask most 13-18 year olds in the US, even ones who own SC2, if they knew what kind of money is available for the top players they would have no idea. the reason is that other things have the market penetration while professional gamer does not.
You have to give players in these regoins a reason to want to put the time and effort into it. Look at all the amature sports leagues in the US. There are kids putting in full time effot into these things because they see the potential at the end. Gaming needs to make itself known to this demographic. You need to appeal to the money and fame aspect if you want to grow it. To do this you're going to need leagues and tournaments that promote that.
I feel that oine great example to show the difference in ideas and market penetration is that all over the world players aren't named by their region. They are called foreigners. The whole world of sc2 esports revolves around a Korean centric mentality. If you want to grow sc2 esports you have to look outside of Korea. If that means putting limits on nationality of players in certain competitions then that is what has to be done. In essence it means creating a minor league of sorts. you're still going to have the major world tournaments that will probably be dominated by Koreans for a while. But you also have to find a way to find the best talent around the world. Flooding all of the profitable leagues and tournaments with the same, mostly Korean, players hinders this.
You have to get exposure. There are 5 year olds putting on football pads to try and start their careers. That is how you find the top talent. You have to saturate the market and be able to have a clear path on where it could end. right now sc2 is nothing in the US. the potential is there but I'm not sure if the resources are. Until there is a major tournament on prime time network tv in the US and using that to promote other events. you will never see the kind of talent coming out of the US that is coming out of Korea.
|
You can have regional leagues but banning a nationality of taking part in your league would not benefit esport but make it look like a farce.
|
Watching most pro foreigners play vs a Korean is like watching a masters player vs a platinum player. When you realise that don't normally watch to watch plat tournaments.
|
Norlock you say the reason people watch Starcraft is because of the lvl of play but its not true. One of the highest watched tournaments was WCS EU and not a single Korean was there. There is only a very elite group who likes to watch the highest lvl of play and most of them is around TL spawning there elitist attitude. I know many people who only watch sc2 if a player is from there own country. And that's is the essence of sport. In order to grow sc2 you need to grow the national feeling among the players and fans
On April 04 2013 21:24 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 20:51 Emix_Squall wrote:On April 04 2013 20:36 Technique wrote:
Stupid discussion.
This is a competitive rts game... the best players play.
The practice excuse is also bs, you are more than capable of getting good practice online with other pros and there are plenty foreigners who do nothing besides play this game... Sure and in 3 years there's nothing more for you to watch in english because all the competition is in Korea and you go whine that Blizzard doesn't help e-sport ... Kids with no basic understanding of business (money = content) should not talk ... In English? I watch the game... not the mumbo jumbo around it.
And thx god you not making any decision or else the scene would be 5 nerds and a lolita doll
On April 04 2013 21:24 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 20:14 Xiron wrote:On April 04 2013 20:09 cutler wrote:
from my point of view...no EU or NA Player is training/trying as hard as korean pro gamers. So they deserve the spotlight and the prize money. Prove me wrong...but koreans put everything in their game. I'm not proving you wrong, but I woud love a source for your bald statement. Flash has been known to practice up to or even more than 12 hours a day. He deserves to win much more than an American player who puts a lot less effort in.
And how do you know that? You don't again elitist attitude from the old age of the BW scene. You got no idea how much people train so provide some proof or be quite
|
On April 04 2013 17:42 norlock wrote:
This is what I think is the best solutions, in WCS 13 players are seeded from Korea and 2 players from EU and 1 player from NA. This means it is balanced between the regions compared to their skill. And also for Koreans not an handicap, and the need to fly over to compete.
Korean vs korean is most boring shit ever. It may be high level but that's not what im looking for. I know what they can do. Why should I watch (all the time) korean vs korean if I already know that? It's like in football or ice hockey. Do you watch or cheer for the best team? Well, you might but most not. They have their own favorite players/teams. And I have to say that korean are damn boring (except MC), and shy.
What players I cheer for? These two are most important things.
1. Nationality = Finland ( If there is player from Finland, I always cheer for him, no matter race or personality)
2. Players personality
Meaning mostly this:
Elfi, Welmu, Protosser, Naama, Satiini and Fuzer (most known players)
+
Grubby, He have awesome personality!
If I would choose what I watch during tournaments:
If there would be Taeja vs Flash or Oz vs Life (korean vs korean)
vs
Welmu vs ThorZain or Naama vs onerandomguythatnobodyknowns (foreign vs finnish)
Answer is:
Welmu vs ThorZain or Naama vs onerandomguythatnobodyknowns
|
These kind of rants are always so familiar regardless of the context.
Something new gets announced => people critisise everything and anything about it => it actually comes out => people realise how wrong they were when the viewership explodes.
People said the same thing about HOTS before it came out, but look how it played out and the views the last Mlg got.
The key lesson learned? Let it play out for a bit, observe carefully, then make a rational decision from there whether it is positive or requires change.
|
On April 04 2013 22:25 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 17:42 norlock wrote:
This is what I think is the best solutions, in WCS 13 players are seeded from Korea and 2 players from EU and 1 player from NA. This means it is balanced between the regions compared to their skill. And also for Koreans not an handicap, and the need to fly over to compete.
Korean vs korean is most boring shit ever. It may be high level but that's not what im looking for. I know what they can do. Why should I watch (all the time) korean vs korean if I already know that? It's like in football or ice hockey. Do you watch or cheer for the best team? Well, you might but most not. They have their own favorite players/teams. And I have to say that korean are damn boring (except MC), and shy. What players I cheer for? These two are most important things. 1. Nationality = Finland ( If there is player from Finland, I always cheer for him, no matter race or personality) 2. Players personality Meaning mostly this: Elfi, Welmu, Protosser, Naama, Satiini and Fuzer (most known players) + Grubby, He have awesome personality!
If you cheer for a bad team in football/ice hockey they also lose?
What point are you trying to make?
edit:
Not saying those players you named are bad.
|
On April 04 2013 22:29 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 22:25 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On April 04 2013 17:42 norlock wrote:
This is what I think is the best solutions, in WCS 13 players are seeded from Korea and 2 players from EU and 1 player from NA. This means it is balanced between the regions compared to their skill. And also for Koreans not an handicap, and the need to fly over to compete.
Korean vs korean is most boring shit ever. It may be high level but that's not what im looking for. I know what they can do. Why should I watch (all the time) korean vs korean if I already know that? It's like in football or ice hockey. Do you watch or cheer for the best team? Well, you might but most not. They have their own favorite players/teams. And I have to say that korean are damn boring (except MC), and shy. What players I cheer for? These two are most important things. 1. Nationality = Finland ( If there is player from Finland, I always cheer for him, no matter race or personality) 2. Players personality Meaning mostly this: Elfi, Welmu, Protosser, Naama, Satiini and Fuzer (most known players) + Grubby, He have awesome personality! If you cheer for a bad team in football/ice hockey they also lose? What point are you trying to make? edit: Not saying those players you named are bad.
And I have no idea what you mean.
|
On April 04 2013 22:31 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 22:29 Technique wrote:On April 04 2013 22:25 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On April 04 2013 17:42 norlock wrote:
This is what I think is the best solutions, in WCS 13 players are seeded from Korea and 2 players from EU and 1 player from NA. This means it is balanced between the regions compared to their skill. And also for Koreans not an handicap, and the need to fly over to compete.
Korean vs korean is most boring shit ever. It may be high level but that's not what im looking for. I know what they can do. Why should I watch (all the time) korean vs korean if I already know that? It's like in football or ice hockey. Do you watch or cheer for the best team? Well, you might but most not. They have their own favorite players/teams. And I have to say that korean are damn boring (except MC), and shy. What players I cheer for? These two are most important things. 1. Nationality = Finland ( If there is player from Finland, I always cheer for him, no matter race or personality) 2. Players personality Meaning mostly this: Elfi, Welmu, Protosser, Naama, Satiini and Fuzer (most known players) + Grubby, He have awesome personality! If you cheer for a bad team in football/ice hockey they also lose? What point are you trying to make? edit: Not saying those players you named are bad. And I have no idea what you mean.
Well in football/ice hockey they also don't remove the top teams/players so that the bad team you are cheering for can win the league right?
|
"I want to show great games and yes, no, thank you.... " blablabla.
No thx. Some might not care for anything other than the games, but the standard Korean Starcraft 2 player is as interesting as watching a river carve out a valley over millions of years ... Many just want to care for the people playing the game. If they're both good and interesting, all the better, but I'd rather follow controversial Frank McShitty from Europe or NA, than stoneface Terminator, destroyer of worlds and bringer of westerner tears, Lee Hung Wung Doe from Korea.
Having us play against the Koreans just brings the excitement of "can they do it this time maybe?", something which is quite common in other sports, when a weak team / country plays vs. the goliaths of the sport.
|
On April 04 2013 22:32 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 22:31 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On April 04 2013 22:29 Technique wrote:On April 04 2013 22:25 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On April 04 2013 17:42 norlock wrote:
This is what I think is the best solutions, in WCS 13 players are seeded from Korea and 2 players from EU and 1 player from NA. This means it is balanced between the regions compared to their skill. And also for Koreans not an handicap, and the need to fly over to compete.
Korean vs korean is most boring shit ever. It may be high level but that's not what im looking for. I know what they can do. Why should I watch (all the time) korean vs korean if I already know that? It's like in football or ice hockey. Do you watch or cheer for the best team? Well, you might but most not. They have their own favorite players/teams. And I have to say that korean are damn boring (except MC), and shy. What players I cheer for? These two are most important things. 1. Nationality = Finland ( If there is player from Finland, I always cheer for him, no matter race or personality) 2. Players personality Meaning mostly this: Elfi, Welmu, Protosser, Naama, Satiini and Fuzer (most known players) + Grubby, He have awesome personality! If you cheer for a bad team in football/ice hockey they also lose? What point are you trying to make? edit: Not saying those players you named are bad. And I have no idea what you mean. Well in football/ice hockey they also don't remove the top teams/players so that the bad team you are cheering for can win the league right?
I still don't get it.
All that im trying to say:
If there is match between all time rank 1 football team vs all time rank 2 football team and they are currently rank 1&2. (SC2 = KOREA)
And then there is match where your favorite team plays. I would watch that no matter how low level gameplay that is. (ofc not amateurs vs amateurs :D)
|
I think it's because people can easier relate to a "foreigner" rather than a korean. Just my humble opinion
|
On April 04 2013 19:06 Emix_Squall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 18:57 Kinon wrote:
Can someone explain me why Catz's opinions are taken so seriously? I'm farily new to the ESports, but I chechk his profile and he doesn't seem like an amazing player with lots of achievements. His team didn't seem to have that much succes (except for the koreans in it).
I'm baffled that his stream has 2-3k viewers, while better players have under 1k. Could someone please explain to me? He's not the greatest player but don't forget the guy is still considered pro and better than 99.8% of the players out there! That's one thing! Another one is the guy proved to have a pretty good understanding of the industry with his player and team manager background! Yes this guy isn't the best pro player but he understands this industry better than most other pros (even though they're better at the game). Bottom line: stop being morons and saying because a player isn't top 50 in the world he shouldn't say shit about e-sports, Being a good player and understanding an industry in terms of business are 2 TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS !!! Edit: following you're stupid ass reasoning noone on TL's forum should even speak since noone achieved anything ...
Dude, wtf. The guy literally said right there that he's new to the pro scene, and you're flaming the shit out of him for harboring one misconception. Manner up.
Essentially Kinon, what many people tend to forget is that at the end of the day, any kind of professional competition is lucrative due to its entertainment value. If you're boring, no one will watch you, unless you're REALLY good. It doesn't matter if you're better than CatZ; unless you're the best, you'll always have fewer viewers than him because he's quite simply more entertaining than you are. Think of the Harlem Globetrotters compared to an NBA team. There is always a place in a sport/eSport for skilled entertainers.
Plus CatZ knows just about everything about the player/team side of eSports there is to know from his versatile experience.
|
On April 04 2013 22:37 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 22:32 Technique wrote:On April 04 2013 22:31 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On April 04 2013 22:29 Technique wrote:On April 04 2013 22:25 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On April 04 2013 17:42 norlock wrote:
This is what I think is the best solutions, in WCS 13 players are seeded from Korea and 2 players from EU and 1 player from NA. This means it is balanced between the regions compared to their skill. And also for Koreans not an handicap, and the need to fly over to compete.
Korean vs korean is most boring shit ever. It may be high level but that's not what im looking for. I know what they can do. Why should I watch (all the time) korean vs korean if I already know that? It's like in football or ice hockey. Do you watch or cheer for the best team? Well, you might but most not. They have their own favorite players/teams. And I have to say that korean are damn boring (except MC), and shy. What players I cheer for? These two are most important things. 1. Nationality = Finland ( If there is player from Finland, I always cheer for him, no matter race or personality) 2. Players personality Meaning mostly this: Elfi, Welmu, Protosser, Naama, Satiini and Fuzer (most known players) + Grubby, He have awesome personality! If you cheer for a bad team in football/ice hockey they also lose? What point are you trying to make? edit: Not saying those players you named are bad. And I have no idea what you mean. Well in football/ice hockey they also don't remove the top teams/players so that the bad team you are cheering for can win the league right? I still don't get it. All that im trying to say: If there is match between all time rank 1 football team vs all time rank 2 football team and they are currently rank 1&2. (SC2 = KOREA) And then there is match where your favorite team plays. I would watch that no matter how low level gameplay that is. (ofc not amateurs vs amateurs :D)
Yeah ok i get that with different leagues etc... i watch Feyenoord over the best club like Barcelona as well.
But that's due to the whole hometown team thing and growing up with it... i think that's something that can't be compared with anything in a computer game really...
And personally i pick players i cheer for based on their play styles, i was a big Moon fan in wc3tft, but never watched interviews or anything like that... just fan of his game.
|
Well, there definitely needs to be a big gsl-like league in NA and EUR, which isn't limited to nationality, but has to be played live. I think the teams should start coordinating more when it comes to opening team houses and start opening more houses around a certain area like in Seoul.
|
We aren't competing with Koreans. We compete with each other, and try to be the best at doing so.
Some people get certain feelings by playing a Korean, but it's just a person, who also has it's weaknesses, just like everyone else.
|
On April 04 2013 22:53 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 22:37 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On April 04 2013 22:32 Technique wrote:On April 04 2013 22:31 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On April 04 2013 22:29 Technique wrote:On April 04 2013 22:25 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On April 04 2013 17:42 norlock wrote:
This is what I think is the best solutions, in WCS 13 players are seeded from Korea and 2 players from EU and 1 player from NA. This means it is balanced between the regions compared to their skill. And also for Koreans not an handicap, and the need to fly over to compete.
Korean vs korean is most boring shit ever. It may be high level but that's not what im looking for. I know what they can do. Why should I watch (all the time) korean vs korean if I already know that? It's like in football or ice hockey. Do you watch or cheer for the best team? Well, you might but most not. They have their own favorite players/teams. And I have to say that korean are damn boring (except MC), and shy. What players I cheer for? These two are most important things. 1. Nationality = Finland ( If there is player from Finland, I always cheer for him, no matter race or personality) 2. Players personality Meaning mostly this: Elfi, Welmu, Protosser, Naama, Satiini and Fuzer (most known players) + Grubby, He have awesome personality! If you cheer for a bad team in football/ice hockey they also lose? What point are you trying to make? edit: Not saying those players you named are bad. And I have no idea what you mean. Well in football/ice hockey they also don't remove the top teams/players so that the bad team you are cheering for can win the league right? I still don't get it. All that im trying to say: If there is match between all time rank 1 football team vs all time rank 2 football team and they are currently rank 1&2. (SC2 = KOREA) And then there is match where your favorite team plays. I would watch that no matter how low level gameplay that is. (ofc not amateurs vs amateurs :D) Yeah ok i get that with different leagues etc... i watch Feyenoord over the best club like Barcelona as well. But that's due to the whole hometown team thing and growing up with it... i think that's something that can't be compared with anything in a computer game really... And personally i pick players i cheer for based on their play styles, i was a big Moon fan in wc3tft, but never watched interviews or anything like that... just fan of his game.
I don't even think this is a Korea vs Foreigner discussion. This is about people argueing that banning a player due to its origin is wrong. Its good to have leagues rise and grow the scene in both NA and EU, but if you make the mistake to ban a player due to its origin you do not only make eSport look like a joke you also do offend Koreans and Korea directly.
I think Koreans do their best to welcome the foreign scene with open arms actually especially if someone like Naniwa/SaSe/Major gets over and has the right attitude to work hard and what are we doing? LETS BUILD UP LEAGUES AND BAN THEM, because for what reason? BECAUSE THEY ARE GOOD.
If any media would get grasp of it it would be the downfall of so called eSport within the foreign scene, because no major sponsor would EVER touch this field again.
On April 04 2013 22:54 JustPassingBy wrote:
Well, there definitely needs to be a big gsl-like league in NA and EUR, which isn't limited to nationality, but has to be played live. I think the teams should start coordinating more when it comes to opening team houses and start opening more houses around a certain area like in Seoul.
First guy that gets what the problem really is. We don't have leagues here. We have major tournaments that go 2-4 days and pay out a big prizepool. Why does no one in NA for example have the money they usually put in a weekend tournament put into a league? Have players compete like in the German EPS and hand out payments/wins for single maps, bo3, bo5... overall tournament victory. You don't have to ban Koreans or artificially try to raise eSports, it will grow by itself if you give players a chance and places to compete in.
The reason Koreans are coming over to major tournaments is because those tournaments are major in pricemoney. You can bet your ass if there was a big tournament in Korea that just goes for 2 days straight with a pricepool of 50000$ + foreign teams would be the first to pack their bags, doesn't even matter if the competition is nearly unbeatable, they would give it a shot.
|
Ya, give the Europeans and American's their own tournament. I wouldn't watch it, but they should definitely have one for the sake of people with overwhelming national pride.
|
I have to say I like the wcs format. It is inevitably going to allow esports to grow and there will be a lot of interesting storylines. It creates a system where the best players can rise to the top and there is an established worldwide structure where you can get an overall ranking for the players. As others have mentioned esports needs to grow to the place where more established sports are at where you do not need to be among the best in the world to make a living. There are premier and challenger leagues so hopefully we will get to a place where players who never get higher than challenger
can make a decent living.
Of course lessons can and should be learned from other sports. I will start by saying esports should not be limited to locking competitions to nationality.Players are competing for themselves and their teams and there can still be interesting story lines with and without nationality with out making it a limiting factor within the tournament structure. Think of the Olympics, something like the Jamaican sprint qualifier is most likely as tough if not tougher competition than the Olympic final itself. What is the difference in viewers? so then the Olympic system is actually unfair on some of the top competitors in the world, as it would be if Wcs went that route.(of course it does not really affect who actually ends up winning)
There are Starcraft 2 events that do not feature the best in the world, though they are inevitably lower profile and get less viewers. Also with some notable events being outside of wcs, the top players may be less likely to attend them and then they will become filled with the players who can not manage to be in the wcs premier league.
There will be lots of interesting storylines from this both with and without nationality being a factor.
Already we can speculate on whos going to be playing where, even just thinking of tl/eg where are they going to place their players?
Jaedong, Stephano, Demuslim, Idra, Huk to name a few players, it would make sense to split them into Na/Eu to give each of them the best chances.
Does Tl try to guess where those players are playing and place their own players to get the best matchups?
Throw in every other team including all of the koreans and there is a ton of interesting speculation and story lines before the events have even really started.
We are already calling Na, it will most likely go to Polt or Stephano if they both play in Na and there is already an interesting past between those two. What if they do not end up facing each other and someone else takes it? and so on.
This only touches the surface of the potential.
This year is going to be awesome.
|
On April 04 2013 22:49 Shantastic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 19:06 Emix_Squall wrote:On April 04 2013 18:57 Kinon wrote:
Can someone explain me why Catz's opinions are taken so seriously? I'm farily new to the ESports, but I chechk his profile and he doesn't seem like an amazing player with lots of achievements. His team didn't seem to have that much succes (except for the koreans in it).
I'm baffled that his stream has 2-3k viewers, while better players have under 1k. Could someone please explain to me? He's not the greatest player but don't forget the guy is still considered pro and better than 99.8% of the players out there! That's one thing! Another one is the guy proved to have a pretty good understanding of the industry with his player and team manager background! Yes this guy isn't the best pro player but he understands this industry better than most other pros (even though they're better at the game). Bottom line: stop being morons and saying because a player isn't top 50 in the world he shouldn't say shit about e-sports, Being a good player and understanding an industry in terms of business are 2 TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS !!! Edit: following you're stupid ass reasoning noone on TL's forum should even speak since noone achieved anything ... Dude, wtf. The guy literally said right there that he's new to the pro scene, and you're flaming the shit out of him for harboring one misconception. Manner up. Essentially Kinon, what many people tend to forget is that at the end of the day, any kind of professional competition is lucrative due to its entertainment value. If you're boring, no one will watch you, unless you're REALLY good. It doesn't matter if you're better than CatZ; unless you're the best, you'll always have fewer viewers than him because he's quite simply more entertaining than you are. Think of the Harlem Globetrotters compared to an NBA team. There is always a place in a sport/eSport for skilled entertainers. Plus CatZ knows just about everything about the player/team side of eSports there is to know from his versatile experience.
New to the scene doesn't mean new to "life" ...
It's the same in pretty much everything ... when you talk about football do you only value the opinion of Messi, Ronaldo and Zlatan or do you also listen to other people who proved they have knowledge of this industry?
Same goes with everything! Someone can be new and still use his brain for basic stuff.
Sometime reading topics turn into debates on the color of an orange between blind people and colorblind people....
If you want to talk an express an opinion on a topic, the very least you can do is to make sure you have basic knowledge of the subject ... if not just STFU ... no need to talk for the sake of talking!
Edit: sry I'm getting off topic but it really pisses me off to read bullshit like "this guy isn't top 50, his opinion is shit". Specially when talking about people who bust their asses to grow this industry.
|
For me I want to be able to communicate with, or at least understand, some players. I love watching streams where people commentate and explain what they're doing. If I watch a korean stream (which happens less anyway) I'm not going to get that. The number of korean pros with whom I'd be able to have a conversation longer than "hello, how are you?" is pretty small. MC, Polt and Violet spring to mind.
It's a bonus if I can watch a really good (Code S/Code A) player who can also speak a language I speak. Stephano is about the only one who's that level (roughly) and speaks English well enough to be understandable.
I have favourite korean players, don't get me wrong. It's just nice if foreigners are competitive too. At the end of the day though, I don't really care too much if SC2 becomes totally Korean dominated. First and foremost I care about the games, and Koreans definitely deliver when it comes to that.
|
"People only care about seeing the best players (assumption), so lets fill the tournaments with Koreans even more. Fuck foreigners."
Why is this its own thread? I was expecting at least some new arguments from the OP to warrant a new thread.
|
As bad as it sounds, it is a fair choice. Koreans put alot of time and effort into their work just as everyone else. This region free is to accept the conditoins of Koreans living and practicing abroad. If korean teams want to flood the other regions, that is their investment. It's the same reason as foreigners going to Korea to get better. This time Koreans are going abroad for better salary or a better chance into the tournament.
|
Korean vs foreigner is awesome because of the they hype and hope. Like when Naniwa beat nestea like twice at MLG that was amazing. I mean sure foreigners will lose and stuff most of the time, but it makes a great storyline and it is super exciting.
|
On April 04 2013 23:01 nottapro wrote:
Ya, give the Europeans and American's their own tournament. I wouldn't watch it, but they should definitely have one for the sake of people with overwhelming national pride.
Agreed. They should just make exclusive tournaments for NA / EU if for no other reason than to put to bed the idea that people are actually interested in watching that shit (as if NASL didn't already prove that).
|
Actually I am really tired of Koreans dominating every major tournament. I don't watch GOM or proleague. So I don't really identify with most of these Korean players. The guys I do identify with as a fan don't amount to much. In the tournaments they do go to with Koreans. It hurts my interest as a fan. I am not looking for a break out foreigner. I just want to watch people on a measured skill level.
So yes if you're asking if there is an audience for foreign only tournaments, there is. I don't see why we can't have both.
To me this is another thing we got wrong in Wol. We assumed more tournaments was good. It wasn't. It was an over-saturation of content which didn't help in the long run. Just the same we assumed that their was no audience for foreign only tournaments.
The interest is there. Trust me on this. Someone has to give it a shot.
|
I want everybody to be able to compete with everybody so that you don't have to get people on 24-hour long flights all the time in order to have a tournament at the highest level. I'd love if some of the highest level of gameplay was also available right under my nose.
|
On April 04 2013 22:53 Technique wrote:
And personally i pick players i cheer for based on their play styles, i was a big Moon fan in wc3tft, but never watched interviews or anything like that... just fan of his game.
Pretty much this. just fan of his game is the biggest factor. sc2 has nothing of this, truly absolutely nothing. Lets see a sc2 game without scoreboard, we all arent able to detect which player is playing. in wc3 is was very easy to detect due to his own "unique" playstyle (especially Moon, Zacard, Grubby, ToD, Sky, TH000, TeD, FoV and Lyn).
|
We want foreigners to compete with Koreans because people want to see it. Especially when the foreigner does the "unthinkable" and beats the Korean. Although it was a double edged sword (ie infestor op in WoL). People also want to see less turtle and a little more aggression. But that was not the discussion if we did region lock people tournament wise, people would asterisk all of the WCS America, and Europe events. Then again NASL wasnt too bad of a dream. Still WCS is a good thing minus for that Korean part (look into another thread for that MC rant.)
|
On April 05 2013 00:14 Dingodile wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 22:53 Technique wrote:
And personally i pick players i cheer for based on their play styles, i was a big Moon fan in wc3tft, but never watched interviews or anything like that... just fan of his game. Pretty much this. just fan of his game is the biggest factor. sc2 has nothing of this, truly absolutely nothing. Lets see a sc2 game without scoreboard, we all arent able to detect which player is playing. in wc3 is was very easy to detect due to his own "unique" playstyle (especially Moon, Zacard, Grubby, ToD, Sky, TH000, TeD, FoV and Lyn).
Nah, that's not quite true. I'm a huge fan of RoX.KIS.fraer but I have never seen a single interview with him. It's purely based on the way he plays, he caught my eye in weekly cups and I got more and more interested until he started beating players like Bomber and GuMiho online and Puma, Vampire, Stephano or TheStC at DreamHack.
I probably couldn't recognize him in a Bo1 match, but he still has a very unique style that makes him stand out in my opinion.
|
I only want to watch the best playing against the best. That's why I don't understand women's sports. I get that they want to be athletic at a competitive level, but I don't get why I should want to watch it. If they're good enough to compete in the NHL, NBA, etc, then awesome!
I like watching people who are the best at ANYTHING. Sports, video games, music, aerobics, writing, whatever. I am not the hardcore Starcraft 2 fan that this thread is probably leaning towards, but I am a part of the "swing vote" - those of us who would like to watch well organized competition at the top but not worry about the din from whence the best came.
|
I don't care about bad players. Really WCS should be Korea/EU. It's not like (back to soccer metaphor) the Champions League randomly includes MLS teams just because they want to let the North Americans participate. If the NA scene wants to be self-sustaining that's fine, but to put them on pair with players of real skill is a joke.
|
i think its just the korean culture that they can have team houses and play for 10 hours a day
also i'm pretty sure they all help each other and stuff where in foreign team houses everyone just streams ladder all day for a quick few bucks
|
I care a lot about nationality and personality in tournaments. I think koreans tend to be boring and respectful at all times and that's simply not interesting to me anymore, regardless of how good the games are.
The current model is fine, at the worst we'll see a bunch of foreigners in the WCS tournaments. At the best we'll see one a couple of them in the finals and the overall skill level of foreigners will improve, with team houses being created in America/Europe.
1 NA spot, 2 EU spots would be insulting, and would probably turn me off from competitive starcraft viewing altogether.
Also understand that the game is so volatile one good day or one bad day can make the best player in the world go down early, completely skewing other results. So 1 NA spot and 2 EU spots could see the single best player in NA drop down in the RO4 for instance, and the 2 best players in Europe drop out before the finals as well. Doesn't mean that the skill levels would be any more even, though I'm personally of the opinion that there are plenty of foreigners that can do well against the top 16 koreans in a western style tournament (long, faster paced, inability to prepare specifically for opponents for weeks).
|
On April 05 2013 00:19 dinosrwar wrote:
I don't care about bad players. Really WCS should be Korea/EU. It's not like (back to soccer metaphor) the Champions League randomly includes MLS teams just because they want to let the North Americans participate. If the NA scene wants to be self-sustaining that's fine, but to put them on pair with players of real skill is a joke.
The Champions League doesn't include MLS teams because it's the UEFA Champions League.
WCS does suggest that it's a global event, so take it more like the FIFA Club World Cup where the Champions League winner gets matched up with weaker teams from other continents.
You don't see people running around going "Al-Ahly trash club what are they doing in there".
|
On April 04 2013 17:42 norlock wrote:
This is what I think is the best solutions, in WCS 13 players are seeded from Korea and 2 players from EU and 1 player from NA. This means it is balanced between the regions compared to their skill. And also for Koreans not an handicap, and the need to fly over to compete.
Not acceptable for the American standard, we are the best nation in the entire world, this is a disgrace to our ideal and our flag that our fathers fought so hard for, we will not be look down and pissed on by the idea of charity, giving us one seed? we don't need to be given any seed, we will take them from the koreans with real skills, just like what happened in the korean wars.
In huk we trust, usa usa usa usa~
|
What I don't understand is, why should an american mean more to me then a korean?
I'm neither..
|
On April 04 2013 18:57 Kinon wrote:
Can someone explain me why Catz's opinions are taken so seriously? I'm farily new to the ESports, but I chechk his profile and he doesn't seem like an amazing player with lots of achievements. His team didn't seem to have that much succes (except for the koreans in it).
I'm baffled that his stream has 2-3k viewers, while better players have under 1k. Could someone please explain to me?
I love this question because it indirectly addresses the OP perfectly. This is the very reason why we shouldn't just have koreans fighting koreans all the time. It's all about what people want to see.
Right now there is a market for all korean tournaments, for foreigner vs korean tournaments but I will be very interested in seeing how well a tournament could do with all foreigners - assuming it has the production level of the other two. I think there could be a lot of success to be had if you exploited the fact that people really care about some of the personalities within the foreigner community.
Also:
On April 04 2013 18:36 shell wrote:
What i don't understand is why the people that only want to see korean players be so mad and vocal against the people(me included) that feel that some tournaments should be foreigner oriented.
You have the GSL, PL and GSTL and possibly more leagues incoming.. tournaments that i also see and follow and pay for them.
Don't we have the same right? I love to know who is the best NA player or best EU player.. i don't need to always see the same players since i follow them when they play at "home"
This. Exactly. Times a million.
|
On April 05 2013 00:19 dinosrwar wrote:
I don't care about bad players. Really WCS should be Korea/EU. It's not like (back to soccer metaphor) the Champions League randomly includes MLS teams just because they want to let the North Americans participate. If the NA scene wants to be self-sustaining that's fine, but to put them on pair with players of real skill is a joke.
What the hell? Well, let's cut out some more fat. If you want WCS to be the best of the best, might as well just cut out EU as well. Compared to Korea, nothing stands.
"To put them on par with players of real skill?" Koreans dominate EVERYONE else. Everyone. That includes EU. Let's not try to single out NA here...
As for NA leagues? It won't work. Isn't NASL a great example? It's painful to say it, but yes, NA players need to work harder. They need to start focusing more on their mechanics. The fact that they don't means that they'll just keep falling further and further behind.
Execution is key. You lack on it, and you will fail.
|
why do we want them to compete with koreans? boy thats a knee jerk reaction isnt it? i mean you really didnt stop and just think things though sideways backwards or forwards ?? i mean
here are things t oconsider
( evidence to support my claim): bw . big in korea.. smal foreigner following and no chance in hell competing against them on a regular basis . the flip side.. when sc2 was released and the foreigners were 99% as good as the koreans. it was exciting it bred story lines it bred what thr scene became . compared to bw it was monolithic
the only way a foreigner can compete against a korean on an even field is if they establish training centers kinda like what seoul is for the koreans. we need to establish a N A and a E U center. and that wont ever happen if korean is the only place that matters on earth. for sc2.
soo we need regoinal Gsl like tournaments that push the foreigners to train more. harder and closer. that leads to being able to compete with the koreans.
which means alot more viewership/ bigger esports events.// more sponsors.
soo when you ask the question should we ? im going to ask you. why the hell not?
|
[/QUOTE]
Not acceptable for the American standard, we are the best nation in the entire world. we will take them from the koreans with real skills, just like what happened in the korean wars.
[/QUOTE]
i can just hope that this stupid, arrogant and crazy comment is pure sarcasm my friend...
|
For those who want foreigners only, you can watch Team Liquid Legacy Starleague.
|
I'm fine with WCS setup, but I agree it needs to be changed as far as rewarding goes in regions. Something along the lines of
Blizzcon Qualification Point Weight
1 NA point = 1 qualification point
1 EU point = 2 qualification points
1 KR point = 5 qualification points
Seasonal finals:
GSL/OSL: Round of 8 players
EU:.......... Round of 4 players
NA:.......... Top 3 players (extra 3rd place match needed)
Wildcard:.. Extra player from host region (whatever decides this extra, I don't have a good idea for yet)
Price Money Split:
Korea:.. 55%
Eu:....... 30%
NA:...... 15%
This is the only way for all of this to be fair and make any sense at all. If koreans want to leave korea and play in NA/EU for less competition, that's fine, but they're gonna earn less money and points by doing so. If NAs/EUs want to rise up to the challenge and play korea, their success would be rewards with more money/points as well. This model is followed by almost all pretigious leagues like Champions league. Not every european league gets same number of sports and etc
Blizz plz listen to me lol The numbers/%s may not be exact or anything like that, but I have the right idea. Please don't make it even
|
Maybe ad a poll on why people watch these tournaments. I, for one, watch because I want to see my favourite (mostly national/European/foreign) players compete for a decent prize pool and with good production.
|
Completely agree with the OP...
I've always though that the main problem with the NA/EU scene is not with the players, but the teams. NA/EU teams that prefer to spend tons of money on importing Korean talent instead of promoting local, potentially future stars (EG being the best/ worst example). I understand why this happens but as long as this will be the case, there really is no motivation for a young person to dedicate to much time in trying to become a pro...he has no support. The only alternative is to act as a "Joker" and "Streamer" hoping to bring value to a team by any way possible...to become a "personality".
This "personalities" then act all buthurt that they can't win tournaments and ask for special treatment.
|
On April 05 2013 00:41 koonst wrote:
why do we want them to compete with koreans? boy thats a knee jerk reaction isnt it? i mean you really didnt stop and just think things though sideways backwards or forwards ?? i mean
here are things t oconsider
( evidence to support my claim): bw . big in korea.. smal foreigner following and no chance in hell competing against them on a regular basis . the flip side.. when sc2 was released and the foreigners were 99% as good as the koreans. it was exciting it bred story lines it bred what thr scene became . compared to bw it was monolithic
the only way a foreigner can compete against a korean on an even field is if they establish training centers kinda like what seoul is for the koreans. we need to establish a N A and a E U center. and that wont ever happen if korean is the only place that matters on earth. for sc2.
soo we need regoinal Gsl like tournaments that push the foreigners to train more. harder and closer. that leads to being able to compete with the koreans.
which means alot more viewership/ bigger esports events.// more sponsors.
soo when you ask the question should we ? im going to ask you. why the hell not?
because of our pride, we will not be look down up on by the rest of the world that we ran from the highest level of competition in order to feel good about ourselves by giving ourselves blow jobs, we will take all the money from the koreans with real skill not trickery. That's the American way, where is your pride? where is your honor? where is your competitive spirit?
In huk we trust, USA USA USA USA!!
|
If you are going to do that you might as well just make it Korea only because non will have a chance to qualify,this way you might have a few foreigners make it to ro8 or even ro4 if not than the 3 foreigners will surely have no chance.
And it won't "encourage" the growth of the scene, it will encourage the growth of Korea.
Even if you "take their money away" Europeans and Americans won't become Koreans, I could bet that for every foreign player if they had to chose between practicing for 14 hours or not making money they would get the hell out and go to college or find a job.
If you look at most of the successful foreigner in strategy game in general they are people like Grubby and Stephano, people that quite college for an year to try the game and became really good based on their tactics, that's why I would assume you see foreigners doing better at the beginning of BW, WC3 and SC2 than toward the end... because there is still shit to figure out.
I don't think 99% of the people you see playing starcraft outside of Korea have the mentality or live in the conditions where it would be enjoyable for them to literally train 10 to 14 hours a day for years and years to than ( sometimes ) come to fame and win about the same amount of money you would if you would have put all those hours into university ( do note that in most European countries going to a university is much cheaper than in America ).
Koreans can ( imo ) play that much for that long because :
a) incentive due to their crazy educational system
b) incentive because they can literally become nation wide celebrities and most of them probably see starcraft much like we see footbal here or as Americans see basketball
c)a place where they can do that type of stuff without having thousands of dollars saved up to keep themselves alive or being forced to move to another country
|
We must stop feeding prize money to foreigners. There should be 8 Koreans at every tournament so foreigners would need to adjust to become just as good as Koreans to get money. Now with all the regionals they won't need to compete versus the best to big win cash and that will just reward their laziness.
|
On April 05 2013 01:09 Aterons_toss wrote:
If you are going to do that you might as well just make it Korea only because non will have a chance to qualify,this way you might have a few foreigners make it to ro8 or even ro4 if not than the 3 foreigners will surely have no chance.
And it won't "encourage" the growth of the scene, it will encourage the growth of Korea.
Even if you "take their money away" Europeans and Americans won't become Koreans, I could bet that for every foreign player if they had to chose between practicing for 14 hours or not making money they would get the hell out and go to college or find a job.
If you look at most of the successful foreigner in strategy game in general they are people like Grubby and Stephano, people that quite college for an year to try the game and became really good based on their tactics, that's why I would assume you see foreigners doing better at the beginning of BW, WC3 and SC2 than toward the end... because there is still shit to figure out.
I don't think 99% of the people you see playing starcraft outside of Korea have the mentality or live in the conditions where it would be enjoyable for them to literally train 10 to 14 hours a day for years and years to than ( sometimes ) come to fame and win about the same amount of money you would if you would have put all those hours into university ( do note that in most European countries going to a university is much cheaper than in America ).
Koreans can ( imo ) play that much for that long because :
a) incentive due to their crazy educational system
b) incentive because they can literally become nation wide celebrities and most of them probably see starcraft much like we see footbal here or as Americans see basketball
c)a place where they can do that type of stuff without having thousands of dollars saved up to keep themselves alive or being forced to move to another country
Starcraft was not even in the top 10 games played in Korea... The BW nation wide celebrity status is long gone. They are better because they practice a lot more in an organized structure instead of just playing a few ladder games when you feel like it the way most foreigners do.
|
I for one, have no desire what so ever to see lesser foreign players beat top Koreans. I want to see Flash ROFL stomp everybody he faces. That is what makes me happy, watching the very best dominate. I also enjoy the overall attitude from Korea which is one of good manner. This makes it very easy for me to cheer for the top Koreans as they roll through tournament after tournament.
|
On April 05 2013 01:09 Aterons_toss wrote:
If you are going to do that you might as well just make it Korea only because non will have a chance to qualify,this way you might have a few foreigners make it to ro8 or even ro4 if not than the 3 foreigners will surely have no chance.
And it won't "encourage" the growth of the scene, it will encourage the growth of Korea.
Even if you "take their money away" Europeans and Americans won't become Koreans, I could bet that for every foreign player if they had to chose between practicing for 14 hours or not making money they would get the hell out and go to college or find a job.
If you look at most of the successful foreigner in strategy game in general they are people like Grubby and Stephano, people that quite college for an year to try the game and became really good based on their tactics, that's why I would assume you see foreigners doing better at the beginning of BW, WC3 and SC2 than toward the end... because there is still shit to figure out.
I don't think 99% of the people you see playing starcraft outside of Korea have the mentality or live in the conditions where it would be enjoyable for them to literally train 10 to 14 hours a day for years and years to than ( sometimes ) come to fame and win about the same amount of money you would if you would have put all those hours into university ( do note that in most European countries going to a university is much cheaper than in America ).
Koreans can ( imo ) play that much for that long because :
a) incentive due to their crazy educational system
b) incentive because they can literally become nation wide celebrities and most of them probably see starcraft much like we see footbal here or as Americans see basketball
c)a place where they can do that type of stuff without having thousands of dollars saved up to keep themselves alive or being forced to move to another country
practicing 10 to 14 hours in a well structured team house in the exact same environment as the Koreans will not produce the same skills. Let me give you an example, Idra did that korean team house thing for years, and nony still came along came out of his 5 year retirement and trained for 2 weeks at his house in USA and proceed to roflstomp idra without that korean team house environment.
saying koreans are better because of their educational system, because of their culture, because of their race is so wrong, do you think their education and culture and race allow ppl like mvp, taejja and flash and many others grind through the pain that is carpal tunnel and refuse to let up? and then surgically repair the wrist and keep at it?
Contributing the each individual player's achievement to their race and culture is racism. Ya even if it's a positive praise, you are taking away the glory from the person and giving it to their race, and say their culture produced it.
|
Let's just let the numbers do the talking,
I wonder how many people would tune in to watch NA's very own Code A. I think an NA/EU-only tournament is ok for those with overwhelming nationalistic pride but we all know the competition in those would pretty much be a farce.
SC2 fans are not like LoL's, idk why but LoL esports grew in a way that made their fans think that their local players were actually the best in the world, that's why a lot of people still think TSM got robbed in the S2 finals and why Dignitas vs. CLG gets 100k viewers while SKT vs CJ gets 5k. SC2 isn't like that, there were koreans here since the beginning showing what it means to be good so the vast majority of us are aware that foreigners just straight up suck in comparison. I think it's a bit too late to change that conception and that will translate to poor viewership for NA's WCS in average. I know I won't be watching but that's just me but of course I could be wrong too so let's just wait and see.
|
On April 05 2013 01:28 Kergy wrote:
Let's just let the numbers do the talking,
I wonder how many people would tune in to watch NA's very own Code A. I think an NA/EU-only tournament is ok for those with overwhelming nationalistic pride but we all know the competition in those would pretty much be a farce.
SC2 fans are not like LoL's, idk why but LoL esports grew in a way that made their fans think that their local players were actually the best in the world, that's why a lot of people still think TSM got robbed in the S2 finals and why Dignitas vs. CLG gets 100k viewers while SKT vs CJ gets 5k. SC2 isn't like that, there were koreans here since the beginning showing what it means to be good so the vast majority of us are aware that foreigners just straight up suck in comparison. I think it's a bit too late to change that conception and that will translate to poor viewership for NA's WCS in average. I know I won't be watching but that's just me but of course I could be wrong too so let's just wait and see.
Funny you talk about Code A, because I remember a time Code A consisted pretty much of snarf games as well. ^.^
But given enough time, it motivated enough players to become so good, that Code A became incredibly good.
|
The problem with using NASL is that it wasn't an exclusive NA/EU tournament, ffs NASL1 had Koreans like Boxer invited. There really hasn't been a major NA tournament that has been exclusive to NA ever.
I think it's something that we as foreigners need to give the motivation players need. Koreans still have GSL, MLG, and all of the other shit they can dominate but frankly it's getting tiring, and is more stagnant than the SC game itself. More NA tournaments means more opportunity for foreigners to give a shit about playing, and being able to win something. Many good points have been brought up about gaming as a professional industry, and that the money really isn't there compared to over in Seoul, and South Korea in general.
We don't have that sort of support like the koreans do to make it far easier for them to sustain themselves. Sure koreans come to the NA teams for salaries that are "better" than the Korean counterparts for all you know that's entirely false, and they just want to play in NA for the big payouts like MLG, and the sort that they can ez farm  . No one ever said at any point that the tournaments that are region locked should be huge multi-national level payouts...ever...just because it's region locked doesn't mean it's an MLG with a $100,000 prize pool for Top 8...jesus. Something definitely needs to be done though or else I fear Korea will once again be the only place that is, and ever will be Starcraft.
|
On April 05 2013 01:28 Kergy wrote:
Let's just let the numbers do the talking,
I wonder how many people would tune in to watch NA's very own Code A. I think an NA/EU-only tournament is ok for those with overwhelming nationalistic pride but we all know the competition in those would pretty much be a farce.
SC2 fans are not like LoL's, idk why but LoL esports grew in a way that made their fans think that their local players were actually the best in the world, that's why a lot of people still think TSM got robbed in the S2 finals and why Dignitas vs. CLG gets 100k viewers while SKT vs CJ gets 5k. SC2 isn't like that, there were koreans here since the beginning showing what it means to be good so the vast majority of us are aware that foreigners just straight up suck in comparison. I think it's a bit too late to change that conception and that will translate to poor viewership for NA's WCS in average. I know I won't be watching but that's just me but of course I could be wrong too so let's just wait and see.
I would disagree in that the vast majority of the LoL fanbase understands that the Koreans are the best. You are right in that Korean/Chinese LoL tournaments don't get the viewers that LCS gets, but that's only because they are not as easily accessible as NA/EU tournaments are.
|
American/Eu only tournaments will just turn the scene into BW again. Foreigners will only wanna compete in these non korean tournaments for a chance to lose money without actually putting in the work to compete against koreans. Its just admitting that koreans will be better than them because they dont want to work hard enough.
The benefit of American only tournament would be that if a serious team wanted to get a team house to win these tournaments and still compete against koreans in other tournaments.
|
On April 05 2013 01:27 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 01:09 Aterons_toss wrote:
If you are going to do that you might as well just make it Korea only because non will have a chance to qualify,this way you might have a few foreigners make it to ro8 or even ro4 if not than the 3 foreigners will surely have no chance.
And it won't "encourage" the growth of the scene, it will encourage the growth of Korea.
Even if you "take their money away" Europeans and Americans won't become Koreans, I could bet that for every foreign player if they had to chose between practicing for 14 hours or not making money they would get the hell out and go to college or find a job.
If you look at most of the successful foreigner in strategy game in general they are people like Grubby and Stephano, people that quite college for an year to try the game and became really good based on their tactics, that's why I would assume you see foreigners doing better at the beginning of BW, WC3 and SC2 than toward the end... because there is still shit to figure out.
I don't think 99% of the people you see playing starcraft outside of Korea have the mentality or live in the conditions where it would be enjoyable for them to literally train 10 to 14 hours a day for years and years to than ( sometimes ) come to fame and win about the same amount of money you would if you would have put all those hours into university ( do note that in most European countries going to a university is much cheaper than in America ).
Koreans can ( imo ) play that much for that long because :
a) incentive due to their crazy educational system
b) incentive because they can literally become nation wide celebrities and most of them probably see starcraft much like we see footbal here or as Americans see basketball
c)a place where they can do that type of stuff without having thousands of dollars saved up to keep themselves alive or being forced to move to another country practicing 10 to 14 hours in a well structured team house in the exact same environment as the Koreans will not produce the same skills. Let me give you an example, Idra did that korean team house thing for years, and nony still came along came out of his 5 year retirement and trained for 2 weeks at his house in USA and proceed to roflstomp idra without that korean team house environment. saying koreans are better because of their educational system, because of their culture, because of their race is so wrong, do you think their education and culture and race allow ppl like mvp, taejja and flash and many others grind through the pain that is carpal tunnel and refuse to let up? and then surgically repair the wrist and keep at it? Contributing the each individual player's achievement to their race and culture is racism. Ya even if it's a positive praise, you are taking away the glory from the person and giving it to their race, and say their culture produced it.
Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea.
Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism.
|
Something I've always wondered, what makes a Korean professional team different than a North American professional team like EG-TL? Do the Koreans simply practice a lot more, or are the pros in Korea paid higher since the Esport is a lot bigger over there? Does the general Eastern cultural emphasis on incredibly articulate work ethic and flow play a part in how well the Koreans perform?
|
Stop giving yourselves excuses for sucking, look at stephano, he's not a product of korean culture, nor practice environment and he's been taking korean moneys for the past 2 years. Now look at idra he was grinding away in korea for a good 3 years before sc2 came out, and where is he now? It is not the practice environment that produce the results, it's the player that produce the results, stop giving excuses and get better, play smarter. This mentality of "not fair their culture is better at sc2 than ours, there is nothing we can do" has no substance, it's all whining, the koreans don't start out with 7 workers every game. The koreans want to succeed in this as badly as they need to breath, keep up with that intensity instead of whining about it.
|
On April 05 2013 01:44 rei wrote:
Stop giving yourselves excuses for sucking, look at stephano, he's not a product of korean culture, nor practice environment and he's been taking korean moneys for the past 2 years. Now look at idra he was grinding away in korea for a good 3 years before sc2 came out, and where is he now? It is not the practice environment that produce the results, it's the player that produce the results, stop giving excuses and get better, play smarter. This mentality of "not fair their culture is better at sc2 than ours, there is nothing we can do" has no substance, it's all whining, the koreans don't start out with 7 workers every game. The koreans want to succeed in this as badly as they need to breath, keep up with that intensity instead of whining about it.
Your reading skills must be abysmal or you simply ignore my posts. I'm not even a supporter of foreign players to begin with, but I want to see the best possible play which is coming from Korea, yet you really don't have to be a genius to realize that one can only push its level that far as the player base does allow. Why do you think the level of Korean players does decrease when staying outside of Korea? The level here is simply worse and at some point there's no way to improve, because there is no one giving you a challenge.
If you never encounter timings or encounter timings that arrive 30 seconds late compared to a Korean pro, how are you supposed to be ready and how do you learn to defend it? If you don't get that simple logic discussing with you makes no sense. A few very talented and gifted players rising near Korean level doesn't make the general fact untrue.
|
On April 05 2013 01:48 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 01:44 rei wrote:
Stop giving yourselves excuses for sucking, look at stephano, he's not a product of korean culture, nor practice environment and he's been taking korean moneys for the past 2 years. Now look at idra he was grinding away in korea for a good 3 years before sc2 came out, and where is he now? It is not the practice environment that produce the results, it's the player that produce the results, stop giving excuses and get better, play smarter. This mentality of "not fair their culture is better at sc2 than ours, there is nothing we can do" has no substance, it's all whining, the koreans don't start out with 7 workers every game. The koreans want to succeed in this as badly as they need to breath, keep up with that intensity instead of whining about it. Your reading skills must be abysmal or you simply ignore my posts. I'm not even a supporter of foreign players to begin with, but I want to see the best possible play which is coming from Korea, yet you really don't have to be a genius to realize that one can only push its level that far as the player base does allow. Why do you think the level of Korean players does decrease when staying outside of Korea? The level here is simply worse and at some point there's no way to improve, because there is no one giving you a challenge. If you never encounter timings or encounter timings that arrive 30 seconds late compared to a Korean pro, how are you supposed to be ready and how do you learn to defend it? If you don't get that simple logic discussing with you makes no sense. A few very talented and gifted players rising near Korean level doesn't make the general fact untrue.
You need to stop responding to the "Try harder, practice more," posters. There is enough information as to why the foreign scene is behind Korea for them to know that is not a matter of practice or man hours put in. They are either trolling or just choose to believe that the foreigners are truly lazier than Koreans(which does not hold up for other professional competitions, oddly enough).
The simple fact of the matter is that the Korean pro-gaming system is better than anything we have in NA or EU. They are better able to find and refine talent. NA and EU have talented players that don't even know they are talented, but there is no clear path for those players to test their metal and grow.
|
On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 01:27 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:09 Aterons_toss wrote:
If you are going to do that you might as well just make it Korea only because non will have a chance to qualify,this way you might have a few foreigners make it to ro8 or even ro4 if not than the 3 foreigners will surely have no chance.
And it won't "encourage" the growth of the scene, it will encourage the growth of Korea.
Even if you "take their money away" Europeans and Americans won't become Koreans, I could bet that for every foreign player if they had to chose between practicing for 14 hours or not making money they would get the hell out and go to college or find a job.
If you look at most of the successful foreigner in strategy game in general they are people like Grubby and Stephano, people that quite college for an year to try the game and became really good based on their tactics, that's why I would assume you see foreigners doing better at the beginning of BW, WC3 and SC2 than toward the end... because there is still shit to figure out.
I don't think 99% of the people you see playing starcraft outside of Korea have the mentality or live in the conditions where it would be enjoyable for them to literally train 10 to 14 hours a day for years and years to than ( sometimes ) come to fame and win about the same amount of money you would if you would have put all those hours into university ( do note that in most European countries going to a university is much cheaper than in America ).
Koreans can ( imo ) play that much for that long because :
a) incentive due to their crazy educational system
b) incentive because they can literally become nation wide celebrities and most of them probably see starcraft much like we see footbal here or as Americans see basketball
c)a place where they can do that type of stuff without having thousands of dollars saved up to keep themselves alive or being forced to move to another country practicing 10 to 14 hours in a well structured team house in the exact same environment as the Koreans will not produce the same skills. Let me give you an example, Idra did that korean team house thing for years, and nony still came along came out of his 5 year retirement and trained for 2 weeks at his house in USA and proceed to roflstomp idra without that korean team house environment. saying koreans are better because of their educational system, because of their culture, because of their race is so wrong, do you think their education and culture and race allow ppl like mvp, taejja and flash and many others grind through the pain that is carpal tunnel and refuse to let up? and then surgically repair the wrist and keep at it? Contributing the each individual player's achievement to their race and culture is racism. Ya even if it's a positive praise, you are taking away the glory from the person and giving it to their race, and say their culture produced it. Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea. Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism.
"I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea"
Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid.
"when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits,"
you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts.
|
On April 05 2013 01:31 Headshot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 01:28 Kergy wrote:
Let's just let the numbers do the talking,
I wonder how many people would tune in to watch NA's very own Code A. I think an NA/EU-only tournament is ok for those with overwhelming nationalistic pride but we all know the competition in those would pretty much be a farce.
SC2 fans are not like LoL's, idk why but LoL esports grew in a way that made their fans think that their local players were actually the best in the world, that's why a lot of people still think TSM got robbed in the S2 finals and why Dignitas vs. CLG gets 100k viewers while SKT vs CJ gets 5k. SC2 isn't like that, there were koreans here since the beginning showing what it means to be good so the vast majority of us are aware that foreigners just straight up suck in comparison. I think it's a bit too late to change that conception and that will translate to poor viewership for NA's WCS in average. I know I won't be watching but that's just me but of course I could be wrong too so let's just wait and see. I would disagree in that the vast majority of the LoL fanbase understands that the Koreans are the best. You are right in that Korean/Chinese LoL tournaments don't get the viewers that LCS gets, but that's only because they are not as easily accessible as NA/EU tournaments are.
I really don't think so, reading reddit or the LoL froums makes you think that most of them are completely ignorant of what's going on in the global scene and only watch/care about their local scenes. That might change a bit in the upcoming cross-region matches or the season finals when the asians teams roflstomp everyone. Also, SWL is the tournament with arguably the best teams in the world (China/Korea) and it airs at the same time as LCS NA but they're lucky to get more than 3k viewers.
Thinking about it, it's a good thing for a local scene to have 'ignorant' fans. There's a small SC2 community here in Peru which consists mostly of people that we would consider 'casuals' and are unaware of the international scene. Fenix is quite popular in the gaming communities and people think of him as one of the best players in the world because he won the local WCG and stomps every peruvian he plays against. That brought him personal sponsorships and he's doing quite well in here.
It would be ok if a similar thing happened in NA/EU but as I said, I think it's too late for that. Most fans are already aware of how the SC2 scene works and how koreans are vastly superior to their local heroes.
|
i wouldnt mind NA only NA tournament and same for EU, happens in soccer so why not. NA would be like kleague and KR premiere league. just take the risk and see if it'll survive, if not, feed the koreans once again.
|
On April 05 2013 01:57 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 01:48 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:44 rei wrote:
Stop giving yourselves excuses for sucking, look at stephano, he's not a product of korean culture, nor practice environment and he's been taking korean moneys for the past 2 years. Now look at idra he was grinding away in korea for a good 3 years before sc2 came out, and where is he now? It is not the practice environment that produce the results, it's the player that produce the results, stop giving excuses and get better, play smarter. This mentality of "not fair their culture is better at sc2 than ours, there is nothing we can do" has no substance, it's all whining, the koreans don't start out with 7 workers every game. The koreans want to succeed in this as badly as they need to breath, keep up with that intensity instead of whining about it. Your reading skills must be abysmal or you simply ignore my posts. I'm not even a supporter of foreign players to begin with, but I want to see the best possible play which is coming from Korea, yet you really don't have to be a genius to realize that one can only push its level that far as the player base does allow. Why do you think the level of Korean players does decrease when staying outside of Korea? The level here is simply worse and at some point there's no way to improve, because there is no one giving you a challenge. If you never encounter timings or encounter timings that arrive 30 seconds late compared to a Korean pro, how are you supposed to be ready and how do you learn to defend it? If you don't get that simple logic discussing with you makes no sense. A few very talented and gifted players rising near Korean level doesn't make the general fact untrue. The simple fact of the matter is that the Korean pro-gaming system is better than anything we have in NA or EU. They are better able to find and refine talent. NA and EU have talented players that don't even know they are talented, but there is no clear path for those players to test their metal and grow.
Thank you. I was simply curious given I know a lot of Foreign Pros play the game as much as if not more than many of the Korean Pros do.
|
The point of the system just went over everyone's head. You can't simultaneously say "work harder, get better" if you remove the incentive for getting better. Right now, the NA scene has very little tournament infrastructure between someone just getting to GM level and Code-S level tournaments like MLG and NASL. An 18 year old who just finished high school may be rank 100 on the NA ladder will have to make the choice "do I go to university, or do I go pro?" Right now, I'd imagine that that choice is really easy: go to university and play part time. The difference in results won't make that much of a difference-- placing 64th at an open MLG is approximately the same result as placing 72nd or 45th.
In order to be able to say "work harder, get better" there needs to be something that you can realistically work towards. The case of the 18 year old making that decision becomes a lot different if he actually has the opportunity to win enough money and gain enough notoriety to support himself. Sponsors will care a lot more about a team with players who place top 3 in the American WCS compared to the same team which has results like "we were the top foreigner placing 45th in this tournament of Koreans."
I don't think people understand that telling a top 100 NA player to "just keep practicing, I don't care about you until you are Code-S level" is really demotivating.
|
On April 05 2013 01:48 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 01:44 rei wrote:
Stop giving yourselves excuses for sucking, look at stephano, he's not a product of korean culture, nor practice environment and he's been taking korean moneys for the past 2 years. Now look at idra he was grinding away in korea for a good 3 years before sc2 came out, and where is he now? It is not the practice environment that produce the results, it's the player that produce the results, stop giving excuses and get better, play smarter. This mentality of "not fair their culture is better at sc2 than ours, there is nothing we can do" has no substance, it's all whining, the koreans don't start out with 7 workers every game. The koreans want to succeed in this as badly as they need to breath, keep up with that intensity instead of whining about it. Your reading skills must be abysmal or you simply ignore my posts. I'm not even a supporter of foreign players to begin with, but I want to see the best possible play which is coming from Korea, yet you really don't have to be a genius to realize that one can only push its level that far as the player base does allow. Why do you think the level of Korean players does decrease when staying outside of Korea? The level here is simply worse and at some point there's no way to improve, because there is no one giving you a challenge. If you never encounter timings or encounter timings that arrive 30 seconds late compared to a Korean pro, how are you supposed to be ready and how do you learn to defend it? If you don't get that simple logic discussing with you makes no sense. A few very talented and gifted players rising near Korean level doesn't make the general fact untrue.
your ad hominem fallacy is too blatant to be taken serious, an no there is no limit created by the culture, the only limit is the talent of the player. Korean culture don't spawn an extra worker for them when the game starts.
|
On April 05 2013 01:27 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 01:09 Aterons_toss wrote:
If you are going to do that you might as well just make it Korea only because non will have a chance to qualify,this way you might have a few foreigners make it to ro8 or even ro4 if not than the 3 foreigners will surely have no chance.
And it won't "encourage" the growth of the scene, it will encourage the growth of Korea.
Even if you "take their money away" Europeans and Americans won't become Koreans, I could bet that for every foreign player if they had to chose between practicing for 14 hours or not making money they would get the hell out and go to college or find a job.
If you look at most of the successful foreigner in strategy game in general they are people like Grubby and Stephano, people that quite college for an year to try the game and became really good based on their tactics, that's why I would assume you see foreigners doing better at the beginning of BW, WC3 and SC2 than toward the end... because there is still shit to figure out.
I don't think 99% of the people you see playing starcraft outside of Korea have the mentality or live in the conditions where it would be enjoyable for them to literally train 10 to 14 hours a day for years and years to than ( sometimes ) come to fame and win about the same amount of money you would if you would have put all those hours into university ( do note that in most European countries going to a university is much cheaper than in America ).
Koreans can ( imo ) play that much for that long because :
a) incentive due to their crazy educational system
b) incentive because they can literally become nation wide celebrities and most of them probably see starcraft much like we see footbal here or as Americans see basketball
c)a place where they can do that type of stuff without having thousands of dollars saved up to keep themselves alive or being forced to move to another country practicing 10 to 14 hours in a well structured team house in the exact same environment as the Koreans will not produce the same skills. Let me give you an example, Idra did that korean team house thing for years, and nony still came along came out of his 5 year retirement and trained for 2 weeks at his house in USA and proceed to roflstomp idra without that korean team house environment. saying koreans are better because of their educational system, because of their culture, because of their race is so wrong, do you think their education and culture and race allow ppl like mvp, taejja and flash and many others grind through the pain that is carpal tunnel and refuse to let up? and then surgically repair the wrist and keep at it? Contributing the each individual player's achievement to their race and culture is racism. Ya even if it's a positive praise, you are taking away the glory from the person and giving it to their race, and say their culture produced it.
What the hell did you read ?
I said they have more incentive due to the fact that their educational system is much harder than ours thus playing so much starcraft would likely seem like a much better alternative.
I said that in Korea they have Seoul with all the team house and there are non in any major EU or NA cities.
And I said that being a progamer is likely more social accepted there by both friends, relatives and the society in general.
What the hell was racist in my post ?
|
On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:27 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:09 Aterons_toss wrote:
If you are going to do that you might as well just make it Korea only because non will have a chance to qualify,this way you might have a few foreigners make it to ro8 or even ro4 if not than the 3 foreigners will surely have no chance.
And it won't "encourage" the growth of the scene, it will encourage the growth of Korea.
Even if you "take their money away" Europeans and Americans won't become Koreans, I could bet that for every foreign player if they had to chose between practicing for 14 hours or not making money they would get the hell out and go to college or find a job.
If you look at most of the successful foreigner in strategy game in general they are people like Grubby and Stephano, people that quite college for an year to try the game and became really good based on their tactics, that's why I would assume you see foreigners doing better at the beginning of BW, WC3 and SC2 than toward the end... because there is still shit to figure out.
I don't think 99% of the people you see playing starcraft outside of Korea have the mentality or live in the conditions where it would be enjoyable for them to literally train 10 to 14 hours a day for years and years to than ( sometimes ) come to fame and win about the same amount of money you would if you would have put all those hours into university ( do note that in most European countries going to a university is much cheaper than in America ).
Koreans can ( imo ) play that much for that long because :
a) incentive due to their crazy educational system
b) incentive because they can literally become nation wide celebrities and most of them probably see starcraft much like we see footbal here or as Americans see basketball
c)a place where they can do that type of stuff without having thousands of dollars saved up to keep themselves alive or being forced to move to another country practicing 10 to 14 hours in a well structured team house in the exact same environment as the Koreans will not produce the same skills. Let me give you an example, Idra did that korean team house thing for years, and nony still came along came out of his 5 year retirement and trained for 2 weeks at his house in USA and proceed to roflstomp idra without that korean team house environment. saying koreans are better because of their educational system, because of their culture, because of their race is so wrong, do you think their education and culture and race allow ppl like mvp, taejja and flash and many others grind through the pain that is carpal tunnel and refuse to let up? and then surgically repair the wrist and keep at it? Contributing the each individual player's achievement to their race and culture is racism. Ya even if it's a positive praise, you are taking away the glory from the person and giving it to their race, and say their culture produced it. Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea. Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism. "I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts.
Your fact based reasoning is founded on one player, Idra, with is a sample set so small it is useless. Maybe you could use Nony, but the whole clinical depression thing kinda takes the wind out of that argument. I am not sure what the point of your argument is except to yell at foreign players and demand they "work harder" to do better against Korean players.
|
On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:27 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:09 Aterons_toss wrote:
If you are going to do that you might as well just make it Korea only because non will have a chance to qualify,this way you might have a few foreigners make it to ro8 or even ro4 if not than the 3 foreigners will surely have no chance.
And it won't "encourage" the growth of the scene, it will encourage the growth of Korea.
Even if you "take their money away" Europeans and Americans won't become Koreans, I could bet that for every foreign player if they had to chose between practicing for 14 hours or not making money they would get the hell out and go to college or find a job.
If you look at most of the successful foreigner in strategy game in general they are people like Grubby and Stephano, people that quite college for an year to try the game and became really good based on their tactics, that's why I would assume you see foreigners doing better at the beginning of BW, WC3 and SC2 than toward the end... because there is still shit to figure out.
I don't think 99% of the people you see playing starcraft outside of Korea have the mentality or live in the conditions where it would be enjoyable for them to literally train 10 to 14 hours a day for years and years to than ( sometimes ) come to fame and win about the same amount of money you would if you would have put all those hours into university ( do note that in most European countries going to a university is much cheaper than in America ).
Koreans can ( imo ) play that much for that long because :
a) incentive due to their crazy educational system
b) incentive because they can literally become nation wide celebrities and most of them probably see starcraft much like we see footbal here or as Americans see basketball
c)a place where they can do that type of stuff without having thousands of dollars saved up to keep themselves alive or being forced to move to another country practicing 10 to 14 hours in a well structured team house in the exact same environment as the Koreans will not produce the same skills. Let me give you an example, Idra did that korean team house thing for years, and nony still came along came out of his 5 year retirement and trained for 2 weeks at his house in USA and proceed to roflstomp idra without that korean team house environment. saying koreans are better because of their educational system, because of their culture, because of their race is so wrong, do you think their education and culture and race allow ppl like mvp, taejja and flash and many others grind through the pain that is carpal tunnel and refuse to let up? and then surgically repair the wrist and keep at it? Contributing the each individual player's achievement to their race and culture is racism. Ya even if it's a positive praise, you are taking away the glory from the person and giving it to their race, and say their culture produced it. Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea. Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism. "I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts.
Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact.
IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene.
|
On April 05 2013 01:57 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 01:48 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:44 rei wrote:
Stop giving yourselves excuses for sucking, look at stephano, he's not a product of korean culture, nor practice environment and he's been taking korean moneys for the past 2 years. Now look at idra he was grinding away in korea for a good 3 years before sc2 came out, and where is he now? It is not the practice environment that produce the results, it's the player that produce the results, stop giving excuses and get better, play smarter. This mentality of "not fair their culture is better at sc2 than ours, there is nothing we can do" has no substance, it's all whining, the koreans don't start out with 7 workers every game. The koreans want to succeed in this as badly as they need to breath, keep up with that intensity instead of whining about it. Your reading skills must be abysmal or you simply ignore my posts. I'm not even a supporter of foreign players to begin with, but I want to see the best possible play which is coming from Korea, yet you really don't have to be a genius to realize that one can only push its level that far as the player base does allow. Why do you think the level of Korean players does decrease when staying outside of Korea? The level here is simply worse and at some point there's no way to improve, because there is no one giving you a challenge. If you never encounter timings or encounter timings that arrive 30 seconds late compared to a Korean pro, how are you supposed to be ready and how do you learn to defend it? If you don't get that simple logic discussing with you makes no sense. A few very talented and gifted players rising near Korean level doesn't make the general fact untrue. You need to stop responding to the "Try harder, practice more," posters. There is enough information as to why the foreign scene is behind Korea for them to know that is not a matter of practice or man hours put in. They are either trolling or just choose to believe that the foreigners are truly lazier than Koreans(which does not hold up for other professional competitions, oddly enough). The simple fact of the matter is that the Korean pro-gaming system is better than anything we have in NA or EU. They are better able to find and refine talent. NA and EU have talented players that don't even know they are talented, but there is no clear path for those players to test their metal and grow.
Nope, not amount of "try harder and practice more" would help, it's not the system that produces better players, it's the better players that produces the better system. You swap the environment for all the foreigners and korean and the foreigners will still suck. It's the talents that's lacking.
|
On April 04 2013 17:45 LiLSighKoh wrote:
What fun is it if it's a top 8 Korean placing at a tournament like DreamHack? Some people want entertainment, they want the story of a foreigner beating a Korean, others want the best gameplay, which is Korean vs Korean. I'm in favor of the best games that can be played.
Except the story of a foreigner beating a Korean might not happen very often from now on.
Thank god for HotS.
|
On April 05 2013 02:05 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 01:57 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 01:48 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:44 rei wrote:
Stop giving yourselves excuses for sucking, look at stephano, he's not a product of korean culture, nor practice environment and he's been taking korean moneys for the past 2 years. Now look at idra he was grinding away in korea for a good 3 years before sc2 came out, and where is he now? It is not the practice environment that produce the results, it's the player that produce the results, stop giving excuses and get better, play smarter. This mentality of "not fair their culture is better at sc2 than ours, there is nothing we can do" has no substance, it's all whining, the koreans don't start out with 7 workers every game. The koreans want to succeed in this as badly as they need to breath, keep up with that intensity instead of whining about it. Your reading skills must be abysmal or you simply ignore my posts. I'm not even a supporter of foreign players to begin with, but I want to see the best possible play which is coming from Korea, yet you really don't have to be a genius to realize that one can only push its level that far as the player base does allow. Why do you think the level of Korean players does decrease when staying outside of Korea? The level here is simply worse and at some point there's no way to improve, because there is no one giving you a challenge. If you never encounter timings or encounter timings that arrive 30 seconds late compared to a Korean pro, how are you supposed to be ready and how do you learn to defend it? If you don't get that simple logic discussing with you makes no sense. A few very talented and gifted players rising near Korean level doesn't make the general fact untrue. You need to stop responding to the "Try harder, practice more," posters. There is enough information as to why the foreign scene is behind Korea for them to know that is not a matter of practice or man hours put in. They are either trolling or just choose to believe that the foreigners are truly lazier than Koreans(which does not hold up for other professional competitions, oddly enough). The simple fact of the matter is that the Korean pro-gaming system is better than anything we have in NA or EU. They are better able to find and refine talent. NA and EU have talented players that don't even know they are talented, but there is no clear path for those players to test their metal and grow. Nope, not amount of "try harder and practice more" would help, it's not the system that produces better players, it's the better players that produces the better system. You swap the environment for all the foreigners and korean and the foreigners will still suck. It's the talents that's lacking.
So you argument is that Korean players are superior not because of their environment, but do to raw talent? What would you attribute this raw talent to, a genetic advantage or cultural advantage? Or are we assuming that culture is part of environment?
|
After 2 years of watching sc2 I no longer watch games that are Korean vs Korean unless its someone i am personally drawn to like MC.
Like everything else I watch I watch to be entertained Korean vs Korean isn't entertaining for me. Very similar to football, i absolutely love the sport but a game without my home team (the patriots) simply doesn't hold my attention.
I honestly prefer the system where there are more foreigners then Koreans and hopefully only a few Koreans. That way the foreigners get a chance to beat some Koreans which creates an awesome story and if the top 4 are still only Korean then that creates its own interesting storyline because of the 20+ foreigners the Koreans killed on their way to top 4.
|
guys, stop it. it isn't the 10-14 hr training. it is the chopstick culture, according to korean esports representative and i support this claim with zero certainty.
NA and EU starcraft prospects must start using chopsticks for everything.
|
On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:27 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:09 Aterons_toss wrote:
If you are going to do that you might as well just make it Korea only because non will have a chance to qualify,this way you might have a few foreigners make it to ro8 or even ro4 if not than the 3 foreigners will surely have no chance.
And it won't "encourage" the growth of the scene, it will encourage the growth of Korea.
Even if you "take their money away" Europeans and Americans won't become Koreans, I could bet that for every foreign player if they had to chose between practicing for 14 hours or not making money they would get the hell out and go to college or find a job.
If you look at most of the successful foreigner in strategy game in general they are people like Grubby and Stephano, people that quite college for an year to try the game and became really good based on their tactics, that's why I would assume you see foreigners doing better at the beginning of BW, WC3 and SC2 than toward the end... because there is still shit to figure out.
I don't think 99% of the people you see playing starcraft outside of Korea have the mentality or live in the conditions where it would be enjoyable for them to literally train 10 to 14 hours a day for years and years to than ( sometimes ) come to fame and win about the same amount of money you would if you would have put all those hours into university ( do note that in most European countries going to a university is much cheaper than in America ).
Koreans can ( imo ) play that much for that long because :
a) incentive due to their crazy educational system
b) incentive because they can literally become nation wide celebrities and most of them probably see starcraft much like we see footbal here or as Americans see basketball
c)a place where they can do that type of stuff without having thousands of dollars saved up to keep themselves alive or being forced to move to another country practicing 10 to 14 hours in a well structured team house in the exact same environment as the Koreans will not produce the same skills. Let me give you an example, Idra did that korean team house thing for years, and nony still came along came out of his 5 year retirement and trained for 2 weeks at his house in USA and proceed to roflstomp idra without that korean team house environment. saying koreans are better because of their educational system, because of their culture, because of their race is so wrong, do you think their education and culture and race allow ppl like mvp, taejja and flash and many others grind through the pain that is carpal tunnel and refuse to let up? and then surgically repair the wrist and keep at it? Contributing the each individual player's achievement to their race and culture is racism. Ya even if it's a positive praise, you are taking away the glory from the person and giving it to their race, and say their culture produced it. Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea. Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism. "I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts. Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene.
Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342
and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSL
I never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better.
|
On April 05 2013 02:05 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 01:57 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 01:48 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:44 rei wrote:
Stop giving yourselves excuses for sucking, look at stephano, he's not a product of korean culture, nor practice environment and he's been taking korean moneys for the past 2 years. Now look at idra he was grinding away in korea for a good 3 years before sc2 came out, and where is he now? It is not the practice environment that produce the results, it's the player that produce the results, stop giving excuses and get better, play smarter. This mentality of "not fair their culture is better at sc2 than ours, there is nothing we can do" has no substance, it's all whining, the koreans don't start out with 7 workers every game. The koreans want to succeed in this as badly as they need to breath, keep up with that intensity instead of whining about it. Your reading skills must be abysmal or you simply ignore my posts. I'm not even a supporter of foreign players to begin with, but I want to see the best possible play which is coming from Korea, yet you really don't have to be a genius to realize that one can only push its level that far as the player base does allow. Why do you think the level of Korean players does decrease when staying outside of Korea? The level here is simply worse and at some point there's no way to improve, because there is no one giving you a challenge. If you never encounter timings or encounter timings that arrive 30 seconds late compared to a Korean pro, how are you supposed to be ready and how do you learn to defend it? If you don't get that simple logic discussing with you makes no sense. A few very talented and gifted players rising near Korean level doesn't make the general fact untrue. You need to stop responding to the "Try harder, practice more," posters. There is enough information as to why the foreign scene is behind Korea for them to know that is not a matter of practice or man hours put in. They are either trolling or just choose to believe that the foreigners are truly lazier than Koreans(which does not hold up for other professional competitions, oddly enough). The simple fact of the matter is that the Korean pro-gaming system is better than anything we have in NA or EU. They are better able to find and refine talent. NA and EU have talented players that don't even know they are talented, but there is no clear path for those players to test their metal and grow. Nope, not amount of "try harder and practice more" would help, it's not the system that produces better players, it's the better players that produces the better system. You swap the environment for all the foreigners and korean and the foreigners will still suck. It's the talents that's lacking.
Do you really believe what you are writing? You really are saying that there is NO FOREIGN player that is in any way talented? Its hard work and dedication that creates good players, good environment and a schedule, a guide to new and upcoming players. No amount of talent will ever show if the talent isn't developed to begin with. Thats why sport scouts search for young upcoming players that can be refined, they see talent in them... they are not stars on their own. They get stars because of talent and guidance.
For instance, as you quoted Broodwar: I think Draco was talented, but his mindset was bad so he basically fell behind. Mondragon is a good example of being talented as well. A talented person is probably going to have an easier time learning and playing the game, but reaching perfection (or working towards it) takes hard work and dedication. Fast thinking and automatic behaviours are not simply given to you, they are something you work on.
|
On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:27 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:09 Aterons_toss wrote:
If you are going to do that you might as well just make it Korea only because non will have a chance to qualify,this way you might have a few foreigners make it to ro8 or even ro4 if not than the 3 foreigners will surely have no chance.
And it won't "encourage" the growth of the scene, it will encourage the growth of Korea.
Even if you "take their money away" Europeans and Americans won't become Koreans, I could bet that for every foreign player if they had to chose between practicing for 14 hours or not making money they would get the hell out and go to college or find a job.
If you look at most of the successful foreigner in strategy game in general they are people like Grubby and Stephano, people that quite college for an year to try the game and became really good based on their tactics, that's why I would assume you see foreigners doing better at the beginning of BW, WC3 and SC2 than toward the end... because there is still shit to figure out.
I don't think 99% of the people you see playing starcraft outside of Korea have the mentality or live in the conditions where it would be enjoyable for them to literally train 10 to 14 hours a day for years and years to than ( sometimes ) come to fame and win about the same amount of money you would if you would have put all those hours into university ( do note that in most European countries going to a university is much cheaper than in America ).
Koreans can ( imo ) play that much for that long because :
a) incentive due to their crazy educational system
b) incentive because they can literally become nation wide celebrities and most of them probably see starcraft much like we see footbal here or as Americans see basketball
c)a place where they can do that type of stuff without having thousands of dollars saved up to keep themselves alive or being forced to move to another country practicing 10 to 14 hours in a well structured team house in the exact same environment as the Koreans will not produce the same skills. Let me give you an example, Idra did that korean team house thing for years, and nony still came along came out of his 5 year retirement and trained for 2 weeks at his house in USA and proceed to roflstomp idra without that korean team house environment. saying koreans are better because of their educational system, because of their culture, because of their race is so wrong, do you think their education and culture and race allow ppl like mvp, taejja and flash and many others grind through the pain that is carpal tunnel and refuse to let up? and then surgically repair the wrist and keep at it? Contributing the each individual player's achievement to their race and culture is racism. Ya even if it's a positive praise, you are taking away the glory from the person and giving it to their race, and say their culture produced it. Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea. Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism. "I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts. Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better.
So Koreans are genetically superior...?
That's nonsense. Talent is a buzzword employed by people who don't have an argument to gloss over the hard work and drive of people more motivated than themselves. Lmao at you if you think MVP used some inaccessible magic to win GSLs.
|
On April 05 2013 02:08 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:05 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:57 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 01:48 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:44 rei wrote:
Stop giving yourselves excuses for sucking, look at stephano, he's not a product of korean culture, nor practice environment and he's been taking korean moneys for the past 2 years. Now look at idra he was grinding away in korea for a good 3 years before sc2 came out, and where is he now? It is not the practice environment that produce the results, it's the player that produce the results, stop giving excuses and get better, play smarter. This mentality of "not fair their culture is better at sc2 than ours, there is nothing we can do" has no substance, it's all whining, the koreans don't start out with 7 workers every game. The koreans want to succeed in this as badly as they need to breath, keep up with that intensity instead of whining about it. Your reading skills must be abysmal or you simply ignore my posts. I'm not even a supporter of foreign players to begin with, but I want to see the best possible play which is coming from Korea, yet you really don't have to be a genius to realize that one can only push its level that far as the player base does allow. Why do you think the level of Korean players does decrease when staying outside of Korea? The level here is simply worse and at some point there's no way to improve, because there is no one giving you a challenge. If you never encounter timings or encounter timings that arrive 30 seconds late compared to a Korean pro, how are you supposed to be ready and how do you learn to defend it? If you don't get that simple logic discussing with you makes no sense. A few very talented and gifted players rising near Korean level doesn't make the general fact untrue. You need to stop responding to the "Try harder, practice more," posters. There is enough information as to why the foreign scene is behind Korea for them to know that is not a matter of practice or man hours put in. They are either trolling or just choose to believe that the foreigners are truly lazier than Koreans(which does not hold up for other professional competitions, oddly enough). The simple fact of the matter is that the Korean pro-gaming system is better than anything we have in NA or EU. They are better able to find and refine talent. NA and EU have talented players that don't even know they are talented, but there is no clear path for those players to test their metal and grow. Nope, not amount of "try harder and practice more" would help, it's not the system that produces better players, it's the better players that produces the better system. You swap the environment for all the foreigners and korean and the foreigners will still suck. It's the talents that's lacking. So you argument is that Korean players are superior not because of their environment, but do to raw talent? What would you attribute this raw talent to, a genetic advantage or cultural advantage? Or are we assuming that culture is part of environment?
those question depend on what you mean by raw talent, your understanding of what talents is in sc2 could be vastly different from what I consider talent.
|
On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:27 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:09 Aterons_toss wrote:
If you are going to do that you might as well just make it Korea only because non will have a chance to qualify,this way you might have a few foreigners make it to ro8 or even ro4 if not than the 3 foreigners will surely have no chance.
And it won't "encourage" the growth of the scene, it will encourage the growth of Korea.
Even if you "take their money away" Europeans and Americans won't become Koreans, I could bet that for every foreign player if they had to chose between practicing for 14 hours or not making money they would get the hell out and go to college or find a job.
If you look at most of the successful foreigner in strategy game in general they are people like Grubby and Stephano, people that quite college for an year to try the game and became really good based on their tactics, that's why I would assume you see foreigners doing better at the beginning of BW, WC3 and SC2 than toward the end... because there is still shit to figure out.
I don't think 99% of the people you see playing starcraft outside of Korea have the mentality or live in the conditions where it would be enjoyable for them to literally train 10 to 14 hours a day for years and years to than ( sometimes ) come to fame and win about the same amount of money you would if you would have put all those hours into university ( do note that in most European countries going to a university is much cheaper than in America ).
Koreans can ( imo ) play that much for that long because :
a) incentive due to their crazy educational system
b) incentive because they can literally become nation wide celebrities and most of them probably see starcraft much like we see footbal here or as Americans see basketball
c)a place where they can do that type of stuff without having thousands of dollars saved up to keep themselves alive or being forced to move to another country practicing 10 to 14 hours in a well structured team house in the exact same environment as the Koreans will not produce the same skills. Let me give you an example, Idra did that korean team house thing for years, and nony still came along came out of his 5 year retirement and trained for 2 weeks at his house in USA and proceed to roflstomp idra without that korean team house environment. saying koreans are better because of their educational system, because of their culture, because of their race is so wrong, do you think their education and culture and race allow ppl like mvp, taejja and flash and many others grind through the pain that is carpal tunnel and refuse to let up? and then surgically repair the wrist and keep at it? Contributing the each individual player's achievement to their race and culture is racism. Ya even if it's a positive praise, you are taking away the glory from the person and giving it to their race, and say their culture produced it. Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea. Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism. "I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts. Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better.
Your proof is two boX? He lost to F91 and NonY. F91 being one of the very best Zergs at that time also taking games off of NaDa and NonY being an execptional player as well winning close by 3-2 ... not even taking the games into account. I can still remember his cancelled cc into gg. Your arguments are not just weak, but barely there.
|
On April 05 2013 02:11 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:27 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:09 Aterons_toss wrote:
If you are going to do that you might as well just make it Korea only because non will have a chance to qualify,this way you might have a few foreigners make it to ro8 or even ro4 if not than the 3 foreigners will surely have no chance.
And it won't "encourage" the growth of the scene, it will encourage the growth of Korea.
Even if you "take their money away" Europeans and Americans won't become Koreans, I could bet that for every foreign player if they had to chose between practicing for 14 hours or not making money they would get the hell out and go to college or find a job.
If you look at most of the successful foreigner in strategy game in general they are people like Grubby and Stephano, people that quite college for an year to try the game and became really good based on their tactics, that's why I would assume you see foreigners doing better at the beginning of BW, WC3 and SC2 than toward the end... because there is still shit to figure out.
I don't think 99% of the people you see playing starcraft outside of Korea have the mentality or live in the conditions where it would be enjoyable for them to literally train 10 to 14 hours a day for years and years to than ( sometimes ) come to fame and win about the same amount of money you would if you would have put all those hours into university ( do note that in most European countries going to a university is much cheaper than in America ).
Koreans can ( imo ) play that much for that long because :
a) incentive due to their crazy educational system
b) incentive because they can literally become nation wide celebrities and most of them probably see starcraft much like we see footbal here or as Americans see basketball
c)a place where they can do that type of stuff without having thousands of dollars saved up to keep themselves alive or being forced to move to another country practicing 10 to 14 hours in a well structured team house in the exact same environment as the Koreans will not produce the same skills. Let me give you an example, Idra did that korean team house thing for years, and nony still came along came out of his 5 year retirement and trained for 2 weeks at his house in USA and proceed to roflstomp idra without that korean team house environment. saying koreans are better because of their educational system, because of their culture, because of their race is so wrong, do you think their education and culture and race allow ppl like mvp, taejja and flash and many others grind through the pain that is carpal tunnel and refuse to let up? and then surgically repair the wrist and keep at it? Contributing the each individual player's achievement to their race and culture is racism. Ya even if it's a positive praise, you are taking away the glory from the person and giving it to their race, and say their culture produced it. Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea. Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism. "I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts. Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better. So Koreans are genetically superior...? That's nonsense. Talent is a buzzword employed by people who don't have an argument to gloss over the hard work and drive of people more motivated than themselves. Lmao at you if you think MVP used some inaccessible magic to win GSLs.
didn't say that, again, what you consider to be talent could be different from what I consider to be talent, tell me what you think talent is in sc2? maybe if you figure out what it is you would agree with me.
|
On April 05 2013 02:13 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:11 Shiori wrote:On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:27 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:09 Aterons_toss wrote:
If you are going to do that you might as well just make it Korea only because non will have a chance to qualify,this way you might have a few foreigners make it to ro8 or even ro4 if not than the 3 foreigners will surely have no chance.
And it won't "encourage" the growth of the scene, it will encourage the growth of Korea.
Even if you "take their money away" Europeans and Americans won't become Koreans, I could bet that for every foreign player if they had to chose between practicing for 14 hours or not making money they would get the hell out and go to college or find a job.
If you look at most of the successful foreigner in strategy game in general they are people like Grubby and Stephano, people that quite college for an year to try the game and became really good based on their tactics, that's why I would assume you see foreigners doing better at the beginning of BW, WC3 and SC2 than toward the end... because there is still shit to figure out.
I don't think 99% of the people you see playing starcraft outside of Korea have the mentality or live in the conditions where it would be enjoyable for them to literally train 10 to 14 hours a day for years and years to than ( sometimes ) come to fame and win about the same amount of money you would if you would have put all those hours into university ( do note that in most European countries going to a university is much cheaper than in America ).
Koreans can ( imo ) play that much for that long because :
a) incentive due to their crazy educational system
b) incentive because they can literally become nation wide celebrities and most of them probably see starcraft much like we see footbal here or as Americans see basketball
c)a place where they can do that type of stuff without having thousands of dollars saved up to keep themselves alive or being forced to move to another country practicing 10 to 14 hours in a well structured team house in the exact same environment as the Koreans will not produce the same skills. Let me give you an example, Idra did that korean team house thing for years, and nony still came along came out of his 5 year retirement and trained for 2 weeks at his house in USA and proceed to roflstomp idra without that korean team house environment. saying koreans are better because of their educational system, because of their culture, because of their race is so wrong, do you think their education and culture and race allow ppl like mvp, taejja and flash and many others grind through the pain that is carpal tunnel and refuse to let up? and then surgically repair the wrist and keep at it? Contributing the each individual player's achievement to their race and culture is racism. Ya even if it's a positive praise, you are taking away the glory from the person and giving it to their race, and say their culture produced it. Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea. Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism. "I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts. Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better. So Koreans are genetically superior...? That's nonsense. Talent is a buzzword employed by people who don't have an argument to gloss over the hard work and drive of people more motivated than themselves. Lmao at you if you think MVP used some inaccessible magic to win GSLs. didn't say that, again, what you consider to be talent could be different from what I consider to be talent, tell me what you think talent is in sc2? maybe if you figure out what it is you would agree with me.
I don't really believe much in talent in general. I think tenacity and drive trump talent in 99% of cases. There are many examples of "geniuses" saying that they believe their abilities are accessible to anyone provided they simply try to look at problems in different ways. My basic position is that nobody is using magic here. We're all equipped with roughly similar human brains. Some of them might be marginally predisposed toward certain tasks, but the techniques used are accessible to everyone. If you transplant MVP's game knowledge into my brain, I'd be similarly skilled at Sc2. So talent is probably just a predisposition that can be overcome by someone who lacks it by a decent amount of work and retraining.
|
It's simple, people need to stop laddering and stop streaming.
And actually get together and practice properly... don't need a ''practice house'' for this... just a few like minded top players.
|
On April 05 2013 02:13 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:11 Shiori wrote:On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:27 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:09 Aterons_toss wrote:
If you are going to do that you might as well just make it Korea only because non will have a chance to qualify,this way you might have a few foreigners make it to ro8 or even ro4 if not than the 3 foreigners will surely have no chance.
And it won't "encourage" the growth of the scene, it will encourage the growth of Korea.
Even if you "take their money away" Europeans and Americans won't become Koreans, I could bet that for every foreign player if they had to chose between practicing for 14 hours or not making money they would get the hell out and go to college or find a job.
If you look at most of the successful foreigner in strategy game in general they are people like Grubby and Stephano, people that quite college for an year to try the game and became really good based on their tactics, that's why I would assume you see foreigners doing better at the beginning of BW, WC3 and SC2 than toward the end... because there is still shit to figure out.
I don't think 99% of the people you see playing starcraft outside of Korea have the mentality or live in the conditions where it would be enjoyable for them to literally train 10 to 14 hours a day for years and years to than ( sometimes ) come to fame and win about the same amount of money you would if you would have put all those hours into university ( do note that in most European countries going to a university is much cheaper than in America ).
Koreans can ( imo ) play that much for that long because :
a) incentive due to their crazy educational system
b) incentive because they can literally become nation wide celebrities and most of them probably see starcraft much like we see footbal here or as Americans see basketball
c)a place where they can do that type of stuff without having thousands of dollars saved up to keep themselves alive or being forced to move to another country practicing 10 to 14 hours in a well structured team house in the exact same environment as the Koreans will not produce the same skills. Let me give you an example, Idra did that korean team house thing for years, and nony still came along came out of his 5 year retirement and trained for 2 weeks at his house in USA and proceed to roflstomp idra without that korean team house environment. saying koreans are better because of their educational system, because of their culture, because of their race is so wrong, do you think their education and culture and race allow ppl like mvp, taejja and flash and many others grind through the pain that is carpal tunnel and refuse to let up? and then surgically repair the wrist and keep at it? Contributing the each individual player's achievement to their race and culture is racism. Ya even if it's a positive praise, you are taking away the glory from the person and giving it to their race, and say their culture produced it. Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea. Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism. "I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts. Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better. So Koreans are genetically superior...? That's nonsense. Talent is a buzzword employed by people who don't have an argument to gloss over the hard work and drive of people more motivated than themselves. Lmao at you if you think MVP used some inaccessible magic to win GSLs. didn't say that, again, what you consider to be talent could be different from what I consider to be talent, tell me what you think talent is in sc2? maybe if you figure out what it is you would agree with me.
You heavily implied it. All of the arguments based around racism and genetic advantage center around environment vs nature. By saying that Korean players will beat all foreign players if both are placed in the same environment, you are making the classic argument that all racist have made for years. If you don't want to be accused of being racist, do not make arguments in this fashion.
|
On April 05 2013 02:12 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:27 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:09 Aterons_toss wrote:
If you are going to do that you might as well just make it Korea only because non will have a chance to qualify,this way you might have a few foreigners make it to ro8 or even ro4 if not than the 3 foreigners will surely have no chance.
And it won't "encourage" the growth of the scene, it will encourage the growth of Korea.
Even if you "take their money away" Europeans and Americans won't become Koreans, I could bet that for every foreign player if they had to chose between practicing for 14 hours or not making money they would get the hell out and go to college or find a job.
If you look at most of the successful foreigner in strategy game in general they are people like Grubby and Stephano, people that quite college for an year to try the game and became really good based on their tactics, that's why I would assume you see foreigners doing better at the beginning of BW, WC3 and SC2 than toward the end... because there is still shit to figure out.
I don't think 99% of the people you see playing starcraft outside of Korea have the mentality or live in the conditions where it would be enjoyable for them to literally train 10 to 14 hours a day for years and years to than ( sometimes ) come to fame and win about the same amount of money you would if you would have put all those hours into university ( do note that in most European countries going to a university is much cheaper than in America ).
Koreans can ( imo ) play that much for that long because :
a) incentive due to their crazy educational system
b) incentive because they can literally become nation wide celebrities and most of them probably see starcraft much like we see footbal here or as Americans see basketball
c)a place where they can do that type of stuff without having thousands of dollars saved up to keep themselves alive or being forced to move to another country practicing 10 to 14 hours in a well structured team house in the exact same environment as the Koreans will not produce the same skills. Let me give you an example, Idra did that korean team house thing for years, and nony still came along came out of his 5 year retirement and trained for 2 weeks at his house in USA and proceed to roflstomp idra without that korean team house environment. saying koreans are better because of their educational system, because of their culture, because of their race is so wrong, do you think their education and culture and race allow ppl like mvp, taejja and flash and many others grind through the pain that is carpal tunnel and refuse to let up? and then surgically repair the wrist and keep at it? Contributing the each individual player's achievement to their race and culture is racism. Ya even if it's a positive praise, you are taking away the glory from the person and giving it to their race, and say their culture produced it. Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea. Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism. "I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts. Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better. Your proof is two boX? He lost to F91 and NonY. F91 being one of the very best Zergs at that time also taking games off of NaDa and NonY being an execptional player as well winning close by 3-2 ... not even taking the games into account. I can still remember his cancelled cc into gg. Your arguments are not just weak, but barely there.
ya, after ad hominem, you decide to use strawman fallacy, labeling my evidence as weak does not take away the fact these evidence supports my argument, korean practice environment, and hard working that was idra did not respect the game, did not respect his opponent, did not have the skill to beat 2 people who did not practice nearly as hard as he did nor did those 2 person grind it out in korea as he did.
tell me what do you think talent is in the game of sc2?
|
On April 05 2013 02:17 Technique wrote:
It's simple, people need to stop laddering and stop streaming.
And actually get together and practice properly... don't need a ''practice house'' for this... just a few like minded top players.
Professional coaching is a critical part of practice and that is one area where NA and EU simply lacks professionals who can fill that role. Everyone does better with a coach in all aspects of competition and the Olympics has proven this over and over. Management of your practice schedule and objective review of your performance is key to success in any competitive field and it is a key area that NA and EU teams need to double down on.
|
|
|
On April 05 2013 02:20 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:12 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:27 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:09 Aterons_toss wrote:
If you are going to do that you might as well just make it Korea only because non will have a chance to qualify,this way you might have a few foreigners make it to ro8 or even ro4 if not than the 3 foreigners will surely have no chance.
And it won't "encourage" the growth of the scene, it will encourage the growth of Korea.
Even if you "take their money away" Europeans and Americans won't become Koreans, I could bet that for every foreign player if they had to chose between practicing for 14 hours or not making money they would get the hell out and go to college or find a job.
If you look at most of the successful foreigner in strategy game in general they are people like Grubby and Stephano, people that quite college for an year to try the game and became really good based on their tactics, that's why I would assume you see foreigners doing better at the beginning of BW, WC3 and SC2 than toward the end... because there is still shit to figure out.
I don't think 99% of the people you see playing starcraft outside of Korea have the mentality or live in the conditions where it would be enjoyable for them to literally train 10 to 14 hours a day for years and years to than ( sometimes ) come to fame and win about the same amount of money you would if you would have put all those hours into university ( do note that in most European countries going to a university is much cheaper than in America ).
Koreans can ( imo ) play that much for that long because :
a) incentive due to their crazy educational system
b) incentive because they can literally become nation wide celebrities and most of them probably see starcraft much like we see footbal here or as Americans see basketball
c)a place where they can do that type of stuff without having thousands of dollars saved up to keep themselves alive or being forced to move to another country practicing 10 to 14 hours in a well structured team house in the exact same environment as the Koreans will not produce the same skills. Let me give you an example, Idra did that korean team house thing for years, and nony still came along came out of his 5 year retirement and trained for 2 weeks at his house in USA and proceed to roflstomp idra without that korean team house environment. saying koreans are better because of their educational system, because of their culture, because of their race is so wrong, do you think their education and culture and race allow ppl like mvp, taejja and flash and many others grind through the pain that is carpal tunnel and refuse to let up? and then surgically repair the wrist and keep at it? Contributing the each individual player's achievement to their race and culture is racism. Ya even if it's a positive praise, you are taking away the glory from the person and giving it to their race, and say their culture produced it. Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea. Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism. "I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts. Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better. Your proof is two boX? He lost to F91 and NonY. F91 being one of the very best Zergs at that time also taking games off of NaDa and NonY being an execptional player as well winning close by 3-2 ... not even taking the games into account. I can still remember his cancelled cc into gg. Your arguments are not just weak, but barely there. ya, after ad hominem, you decide to use strawman fallacy, labeling my evidence as weak does not take away the fact these evidence supports my argument, korean practice environment, and hard working that was idra did not respect the game, did not respect his opponent, did not have the skill to beat 2 people who did not practice nearly as hard as he did nor did those 2 person grind it out in korea as he did. tell me what do you think talent is in the game of sc2?
Were you involved into Starcraft Broodwar? Because it sure does seem like you were not. NonY was an expectional player who did practice on iccup against mostly Koreans and tried to smooth out his builds as much as possible. You could always tell by the build order and placement who was playing.
F91 was one of the chinese pros that were very similar to the Korean scene actually. F91, Legend ... if I remember correctly they even went to Korea for a short period of time and they sure did practice just as much as the Koreans. Also NonY was actually one of the very few persons IdrA did respect, resulting in him gg'ing out of every game, but it seems like you will not back off your point even if proven wrong.
|
On April 05 2013 02:22 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:17 Technique wrote:
It's simple, people need to stop laddering and stop streaming.
And actually get together and practice properly... don't need a ''practice house'' for this... just a few like minded top players. Professional coaching is a critical part of practice and that is one area where NA and EU simply lacks professionals who can fill that role. Everyone does better with a coach in all aspects of competition and the Olympics has proven this over and over. Management of your practice schedule and objective review of your performance is key to success in any competitive field and it is a key area that NA and EU teams need to double down on.
Players can coach/help each other... it's the most effective thing in such a ''new'' sport/game since there won't be a guy who ''done'' and ''seen'' it all like some old boxing coach or w/e.
Also if this is all you do... who needs a schedule? Just keep massing those practice games together...
|
This will inevitably kill esports as a whole. Its the same as beer pong. The same 10 people place in the top 5 every time. We don't get new players, we don't get stars rising from out of no where, nothing. The same with SC. You either play now, or you'll never play. The best players from WC3 and BW dominate... And it will always be that way. The best then, are the best now. It is slowly killing the industry. Less and less show for tournaments, less and less play at all. You invest so much time and money into something with no return... That's just stupidity. They should segregate the league's much like in BroodWar, and WarCraft III. Keep them separate.
|
No matter how much I love seeing the Koreans amazon play , I'd love to see more tournaments without Koreans all over .....
It's just getting dull seeing the same old flag over and over , I even skipped some finals due to that .... Although I would NEVER skip a final with a 'foreigner' in !
|
On April 05 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:13 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:11 Shiori wrote:On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:27 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:09 Aterons_toss wrote:
If you are going to do that you might as well just make it Korea only because non will have a chance to qualify,this way you might have a few foreigners make it to ro8 or even ro4 if not than the 3 foreigners will surely have no chance.
And it won't "encourage" the growth of the scene, it will encourage the growth of Korea.
Even if you "take their money away" Europeans and Americans won't become Koreans, I could bet that for every foreign player if they had to chose between practicing for 14 hours or not making money they would get the hell out and go to college or find a job.
If you look at most of the successful foreigner in strategy game in general they are people like Grubby and Stephano, people that quite college for an year to try the game and became really good based on their tactics, that's why I would assume you see foreigners doing better at the beginning of BW, WC3 and SC2 than toward the end... because there is still shit to figure out.
I don't think 99% of the people you see playing starcraft outside of Korea have the mentality or live in the conditions where it would be enjoyable for them to literally train 10 to 14 hours a day for years and years to than ( sometimes ) come to fame and win about the same amount of money you would if you would have put all those hours into university ( do note that in most European countries going to a university is much cheaper than in America ).
Koreans can ( imo ) play that much for that long because :
a) incentive due to their crazy educational system
b) incentive because they can literally become nation wide celebrities and most of them probably see starcraft much like we see footbal here or as Americans see basketball
c)a place where they can do that type of stuff without having thousands of dollars saved up to keep themselves alive or being forced to move to another country practicing 10 to 14 hours in a well structured team house in the exact same environment as the Koreans will not produce the same skills. Let me give you an example, Idra did that korean team house thing for years, and nony still came along came out of his 5 year retirement and trained for 2 weeks at his house in USA and proceed to roflstomp idra without that korean team house environment. saying koreans are better because of their educational system, because of their culture, because of their race is so wrong, do you think their education and culture and race allow ppl like mvp, taejja and flash and many others grind through the pain that is carpal tunnel and refuse to let up? and then surgically repair the wrist and keep at it? Contributing the each individual player's achievement to their race and culture is racism. Ya even if it's a positive praise, you are taking away the glory from the person and giving it to their race, and say their culture produced it. Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea. Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism. "I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts. Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better. So Koreans are genetically superior...? That's nonsense. Talent is a buzzword employed by people who don't have an argument to gloss over the hard work and drive of people more motivated than themselves. Lmao at you if you think MVP used some inaccessible magic to win GSLs. didn't say that, again, what you consider to be talent could be different from what I consider to be talent, tell me what you think talent is in sc2? maybe if you figure out what it is you would agree with me. You heavily implied it. All of the arguments based around racism and genetic advantage center around environment vs nature. By saying that Korean players will beat all foreign players if both are placed in the same environment, you are making the classic argument that all racist have made for years. If you don't want to be accused of being racist, do not make arguments in this fashion.
it never even cross my mind for a second until you mention it, the fact that you mention it reflects on what you are thinking, not what I am thinking. if anything you should look at yourself on why you would be looking for racism when nothing is even remotely pointing toward that direction.
and my argument is supported by facts, idra had the korean environment and he does not produce any korean result, neighter did huk, nor naniwa, nor sase. and then on the other hand, we have stephano who did not have the korean environment yet he won ton of tournaments vs the koreans. these are Facts. talent is the different between stephano and idra.
|
On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:I never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better.
That's statistically unsound unless you are actually discriminating westerners based on races which is both retarded and severely outdated as a theory or that you can prove that Korean culture breeds superior PC gamer.
|
On April 05 2013 02:25 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:22 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:17 Technique wrote:
It's simple, people need to stop laddering and stop streaming.
And actually get together and practice properly... don't need a ''practice house'' for this... just a few like minded top players. Professional coaching is a critical part of practice and that is one area where NA and EU simply lacks professionals who can fill that role. Everyone does better with a coach in all aspects of competition and the Olympics has proven this over and over. Management of your practice schedule and objective review of your performance is key to success in any competitive field and it is a key area that NA and EU teams need to double down on. Players can coach/help each other... it's the most effective thing in such a ''new'' sport/game since there won't be a guy who ''done'' and ''seen'' it all like some old boxing coach or w/e. Also if this is all you do... who needs a schedule? Just keep massing those practice games together...
If it were that easy, people would just do it. That is not the type of system that the Kespa teams have and they are doing the best right now. Kespa teams have coaches that schedule, review games and manage the players, the amount they practice and what they practice. There is a reason Coach Park has the most winning record of all the Kespa coaches and his teams do the best. They don't just mass practice, they practice better than other teams because he manages how they practice.
|
On April 05 2013 02:31 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:25 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:22 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:17 Technique wrote:
It's simple, people need to stop laddering and stop streaming.
And actually get together and practice properly... don't need a ''practice house'' for this... just a few like minded top players. Professional coaching is a critical part of practice and that is one area where NA and EU simply lacks professionals who can fill that role. Everyone does better with a coach in all aspects of competition and the Olympics has proven this over and over. Management of your practice schedule and objective review of your performance is key to success in any competitive field and it is a key area that NA and EU teams need to double down on. Players can coach/help each other... it's the most effective thing in such a ''new'' sport/game since there won't be a guy who ''done'' and ''seen'' it all like some old boxing coach or w/e. Also if this is all you do... who needs a schedule? Just keep massing those practice games together... If it were that easy, people would just do it. That is not the type of system that the Kespa teams have and they are doing the best right now. Kespa teams have coaches that schedule, review games and manage the players, the amount they practice and what they practice. There is a reason Coach Park has the most winning record of all the Kespa coaches and his teams do the best. They don't just mass practice, they practice better than other teams because he manages how they practice.
Pretty sure people have done exactly what i said and became top players...
Thing is however... Korea simply has MUCH more serious rts players... that's all there is to it.
|
On April 05 2013 02:28 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:13 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:11 Shiori wrote:On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:27 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:09 Aterons_toss wrote:
If you are going to do that you might as well just make it Korea only because non will have a chance to qualify,this way you might have a few foreigners make it to ro8 or even ro4 if not than the 3 foreigners will surely have no chance.
And it won't "encourage" the growth of the scene, it will encourage the growth of Korea.
Even if you "take their money away" Europeans and Americans won't become Koreans, I could bet that for every foreign player if they had to chose between practicing for 14 hours or not making money they would get the hell out and go to college or find a job.
If you look at most of the successful foreigner in strategy game in general they are people like Grubby and Stephano, people that quite college for an year to try the game and became really good based on their tactics, that's why I would assume you see foreigners doing better at the beginning of BW, WC3 and SC2 than toward the end... because there is still shit to figure out.
I don't think 99% of the people you see playing starcraft outside of Korea have the mentality or live in the conditions where it would be enjoyable for them to literally train 10 to 14 hours a day for years and years to than ( sometimes ) come to fame and win about the same amount of money you would if you would have put all those hours into university ( do note that in most European countries going to a university is much cheaper than in America ).
Koreans can ( imo ) play that much for that long because :
a) incentive due to their crazy educational system
b) incentive because they can literally become nation wide celebrities and most of them probably see starcraft much like we see footbal here or as Americans see basketball
c)a place where they can do that type of stuff without having thousands of dollars saved up to keep themselves alive or being forced to move to another country practicing 10 to 14 hours in a well structured team house in the exact same environment as the Koreans will not produce the same skills. Let me give you an example, Idra did that korean team house thing for years, and nony still came along came out of his 5 year retirement and trained for 2 weeks at his house in USA and proceed to roflstomp idra without that korean team house environment. saying koreans are better because of their educational system, because of their culture, because of their race is so wrong, do you think their education and culture and race allow ppl like mvp, taejja and flash and many others grind through the pain that is carpal tunnel and refuse to let up? and then surgically repair the wrist and keep at it? Contributing the each individual player's achievement to their race and culture is racism. Ya even if it's a positive praise, you are taking away the glory from the person and giving it to their race, and say their culture produced it. Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea. Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism. "I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts. Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better. So Koreans are genetically superior...? That's nonsense. Talent is a buzzword employed by people who don't have an argument to gloss over the hard work and drive of people more motivated than themselves. Lmao at you if you think MVP used some inaccessible magic to win GSLs. didn't say that, again, what you consider to be talent could be different from what I consider to be talent, tell me what you think talent is in sc2? maybe if you figure out what it is you would agree with me. You heavily implied it. All of the arguments based around racism and genetic advantage center around environment vs nature. By saying that Korean players will beat all foreign players if both are placed in the same environment, you are making the classic argument that all racist have made for years. If you don't want to be accused of being racist, do not make arguments in this fashion. it never even cross my mind for a second until you mention it, the fact that you mention it reflects on what you are thinking, not what I am thinking. if anything you should look at yourself on why you would be looking for racism when nothing is even remotely pointing toward that direction. and my argument is supported by facts, idra had the korean environment and he does not produce any korean result, neighter did huk, nor naniwa, nor sase. and then on the other hand, we have stephano who did not have the korean environment yet he won ton of tournaments vs the koreans. these are Facts. talent is the different between stephano and idra.
It matters little what I am thinking, but what your statements say to the general public. If you make an argument that is used by racist, don't be shocked if bring that up. If you aren't aware that the argument was used by racist, you should place the burden on the other side for thinking the argument was racist. You are responsible for conveying your own thoughts and making sure we don't misread them.
What is the point of your argument? Stephano is a talented player and does well, we know that. The other players you list are not doing amazing, but so are an equal number of Korean players in Korea. We know that some players are more talented than others, that is given fact. Is your argument that the current set of foreign players are not as talented as Koreans or that all foreign players are not talented as Koreans?
|
I'd just argue for local tournaments for the same reason why you have Bronze through GM leagues. You need that in order to get people to play. Yeah, NA players can't generally go toe-to-toe with Koreans. The best way to give them the chance to is to start out with an even playing field and let the scene work its way up. There's a huge unresolvable issue in that NA players are spread out across an entire continent while Koreans are pretty much all in Seoul, but at least it gives the NA grandmasters the ability to seriously compete.
In order to get good, you need to be competing with people who are around your level of skill. If Koreans dominate every tournament, there's no place for foreigners to join in. That's why we need smaller regional tournaments: it gives foreigners a reason to practice.
|
On April 05 2013 02:34 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:31 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:25 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:22 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:17 Technique wrote:
It's simple, people need to stop laddering and stop streaming.
And actually get together and practice properly... don't need a ''practice house'' for this... just a few like minded top players. Professional coaching is a critical part of practice and that is one area where NA and EU simply lacks professionals who can fill that role. Everyone does better with a coach in all aspects of competition and the Olympics has proven this over and over. Management of your practice schedule and objective review of your performance is key to success in any competitive field and it is a key area that NA and EU teams need to double down on. Players can coach/help each other... it's the most effective thing in such a ''new'' sport/game since there won't be a guy who ''done'' and ''seen'' it all like some old boxing coach or w/e. Also if this is all you do... who needs a schedule? Just keep massing those practice games together... If it were that easy, people would just do it. That is not the type of system that the Kespa teams have and they are doing the best right now. Kespa teams have coaches that schedule, review games and manage the players, the amount they practice and what they practice. There is a reason Coach Park has the most winning record of all the Kespa coaches and his teams do the best. They don't just mass practice, they practice better than other teams because he manages how they practice. Pretty sure people have done exactly what i said and became top players... Thing is however... Korea simply has MUCH more serious rts players... that's all there is to it.
Flash and Life did not do that. Neither did Parting. They all had coaches, teams and groups around them managing them, helping them practice. These players did not become amazing just by grinding out games together. Its not about man hours and dedication, its about infrastructure.
|
There is no point in arguing now. We can just watch the viewership of NA league in the next 2 months.
|
On April 05 2013 02:40 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:34 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:31 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:25 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:22 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:17 Technique wrote:
It's simple, people need to stop laddering and stop streaming.
And actually get together and practice properly... don't need a ''practice house'' for this... just a few like minded top players. Professional coaching is a critical part of practice and that is one area where NA and EU simply lacks professionals who can fill that role. Everyone does better with a coach in all aspects of competition and the Olympics has proven this over and over. Management of your practice schedule and objective review of your performance is key to success in any competitive field and it is a key area that NA and EU teams need to double down on. Players can coach/help each other... it's the most effective thing in such a ''new'' sport/game since there won't be a guy who ''done'' and ''seen'' it all like some old boxing coach or w/e. Also if this is all you do... who needs a schedule? Just keep massing those practice games together... If it were that easy, people would just do it. That is not the type of system that the Kespa teams have and they are doing the best right now. Kespa teams have coaches that schedule, review games and manage the players, the amount they practice and what they practice. There is a reason Coach Park has the most winning record of all the Kespa coaches and his teams do the best. They don't just mass practice, they practice better than other teams because he manages how they practice. Pretty sure people have done exactly what i said and became top players... Thing is however... Korea simply has MUCH more serious rts players... that's all there is to it. Flash and Life did not do that. Neither did Parting. They all had coaches, teams and groups around them managing them, helping them practice. These players did not become amazing just by grinding out games together. Its not about man hours and dedication, its about infrastructure.
A coach can't do anything a group of dedicated players can't do for there selfs...
Problem is players are streaming and laddering instead, which really is a time waste...
|
how about everybody just chills and we wait and see what actually happens? it doesn't seem terribly likely that a few threads on TL will change the tournament organizations' decisions.
i personally don't see a possible bad outcome from this. either foreigners show that they can already compete decently (very unlikely), or some Koreans make it through NA/EU along with some foreigners which would prove that some foreigners can hang, but most can't (most likely scenario imo and gives people that are into that foreigners to watch while encouraging the other foreigners to practice harder), or all the foreigners get roflstomped and the entire playoff event consists of 16 koreans, which would bring the best possible games, be absolutely hilarious and perhaps show foreigners around the world that they seriously need to step it up.
|
On April 05 2013 03:01 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:40 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:34 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:31 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:25 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:22 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:17 Technique wrote:
It's simple, people need to stop laddering and stop streaming.
And actually get together and practice properly... don't need a ''practice house'' for this... just a few like minded top players. Professional coaching is a critical part of practice and that is one area where NA and EU simply lacks professionals who can fill that role. Everyone does better with a coach in all aspects of competition and the Olympics has proven this over and over. Management of your practice schedule and objective review of your performance is key to success in any competitive field and it is a key area that NA and EU teams need to double down on. Players can coach/help each other... it's the most effective thing in such a ''new'' sport/game since there won't be a guy who ''done'' and ''seen'' it all like some old boxing coach or w/e. Also if this is all you do... who needs a schedule? Just keep massing those practice games together... If it were that easy, people would just do it. That is not the type of system that the Kespa teams have and they are doing the best right now. Kespa teams have coaches that schedule, review games and manage the players, the amount they practice and what they practice. There is a reason Coach Park has the most winning record of all the Kespa coaches and his teams do the best. They don't just mass practice, they practice better than other teams because he manages how they practice. Pretty sure people have done exactly what i said and became top players... Thing is however... Korea simply has MUCH more serious rts players... that's all there is to it. Flash and Life did not do that. Neither did Parting. They all had coaches, teams and groups around them managing them, helping them practice. These players did not become amazing just by grinding out games together. Its not about man hours and dedication, its about infrastructure. A coach can't do anything a group of dedicated players can't do for there selfs... Problem is players are streaming and laddering instead, which really is a time waste...
Artosis and every professional in the industry disagrees with you and the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor that players do better with coaches. A group of passionate, dedicated players will not do as well as the same group with a professional coach. Coach Park is the best example, who lead every team he coached to a winning record and the play offs in Proleague.
You also don't understand why NA teams stream, even on TL, who has korean players that stream. They don't do it for the money from streaming, but to provide numbers to their sponsors, who support the teams ability to travel to different events.
|
On April 05 2013 01:31 StrifeIsBack wrote:The problem with using NASL is that it wasn't an exclusive NA/EU tournament, ffs NASL1 had Koreans like Boxer invited. There really hasn't been a major NA tournament that has been exclusive to NA ever. I think it's something that we as foreigners need to give the motivation players need. Koreans still have GSL, MLG, and all of the other shit they can dominate but frankly it's getting tiring, and is more stagnant than the SC game itself. More NA tournaments means more opportunity for foreigners to give a shit about playing, and being able to win something. Many good points have been brought up about gaming as a professional industry, and that the money really isn't there compared to over in Seoul, and South Korea in general. We don't have that sort of support like the koreans do to make it far easier for them to sustain themselves. Sure koreans come to the NA teams for salaries that are "better" than the Korean counterparts for all you know that's entirely false, and they just want to play in NA for the big payouts like MLG, and the sort that they can ez farm . No one ever said at any point that the tournaments that are region locked should be huge multi-national level payouts...ever...just because it's region locked doesn't mean it's an MLG with a $100,000 prize pool for Top 8...jesus. Something definitely needs to be done though or else I fear Korea will once again be the only place that is, and ever will be Starcraft.
Instead of arguing over talent, and racism can we discuss more important on topic matters...like this ^
^_^ just sayin' bickering like little children is pointless. I bring up plenty of relevant, and important matters in the NA scene, and the StarCraft scene not dying as a whole.
Korean v Korean is boring. Many people don't care to continously watch these MLG finals of Flash vs Life, Life vs Parting, etc, etc, etc. Us foreigners want foreigners to win (surprise?) hence we need regional leagues, and tournaments for our players to grow, and foster the ability, and willingness to create the infastructure we need over here.
Especially to be able to get to such high levels of play to compete with the koreans, and not have a stagnant SC2 esports scene that will slowly die out, and less, and less viewers to watch, and give money to supporters for SC2. As it is already League has exploded in popularity over SC2, and other games are looking to do the same.
The point of this thread isn't really about WCS either. It's about why we want to see foreigners over koreans. Soooooo yeah. The reason is simple. The analogy brought up of sports teams is very relatable. You don't care about the best of the best, you care about your "home team" in this case starcraft player like Demuslim or team like ROOT.
I don't care to see high level play of Korean on Foreigner at MLG smacking the shit out of my favorite player or favorite team, and them losing consistently. I'd like to see a level of play that is on par with that of the team I'm in favor of, and that just can't happen if everything is open to koreans freely. There needs to be some sort of NA/regional tournaments where koreans aren't just going to come in and swoop up dat dere free money.
This all again rolls back to needing an infrastructure like korea with the team houses, and team coaches to be able to compete at such levels like the koreans if we ever want high level play from all nations. The same needs to happen in Denmark, Germany, Norway, etc. etc. etc.
|
The way WCS is set up is not offensive imo because its similar to olympics. Some countries have athletes that would of normally would of been an Olympian in another country but be excluded from their own.
With that said, I am less than enthusiastic about how its set up to force foreigners into the spotlight. Personally I dont really care about the origins of the players, I just want to see high level games. The highest level games are played by koreans. And on top of that, they also generally produce much more entertaining games because they are much more aggressive.
I mean I watch real sports (mainly NBA) in addition to starcraft. I always thought other than the physical factor of it all, that starcraft had tons of similarities to how real sports are spectated. However this foreigner vs korean thing is really stupid. I would be appalled if a player from lets say China got more playing time then an african american player just to promote basketball in China and appease chinese fans. That just isnt the way to do it.
Yes, Koreans have an advantage over foreigners because of their structure. So what? Same with how americans do with basketball with their school programs. People keep on comparing starcraft with real sports in TL but their argument for foreigners is always the furthest away from how its handled in real sports. Starcraft is a competitive sport, theres no leveling the playing field for racial factors.
You can have regional tournaments as long as they don't exclude you because of your nationality. It should discourage koreans from attending these tournies with small prize pools that make it not worth it to travel. Thats how you do it. Like many others, I wish foreigners were more competitive too but they should not be coddled in. I am a Chinese Canadian and would love for more chinese players to be in NBA. However would hate if suddenly chinese players were more likely to be drafted higher than a superior american counterpart simply to level the playing field. It makes no sense.
|
On April 05 2013 03:17 StrifeIsBack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 01:31 StrifeIsBack wrote:The problem with using NASL is that it wasn't an exclusive NA/EU tournament, ffs NASL1 had Koreans like Boxer invited. There really hasn't been a major NA tournament that has been exclusive to NA ever. I think it's something that we as foreigners need to give the motivation players need. Koreans still have GSL, MLG, and all of the other shit they can dominate but frankly it's getting tiring, and is more stagnant than the SC game itself. More NA tournaments means more opportunity for foreigners to give a shit about playing, and being able to win something. Many good points have been brought up about gaming as a professional industry, and that the money really isn't there compared to over in Seoul, and South Korea in general. We don't have that sort of support like the koreans do to make it far easier for them to sustain themselves. Sure koreans come to the NA teams for salaries that are "better" than the Korean counterparts for all you know that's entirely false, and they just want to play in NA for the big payouts like MLG, and the sort that they can ez farm . No one ever said at any point that the tournaments that are region locked should be huge multi-national level payouts...ever...just because it's region locked doesn't mean it's an MLG with a $100,000 prize pool for Top 8...jesus. Something definitely needs to be done though or else I fear Korea will once again be the only place that is, and ever will be Starcraft. Instead of arguing over talent, and racism can we discuss more important on topic matters...like this ^ ^_^ just sayin' bickering like little children is pointless. I bring up plenty of relevant, and important matters in the NA scene, and the StarCraft scene not dying as a whole. Korean v Korean is boring. Many people don't care to continously watch these MLG finals of Flash vs Life, Life vs Parting, etc, etc, etc. Us foreigners want foreigners to win (surprise?) hence we need regional leagues, and tournaments for our players to grow, and foster the ability, and willingness to create the infastructure we need over here to be able to get to such high levels of play to compete with the koreans, and not have a stagnant SC2 esports scene that will slowly die out, and less, and less viewers to watch, and give money to supporters for SC2. As it is already League has exploded in popularity over SC2, and other games are looking to do the same.
No one is argueing that we need leagues in NA/EU. People are argueing about Korean participation should be allowed or not.
|
On April 05 2013 03:15 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:01 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:40 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:34 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:31 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:25 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:22 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:17 Technique wrote:
It's simple, people need to stop laddering and stop streaming.
And actually get together and practice properly... don't need a ''practice house'' for this... just a few like minded top players. Professional coaching is a critical part of practice and that is one area where NA and EU simply lacks professionals who can fill that role. Everyone does better with a coach in all aspects of competition and the Olympics has proven this over and over. Management of your practice schedule and objective review of your performance is key to success in any competitive field and it is a key area that NA and EU teams need to double down on. Players can coach/help each other... it's the most effective thing in such a ''new'' sport/game since there won't be a guy who ''done'' and ''seen'' it all like some old boxing coach or w/e. Also if this is all you do... who needs a schedule? Just keep massing those practice games together... If it were that easy, people would just do it. That is not the type of system that the Kespa teams have and they are doing the best right now. Kespa teams have coaches that schedule, review games and manage the players, the amount they practice and what they practice. There is a reason Coach Park has the most winning record of all the Kespa coaches and his teams do the best. They don't just mass practice, they practice better than other teams because he manages how they practice. Pretty sure people have done exactly what i said and became top players... Thing is however... Korea simply has MUCH more serious rts players... that's all there is to it. Flash and Life did not do that. Neither did Parting. They all had coaches, teams and groups around them managing them, helping them practice. These players did not become amazing just by grinding out games together. Its not about man hours and dedication, its about infrastructure. A coach can't do anything a group of dedicated players can't do for there selfs... Problem is players are streaming and laddering instead, which really is a time waste... Artosis and every professional in the industry disagrees with you and the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor that players do better with coaches. A group of passionate, dedicated players will not do as well as the same group with a professional coach. Coach Park is the best example, who lead every team he coached to a winning record and the play offs in Proleague. You also don't understand why NA teams stream, even on TL, who has korean players that stream. They don't do it for the money from streaming, but to provide numbers to their sponsors, who support the teams ability to travel to different events.
Ok tell me one thing that coach can do that a dedicated player can't do on his own?
It's all about self discipline.
Those coaches got nothing to teach... this ain't some old sport like boxing/football etc...
Also you think i don't understand they stream for money because i say it's a time waste? I was speaking from a point of view were players try to catch up to the Korean skill level... streaming and long ladder sessions can't be part of that.
|
On April 05 2013 03:19 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:15 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 03:01 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:40 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:34 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:31 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:25 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:22 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:17 Technique wrote:
It's simple, people need to stop laddering and stop streaming.
And actually get together and practice properly... don't need a ''practice house'' for this... just a few like minded top players. Professional coaching is a critical part of practice and that is one area where NA and EU simply lacks professionals who can fill that role. Everyone does better with a coach in all aspects of competition and the Olympics has proven this over and over. Management of your practice schedule and objective review of your performance is key to success in any competitive field and it is a key area that NA and EU teams need to double down on. Players can coach/help each other... it's the most effective thing in such a ''new'' sport/game since there won't be a guy who ''done'' and ''seen'' it all like some old boxing coach or w/e. Also if this is all you do... who needs a schedule? Just keep massing those practice games together... If it were that easy, people would just do it. That is not the type of system that the Kespa teams have and they are doing the best right now. Kespa teams have coaches that schedule, review games and manage the players, the amount they practice and what they practice. There is a reason Coach Park has the most winning record of all the Kespa coaches and his teams do the best. They don't just mass practice, they practice better than other teams because he manages how they practice. Pretty sure people have done exactly what i said and became top players... Thing is however... Korea simply has MUCH more serious rts players... that's all there is to it. Flash and Life did not do that. Neither did Parting. They all had coaches, teams and groups around them managing them, helping them practice. These players did not become amazing just by grinding out games together. Its not about man hours and dedication, its about infrastructure. A coach can't do anything a group of dedicated players can't do for there selfs... Problem is players are streaming and laddering instead, which really is a time waste... Artosis and every professional in the industry disagrees with you and the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor that players do better with coaches. A group of passionate, dedicated players will not do as well as the same group with a professional coach. Coach Park is the best example, who lead every team he coached to a winning record and the play offs in Proleague. You also don't understand why NA teams stream, even on TL, who has korean players that stream. They don't do it for the money from streaming, but to provide numbers to their sponsors, who support the teams ability to travel to different events. Ok tell me one thing that coach can do that a dedicated player can't do on his own? It's all about self discipline. Those coaches got nothing to teach... this ain't some old sport like boxing/football etc... Also you think i don't understand they stream for money because i say it's a time waste? I was speaking from a point of view were players try to catch up to the Korean skill level... streaming and long ladder sessions can't be part of that.
Mindset, mentality, stress handling, scheduling, offering a neutral observation of your game. Why do professional sport athletes have coaches? Because they do have insight.
|
On April 05 2013 03:18 Type|NarutO wrote:
No one is argueing that we need leagues in NA/EU. People are argueing about Korean participation should be allowed or not.
The thread is technically about why we prefer foreigners over koreans. Not either of the two things brought about in my quote or your quote. Yet in my previous post I go on to talk about why I prefer foreigners over koreans, and why koreans are bad for SC2 and esports as a whole.
|
On April 05 2013 03:25 StrifeIsBack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:18 Type|NarutO wrote:
No one is argueing that we need leagues in NA/EU. People are argueing about Korean participation should be allowed or not.
The thread is technically about why we prefer foreigners over koreans. Not either of the two things brought about in my quote or your quote. Yet in my previous post I go on to talk about why I prefer foreigners over koreans, and why koreans are bad for SC2 and esports as a whole.
Bad for Starcraft 2 and eSports as a whole, you cannot be serious. Really you cannot.
|
I dont think having foreigner only tourneys is such a bad idea. My only thing is if ur gonna make it foreigner only then do it all the way. I hate when tourneys go the WCS way and artificially inflate foreigner numbers by giving out unbalanced numbers of slots, making it tough for koreans to attend, etc. It creates situations with having shitty unbalanced games which are bad for everybody. Foreigner only tourneys can be succesful. Just look ag TSL in the last years of BW. They always had great viewership even tho the skill level was obv miles below top koreans. But now picture flash or JD attending one of those TSL's and who would care to watch it anymore except to see how badly foreigners get stomped? This is the type of situations tourneys create by trying to find this artificially created middle ground. Make it all or nothing
|
screw all you damn elitists who only want to see the best players compete. i think this is actually a very good idea. we can call it kitten league! fun!
|
On April 05 2013 03:21 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:19 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:15 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 03:01 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:40 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:34 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:31 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:25 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:22 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:17 Technique wrote:
It's simple, people need to stop laddering and stop streaming.
And actually get together and practice properly... don't need a ''practice house'' for this... just a few like minded top players. Professional coaching is a critical part of practice and that is one area where NA and EU simply lacks professionals who can fill that role. Everyone does better with a coach in all aspects of competition and the Olympics has proven this over and over. Management of your practice schedule and objective review of your performance is key to success in any competitive field and it is a key area that NA and EU teams need to double down on. Players can coach/help each other... it's the most effective thing in such a ''new'' sport/game since there won't be a guy who ''done'' and ''seen'' it all like some old boxing coach or w/e. Also if this is all you do... who needs a schedule? Just keep massing those practice games together... If it were that easy, people would just do it. That is not the type of system that the Kespa teams have and they are doing the best right now. Kespa teams have coaches that schedule, review games and manage the players, the amount they practice and what they practice. There is a reason Coach Park has the most winning record of all the Kespa coaches and his teams do the best. They don't just mass practice, they practice better than other teams because he manages how they practice. Pretty sure people have done exactly what i said and became top players... Thing is however... Korea simply has MUCH more serious rts players... that's all there is to it. Flash and Life did not do that. Neither did Parting. They all had coaches, teams and groups around them managing them, helping them practice. These players did not become amazing just by grinding out games together. Its not about man hours and dedication, its about infrastructure. A coach can't do anything a group of dedicated players can't do for there selfs... Problem is players are streaming and laddering instead, which really is a time waste... Artosis and every professional in the industry disagrees with you and the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor that players do better with coaches. A group of passionate, dedicated players will not do as well as the same group with a professional coach. Coach Park is the best example, who lead every team he coached to a winning record and the play offs in Proleague. You also don't understand why NA teams stream, even on TL, who has korean players that stream. They don't do it for the money from streaming, but to provide numbers to their sponsors, who support the teams ability to travel to different events. Ok tell me one thing that coach can do that a dedicated player can't do on his own? It's all about self discipline. Those coaches got nothing to teach... this ain't some old sport like boxing/football etc... Also you think i don't understand they stream for money because i say it's a time waste? I was speaking from a point of view were players try to catch up to the Korean skill level... streaming and long ladder sessions can't be part of that. Mindset, mentality, stress handling, scheduling, offering a neutral observation of your game. Why do professional sport athletes have coaches? Because they do have insight.
A coach can't have a proper observation of your game unless he's as high a level as you are... which like i said before, players can help each other with such ''coaching''. The offline tournament stress should be gone after a few tournaments as well.
And didn't i mention that you can't compare this to old sports? For obvious reasons.
|
On April 05 2013 03:19 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:15 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 03:01 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:40 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:34 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:31 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:25 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:22 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:17 Technique wrote:
It's simple, people need to stop laddering and stop streaming.
And actually get together and practice properly... don't need a ''practice house'' for this... just a few like minded top players. Professional coaching is a critical part of practice and that is one area where NA and EU simply lacks professionals who can fill that role. Everyone does better with a coach in all aspects of competition and the Olympics has proven this over and over. Management of your practice schedule and objective review of your performance is key to success in any competitive field and it is a key area that NA and EU teams need to double down on. Players can coach/help each other... it's the most effective thing in such a ''new'' sport/game since there won't be a guy who ''done'' and ''seen'' it all like some old boxing coach or w/e. Also if this is all you do... who needs a schedule? Just keep massing those practice games together... If it were that easy, people would just do it. That is not the type of system that the Kespa teams have and they are doing the best right now. Kespa teams have coaches that schedule, review games and manage the players, the amount they practice and what they practice. There is a reason Coach Park has the most winning record of all the Kespa coaches and his teams do the best. They don't just mass practice, they practice better than other teams because he manages how they practice. Pretty sure people have done exactly what i said and became top players... Thing is however... Korea simply has MUCH more serious rts players... that's all there is to it. Flash and Life did not do that. Neither did Parting. They all had coaches, teams and groups around them managing them, helping them practice. These players did not become amazing just by grinding out games together. Its not about man hours and dedication, its about infrastructure. A coach can't do anything a group of dedicated players can't do for there selfs... Problem is players are streaming and laddering instead, which really is a time waste... Artosis and every professional in the industry disagrees with you and the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor that players do better with coaches. A group of passionate, dedicated players will not do as well as the same group with a professional coach. Coach Park is the best example, who lead every team he coached to a winning record and the play offs in Proleague. You also don't understand why NA teams stream, even on TL, who has korean players that stream. They don't do it for the money from streaming, but to provide numbers to their sponsors, who support the teams ability to travel to different events. Ok tell me one thing that coach can do that a dedicated player can't do on his own? It's all about self discipline. Those coaches got nothing to teach... this ain't some old sport like boxing/football etc... Also you think i don't understand they stream for money because i say it's a time waste? I was speaking from a point of view were players try to catch up to the Korean skill level... streaming and long ladder sessions can't be part of that.
You do know that Coach Park is an ex-professional player right? You do know his teams were the must successful in Proleague, one of the hardest leagues in BW? Don't need to prove anything, because he has already proven my point for me. You say that teams don't need coaches, well Liquid Naz'gul disagrees and hired Coach Park to train TL in Korea. Are you saying that you know more about running a team than Liquid Naz'gul?
Also, Liquid Naz'gul has Hero stream in Korea, because he needs to keep their sponsors for TL. Are you saying that you know more about the business of running a team than Liquid Naz'gul?
|
On April 05 2013 03:26 antelope591 wrote:
I dont think having foreigner only tourneys is such a bad idea. My only thing is if ur gonna make it foreigner only then do it all the way. I hate when tourneys go the WCS way and artificially inflate foreigner numbers by giving out unbalanced numbers of slots, making it tough for koreans to attend, etc. It creates situations with having shitty unbalanced games which are bad for everybody. Foreigner only tourneys can be succesful. Just look ag TSL in the last years of BW. They always had great viewership even tho the skill level was obv miles below top koreans. But now picture flash or JD attending one of those TSL's and who would care to watch it anymore except to see how badly foreigners get stomped? This is the type of situations tourneys create by trying to find this artificially created middle ground. Make it all or nothing
I don't know how different the SC2 community is from the BW community, but if you had JD or Flash playing in TSL2 for example the viewership would increase ten fold.
|
High prize money tournaments will attract the best players. Supply and demand - simple business.
Yes, I'd like to see an underdog fighting his way through the tough competition of faceless Koreans, but that's not going to happen - They practice far too much. (Stephano talked on stream about his training intensity. Even if Stephano is a bit "lazy", it is in no way comparable to Korean training schedule)
Continental championships would be cool, just because the whole scene is concentrated on 1. Korea, 2. North/Eastern Europe, 3. US - What's about good players from places like Latin America (I know there are some like MajOr, but they still compete in the US or Korean scene)?
But if there is no global regulation office, such a thing won't happen, and we will still see Koreans getting the prize share they deserve.
|
On April 05 2013 02:17 Technique wrote:
It's simple, people need to stop laddering and stop streaming.
And actually get together and practice properly... don't need a ''practice house'' for this... just a few like minded top players.
okay, find me some practice partners in NA that are willing to quit school/work to make 0 money and practice with me 12 hours a day to keep up.
Oh wait? You can't?
I would do fucking anything to be able to play on a real pro house full time, but it's actually impossible right now unless you have some fluke showing at a tournament or swear enough on your stream to get noticed by a team with money.
And don't even try to act like you can get noticed through online tournaments.. The last Zotac finals were polt vs jjakji for fucks sake, and as a guy grinding games in his grandparent's basement, I sure as hell cannot compete with 2 gsl winners.
the NA scene (and EU to a lesser extent) NEEDS something to foster some form of legitimate competition to make actually playing this game seem worthwhile to more than the 4-5 foreign players in the world that can compete with koreans.
|
On April 05 2013 03:25 StrifeIsBack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:18 Type|NarutO wrote:
No one is argueing that we need leagues in NA/EU. People are argueing about Korean participation should be allowed or not.
The thread is technically about why we prefer foreigners over koreans. Not either of the two things brought about in my quote or your quote. Yet in my previous post I go on to talk about why I prefer foreigners over koreans, and why koreans are bad for SC2 and esports as a whole.
You sir have blown my mind.
I don't even.... O_o
|
I think full nation ban is silly. A full permission is euqaly silly.
Allow a percantage of lets say 30% of player base to come from another "nation, continent". Problem solved.
|
On April 05 2013 03:28 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:21 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:19 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:15 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 03:01 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:40 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:34 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:31 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:25 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:22 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Professional coaching is a critical part of practice and that is one area where NA and EU simply lacks professionals who can fill that role. Everyone does better with a coach in all aspects of competition and the Olympics has proven this over and over. Management of your practice schedule and objective review of your performance is key to success in any competitive field and it is a key area that NA and EU teams need to double down on. Players can coach/help each other... it's the most effective thing in such a ''new'' sport/game since there won't be a guy who ''done'' and ''seen'' it all like some old boxing coach or w/e. Also if this is all you do... who needs a schedule? Just keep massing those practice games together... If it were that easy, people would just do it. That is not the type of system that the Kespa teams have and they are doing the best right now. Kespa teams have coaches that schedule, review games and manage the players, the amount they practice and what they practice. There is a reason Coach Park has the most winning record of all the Kespa coaches and his teams do the best. They don't just mass practice, they practice better than other teams because he manages how they practice. Pretty sure people have done exactly what i said and became top players... Thing is however... Korea simply has MUCH more serious rts players... that's all there is to it. Flash and Life did not do that. Neither did Parting. They all had coaches, teams and groups around them managing them, helping them practice. These players did not become amazing just by grinding out games together. Its not about man hours and dedication, its about infrastructure. A coach can't do anything a group of dedicated players can't do for there selfs... Problem is players are streaming and laddering instead, which really is a time waste... Artosis and every professional in the industry disagrees with you and the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor that players do better with coaches. A group of passionate, dedicated players will not do as well as the same group with a professional coach. Coach Park is the best example, who lead every team he coached to a winning record and the play offs in Proleague. You also don't understand why NA teams stream, even on TL, who has korean players that stream. They don't do it for the money from streaming, but to provide numbers to their sponsors, who support the teams ability to travel to different events. Ok tell me one thing that coach can do that a dedicated player can't do on his own? It's all about self discipline. Those coaches got nothing to teach... this ain't some old sport like boxing/football etc... Also you think i don't understand they stream for money because i say it's a time waste? I was speaking from a point of view were players try to catch up to the Korean skill level... streaming and long ladder sessions can't be part of that. Mindset, mentality, stress handling, scheduling, offering a neutral observation of your game. Why do professional sport athletes have coaches? Because they do have insight. A coach can't have a proper observation of your game unless he's as high a level as you are... which like i said before, players can help each other with such ''coaching''. The offline tournament stress should be gone after a few tournaments as well. And didn't i mention that you can't compare this to old sports? For obvious reasons.
No, you don't need to be as good as a progamer in terms of mechanical skill to actually be good at understanding the game.
|
If i were american, i would love to see a american only tourney. Just like most norwegians love to watch the norwegian football league. I wish the scene was bigger in Norway, I assume Snute would have been untouchable. No fun.
But lets say a tournament region locks to scandinavians only once every year, seed 32 players and have a tournament for a weekend. I wouldve loved it! Battle for the "King in the north" title.....
|
On April 05 2013 03:31 nvs. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:25 StrifeIsBack wrote:On April 05 2013 03:18 Type|NarutO wrote:
No one is argueing that we need leagues in NA/EU. People are argueing about Korean participation should be allowed or not.
The thread is technically about why we prefer foreigners over koreans. Not either of the two things brought about in my quote or your quote. Yet in my previous post I go on to talk about why I prefer foreigners over koreans, and why koreans are bad for SC2 and esports as a whole. You sir have blown my mind. I don't even.... O_o
Haaha xD he doesn't know that THERE WOULDN'T BE A SC2 PRO-SCENE without Koreans...
|
On April 05 2013 03:31 Glurkenspurk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:17 Technique wrote:
It's simple, people need to stop laddering and stop streaming.
And actually get together and practice properly... don't need a ''practice house'' for this... just a few like minded top players. okay, find me some practice partners in NA that are willing to quit school/work to make 0 money and practice with me 12 hours a day to keep up. Oh wait? You can't? I would do fucking anything to be able to play on a real pro house full time, but it's actually impossible right now unless you have some fluke showing at a tournament or swear enough on your stream to get noticed by a team with money. And don't even try to act like you can get noticed through online tournaments.. The last Zotac finals were polt vs jjakji for fucks sake, and as a guy grinding games in his grandparent's basement, I sure as hell cannot compete with 2 gsl winners. the NA scene (and EU to a lesser extent) NEEDS something to foster some form of legitimate competition to make actually playing this game seem worthwhile to more than the 4-5 foreign players in the world that can compete with koreans.
Blizzard isn't going to dump millions into a tournament so that the ~170 NA grandmaster players who aren't on a pro team and instead live in their grandparent's basement can have a chance at some welfare tournament money. The rest of the population playing the game and watching the pros play don't need an incentive to make "playing the game seem worthwhile" beyond the fact that they enjoy playing Starcraft.
I still have yet to read a convincing explanation as to how this is going to be different from NASL when it started and how it will avoid the problems that they encountered.
|
On April 05 2013 03:46 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:28 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:21 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:19 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:15 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 03:01 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:40 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:34 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:31 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:25 Technique wrote:
[quote]
Players can coach/help each other... it's the most effective thing in such a ''new'' sport/game since there won't be a guy who ''done'' and ''seen'' it all like some old boxing coach or w/e.
Also if this is all you do... who needs a schedule? Just keep massing those practice games together...
If it were that easy, people would just do it. That is not the type of system that the Kespa teams have and they are doing the best right now. Kespa teams have coaches that schedule, review games and manage the players, the amount they practice and what they practice. There is a reason Coach Park has the most winning record of all the Kespa coaches and his teams do the best. They don't just mass practice, they practice better than other teams because he manages how they practice. Pretty sure people have done exactly what i said and became top players... Thing is however... Korea simply has MUCH more serious rts players... that's all there is to it. Flash and Life did not do that. Neither did Parting. They all had coaches, teams and groups around them managing them, helping them practice. These players did not become amazing just by grinding out games together. Its not about man hours and dedication, its about infrastructure. A coach can't do anything a group of dedicated players can't do for there selfs... Problem is players are streaming and laddering instead, which really is a time waste... Artosis and every professional in the industry disagrees with you and the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor that players do better with coaches. A group of passionate, dedicated players will not do as well as the same group with a professional coach. Coach Park is the best example, who lead every team he coached to a winning record and the play offs in Proleague. You also don't understand why NA teams stream, even on TL, who has korean players that stream. They don't do it for the money from streaming, but to provide numbers to their sponsors, who support the teams ability to travel to different events. Ok tell me one thing that coach can do that a dedicated player can't do on his own? It's all about self discipline. Those coaches got nothing to teach... this ain't some old sport like boxing/football etc... Also you think i don't understand they stream for money because i say it's a time waste? I was speaking from a point of view were players try to catch up to the Korean skill level... streaming and long ladder sessions can't be part of that. Mindset, mentality, stress handling, scheduling, offering a neutral observation of your game. Why do professional sport athletes have coaches? Because they do have insight. A coach can't have a proper observation of your game unless he's as high a level as you are... which like i said before, players can help each other with such ''coaching''. The offline tournament stress should be gone after a few tournaments as well. And didn't i mention that you can't compare this to old sports? For obvious reasons. No, you don't need to be as good as a progamer in terms of mechanical skill to actually be good at understanding the game.
Some one who is not actively training will at best be able to follow the metagame and recognize the timings from a observer point of view... that's nothing special/useful.
You will need to get ahead of the curve and estimate timings/strats with limited information if you want to separate yourself from the other ''top'' players.
|
On April 05 2013 03:25 StrifeIsBack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:18 Type|NarutO wrote:
No one is argueing that we need leagues in NA/EU. People are argueing about Korean participation should be allowed or not.
The thread is technically about why we prefer foreigners over koreans. Not either of the two things brought about in my quote or your quote. Yet in my previous post I go on to talk about why I prefer foreigners over koreans, and why koreans are bad for SC2 and esports as a whole.
Jesus what a nut job. Luckily the 120,000 people who watched Flash vs Life at MLG disagree with you.
Without Korea Sc2 esports is the same shitty amateur mess we see in Dota 2 where there's barely any tournaments and what we did have is incredibly low quality and unprofessional aside from when developer money is involved.
Not to mention that the standard of play would be far, far lower as foreigners would practice even less than they do now.
|
On April 05 2013 03:52 Cyrak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:31 Glurkenspurk wrote:On April 05 2013 02:17 Technique wrote:
It's simple, people need to stop laddering and stop streaming.
And actually get together and practice properly... don't need a ''practice house'' for this... just a few like minded top players. okay, find me some practice partners in NA that are willing to quit school/work to make 0 money and practice with me 12 hours a day to keep up. Oh wait? You can't? I would do fucking anything to be able to play on a real pro house full time, but it's actually impossible right now unless you have some fluke showing at a tournament or swear enough on your stream to get noticed by a team with money. And don't even try to act like you can get noticed through online tournaments.. The last Zotac finals were polt vs jjakji for fucks sake, and as a guy grinding games in his grandparent's basement, I sure as hell cannot compete with 2 gsl winners. the NA scene (and EU to a lesser extent) NEEDS something to foster some form of legitimate competition to make actually playing this game seem worthwhile to more than the 4-5 foreign players in the world that can compete with koreans. Blizzard isn't going to dump millions into a tournament so that the ~170 NA grandmaster players who aren't on a pro team and instead live in their grandparent's basement can have a chance at some welfare tournament money. The rest of the population playing the game and watching the pros play don't need an incentive to make "playing the game seem worthwhile" beyond the fact that they enjoy playing Starcraft. I still have yet to read a convincing explanation as to how this is going to be different from NASL when it started and how it will avoid the problems that they encountered.
So basically you're all for a stagnation of the pro scene and no competition outside of Korea?
Welp. I can't argue with that. Fuck it.
|
On April 05 2013 03:55 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:46 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:28 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:21 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:19 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:15 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 03:01 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:40 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:34 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:31 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
If it were that easy, people would just do it. That is not the type of system that the Kespa teams have and they are doing the best right now. Kespa teams have coaches that schedule, review games and manage the players, the amount they practice and what they practice. There is a reason Coach Park has the most winning record of all the Kespa coaches and his teams do the best. They don't just mass practice, they practice better than other teams because he manages how they practice. Pretty sure people have done exactly what i said and became top players... Thing is however... Korea simply has MUCH more serious rts players... that's all there is to it. Flash and Life did not do that. Neither did Parting. They all had coaches, teams and groups around them managing them, helping them practice. These players did not become amazing just by grinding out games together. Its not about man hours and dedication, its about infrastructure. A coach can't do anything a group of dedicated players can't do for there selfs... Problem is players are streaming and laddering instead, which really is a time waste... Artosis and every professional in the industry disagrees with you and the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor that players do better with coaches. A group of passionate, dedicated players will not do as well as the same group with a professional coach. Coach Park is the best example, who lead every team he coached to a winning record and the play offs in Proleague. You also don't understand why NA teams stream, even on TL, who has korean players that stream. They don't do it for the money from streaming, but to provide numbers to their sponsors, who support the teams ability to travel to different events. Ok tell me one thing that coach can do that a dedicated player can't do on his own? It's all about self discipline. Those coaches got nothing to teach... this ain't some old sport like boxing/football etc... Also you think i don't understand they stream for money because i say it's a time waste? I was speaking from a point of view were players try to catch up to the Korean skill level... streaming and long ladder sessions can't be part of that. Mindset, mentality, stress handling, scheduling, offering a neutral observation of your game. Why do professional sport athletes have coaches? Because they do have insight. A coach can't have a proper observation of your game unless he's as high a level as you are... which like i said before, players can help each other with such ''coaching''. The offline tournament stress should be gone after a few tournaments as well. And didn't i mention that you can't compare this to old sports? For obvious reasons. No, you don't need to be as good as a progamer in terms of mechanical skill to actually be good at understanding the game. Some one who is not actively training will at best be able to follow the metagame and recognize the timings from a observer point of view... that's nothing special/useful. You will need to get ahead of the curve and estimate timings/strats with limited information if you want to separate yourself from the other ''top'' players.
You don't know what you are talking about and being an arm chair team manager. Why would Liquid Naz'gul and EG hire Coach Park if he isn't anything special? And why did his teams do so well in Proleague?
|
On April 05 2013 03:55 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:46 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:28 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:21 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:19 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:15 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 03:01 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:40 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:34 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:31 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
If it were that easy, people would just do it. That is not the type of system that the Kespa teams have and they are doing the best right now. Kespa teams have coaches that schedule, review games and manage the players, the amount they practice and what they practice. There is a reason Coach Park has the most winning record of all the Kespa coaches and his teams do the best. They don't just mass practice, they practice better than other teams because he manages how they practice. Pretty sure people have done exactly what i said and became top players... Thing is however... Korea simply has MUCH more serious rts players... that's all there is to it. Flash and Life did not do that. Neither did Parting. They all had coaches, teams and groups around them managing them, helping them practice. These players did not become amazing just by grinding out games together. Its not about man hours and dedication, its about infrastructure. A coach can't do anything a group of dedicated players can't do for there selfs... Problem is players are streaming and laddering instead, which really is a time waste... Artosis and every professional in the industry disagrees with you and the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor that players do better with coaches. A group of passionate, dedicated players will not do as well as the same group with a professional coach. Coach Park is the best example, who lead every team he coached to a winning record and the play offs in Proleague. You also don't understand why NA teams stream, even on TL, who has korean players that stream. They don't do it for the money from streaming, but to provide numbers to their sponsors, who support the teams ability to travel to different events. Ok tell me one thing that coach can do that a dedicated player can't do on his own? It's all about self discipline. Those coaches got nothing to teach... this ain't some old sport like boxing/football etc... Also you think i don't understand they stream for money because i say it's a time waste? I was speaking from a point of view were players try to catch up to the Korean skill level... streaming and long ladder sessions can't be part of that. Mindset, mentality, stress handling, scheduling, offering a neutral observation of your game. Why do professional sport athletes have coaches? Because they do have insight. A coach can't have a proper observation of your game unless he's as high a level as you are... which like i said before, players can help each other with such ''coaching''. The offline tournament stress should be gone after a few tournaments as well. And didn't i mention that you can't compare this to old sports? For obvious reasons. No, you don't need to be as good as a progamer in terms of mechanical skill to actually be good at understanding the game. Some one who is not actively training will at best be able to follow the metagame and recognize the timings from a observer point of view... that's nothing special/useful. You will need to get ahead of the curve and estimate timings/strats with limited information if you want to separate yourself from the other ''top'' players.
What kind of understanding can you bring to the table if it comes to the pro scene? Lots of players gain insight from watching the games and understanding the timings, because they don't have the problems you have as a player, which is incomplete information. They can immediately tell during or after a game how the timings will work out, where you could have improved or how to create timings.
Only because you are mechanically not fit doesn't mean you cannot create strategy. I'll never be as good as Korean pros, yet I can discuss strategy with my friends among the German / European pros, because I understand strategies and their problems as well as the timing windows, doesn't mean I'm mechanically capable of playing them or executing them.
|
This is hilarious. One of the biggest qualms people had with KeSPA is that they effectively made BW only for Korean gamers. The fact that people are complaining that we have too much integration is hilarious, before it was about how Foreigners could not play Koreans which drove the foreigner scene to not be nearly as good as the pro Korean scene. These rant OP's are getting more and more ridiculous.
|
I liken the region locking to the same as if the 4 grand slams of tennis being region locked.
I wonder how much bullshit there'd be if the Australian only allowed Asian/Australian competitors. Roland Garros only French and Euros. Wimbledon only British and Euros, and the US Open only americans.
yes we'll get to see britain finally win a wimbledon again! yay... and a french player win a french! and an australian win the AUS, and roddick can finally win another US Open again... and then have Federer/Djokovic/Nadal arrive at the year end final competition, and have them take 1/2/3 over the other 4 slots given to the grandslam winners.
THATS EXACTLY what's happening here.
|
On April 05 2013 04:00 docvoc wrote:
This is hilarious. One of the biggest qualms people had with KeSPA is that they effectively made BW only for Korean gamers. The fact that people are complaining that we have too much integration is hilarious, before it was about how Foreigners could not play Koreans which drove the foreigner scene to not be nearly as good as the pro Korean scene. These rant OP's are getting more and more ridiculous.
What most people want is a middle ground obviously. Like exactly what you get in football.
The best sport of all -- football, is built on combining a domestic and international scene and getting the best of both worlds.
Sc2 should do the same and this plan does this.
|
On April 05 2013 04:04 Kazeyonoma wrote:
I liken the region locking to the same as if the 4 grand slams of tennis being region locked.
I wonder how much bullshit there'd be if the Australian only allowed Asian/Australian competitors. Roland Garros only French and Euros. Wimbledon only British and Euros, and the US Open only americans.
yes we'll get to see britain finally win a wimbledon again! yay... and a french player win a french! and an australian win the AUS, and roddick can finally win another US Open again... and then have Federer/Djokovic/Nadal arrive at the year end final competition, and have them take 1/2/3 over the other 4 slots given to the grandslam winners.
THATS EXACTLY what's happening here.
Football does exactly this.
|
On April 05 2013 02:23 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:20 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:12 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:27 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:09 Aterons_toss wrote:
If you are going to do that you might as well just make it Korea only because non will have a chance to qualify,this way you might have a few foreigners make it to ro8 or even ro4 if not than the 3 foreigners will surely have no chance.
And it won't "encourage" the growth of the scene, it will encourage the growth of Korea.
Even if you "take their money away" Europeans and Americans won't become Koreans, I could bet that for every foreign player if they had to chose between practicing for 14 hours or not making money they would get the hell out and go to college or find a job.
If you look at most of the successful foreigner in strategy game in general they are people like Grubby and Stephano, people that quite college for an year to try the game and became really good based on their tactics, that's why I would assume you see foreigners doing better at the beginning of BW, WC3 and SC2 than toward the end... because there is still shit to figure out.
I don't think 99% of the people you see playing starcraft outside of Korea have the mentality or live in the conditions where it would be enjoyable for them to literally train 10 to 14 hours a day for years and years to than ( sometimes ) come to fame and win about the same amount of money you would if you would have put all those hours into university ( do note that in most European countries going to a university is much cheaper than in America ).
Koreans can ( imo ) play that much for that long because :
a) incentive due to their crazy educational system
b) incentive because they can literally become nation wide celebrities and most of them probably see starcraft much like we see footbal here or as Americans see basketball
c)a place where they can do that type of stuff without having thousands of dollars saved up to keep themselves alive or being forced to move to another country practicing 10 to 14 hours in a well structured team house in the exact same environment as the Koreans will not produce the same skills. Let me give you an example, Idra did that korean team house thing for years, and nony still came along came out of his 5 year retirement and trained for 2 weeks at his house in USA and proceed to roflstomp idra without that korean team house environment. saying koreans are better because of their educational system, because of their culture, because of their race is so wrong, do you think their education and culture and race allow ppl like mvp, taejja and flash and many others grind through the pain that is carpal tunnel and refuse to let up? and then surgically repair the wrist and keep at it? Contributing the each individual player's achievement to their race and culture is racism. Ya even if it's a positive praise, you are taking away the glory from the person and giving it to their race, and say their culture produced it. Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea. Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism. "I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts. Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better. Your proof is two boX? He lost to F91 and NonY. F91 being one of the very best Zergs at that time also taking games off of NaDa and NonY being an execptional player as well winning close by 3-2 ... not even taking the games into account. I can still remember his cancelled cc into gg. Your arguments are not just weak, but barely there. ya, after ad hominem, you decide to use strawman fallacy, labeling my evidence as weak does not take away the fact these evidence supports my argument, korean practice environment, and hard working that was idra did not respect the game, did not respect his opponent, did not have the skill to beat 2 people who did not practice nearly as hard as he did nor did those 2 person grind it out in korea as he did. tell me what do you think talent is in the game of sc2? Were you involved into Starcraft Broodwar? Because it sure does seem like you were not. NonY was an expectional player who did practice on iccup against mostly Koreans and tried to smooth out his builds as much as possible. You could always tell by the build order and placement who was playing. F91 was one of the chinese pros that were very similar to the Korean scene actually. F91, Legend ... if I remember correctly they even went to Korea for a short period of time and they sure did practice just as much as the Koreans. Also NonY was actually one of the very few persons IdrA did respect, resulting in him gg'ing out of every game, but it seems like you will not back off your point even if proven wrong.
you proved what wrong? I have both nony and Idra in my team, we ended up needing to kick idra out for smurfing in a clan match, F91 was not in korea, and he wasn't consider to be on part with any big name korean.
the whole reason i bought those these 2 boX is to support my argument that korean practice environment is not the key factor to produce results. You have said nothing to disprove that argument. By saying F91 and nony was respectable argument does not take away the fact that they both beat idra without using the korean practice environment. This is evidence for "practice environment is not the key factor to better result"
If you want to disprove me, you would have to put down your own evidences such as a foreigner being in korean practice environment have produce consistent results against the koreans. (hell idra wasn't even fighting koreans for those 2 best of X and he still got his ass kicked)
and then I gave you even more evidence about stephano did not need the korean practice environment to produce consistent results against the koreans. again this also support my argument that which is " practice environment is not the key factor to better result , i am not saying it would not help, but without talent no amount of practice can make you on part with the truly talented.
You make tons of fallacies and I even point it out to you, yet you still say you proven me wrong?
|
On April 05 2013 03:26 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:25 StrifeIsBack wrote:On April 05 2013 03:18 Type|NarutO wrote:
No one is argueing that we need leagues in NA/EU. People are argueing about Korean participation should be allowed or not.
The thread is technically about why we prefer foreigners over koreans. Not either of the two things brought about in my quote or your quote. Yet in my previous post I go on to talk about why I prefer foreigners over koreans, and why koreans are bad for SC2 and esports as a whole. Bad for Starcraft 2 and eSports as a whole, you cannot be serious. Really you cannot.
Truly can be serious. Read my post? League is far superior to SC2 due to the NA scene, and not having Koreans dominate foreigners 24/7 every tournament lol.
Don't get me wrong Koreans made SC and BW what it is but I never played back then nor cared for it. The reason I am interested in SC2 is foreigners I don't give two fucks to see flash win every GSL or MLG. problem with that?
|
Should there be a NA only or EU only tournament?
Absolutely.
Just like in English football we have the Premier League, then the rest.
And anyways, the tournaments where its been Korean dominated have way fewer views than something mostly composed of NA and EUs. Contrary to what some people think, loads of people do not want to see faceless Korean beat faceless Korean in X tournament as evident from the views as mentioned.
|
On April 05 2013 04:05 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:04 Kazeyonoma wrote:
I liken the region locking to the same as if the 4 grand slams of tennis being region locked.
I wonder how much bullshit there'd be if the Australian only allowed Asian/Australian competitors. Roland Garros only French and Euros. Wimbledon only British and Euros, and the US Open only americans.
yes we'll get to see britain finally win a wimbledon again! yay... and a french player win a french! and an australian win the AUS, and roddick can finally win another US Open again... and then have Federer/Djokovic/Nadal arrive at the year end final competition, and have them take 1/2/3 over the other 4 slots given to the grandslam winners.
THATS EXACTLY what's happening here. Football does exactly this.
And you are telling me that the fans do not freak out and shut off the TV claiming that the other leagues are "welfare" for bad players and demand to see the top team play every day of the week?
This sounds like madness, unheard of madness.
|
I want neither Koreans nor "foreigners" -- this distinction is meaningless to me. I want the highest skill. I want to be awed.
Right now, Koreans provide that. So that's who I want to watch, almost exclusively. If that were to change to, say, Icelanders, I would abandon the Koreans in moments.
Nationality is beyond meaningless. Give me greatness.
|
On April 05 2013 04:05 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:04 Kazeyonoma wrote:
I liken the region locking to the same as if the 4 grand slams of tennis being region locked.
I wonder how much bullshit there'd be if the Australian only allowed Asian/Australian competitors. Roland Garros only French and Euros. Wimbledon only British and Euros, and the US Open only americans.
yes we'll get to see britain finally win a wimbledon again! yay... and a french player win a french! and an australian win the AUS, and roddick can finally win another US Open again... and then have Federer/Djokovic/Nadal arrive at the year end final competition, and have them take 1/2/3 over the other 4 slots given to the grandslam winners.
THATS EXACTLY what's happening here. Football does exactly this.
Ah then you could compare Koreans with Barcelona and Messi = Flash.
|
On April 05 2013 04:07 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:23 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 02:20 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:12 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:27 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:09 Aterons_toss wrote:
If you are going to do that you might as well just make it Korea only because non will have a chance to qualify,this way you might have a few foreigners make it to ro8 or even ro4 if not than the 3 foreigners will surely have no chance.
And it won't "encourage" the growth of the scene, it will encourage the growth of Korea.
Even if you "take their money away" Europeans and Americans won't become Koreans, I could bet that for every foreign player if they had to chose between practicing for 14 hours or not making money they would get the hell out and go to college or find a job.
If you look at most of the successful foreigner in strategy game in general they are people like Grubby and Stephano, people that quite college for an year to try the game and became really good based on their tactics, that's why I would assume you see foreigners doing better at the beginning of BW, WC3 and SC2 than toward the end... because there is still shit to figure out.
I don't think 99% of the people you see playing starcraft outside of Korea have the mentality or live in the conditions where it would be enjoyable for them to literally train 10 to 14 hours a day for years and years to than ( sometimes ) come to fame and win about the same amount of money you would if you would have put all those hours into university ( do note that in most European countries going to a university is much cheaper than in America ).
Koreans can ( imo ) play that much for that long because :
a) incentive due to their crazy educational system
b) incentive because they can literally become nation wide celebrities and most of them probably see starcraft much like we see footbal here or as Americans see basketball
c)a place where they can do that type of stuff without having thousands of dollars saved up to keep themselves alive or being forced to move to another country practicing 10 to 14 hours in a well structured team house in the exact same environment as the Koreans will not produce the same skills. Let me give you an example, Idra did that korean team house thing for years, and nony still came along came out of his 5 year retirement and trained for 2 weeks at his house in USA and proceed to roflstomp idra without that korean team house environment. saying koreans are better because of their educational system, because of their culture, because of their race is so wrong, do you think their education and culture and race allow ppl like mvp, taejja and flash and many others grind through the pain that is carpal tunnel and refuse to let up? and then surgically repair the wrist and keep at it? Contributing the each individual player's achievement to their race and culture is racism. Ya even if it's a positive praise, you are taking away the glory from the person and giving it to their race, and say their culture produced it. Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea. Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism. "I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts. Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better. Your proof is two boX? He lost to F91 and NonY. F91 being one of the very best Zergs at that time also taking games off of NaDa and NonY being an execptional player as well winning close by 3-2 ... not even taking the games into account. I can still remember his cancelled cc into gg. Your arguments are not just weak, but barely there. ya, after ad hominem, you decide to use strawman fallacy, labeling my evidence as weak does not take away the fact these evidence supports my argument, korean practice environment, and hard working that was idra did not respect the game, did not respect his opponent, did not have the skill to beat 2 people who did not practice nearly as hard as he did nor did those 2 person grind it out in korea as he did. tell me what do you think talent is in the game of sc2? Were you involved into Starcraft Broodwar? Because it sure does seem like you were not. NonY was an expectional player who did practice on iccup against mostly Koreans and tried to smooth out his builds as much as possible. You could always tell by the build order and placement who was playing. F91 was one of the chinese pros that were very similar to the Korean scene actually. F91, Legend ... if I remember correctly they even went to Korea for a short period of time and they sure did practice just as much as the Koreans. Also NonY was actually one of the very few persons IdrA did respect, resulting in him gg'ing out of every game, but it seems like you will not back off your point even if proven wrong. you proved what wrong? I have both nony and Idra in my team, we ended up needing to kick idra out for smurfing in a clan match, F91 was not in korea, and he wasn't consider to be on part with any big name korean. the whole reason i bought those these 2 boX is to support my argument that korean practice environment is not the key factor to produce results. You have said nothing to disprove that argument. By saying F91 and nony was respectable argument does not take away the fact that they both beat idra without using the korean practice environment. This is evidence for "practice environment is not the key factor to better result" If you want to disprove me, you would have to put down your own evidences such as a foreigner being in korean practice environment have produce consistent results against the koreans. (hell idra wasn't even fighting koreans for those 2 best of X and he still got his ass kicked) and then I gave you even more evidence about stephano did not need the korean practice environment to produce consistent results against the koreans. against this also support my argument that which is " practice environment is not the key factor to better result , i am not saying it would not help, but without talent no amount of practice can make you on part with the truly talented. You make tons of fallacies and I even point it out to you, yet you still say you proven me wrong?
Your argument changes like the phases of the moon and you don't really accept any evidence he provides. It is impossible to prove someone wrong without a third party overseeing the argument, because one side must accept they are wrong.
|
On April 05 2013 04:08 StrifeIsBack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:26 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:25 StrifeIsBack wrote:On April 05 2013 03:18 Type|NarutO wrote:
No one is argueing that we need leagues in NA/EU. People are argueing about Korean participation should be allowed or not.
The thread is technically about why we prefer foreigners over koreans. Not either of the two things brought about in my quote or your quote. Yet in my previous post I go on to talk about why I prefer foreigners over koreans, and why koreans are bad for SC2 and esports as a whole. Bad for Starcraft 2 and eSports as a whole, you cannot be serious. Really you cannot. Truly can be serious. Read my post? League is far superior to SC2 due to the NA scene, and not having Koreans dominate foreigners 24/7 every tournament lol.
Koreans are the best at LoL though. They might not play every tournament but they're still the best, so basically LoL operates the same system are Blizzard are putting in here.
What you said was the Koreans are bad for Sc2, which is retarded. Just like saying Brazilians are bad for football, or black people are bad for Basketball.
|
On April 05 2013 03:59 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:55 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:46 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:28 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:21 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:19 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:15 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 03:01 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:40 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:34 Technique wrote:
[quote]
Pretty sure people have done exactly what i said and became top players...
Thing is however... Korea simply has MUCH more serious rts players... that's all there is to it. Flash and Life did not do that. Neither did Parting. They all had coaches, teams and groups around them managing them, helping them practice. These players did not become amazing just by grinding out games together. Its not about man hours and dedication, its about infrastructure. A coach can't do anything a group of dedicated players can't do for there selfs... Problem is players are streaming and laddering instead, which really is a time waste... Artosis and every professional in the industry disagrees with you and the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor that players do better with coaches. A group of passionate, dedicated players will not do as well as the same group with a professional coach. Coach Park is the best example, who lead every team he coached to a winning record and the play offs in Proleague. You also don't understand why NA teams stream, even on TL, who has korean players that stream. They don't do it for the money from streaming, but to provide numbers to their sponsors, who support the teams ability to travel to different events. Ok tell me one thing that coach can do that a dedicated player can't do on his own? It's all about self discipline. Those coaches got nothing to teach... this ain't some old sport like boxing/football etc... Also you think i don't understand they stream for money because i say it's a time waste? I was speaking from a point of view were players try to catch up to the Korean skill level... streaming and long ladder sessions can't be part of that. Mindset, mentality, stress handling, scheduling, offering a neutral observation of your game. Why do professional sport athletes have coaches? Because they do have insight. A coach can't have a proper observation of your game unless he's as high a level as you are... which like i said before, players can help each other with such ''coaching''. The offline tournament stress should be gone after a few tournaments as well. And didn't i mention that you can't compare this to old sports? For obvious reasons. No, you don't need to be as good as a progamer in terms of mechanical skill to actually be good at understanding the game. Some one who is not actively training will at best be able to follow the metagame and recognize the timings from a observer point of view... that's nothing special/useful. You will need to get ahead of the curve and estimate timings/strats with limited information if you want to separate yourself from the other ''top'' players. What kind of understanding can you bring to the table if it comes to the pro scene? Lots of players gain insight from watching the games and understanding the timings, because they don't have the problems you have as a player, which is incomplete information. They can immediately tell during or after a game how the timings will work out, where you could have improved or how to create timings. Only because you are mechanically not fit doesn't mean you cannot create strategy. I'll never be as good as Korean pros, yet I can discuss strategy with my friends among the German / European pros, because I understand strategies and their problems as well as the timing windows, doesn't mean I'm mechanically capable of playing them or executing them.
It's an illusion, you only think you can.
There are so much variables that new game specific timings occur which you as non pro player won't recognize.
Players like mvp are CONSTANTLY re adjusting and re evaluating the situation in game.
Not to speak of having to deal with ''new'' strats in tournaments like GSL were people prepare specifically for one opponent.
I don't know who the coach on the IM team is... but i tell you, Nestea and MVP are each others best coach...
Either way, bored of this discussion.
|
On April 05 2013 04:07 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:23 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 02:20 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:12 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:27 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:09 Aterons_toss wrote:
If you are going to do that you might as well just make it Korea only because non will have a chance to qualify,this way you might have a few foreigners make it to ro8 or even ro4 if not than the 3 foreigners will surely have no chance.
And it won't "encourage" the growth of the scene, it will encourage the growth of Korea.
Even if you "take their money away" Europeans and Americans won't become Koreans, I could bet that for every foreign player if they had to chose between practicing for 14 hours or not making money they would get the hell out and go to college or find a job.
If you look at most of the successful foreigner in strategy game in general they are people like Grubby and Stephano, people that quite college for an year to try the game and became really good based on their tactics, that's why I would assume you see foreigners doing better at the beginning of BW, WC3 and SC2 than toward the end... because there is still shit to figure out.
I don't think 99% of the people you see playing starcraft outside of Korea have the mentality or live in the conditions where it would be enjoyable for them to literally train 10 to 14 hours a day for years and years to than ( sometimes ) come to fame and win about the same amount of money you would if you would have put all those hours into university ( do note that in most European countries going to a university is much cheaper than in America ).
Koreans can ( imo ) play that much for that long because :
a) incentive due to their crazy educational system
b) incentive because they can literally become nation wide celebrities and most of them probably see starcraft much like we see footbal here or as Americans see basketball
c)a place where they can do that type of stuff without having thousands of dollars saved up to keep themselves alive or being forced to move to another country practicing 10 to 14 hours in a well structured team house in the exact same environment as the Koreans will not produce the same skills. Let me give you an example, Idra did that korean team house thing for years, and nony still came along came out of his 5 year retirement and trained for 2 weeks at his house in USA and proceed to roflstomp idra without that korean team house environment. saying koreans are better because of their educational system, because of their culture, because of their race is so wrong, do you think their education and culture and race allow ppl like mvp, taejja and flash and many others grind through the pain that is carpal tunnel and refuse to let up? and then surgically repair the wrist and keep at it? Contributing the each individual player's achievement to their race and culture is racism. Ya even if it's a positive praise, you are taking away the glory from the person and giving it to their race, and say their culture produced it. Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea. Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism. "I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts. Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better. Your proof is two boX? He lost to F91 and NonY. F91 being one of the very best Zergs at that time also taking games off of NaDa and NonY being an execptional player as well winning close by 3-2 ... not even taking the games into account. I can still remember his cancelled cc into gg. Your arguments are not just weak, but barely there. ya, after ad hominem, you decide to use strawman fallacy, labeling my evidence as weak does not take away the fact these evidence supports my argument, korean practice environment, and hard working that was idra did not respect the game, did not respect his opponent, did not have the skill to beat 2 people who did not practice nearly as hard as he did nor did those 2 person grind it out in korea as he did. tell me what do you think talent is in the game of sc2? Were you involved into Starcraft Broodwar? Because it sure does seem like you were not. NonY was an expectional player who did practice on iccup against mostly Koreans and tried to smooth out his builds as much as possible. You could always tell by the build order and placement who was playing. F91 was one of the chinese pros that were very similar to the Korean scene actually. F91, Legend ... if I remember correctly they even went to Korea for a short period of time and they sure did practice just as much as the Koreans. Also NonY was actually one of the very few persons IdrA did respect, resulting in him gg'ing out of every game, but it seems like you will not back off your point even if proven wrong. you proved what wrong? I have both nony and Idra in my team, we ended up needing to kick idra out for smurfing in a clan match, F91 was not in korea, and he wasn't consider to be on part with any big name korean. the whole reason i bought those these 2 boX is to support my argument that korean practice environment is not the key factor to produce results. You have said nothing to disprove that argument. By saying F91 and nony was respectable argument does not take away the fact that they both beat idra without using the korean practice environment. This is evidence for "practice environment is not the key factor to better result" If you want to disprove me, you would have to put down your own evidences such as a foreigner being in korean practice environment have produce consistent results against the koreans. (hell idra wasn't even fighting koreans for those 2 best of X and he still got his ass kicked) and then I gave you even more evidence about stephano did not need the korean practice environment to produce consistent results against the koreans. against this also support my argument that which is " practice environment is not the key factor to better result , i am not saying it would not help, but without talent no amount of practice can make you on part with the truly talented. You make tons of fallacies and I even point it out to you, yet you still say you proven me wrong?
Statistic minority doesn't matter in overall statistics. Thats just how it is. Because IdrA doesn't put up amazing results (note: he did put up results) is not reflection of Korean training. Besides that Korean practice and especially Koreans do benefit from not having a language barrier. F91 and the chinese training was - in fact - really similar to Korean practice . Also if you cannot beat an argument of me - you simply ignore it. Thats a good way to win an argument against someone who will fall for it. I'll wait for you to actually counter my argument with facts.
I did mention, that you have the proof of superior Korean practice all the time due to Koreans domenating non Koreans. You say its talent, I ask you; is every Korean talented? I ask you to go and see for example rets interview about Korea and how he didn't like it, yet it did improve his play a ton. Even if you argue that Korean training is not key, you cannot deny (at least) the fact that its superior and does - in fact - deliver results.
|
On April 05 2013 04:11 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:08 StrifeIsBack wrote:On April 05 2013 03:26 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:25 StrifeIsBack wrote:On April 05 2013 03:18 Type|NarutO wrote:
No one is argueing that we need leagues in NA/EU. People are argueing about Korean participation should be allowed or not.
The thread is technically about why we prefer foreigners over koreans. Not either of the two things brought about in my quote or your quote. Yet in my previous post I go on to talk about why I prefer foreigners over koreans, and why koreans are bad for SC2 and esports as a whole. Bad for Starcraft 2 and eSports as a whole, you cannot be serious. Really you cannot. Truly can be serious. Read my post? League is far superior to SC2 due to the NA scene, and not having Koreans dominate foreigners 24/7 every tournament lol. Koreans are the best at LoL though. They might not play every tournament but they're still the best, so basically LoL operates the same system are Blizzard are putting in here. What you said was the Koreans are bad for Sc2, which is retarded. Just like saying Brazilians are bad for football, or black people are bad for Basketball.
If you go back and read the damn post I say they are bad for it because it stagnates the scene. You have Flash vs Life every MLG. You have every korean playing every korean every tournament ever. GSL. MLG. Proleague. Every single major tournament is a korean. Foreigners lose interest, and thus viewership drops. Thus titles like League who don't have koreans dominating every god damn tournament flourish, and grow beyond the stagnant StarCraft scene...if you don't get that then you sir have literally blown my mind.
Sure Koreans play League but there are foreigner tournaments that foreigners win because koreans aren't stomping all the fuck over the earth like they are in StarCraft. That's all I'm saying stop having koreans enter every damn tournament or come up with more tournaments that they won't enter into to give foreigners some fucking motivation to give a damn about this game. Money doesn't grow on trees, and people have mouths to feed. They can't stand to sit there and play for 16 hours a day like a korean with nothnig to show for it. I don't think you people truly understand the amount of time koreans put into it versus the amount of time foreigners do lol.
I give credit where credit is due, and that credit is due in SC/BW. Not SC2. I learned of SC2 through streams, and the sort, and it peaked my interest. Foreigners. Not Koreans. Besides Koreans don't really know English like FOREIGNERS do O_O holy poop that's a hard one to grasp I know. I mean I can see a hardcoer fan base wanting to see best of the best of the Koreans sure but a majority doesn't want to see that every game, and the majority is what keeps shit alive.
speaking of MLG look how it went there is no longer an open bracket. It is now invite only, and a MAJORITY of the 32 plaeyrs invited were KOREAN to an AMERICAN tournament ffs. How can America or foreigners in general EVER fucking grow? How can we EVER support a professional starcraft community, let alone eSports over here?
|
On April 05 2013 04:14 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:59 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:55 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:46 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:28 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:21 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:19 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:15 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 03:01 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:40 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Flash and Life did not do that. Neither did Parting. They all had coaches, teams and groups around them managing them, helping them practice. These players did not become amazing just by grinding out games together. Its not about man hours and dedication, its about infrastructure. A coach can't do anything a group of dedicated players can't do for there selfs... Problem is players are streaming and laddering instead, which really is a time waste... Artosis and every professional in the industry disagrees with you and the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor that players do better with coaches. A group of passionate, dedicated players will not do as well as the same group with a professional coach. Coach Park is the best example, who lead every team he coached to a winning record and the play offs in Proleague. You also don't understand why NA teams stream, even on TL, who has korean players that stream. They don't do it for the money from streaming, but to provide numbers to their sponsors, who support the teams ability to travel to different events. Ok tell me one thing that coach can do that a dedicated player can't do on his own? It's all about self discipline. Those coaches got nothing to teach... this ain't some old sport like boxing/football etc... Also you think i don't understand they stream for money because i say it's a time waste? I was speaking from a point of view were players try to catch up to the Korean skill level... streaming and long ladder sessions can't be part of that. Mindset, mentality, stress handling, scheduling, offering a neutral observation of your game. Why do professional sport athletes have coaches? Because they do have insight. A coach can't have a proper observation of your game unless he's as high a level as you are... which like i said before, players can help each other with such ''coaching''. The offline tournament stress should be gone after a few tournaments as well. And didn't i mention that you can't compare this to old sports? For obvious reasons. No, you don't need to be as good as a progamer in terms of mechanical skill to actually be good at understanding the game. Some one who is not actively training will at best be able to follow the metagame and recognize the timings from a observer point of view... that's nothing special/useful. You will need to get ahead of the curve and estimate timings/strats with limited information if you want to separate yourself from the other ''top'' players. What kind of understanding can you bring to the table if it comes to the pro scene? Lots of players gain insight from watching the games and understanding the timings, because they don't have the problems you have as a player, which is incomplete information. They can immediately tell during or after a game how the timings will work out, where you could have improved or how to create timings. Only because you are mechanically not fit doesn't mean you cannot create strategy. I'll never be as good as Korean pros, yet I can discuss strategy with my friends among the German / European pros, because I understand strategies and their problems as well as the timing windows, doesn't mean I'm mechanically capable of playing them or executing them. It's an illusion, you only think you can. There are so much variables that new game specific timings occur which you as non pro player won't recognize. Players like mvp are CONSTANTLY re adjusting and re evaluating the situation in game. Not to speak of having to deal with ''new'' strats in tournaments like GSL were people prepare specifically for one opponent. Either way, bored of this discussion.
I think I can? I know I can and for what reason? Because the pros do agree with me on my opinion. It doesn't matter if you disagree and are bored with that discussion. It also doesn't matter because you cannot provide anything to counterproof that coaches are actually useful to players.
PS: Most coaches were progamers to begin with.
|
On April 05 2013 04:11 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:08 StrifeIsBack wrote:On April 05 2013 03:26 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:25 StrifeIsBack wrote:On April 05 2013 03:18 Type|NarutO wrote:
No one is argueing that we need leagues in NA/EU. People are argueing about Korean participation should be allowed or not.
The thread is technically about why we prefer foreigners over koreans. Not either of the two things brought about in my quote or your quote. Yet in my previous post I go on to talk about why I prefer foreigners over koreans, and why koreans are bad for SC2 and esports as a whole. Bad for Starcraft 2 and eSports as a whole, you cannot be serious. Really you cannot. Truly can be serious. Read my post? League is far superior to SC2 due to the NA scene, and not having Koreans dominate foreigners 24/7 every tournament lol. Koreans are the best at LoL though. They might not play every tournament but they're still the best, so basically LoL operates the same system are Blizzard are putting in here. What you said was the Koreans are bad for Sc2, which is retarded. Just like saying Brazilians are bad for football, or black people are bad for Basketball.
I see his point, though made poorly. He is saying that Brazil would be bad for football if their team game over to every event and crushed every other team. Having Koreans coming over to kick the crap out of all the foreign players is bad for growth, because there are no new foreign players entering the scene. You can't start everyone in grandmasters, some people need to be in masters or diamond.
|
On April 05 2013 04:15 StrifeIsBack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:11 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On April 05 2013 04:08 StrifeIsBack wrote:On April 05 2013 03:26 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:25 StrifeIsBack wrote:On April 05 2013 03:18 Type|NarutO wrote:
No one is argueing that we need leagues in NA/EU. People are argueing about Korean participation should be allowed or not.
The thread is technically about why we prefer foreigners over koreans. Not either of the two things brought about in my quote or your quote. Yet in my previous post I go on to talk about why I prefer foreigners over koreans, and why koreans are bad for SC2 and esports as a whole. Bad for Starcraft 2 and eSports as a whole, you cannot be serious. Really you cannot. Truly can be serious. Read my post? League is far superior to SC2 due to the NA scene, and not having Koreans dominate foreigners 24/7 every tournament lol. Koreans are the best at LoL though. They might not play every tournament but they're still the best, so basically LoL operates the same system are Blizzard are putting in here. What you said was the Koreans are bad for Sc2, which is retarded. Just like saying Brazilians are bad for football, or black people are bad for Basketball. If you go back and read the damn post I say they are bad for it because it stagnates the scene. You have Flash vs Life every MLG. You have every korean playing every korean every tournament ever. GSL. MLG. Proleague. Every single major tournament is a korean. Foreigners lose interest, and thus viewership drops. Thus titles like League who don't have koreans dominating every god damn tournament flourish, and grow beyond the stagnant StarCraft scene...if you don't get that then you sir have literally blown my mind. Sure Koreans play League but their are foreigner tournaments that foreigners win because koreans aren't stomping all the fuck over the earth like they are in StarCraft. That's all I'm saying stop having koreans enter every damn tournament or come up with more tournaments that they won't enter into to give foreigners some fucking motivation to give a damn about this game.
This has absolute nothing to do with why LoL is a more popular Esport. Absolutely zero.
LoL is more popular because it has 100x more people playing it.
|
On April 05 2013 04:16 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:14 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:59 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:55 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:46 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:28 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:21 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:19 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:15 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 03:01 Technique wrote:
[quote]
A coach can't do anything a group of dedicated players can't do for there selfs...
Problem is players are streaming and laddering instead, which really is a time waste...
Artosis and every professional in the industry disagrees with you and the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor that players do better with coaches. A group of passionate, dedicated players will not do as well as the same group with a professional coach. Coach Park is the best example, who lead every team he coached to a winning record and the play offs in Proleague. You also don't understand why NA teams stream, even on TL, who has korean players that stream. They don't do it for the money from streaming, but to provide numbers to their sponsors, who support the teams ability to travel to different events. Ok tell me one thing that coach can do that a dedicated player can't do on his own? It's all about self discipline. Those coaches got nothing to teach... this ain't some old sport like boxing/football etc... Also you think i don't understand they stream for money because i say it's a time waste? I was speaking from a point of view were players try to catch up to the Korean skill level... streaming and long ladder sessions can't be part of that. Mindset, mentality, stress handling, scheduling, offering a neutral observation of your game. Why do professional sport athletes have coaches? Because they do have insight. A coach can't have a proper observation of your game unless he's as high a level as you are... which like i said before, players can help each other with such ''coaching''. The offline tournament stress should be gone after a few tournaments as well. And didn't i mention that you can't compare this to old sports? For obvious reasons. No, you don't need to be as good as a progamer in terms of mechanical skill to actually be good at understanding the game. Some one who is not actively training will at best be able to follow the metagame and recognize the timings from a observer point of view... that's nothing special/useful. You will need to get ahead of the curve and estimate timings/strats with limited information if you want to separate yourself from the other ''top'' players. What kind of understanding can you bring to the table if it comes to the pro scene? Lots of players gain insight from watching the games and understanding the timings, because they don't have the problems you have as a player, which is incomplete information. They can immediately tell during or after a game how the timings will work out, where you could have improved or how to create timings. Only because you are mechanically not fit doesn't mean you cannot create strategy. I'll never be as good as Korean pros, yet I can discuss strategy with my friends among the German / European pros, because I understand strategies and their problems as well as the timing windows, doesn't mean I'm mechanically capable of playing them or executing them. It's an illusion, you only think you can. There are so much variables that new game specific timings occur which you as non pro player won't recognize. Players like mvp are CONSTANTLY re adjusting and re evaluating the situation in game. Not to speak of having to deal with ''new'' strats in tournaments like GSL were people prepare specifically for one opponent. Either way, bored of this discussion. I think I can? I know I can and for what reason? Because the pros do agree with me on my opinion. It doesn't matter if you disagree and are bored with that discussion. It also doesn't matter because you cannot provide anything to counterproof that coaches are actually useful to players. PS: Most coaches were progamers to begin with.
I keep asking him that question, but he keeps ignoring it. He knows he wrong, but just doesn't want to respond to the points that every professional in the industry and the results of numerous pro-leagues disagree with him.
|
On April 05 2013 02:37 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:28 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:13 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:11 Shiori wrote:On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:27 rei wrote:
[quote]
practicing 10 to 14 hours in a well structured team house in the exact same environment as the Koreans will not produce the same skills. Let me give you an example, Idra did that korean team house thing for years, and nony still came along came out of his 5 year retirement and trained for 2 weeks at his house in USA and proceed to roflstomp idra without that korean team house environment.
saying koreans are better because of their educational system, because of their culture, because of their race is so wrong, do you think their education and culture and race allow ppl like mvp, taejja and flash and many others grind through the pain that is carpal tunnel and refuse to let up? and then surgically repair the wrist and keep at it?
Contributing the each individual player's achievement to their race and culture is racism. Ya even if it's a positive praise, you are taking away the glory from the person and giving it to their race, and say their culture produced it. Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea. Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism. "I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts. Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better. So Koreans are genetically superior...? That's nonsense. Talent is a buzzword employed by people who don't have an argument to gloss over the hard work and drive of people more motivated than themselves. Lmao at you if you think MVP used some inaccessible magic to win GSLs. didn't say that, again, what you consider to be talent could be different from what I consider to be talent, tell me what you think talent is in sc2? maybe if you figure out what it is you would agree with me. You heavily implied it. All of the arguments based around racism and genetic advantage center around environment vs nature. By saying that Korean players will beat all foreign players if both are placed in the same environment, you are making the classic argument that all racist have made for years. If you don't want to be accused of being racist, do not make arguments in this fashion. it never even cross my mind for a second until you mention it, the fact that you mention it reflects on what you are thinking, not what I am thinking. if anything you should look at yourself on why you would be looking for racism when nothing is even remotely pointing toward that direction. and my argument is supported by facts, idra had the korean environment and he does not produce any korean result, neighter did huk, nor naniwa, nor sase. and then on the other hand, we have stephano who did not have the korean environment yet he won ton of tournaments vs the koreans. these are Facts. talent is the different between stephano and idra. It matters little what I am thinking, but what your statements say to the general public. If you make an argument that is used by racist, don't be shocked if bring that up. If you aren't aware that the argument was used by racist, you should place the burden on the other side for thinking the argument was racist. You are responsible for conveying your own thoughts and making sure we don't misread them. What is the point of your argument? Stephano is a talented player and does well, we know that. The other players you list are not doing amazing, but so are an equal number of Korean players in Korea. We know that some players are more talented than others, that is given fact. Is your argument that the current set of foreign players are not as talented as Koreans or that all foreign players are not talented as Koreans?
the point i'm trying to make is that "the Korean practice environment is not the key factor on getting results"
I put down 3 evidences for my argument.
1) idra practice in the korean practice environment for years, and got own by f91 who did not practice in korean practice environment.
2) idra got own by nony who came out of retirement for 2 weeks after years of being inactive.
3) stephano did not need the korean practice environment to have good results against the koreans for the past few years.
and finally after these insurmountable evidences, I conclude that the korean practice environment and the korean culture is not why the koreans are winning everything. I contribute all the korean results to their individual hard work, and their talent, I will not take away their glory by generalizing all koreans are good because of they have unfair advantage in better environment.
do you have a bone to pick with this faultless argument?
|
On April 05 2013 04:08 StrifeIsBack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:26 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:25 StrifeIsBack wrote:On April 05 2013 03:18 Type|NarutO wrote:
No one is argueing that we need leagues in NA/EU. People are argueing about Korean participation should be allowed or not.
The thread is technically about why we prefer foreigners over koreans. Not either of the two things brought about in my quote or your quote. Yet in my previous post I go on to talk about why I prefer foreigners over koreans, and why koreans are bad for SC2 and esports as a whole. Bad for Starcraft 2 and eSports as a whole, you cannot be serious. Really you cannot. Truly can be serious. Read my post? League is far superior to SC2 due to the NA scene, and not having Koreans dominate foreigners 24/7 every tournament lol. Don't get me wrong Koreans made SC and BW what it is but I never played back then nor cared for it. The reason I am interested in SC2 is foreigners I don't give two fucks to see flash win every GSL or MLG. problem with that?
I don't have the problem with that, but 120000 people who watched Flash vs Life disagree. It doesn't matter that you dislike Koreans - banning due to origin is racist and should not be tolerated. eSports cannot aim to be taken seriously and do stuff like that. That your personal wish is to see more foreign players is completely acceptable and fine, but blame foreigners for not stepping up if they get dominated, not Koreans for being good.
|
On April 05 2013 04:16 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:11 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On April 05 2013 04:08 StrifeIsBack wrote:On April 05 2013 03:26 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:25 StrifeIsBack wrote:On April 05 2013 03:18 Type|NarutO wrote:
No one is argueing that we need leagues in NA/EU. People are argueing about Korean participation should be allowed or not.
The thread is technically about why we prefer foreigners over koreans. Not either of the two things brought about in my quote or your quote. Yet in my previous post I go on to talk about why I prefer foreigners over koreans, and why koreans are bad for SC2 and esports as a whole. Bad for Starcraft 2 and eSports as a whole, you cannot be serious. Really you cannot. Truly can be serious. Read my post? League is far superior to SC2 due to the NA scene, and not having Koreans dominate foreigners 24/7 every tournament lol. Koreans are the best at LoL though. They might not play every tournament but they're still the best, so basically LoL operates the same system are Blizzard are putting in here. What you said was the Koreans are bad for Sc2, which is retarded. Just like saying Brazilians are bad for football, or black people are bad for Basketball. I see his point, though made poorly. He is saying that Brazil would be bad for football if their team game over to every event and crushed every other team. Having Koreans coming over to kick the crap out of all the foreign players is bad for growth, because there are no new foreign players entering the scene. You can't start everyone in grandmasters, some people need to be in masters or diamond.
I agree with that which is why I suggested the football mode where you have a domestic and international scene running concurrently where you get both the best vs the best and a chance to build your domestic scene, which is what Blizzard are going for here.
What that guy suggested though is that Sc2 would be better as an esport if Korea had never picked up the game. Which is ridiculous.
|
On April 05 2013 03:29 fabiano wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:26 antelope591 wrote:
I dont think having foreigner only tourneys is such a bad idea. My only thing is if ur gonna make it foreigner only then do it all the way. I hate when tourneys go the WCS way and artificially inflate foreigner numbers by giving out unbalanced numbers of slots, making it tough for koreans to attend, etc. It creates situations with having shitty unbalanced games which are bad for everybody. Foreigner only tourneys can be succesful. Just look ag TSL in the last years of BW. They always had great viewership even tho the skill level was obv miles below top koreans. But now picture flash or JD attending one of those TSL's and who would care to watch it anymore except to see how badly foreigners get stomped? This is the type of situations tourneys create by trying to find this artificially created middle ground. Make it all or nothing I don't know how different the SC2 community is from the BW community, but if you had JD or Flash playing in TSL2 for example the viewership would increase ten fold.
It would but strictly for name recognition not for game related reasons. They dont have the same kind of name recognition in sc2 because top koreans at foreign tourneys arent a rare thing
|
On April 05 2013 04:19 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:37 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:28 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:13 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:11 Shiori wrote:On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:
[quote]
Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea.
Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism.
"I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts. Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better. So Koreans are genetically superior...? That's nonsense. Talent is a buzzword employed by people who don't have an argument to gloss over the hard work and drive of people more motivated than themselves. Lmao at you if you think MVP used some inaccessible magic to win GSLs. didn't say that, again, what you consider to be talent could be different from what I consider to be talent, tell me what you think talent is in sc2? maybe if you figure out what it is you would agree with me. You heavily implied it. All of the arguments based around racism and genetic advantage center around environment vs nature. By saying that Korean players will beat all foreign players if both are placed in the same environment, you are making the classic argument that all racist have made for years. If you don't want to be accused of being racist, do not make arguments in this fashion. it never even cross my mind for a second until you mention it, the fact that you mention it reflects on what you are thinking, not what I am thinking. if anything you should look at yourself on why you would be looking for racism when nothing is even remotely pointing toward that direction. and my argument is supported by facts, idra had the korean environment and he does not produce any korean result, neighter did huk, nor naniwa, nor sase. and then on the other hand, we have stephano who did not have the korean environment yet he won ton of tournaments vs the koreans. these are Facts. talent is the different between stephano and idra. It matters little what I am thinking, but what your statements say to the general public. If you make an argument that is used by racist, don't be shocked if bring that up. If you aren't aware that the argument was used by racist, you should place the burden on the other side for thinking the argument was racist. You are responsible for conveying your own thoughts and making sure we don't misread them. What is the point of your argument? Stephano is a talented player and does well, we know that. The other players you list are not doing amazing, but so are an equal number of Korean players in Korea. We know that some players are more talented than others, that is given fact. Is your argument that the current set of foreign players are not as talented as Koreans or that all foreign players are not talented as Koreans? the point i'm trying to make is that "the Korean practice environment is not the key factor on getting results" I put down 3 evidences for my argument. 1) idra practice in the korean practice environment for years, and got own by f91 who did not practice in korean practice environment. 2) idra got own by nony who came out of retirement for 2 weeks after years of being inactive. 3) stephano did not need the korean practice environment to have good results against the koreans for the past few years. and finally after these insurmountable evidences, I conclude that the korean practice environment and the korean culture is not why the koreans are winning everything. I contribute all the korean results to their individual hard work, and their talent, I will not take away their glory by generalizing all koreans are good because of they have unfair advantage in better environment. do you have a bone to pick with this faultless argument?
Yes we do. Its you picking out a minorty. Besides that F91 and the chinese progaming community was very similar to the Korean community so you would have to count him out already. As I stated before, you can name exactly one individual who got better in Korea, yet didn't dominate the foreign scene. I can name ~20 Koreans who are all not as known as big names in NA / EU and still are better.
|
your argments are all invalid.
![[image loading]](http://agbeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/puppies.jpg)
User was warned for this post
|
On April 05 2013 04:19 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:37 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:28 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:13 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:11 Shiori wrote:On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:
[quote]
Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea.
Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism.
"I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts. Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better. So Koreans are genetically superior...? That's nonsense. Talent is a buzzword employed by people who don't have an argument to gloss over the hard work and drive of people more motivated than themselves. Lmao at you if you think MVP used some inaccessible magic to win GSLs. didn't say that, again, what you consider to be talent could be different from what I consider to be talent, tell me what you think talent is in sc2? maybe if you figure out what it is you would agree with me. You heavily implied it. All of the arguments based around racism and genetic advantage center around environment vs nature. By saying that Korean players will beat all foreign players if both are placed in the same environment, you are making the classic argument that all racist have made for years. If you don't want to be accused of being racist, do not make arguments in this fashion. it never even cross my mind for a second until you mention it, the fact that you mention it reflects on what you are thinking, not what I am thinking. if anything you should look at yourself on why you would be looking for racism when nothing is even remotely pointing toward that direction. and my argument is supported by facts, idra had the korean environment and he does not produce any korean result, neighter did huk, nor naniwa, nor sase. and then on the other hand, we have stephano who did not have the korean environment yet he won ton of tournaments vs the koreans. these are Facts. talent is the different between stephano and idra. It matters little what I am thinking, but what your statements say to the general public. If you make an argument that is used by racist, don't be shocked if bring that up. If you aren't aware that the argument was used by racist, you should place the burden on the other side for thinking the argument was racist. You are responsible for conveying your own thoughts and making sure we don't misread them. What is the point of your argument? Stephano is a talented player and does well, we know that. The other players you list are not doing amazing, but so are an equal number of Korean players in Korea. We know that some players are more talented than others, that is given fact. Is your argument that the current set of foreign players are not as talented as Koreans or that all foreign players are not talented as Koreans? the point i'm trying to make is that "the Korean practice environment is not the key factor on getting results" I put down 3 evidences for my argument. 1) idra practice in the korean practice environment for years, and got own by f91 who did not practice in korean practice environment. 2) idra got own by nony who came out of retirement for 2 weeks after years of being inactive. 3) stephano did not need the korean practice environment to have good results against the koreans for the past few years. and finally after these insurmountable evidences, I conclude that the korean practice environment and the korean culture is not why the koreans are winning everything. I contribute all the korean results to their individual hard work, and their talent, I will not take away their glory by generalizing all koreans are good because of they have unfair advantage in better environment. do you have a bone to pick with this faultless argument?
My biggest bone of contention is that it's self evidently stupid.
|
Tbh, the mass Zerg domination did hurt the scene much more than "Koreans beating up foreigners" and that was definitely Blizzard's fault for not reacting quickly enough. Foreigners could actually beat good Korean players back then, providing they played Zerg and the Korean didn't.
I wasn't watching big events' finals anymore at the end of WoL, because it was invariably ZvZ, not because of KRvsKR.
|
On April 05 2013 04:24 ZenithM wrote:
Tbh, the mass Zerg domination did hurt the scene much more than "Koreans beating up foreigners" and that was definitely Blizzard's fault for not reacting quickly enough. Foreigners could actually beat good Korean players back then, providing they played Zerg and the Korean didn't.
I wasn't watching big events' finals anymore at the end of WoL, because it was invariably ZvZ, not because of KRvsKR.
So true. Infestor/BL and GomTvT were the worst things to happen to Sc2 as an esport in WOL.
|
On April 05 2013 04:19 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:37 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:28 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:13 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:11 Shiori wrote:On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:
[quote]
Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea.
Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism.
"I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts. Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better. So Koreans are genetically superior...? That's nonsense. Talent is a buzzword employed by people who don't have an argument to gloss over the hard work and drive of people more motivated than themselves. Lmao at you if you think MVP used some inaccessible magic to win GSLs. didn't say that, again, what you consider to be talent could be different from what I consider to be talent, tell me what you think talent is in sc2? maybe if you figure out what it is you would agree with me. You heavily implied it. All of the arguments based around racism and genetic advantage center around environment vs nature. By saying that Korean players will beat all foreign players if both are placed in the same environment, you are making the classic argument that all racist have made for years. If you don't want to be accused of being racist, do not make arguments in this fashion. it never even cross my mind for a second until you mention it, the fact that you mention it reflects on what you are thinking, not what I am thinking. if anything you should look at yourself on why you would be looking for racism when nothing is even remotely pointing toward that direction. and my argument is supported by facts, idra had the korean environment and he does not produce any korean result, neighter did huk, nor naniwa, nor sase. and then on the other hand, we have stephano who did not have the korean environment yet he won ton of tournaments vs the koreans. these are Facts. talent is the different between stephano and idra. It matters little what I am thinking, but what your statements say to the general public. If you make an argument that is used by racist, don't be shocked if bring that up. If you aren't aware that the argument was used by racist, you should place the burden on the other side for thinking the argument was racist. You are responsible for conveying your own thoughts and making sure we don't misread them. What is the point of your argument? Stephano is a talented player and does well, we know that. The other players you list are not doing amazing, but so are an equal number of Korean players in Korea. We know that some players are more talented than others, that is given fact. Is your argument that the current set of foreign players are not as talented as Koreans or that all foreign players are not talented as Koreans? the point i'm trying to make is that "the Korean practice environment is not the key factor on getting results" I put down 3 evidences for my argument. 1) idra practice in the korean practice environment for years, and got own by f91 who did not practice in korean practice environment. 2) idra got own by nony who came out of retirement for 2 weeks after years of being inactive. 3) stephano did not need the korean practice environment to have good results against the koreans for the past few years. and finally after these insurmountable evidences, I conclude that the korean practice environment and the korean culture is not why the koreans are winning everything. I contribute all the korean results to their individual hard work, and their talent, I will not take away their glory by generalizing all koreans are good because of they have unfair advantage in better environment. do you have a bone to pick with this faultless argument?
I think it is overly simplistic, relies on a small sample set and cherry picks its arguments from SC2 and BW. It ignores regional differences, like that all progaming in Korea is based in a single city and their highest level teams are funded by the most largest companies in all of Korea.
If your theory were correct, Koreans would win all sports they took place in and that is not the case. I would argue they have a better system in place for finding the best players and then providing them with the support they need to become the best. This system is supported and funded by the largest companies in the country and also receives government support.
The simple fact is that if you take this argument outside of SC2, is collapse under the evidence that Korean do not win everything. Koreans don't have more talented, harder working players, they are just better at finding them.
|
On April 05 2013 04:18 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:16 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 04:14 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:59 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:55 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:46 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:28 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:21 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:19 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:15 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Artosis and every professional in the industry disagrees with you and the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor that players do better with coaches. A group of passionate, dedicated players will not do as well as the same group with a professional coach. Coach Park is the best example, who lead every team he coached to a winning record and the play offs in Proleague.
You also don't understand why NA teams stream, even on TL, who has korean players that stream. They don't do it for the money from streaming, but to provide numbers to their sponsors, who support the teams ability to travel to different events.
Ok tell me one thing that coach can do that a dedicated player can't do on his own? It's all about self discipline. Those coaches got nothing to teach... this ain't some old sport like boxing/football etc... Also you think i don't understand they stream for money because i say it's a time waste? I was speaking from a point of view were players try to catch up to the Korean skill level... streaming and long ladder sessions can't be part of that. Mindset, mentality, stress handling, scheduling, offering a neutral observation of your game. Why do professional sport athletes have coaches? Because they do have insight. A coach can't have a proper observation of your game unless he's as high a level as you are... which like i said before, players can help each other with such ''coaching''. The offline tournament stress should be gone after a few tournaments as well. And didn't i mention that you can't compare this to old sports? For obvious reasons. No, you don't need to be as good as a progamer in terms of mechanical skill to actually be good at understanding the game. Some one who is not actively training will at best be able to follow the metagame and recognize the timings from a observer point of view... that's nothing special/useful. You will need to get ahead of the curve and estimate timings/strats with limited information if you want to separate yourself from the other ''top'' players. What kind of understanding can you bring to the table if it comes to the pro scene? Lots of players gain insight from watching the games and understanding the timings, because they don't have the problems you have as a player, which is incomplete information. They can immediately tell during or after a game how the timings will work out, where you could have improved or how to create timings. Only because you are mechanically not fit doesn't mean you cannot create strategy. I'll never be as good as Korean pros, yet I can discuss strategy with my friends among the German / European pros, because I understand strategies and their problems as well as the timing windows, doesn't mean I'm mechanically capable of playing them or executing them. It's an illusion, you only think you can. There are so much variables that new game specific timings occur which you as non pro player won't recognize. Players like mvp are CONSTANTLY re adjusting and re evaluating the situation in game. Not to speak of having to deal with ''new'' strats in tournaments like GSL were people prepare specifically for one opponent. Either way, bored of this discussion. I think I can? I know I can and for what reason? Because the pros do agree with me on my opinion. It doesn't matter if you disagree and are bored with that discussion. It also doesn't matter because you cannot provide anything to counterproof that coaches are actually useful to players. PS: Most coaches were progamers to begin with. I keep asking him that question, but he keeps ignoring it. He knows he wrong, but just doesn't want to respond to the points that every professional in the industry and the results of numerous pro-leagues disagree with him.
Neither of you brought forward any proper argument against what i was saying...
I said a coach is not needed if you got self discipline and help/coach each other...
MVP and Nestea commenting on each other their game and point out holes or asking what they have problems against etc is so much more valuable than some guy with a tight schedule...
And this of course also works on a lower level with European/American pros... infact i think many European players are already like that... and it shows...
|
On April 05 2013 04:14 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:07 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:23 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 02:20 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:12 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:27 rei wrote:
[quote]
practicing 10 to 14 hours in a well structured team house in the exact same environment as the Koreans will not produce the same skills. Let me give you an example, Idra did that korean team house thing for years, and nony still came along came out of his 5 year retirement and trained for 2 weeks at his house in USA and proceed to roflstomp idra without that korean team house environment.
saying koreans are better because of their educational system, because of their culture, because of their race is so wrong, do you think their education and culture and race allow ppl like mvp, taejja and flash and many others grind through the pain that is carpal tunnel and refuse to let up? and then surgically repair the wrist and keep at it?
Contributing the each individual player's achievement to their race and culture is racism. Ya even if it's a positive praise, you are taking away the glory from the person and giving it to their race, and say their culture produced it. Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea. Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism. "I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts. Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better. Your proof is two boX? He lost to F91 and NonY. F91 being one of the very best Zergs at that time also taking games off of NaDa and NonY being an execptional player as well winning close by 3-2 ... not even taking the games into account. I can still remember his cancelled cc into gg. Your arguments are not just weak, but barely there. ya, after ad hominem, you decide to use strawman fallacy, labeling my evidence as weak does not take away the fact these evidence supports my argument, korean practice environment, and hard working that was idra did not respect the game, did not respect his opponent, did not have the skill to beat 2 people who did not practice nearly as hard as he did nor did those 2 person grind it out in korea as he did. tell me what do you think talent is in the game of sc2? Were you involved into Starcraft Broodwar? Because it sure does seem like you were not. NonY was an expectional player who did practice on iccup against mostly Koreans and tried to smooth out his builds as much as possible. You could always tell by the build order and placement who was playing. F91 was one of the chinese pros that were very similar to the Korean scene actually. F91, Legend ... if I remember correctly they even went to Korea for a short period of time and they sure did practice just as much as the Koreans. Also NonY was actually one of the very few persons IdrA did respect, resulting in him gg'ing out of every game, but it seems like you will not back off your point even if proven wrong. you proved what wrong? I have both nony and Idra in my team, we ended up needing to kick idra out for smurfing in a clan match, F91 was not in korea, and he wasn't consider to be on part with any big name korean. the whole reason i bought those these 2 boX is to support my argument that korean practice environment is not the key factor to produce results. You have said nothing to disprove that argument. By saying F91 and nony was respectable argument does not take away the fact that they both beat idra without using the korean practice environment. This is evidence for "practice environment is not the key factor to better result" If you want to disprove me, you would have to put down your own evidences such as a foreigner being in korean practice environment have produce consistent results against the koreans. (hell idra wasn't even fighting koreans for those 2 best of X and he still got his ass kicked) and then I gave you even more evidence about stephano did not need the korean practice environment to produce consistent results against the koreans. against this also support my argument that which is " practice environment is not the key factor to better result , i am not saying it would not help, but without talent no amount of practice can make you on part with the truly talented. You make tons of fallacies and I even point it out to you, yet you still say you proven me wrong? Statistic minority doesn't matter in overall statistics. Thats just how it is. Because IdrA doesn't put up amazing results (note: he did put up results) is not reflection of Korean training. Besides that Korean practice and especially Koreans do benefit from not having a language barrier. F91 and the chinese training was - in fact - really similar to Korean practice . Also if you cannot beat an argument of me - you simply ignore it. Thats a good way to win an argument against someone who will fall for it. I'll wait for you to actually counter my argument with facts. I did mention, that you have the proof of superior Korean practice all the time due to Koreans domenating non Koreans. You say its talent, I ask you; is every Korean talented? I ask you to go and see for example rets interview about Korea and how he didn't like it, yet it did improve his play a ton. Even if you argue that Korean training is not key, you cannot deny (at least) the fact that its superior and does - in fact - deliver results.
not sure what you are talking about when you said I ignored you, there are too many ppl i replied to i might have not notice it, i am not denying the korean training is superior and it would deliver results. because all the koreans achievement are clear evidence for that
but it still has nothing to do with my argument. What i am saying is that the korean training will not help if you don't process the talent to get those results in the first place, there are tons of koreans who practice in the korean training and sucks ass and they get weed out and you never heard of them. Have you consider that fact? Do you know about this old tournament Kespa used to run to spot new prospects? it's call the courage tournament, and you need to win it to get a pro licence, and there are ton of koreans attending that every time, and 99% of them fail and fail and fail, only 1 succeed. There were ton of 500apm monsters that are faster than nada back in the days, but they can't even get out of courage. Idra didn't win a courage tournament, ret didn't win it, even nony as close as he came within one game of winning it on his first try, he still didn't win it.
I hope you can understand what i'm trying to tell you, whatever you are seeing right at in the kroean scene, they are the best of the best in the pool that include many many other less talented koreans. all ones who did not have talents already got weeded out. If you swap all the foreigners of now days with all the kespa players and have them train in the kespa team while the kespa players stay home and practice for themselves online, the kespa players would still dominate.
|
On April 05 2013 04:30 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:18 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:16 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 04:14 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:59 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:55 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:46 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:28 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:21 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:19 Technique wrote:
[quote]
Ok tell me one thing that coach can do that a dedicated player can't do on his own?
It's all about self discipline.
Those coaches got nothing to teach... this ain't some old sport like boxing/football etc...
Also you think i don't understand they stream for money because i say it's a time waste? I was speaking from a point of view were players try to catch up to the Korean skill level... streaming and long ladder sessions can't be part of that. Mindset, mentality, stress handling, scheduling, offering a neutral observation of your game. Why do professional sport athletes have coaches? Because they do have insight. A coach can't have a proper observation of your game unless he's as high a level as you are... which like i said before, players can help each other with such ''coaching''. The offline tournament stress should be gone after a few tournaments as well. And didn't i mention that you can't compare this to old sports? For obvious reasons. No, you don't need to be as good as a progamer in terms of mechanical skill to actually be good at understanding the game. Some one who is not actively training will at best be able to follow the metagame and recognize the timings from a observer point of view... that's nothing special/useful. You will need to get ahead of the curve and estimate timings/strats with limited information if you want to separate yourself from the other ''top'' players. What kind of understanding can you bring to the table if it comes to the pro scene? Lots of players gain insight from watching the games and understanding the timings, because they don't have the problems you have as a player, which is incomplete information. They can immediately tell during or after a game how the timings will work out, where you could have improved or how to create timings. Only because you are mechanically not fit doesn't mean you cannot create strategy. I'll never be as good as Korean pros, yet I can discuss strategy with my friends among the German / European pros, because I understand strategies and their problems as well as the timing windows, doesn't mean I'm mechanically capable of playing them or executing them. It's an illusion, you only think you can. There are so much variables that new game specific timings occur which you as non pro player won't recognize. Players like mvp are CONSTANTLY re adjusting and re evaluating the situation in game. Not to speak of having to deal with ''new'' strats in tournaments like GSL were people prepare specifically for one opponent. Either way, bored of this discussion. I think I can? I know I can and for what reason? Because the pros do agree with me on my opinion. It doesn't matter if you disagree and are bored with that discussion. It also doesn't matter because you cannot provide anything to counterproof that coaches are actually useful to players. PS: Most coaches were progamers to begin with. I keep asking him that question, but he keeps ignoring it. He knows he wrong, but just doesn't want to respond to the points that every professional in the industry and the results of numerous pro-leagues disagree with him. Neither of you brought forward any proper argument against what i was saying... I said a coach is not needed if you got self discipline and help/coach each other... MVP and Nestea commenting on each other their game and point out holes or asking what they have problems against etc is so much more valuable than some guy with a tight schedule... And this of course also works on a lower level with European/American pros... infact i think many European players are already like that... and it shows...
So why does Flash have a coach? Or Life? Why did Team Liquid hire one? Why do all the pro-league teams have coaches? Are you saying these players are doing it wrong?
We don't need to prove anything. The entire industry uses coaches and you are saying they are bad. Prove why.
|
On April 05 2013 04:20 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:16 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:11 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On April 05 2013 04:08 StrifeIsBack wrote:On April 05 2013 03:26 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:25 StrifeIsBack wrote:On April 05 2013 03:18 Type|NarutO wrote:
No one is argueing that we need leagues in NA/EU. People are argueing about Korean participation should be allowed or not.
The thread is technically about why we prefer foreigners over koreans. Not either of the two things brought about in my quote or your quote. Yet in my previous post I go on to talk about why I prefer foreigners over koreans, and why koreans are bad for SC2 and esports as a whole. Bad for Starcraft 2 and eSports as a whole, you cannot be serious. Really you cannot. Truly can be serious. Read my post? League is far superior to SC2 due to the NA scene, and not having Koreans dominate foreigners 24/7 every tournament lol. Koreans are the best at LoL though. They might not play every tournament but they're still the best, so basically LoL operates the same system are Blizzard are putting in here. What you said was the Koreans are bad for Sc2, which is retarded. Just like saying Brazilians are bad for football, or black people are bad for Basketball. I see his point, though made poorly. He is saying that Brazil would be bad for football if their team game over to every event and crushed every other team. Having Koreans coming over to kick the crap out of all the foreign players is bad for growth, because there are no new foreign players entering the scene. You can't start everyone in grandmasters, some people need to be in masters or diamond. I agree with that which is why I suggested the football mode where you have a domestic and international scene running concurrently where you get both the best vs the best and a chance to build your domestic scene, which is what Blizzard are going for here. What that guy suggested though is that Sc2 would be better as an esport if Korea had never picked up the game. Which is ridiculous.
Never did I say that it would be great if Korea never picked up the game. For fucks sake read my post before you comment
Also, you guys make it out that it would be so easy for foreigners to sit down in a team house wherever the team is located, and practice for 16 hours a day. I ask you, and beg you to provide me proof that you could do that without a salary. Which is exactly why the growth of foreign esports needs to happen so that that can happen like koreans have it. To be able to sit for 12-16 hours a day and play StarCraft with your team, and coach, and not worry about having to pay for your rent or internet...
Using the "racist" theory for region locking tournaments is also stupid. That's not racist in any way shape or form, and unfortunately if koreans are just going to march over the entire planet, and dominate the sport to the point that no one other than koreans are playing it's what will end up happening.
|
i respect koreans' talent and love to watch the magic that is their gameplay. however, i dont associate with them personally. i associate with foreigners--ironically, even foreigners who aren't similar to me. thus, i like to watch foreigners play. moreover, i love to root for the underdog, which is the foreigners, and when a foreigner goes on a winning streak against koreans it is exciting. when they get roflstomped it is not exciting. thus, i would not give any handicaps to foreigners. just give them an equal playing field (i.e., chance to play).
|
On April 05 2013 04:30 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:18 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:16 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 04:14 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:59 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:55 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:46 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:28 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:21 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:19 Technique wrote:
[quote]
Ok tell me one thing that coach can do that a dedicated player can't do on his own?
It's all about self discipline.
Those coaches got nothing to teach... this ain't some old sport like boxing/football etc...
Also you think i don't understand they stream for money because i say it's a time waste? I was speaking from a point of view were players try to catch up to the Korean skill level... streaming and long ladder sessions can't be part of that. Mindset, mentality, stress handling, scheduling, offering a neutral observation of your game. Why do professional sport athletes have coaches? Because they do have insight. A coach can't have a proper observation of your game unless he's as high a level as you are... which like i said before, players can help each other with such ''coaching''. The offline tournament stress should be gone after a few tournaments as well. And didn't i mention that you can't compare this to old sports? For obvious reasons. No, you don't need to be as good as a progamer in terms of mechanical skill to actually be good at understanding the game. Some one who is not actively training will at best be able to follow the metagame and recognize the timings from a observer point of view... that's nothing special/useful. You will need to get ahead of the curve and estimate timings/strats with limited information if you want to separate yourself from the other ''top'' players. What kind of understanding can you bring to the table if it comes to the pro scene? Lots of players gain insight from watching the games and understanding the timings, because they don't have the problems you have as a player, which is incomplete information. They can immediately tell during or after a game how the timings will work out, where you could have improved or how to create timings. Only because you are mechanically not fit doesn't mean you cannot create strategy. I'll never be as good as Korean pros, yet I can discuss strategy with my friends among the German / European pros, because I understand strategies and their problems as well as the timing windows, doesn't mean I'm mechanically capable of playing them or executing them. It's an illusion, you only think you can. There are so much variables that new game specific timings occur which you as non pro player won't recognize. Players like mvp are CONSTANTLY re adjusting and re evaluating the situation in game. Not to speak of having to deal with ''new'' strats in tournaments like GSL were people prepare specifically for one opponent. Either way, bored of this discussion. I think I can? I know I can and for what reason? Because the pros do agree with me on my opinion. It doesn't matter if you disagree and are bored with that discussion. It also doesn't matter because you cannot provide anything to counterproof that coaches are actually useful to players. PS: Most coaches were progamers to begin with. I keep asking him that question, but he keeps ignoring it. He knows he wrong, but just doesn't want to respond to the points that every professional in the industry and the results of numerous pro-leagues disagree with him. Neither of you brought forward any proper argument against what i was saying... I said a coach is not needed if you got self discipline and help/coach each other... MVP and Nestea commenting on each other their game and point out holes or asking what they have problems against etc is so much more valuable than some guy with a tight schedule... And this of course also works on a lower level with European/American pros... infact i think many European players are already like that... and it shows...
I must admit, in my 10 years on tl.net, I`ve never seen more stupid person than you.
User was warned for this post
|
On April 05 2013 04:33 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:30 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 04:18 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:16 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 04:14 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:59 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:55 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:46 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:28 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:21 Type|NarutO wrote:
[quote]
Mindset, mentality, stress handling, scheduling, offering a neutral observation of your game. Why do professional sport athletes have coaches? Because they do have insight.
A coach can't have a proper observation of your game unless he's as high a level as you are... which like i said before, players can help each other with such ''coaching''. The offline tournament stress should be gone after a few tournaments as well. And didn't i mention that you can't compare this to old sports? For obvious reasons. No, you don't need to be as good as a progamer in terms of mechanical skill to actually be good at understanding the game. Some one who is not actively training will at best be able to follow the metagame and recognize the timings from a observer point of view... that's nothing special/useful. You will need to get ahead of the curve and estimate timings/strats with limited information if you want to separate yourself from the other ''top'' players. What kind of understanding can you bring to the table if it comes to the pro scene? Lots of players gain insight from watching the games and understanding the timings, because they don't have the problems you have as a player, which is incomplete information. They can immediately tell during or after a game how the timings will work out, where you could have improved or how to create timings. Only because you are mechanically not fit doesn't mean you cannot create strategy. I'll never be as good as Korean pros, yet I can discuss strategy with my friends among the German / European pros, because I understand strategies and their problems as well as the timing windows, doesn't mean I'm mechanically capable of playing them or executing them. It's an illusion, you only think you can. There are so much variables that new game specific timings occur which you as non pro player won't recognize. Players like mvp are CONSTANTLY re adjusting and re evaluating the situation in game. Not to speak of having to deal with ''new'' strats in tournaments like GSL were people prepare specifically for one opponent. Either way, bored of this discussion. I think I can? I know I can and for what reason? Because the pros do agree with me on my opinion. It doesn't matter if you disagree and are bored with that discussion. It also doesn't matter because you cannot provide anything to counterproof that coaches are actually useful to players. PS: Most coaches were progamers to begin with. I keep asking him that question, but he keeps ignoring it. He knows he wrong, but just doesn't want to respond to the points that every professional in the industry and the results of numerous pro-leagues disagree with him. Neither of you brought forward any proper argument against what i was saying... I said a coach is not needed if you got self discipline and help/coach each other... MVP and Nestea commenting on each other their game and point out holes or asking what they have problems against etc is so much more valuable than some guy with a tight schedule... And this of course also works on a lower level with European/American pros... infact i think many European players are already like that... and it shows... So why does Flash have a coach? Or Life? Why did Team Liquid hire one? Why do all the pro-league teams have coaches? Are you saying these players are doing it wrong? We don't need to prove anything. The entire industry uses coaches and you are saying they are bad. Prove why.
I don't say they are bad... i say they are not needed and not having one should not be used as an excuse.
As for the actual training... yes actual players that want to make each other better like the MVP/Nestea example i gave (could of used Flash with whoever if it makes you happy?) is indeed were it's at... and not with some ''professional coach''.
But try to give an actual argument other than so and so has a coach?
|
On April 05 2013 04:32 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:14 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 04:07 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:23 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 02:20 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:12 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:
[quote]
Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea.
Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism.
"I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts. Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better. Your proof is two boX? He lost to F91 and NonY. F91 being one of the very best Zergs at that time also taking games off of NaDa and NonY being an execptional player as well winning close by 3-2 ... not even taking the games into account. I can still remember his cancelled cc into gg. Your arguments are not just weak, but barely there. ya, after ad hominem, you decide to use strawman fallacy, labeling my evidence as weak does not take away the fact these evidence supports my argument, korean practice environment, and hard working that was idra did not respect the game, did not respect his opponent, did not have the skill to beat 2 people who did not practice nearly as hard as he did nor did those 2 person grind it out in korea as he did. tell me what do you think talent is in the game of sc2? Were you involved into Starcraft Broodwar? Because it sure does seem like you were not. NonY was an expectional player who did practice on iccup against mostly Koreans and tried to smooth out his builds as much as possible. You could always tell by the build order and placement who was playing. F91 was one of the chinese pros that were very similar to the Korean scene actually. F91, Legend ... if I remember correctly they even went to Korea for a short period of time and they sure did practice just as much as the Koreans. Also NonY was actually one of the very few persons IdrA did respect, resulting in him gg'ing out of every game, but it seems like you will not back off your point even if proven wrong. you proved what wrong? I have both nony and Idra in my team, we ended up needing to kick idra out for smurfing in a clan match, F91 was not in korea, and he wasn't consider to be on part with any big name korean. the whole reason i bought those these 2 boX is to support my argument that korean practice environment is not the key factor to produce results. You have said nothing to disprove that argument. By saying F91 and nony was respectable argument does not take away the fact that they both beat idra without using the korean practice environment. This is evidence for "practice environment is not the key factor to better result" If you want to disprove me, you would have to put down your own evidences such as a foreigner being in korean practice environment have produce consistent results against the koreans. (hell idra wasn't even fighting koreans for those 2 best of X and he still got his ass kicked) and then I gave you even more evidence about stephano did not need the korean practice environment to produce consistent results against the koreans. against this also support my argument that which is " practice environment is not the key factor to better result , i am not saying it would not help, but without talent no amount of practice can make you on part with the truly talented. You make tons of fallacies and I even point it out to you, yet you still say you proven me wrong? Statistic minority doesn't matter in overall statistics. Thats just how it is. Because IdrA doesn't put up amazing results (note: he did put up results) is not reflection of Korean training. Besides that Korean practice and especially Koreans do benefit from not having a language barrier. F91 and the chinese training was - in fact - really similar to Korean practice . Also if you cannot beat an argument of me - you simply ignore it. Thats a good way to win an argument against someone who will fall for it. I'll wait for you to actually counter my argument with facts. I did mention, that you have the proof of superior Korean practice all the time due to Koreans domenating non Koreans. You say its talent, I ask you; is every Korean talented? I ask you to go and see for example rets interview about Korea and how he didn't like it, yet it did improve his play a ton. Even if you argue that Korean training is not key, you cannot deny (at least) the fact that its superior and does - in fact - deliver results. not sure what you are talking about when you said I ignored you, there are too many ppl i replied to i might have not notice it, i am not denying the korean training is superior and it would deliver results. because all the koreans achievement are clear evidence for that but it still has nothing to do with my argument. What i am saying is that the korean training will not help if you don't process the talent to get those results in the first place, there are tons of koreans who practice in the korean training and sucks ass and they get weed out and you never heard of them. Have you consider that fact? Do you know about this old tournament Kespa used to run to spot new prospects? it's call the courage tournament, and you need to win it to get a pro licence, and there are ton of koreans attending that every time, and 99% of them fail and fail and fail, only 1 succeed. There were ton of 500apm monsters that are faster than nada back in the days, but they can't even get out of courage. Idra didn't win a courage tournament, ret didn't win it, even nony as close as he came within one game of winning it on his first try, he still didn't win it. I hope you can understand what i'm trying to tell you, whatever you are seeing right at in the kroean scene, they are the best of the best in the pool that include many many other less talented koreans. all ones who did not have talents already got weeded out. If you swap all the foreigners of now days with all the kespa players and have them train in the kespa team while the kespa players stay home and practice for themselves online, the kespa players would still dominate.
Thats the first post of you I can agree with and thats the only point I never argued. You made it sound like Koreans are naturally talented / better than foreigners whereas we already said that they are just good at
1) finding players
2) raising players
We all know that you don't enter a Korean progaming house and magically leave it as Starcraft god, but their training and superior environment allows for every player to improve. Ofcourse not everyone can be a Flash or a Life, ofcourse there are people more capable of understand and / or playing the game, but that doesn't mean that what we stated (Korean training is superior and does improve you over time in a lot higher fashion than any other training does) is wrong. It also is completely correct, that to reach the highest level of competition you NEED to play in Korea. We all saw Stephano taking games off of Koreans, but that was first of all a small sample size and secondly he was not always facing the best of the best. Ofcourse he took down Code - S calibers and some of the best players, but thats one exceptional player from thousands, so this should not be taken into consideration if you speak of statistically relevant things.
Yes I do know about courage, but you didn't have to win it to get your progamer licence ;-)! Flash for example didn't win his courage in the first place, still got his licence^^.
|
On April 05 2013 04:27 Plansix wrote:
I would argue they have a better system in place for finding the best players and then providing them with the support they need to become the best. This system is supported and funded by the largest companies in the country and also receives government support.
this is what I agree on, they have a better system in place for them to find better talents! the foreigners don't. never mind the support and the funding, if they can't find the best talents they can find in the first place they would not be dominating like this.
Here is the history behind the talent searching in kespa, they had this one thing call courage tournament in bw days, all the current pros had to fought through this courage tournament to get a pro license. It's just as brutal as GSL code A qualifier, when a player wins courage, they get pick up by a team. and all those who doesn't win time after time, they get faded out and weeded out. What you see in kespa are the best of the best out of thousands of koreans who thinks they can make it to the big stage. That's the talents the rest of the world can not match, unless you are stephano.
|
On April 05 2013 04:34 StrifeIsBack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:20 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On April 05 2013 04:16 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:11 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On April 05 2013 04:08 StrifeIsBack wrote:On April 05 2013 03:26 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:25 StrifeIsBack wrote:On April 05 2013 03:18 Type|NarutO wrote:
No one is argueing that we need leagues in NA/EU. People are argueing about Korean participation should be allowed or not.
The thread is technically about why we prefer foreigners over koreans. Not either of the two things brought about in my quote or your quote. Yet in my previous post I go on to talk about why I prefer foreigners over koreans, and why koreans are bad for SC2 and esports as a whole. Bad for Starcraft 2 and eSports as a whole, you cannot be serious. Really you cannot. Truly can be serious. Read my post? League is far superior to SC2 due to the NA scene, and not having Koreans dominate foreigners 24/7 every tournament lol. Koreans are the best at LoL though. They might not play every tournament but they're still the best, so basically LoL operates the same system are Blizzard are putting in here. What you said was the Koreans are bad for Sc2, which is retarded. Just like saying Brazilians are bad for football, or black people are bad for Basketball. I see his point, though made poorly. He is saying that Brazil would be bad for football if their team game over to every event and crushed every other team. Having Koreans coming over to kick the crap out of all the foreign players is bad for growth, because there are no new foreign players entering the scene. You can't start everyone in grandmasters, some people need to be in masters or diamond. I agree with that which is why I suggested the football mode where you have a domestic and international scene running concurrently where you get both the best vs the best and a chance to build your domestic scene, which is what Blizzard are going for here. What that guy suggested though is that Sc2 would be better as an esport if Korea had never picked up the game. Which is ridiculous. Never did I say that it would be great if Korea never picked up the game. For fucks sake read my post before you comment Also, you guys make it out that it would be so easy for foreigners to sit down in a team house wherever the team is located, and practice for 16 hours a day. I ask you, and beg you to provide me proof that you could do that without a salary. Which is exactly why the growth of foreign esports needs to happen so that that can happen like koreans have it. To be able to sit for 12-16 hours a day and play StarCraft with your team, and coach, and not worry about having to pay for your rent or internet... Using the "racist" theory for region locking tournaments is also stupid. That's not racist in any way shape or form, and unfortunately if koreans are just going to march over the entire planet, and dominate the sport to the point that no one other than koreans are playing it's what will end up happening.
Sallary is not my concern, if you can provide me shelter and food, I'll gladly play for 16 hours a day and improve.
|
On April 05 2013 04:39 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:27 Plansix wrote:
I would argue they have a better system in place for finding the best players and then providing them with the support they need to become the best. This system is supported and funded by the largest companies in the country and also receives government support.
this is what I agree on, they have a better system in place for them to find better talents! the foreigners don't. never mind the support and the funding, if they can't find the best talents they can find in the first place they would not be dominating like this. Here is the history behind the talent searching in kespa, they had this one thing call courage tournament in bw days, all the current pros had to fought through this courage tournament to get a pro license. It's just as brutal as GSL code A qualifier, when a player wins courage, they get pick up by a team. and all those who doesn't win time after time, they get faded out and weeded out. What you see in kespa are the best of the best out of thousands of koreans who thinks they can make it to the big stage. That's the talents the rest of the world can not match, unless you are stephano.
Your statement generally is right, but not completely true. By.Snow for example didn't win courage, but has a progamer licence, because teams can give it out. IdrA got a progamer licence as well without winning courage. Also Draco. Besides that, there was a foreigner (Assem) who won a courage tournament. Also Legionnaire
|
@naruto
and how many foreigner teams do you see that happening? O.o very very few foreign teams have team houses, and the sort setup. The only NA team that has a team house setup is EG and they are obviously the best NA team.
That's my point we need to grow the foreign scene so that we can attain the things that the korean scene has so that one day the foreign scene can be/will be on par with that of the koreans, and for once foreigners can dominate.
Even more so the up and coming players don't have teams, and can't sustain themselves to playing SC2 for as long as the pros do. Without up and coming players there is no youth to foster, and raise, and educate. Hence no new names.
Why do you think it's so hard for amateur foreign teams to be established, and noticed? No sponsors. Nothing to gain for the player. That's why esports in general is just so damn hard to break into, and continue playing at a pace, and level that is needed for tournament play because we have no infastructure like all of the korean teamhouses.
LG sponsors IM. Samsung sponsors Khan, all the big sponsors are in KR. Not much towards the way of EU or NA let alone SEA. Everythign is korean focused damn it >.< and that's not good for SC2. That's my point. We have to get the focus away from Korea and more about the eSports as a whole.
|
On April 05 2013 04:38 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:33 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:30 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 04:18 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:16 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 04:14 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:59 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:55 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:46 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:28 Technique wrote:
[quote]
A coach can't have a proper observation of your game unless he's as high a level as you are... which like i said before, players can help each other with such ''coaching''. The offline tournament stress should be gone after a few tournaments as well.
And didn't i mention that you can't compare this to old sports? For obvious reasons.
No, you don't need to be as good as a progamer in terms of mechanical skill to actually be good at understanding the game. Some one who is not actively training will at best be able to follow the metagame and recognize the timings from a observer point of view... that's nothing special/useful. You will need to get ahead of the curve and estimate timings/strats with limited information if you want to separate yourself from the other ''top'' players. What kind of understanding can you bring to the table if it comes to the pro scene? Lots of players gain insight from watching the games and understanding the timings, because they don't have the problems you have as a player, which is incomplete information. They can immediately tell during or after a game how the timings will work out, where you could have improved or how to create timings. Only because you are mechanically not fit doesn't mean you cannot create strategy. I'll never be as good as Korean pros, yet I can discuss strategy with my friends among the German / European pros, because I understand strategies and their problems as well as the timing windows, doesn't mean I'm mechanically capable of playing them or executing them. It's an illusion, you only think you can. There are so much variables that new game specific timings occur which you as non pro player won't recognize. Players like mvp are CONSTANTLY re adjusting and re evaluating the situation in game. Not to speak of having to deal with ''new'' strats in tournaments like GSL were people prepare specifically for one opponent. Either way, bored of this discussion. I think I can? I know I can and for what reason? Because the pros do agree with me on my opinion. It doesn't matter if you disagree and are bored with that discussion. It also doesn't matter because you cannot provide anything to counterproof that coaches are actually useful to players. PS: Most coaches were progamers to begin with. I keep asking him that question, but he keeps ignoring it. He knows he wrong, but just doesn't want to respond to the points that every professional in the industry and the results of numerous pro-leagues disagree with him. Neither of you brought forward any proper argument against what i was saying... I said a coach is not needed if you got self discipline and help/coach each other... MVP and Nestea commenting on each other their game and point out holes or asking what they have problems against etc is so much more valuable than some guy with a tight schedule... And this of course also works on a lower level with European/American pros... infact i think many European players are already like that... and it shows... So why does Flash have a coach? Or Life? Why did Team Liquid hire one? Why do all the pro-league teams have coaches? Are you saying these players are doing it wrong? We don't need to prove anything. The entire industry uses coaches and you are saying they are bad. Prove why. I don't say they are bad... i say they are not needed and not having one should not be used as an excuse. As for the actual training... yes actual players that want to make each other better like the MVP/Nestea example i gave (could of used Flash with whoever if it makes you happy?) is indeed were it's at... and not with some ''professional coach''. But try to give an actual argument other than so and so has a coach?
All of the Korean scene uses coaches and they are the best in the world. If you get a group of driven players together and they practice and you take another group of equal skill and drive, but give them a professional coach, the side with the coach does better.
It is fact, plain and simple. Players do better with coaches and support. A group of driven players can only get so good until a professional coach gets involved. It works in all professional sports and it works in SC2. That is my argument and you saying it is not enough does not make it less of a fact. The best players in the world work with the best coaches and win because of it.
|
On April 05 2013 04:36 mdb wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:30 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 04:18 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:16 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 04:14 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:59 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:55 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:46 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:28 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:21 Type|NarutO wrote:
[quote]
Mindset, mentality, stress handling, scheduling, offering a neutral observation of your game. Why do professional sport athletes have coaches? Because they do have insight.
A coach can't have a proper observation of your game unless he's as high a level as you are... which like i said before, players can help each other with such ''coaching''. The offline tournament stress should be gone after a few tournaments as well. And didn't i mention that you can't compare this to old sports? For obvious reasons. No, you don't need to be as good as a progamer in terms of mechanical skill to actually be good at understanding the game. Some one who is not actively training will at best be able to follow the metagame and recognize the timings from a observer point of view... that's nothing special/useful. You will need to get ahead of the curve and estimate timings/strats with limited information if you want to separate yourself from the other ''top'' players. What kind of understanding can you bring to the table if it comes to the pro scene? Lots of players gain insight from watching the games and understanding the timings, because they don't have the problems you have as a player, which is incomplete information. They can immediately tell during or after a game how the timings will work out, where you could have improved or how to create timings. Only because you are mechanically not fit doesn't mean you cannot create strategy. I'll never be as good as Korean pros, yet I can discuss strategy with my friends among the German / European pros, because I understand strategies and their problems as well as the timing windows, doesn't mean I'm mechanically capable of playing them or executing them. It's an illusion, you only think you can. There are so much variables that new game specific timings occur which you as non pro player won't recognize. Players like mvp are CONSTANTLY re adjusting and re evaluating the situation in game. Not to speak of having to deal with ''new'' strats in tournaments like GSL were people prepare specifically for one opponent. Either way, bored of this discussion. I think I can? I know I can and for what reason? Because the pros do agree with me on my opinion. It doesn't matter if you disagree and are bored with that discussion. It also doesn't matter because you cannot provide anything to counterproof that coaches are actually useful to players. PS: Most coaches were progamers to begin with. I keep asking him that question, but he keeps ignoring it. He knows he wrong, but just doesn't want to respond to the points that every professional in the industry and the results of numerous pro-leagues disagree with him. Neither of you brought forward any proper argument against what i was saying... I said a coach is not needed if you got self discipline and help/coach each other... MVP and Nestea commenting on each other their game and point out holes or asking what they have problems against etc is so much more valuable than some guy with a tight schedule... And this of course also works on a lower level with European/American pros... infact i think many European players are already like that... and it shows... I must admit, in my 10 years on tl.net, I`ve never seen more stupid person than you.
How come?
On April 05 2013 04:45 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:38 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 04:33 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:30 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 04:18 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:16 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 04:14 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:59 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:55 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:46 Type|NarutO wrote:
[quote]
No, you don't need to be as good as a progamer in terms of mechanical skill to actually be good at understanding the game.
Some one who is not actively training will at best be able to follow the metagame and recognize the timings from a observer point of view... that's nothing special/useful. You will need to get ahead of the curve and estimate timings/strats with limited information if you want to separate yourself from the other ''top'' players. What kind of understanding can you bring to the table if it comes to the pro scene? Lots of players gain insight from watching the games and understanding the timings, because they don't have the problems you have as a player, which is incomplete information. They can immediately tell during or after a game how the timings will work out, where you could have improved or how to create timings. Only because you are mechanically not fit doesn't mean you cannot create strategy. I'll never be as good as Korean pros, yet I can discuss strategy with my friends among the German / European pros, because I understand strategies and their problems as well as the timing windows, doesn't mean I'm mechanically capable of playing them or executing them. It's an illusion, you only think you can. There are so much variables that new game specific timings occur which you as non pro player won't recognize. Players like mvp are CONSTANTLY re adjusting and re evaluating the situation in game. Not to speak of having to deal with ''new'' strats in tournaments like GSL were people prepare specifically for one opponent. Either way, bored of this discussion. I think I can? I know I can and for what reason? Because the pros do agree with me on my opinion. It doesn't matter if you disagree and are bored with that discussion. It also doesn't matter because you cannot provide anything to counterproof that coaches are actually useful to players. PS: Most coaches were progamers to begin with. I keep asking him that question, but he keeps ignoring it. He knows he wrong, but just doesn't want to respond to the points that every professional in the industry and the results of numerous pro-leagues disagree with him. Neither of you brought forward any proper argument against what i was saying... I said a coach is not needed if you got self discipline and help/coach each other... MVP and Nestea commenting on each other their game and point out holes or asking what they have problems against etc is so much more valuable than some guy with a tight schedule... And this of course also works on a lower level with European/American pros... infact i think many European players are already like that... and it shows... So why does Flash have a coach? Or Life? Why did Team Liquid hire one? Why do all the pro-league teams have coaches? Are you saying these players are doing it wrong? We don't need to prove anything. The entire industry uses coaches and you are saying they are bad. Prove why. I don't say they are bad... i say they are not needed and not having one should not be used as an excuse. As for the actual training... yes actual players that want to make each other better like the MVP/Nestea example i gave (could of used Flash with whoever if it makes you happy?) is indeed were it's at... and not with some ''professional coach''. But try to give an actual argument other than so and so has a coach? All of the Korean scene uses coaches and they are the best in the world. If you get a group of driven players together and they practice and you take another group of equal skill and drive, but give them a professional coach, the side with the coach does better. It is fact, plain and simple. Players do better with coaches and support. A group of driven players can only get so good until a professional coach gets involved. It works in all professional sports and it works in SC2. That is my argument and you saying it is not enough does not make it less of a fact. The best players in the world work with the best coaches and win because of it.
This is not a sport... it's a relative new video game... and my point is that pro players helping each other out is far more valuable than a coach... of course a team can hire one so that no one starts slacking... but a team manager can do that as well.
|
On April 05 2013 04:44 StrifeIsBack wrote:
@naruto
and how many foreigner teams do you see that happening? O.o very very few foreign teams have team houses, and the sort setup. The only NA team that has a team house setup is EG and they are obviously the best NA team.
That's my point we need to grow the foreign scene so that we can attain the things that the korean scene has so that one day the foreign scene can be/will be on par with that of the koreans, and for once foreigners can dominate.
Even more so the up and coming players don't have teams, and can't sustain themselves to playing SC2 for as long as the pros do. Without up and coming players there is no youth to foster, and raise, and educate. Hence no new names.
Why do you think it's so hard for amateur foreign teams to be established, and noticed? No sponsors. Nothing to gain for the player. That's why esports in general is just so damn hard to break into, and continue playing at a pace, and level that is needed for tournament play because we have no infastructure like all of the korean teamhouses.
I never did disagree with building up the scene. I simply disagree with banning based on origin / nationality.
|
On April 05 2013 04:47 Type|NarutO wrote:
I never did disagree with building up the scene. I simply disagree with banning based on origin / nationality.
Then how do you propose we grow the foreign scene while still allowing koreans to walk over the globe dominating?
|
On April 05 2013 04:45 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:36 mdb wrote:On April 05 2013 04:30 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 04:18 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:16 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 04:14 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:59 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:55 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:46 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:28 Technique wrote:
[quote]
A coach can't have a proper observation of your game unless he's as high a level as you are... which like i said before, players can help each other with such ''coaching''. The offline tournament stress should be gone after a few tournaments as well.
And didn't i mention that you can't compare this to old sports? For obvious reasons.
No, you don't need to be as good as a progamer in terms of mechanical skill to actually be good at understanding the game. Some one who is not actively training will at best be able to follow the metagame and recognize the timings from a observer point of view... that's nothing special/useful. You will need to get ahead of the curve and estimate timings/strats with limited information if you want to separate yourself from the other ''top'' players. What kind of understanding can you bring to the table if it comes to the pro scene? Lots of players gain insight from watching the games and understanding the timings, because they don't have the problems you have as a player, which is incomplete information. They can immediately tell during or after a game how the timings will work out, where you could have improved or how to create timings. Only because you are mechanically not fit doesn't mean you cannot create strategy. I'll never be as good as Korean pros, yet I can discuss strategy with my friends among the German / European pros, because I understand strategies and their problems as well as the timing windows, doesn't mean I'm mechanically capable of playing them or executing them. It's an illusion, you only think you can. There are so much variables that new game specific timings occur which you as non pro player won't recognize. Players like mvp are CONSTANTLY re adjusting and re evaluating the situation in game. Not to speak of having to deal with ''new'' strats in tournaments like GSL were people prepare specifically for one opponent. Either way, bored of this discussion. I think I can? I know I can and for what reason? Because the pros do agree with me on my opinion. It doesn't matter if you disagree and are bored with that discussion. It also doesn't matter because you cannot provide anything to counterproof that coaches are actually useful to players. PS: Most coaches were progamers to begin with. I keep asking him that question, but he keeps ignoring it. He knows he wrong, but just doesn't want to respond to the points that every professional in the industry and the results of numerous pro-leagues disagree with him. Neither of you brought forward any proper argument against what i was saying... I said a coach is not needed if you got self discipline and help/coach each other... MVP and Nestea commenting on each other their game and point out holes or asking what they have problems against etc is so much more valuable than some guy with a tight schedule... And this of course also works on a lower level with European/American pros... infact i think many European players are already like that... and it shows... I must admit, in my 10 years on tl.net, I`ve never seen more stupid person than you. How come? Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:45 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:38 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 04:33 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:30 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 04:18 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:16 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 04:14 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:59 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:55 Technique wrote:
[quote]
Some one who is not actively training will at best be able to follow the metagame and recognize the timings from a observer point of view... that's nothing special/useful.
You will need to get ahead of the curve and estimate timings/strats with limited information if you want to separate yourself from the other ''top'' players. What kind of understanding can you bring to the table if it comes to the pro scene? Lots of players gain insight from watching the games and understanding the timings, because they don't have the problems you have as a player, which is incomplete information. They can immediately tell during or after a game how the timings will work out, where you could have improved or how to create timings. Only because you are mechanically not fit doesn't mean you cannot create strategy. I'll never be as good as Korean pros, yet I can discuss strategy with my friends among the German / European pros, because I understand strategies and their problems as well as the timing windows, doesn't mean I'm mechanically capable of playing them or executing them. It's an illusion, you only think you can. There are so much variables that new game specific timings occur which you as non pro player won't recognize. Players like mvp are CONSTANTLY re adjusting and re evaluating the situation in game. Not to speak of having to deal with ''new'' strats in tournaments like GSL were people prepare specifically for one opponent. Either way, bored of this discussion. I think I can? I know I can and for what reason? Because the pros do agree with me on my opinion. It doesn't matter if you disagree and are bored with that discussion. It also doesn't matter because you cannot provide anything to counterproof that coaches are actually useful to players. PS: Most coaches were progamers to begin with. I keep asking him that question, but he keeps ignoring it. He knows he wrong, but just doesn't want to respond to the points that every professional in the industry and the results of numerous pro-leagues disagree with him. Neither of you brought forward any proper argument against what i was saying... I said a coach is not needed if you got self discipline and help/coach each other... MVP and Nestea commenting on each other their game and point out holes or asking what they have problems against etc is so much more valuable than some guy with a tight schedule... And this of course also works on a lower level with European/American pros... infact i think many European players are already like that... and it shows... So why does Flash have a coach? Or Life? Why did Team Liquid hire one? Why do all the pro-league teams have coaches? Are you saying these players are doing it wrong? We don't need to prove anything. The entire industry uses coaches and you are saying they are bad. Prove why. I don't say they are bad... i say they are not needed and not having one should not be used as an excuse. As for the actual training... yes actual players that want to make each other better like the MVP/Nestea example i gave (could of used Flash with whoever if it makes you happy?) is indeed were it's at... and not with some ''professional coach''. But try to give an actual argument other than so and so has a coach? All of the Korean scene uses coaches and they are the best in the world. If you get a group of driven players together and they practice and you take another group of equal skill and drive, but give them a professional coach, the side with the coach does better. It is fact, plain and simple. Players do better with coaches and support. A group of driven players can only get so good until a professional coach gets involved. It works in all professional sports and it works in SC2. That is my argument and you saying it is not enough does not make it less of a fact. The best players in the world work with the best coaches and win because of it. This is not a sport... it's a relative new video game... and my point is that pro players helping each other out is far more valuable than a coach... of course a team can hire one so that no one starts slacking... but a team manager can do that as well.
You do know that the Korean scene has been around for 10 years, right?
Also, the reason he said you were dumb is that you are claiming that a group of really good players could get to together, practice really really hard, and then win the GSL against Flash, Parting and Life. That is like a bunch of guys getting together and playing a lot of golf and then winning the Masters against Tiger Woods.
|
On April 05 2013 04:39 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:32 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 04:14 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 04:07 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:23 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 02:20 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:12 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:
[quote]
"I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea"
Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid.
"when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits,"
you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts.
Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better. Your proof is two boX? He lost to F91 and NonY. F91 being one of the very best Zergs at that time also taking games off of NaDa and NonY being an execptional player as well winning close by 3-2 ... not even taking the games into account. I can still remember his cancelled cc into gg. Your arguments are not just weak, but barely there. ya, after ad hominem, you decide to use strawman fallacy, labeling my evidence as weak does not take away the fact these evidence supports my argument, korean practice environment, and hard working that was idra did not respect the game, did not respect his opponent, did not have the skill to beat 2 people who did not practice nearly as hard as he did nor did those 2 person grind it out in korea as he did. tell me what do you think talent is in the game of sc2? Were you involved into Starcraft Broodwar? Because it sure does seem like you were not. NonY was an expectional player who did practice on iccup against mostly Koreans and tried to smooth out his builds as much as possible. You could always tell by the build order and placement who was playing. F91 was one of the chinese pros that were very similar to the Korean scene actually. F91, Legend ... if I remember correctly they even went to Korea for a short period of time and they sure did practice just as much as the Koreans. Also NonY was actually one of the very few persons IdrA did respect, resulting in him gg'ing out of every game, but it seems like you will not back off your point even if proven wrong. you proved what wrong? I have both nony and Idra in my team, we ended up needing to kick idra out for smurfing in a clan match, F91 was not in korea, and he wasn't consider to be on part with any big name korean. the whole reason i bought those these 2 boX is to support my argument that korean practice environment is not the key factor to produce results. You have said nothing to disprove that argument. By saying F91 and nony was respectable argument does not take away the fact that they both beat idra without using the korean practice environment. This is evidence for "practice environment is not the key factor to better result" If you want to disprove me, you would have to put down your own evidences such as a foreigner being in korean practice environment have produce consistent results against the koreans. (hell idra wasn't even fighting koreans for those 2 best of X and he still got his ass kicked) and then I gave you even more evidence about stephano did not need the korean practice environment to produce consistent results against the koreans. against this also support my argument that which is " practice environment is not the key factor to better result , i am not saying it would not help, but without talent no amount of practice can make you on part with the truly talented. You make tons of fallacies and I even point it out to you, yet you still say you proven me wrong? Statistic minority doesn't matter in overall statistics. Thats just how it is. Because IdrA doesn't put up amazing results (note: he did put up results) is not reflection of Korean training. Besides that Korean practice and especially Koreans do benefit from not having a language barrier. F91 and the chinese training was - in fact - really similar to Korean practice . Also if you cannot beat an argument of me - you simply ignore it. Thats a good way to win an argument against someone who will fall for it. I'll wait for you to actually counter my argument with facts. I did mention, that you have the proof of superior Korean practice all the time due to Koreans domenating non Koreans. You say its talent, I ask you; is every Korean talented? I ask you to go and see for example rets interview about Korea and how he didn't like it, yet it did improve his play a ton. Even if you argue that Korean training is not key, you cannot deny (at least) the fact that its superior and does - in fact - deliver results. not sure what you are talking about when you said I ignored you, there are too many ppl i replied to i might have not notice it, i am not denying the korean training is superior and it would deliver results. because all the koreans achievement are clear evidence for that but it still has nothing to do with my argument. What i am saying is that the korean training will not help if you don't process the talent to get those results in the first place, there are tons of koreans who practice in the korean training and sucks ass and they get weed out and you never heard of them. Have you consider that fact? Do you know about this old tournament Kespa used to run to spot new prospects? it's call the courage tournament, and you need to win it to get a pro licence, and there are ton of koreans attending that every time, and 99% of them fail and fail and fail, only 1 succeed. There were ton of 500apm monsters that are faster than nada back in the days, but they can't even get out of courage. Idra didn't win a courage tournament, ret didn't win it, even nony as close as he came within one game of winning it on his first try, he still didn't win it. I hope you can understand what i'm trying to tell you, whatever you are seeing right at in the kroean scene, they are the best of the best in the pool that include many many other less talented koreans. all ones who did not have talents already got weeded out. If you swap all the foreigners of now days with all the kespa players and have them train in the kespa team while the kespa players stay home and practice for themselves online, the kespa players would still dominate. Thats the first post of you I can agree with and thats the only point I never argued. You made it sound like Koreans are naturally talented / better than foreigners whereas we already said that they are just good at 1) finding players 2) raising players We all know that you don't enter a Korean progaming house and magically leave it as Starcraft god, but their training and superior environment allows for every player to improve. Ofcourse not everyone can be a Flash or a Life, ofcourse there are people more capable of understand and / or playing the game, but that doesn't mean that what we stated (Korean training is superior and does improve you over time in a lot higher fashion than any other training does) is wrong. It also is completely correct, that to reach the highest level of competition you NEED to play in Korea. We all saw Stephano taking games off of Koreans, but that was first of all a small sample size and secondly he was not always facing the best of the best. Ofcourse he took down Code - S calibers and some of the best players, but thats one exceptional player from thousands, so this should not be taken into consideration if you speak of statistically relevant things. Yes I do know about courage, but you didn't have to win it to get your progamer licence ;-)! Flash for example didn't win his courage in the first place, still got his licence^^.
glad you agree, i'm not saying it's worthless for foreigners to play in korea, they will get better, that system will get the best out of them, but that's where it ends. the best out of them will not be good enough to get the results we all hope for.
|
On April 05 2013 04:53 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:39 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 04:32 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 04:14 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 04:07 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:23 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 02:20 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:12 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:
[quote]
Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact.
IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better. Your proof is two boX? He lost to F91 and NonY. F91 being one of the very best Zergs at that time also taking games off of NaDa and NonY being an execptional player as well winning close by 3-2 ... not even taking the games into account. I can still remember his cancelled cc into gg. Your arguments are not just weak, but barely there. ya, after ad hominem, you decide to use strawman fallacy, labeling my evidence as weak does not take away the fact these evidence supports my argument, korean practice environment, and hard working that was idra did not respect the game, did not respect his opponent, did not have the skill to beat 2 people who did not practice nearly as hard as he did nor did those 2 person grind it out in korea as he did. tell me what do you think talent is in the game of sc2? Were you involved into Starcraft Broodwar? Because it sure does seem like you were not. NonY was an expectional player who did practice on iccup against mostly Koreans and tried to smooth out his builds as much as possible. You could always tell by the build order and placement who was playing. F91 was one of the chinese pros that were very similar to the Korean scene actually. F91, Legend ... if I remember correctly they even went to Korea for a short period of time and they sure did practice just as much as the Koreans. Also NonY was actually one of the very few persons IdrA did respect, resulting in him gg'ing out of every game, but it seems like you will not back off your point even if proven wrong. you proved what wrong? I have both nony and Idra in my team, we ended up needing to kick idra out for smurfing in a clan match, F91 was not in korea, and he wasn't consider to be on part with any big name korean. the whole reason i bought those these 2 boX is to support my argument that korean practice environment is not the key factor to produce results. You have said nothing to disprove that argument. By saying F91 and nony was respectable argument does not take away the fact that they both beat idra without using the korean practice environment. This is evidence for "practice environment is not the key factor to better result" If you want to disprove me, you would have to put down your own evidences such as a foreigner being in korean practice environment have produce consistent results against the koreans. (hell idra wasn't even fighting koreans for those 2 best of X and he still got his ass kicked) and then I gave you even more evidence about stephano did not need the korean practice environment to produce consistent results against the koreans. against this also support my argument that which is " practice environment is not the key factor to better result , i am not saying it would not help, but without talent no amount of practice can make you on part with the truly talented. You make tons of fallacies and I even point it out to you, yet you still say you proven me wrong? Statistic minority doesn't matter in overall statistics. Thats just how it is. Because IdrA doesn't put up amazing results (note: he did put up results) is not reflection of Korean training. Besides that Korean practice and especially Koreans do benefit from not having a language barrier. F91 and the chinese training was - in fact - really similar to Korean practice . Also if you cannot beat an argument of me - you simply ignore it. Thats a good way to win an argument against someone who will fall for it. I'll wait for you to actually counter my argument with facts. I did mention, that you have the proof of superior Korean practice all the time due to Koreans domenating non Koreans. You say its talent, I ask you; is every Korean talented? I ask you to go and see for example rets interview about Korea and how he didn't like it, yet it did improve his play a ton. Even if you argue that Korean training is not key, you cannot deny (at least) the fact that its superior and does - in fact - deliver results. not sure what you are talking about when you said I ignored you, there are too many ppl i replied to i might have not notice it, i am not denying the korean training is superior and it would deliver results. because all the koreans achievement are clear evidence for that but it still has nothing to do with my argument. What i am saying is that the korean training will not help if you don't process the talent to get those results in the first place, there are tons of koreans who practice in the korean training and sucks ass and they get weed out and you never heard of them. Have you consider that fact? Do you know about this old tournament Kespa used to run to spot new prospects? it's call the courage tournament, and you need to win it to get a pro licence, and there are ton of koreans attending that every time, and 99% of them fail and fail and fail, only 1 succeed. There were ton of 500apm monsters that are faster than nada back in the days, but they can't even get out of courage. Idra didn't win a courage tournament, ret didn't win it, even nony as close as he came within one game of winning it on his first try, he still didn't win it. I hope you can understand what i'm trying to tell you, whatever you are seeing right at in the kroean scene, they are the best of the best in the pool that include many many other less talented koreans. all ones who did not have talents already got weeded out. If you swap all the foreigners of now days with all the kespa players and have them train in the kespa team while the kespa players stay home and practice for themselves online, the kespa players would still dominate. Thats the first post of you I can agree with and thats the only point I never argued. You made it sound like Koreans are naturally talented / better than foreigners whereas we already said that they are just good at 1) finding players 2) raising players We all know that you don't enter a Korean progaming house and magically leave it as Starcraft god, but their training and superior environment allows for every player to improve. Ofcourse not everyone can be a Flash or a Life, ofcourse there are people more capable of understand and / or playing the game, but that doesn't mean that what we stated (Korean training is superior and does improve you over time in a lot higher fashion than any other training does) is wrong. It also is completely correct, that to reach the highest level of competition you NEED to play in Korea. We all saw Stephano taking games off of Koreans, but that was first of all a small sample size and secondly he was not always facing the best of the best. Ofcourse he took down Code - S calibers and some of the best players, but thats one exceptional player from thousands, so this should not be taken into consideration if you speak of statistically relevant things. Yes I do know about courage, but you didn't have to win it to get your progamer licence ;-)! Flash for example didn't win his courage in the first place, still got his licence^^. glad you agree, i'm not saying it's worthless for foreigners to play in korea, they will get better, that system will get the best out of them, but that's where it ends. the best out of them will not be good enough to get the results we all hope for.
A korean enviroment is the best for koreans. I doubt i as a german would improve more in a korean enviroment then i would in a caukasian enviroment.
|
On April 05 2013 04:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:45 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 04:36 mdb wrote:On April 05 2013 04:30 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 04:18 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:16 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 04:14 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:59 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:55 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:46 Type|NarutO wrote:
[quote]
No, you don't need to be as good as a progamer in terms of mechanical skill to actually be good at understanding the game.
Some one who is not actively training will at best be able to follow the metagame and recognize the timings from a observer point of view... that's nothing special/useful. You will need to get ahead of the curve and estimate timings/strats with limited information if you want to separate yourself from the other ''top'' players. What kind of understanding can you bring to the table if it comes to the pro scene? Lots of players gain insight from watching the games and understanding the timings, because they don't have the problems you have as a player, which is incomplete information. They can immediately tell during or after a game how the timings will work out, where you could have improved or how to create timings. Only because you are mechanically not fit doesn't mean you cannot create strategy. I'll never be as good as Korean pros, yet I can discuss strategy with my friends among the German / European pros, because I understand strategies and their problems as well as the timing windows, doesn't mean I'm mechanically capable of playing them or executing them. It's an illusion, you only think you can. There are so much variables that new game specific timings occur which you as non pro player won't recognize. Players like mvp are CONSTANTLY re adjusting and re evaluating the situation in game. Not to speak of having to deal with ''new'' strats in tournaments like GSL were people prepare specifically for one opponent. Either way, bored of this discussion. I think I can? I know I can and for what reason? Because the pros do agree with me on my opinion. It doesn't matter if you disagree and are bored with that discussion. It also doesn't matter because you cannot provide anything to counterproof that coaches are actually useful to players. PS: Most coaches were progamers to begin with. I keep asking him that question, but he keeps ignoring it. He knows he wrong, but just doesn't want to respond to the points that every professional in the industry and the results of numerous pro-leagues disagree with him. Neither of you brought forward any proper argument against what i was saying... I said a coach is not needed if you got self discipline and help/coach each other... MVP and Nestea commenting on each other their game and point out holes or asking what they have problems against etc is so much more valuable than some guy with a tight schedule... And this of course also works on a lower level with European/American pros... infact i think many European players are already like that... and it shows... I must admit, in my 10 years on tl.net, I`ve never seen more stupid person than you. How come? On April 05 2013 04:45 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:38 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 04:33 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:30 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 04:18 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:16 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 04:14 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:59 Type|NarutO wrote:
[quote]
What kind of understanding can you bring to the table if it comes to the pro scene? Lots of players gain insight from watching the games and understanding the timings, because they don't have the problems you have as a player, which is incomplete information. They can immediately tell during or after a game how the timings will work out, where you could have improved or how to create timings.
Only because you are mechanically not fit doesn't mean you cannot create strategy. I'll never be as good as Korean pros, yet I can discuss strategy with my friends among the German / European pros, because I understand strategies and their problems as well as the timing windows, doesn't mean I'm mechanically capable of playing them or executing them.
It's an illusion, you only think you can. There are so much variables that new game specific timings occur which you as non pro player won't recognize. Players like mvp are CONSTANTLY re adjusting and re evaluating the situation in game. Not to speak of having to deal with ''new'' strats in tournaments like GSL were people prepare specifically for one opponent. Either way, bored of this discussion. I think I can? I know I can and for what reason? Because the pros do agree with me on my opinion. It doesn't matter if you disagree and are bored with that discussion. It also doesn't matter because you cannot provide anything to counterproof that coaches are actually useful to players. PS: Most coaches were progamers to begin with. I keep asking him that question, but he keeps ignoring it. He knows he wrong, but just doesn't want to respond to the points that every professional in the industry and the results of numerous pro-leagues disagree with him. Neither of you brought forward any proper argument against what i was saying... I said a coach is not needed if you got self discipline and help/coach each other... MVP and Nestea commenting on each other their game and point out holes or asking what they have problems against etc is so much more valuable than some guy with a tight schedule... And this of course also works on a lower level with European/American pros... infact i think many European players are already like that... and it shows... So why does Flash have a coach? Or Life? Why did Team Liquid hire one? Why do all the pro-league teams have coaches? Are you saying these players are doing it wrong? We don't need to prove anything. The entire industry uses coaches and you are saying they are bad. Prove why. I don't say they are bad... i say they are not needed and not having one should not be used as an excuse. As for the actual training... yes actual players that want to make each other better like the MVP/Nestea example i gave (could of used Flash with whoever if it makes you happy?) is indeed were it's at... and not with some ''professional coach''. But try to give an actual argument other than so and so has a coach? All of the Korean scene uses coaches and they are the best in the world. If you get a group of driven players together and they practice and you take another group of equal skill and drive, but give them a professional coach, the side with the coach does better. It is fact, plain and simple. Players do better with coaches and support. A group of driven players can only get so good until a professional coach gets involved. It works in all professional sports and it works in SC2. That is my argument and you saying it is not enough does not make it less of a fact. The best players in the world work with the best coaches and win because of it. This is not a sport... it's a relative new video game... and my point is that pro players helping each other out is far more valuable than a coach... of course a team can hire one so that no one starts slacking... but a team manager can do that as well. You do know that the Korean scene has been around for 10 years, right? Also, the reason he said you were dumb is that you are claiming that a group of really good players could get to together, practice really really hard, and then win the GSL against Flash, Parting and Life. That is like a bunch of guys getting together and playing a lot of golf and then winning the Masters against Tiger Woods.
Hence the word ''relative''... 10 years is nothing when you compare it to sports and what those coaches have to work with.
Not to speak of the fact that sc2 is a completely new game.
And you keep bringing up Flash, it's funny... you really believe he got so good due to a coach? Won't it be due to the quality training partners?...
I'm sure if there was no coach, but a team manager that it would not have made a difference.
|
On April 05 2013 04:42 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:39 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 04:27 Plansix wrote:
I would argue they have a better system in place for finding the best players and then providing them with the support they need to become the best. This system is supported and funded by the largest companies in the country and also receives government support.
this is what I agree on, they have a better system in place for them to find better talents! the foreigners don't. never mind the support and the funding, if they can't find the best talents they can find in the first place they would not be dominating like this. Here is the history behind the talent searching in kespa, they had this one thing call courage tournament in bw days, all the current pros had to fought through this courage tournament to get a pro license. It's just as brutal as GSL code A qualifier, when a player wins courage, they get pick up by a team. and all those who doesn't win time after time, they get faded out and weeded out. What you see in kespa are the best of the best out of thousands of koreans who thinks they can make it to the big stage. That's the talents the rest of the world can not match, unless you are stephano. Your statement generally is right, but not completely true. By.Snow for example didn't win courage, but has a progamer licence, because teams can give it out. IdrA got a progamer licence as well without winning courage. Also Draco. Besides that, there was a foreigner (Assem) who won a courage tournament. Also Legionnaire
idra couldn't win his even if he try, superdaniel gave him one because he needed to trade idra to CJ. coaches of the kespa team have 2 license to give out each year, they usually give it to training partners in their own team house since they know their talents first hand. There were foreigner talents, elky for example managed to get osl 4th place of an OSL in the pool of players including nada and savior, iloveoovand stork. and nony would have won a courage if he stayed there longer.
|
On April 05 2013 04:52 StrifeIsBack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:47 Type|NarutO wrote:
I never did disagree with building up the scene. I simply disagree with banning based on origin / nationality. Then how do you propose we grow the foreign scene while still allowing koreans to walk over the globe dominating?
stop subsidizing the travel costs (i.e., airfare, hotels, etc.). i imagine we will see less koreans if they are required to fund their own travel costs. of course, this will make foreign tournaments less exciting to many so it is probably not a good idea for event organizers.
|
On April 05 2013 05:00 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:53 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:45 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 04:36 mdb wrote:On April 05 2013 04:30 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 04:18 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:16 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 04:14 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:59 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:55 Technique wrote:
[quote]
Some one who is not actively training will at best be able to follow the metagame and recognize the timings from a observer point of view... that's nothing special/useful.
You will need to get ahead of the curve and estimate timings/strats with limited information if you want to separate yourself from the other ''top'' players. What kind of understanding can you bring to the table if it comes to the pro scene? Lots of players gain insight from watching the games and understanding the timings, because they don't have the problems you have as a player, which is incomplete information. They can immediately tell during or after a game how the timings will work out, where you could have improved or how to create timings. Only because you are mechanically not fit doesn't mean you cannot create strategy. I'll never be as good as Korean pros, yet I can discuss strategy with my friends among the German / European pros, because I understand strategies and their problems as well as the timing windows, doesn't mean I'm mechanically capable of playing them or executing them. It's an illusion, you only think you can. There are so much variables that new game specific timings occur which you as non pro player won't recognize. Players like mvp are CONSTANTLY re adjusting and re evaluating the situation in game. Not to speak of having to deal with ''new'' strats in tournaments like GSL were people prepare specifically for one opponent. Either way, bored of this discussion. I think I can? I know I can and for what reason? Because the pros do agree with me on my opinion. It doesn't matter if you disagree and are bored with that discussion. It also doesn't matter because you cannot provide anything to counterproof that coaches are actually useful to players. PS: Most coaches were progamers to begin with. I keep asking him that question, but he keeps ignoring it. He knows he wrong, but just doesn't want to respond to the points that every professional in the industry and the results of numerous pro-leagues disagree with him. Neither of you brought forward any proper argument against what i was saying... I said a coach is not needed if you got self discipline and help/coach each other... MVP and Nestea commenting on each other their game and point out holes or asking what they have problems against etc is so much more valuable than some guy with a tight schedule... And this of course also works on a lower level with European/American pros... infact i think many European players are already like that... and it shows... I must admit, in my 10 years on tl.net, I`ve never seen more stupid person than you. How come? On April 05 2013 04:45 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:38 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 04:33 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:30 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 04:18 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 04:16 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 04:14 Technique wrote:
[quote]
It's an illusion, you only think you can.
There are so much variables that new game specific timings occur which you as non pro player won't recognize.
Players like mvp are CONSTANTLY re adjusting and re evaluating the situation in game.
Not to speak of having to deal with ''new'' strats in tournaments like GSL were people prepare specifically for one opponent.
Either way, bored of this discussion. I think I can? I know I can and for what reason? Because the pros do agree with me on my opinion. It doesn't matter if you disagree and are bored with that discussion. It also doesn't matter because you cannot provide anything to counterproof that coaches are actually useful to players. PS: Most coaches were progamers to begin with. I keep asking him that question, but he keeps ignoring it. He knows he wrong, but just doesn't want to respond to the points that every professional in the industry and the results of numerous pro-leagues disagree with him. Neither of you brought forward any proper argument against what i was saying... I said a coach is not needed if you got self discipline and help/coach each other... MVP and Nestea commenting on each other their game and point out holes or asking what they have problems against etc is so much more valuable than some guy with a tight schedule... And this of course also works on a lower level with European/American pros... infact i think many European players are already like that... and it shows... So why does Flash have a coach? Or Life? Why did Team Liquid hire one? Why do all the pro-league teams have coaches? Are you saying these players are doing it wrong? We don't need to prove anything. The entire industry uses coaches and you are saying they are bad. Prove why. I don't say they are bad... i say they are not needed and not having one should not be used as an excuse. As for the actual training... yes actual players that want to make each other better like the MVP/Nestea example i gave (could of used Flash with whoever if it makes you happy?) is indeed were it's at... and not with some ''professional coach''. But try to give an actual argument other than so and so has a coach? All of the Korean scene uses coaches and they are the best in the world. If you get a group of driven players together and they practice and you take another group of equal skill and drive, but give them a professional coach, the side with the coach does better. It is fact, plain and simple. Players do better with coaches and support. A group of driven players can only get so good until a professional coach gets involved. It works in all professional sports and it works in SC2. That is my argument and you saying it is not enough does not make it less of a fact. The best players in the world work with the best coaches and win because of it. This is not a sport... it's a relative new video game... and my point is that pro players helping each other out is far more valuable than a coach... of course a team can hire one so that no one starts slacking... but a team manager can do that as well. You do know that the Korean scene has been around for 10 years, right? Also, the reason he said you were dumb is that you are claiming that a group of really good players could get to together, practice really really hard, and then win the GSL against Flash, Parting and Life. That is like a bunch of guys getting together and playing a lot of golf and then winning the Masters against Tiger Woods. Hence the word ''relative''... 10 years is nothing when you compare it to sports and what those coaches have to work with. Not to speak of the fact that sc2 is a completely new game. And you keep bringing up Flash, it's funny... you really believe he got so good due to a coach? Won't it be due to the quality training partners?... I'm sure if there was no coach, but a team manager that it would not have made a difference.
And that sir, is where you are 100% incorrect. Flash is an amazing player, but he has only been made better by a coach managing his practice time and providing him with feed back on where to focus. The quality of his practice partners also matters, but the coaching in critical to how well he does.
Once again, high level professionals also agree with this, like Artosis, Liquid Naz'gul, including the most winning Kespa teams. Are you saying they are wrong and TL never should have hired Coach Park?
|
On April 05 2013 05:05 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:52 StrifeIsBack wrote:On April 05 2013 04:47 Type|NarutO wrote:
I never did disagree with building up the scene. I simply disagree with banning based on origin / nationality. Then how do you propose we grow the foreign scene while still allowing koreans to walk over the globe dominating? stop subsidizing the travel costs (i.e., airfare, hotels, etc.). i imagine we will see less koreans if they are required to fund their own travel costs. of course, this will make foreign tournaments less exciting to many so it is probably not a good idea for event organizers.
It might not be. If the Koreans dominate every event, they run the risk of the scene just fading out and interest falling off over the years. I am not saying it would happen, but flying in all of code S to MLG might lose its luster after 3-4 events. I think leveling the playing field by making everyone pay their way would be better over all.
|
On April 05 2013 03:55 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:46 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:28 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:21 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:19 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:15 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 03:01 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:40 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:34 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:31 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
If it were that easy, people would just do it. That is not the type of system that the Kespa teams have and they are doing the best right now. Kespa teams have coaches that schedule, review games and manage the players, the amount they practice and what they practice. There is a reason Coach Park has the most winning record of all the Kespa coaches and his teams do the best. They don't just mass practice, they practice better than other teams because he manages how they practice. Pretty sure people have done exactly what i said and became top players... Thing is however... Korea simply has MUCH more serious rts players... that's all there is to it. Flash and Life did not do that. Neither did Parting. They all had coaches, teams and groups around them managing them, helping them practice. These players did not become amazing just by grinding out games together. Its not about man hours and dedication, its about infrastructure. A coach can't do anything a group of dedicated players can't do for there selfs... Problem is players are streaming and laddering instead, which really is a time waste... Artosis and every professional in the industry disagrees with you and the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor that players do better with coaches. A group of passionate, dedicated players will not do as well as the same group with a professional coach. Coach Park is the best example, who lead every team he coached to a winning record and the play offs in Proleague. You also don't understand why NA teams stream, even on TL, who has korean players that stream. They don't do it for the money from streaming, but to provide numbers to their sponsors, who support the teams ability to travel to different events. Ok tell me one thing that coach can do that a dedicated player can't do on his own? It's all about self discipline. Those coaches got nothing to teach... this ain't some old sport like boxing/football etc... Also you think i don't understand they stream for money because i say it's a time waste? I was speaking from a point of view were players try to catch up to the Korean skill level... streaming and long ladder sessions can't be part of that. Mindset, mentality, stress handling, scheduling, offering a neutral observation of your game. Why do professional sport athletes have coaches? Because they do have insight. A coach can't have a proper observation of your game unless he's as high a level as you are... which like i said before, players can help each other with such ''coaching''. The offline tournament stress should be gone after a few tournaments as well. And didn't i mention that you can't compare this to old sports? For obvious reasons. No, you don't need to be as good as a progamer in terms of mechanical skill to actually be good at understanding the game. Some one who is not actively training will at best be able to follow the metagame and recognize the timings from a observer point of view... that's nothing special/useful. You will need to get ahead of the curve and estimate timings/strats with limited information if you want to separate yourself from the other ''top'' players.
actually that is extremely useful. It is those with deep insights that can see weakness in opponents build and create new ones specifically to counter
Anyhow, you're not going to find a friend or random pro that is willing to sit through a 20 minute game analyizing every detail of your plays to spot improvements, that is what coaches are being paid for. Hell, most players probably won't do it themselves and only jump through replays to see the important aspects. So many parts that can be improved are completely oblivious to the player and requires a well knowledged 3rd party to spot them.
|
People tend to like "the underdog", plus foreigners have more personality then the average Korean. I personally don't care what ethnicity are doing the best, as long as we are able to see their personalities. People like MKP, and MMA were fun to root for and watch, most of the Korean's are too reserved though. It's just part of their culture, and their routine. My girlfriend is from Korea, and I'm constantly trying to get her to talk to more people, or try more things.
|
I think the skill gap is mainly because of practice regimen/structure. If you watch a korean vs. foreigner match, the korean progamer usually wins with better mechanics and more precise timings. It's very rarely because the Korean outsmarts the foreigner. As for the foreigner, I can't think of the number of times I've seen someone try something that is conceptually sound, but the execution was just poor because of lackluster mechanics.
Mechanics and precise timings can only be honed with focused practice. There's no trick to it. A coach and team house can help with that because they won't let their players' focus split among many things like appeasing fans with non-serious streamed games and trying to help esports grow with silly non-competitive events like talks on theorycraft. The korean team house structure probably allows players to have that tunnel focus on just getting the mechanics down-pat and improving as a player, and not letting them worry about other shit like entertaining fans or the future of esports.
Also, as for streams, I'm still convinced there is no way for a player to be 100% focused on improving as a player while streaming to a large number of viewers. They may be tempted to entertain with ballsy/funny builds or waste time by reading through stream chat comments and responding. Also, psychologically the player may feel a bit self-conscious with what builds they experiment with or practice. With that mindset, it's difficult to try to focus in on your flaws because a player would always want to show his good side to his fans. So, a player who's streaming might be tempted to do builds or match-ups they're confident in to avoid flaming stream viewers.
|
On April 05 2013 05:37 EpiK wrote:
I think the skill gap is mainly because of practice regimen/structure. If you watch a korean vs. foreigner match, the korean progamer usually wins with better mechanics and more precise timings. It's very rarely because the Korean outsmarts the foreigner. As for the foreigner, I can't think of the number of times I've seen someone try something that is conceptually sound, but the execution was just poor because of lackluster mechanics.
Mechanics and precise timings can be only be honed with focused practice. There's no trick to it. A coach and team house can help with that because they won't let their players focus split among many things like appeasing fans with non-serious streamed games and trying to help esports grow with silly non-competitive events and talks with theorycraft. The korean team house structure probably allows players to have that tunnel focus on just getting the mechanics down-pat and improving as a player, and not letting them worry about other shit like entertaining fans or the future of esports.
if you been reading the thread, you would know it's not as simple as practice regimen/structure, korea had been weeding out all the lesser talented korean players and gathered all the talented korean players for the past 10 years, you would see the gap closing when the foreigners have more talents of comparable level shows up. So far we have 1 and his name is stephano.
|
On April 05 2013 05:37 EpiK wrote:
I think the skill gap is mainly because of practice regimen/structure. If you watch a korean vs. foreigner match, the korean progamer usually wins with better mechanics and more precise timings. It's very rarely because the Korean outsmarts the foreigner. As for the foreigner, I can't think of the number of times I've seen someone try something that is conceptually sound, but the execution was just poor because of lackluster mechanics.
Mechanics and precise timings can be only be honed with focused practice. There's no trick to it. A coach and team house can help with that because they won't let their players focus split among many things like appeasing fans with non-serious streamed games and trying to help esports grow with silly non-competitive events and talks with theorycraft. The korean team house structure probably allows players to have that tunnel focus on just getting the mechanics down-pat and improving as a player, and not letting them worry about other shit like entertaining fans or the future of esports.
You're spot on. If foreigners want to keep up, they've got to start focusing more on mechanics. That's all there is to it. StarCraft is not a game of "strategy...," it's a game of execution.
|
On April 05 2013 06:02 Qwyn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 05:37 EpiK wrote:
I think the skill gap is mainly because of practice regimen/structure. If you watch a korean vs. foreigner match, the korean progamer usually wins with better mechanics and more precise timings. It's very rarely because the Korean outsmarts the foreigner. As for the foreigner, I can't think of the number of times I've seen someone try something that is conceptually sound, but the execution was just poor because of lackluster mechanics.
Mechanics and precise timings can be only be honed with focused practice. There's no trick to it. A coach and team house can help with that because they won't let their players focus split among many things like appeasing fans with non-serious streamed games and trying to help esports grow with silly non-competitive events and talks with theorycraft. The korean team house structure probably allows players to have that tunnel focus on just getting the mechanics down-pat and improving as a player, and not letting them worry about other shit like entertaining fans or the future of esports. You're spot on. If foreigners want to keep up, they've got to start focusing more on mechanics. That's all there is to it. StarCraft is not a game of "strategy...," it's a game of execution.
hmmm not many see it that way (i agree 9000%)...especially from NA players, and blizzard.
|
On April 05 2013 05:57 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 05:37 EpiK wrote:
I think the skill gap is mainly because of practice regimen/structure. If you watch a korean vs. foreigner match, the korean progamer usually wins with better mechanics and more precise timings. It's very rarely because the Korean outsmarts the foreigner. As for the foreigner, I can't think of the number of times I've seen someone try something that is conceptually sound, but the execution was just poor because of lackluster mechanics.
Mechanics and precise timings can be only be honed with focused practice. There's no trick to it. A coach and team house can help with that because they won't let their players focus split among many things like appeasing fans with non-serious streamed games and trying to help esports grow with silly non-competitive events and talks with theorycraft. The korean team house structure probably allows players to have that tunnel focus on just getting the mechanics down-pat and improving as a player, and not letting them worry about other shit like entertaining fans or the future of esports. if you been reading the thread, you would know it's not as simple as practice regimen/structure, korea had been weeding out all the lesser talented korean players and gathered all the talented korean players for the past 10 years, you would see the gap closing when the foreigners have more talents of comparable level shows up. So far we have 1 and his name is stephano.
Isn´t that paradoxum? I mean as i understand you, you say "korea" gathered all talented players. "Korea" is/are a regime/structure?
Maybe i just don´t understand what you wanted to say. =(
|
you can't train talents, you have to find them, you can train skills, but skill is capped by a player's talent. and of course, you might not realize this because you have a different understanding of what talent is in sc2.
|
On April 05 2013 06:26 rei wrote:
you can't train talents, you have to find them, you can train skills, but skill is capped by a player's talent. and of course, you might not realize this because you have a different understanding of what talent is in sc2.
I'm going to have to vehemently disagree here...It basically comes down to whether you believe "talent" or effort is the deciding factor of skill. "Talent," this so called thing, is not something you can acquire. It is not something you can train.
If you were a player, or a practitioner of any discipline where people believe "talent" plays a big part, how insulting would that be? There's no point talking about "talent." It's pointless. Talent does not make the best players in the world.
Hard work does. Talent is not something you can put your faith in. Effort is.
|
On April 05 2013 06:26 rei wrote:
you can't train talents, you have to find them, you can train skills, but skill is capped by a player's talent. and of course, you might not realize this because you have a different understanding of what talent is in sc2.
And Korea has a better system to find the most talented players and reward them, while eliminating the lesser players. NA and EU don't have anything like this, so we have not found our most talented players(and they likely don't know they are the most talented)
|
On April 05 2013 06:29 Qwyn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 06:26 rei wrote:
you can't train talents, you have to find them, you can train skills, but skill is capped by a player's talent. and of course, you might not realize this because you have a different understanding of what talent is in sc2. I'm going to have to vehemently disagree here...It basically comes down to whether you believe "talent" or effort is the deciding factor of skill. "Talent," this so called thing, is not something you can acquire. It is not something you can train. If you were a player, or a practitioner of any discipline where people believe "talent" plays a big part, how insulting would that be? There's no point talking about "talent." It's pointless. Talent does not make the best players in the world. Hard work does. Talent is not something you can put your faith in. Effort is.
i disagree, hard work only increases the chances of success and so does talent.
i'm certain people have failed despite working their heart out. easiest way to define talent would be something like a singer, artists, prodigies, a "natural" is what i'd call talent and hard work builds on top of that. at the same time i believe it is interchangable, talent isn't acquired without trying.
so to say "effort" is all that is needed is offensive to people that has tried everything and still failed, telling them "you didnt try hard enough" will be a insult or add more to their "shameful truth" of regret they've put it on themselves as those who train hard will be hard on themselves.
|
yes what you said is politically correct. idra worked hard for 2 years in korea and practice his mechanics and execution and strategy aspect of the game with the best of the CJ players. Why did his hard work not paid off versus some random Chinese zerg that is F91 and a wild nony came out of 2 years of retirement to practice for 2 weeks? What contribute to idra's failure? what does he lack that nony and f91 both have? certainly not lack of effort and korean training, he has both. ask yourself that question.
|
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying.
Put yourself in the position of the player. It's so fucking easy for an observer to comment and say "this player must have so much natural talent," or "this player just doesn't have the natural talent."
As a player? Why would you ever believe in a thing like "talent?" Talent is this unattainable "thing" that is gifted to some players but not to others. There's no fucking point in talking about "natural talent." At the end of the day, that isn't going to decide what makes a good player.
Do you think a player really wants to hear people say he won because he is "naturally talented?" No. He wants you to recognize that he won because of hard work. Like I said. As a player, there's no point in talking about "talent." Natural talent does not make the best players in the world. Hard work does.
That's not only a positive and fulfilling mindset, it's also how the best players in the world come about.
EDIT: What I'm trying to get across here is that "natural talent" is not something you can control. It's not even something you can evaluate. As a player, the only thing you can control is effort. And in ANY discipline, it is EFFORT that is the deciding factor. I think it's ridiculous to let "natural talent" overshadow the hours of effort that all of these players put into the game.
|
Dude, I think viewers don't care anymore.
Like in WoL, the game was kinda lame and there wasn't that much action going on at once; thus, I think we needed an outlet for cheering because of how the game was being progressed (not much action throughout, when there was action it was the end of a game), so we needed foreigners to do well for our "stories" (big bad Koreans stopping foreigners, Stephano/Naniwa/etc. are our only hope). Thus it was not very fun to watch, but still cool to see that our foreigners weren't totally being devastated if one of them got to top 8 or something.
But after seeing the most recent MLG, there was so much action, it was just ridiculously awesome. Like, Polt's, Flash's, Life's, Innovation's, and Leenock's multitask was just so incredible I loved watching them play. The games are definitely worth watching, and the "story" (at least to me, but I think to many others as well) becomes irrelevant because I'm watching good games that keep me excited through out.
I think as viewers, we are evolving from liking specific players for "stories" to liking specific players for "content," (If you want proof, look at the viewership of the latest MLG vs. most other MLGs and DHs) and I think Korean players have the most to offer in that respect.
As viewers, our only concern is action; nothing less, nothing more. If we don't get the action from the games we play, we'll get it from stories that we make up about Koreans and foreigners. But we don't have to do that anymore; the action can take place entirely in the game.
|
On April 05 2013 06:45 Qwyn wrote:
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying.
Put yourself in the position of the player. It's so fucking easy for an observer to comment and say "this player must have so much natural talent," or "this player just doesn't have the natural talent."
As a player? Why would you ever believe in a thing like "talent?" Talent is this unattainable "thing" that is gifted to some players but not to others. There's no fucking point in talking about "natural talent." At the end of the day, that isn't going to decide what makes a good player.
Do you think a player really wants to hear people say he won because he is "naturally talented?" No. He wants you to recognize that he won because of hard work. Like I said. As a player, there's no point in talking about "talent." Natural talent does not make the best players in the world. Hard work does.
That's not only a positive and fulfilling mindset, it's also how the best players in the world come about.
that is a mindset that players put it on themselves to improve themselves but it doesnt change the reality. to be honest, a lot of pros are modest in this.
lets say flash and his buddies, while a kid was playing at a pc bang and in a very short time, flash is beating players that he couldnt touch few weeks ago. the natural comment would be "his got talent" and should try for pros. its easy for commentators to say he or she is talented, it happens really often. i dont know how anyone can describe messi without mentioning the word "talented".
i'm saying effort is what bring those talent to fruition, talent exists.
i'm sure some where some kid was playing basketball more enjoyably and more often, working just as hard if not more than lebron james, but that alone wont help him become a nba player.
|
On April 05 2013 06:51 furerkip wrote:
Dude, I think viewers don't care anymore.
Like in WoL, the game was kinda lame and there wasn't that much action going on at once; thus, I think we needed an outlet for cheering because of how the game was being progressed (not much action throughout, when there was action it was the end of a game), so we needed foreigners to do well for our "stories" (big bad Koreans stopping foreigners, Stephano/Naniwa/etc. are our only hope). Thus it was not very fun to watch, but still cool to see that our foreigners weren't totally being devastated if one of them got to top 8 or something.
But after seeing the most recent MLG, there was so much action, it was just ridiculously awesome. Like, Polt's, Flash's, Life's, Innovation's, and Leenock's multitask was just so incredible I loved watching them play. The games are definitely worth watching, and the "story" (at least to me, but I think to many others as well) becomes irrelevant because I'm watching good games that keep me excited through out.
I think as viewers, we are evolving from liking specific players for "stories" to liking specific players for "content," (If you want proof, look at the viewership of the latest MLG vs. most other MLGs and DHs) and I think Korean players have the most to offer in that respect.
As viewers, our only concern is action; nothing less, nothing more. If we don't get the action from the games we play, we'll get it from stories that we make up about Koreans and foreigners. But we don't have to do that anymore; the action can take place entirely in the game.
You using many times the word "we". I don´t have the same opinion then you.
|
On April 05 2013 06:54 jinorazi wrote:
that is a mindset that players put it on themselves to improve themselves but it doesnt change the reality. to be honest, a lot of pros are modest in this.
lets say flash and his buddies, while a kid was playing at a pc bang and in a very short time, flash is beating players that he couldnt touch few weeks ago. the natural comment would be "his got talent" and should try for pros. its easy for commentators to say he or she is talented, it happens really often. i dont know how anyone can describe messi without mentioning the word "talented".
i'm saying effort is what bring those talent to fruition, talent exists.
i'm sure some where some kid was playing basketball more enjoyably and more often than lebron james, but that alone wont help him become a nba player.
To be able to recognize this mindset and distinguish between reality and ideals is a talent too
|
Also @the talent discussion
There isn´t any acceptance for E-Sport(sman) in the NA/EU society like in asian. There ísn´t any infrastructure for E-Sports(man) in the NA/EU like in korea. So why you even discuse talent vs training when there´s no fucking base for talenthunters or training houses? I just don´t understand the purpose of finding out if talent is better or vice versa or both or if you´re blessed from god.
|
On April 05 2013 06:54 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 06:45 Qwyn wrote:
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying.
Put yourself in the position of the player. It's so fucking easy for an observer to comment and say "this player must have so much natural talent," or "this player just doesn't have the natural talent."
As a player? Why would you ever believe in a thing like "talent?" Talent is this unattainable "thing" that is gifted to some players but not to others. There's no fucking point in talking about "natural talent." At the end of the day, that isn't going to decide what makes a good player.
Do you think a player really wants to hear people say he won because he is "naturally talented?" No. He wants you to recognize that he won because of hard work. Like I said. As a player, there's no point in talking about "talent." Natural talent does not make the best players in the world. Hard work does.
That's not only a positive and fulfilling mindset, it's also how the best players in the world come about. that is a mindset that players put it on themselves to improve themselves but it doesnt change the reality. to be honest, a lot of pros are modest in this. lets say flash and his buddies, while a kid was playing at a pc bang and in a very short time, flash is beating players that he couldnt touch few weeks ago. the natural comment would be "his got talent" and should try for pros. its easy for commentators to say he or she is talented, it happens really often. i dont know how anyone can describe messi without mentioning the word "talented". i'm saying effort is what bring those talent to fruition, talent exists. i'm sure some where some kid was playing basketball more enjoyably and more often, working just as hard if not more than lebron james, but that alone wont help him become a nba player.
I'm not discounting aptitude. In that, I will agree with you - that some players show a greater aptitude towards the game than others. But I stand by the idea that anyone can become an expert at something if they put enough effort in. I stand by the idea that effort composes 99% of what a player is. Returning to Flash. Why did he become God? Is it because of "talent," this thing that is unquantifiable and uncontrollable?
How many times did you read about how Flash practiced more than any other player, even when others were goofing off? How many times did you read about how Jaedong practiced non-stop to be the best? You read similar accounts about the best players. That they practice the most.
A player who puts enough effort in CAN "change their reality."
I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree. At this point we're just "debating the existence of God." Rather pointless.
|
Personally I argue that (as a private viewer), quality games are the most important thing.
So if a tournament had really incredible games, I would come out of that saying, "wow that was epic!" and not care as much about the players.
So far my post isn't related to ANYTHING OP has said so far, but if a Canadian-only tournament was to come around, and produce good games, it wouldn't bother me that there weren't any Koreans, but if a bunch of Koreans played an overseas tournament and ended up giving boring performances (all hypothetical obviously), then I would personally say that the tournament wasn't great, even if there were high-profile players and high-cash values. The whole stigma of "no foreigners," basically isn't entirely the fault of the progamers but obviously to me, eSports should award performance and not nationality, but there SHOULD be tournaments (not premier-tier tournaments) which are internal-only, if only to enhance the growth of eSports.
TL;DR? Basically, I find quality of games to be the most pivotal point of a tournament, and PERSONALLY couldn't care less where that comes from, and that I wouldn't be LESS incentivized to watch anything with almost all Koreans in the top8.
|
On April 05 2013 06:02 Qwyn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 05:37 EpiK wrote:
I think the skill gap is mainly because of practice regimen/structure. If you watch a korean vs. foreigner match, the korean progamer usually wins with better mechanics and more precise timings. It's very rarely because the Korean outsmarts the foreigner. As for the foreigner, I can't think of the number of times I've seen someone try something that is conceptually sound, but the execution was just poor because of lackluster mechanics.
Mechanics and precise timings can be only be honed with focused practice. There's no trick to it. A coach and team house can help with that because they won't let their players focus split among many things like appeasing fans with non-serious streamed games and trying to help esports grow with silly non-competitive events and talks with theorycraft. The korean team house structure probably allows players to have that tunnel focus on just getting the mechanics down-pat and improving as a player, and not letting them worry about other shit like entertaining fans or the future of esports. You're spot on. If foreigners want to keep up, they've got to start focusing more on mechanics. That's all there is to it. StarCraft is not a game of "strategy...," it's a game of execution.
I wouldn't say that's all there is to it. I'd say that's the first step to close the gap. Starcraft IS a game of strategy, but the strategic play comes after mastering the mechanics. I'd call the builds a player chooses and the meta-game shifts you see between 2 code s players that know each others' play styles well, pure strategy. But that stage of play only comes with perfect mechanics. I see too many foreigners in major events try to execute a strategically better build but ultimately lose the game because of undeveloped mechanics.
A match that comes to mind is Flash vs Bly from the most recent MLG. Bly seemed to be one of the few players that tournament who understood the strategic value of vipers in ZvT and used them frequently. But he lost a game he was ahead in ultimately because of poor control of ultras and bad macro.
|
On April 05 2013 07:12 EpiK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 06:02 Qwyn wrote:On April 05 2013 05:37 EpiK wrote:
I think the skill gap is mainly because of practice regimen/structure. If you watch a korean vs. foreigner match, the korean progamer usually wins with better mechanics and more precise timings. It's very rarely because the Korean outsmarts the foreigner. As for the foreigner, I can't think of the number of times I've seen someone try something that is conceptually sound, but the execution was just poor because of lackluster mechanics.
Mechanics and precise timings can be only be honed with focused practice. There's no trick to it. A coach and team house can help with that because they won't let their players focus split among many things like appeasing fans with non-serious streamed games and trying to help esports grow with silly non-competitive events and talks with theorycraft. The korean team house structure probably allows players to have that tunnel focus on just getting the mechanics down-pat and improving as a player, and not letting them worry about other shit like entertaining fans or the future of esports. You're spot on. If foreigners want to keep up, they've got to start focusing more on mechanics. That's all there is to it. StarCraft is not a game of "strategy...," it's a game of execution. I wouldn't say that's all there is to it. I'm just saying that's the first step. Starcraft IS a game of strategy, but the strategic play comes after mastering the mechanics. I'd call the builds a player chooses and the meta-game shifts you see between 2 code s players that know each others' play styles well, pure strategy. But that stage of play only comes with a perfect mechanics. I see too many foreigners in major events try to execute a strategically better build but ultimately lose the game because of undeveloped mechanics. A match that comes to mind is Flash vs Bly from the most recent MLG. He seemed to be one of the few players that tournament who understood the strategic value of vipers in ZvT and showcased their strength against flash. But he lost anyways because of poor control of ultras and bad macro.
Wasn't there also a game from Bly (against Flash on Akilon) where he refused to build vipers when that could have won the game ten minutes earlier? That was painful.
|
On April 05 2013 06:55 Nachtwind wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 06:51 furerkip wrote:
Dude, I think viewers don't care anymore.
Like in WoL, the game was kinda lame and there wasn't that much action going on at once; thus, I think we needed an outlet for cheering because of how the game was being progressed (not much action throughout, when there was action it was the end of a game), so we needed foreigners to do well for our "stories" (big bad Koreans stopping foreigners, Stephano/Naniwa/etc. are our only hope). Thus it was not very fun to watch, but still cool to see that our foreigners weren't totally being devastated if one of them got to top 8 or something.
But after seeing the most recent MLG, there was so much action, it was just ridiculously awesome. Like, Polt's, Flash's, Life's, Innovation's, and Leenock's multitask was just so incredible I loved watching them play. The games are definitely worth watching, and the "story" (at least to me, but I think to many others as well) becomes irrelevant because I'm watching good games that keep me excited through out.
I think as viewers, we are evolving from liking specific players for "stories" to liking specific players for "content," (If you want proof, look at the viewership of the latest MLG vs. most other MLGs and DHs) and I think Korean players have the most to offer in that respect.
As viewers, our only concern is action; nothing less, nothing more. If we don't get the action from the games we play, we'll get it from stories that we make up about Koreans and foreigners. But we don't have to do that anymore; the action can take place entirely in the game. You using many times the word "we". I don´t have the same opinion then you.
Why exactly? I mean, what's the purpose of having a league of only foreigners? Can it produce games just as exciting if not more so than Koreans, and just as often as Koreans? Is it fun to watch your favorite player trying to play long,boring, macro games against another player who won't decline the boring aspect?
Wouldn't you rather see a player who can:
-attack
-build up another army while he's attacking so he's never behind after an engagement
-defend drops perfectly
-all at same time
So the question I'm posing to you is (of course under the assumption foreigners produce worse games than Koreans), why do you prefer a "story" in a tournament that only lasts a few days, as compared to a brilliant series? In league play, foreigners could beat Koreans because they can prepare for them (for example, Tzain in TSL3), so I think a few foreigners could survive that and I could understand liking foreigners there over Koreans because they actually have a fighting chance.
But in 3 day tournaments, I don't understand why you'd want to watch foreigners play against Koreans when Koreans demolish then, rather than Koreans vs Koreans where the intensity is just amazing to watch?
|
On April 05 2013 07:12 EpiK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 06:02 Qwyn wrote:On April 05 2013 05:37 EpiK wrote:
I think the skill gap is mainly because of practice regimen/structure. If you watch a korean vs. foreigner match, the korean progamer usually wins with better mechanics and more precise timings. It's very rarely because the Korean outsmarts the foreigner. As for the foreigner, I can't think of the number of times I've seen someone try something that is conceptually sound, but the execution was just poor because of lackluster mechanics.
Mechanics and precise timings can be only be honed with focused practice. There's no trick to it. A coach and team house can help with that because they won't let their players focus split among many things like appeasing fans with non-serious streamed games and trying to help esports grow with silly non-competitive events and talks with theorycraft. The korean team house structure probably allows players to have that tunnel focus on just getting the mechanics down-pat and improving as a player, and not letting them worry about other shit like entertaining fans or the future of esports. You're spot on. If foreigners want to keep up, they've got to start focusing more on mechanics. That's all there is to it. StarCraft is not a game of "strategy...," it's a game of execution. I wouldn't say that's all there is to it. I'm just saying that's the first step. Starcraft IS a game of strategy, but the strategic play comes after mastering the mechanics. I'd call the builds a player chooses and the meta-game shifts you see between 2 code s players that know each others' play styles well, pure strategy. But that stage of play only comes with a perfect mechanics. I see too many foreigners in major events try to execute a strategically better build but ultimately lose the game because of undeveloped mechanics. A match that comes to mind is Flash vs Bly from the most recent MLG. He seemed to be one of the few players that tournament who understood the strategic value of vipers in ZvT and showcased their strength against flash. But he lost anyways because of poor control of ultras and bad macro.
given both player with flash level micro and macro mechanics on control and execution, there is still one thing that they need to give a good game to the likes of flash, which is the ability to make good split decisions under pressure. and even when someone who have all the above working for them, it is still not enough, there is something call game sense, maybe the term game sense is little vague, but let me explain, game sense is the ability for a player to predict what will happen with very limited information or lack of some information that his opponent is showing him.(namely logical deduction, by thinking about what the other guy is thinking)
If people wants to have a better understanding on what is talent in sc2, plz read http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=405029
in savior's mind, every game, he plays 2 versions simultaneously, one from his perspective, and one from his opponent's perspective, and he does things to lure or force his opponent into his vision of how the game should be played out both him and his opponent. He literally controls his opponent's mind when he plays, hence his nick name the maestro.
That is talent.
|
On April 05 2013 07:19 furerkip wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 06:55 Nachtwind wrote:On April 05 2013 06:51 furerkip wrote:
Dude, I think viewers don't care anymore.
Like in WoL, the game was kinda lame and there wasn't that much action going on at once; thus, I think we needed an outlet for cheering because of how the game was being progressed (not much action throughout, when there was action it was the end of a game), so we needed foreigners to do well for our "stories" (big bad Koreans stopping foreigners, Stephano/Naniwa/etc. are our only hope). Thus it was not very fun to watch, but still cool to see that our foreigners weren't totally being devastated if one of them got to top 8 or something.
But after seeing the most recent MLG, there was so much action, it was just ridiculously awesome. Like, Polt's, Flash's, Life's, Innovation's, and Leenock's multitask was just so incredible I loved watching them play. The games are definitely worth watching, and the "story" (at least to me, but I think to many others as well) becomes irrelevant because I'm watching good games that keep me excited through out.
I think as viewers, we are evolving from liking specific players for "stories" to liking specific players for "content," (If you want proof, look at the viewership of the latest MLG vs. most other MLGs and DHs) and I think Korean players have the most to offer in that respect.
As viewers, our only concern is action; nothing less, nothing more. If we don't get the action from the games we play, we'll get it from stories that we make up about Koreans and foreigners. But we don't have to do that anymore; the action can take place entirely in the game. You using many times the word "we". I don´t have the same opinion then you. Why exactly? I mean, what's the purpose of having a league of only foreigners? Can it produce games just as exciting if not more so than Koreans, and just as often as Koreans? Is it fun to watch your favorite player trying to play long,boring, macro games against another player who won't decline the boring aspect? Wouldn't you rather see a player who can: -attack -build up another army while he's attacking so he's never behind after an engagement -defend drops perfectly -all at same time So the question I'm posing to you is (of course under the assumption foreigners produce worse games than Koreans), why do you prefer a "story" in a tournament that only lasts a few days, as compared to a brilliant series? In league play, foreigners could beat Koreans because they can prepare for them (for example, Tzain in TSL3), so I think a few foreigners could survive that and I could understand liking foreigners there over Koreans because they actually have a fighting chance. But in 3 day tournaments, I don't understand why you'd want to watch foreigners play against Koreans when Koreans demolish then, rather than Koreans vs Koreans where the intensity is just amazing to watch?
WCS Europe was one of, if not the, biggest tournament of 2012.
This isn't about not wanting to watch Koreans. It's about having multiple tournaments that people outside of Korea can actually aim for, so that SC2 doesn't devolve back into the BW scene where it was Korea or nothing at all.
|
On April 04 2013 17:46 Emix_Squall wrote:
How many of these threads do we have? What's new about this one? I want to create a thread too should I take the same old topic and be the 57673th to right something about it?
Sorry but nothing new here ... some people want the best games, others want to watch players they can relate to more easily ... enough said!
And if you're me, who cares it's all Starcraft.
|
On April 05 2013 07:19 furerkip wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 06:55 Nachtwind wrote:On April 05 2013 06:51 furerkip wrote:
Dude, I think viewers don't care anymore.
Like in WoL, the game was kinda lame and there wasn't that much action going on at once; thus, I think we needed an outlet for cheering because of how the game was being progressed (not much action throughout, when there was action it was the end of a game), so we needed foreigners to do well for our "stories" (big bad Koreans stopping foreigners, Stephano/Naniwa/etc. are our only hope). Thus it was not very fun to watch, but still cool to see that our foreigners weren't totally being devastated if one of them got to top 8 or something.
But after seeing the most recent MLG, there was so much action, it was just ridiculously awesome. Like, Polt's, Flash's, Life's, Innovation's, and Leenock's multitask was just so incredible I loved watching them play. The games are definitely worth watching, and the "story" (at least to me, but I think to many others as well) becomes irrelevant because I'm watching good games that keep me excited through out.
I think as viewers, we are evolving from liking specific players for "stories" to liking specific players for "content," (If you want proof, look at the viewership of the latest MLG vs. most other MLGs and DHs) and I think Korean players have the most to offer in that respect.
As viewers, our only concern is action; nothing less, nothing more. If we don't get the action from the games we play, we'll get it from stories that we make up about Koreans and foreigners. But we don't have to do that anymore; the action can take place entirely in the game. You using many times the word "we". I don´t have the same opinion then you. Why exactly? I mean, what's the purpose of having a league of only foreigners? Can it produce games just as exciting if not more so than Koreans, and just as often as Koreans? Is it fun to watch your favorite player trying to play long,boring, macro games against another player who won't decline the boring aspect? Wouldn't you rather see a player who can: -attack -build up another army while he's attacking so he's never behind after an engagement -defend drops perfectly -all at same time So the question I'm posing to you is (of course under the assumption foreigners produce worse games than Koreans), why do you prefer a "story" in a tournament that only lasts a few days, as compared to a brilliant series? In league play, foreigners could beat Koreans because they can prepare for them (for example, Tzain in TSL3), so I think a few foreigners could survive that and I could understand liking foreigners there over Koreans because they actually have a fighting chance. But in 3 day tournaments, I don't understand why you'd want to watch foreigners play against Koreans when Koreans demolish then, rather than Koreans vs Koreans where the intensity is just amazing to watch?
It´s a preference thing. You want content in form of quality at any cost i like the underdog story more. There is nothing more to it.
|
On April 05 2013 06:51 furerkip wrote:
I think as viewers, we are evolving from liking specific players for "stories" to liking specific players for "content," (If you want proof, look at the viewership of the latest MLG vs. most other MLGs and DHs) and I think Korean players have the most to offer in that respect.
As viewers, our only concern is action; nothing less, nothing more. If we don't get the action from the games we play, we'll get it from stories that we make up about Koreans and foreigners. But we don't have to do that anymore; the action can take place entirely in the game.
It's really a matter of preference. For more casual viewers though (fans who just watch and don't play), I can easily see them being more interested in storylines rather than just game content.
|
speaking of game quality vs story,
i think yellow vs boxer will get more viewers than flash vs life, from koreans.
|
So say I'm one of those people that only likes to watch the best of the best, and I believe Korea houses the best. Could I still watch Korean WCS events, and thus watch the best of the best but still have a thread to gripe in? If so, cool.
The irony is, if you allow Koreans to split up, you're still diluting the competition and will never be seeing the best of the best in any region... You would have to wait till the "global" finals to even have a shot at watching the best compete against each other. If you make the regions have anything to do with its name, say maybe they have maybe visited the region once in their life, then the best players will always be playing in Korea for the foreseeable future, sans maybe stephano. You actually give national scenes a chance to grow. The only potential loser is someone running a tournament that is now quivering over how many thousands he's going to make. Sorry if I'm lacking sympathy over that concern.
|
I would only want to see foreigners playing against koreans if they were actually good enough to be placed there, not just cuz they got seeding for free... Tournaments should be about who's the best.
|
All the popular games (popular among many countries), be it football, basketball or league of legend for esport are games were you don't only see the best players in the world compete but also the best players from your region. This makes the games very enjoyable because you can relate to the team and you don't need to see the best play all the time to enjoy the game (people never needed to see the best play to enjoy it, they needed to see the relatively best play, but it was not in the internet worldwide streaming era). The result is a game sustainable for many players and not only the very best in the world.
The thing is SC2 is a solo game which means that relating to the home player is more difficult... Maybe, solo games are meant to be played by only the very best...
|
On April 05 2013 08:06 playa wrote:
So say I'm one of those people that only likes to watch the best of the best, and I believe Korea houses the best. Could I still watch Korean WCS events, and thus watch the best of the best but still have a thread to gripe in? If so, cool.
The irony is, if you allow Koreans to split up, you're still diluting the competition and will never be seeing the best of the best in any region... You would have to wait till the "global" finals to even have a shot at watching the best compete against each other. If you make the regions have anything to do with its name, say maybe they have maybe visited the region once in their life, then the best players will always be playing in Korea for the foreseeable future, sans maybe stephano. You actually give national scenes a chance to grow. The only potential loser is someone running a tournament that is now quivering over how many thousands he's going to make. Sorry if I'm lacking sympathy over that concern.
You probably should be concerned over that because that is the reason that tournaments exist and if they realize there bottom line is affected they would have to make cuts and none of those cuts would be good for the players.
|
On April 05 2013 08:23 Thurken wrote:
All the popular games (popular among many countries), be it football, basketball or league of legend for esport are games were you don't only see the best players in the world compete but also the best players from your region. This makes the games very enjoyable because you can relate to the team and you don't need to see the best play all the time to enjoy the game (people never needed to see the best play to enjoy it, they needed to see the relatively best play, but it was not in the internet worldwide streaming era). The result is a game sustainable for many players and not only the very best in the world.
The thing is SC2 is a solo game which means that relating to the home player is more difficult... Maybe, solo games are meant to be played by only the very best...
Well said, most people want to watch both local talent and the very best. This provides that for them.
|
Canada11349 Posts
@ furerkip
Why watch college ball of anything? Or state ball. Why do Canadians watch the CFL when they could just watch NFL? There should only be NHL, NFL, and FIFA World Cups. Everything else should fold because they don't have the top players so screw them.
Obviously the top league is going to draw the most eyes of any sport. But that doesn't mean no-one will watch regional leagues. It's more niche, but there is a place for it. But the lower tiers are pretty important for feeding into top the top leagues.
I think there is a place for regional starcraft in North America. Will it be as big as the GSL? Probably not and it shouldn't expect to be or try to spend that sort of money. But once the glut of international tournies pulling in Koreans burns out, we'll be left with the just the big tourneys. I think into that space, a solid regional league could start up- especially if there the drop in tourneys actually produces a few gaps when Starcraft 2 is not playing competively.
|
esports is not regular sports for the nth time
|
On April 05 2013 09:26 Falling wrote:
@ furerkip
Why watch college ball of anything? Or state ball. Why do Canadians watch the CFL when they could just watch NFL? There should only be NHL, NFL, and FIFA World Cups. Everything else should fold because they don't have the top players so screw them.
Obviously the top league is going to draw the most eyes of any sport. But that doesn't mean no-one will watch regional leagues. It's more niche, but there is a place for it. But the lower tiers are pretty important for feeding into top the top leagues.
I think there is a place for regional starcraft in North America. Will it be as big as the GSL? Probably not and it shouldn't expect to be or try to spend that sort of money. But once the glut of international tournies pulling in Koreans burns out, we'll be left with the just the big tourneys. I think into that space, a solid regional league could start up- especially if there the drop in tourneys actually produces a few gaps when Starcraft 2 is not playing competively.
I agree, and I'm excited to see "GSL NA", i.e. WCS NA.
The major misstep they've made I think though, is that it's not a 100% offline tournament. Events like NASL are fine, but one of the big reasons I like GSL is seeing the players and their reactions. It adds a lot of weight to the games you're watching. Add interviews on top of that, and you've got a great viewing experience and it's much easier to get attached to the players.
Watching from replays is boring, and Blizzard really needs to step up next season and get a studio and make it 100% offline. It may be difficult form NA players initially with regards to travel, but if it's successful enough and has viability long term, I expect that the major teams will move their bases to wherever the tournament is held, and that city will become the e-sports 'mecca' of NA. As a side-effect of a 100% offline tournament, it should limit the number of Koreans willing to take part, which I believe is necessary for a more local scene to survive.
|
People need to calm down. I've said this numerous time. People have so much hate for the NA/EU scene. Personally, I stop watching sc2 when its just Koreans, (unless Hero, Sage, MKP are involved) because they have no emotion. Literally they seem like robots to me. I watch for the story, for the excitement of that. When Vibe beat Flying at MLG (forget which one) pr when Scarlett came out of nowhere or when Idra 2-0 RoRo at WCS. Those are exciting. When X Korean, plays Y Korean, its not exciting to me.
Before I get flamed for not wanting the best games, that's not it, its just for me I watch Esports not for the game, but for the entirety. The story behind the games and the games.
So yea if all regions were equally good at sc2, then sure that's the ideal situation. But its not. WCS is providing a way for NON-Koreans to play in tournaments where they won't get rofl stomped immediately. And yes I am one of the people who believes that the level of play from NA/EU will be better.
People need to stop the hate and just admit that this is good for esports, i know that's hard for so many people to do because Blizzard is the one organizing this, but this is growth. And that's what everyone wants right?
and before everyone jumps on the bandwagon of the MC whine/complaining, the whole system hasn't happened yet and the only tournament that has started is the GSL. CHill and wait for the season to fully kick in.
|
Jesus f:ing christ is regional pride completely forbidden in the starcraft community? The entire competitive fighting game scene is kept alive thanks to it. This community would be so much better if it loosened its butthole a little.
Warning time! HO!
User was warned for martyring
|
Agreed! Watching low level play is for chumps. That's why I really wish the GSL would only broadcast the finals and not waste time with all those others worthless players. /Sarcasm
No one is taking money away from the Koreans. The money for the WCS is about Blizzards promoting their product which they have decided is best done by running leagues in each region.
|
Don't think that WCS is a problem, but I agree that I usually get bored as shit watching foreigners play each other. I just relate to the Koreans a lot more for some reason. There is a few foreigners I like watching, but mostly it's just "bleh" for me.
But I think WCS will help increase the overall skill level of the foreign scene and therefore make foreigner games more exciting. I'll still probably prefer the "robot" Korean players over the self entitled foreigners though, lol.
|
For me personally, it's much easier to root for a player when I feel like I know a little bit about them, their personality, shit like that. Because of this, it's much easier to root for players on teams like Liquid, EG, and ROOT.
I'm not even sure if it's a foreigner vs korean thing, because I love watching players like Hero and MKP who seem like they have a personality.
|
The best players should play, period. Why should the color of someone's skin or the language they speak dictate whether we like their sc2 play or not. It makes no sense.... If foeigners want to win tournaments or even qualify them they should practice like Koreans simple as that. As a community we shouldn't pander to inferiority, it lowers the overall quality of competition
|
On April 05 2013 10:47 Ravensong170 wrote:
People need to calm down. I've said this numerous time. People have so much hate for the NA/EU scene. Personally, I stop watching sc2 when its just Koreans, (unless Hero, Sage, MKP are involved) because they have no emotion. Literally they seem like robots to me. I watch for the story, for the excitement of that. When Vibe beat Flying at MLG (forget which one) pr when Scarlett came out of nowhere or when Idra 2-0 RoRo at WCS. Those are exciting. When X Korean, plays Y Korean, its not exciting to me.
Before I get flamed for not wanting the best games, that's not it, its just for me I watch Esports not for the game, but for the entirety. The story behind the games and the games.
So yea if all regions were equally good at sc2, then sure that's the ideal situation. But its not. WCS is providing a way for NON-Koreans to play in tournaments where they won't get rofl stomped immediately. And yes I am one of the people who believes that the level of play from NA/EU will be better.
People need to stop the hate and just admit that this is good for esports, i know that's hard for so many people to do because Blizzard is the one organizing this, but this is growth. And that's what everyone wants right?
and before everyone jumps on the bandwagon of the MC whine/complaining, the whole system hasn't happened yet and the only tournament that has started is the GSL. CHill and wait for the season to fully kick in.
Guys like White Ra, Stephano, Idra, Incontrol, Naniwa, Huk, Grubby, Demuslim and Catz might have personality sure.
but there's no way you can argue that players like Kas, Happy, Sase, Nerchio, Snute, Lucifron, Vibe, Vortix, Sen, Morrow, Thorzain are these big time personalities because they're not, they're just as faceless and boring as people as any Koreans are.
A lot of, if not the majority of top foreign players are equally are dull as personalities as the Alive's, Sniper's and Puma's of this world.
Also guys like MC, Mkp, Polt, Parting, Mvp, DRG, Nestea, Violet and others have a lot of personality/story to them.
|
On April 05 2013 09:26 Falling wrote:
@ furerkip
Why watch college ball of anything? Or state ball. Why do Canadians watch the CFL when they could just watch NFL? There should only be NHL, NFL, and FIFA World Cups. Everything else should fold because they don't have the top players so screw them.
Okay, so it seems I misunderstood what the argument was about.
I didn't intend to say that region-locked cups aren't a good idea. My only concern was for bigger leagues and tournaments; the ones that most people watch right now.
It's probably not far-fetched to say that people would want to watch region-locked cups; I myself only watch MLGs and some glimpses of DreamHack when I can because it's difficult to stay up on a school night just to watch starcraft (PL and GSL). During those tournaments, however, I feel like I would prefer tremendously the option of seeing Life in action, or Flash putting his god skills to the test. These are are the kinds of things I want to see, because I don't often get the chance to see brilliant play. However, I'd probably watch the region-locked cups because of this since it'd be really easy for me to watch at least semi-good players play.
I think what I'm saying is, I don't dislike region-locked cups, I just don't want major leagues to keep out Koreans. If you're just talking about region-locked cups, I'm completely cool with them.
|
On April 05 2013 11:40 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 10:47 Ravensong170 wrote:
People need to calm down. I've said this numerous time. People have so much hate for the NA/EU scene. Personally, I stop watching sc2 when its just Koreans, (unless Hero, Sage, MKP are involved) because they have no emotion. Literally they seem like robots to me. I watch for the story, for the excitement of that. When Vibe beat Flying at MLG (forget which one) pr when Scarlett came out of nowhere or when Idra 2-0 RoRo at WCS. Those are exciting. When X Korean, plays Y Korean, its not exciting to me.
Before I get flamed for not wanting the best games, that's not it, its just for me I watch Esports not for the game, but for the entirety. The story behind the games and the games.
So yea if all regions were equally good at sc2, then sure that's the ideal situation. But its not. WCS is providing a way for NON-Koreans to play in tournaments where they won't get rofl stomped immediately. And yes I am one of the people who believes that the level of play from NA/EU will be better.
People need to stop the hate and just admit that this is good for esports, i know that's hard for so many people to do because Blizzard is the one organizing this, but this is growth. And that's what everyone wants right?
and before everyone jumps on the bandwagon of the MC whine/complaining, the whole system hasn't happened yet and the only tournament that has started is the GSL. CHill and wait for the season to fully kick in. Guys like White Ra, Stephano, Idra, Incontrol, Naniwa, Huk, Grubby, Demuslim and Catz might have personality sure. but there's no way you can argue that players like Kas, Happy, Sase, Nerchio, Snute, Lucifron, Vibe, Vortix, Sen, Morrow, Thorzain are these big time personalities because they're not, they're just as faceless and boring as people as any Koreans are. A lot of, if not the majority of top foreign players are equally are dull as personalities as the Alive's, Sniper's and Puma's of this world. Also guys like MC, Mkp, Polt, Parting, Mvp, DRG, Nestea, Violet and others have a lot of personality/story to them.
The difference between the boring Koreans and the boring Foreigners is that most foreigners still speak English, which means you can understand them.
It may seem like a small thing, but there's a large jump between watching a good player play, and watching a good player who you've watched commentate his ladder streaming.
|
On April 05 2013 11:45 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 11:40 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On April 05 2013 10:47 Ravensong170 wrote:
People need to calm down. I've said this numerous time. People have so much hate for the NA/EU scene. Personally, I stop watching sc2 when its just Koreans, (unless Hero, Sage, MKP are involved) because they have no emotion. Literally they seem like robots to me. I watch for the story, for the excitement of that. When Vibe beat Flying at MLG (forget which one) pr when Scarlett came out of nowhere or when Idra 2-0 RoRo at WCS. Those are exciting. When X Korean, plays Y Korean, its not exciting to me.
Before I get flamed for not wanting the best games, that's not it, its just for me I watch Esports not for the game, but for the entirety. The story behind the games and the games.
So yea if all regions were equally good at sc2, then sure that's the ideal situation. But its not. WCS is providing a way for NON-Koreans to play in tournaments where they won't get rofl stomped immediately. And yes I am one of the people who believes that the level of play from NA/EU will be better.
People need to stop the hate and just admit that this is good for esports, i know that's hard for so many people to do because Blizzard is the one organizing this, but this is growth. And that's what everyone wants right?
and before everyone jumps on the bandwagon of the MC whine/complaining, the whole system hasn't happened yet and the only tournament that has started is the GSL. CHill and wait for the season to fully kick in. Guys like White Ra, Stephano, Idra, Incontrol, Naniwa, Huk, Grubby, Demuslim and Catz might have personality sure. but there's no way you can argue that players like Kas, Happy, Sase, Nerchio, Snute, Lucifron, Vibe, Vortix, Sen, Morrow, Thorzain are these big time personalities because they're not, they're just as faceless and boring as people as any Koreans are. A lot of, if not the majority of top foreign players are equally are dull as personalities as the Alive's, Sniper's and Puma's of this world. Also guys like MC, Mkp, Polt, Parting, Mvp, DRG, Nestea, Violet and others have a lot of personality/story to them. The difference between the boring Koreans and the boring Foreigners is that most foreigners still speak English, which means you can understand them. It may seem like a small thing, but there's a large jump between watching a good player play, and watching a good player who you've watched commentate his ladder streaming.
And what about guys like Lucifron, Vortix, Sen, Snute etc.. who pretty much only play the game, very minimal community interaction at all?
|
On April 05 2013 11:49 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 11:45 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 05 2013 11:40 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On April 05 2013 10:47 Ravensong170 wrote:
People need to calm down. I've said this numerous time. People have so much hate for the NA/EU scene. Personally, I stop watching sc2 when its just Koreans, (unless Hero, Sage, MKP are involved) because they have no emotion. Literally they seem like robots to me. I watch for the story, for the excitement of that. When Vibe beat Flying at MLG (forget which one) pr when Scarlett came out of nowhere or when Idra 2-0 RoRo at WCS. Those are exciting. When X Korean, plays Y Korean, its not exciting to me.
Before I get flamed for not wanting the best games, that's not it, its just for me I watch Esports not for the game, but for the entirety. The story behind the games and the games.
So yea if all regions were equally good at sc2, then sure that's the ideal situation. But its not. WCS is providing a way for NON-Koreans to play in tournaments where they won't get rofl stomped immediately. And yes I am one of the people who believes that the level of play from NA/EU will be better.
People need to stop the hate and just admit that this is good for esports, i know that's hard for so many people to do because Blizzard is the one organizing this, but this is growth. And that's what everyone wants right?
and before everyone jumps on the bandwagon of the MC whine/complaining, the whole system hasn't happened yet and the only tournament that has started is the GSL. CHill and wait for the season to fully kick in. Guys like White Ra, Stephano, Idra, Incontrol, Naniwa, Huk, Grubby, Demuslim and Catz might have personality sure. but there's no way you can argue that players like Kas, Happy, Sase, Nerchio, Snute, Lucifron, Vibe, Vortix, Sen, Morrow, Thorzain are these big time personalities because they're not, they're just as faceless and boring as people as any Koreans are. A lot of, if not the majority of top foreign players are equally are dull as personalities as the Alive's, Sniper's and Puma's of this world. Also guys like MC, Mkp, Polt, Parting, Mvp, DRG, Nestea, Violet and others have a lot of personality/story to them. The difference between the boring Koreans and the boring Foreigners is that most foreigners still speak English, which means you can understand them. It may seem like a small thing, but there's a large jump between watching a good player play, and watching a good player who you've watched commentate his ladder streaming. And what about guys like Lucifron, Vortix, Sen, Snute etc.. who pretty much only play the game, very minimal community interaction at all?
Snute is on TL, so he automatically gets a huge following. Lucifron and Vortix basically rely on EU tournament exposure, plus a fairly big storyline from WCS EU. Sen has just been around for a long time...and Day9 cursed him.
|
I never understood why the WCS world finals would only have like a 16 man bracket. I mean, yeah it is a million dollar tournament but the fact that there is such a strict limit to the number of players makes it difficult to distribute an appropriate proportion of spots for the finals to each respected region.
While I do not agree that the sample sizes from each region should be similar/same. Rather, I think that there should be a larger sample size of players to play around with in theory to test for future events, using accounting and such for plane tickets, expenses, etc.I, personally would have 32 go to the world finals, thus providing the scene as well as Blizzard and potential sponsors or industries looking to invest in esports a sizable tournament (the size of the last MLG), with the best players from everywhere in the world, all regions represented.
Now to go about how players should be able to qualify, the three regional finals is a good way to go about it, though I feel like there is way too much time between the first final where a race's results may or may not hinder on a future patch, or a player is doing well early on in the metagame, and then provides mediocre games months later in the overall finals. If only there was a sustainable way of having a more compact schedule for the tournaments.
Having the top three from each respective qualifier tournament is pretty much a given, but also having a wildcard standing board for the final 5 spots, based off of a certain player's results in each regional final. Now getting there is the confusing part, because they are using MLG, ESL, and GSL as mediums for the regional final qualifiers. It would work for MLG and ESL if they were to be able to restrict Korean players from joining the leagues, which is actually unfair by most people's standards. But instead, the large majority of Korean players are left with the short end of the stick because of the way the GSL works, having a sort of Major/Minor league system with Code S and Code A. But, since the GSL qualifications only include Code S, many players feel left out when they can't get the opportunity to play in Code S. Having a league like the NASL or tournament circuits like Dreamhack would be more ideal because players would have equal opportunity to test their talent against the best players and make a run at a spot at a live tournament or in group stages and a playoff bracket.
There is no way to be ethical to everyone here when there is limited resources as well as such an imbalance of talent across the board in Starcraft II.
|
On April 05 2013 11:54 vultdylan wrote:
I never understood why the WCS world finals would only have like a 16 man bracket. I mean, yeah it is a million dollar tournament but the fact that there is such a strict limit to the number of players makes it difficult to distribute an appropriate proportion of spots for the finals to each respected region.
You get a much better story and can broadcast every game if you have only 16 players. I really like how the last MLG was just 32 players (would have been even better with group play into single elimination). Way better than the awful bloated open brackets of Dreamhack and previous MLG's.
|
On April 05 2013 11:51 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 11:49 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On April 05 2013 11:45 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 05 2013 11:40 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On April 05 2013 10:47 Ravensong170 wrote:
People need to calm down. I've said this numerous time. People have so much hate for the NA/EU scene. Personally, I stop watching sc2 when its just Koreans, (unless Hero, Sage, MKP are involved) because they have no emotion. Literally they seem like robots to me. I watch for the story, for the excitement of that. When Vibe beat Flying at MLG (forget which one) pr when Scarlett came out of nowhere or when Idra 2-0 RoRo at WCS. Those are exciting. When X Korean, plays Y Korean, its not exciting to me.
Before I get flamed for not wanting the best games, that's not it, its just for me I watch Esports not for the game, but for the entirety. The story behind the games and the games.
So yea if all regions were equally good at sc2, then sure that's the ideal situation. But its not. WCS is providing a way for NON-Koreans to play in tournaments where they won't get rofl stomped immediately. And yes I am one of the people who believes that the level of play from NA/EU will be better.
People need to stop the hate and just admit that this is good for esports, i know that's hard for so many people to do because Blizzard is the one organizing this, but this is growth. And that's what everyone wants right?
and before everyone jumps on the bandwagon of the MC whine/complaining, the whole system hasn't happened yet and the only tournament that has started is the GSL. CHill and wait for the season to fully kick in. Guys like White Ra, Stephano, Idra, Incontrol, Naniwa, Huk, Grubby, Demuslim and Catz might have personality sure. but there's no way you can argue that players like Kas, Happy, Sase, Nerchio, Snute, Lucifron, Vibe, Vortix, Sen, Morrow, Thorzain are these big time personalities because they're not, they're just as faceless and boring as people as any Koreans are. A lot of, if not the majority of top foreign players are equally are dull as personalities as the Alive's, Sniper's and Puma's of this world. Also guys like MC, Mkp, Polt, Parting, Mvp, DRG, Nestea, Violet and others have a lot of personality/story to them. The difference between the boring Koreans and the boring Foreigners is that most foreigners still speak English, which means you can understand them. It may seem like a small thing, but there's a large jump between watching a good player play, and watching a good player who you've watched commentate his ladder streaming. And what about guys like Lucifron, Vortix, Sen, Snute etc.. who pretty much only play the game, very minimal community interaction at all? Snute is on TL, so he automatically gets a huge following. Lucifron and Vortix basically rely on EU tournament exposure, plus a fairly big storyline from WCS EU. Sen has just been around for a long time...and Day9 cursed him.
None of that is personality, it's a story (sort of) and fuck loads of Koreans have those.
|
On April 05 2013 11:45 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 11:40 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On April 05 2013 10:47 Ravensong170 wrote:
People need to calm down. I've said this numerous time. People have so much hate for the NA/EU scene. Personally, I stop watching sc2 when its just Koreans, (unless Hero, Sage, MKP are involved) because they have no emotion. Literally they seem like robots to me. I watch for the story, for the excitement of that. When Vibe beat Flying at MLG (forget which one) pr when Scarlett came out of nowhere or when Idra 2-0 RoRo at WCS. Those are exciting. When X Korean, plays Y Korean, its not exciting to me.
Before I get flamed for not wanting the best games, that's not it, its just for me I watch Esports not for the game, but for the entirety. The story behind the games and the games.
So yea if all regions were equally good at sc2, then sure that's the ideal situation. But its not. WCS is providing a way for NON-Koreans to play in tournaments where they won't get rofl stomped immediately. And yes I am one of the people who believes that the level of play from NA/EU will be better.
People need to stop the hate and just admit that this is good for esports, i know that's hard for so many people to do because Blizzard is the one organizing this, but this is growth. And that's what everyone wants right?
and before everyone jumps on the bandwagon of the MC whine/complaining, the whole system hasn't happened yet and the only tournament that has started is the GSL. CHill and wait for the season to fully kick in. Guys like White Ra, Stephano, Idra, Incontrol, Naniwa, Huk, Grubby, Demuslim and Catz might have personality sure. but there's no way you can argue that players like Kas, Happy, Sase, Nerchio, Snute, Lucifron, Vibe, Vortix, Sen, Morrow, Thorzain are these big time personalities because they're not, they're just as faceless and boring as people as any Koreans are. A lot of, if not the majority of top foreign players are equally are dull as personalities as the Alive's, Sniper's and Puma's of this world. Also guys like MC, Mkp, Polt, Parting, Mvp, DRG, Nestea, Violet and others have a lot of personality/story to them. The difference between the boring Koreans and the boring Foreigners is that most foreigners still speak English, which means you can understand them.It may seem like a small thing, but there's a large jump between watching a good player play, and watching a good player who you've watched commentate his ladder streaming.
Oh, and the boring Koreans work 10x as hard and are the far better players. But seems like people are just fine with glorifying lazy foreigners. I mean, fuck hard work, right?
|
On April 05 2013 12:07 waylander_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 11:45 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 05 2013 11:40 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On April 05 2013 10:47 Ravensong170 wrote:
People need to calm down. I've said this numerous time. People have so much hate for the NA/EU scene. Personally, I stop watching sc2 when its just Koreans, (unless Hero, Sage, MKP are involved) because they have no emotion. Literally they seem like robots to me. I watch for the story, for the excitement of that. When Vibe beat Flying at MLG (forget which one) pr when Scarlett came out of nowhere or when Idra 2-0 RoRo at WCS. Those are exciting. When X Korean, plays Y Korean, its not exciting to me.
Before I get flamed for not wanting the best games, that's not it, its just for me I watch Esports not for the game, but for the entirety. The story behind the games and the games.
So yea if all regions were equally good at sc2, then sure that's the ideal situation. But its not. WCS is providing a way for NON-Koreans to play in tournaments where they won't get rofl stomped immediately. And yes I am one of the people who believes that the level of play from NA/EU will be better.
People need to stop the hate and just admit that this is good for esports, i know that's hard for so many people to do because Blizzard is the one organizing this, but this is growth. And that's what everyone wants right?
and before everyone jumps on the bandwagon of the MC whine/complaining, the whole system hasn't happened yet and the only tournament that has started is the GSL. CHill and wait for the season to fully kick in. Guys like White Ra, Stephano, Idra, Incontrol, Naniwa, Huk, Grubby, Demuslim and Catz might have personality sure. but there's no way you can argue that players like Kas, Happy, Sase, Nerchio, Snute, Lucifron, Vibe, Vortix, Sen, Morrow, Thorzain are these big time personalities because they're not, they're just as faceless and boring as people as any Koreans are. A lot of, if not the majority of top foreign players are equally are dull as personalities as the Alive's, Sniper's and Puma's of this world. Also guys like MC, Mkp, Polt, Parting, Mvp, DRG, Nestea, Violet and others have a lot of personality/story to them. The difference between the boring Koreans and the boring Foreigners is that most foreigners still speak English, which means you can understand them.It may seem like a small thing, but there's a large jump between watching a good player play, and watching a good player who you've watched commentate his ladder streaming. Oh, and the boring Koreans work 10x as hard and are the far better players. But seems like people are just fine with glorifying lazy foreigners. I mean, fuck hard work, right?
Im pretty sure both work just as hard... but the atmosphere there is just better, hence deeper talent pool. Its like comparing an average TL reader to an average Bnet forum reader. The TL reader on average will be better because they are exposed to more build/strats/whines/ etc etc and will know more than the bnet forum readers who just complains about random stuff all day. Koreans living in korea will be able to speak with each other for builds and find the best most effective builds while foreigners have only access to replays/ each other hence why they are worse. Cause lets be serious here, if you get cheesed on KR, you learn how to hold it or else you stay in your league without improving. In EU/US, if u get cheesed, average player will blame the game and call the other guy a cheesy #$(*#. Hence in Korea koreans have better practice -> better, while US/EU chobo noob practice = worst.
|
On April 05 2013 12:31 phodacbiet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 12:07 waylander_ wrote:On April 05 2013 11:45 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 05 2013 11:40 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On April 05 2013 10:47 Ravensong170 wrote:
People need to calm down. I've said this numerous time. People have so much hate for the NA/EU scene. Personally, I stop watching sc2 when its just Koreans, (unless Hero, Sage, MKP are involved) because they have no emotion. Literally they seem like robots to me. I watch for the story, for the excitement of that. When Vibe beat Flying at MLG (forget which one) pr when Scarlett came out of nowhere or when Idra 2-0 RoRo at WCS. Those are exciting. When X Korean, plays Y Korean, its not exciting to me.
Before I get flamed for not wanting the best games, that's not it, its just for me I watch Esports not for the game, but for the entirety. The story behind the games and the games.
So yea if all regions were equally good at sc2, then sure that's the ideal situation. But its not. WCS is providing a way for NON-Koreans to play in tournaments where they won't get rofl stomped immediately. And yes I am one of the people who believes that the level of play from NA/EU will be better.
People need to stop the hate and just admit that this is good for esports, i know that's hard for so many people to do because Blizzard is the one organizing this, but this is growth. And that's what everyone wants right?
and before everyone jumps on the bandwagon of the MC whine/complaining, the whole system hasn't happened yet and the only tournament that has started is the GSL. CHill and wait for the season to fully kick in. Guys like White Ra, Stephano, Idra, Incontrol, Naniwa, Huk, Grubby, Demuslim and Catz might have personality sure. but there's no way you can argue that players like Kas, Happy, Sase, Nerchio, Snute, Lucifron, Vibe, Vortix, Sen, Morrow, Thorzain are these big time personalities because they're not, they're just as faceless and boring as people as any Koreans are. A lot of, if not the majority of top foreign players are equally are dull as personalities as the Alive's, Sniper's and Puma's of this world. Also guys like MC, Mkp, Polt, Parting, Mvp, DRG, Nestea, Violet and others have a lot of personality/story to them. The difference between the boring Koreans and the boring Foreigners is that most foreigners still speak English, which means you can understand them.It may seem like a small thing, but there's a large jump between watching a good player play, and watching a good player who you've watched commentate his ladder streaming. Oh, and the boring Koreans work 10x as hard and are the far better players. But seems like people are just fine with glorifying lazy foreigners. I mean, fuck hard work, right? Im pretty sure both work just as hard... but the atmosphere there is just better, hence deeper talent pool. Its like comparing an average TL reader to an average Bnet forum reader. The TL reader on average will be better because they are exposed to more build/strats/whines/ etc etc and will know more than the bnet forum readers who just complains about random stuff all day. Koreans living in korea will be able to speak with each other for builds and find the best most effective builds while foreigners have only access to replays/ each other hence why they are worse. Cause lets be serious here, if you get cheesed on KR, you learn how to hold it or else you stay in your league without improving. In EU/US, if u get cheesed, average player will blame the game and call the other guy a cheesy #$(*#. Hence in Korea koreans have better practice -> better, while US/EU chobo noob practice = worst.
wait... you think foreigners practice remotely as hard as ESF or Kespa players?
|
On April 05 2013 12:37 waylander_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 12:31 phodacbiet wrote:On April 05 2013 12:07 waylander_ wrote:On April 05 2013 11:45 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 05 2013 11:40 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On April 05 2013 10:47 Ravensong170 wrote:
People need to calm down. I've said this numerous time. People have so much hate for the NA/EU scene. Personally, I stop watching sc2 when its just Koreans, (unless Hero, Sage, MKP are involved) because they have no emotion. Literally they seem like robots to me. I watch for the story, for the excitement of that. When Vibe beat Flying at MLG (forget which one) pr when Scarlett came out of nowhere or when Idra 2-0 RoRo at WCS. Those are exciting. When X Korean, plays Y Korean, its not exciting to me.
Before I get flamed for not wanting the best games, that's not it, its just for me I watch Esports not for the game, but for the entirety. The story behind the games and the games.
So yea if all regions were equally good at sc2, then sure that's the ideal situation. But its not. WCS is providing a way for NON-Koreans to play in tournaments where they won't get rofl stomped immediately. And yes I am one of the people who believes that the level of play from NA/EU will be better.
People need to stop the hate and just admit that this is good for esports, i know that's hard for so many people to do because Blizzard is the one organizing this, but this is growth. And that's what everyone wants right?
and before everyone jumps on the bandwagon of the MC whine/complaining, the whole system hasn't happened yet and the only tournament that has started is the GSL. CHill and wait for the season to fully kick in. Guys like White Ra, Stephano, Idra, Incontrol, Naniwa, Huk, Grubby, Demuslim and Catz might have personality sure. but there's no way you can argue that players like Kas, Happy, Sase, Nerchio, Snute, Lucifron, Vibe, Vortix, Sen, Morrow, Thorzain are these big time personalities because they're not, they're just as faceless and boring as people as any Koreans are. A lot of, if not the majority of top foreign players are equally are dull as personalities as the Alive's, Sniper's and Puma's of this world. Also guys like MC, Mkp, Polt, Parting, Mvp, DRG, Nestea, Violet and others have a lot of personality/story to them. The difference between the boring Koreans and the boring Foreigners is that most foreigners still speak English, which means you can understand them.It may seem like a small thing, but there's a large jump between watching a good player play, and watching a good player who you've watched commentate his ladder streaming. Oh, and the boring Koreans work 10x as hard and are the far better players. But seems like people are just fine with glorifying lazy foreigners. I mean, fuck hard work, right? Im pretty sure both work just as hard... but the atmosphere there is just better, hence deeper talent pool. Its like comparing an average TL reader to an average Bnet forum reader. The TL reader on average will be better because they are exposed to more build/strats/whines/ etc etc and will know more than the bnet forum readers who just complains about random stuff all day. Koreans living in korea will be able to speak with each other for builds and find the best most effective builds while foreigners have only access to replays/ each other hence why they are worse. Cause lets be serious here, if you get cheesed on KR, you learn how to hold it or else you stay in your league without improving. In EU/US, if u get cheesed, average player will blame the game and call the other guy a cheesy #$(*#. Hence in Korea koreans have better practice -> better, while US/EU chobo noob practice = worst. wait... you think foreigners practice remotely as hard as ESF or Kespa players?
Just because you dont see them practice doesnt mean they dont.
|
On April 05 2013 12:37 phodacbiet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 12:37 waylander_ wrote:On April 05 2013 12:31 phodacbiet wrote:On April 05 2013 12:07 waylander_ wrote:On April 05 2013 11:45 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 05 2013 11:40 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On April 05 2013 10:47 Ravensong170 wrote:
People need to calm down. I've said this numerous time. People have so much hate for the NA/EU scene. Personally, I stop watching sc2 when its just Koreans, (unless Hero, Sage, MKP are involved) because they have no emotion. Literally they seem like robots to me. I watch for the story, for the excitement of that. When Vibe beat Flying at MLG (forget which one) pr when Scarlett came out of nowhere or when Idra 2-0 RoRo at WCS. Those are exciting. When X Korean, plays Y Korean, its not exciting to me.
Before I get flamed for not wanting the best games, that's not it, its just for me I watch Esports not for the game, but for the entirety. The story behind the games and the games.
So yea if all regions were equally good at sc2, then sure that's the ideal situation. But its not. WCS is providing a way for NON-Koreans to play in tournaments where they won't get rofl stomped immediately. And yes I am one of the people who believes that the level of play from NA/EU will be better.
People need to stop the hate and just admit that this is good for esports, i know that's hard for so many people to do because Blizzard is the one organizing this, but this is growth. And that's what everyone wants right?
and before everyone jumps on the bandwagon of the MC whine/complaining, the whole system hasn't happened yet and the only tournament that has started is the GSL. CHill and wait for the season to fully kick in. Guys like White Ra, Stephano, Idra, Incontrol, Naniwa, Huk, Grubby, Demuslim and Catz might have personality sure. but there's no way you can argue that players like Kas, Happy, Sase, Nerchio, Snute, Lucifron, Vibe, Vortix, Sen, Morrow, Thorzain are these big time personalities because they're not, they're just as faceless and boring as people as any Koreans are. A lot of, if not the majority of top foreign players are equally are dull as personalities as the Alive's, Sniper's and Puma's of this world. Also guys like MC, Mkp, Polt, Parting, Mvp, DRG, Nestea, Violet and others have a lot of personality/story to them. The difference between the boring Koreans and the boring Foreigners is that most foreigners still speak English, which means you can understand them.It may seem like a small thing, but there's a large jump between watching a good player play, and watching a good player who you've watched commentate his ladder streaming. Oh, and the boring Koreans work 10x as hard and are the far better players. But seems like people are just fine with glorifying lazy foreigners. I mean, fuck hard work, right? Im pretty sure both work just as hard... but the atmosphere there is just better, hence deeper talent pool. Its like comparing an average TL reader to an average Bnet forum reader. The TL reader on average will be better because they are exposed to more build/strats/whines/ etc etc and will know more than the bnet forum readers who just complains about random stuff all day. Koreans living in korea will be able to speak with each other for builds and find the best most effective builds while foreigners have only access to replays/ each other hence why they are worse. Cause lets be serious here, if you get cheesed on KR, you learn how to hold it or else you stay in your league without improving. In EU/US, if u get cheesed, average player will blame the game and call the other guy a cheesy #$(*#. Hence in Korea koreans have better practice -> better, while US/EU chobo noob practice = worst. wait... you think foreigners practice remotely as hard as ESF or Kespa players? Just because you dont see them practice doesnt mean they dont.
http://www.sc2ranks.com/ranks/am
http://www.sc2ranks.com/ranks/eu
http://www.sc2ranks.com/ranks/fea
Guess which region has by far the most games played.
|
On April 05 2013 12:37 phodacbiet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 12:37 waylander_ wrote:On April 05 2013 12:31 phodacbiet wrote:On April 05 2013 12:07 waylander_ wrote:On April 05 2013 11:45 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 05 2013 11:40 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On April 05 2013 10:47 Ravensong170 wrote:
People need to calm down. I've said this numerous time. People have so much hate for the NA/EU scene. Personally, I stop watching sc2 when its just Koreans, (unless Hero, Sage, MKP are involved) because they have no emotion. Literally they seem like robots to me. I watch for the story, for the excitement of that. When Vibe beat Flying at MLG (forget which one) pr when Scarlett came out of nowhere or when Idra 2-0 RoRo at WCS. Those are exciting. When X Korean, plays Y Korean, its not exciting to me.
Before I get flamed for not wanting the best games, that's not it, its just for me I watch Esports not for the game, but for the entirety. The story behind the games and the games.
So yea if all regions were equally good at sc2, then sure that's the ideal situation. But its not. WCS is providing a way for NON-Koreans to play in tournaments where they won't get rofl stomped immediately. And yes I am one of the people who believes that the level of play from NA/EU will be better.
People need to stop the hate and just admit that this is good for esports, i know that's hard for so many people to do because Blizzard is the one organizing this, but this is growth. And that's what everyone wants right?
and before everyone jumps on the bandwagon of the MC whine/complaining, the whole system hasn't happened yet and the only tournament that has started is the GSL. CHill and wait for the season to fully kick in. Guys like White Ra, Stephano, Idra, Incontrol, Naniwa, Huk, Grubby, Demuslim and Catz might have personality sure. but there's no way you can argue that players like Kas, Happy, Sase, Nerchio, Snute, Lucifron, Vibe, Vortix, Sen, Morrow, Thorzain are these big time personalities because they're not, they're just as faceless and boring as people as any Koreans are. A lot of, if not the majority of top foreign players are equally are dull as personalities as the Alive's, Sniper's and Puma's of this world. Also guys like MC, Mkp, Polt, Parting, Mvp, DRG, Nestea, Violet and others have a lot of personality/story to them. The difference between the boring Koreans and the boring Foreigners is that most foreigners still speak English, which means you can understand them.It may seem like a small thing, but there's a large jump between watching a good player play, and watching a good player who you've watched commentate his ladder streaming. Oh, and the boring Koreans work 10x as hard and are the far better players. But seems like people are just fine with glorifying lazy foreigners. I mean, fuck hard work, right? Im pretty sure both work just as hard... but the atmosphere there is just better, hence deeper talent pool. Its like comparing an average TL reader to an average Bnet forum reader. The TL reader on average will be better because they are exposed to more build/strats/whines/ etc etc and will know more than the bnet forum readers who just complains about random stuff all day. Koreans living in korea will be able to speak with each other for builds and find the best most effective builds while foreigners have only access to replays/ each other hence why they are worse. Cause lets be serious here, if you get cheesed on KR, you learn how to hold it or else you stay in your league without improving. In EU/US, if u get cheesed, average player will blame the game and call the other guy a cheesy #$(*#. Hence in Korea koreans have better practice -> better, while US/EU chobo noob practice = worst. wait... you think foreigners practice remotely as hard as ESF or Kespa players? Just because you dont see them practice doesnt mean they dont.
It's well established that Koreans practice harder, it's not up for debate. Everyone (except you apparently) knows this.
|
On April 05 2013 12:46 waylander_ wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 05 2013 12:37 phodacbiet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 12:37 waylander_ wrote:On April 05 2013 12:31 phodacbiet wrote:On April 05 2013 12:07 waylander_ wrote:On April 05 2013 11:45 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 05 2013 11:40 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On April 05 2013 10:47 Ravensong170 wrote:
People need to calm down. I've said this numerous time. People have so much hate for the NA/EU scene. Personally, I stop watching sc2 when its just Koreans, (unless Hero, Sage, MKP are involved) because they have no emotion. Literally they seem like robots to me. I watch for the story, for the excitement of that. When Vibe beat Flying at MLG (forget which one) pr when Scarlett came out of nowhere or when Idra 2-0 RoRo at WCS. Those are exciting. When X Korean, plays Y Korean, its not exciting to me.
Before I get flamed for not wanting the best games, that's not it, its just for me I watch Esports not for the game, but for the entirety. The story behind the games and the games.
So yea if all regions were equally good at sc2, then sure that's the ideal situation. But its not. WCS is providing a way for NON-Koreans to play in tournaments where they won't get rofl stomped immediately. And yes I am one of the people who believes that the level of play from NA/EU will be better.
People need to stop the hate and just admit that this is good for esports, i know that's hard for so many people to do because Blizzard is the one organizing this, but this is growth. And that's what everyone wants right?
and before everyone jumps on the bandwagon of the MC whine/complaining, the whole system hasn't happened yet and the only tournament that has started is the GSL. CHill and wait for the season to fully kick in. Guys like White Ra, Stephano, Idra, Incontrol, Naniwa, Huk, Grubby, Demuslim and Catz might have personality sure. but there's no way you can argue that players like Kas, Happy, Sase, Nerchio, Snute, Lucifron, Vibe, Vortix, Sen, Morrow, Thorzain are these big time personalities because they're not, they're just as faceless and boring as people as any Koreans are. A lot of, if not the majority of top foreign players are equally are dull as personalities as the Alive's, Sniper's and Puma's of this world. Also guys like MC, Mkp, Polt, Parting, Mvp, DRG, Nestea, Violet and others have a lot of personality/story to them. The difference between the boring Koreans and the boring Foreigners is that most foreigners still speak English, which means you can understand them.It may seem like a small thing, but there's a large jump between watching a good player play, and watching a good player who you've watched commentate his ladder streaming. Oh, and the boring Koreans work 10x as hard and are the far better players. But seems like people are just fine with glorifying lazy foreigners. I mean, fuck hard work, right? Im pretty sure both work just as hard... but the atmosphere there is just better, hence deeper talent pool. Its like comparing an average TL reader to an average Bnet forum reader. The TL reader on average will be better because they are exposed to more build/strats/whines/ etc etc and will know more than the bnet forum readers who just complains about random stuff all day. Koreans living in korea will be able to speak with each other for builds and find the best most effective builds while foreigners have only access to replays/ each other hence why they are worse. Cause lets be serious here, if you get cheesed on KR, you learn how to hold it or else you stay in your league without improving. In EU/US, if u get cheesed, average player will blame the game and call the other guy a cheesy #$(*#. Hence in Korea koreans have better practice -> better, while US/EU chobo noob practice = worst. wait... you think foreigners practice remotely as hard as ESF or Kespa players? Just because you dont see them practice doesnt mean they dont. Guess which region has by far the most games played.
Total games played means nothing, you want to compare how many games the pro players are playing per day.
Think of it like this, when you want to compare health ailments do you look at total rates of disease or look at how many people are affected per capita.
|
On April 05 2013 13:02 TeslasPigeon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 12:46 waylander_ wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 05 2013 12:37 phodacbiet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 12:37 waylander_ wrote:On April 05 2013 12:31 phodacbiet wrote:On April 05 2013 12:07 waylander_ wrote:On April 05 2013 11:45 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 05 2013 11:40 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On April 05 2013 10:47 Ravensong170 wrote:
People need to calm down. I've said this numerous time. People have so much hate for the NA/EU scene. Personally, I stop watching sc2 when its just Koreans, (unless Hero, Sage, MKP are involved) because they have no emotion. Literally they seem like robots to me. I watch for the story, for the excitement of that. When Vibe beat Flying at MLG (forget which one) pr when Scarlett came out of nowhere or when Idra 2-0 RoRo at WCS. Those are exciting. When X Korean, plays Y Korean, its not exciting to me.
Before I get flamed for not wanting the best games, that's not it, its just for me I watch Esports not for the game, but for the entirety. The story behind the games and the games.
So yea if all regions were equally good at sc2, then sure that's the ideal situation. But its not. WCS is providing a way for NON-Koreans to play in tournaments where they won't get rofl stomped immediately. And yes I am one of the people who believes that the level of play from NA/EU will be better.
People need to stop the hate and just admit that this is good for esports, i know that's hard for so many people to do because Blizzard is the one organizing this, but this is growth. And that's what everyone wants right?
and before everyone jumps on the bandwagon of the MC whine/complaining, the whole system hasn't happened yet and the only tournament that has started is the GSL. CHill and wait for the season to fully kick in. Guys like White Ra, Stephano, Idra, Incontrol, Naniwa, Huk, Grubby, Demuslim and Catz might have personality sure. but there's no way you can argue that players like Kas, Happy, Sase, Nerchio, Snute, Lucifron, Vibe, Vortix, Sen, Morrow, Thorzain are these big time personalities because they're not, they're just as faceless and boring as people as any Koreans are. A lot of, if not the majority of top foreign players are equally are dull as personalities as the Alive's, Sniper's and Puma's of this world. Also guys like MC, Mkp, Polt, Parting, Mvp, DRG, Nestea, Violet and others have a lot of personality/story to them. The difference between the boring Koreans and the boring Foreigners is that most foreigners still speak English, which means you can understand them.It may seem like a small thing, but there's a large jump between watching a good player play, and watching a good player who you've watched commentate his ladder streaming. Oh, and the boring Koreans work 10x as hard and are the far better players. But seems like people are just fine with glorifying lazy foreigners. I mean, fuck hard work, right? Im pretty sure both work just as hard... but the atmosphere there is just better, hence deeper talent pool. Its like comparing an average TL reader to an average Bnet forum reader. The TL reader on average will be better because they are exposed to more build/strats/whines/ etc etc and will know more than the bnet forum readers who just complains about random stuff all day. Koreans living in korea will be able to speak with each other for builds and find the best most effective builds while foreigners have only access to replays/ each other hence why they are worse. Cause lets be serious here, if you get cheesed on KR, you learn how to hold it or else you stay in your league without improving. In EU/US, if u get cheesed, average player will blame the game and call the other guy a cheesy #$(*#. Hence in Korea koreans have better practice -> better, while US/EU chobo noob practice = worst. wait... you think foreigners practice remotely as hard as ESF or Kespa players? Just because you dont see them practice doesnt mean they dont. Guess which region has by far the most games played. Total games played means nothing, you want to compare how many games the pro players are playing per day. Think of it like this, when you want to compare health ailments do you look at total rates of disease or look at how many people are affected per capita.
I linked you GM league of each region....
Korea has the most games played by far
|
On April 05 2013 13:02 TeslasPigeon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 12:46 waylander_ wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 05 2013 12:37 phodacbiet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 12:37 waylander_ wrote:On April 05 2013 12:31 phodacbiet wrote:On April 05 2013 12:07 waylander_ wrote:On April 05 2013 11:45 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 05 2013 11:40 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On April 05 2013 10:47 Ravensong170 wrote:
People need to calm down. I've said this numerous time. People have so much hate for the NA/EU scene. Personally, I stop watching sc2 when its just Koreans, (unless Hero, Sage, MKP are involved) because they have no emotion. Literally they seem like robots to me. I watch for the story, for the excitement of that. When Vibe beat Flying at MLG (forget which one) pr when Scarlett came out of nowhere or when Idra 2-0 RoRo at WCS. Those are exciting. When X Korean, plays Y Korean, its not exciting to me.
Before I get flamed for not wanting the best games, that's not it, its just for me I watch Esports not for the game, but for the entirety. The story behind the games and the games.
So yea if all regions were equally good at sc2, then sure that's the ideal situation. But its not. WCS is providing a way for NON-Koreans to play in tournaments where they won't get rofl stomped immediately. And yes I am one of the people who believes that the level of play from NA/EU will be better.
People need to stop the hate and just admit that this is good for esports, i know that's hard for so many people to do because Blizzard is the one organizing this, but this is growth. And that's what everyone wants right?
and before everyone jumps on the bandwagon of the MC whine/complaining, the whole system hasn't happened yet and the only tournament that has started is the GSL. CHill and wait for the season to fully kick in. Guys like White Ra, Stephano, Idra, Incontrol, Naniwa, Huk, Grubby, Demuslim and Catz might have personality sure. but there's no way you can argue that players like Kas, Happy, Sase, Nerchio, Snute, Lucifron, Vibe, Vortix, Sen, Morrow, Thorzain are these big time personalities because they're not, they're just as faceless and boring as people as any Koreans are. A lot of, if not the majority of top foreign players are equally are dull as personalities as the Alive's, Sniper's and Puma's of this world. Also guys like MC, Mkp, Polt, Parting, Mvp, DRG, Nestea, Violet and others have a lot of personality/story to them. The difference between the boring Koreans and the boring Foreigners is that most foreigners still speak English, which means you can understand them.It may seem like a small thing, but there's a large jump between watching a good player play, and watching a good player who you've watched commentate his ladder streaming. Oh, and the boring Koreans work 10x as hard and are the far better players. But seems like people are just fine with glorifying lazy foreigners. I mean, fuck hard work, right? Im pretty sure both work just as hard... but the atmosphere there is just better, hence deeper talent pool. Its like comparing an average TL reader to an average Bnet forum reader. The TL reader on average will be better because they are exposed to more build/strats/whines/ etc etc and will know more than the bnet forum readers who just complains about random stuff all day. Koreans living in korea will be able to speak with each other for builds and find the best most effective builds while foreigners have only access to replays/ each other hence why they are worse. Cause lets be serious here, if you get cheesed on KR, you learn how to hold it or else you stay in your league without improving. In EU/US, if u get cheesed, average player will blame the game and call the other guy a cheesy #$(*#. Hence in Korea koreans have better practice -> better, while US/EU chobo noob practice = worst. wait... you think foreigners practice remotely as hard as ESF or Kespa players? Just because you dont see them practice doesnt mean they dont. Guess which region has by far the most games played. Total games played means nothing, you want to compare how many games the pro players are playing per day. Think of it like this, when you want to compare health ailments do you look at total rates of disease or look at how many people are affected per capita.
I think this says it all. Number of Korean pros with wrist problems vs number of NA/EU pros with wrist problems.
|
it's not about hardworkers deserving anything. It is about building a growing scene. Outside of TL nobody cares about the Koreans. Regionalism is an extremely strong way to attract new viewers and an extremely good way to foster local scenes (by enabling them to actually... exist).
I don't give 2 shits about the highest level of play. I want more people to play around me and to have fun with friends. The --highest level of play-- is only one of the many ways to get there, and not a particularly good one to outgrow our current state.
It boils down to - people that want to see the *highest level of play* (-> brood war like scene), and people that want to see the scene grow (more cs-ish like scene).
Needless to say I could get a lot more friends to play CS with me than BroodWar.
Does anybody think that by blaming foreigners to be *lazy fucks that do not deserve to win anything* we will get more players? I honestly think this attitude will only make people leave. Down the road, after 2-3 years we have Stephano and perhaps Naniwa (and Stephano wants to stop...). Let's ignore the BW days ahah.
It's time to try something new! (That is actually not new, but just the way successful (e)sports currently work...)
I sincerely hope that people that think that only the *highest level of play* matters realize they simply are a vocal minority, they are not the future of the scene but a stagnant pool of people.
Check out the streams/FB&Twitter followers, between Destiny/Catz/Incontrol/Idra/MaximusBlack, and let's stay... Startale Avenge (who would roll any of these guys hands down).
Lol, Destiny has 28000 tweeter followers while Life has 5000 (and he got propped up on Redbull main feed). GuMiHo, one of my favourites players has 941, and he is a downright beast. And I would cheer for Stephano over GuMiHo on simple virtue of being French, he represents much more to the French scene (and the rest of the world) than GuMiHo does. And I would cheer for ForGG over GuMiHo by virtue of being a ForGG fan and him joining Millenium later on.
It's not about the world as you wish it were, but the world as it is!
|
On April 05 2013 13:08 waylander_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 13:02 TeslasPigeon wrote:On April 05 2013 12:46 waylander_ wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 05 2013 12:37 phodacbiet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 12:37 waylander_ wrote:On April 05 2013 12:31 phodacbiet wrote:On April 05 2013 12:07 waylander_ wrote:On April 05 2013 11:45 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 05 2013 11:40 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On April 05 2013 10:47 Ravensong170 wrote:
People need to calm down. I've said this numerous time. People have so much hate for the NA/EU scene. Personally, I stop watching sc2 when its just Koreans, (unless Hero, Sage, MKP are involved) because they have no emotion. Literally they seem like robots to me. I watch for the story, for the excitement of that. When Vibe beat Flying at MLG (forget which one) pr when Scarlett came out of nowhere or when Idra 2-0 RoRo at WCS. Those are exciting. When X Korean, plays Y Korean, its not exciting to me.
Before I get flamed for not wanting the best games, that's not it, its just for me I watch Esports not for the game, but for the entirety. The story behind the games and the games.
So yea if all regions were equally good at sc2, then sure that's the ideal situation. But its not. WCS is providing a way for NON-Koreans to play in tournaments where they won't get rofl stomped immediately. And yes I am one of the people who believes that the level of play from NA/EU will be better.
People need to stop the hate and just admit that this is good for esports, i know that's hard for so many people to do because Blizzard is the one organizing this, but this is growth. And that's what everyone wants right?
and before everyone jumps on the bandwagon of the MC whine/complaining, the whole system hasn't happened yet and the only tournament that has started is the GSL. CHill and wait for the season to fully kick in. Guys like White Ra, Stephano, Idra, Incontrol, Naniwa, Huk, Grubby, Demuslim and Catz might have personality sure. but there's no way you can argue that players like Kas, Happy, Sase, Nerchio, Snute, Lucifron, Vibe, Vortix, Sen, Morrow, Thorzain are these big time personalities because they're not, they're just as faceless and boring as people as any Koreans are. A lot of, if not the majority of top foreign players are equally are dull as personalities as the Alive's, Sniper's and Puma's of this world. Also guys like MC, Mkp, Polt, Parting, Mvp, DRG, Nestea, Violet and others have a lot of personality/story to them. The difference between the boring Koreans and the boring Foreigners is that most foreigners still speak English, which means you can understand them.It may seem like a small thing, but there's a large jump between watching a good player play, and watching a good player who you've watched commentate his ladder streaming. Oh, and the boring Koreans work 10x as hard and are the far better players. But seems like people are just fine with glorifying lazy foreigners. I mean, fuck hard work, right? Im pretty sure both work just as hard... but the atmosphere there is just better, hence deeper talent pool. Its like comparing an average TL reader to an average Bnet forum reader. The TL reader on average will be better because they are exposed to more build/strats/whines/ etc etc and will know more than the bnet forum readers who just complains about random stuff all day. Koreans living in korea will be able to speak with each other for builds and find the best most effective builds while foreigners have only access to replays/ each other hence why they are worse. Cause lets be serious here, if you get cheesed on KR, you learn how to hold it or else you stay in your league without improving. In EU/US, if u get cheesed, average player will blame the game and call the other guy a cheesy #$(*#. Hence in Korea koreans have better practice -> better, while US/EU chobo noob practice = worst. wait... you think foreigners practice remotely as hard as ESF or Kespa players? Just because you dont see them practice doesnt mean they dont. Guess which region has by far the most games played. Total games played means nothing, you want to compare how many games the pro players are playing per day. Think of it like this, when you want to compare health ailments do you look at total rates of disease or look at how many people are affected per capita. I linked you GM league of each region.... Korea has the most games played by far
You do know the only thing that a stat that says Korea has the most games played says is that Korea has the most games played right?
|
On April 05 2013 10:47 Ravensong170 wrote:
People need to calm down. I've said this numerous time. People have so much hate for the NA/EU scene. Personally, I stop watching sc2 when its just Koreans, (unless Hero, Sage, MKP are involved) because they have no emotion. Literally they seem like robots to me. I watch for the story, for the excitement of that. When Vibe beat Flying at MLG (forget which one) pr when Scarlett came out of nowhere or when Idra 2-0 RoRo at WCS. Those are exciting. When X Korean, plays Y Korean, its not exciting to me.
Before I get flamed for not wanting the best games, that's not it, its just for me I watch Esports not for the game, but for the entirety. The story behind the games and the games.
So yea if all regions were equally good at sc2, then sure that's the ideal situation. But its not. WCS is providing a way for NON-Koreans to play in tournaments where they won't get rofl stomped immediately. And yes I am one of the people who believes that the level of play from NA/EU will be better.
People need to stop the hate and just admit that this is good for esports, i know that's hard for so many people to do because Blizzard is the one organizing this, but this is growth. And that's what everyone wants right?
and before everyone jumps on the bandwagon of the MC whine/complaining, the whole system hasn't happened yet and the only tournament that has started is the GSL. CHill and wait for the season to fully kick in.
Scarlett shows alot of emotions :D sure.
there are emotionless Koreans and "foreigners" and there are Koreans and Foreigners that are more of the ceremony type.
stop this bullshit with emotionless blablablal stupid nonsense.
|
One word. Casuals. Its the casual fans the make up the majority of the esports and probably sports fanbase. Personally I will always hold my nose up to the notion that somehow by default, a top 8 Korean finish is boring....yeah, because flash vs idra would be a superior viewing experience over flash vs life because of the "storylines".
You'd think that oh I dunno, that the game itself
Would provide enough excitement?
|
On April 05 2013 15:08 lannisport wrote:
One word. Casuals. Its the casual fans the make up the majority of the esports and probably sports fanbase. Personally I will always hold my nose up to the notion that somehow by default, a top 8 Korean finish is boring....yeah, because flash vs idra would be a superior viewing experience over flash vs life because of the "storylines". Meh.
Are you being sarcastic? I'm not really sure but your style of writing seems to go that way. If not: Ofcourse the casuals do make the biggest part of the fanbase which doesn't mean that there should be no pro level. No one asked for not host NA/EU tournaments or leagues, all we asked is simply not ban based on origin. It makes eSport look bad and no one would take it serious to begin with.
If you put up a tournament/league, don't make it MAJOR and don't make it give out 40000+ $ in one weekend. Make it like the GSL a longer tournament with a not so high price pool , so Koreans are not as attracted as they would for a 2 day tournament with tons of money. This way you don't have to ban anyone and its up to them if they want to compete or not. The main point point here is being. foreigners cannot sustain themselves and the risk is high, because there is no reward for taking the risk of being a progamer AKA earning money.
Well take a guess; Koreans take the same risk and EU/NA players are actually spoiled if it comes to sallary, Koreans get far less.
|
On April 05 2013 15:14 Type|NarutO wrote:
one asked for not host NA/EU tournaments or leagues, all we asked is simply not ban based on origin. It makes eSport look bad and no one would take it serious to begin with.
As far as I know most sports have origin locked nationals...
Eurocup soccer teams are origin locked.
Non-locked events are usually once-in-a-few-years exception.
|
On April 05 2013 16:15 freakhill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 15:14 Type|NarutO wrote:
one asked for not host NA/EU tournaments or leagues, all we asked is simply not ban based on origin. It makes eSport look bad and no one would take it serious to begin with.
As far as I know most sports have origin locked nationals... Eurocup soccer teams are origin locked. Non-locked events are usually once-in-a-few-years exception.
Are they origin locked, or are they locked for people that are not resident of the country? Because thats a huge difference. ESL Pro Series doesn't allow you to participate in it when your main residence isn't Germany, but it doesn't ban you because you are originally from Korea or any other country in the world. While its a small difference in its result, its a huge difference in setting the ruling.
If a Korean has to move and be a resident of the US to participate in this league, its his choice but he has one. If you simply prevent him from playing because his origin is Korea (would apply for Polt for example) you are doing wrong - its really just that simple. Its nothing short of discrimination based on ones race which would lead me to believe people would judge you as racist and be right about it.
|
On April 05 2013 15:14 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 15:08 lannisport wrote:
One word. Casuals. Its the casual fans the make up the majority of the esports and probably sports fanbase. Personally I will always hold my nose up to the notion that somehow by default, a top 8 Korean finish is boring....yeah, because flash vs idra would be a superior viewing experience over flash vs life because of the "storylines". Meh. Are you being sarcastic? I'm not really sure but your style of writing seems to go that way. If not: Ofcourse the casuals do make the biggest part of the fanbase which doesn't mean that there should be no pro level. No one asked for not host NA/EU tournaments or leagues, all we asked is simply not ban based on origin. It makes eSport look bad and no one would take it serious to begin with. If you put up a tournament/league, don't make it MAJOR and don't make it give out 40000+ $ in one weekend. Make it like the GSL a longer tournament with a not so high price pool , so Koreans are not as attracted as they would for a 2 day tournament with tons of money. This way you don't have to ban anyone and its up to them if they want to compete or not. The main point point here is being. foreigners cannot sustain themselves and the risk is high, because there is no reward for taking the risk of being a progamer AKA earning money. Well take a guess; Koreans take the same risk and EU/NA players are actually spoiled if it comes to sallary, Koreans get far less.
These leagues aren't even being region locked. There are barriers to entry but I think we can expect to see many Koreans in NA. The risk between Foreigners and Koreans is not the same either. Yes top foreginer salaries are inflated but if you are a new player trying to break into the scene there are very few teams that will give you any support and no tournaments that aren't already being dominated by the top level players. On the other hand Korean gamers wanting to go pro can try out for a proteam where they can live for free while improving. I agree that the prize pool should be somewhat smaller for the foreign leagues but I think it is a very positive thing for the scene to have these regions somewhat protected.
|
On April 05 2013 16:23 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 16:15 freakhill wrote:On April 05 2013 15:14 Type|NarutO wrote:
one asked for not host NA/EU tournaments or leagues, all we asked is simply not ban based on origin. It makes eSport look bad and no one would take it serious to begin with.
As far as I know most sports have origin locked nationals... Eurocup soccer teams are origin locked. Non-locked events are usually once-in-a-few-years exception. Are they origin locked, or are they locked for people that are not resident of the country? Because thats a huge difference. ESL Pro Series doesn't allow you to participate in it when your main residence isn't Germany, but it doesn't ban you because you are originally from Korea or any other country in the world. While its a small difference in its result, its a huge difference in setting the ruling. If a Korean has to move and be a resident of the US to participate in this league, its his choice but he has one. If you simply prevent him from playing because his origin is Korea (would apply for Polt for example) you are doing wrong - its really just that simple. Its nothing short of discrimination based on ones race which would lead me to believe people would judge you as racist and be right about it.
You need to read up on how this system works. Anyone can participate in any league, they just need to commit to one for the entire year.
|
I don't care what country someone comes from as long as they play protoss.
|
First of all I will adress what Catz had to say in Sotg. He basically said that he would like some American tournaments to be only played by American's.
I'm pretty sure they can play some weekly tournaments with 100 or $200 cash prize on the NA server, if not then they can play on the EU server, the lag is not that aweful and you just have to beat Goody, Bly and Nerchio
|
On April 05 2013 16:33 Geos13 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 16:23 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 16:15 freakhill wrote:On April 05 2013 15:14 Type|NarutO wrote:
one asked for not host NA/EU tournaments or leagues, all we asked is simply not ban based on origin. It makes eSport look bad and no one would take it serious to begin with.
As far as I know most sports have origin locked nationals... Eurocup soccer teams are origin locked. Non-locked events are usually once-in-a-few-years exception. Are they origin locked, or are they locked for people that are not resident of the country? Because thats a huge difference. ESL Pro Series doesn't allow you to participate in it when your main residence isn't Germany, but it doesn't ban you because you are originally from Korea or any other country in the world. While its a small difference in its result, its a huge difference in setting the ruling. If a Korean has to move and be a resident of the US to participate in this league, its his choice but he has one. If you simply prevent him from playing because his origin is Korea (would apply for Polt for example) you are doing wrong - its really just that simple. Its nothing short of discrimination based on ones race which would lead me to believe people would judge you as racist and be right about it. You need to read up on how this system works. Anyone can participate in any league, they just need to commit to one for the entire year.
It seems I actually don't have to read up how the system works, because I'm not discussing the WCS part here and now. Sorry if you misunderstood. Talking about establishing a tournament scene / leagues within EU and NA that POTENTIALLY ban based on origin, if you want to ask a few others here which I disagree with.
|
I think there is a conflated point. An origin country is not a race (else, all national teams would be **racist**).
But I was confused
I think WCS style locking is the way to go.
*origin-country* locked tournaments are fine in my book (you can make national teams through these) but they shouldn't be the common ones as they are too exclusive toward a foreigner in his host country.
|
Given that I have heard 0 information on preventing hacking or punishments to be given, I'm going with fuck it. Obviously they haven't gotten past the how can we make the most money stage. Once they get to the not fucking over players stage, maybe it will be worth caring about. These guys need to be looking at real sports if they want to become one. Every real sport would view this as pathetic.
|
On April 05 2013 17:10 playa wrote:
Given that I have heard 0 information on preventing hacking or punishments to be given, I'm going with fuck it. Obviously they haven't gotten past the how can we make the most money stage. Once they get to the not fucking over players stage, maybe it will be worth caring about. These guys need to be looking at real sports if they want to become one. Every real sport would view this as pathetic.
really? how is this fucking anyone over?
IMO I think it's a smart move to develop the scene; sure the MLG's of the world might lose those top top Koreans who win every time but it also means a ton less B-teamers to fill out the rest of the tournament field. The only way to encourage growth in the North American and European scene is by 1. giving them something significant to win and 2. allowing regulated competition with Koreans.
Also this rule does not stop NA players going to Korea, or vice versa. The difference is that they need to commit much like real sports players need to make decisions like "do i want to remain in England or be sold to a team in Spain". David Beckham going to Galaxy is a real-world comparison to say...Polt living in the US to play MLG(i know he's here for studying, but let's be real he's not going to declare himself eligible for GSL/OSL is he).
The problem with WCS last time around was that in Korea the top, top players did not take the qualifiers as seriously due to GSL commitments as guys like Sting, Creator and First. This time around we will see a worldwide finals where the players there are the ones who paid for their ticket through blood, sweat and tears throughout the year, already hyped for the finals and we are only 1 Code S Ro32 group in.
The one thing I need to see rise up is a more prominent team league in EU/NA, I know there are some minor leagues floating around but frankly they need an MLG equivalent to GSTL.
I think it's smart also because with a focus on your "local" scene, more NA/EU teams will develop team houses etc. because they are instantly more relevant. You might say it's "fixing" results for foreigners but I just see it as the next step that needs to be taken in order to make E-sports more structured and successful!
|
On April 05 2013 12:37 waylander_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 12:31 phodacbiet wrote:On April 05 2013 12:07 waylander_ wrote:On April 05 2013 11:45 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 05 2013 11:40 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On April 05 2013 10:47 Ravensong170 wrote:
People need to calm down. I've said this numerous time. People have so much hate for the NA/EU scene. Personally, I stop watching sc2 when its just Koreans, (unless Hero, Sage, MKP are involved) because they have no emotion. Literally they seem like robots to me. I watch for the story, for the excitement of that. When Vibe beat Flying at MLG (forget which one) pr when Scarlett came out of nowhere or when Idra 2-0 RoRo at WCS. Those are exciting. When X Korean, plays Y Korean, its not exciting to me.
Before I get flamed for not wanting the best games, that's not it, its just for me I watch Esports not for the game, but for the entirety. The story behind the games and the games.
So yea if all regions were equally good at sc2, then sure that's the ideal situation. But its not. WCS is providing a way for NON-Koreans to play in tournaments where they won't get rofl stomped immediately. And yes I am one of the people who believes that the level of play from NA/EU will be better.
People need to stop the hate and just admit that this is good for esports, i know that's hard for so many people to do because Blizzard is the one organizing this, but this is growth. And that's what everyone wants right?
and before everyone jumps on the bandwagon of the MC whine/complaining, the whole system hasn't happened yet and the only tournament that has started is the GSL. CHill and wait for the season to fully kick in. Guys like White Ra, Stephano, Idra, Incontrol, Naniwa, Huk, Grubby, Demuslim and Catz might have personality sure. but there's no way you can argue that players like Kas, Happy, Sase, Nerchio, Snute, Lucifron, Vibe, Vortix, Sen, Morrow, Thorzain are these big time personalities because they're not, they're just as faceless and boring as people as any Koreans are. A lot of, if not the majority of top foreign players are equally are dull as personalities as the Alive's, Sniper's and Puma's of this world. Also guys like MC, Mkp, Polt, Parting, Mvp, DRG, Nestea, Violet and others have a lot of personality/story to them. The difference between the boring Koreans and the boring Foreigners is that most foreigners still speak English, which means you can understand them.It may seem like a small thing, but there's a large jump between watching a good player play, and watching a good player who you've watched commentate his ladder streaming. Oh, and the boring Koreans work 10x as hard and are the far better players. But seems like people are just fine with glorifying lazy foreigners. I mean, fuck hard work, right? Im pretty sure both work just as hard... but the atmosphere there is just better, hence deeper talent pool. Its like comparing an average TL reader to an average Bnet forum reader. The TL reader on average will be better because they are exposed to more build/strats/whines/ etc etc and will know more than the bnet forum readers who just complains about random stuff all day. Koreans living in korea will be able to speak with each other for builds and find the best most effective builds while foreigners have only access to replays/ each other hence why they are worse. Cause lets be serious here, if you get cheesed on KR, you learn how to hold it or else you stay in your league without improving. In EU/US, if u get cheesed, average player will blame the game and call the other guy a cheesy #$(*#. Hence in Korea koreans have better practice -> better, while US/EU chobo noob practice = worst. wait... you think foreigners practice remotely as hard as ESF or Kespa players?
I'm sure some do, just Koreans practice far more efficiently.
|
People that say" i wonna see best players a.k. koreans only etc" are mostly hardcore gamers/are rly good at SC.Its rly limited group of ppl and if we wonna esport to grow a.k. get more ppl to play/watch games we need new ppl that dont know @#$# bout SC most of times and aside fact that they couldnt say whats "best play" and whats "medicore play", its way easier for lets say some random french dude to get hooked up on SC couse he can see hes country mate Stephano slaying nerds around comapre to some faceless korean(to him that is, not saying kreans are, well not all of them  ).And after he gets hooked he can than see diff in play style and than he can join your club "i wonna see only best play club".So bottom line is we need regional play same as we need best play(for those harcore fans), so going full korean is stupid and hope "epsorts ppl that control this scene" wont let that happen.My 2 cents.
|
On April 05 2013 17:23 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 17:10 playa wrote:
Given that I have heard 0 information on preventing hacking or punishments to be given, I'm going with fuck it. Obviously they haven't gotten past the how can we make the most money stage. Once they get to the not fucking over players stage, maybe it will be worth caring about. These guys need to be looking at real sports if they want to become one. Every real sport would view this as pathetic. really? how is this fucking anyone over? IMO I think it's a smart move to develop the scene; sure the MLG's of the world might lose those top top Koreans who win every time but it also means a ton less B-teamers to fill out the rest of the tournament field. The only way to encourage growth in the North American and European scene is by 1. giving them something significant to win and 2. allowing regulated competition with Koreans. Also this rule does not stop NA players going to Korea, or vice versa. The difference is that they need to commit much like real sports players need to make decisions like "do i want to remain in England or be sold to a team in Spain". David Beckham going to Galaxy is a real-world comparison to say...Polt living in the US to play MLG(i know he's here for studying, but let's be real he's not going to declare himself eligible for GSL/OSL is he). The problem with WCS last time around was that in Korea the top, top players did not take the qualifiers as seriously due to GSL commitments as guys like Sting, Creator and First. This time around we will see a worldwide finals where the players there are the ones who paid for their ticket through blood, sweat and tears throughout the year, already hyped for the finals and we are only 1 Code S Ro32 group in. The one thing I need to see rise up is a more prominent team league in EU/NA, I know there are some minor leagues floating around but frankly they need an MLG equivalent to GSTL. I think it's smart also because with a focus on your "local" scene, more NA/EU teams will develop team houses etc. because they are instantly more relevant. You might say it's "fixing" results for foreigners but I just see it as the next step that needs to be taken in order to make E-sports more structured and successful!
Focus on local scene? Let's say you live in Kansas. Well, I just created a region called Kansas and invited some Koreans to play in your local scene via the internet. Bam, your local scene has just been increased because some Koreans won an online region with Kansas in the name. Feel free to send me a thank you card.
Nothing about this screams anything but I've been thinking about how to maximize profit and limit scheduling conflicts. And, that's natural for any business at the beginning stages of an endeavor. But, it's ridiculous to call this anything but a fuckjob. Do you have any idea how many people cheated in BW? A game with absolutely nothing to fucking gain by cheating. If it weren't for anti hack in online qualifiers, I would have never had a chance. Fringe players have no shot.
What was the strongest case for Lance Armstrong having cheated? You know a lot of the best riders are cheating, and yet year after year this guy is good enough, clean, to beat all of his peers that are cheating? Anytime you up the ante in prize but addressing cheating isn't something you're already prepared to do, you don't have competitive sports. You have a scheme to make money. Competitive cheating. And, given a farce of a sport atm, why not have Kansas be filled with Korean champions, while we're at it.
Honestly, if they can't get serious about doing something to prevent cheating, I'd rather Koreans win every spot than act like something legit is going on. At least this is just blatant and Koreans are good enough to overcome it, even though a lot of them will probably cheat, too.
|
I wan't to see the best gameplay possible, and if it turns out that a foreigner can compete with that then i will cheer for that player. Why? Well, it's fun to see a underdog win because we (non-koreans) are underdogs ourself.
All these discussions about "it's racist" this and that. Well I guess all sports are racist then on national level, so we should probably close down the Olympics and WCs in sports.
People like to belong and most people are foreigners not close to the koreans in skill, and thus cheer for their bad mates.
|
On April 05 2013 17:47 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 17:23 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:On April 05 2013 17:10 playa wrote:
Given that I have heard 0 information on preventing hacking or punishments to be given, I'm going with fuck it. Obviously they haven't gotten past the how can we make the most money stage. Once they get to the not fucking over players stage, maybe it will be worth caring about. These guys need to be looking at real sports if they want to become one. Every real sport would view this as pathetic. really? how is this fucking anyone over? IMO I think it's a smart move to develop the scene; sure the MLG's of the world might lose those top top Koreans who win every time but it also means a ton less B-teamers to fill out the rest of the tournament field. The only way to encourage growth in the North American and European scene is by 1. giving them something significant to win and 2. allowing regulated competition with Koreans. Also this rule does not stop NA players going to Korea, or vice versa. The difference is that they need to commit much like real sports players need to make decisions like "do i want to remain in England or be sold to a team in Spain". David Beckham going to Galaxy is a real-world comparison to say...Polt living in the US to play MLG(i know he's here for studying, but let's be real he's not going to declare himself eligible for GSL/OSL is he). The problem with WCS last time around was that in Korea the top, top players did not take the qualifiers as seriously due to GSL commitments as guys like Sting, Creator and First. This time around we will see a worldwide finals where the players there are the ones who paid for their ticket through blood, sweat and tears throughout the year, already hyped for the finals and we are only 1 Code S Ro32 group in. The one thing I need to see rise up is a more prominent team league in EU/NA, I know there are some minor leagues floating around but frankly they need an MLG equivalent to GSTL. I think it's smart also because with a focus on your "local" scene, more NA/EU teams will develop team houses etc. because they are instantly more relevant. You might say it's "fixing" results for foreigners but I just see it as the next step that needs to be taken in order to make E-sports more structured and successful! Focus on local scene? Let's say you live in Kansas. Well, I just created a region called Kansas and invited some Koreans to play in your local scene via the internet. Bam, your local scene has just been increased because some Koreans won an online region with Kansas in the name. Feel free to send me a thank you card. Nothing about this screams anything but I've been thinking about how to maximize profit and limit scheduling conflicts. And, that's natural for any business at the beginning stages of an endeavor. But, it's ridiculous to call this anything but a fuckjob. Do you have any idea how many people cheated in BW? A game with absolutely nothing to fucking gain by cheating. If it weren't for anti hack in online qualifiers, I would have never had a chance. Fringe players have no shot. What was the strongest case for Lance Armstrong having cheated? You know a lot of the best riders are cheating, and yet year after year this guy is good enough, clean, to beat all of his peers that are cheating? Anytime you up the ante in prize but addressing cheating isn't something you're already prepared to do, you don't have competitive sports. You have a scheme to make money. Competitive cheating. And, given a farce of a sport atm, why not have Kansas be filled with Korean champions, while we're at it. Honestly, if they can't get serious about doing something to prevent cheating, I'd rather Koreans win every spot than act like something legit is going on. At least this is just blatant and Koreans are good enough to overcome it, even though a lot of them will probably cheat, too.
Um...how is anyone supposed to cheat at MLG/GSL offline? BW was a different game in a different time, and frankly all of the talk in the Blizzard announcement was that the majority of WCS points would be for off-line Blizzard-supported events, with Blizzard appointing points for smaller tournaments. Rest assured, Go4SC2 Wednesday will not qualify you for WCS Finals...
|
On April 05 2013 19:54 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 17:47 playa wrote:On April 05 2013 17:23 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:On April 05 2013 17:10 playa wrote:
Given that I have heard 0 information on preventing hacking or punishments to be given, I'm going with fuck it. Obviously they haven't gotten past the how can we make the most money stage. Once they get to the not fucking over players stage, maybe it will be worth caring about. These guys need to be looking at real sports if they want to become one. Every real sport would view this as pathetic. really? how is this fucking anyone over? IMO I think it's a smart move to develop the scene; sure the MLG's of the world might lose those top top Koreans who win every time but it also means a ton less B-teamers to fill out the rest of the tournament field. The only way to encourage growth in the North American and European scene is by 1. giving them something significant to win and 2. allowing regulated competition with Koreans. Also this rule does not stop NA players going to Korea, or vice versa. The difference is that they need to commit much like real sports players need to make decisions like "do i want to remain in England or be sold to a team in Spain". David Beckham going to Galaxy is a real-world comparison to say...Polt living in the US to play MLG(i know he's here for studying, but let's be real he's not going to declare himself eligible for GSL/OSL is he). The problem with WCS last time around was that in Korea the top, top players did not take the qualifiers as seriously due to GSL commitments as guys like Sting, Creator and First. This time around we will see a worldwide finals where the players there are the ones who paid for their ticket through blood, sweat and tears throughout the year, already hyped for the finals and we are only 1 Code S Ro32 group in. The one thing I need to see rise up is a more prominent team league in EU/NA, I know there are some minor leagues floating around but frankly they need an MLG equivalent to GSTL. I think it's smart also because with a focus on your "local" scene, more NA/EU teams will develop team houses etc. because they are instantly more relevant. You might say it's "fixing" results for foreigners but I just see it as the next step that needs to be taken in order to make E-sports more structured and successful! Focus on local scene? Let's say you live in Kansas. Well, I just created a region called Kansas and invited some Koreans to play in your local scene via the internet. Bam, your local scene has just been increased because some Koreans won an online region with Kansas in the name. Feel free to send me a thank you card. Nothing about this screams anything but I've been thinking about how to maximize profit and limit scheduling conflicts. And, that's natural for any business at the beginning stages of an endeavor. But, it's ridiculous to call this anything but a fuckjob. Do you have any idea how many people cheated in BW? A game with absolutely nothing to fucking gain by cheating. If it weren't for anti hack in online qualifiers, I would have never had a chance. Fringe players have no shot. What was the strongest case for Lance Armstrong having cheated? You know a lot of the best riders are cheating, and yet year after year this guy is good enough, clean, to beat all of his peers that are cheating? Anytime you up the ante in prize but addressing cheating isn't something you're already prepared to do, you don't have competitive sports. You have a scheme to make money. Competitive cheating. And, given a farce of a sport atm, why not have Kansas be filled with Korean champions, while we're at it. Honestly, if they can't get serious about doing something to prevent cheating, I'd rather Koreans win every spot than act like something legit is going on. At least this is just blatant and Koreans are good enough to overcome it, even though a lot of them will probably cheat, too. Um...how is anyone supposed to cheat at MLG/GSL offline? BW was a different game in a different time, and frankly all of the talk in the Blizzard announcement was that the majority of WCS points would be for off-line Blizzard-supported events, with Blizzard appointing points for smaller tournaments. Rest assured, Go4SC2 Wednesday will not qualify you for WCS Finals...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but offline events don't start until the final 16. The only thing preventing hackers from ending up in the final 16, atm, are people being that much better than them. And given that, it's pretty irrelevant that you can't hack in an offline event if few legit players even have a chance to qualify.
As someone that wants to watch foreigners and also have a chance to watch the best of the best play each other, this format couldn't be worse. Once Koreans split among regions, you lose the chance to watch the best of the best until the global finals, and you never get to see foreigners win anything. This is all around horrendous. There's way less reason to play now than in relation to the WCS last season. Hoping your region isn't all Koreans. Hoping the honor system is working and your opponents, even if foreigners, aren't hacking. With all that is left for chance, even an atheist would be praying to god. Because, you'd need a miracle for it to make sense.
|
If there was a US regional tourney say 16 or 32 players that is held one day a month what would it take in terms of prize pool to get pros to participate?
|
Arguing like this is idiocy. I think both sides have a point. Top level tournaments should be open to everyone, but we need more local and regional tournaments. It's like this in every other sport, Bbal, Golf, Football(European),etc. You don't see anyone from those scenes whining about regional/local scenes. They're done to promote competition and cultivate players. We already have premier tournaments with different formats. GSL, GSTL, Proleague, MLG, IEM, and IPL. Let's develop the lower level scene now.
|
On April 06 2013 04:40 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 19:54 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:On April 05 2013 17:47 playa wrote:On April 05 2013 17:23 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:On April 05 2013 17:10 playa wrote:
Given that I have heard 0 information on preventing hacking or punishments to be given, I'm going with fuck it. Obviously they haven't gotten past the how can we make the most money stage. Once they get to the not fucking over players stage, maybe it will be worth caring about. These guys need to be looking at real sports if they want to become one. Every real sport would view this as pathetic. really? how is this fucking anyone over? IMO I think it's a smart move to develop the scene; sure the MLG's of the world might lose those top top Koreans who win every time but it also means a ton less B-teamers to fill out the rest of the tournament field. The only way to encourage growth in the North American and European scene is by 1. giving them something significant to win and 2. allowing regulated competition with Koreans. Also this rule does not stop NA players going to Korea, or vice versa. The difference is that they need to commit much like real sports players need to make decisions like "do i want to remain in England or be sold to a team in Spain". David Beckham going to Galaxy is a real-world comparison to say...Polt living in the US to play MLG(i know he's here for studying, but let's be real he's not going to declare himself eligible for GSL/OSL is he). The problem with WCS last time around was that in Korea the top, top players did not take the qualifiers as seriously due to GSL commitments as guys like Sting, Creator and First. This time around we will see a worldwide finals where the players there are the ones who paid for their ticket through blood, sweat and tears throughout the year, already hyped for the finals and we are only 1 Code S Ro32 group in. The one thing I need to see rise up is a more prominent team league in EU/NA, I know there are some minor leagues floating around but frankly they need an MLG equivalent to GSTL. I think it's smart also because with a focus on your "local" scene, more NA/EU teams will develop team houses etc. because they are instantly more relevant. You might say it's "fixing" results for foreigners but I just see it as the next step that needs to be taken in order to make E-sports more structured and successful! Focus on local scene? Let's say you live in Kansas. Well, I just created a region called Kansas and invited some Koreans to play in your local scene via the internet. Bam, your local scene has just been increased because some Koreans won an online region with Kansas in the name. Feel free to send me a thank you card. Nothing about this screams anything but I've been thinking about how to maximize profit and limit scheduling conflicts. And, that's natural for any business at the beginning stages of an endeavor. But, it's ridiculous to call this anything but a fuckjob. Do you have any idea how many people cheated in BW? A game with absolutely nothing to fucking gain by cheating. If it weren't for anti hack in online qualifiers, I would have never had a chance. Fringe players have no shot. What was the strongest case for Lance Armstrong having cheated? You know a lot of the best riders are cheating, and yet year after year this guy is good enough, clean, to beat all of his peers that are cheating? Anytime you up the ante in prize but addressing cheating isn't something you're already prepared to do, you don't have competitive sports. You have a scheme to make money. Competitive cheating. And, given a farce of a sport atm, why not have Kansas be filled with Korean champions, while we're at it. Honestly, if they can't get serious about doing something to prevent cheating, I'd rather Koreans win every spot than act like something legit is going on. At least this is just blatant and Koreans are good enough to overcome it, even though a lot of them will probably cheat, too. Um...how is anyone supposed to cheat at MLG/GSL offline? BW was a different game in a different time, and frankly all of the talk in the Blizzard announcement was that the majority of WCS points would be for off-line Blizzard-supported events, with Blizzard appointing points for smaller tournaments. Rest assured, Go4SC2 Wednesday will not qualify you for WCS Finals... Correct me if I'm wrong, but offline events don't start until the final 16. The only thing preventing hackers from ending up in the final 16, atm, are people being that much better than them. And given that, it's pretty irrelevant that you can't hack in an offline event if few legit players even have a chance to qualify. As someone that wants to watch foreigners and also have a chance to watch the best of the best play each other, this format couldn't be worse. Once Koreans split among regions, you lose the chance to watch the best of the best until the global finals, and you never get to see foreigners win anything. This is all around horrendous. There's way less reason to play now than in relation to the WCS last season. Hoping your region isn't all Koreans. Hoping the honor system is working and your opponents, even if foreigners, aren't hacking. With all that is left for chance, even an atheist would be praying to god. Because, you'd need a miracle for it to make sense.
If people consistently hack people will find out. Sure someone could potentially be subtle enough to cheat once or twice and get away with it but anyone using things like maphacks or macro's consistently will eventually be found out. It's very hard to hide that you are cheating, at least if the tournament is big enough that a player got a lot of spot light on them.
And once someone is proven to hack they are shunned by the community. That's not to say someone won't try but there's a decent incentive not to do it.
|
And once someone is proven to hack they are shunned by the community. That's not to say someone won't try but there's a decent incentive not to do it.
Still super annoying on ladder though.
|
Many years I was really into Street Fighter tournaments. I live in Virginia and we'd have a tournament every 2 weeks at the one remaining popular arcade in the state.
At one point, one of the best players in the country who lives in New York City decided to start attending our tournaments. He was completely out of our league, won first place for 4 months straight, and claimed the prize money for every tournament. He did this to basically get a free trip to Virginia on the weekend, and for the fun of proving yourself superior.
One day I suggested on shoryuken.com that maybe we should try having one single solitary tournament without the top player. Then for once, tournament results wouldn't be based on which player was lucky enough to run into the pro last in the brackets, and the prize money would go to someone in our community.
The outrage was loud, swift, and stupid - "OMG YOU WANT TO BAN SKILL" "EVERYONE WHO DOESN'T SUCK IS BANNED AHAHAHA RETARD" and so on. They suggested learning from his playstyle and either copying it or figuring out counters- hard to do when he played 5 matchups per tournament and there's no video recording, no Youtube, etc. to learn how the pros manage to play so well. The community had spoken and it wasn't going to happen, so I backed off.
Well, I still think it's a good idea, and it would be good for SC2 as well. Why can't we have a North American championship to find out who is the best player living in North America? I'm not saying let's ban Koreans from every tournament, but is there harm to be done by trying it once?
|
Canada133 Posts
im a 8 year broodwar player and i was someone who was alway saying let the best player in the world win , no matter where he from , reward skill , not where they are from , this was the offcial view about e-sport in broodwar , and let face it , in the end this was korean vs korean only.
and sadly the same start to happen in starcraft 2 , they are far less foreigner who can win vs korean , many top foreigner just stop playing , they give up , no one come after them . almost zero new blood , because you need money to live in this world and who want to enter it if you know you will win nothing ?
that cute to be the best of the best in a computer game but in the end MONEY of course motivate you .
TAKE THE KOREAN FOR THIS EXEMPLE , why they are not happy with the new blizzard league ? this clearly go with the mindset ''be the best in the world'' well no , they whine , they will get less money and they go full emo . they will even travel for go where the competive scene more easy for them.....
while the top foreigner are in this boat since 1-2 year now , they practice , get no money , win no tournament .
that would be about time from the people who want E-SPORT to grow to support it , are you guy blind ?
for e-sport to grow you need fans , for a fans the bond more strong when the guy come from your country , talk your langage and so on , THAT THE SAME IN ANY SPORT .
for grow e-sport you need people who dream about becoming a pro gamer , see people win tournament , get money and fame , you think people outside korea will want to become a pro gamer 2 year from now , when they see only korean win tournament after tournament ?
and honestly let talk about quality of the game and skill , top foreigner can make game fun to watch and some time way more fun to watch that watching a 1vs1 vs 2 korean , and honestly for most casual watcher they cant pick the skill diference from a top foreigner and a korean . that realy YOUR BEST REASON ??!
with your guy mindset of ''be the best of the best'' will kill e-sport and make starcraft 2 just like broodwar , mark my word because im going archive it and quote this topic 2 year from now ( hope this will be ok to bump a old post lol ? ) when the e-sport start to be only active in korea .
but this view dont help grow e-sport ,
|
Why? Because otherwise this game will go down the broodwar-road. Hardly anyone will watch outside of korea and foreign tournaments will die out.
Not to mention that the skill-level would rise a lot if bigger countries actually used their - much bigger - playerpool as well as korea does.
|
On April 06 2013 21:51 quebecman77 wrote:
im a 8 year broodwar player and i was someone who was alway saying let the best player in the world win , no matter where he from , reward skill , not where they are from , this was the offcial view about e-sport in broodwar , and let face it , in the end this was korean vs korean only.
and sadly the same start to happen in starcraft 2 , they are far less foreigner who can win vs korean , many top foreigner just stop playing , they give up , no one come after them . almost zero new blood , because you need money to live in this world and who want to enter it if you know you will win nothing ?
that cute to be the best of the best in a computer game but in the end MONEY of course motivate you .
TAKE THE KOREAN FOR THIS EXEMPLE , why they are not happy with the new blizzard league ? this clearly go with the mindset ''be the best in the world'' well no , they whine , they will get less money and they go full emo . they will even travel for go where the competive scene more easy for them.....
while the top foreigner are in this boat since 1-2 year now , they practice , get no money , win no tournament .
that would be about time from the people who want E-SPORT to grow to support it , are you guy blind ?
for e-sport to grow you need fans , for a fans the bond more strong when the guy come from your country , talk your langage and so on , THAT THE SAME IN ANY SPORT .
for grow e-sport you need people who dream about becoming a pro gamer , see people win tournament , get money and fame , you think people outside korea will want to become a pro gamer 2 year from now , when they see only korean win tournament after tournament ?
and honestly let talk about quality of the game and skill , top foreigner can make game fun to watch and some time way more fun to watch that watching a 1vs1 vs 2 korean , and honestly for most casual watcher they cant pick the skill diference from a top foreigner and a korean . that realy YOUR BEST REASON ??!
with your guy mindset of ''be the best of the best'' will kill e-sport and make starcraft 2 just like broodwar , mark my word because im going archive it and quote this topic 2 year from now ( hope this will be ok to bump a old post lol ? ) when the e-sport start to be only active in korea .
but this view dont help grow e-sport ,
Besides the obvious point that the grammar, spelling and general punctuation in this post are completely out of whack, I have to say: I enjoy watching 2 Koreans play. It's just that those of you who are so incredibly patriotic that you claim koreans are "emotionless', "faceless" and other terms.
I don't mind if you guys want an all American or whatever tournament, even though I'm definitely not going to watch it. Too boring with the low skill. Heck, an all EU tournament would be way better, though the level of play will never approach even GSL code A except for a select few players like Stephano. For those of you who say "top 8 all-korean finishes are boring!" Well then I say: you are just being close minded, because as someone who watches every GSL, the Korean scene is filled with both personality and skill.
|
On April 05 2013 17:26 AxionSteel wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 12:37 waylander_ wrote:On April 05 2013 12:31 phodacbiet wrote:On April 05 2013 12:07 waylander_ wrote:On April 05 2013 11:45 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 05 2013 11:40 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On April 05 2013 10:47 Ravensong170 wrote:
People need to calm down. I've said this numerous time. People have so much hate for the NA/EU scene. Personally, I stop watching sc2 when its just Koreans, (unless Hero, Sage, MKP are involved) because they have no emotion. Literally they seem like robots to me. I watch for the story, for the excitement of that. When Vibe beat Flying at MLG (forget which one) pr when Scarlett came out of nowhere or when Idra 2-0 RoRo at WCS. Those are exciting. When X Korean, plays Y Korean, its not exciting to me.
Before I get flamed for not wanting the best games, that's not it, its just for me I watch Esports not for the game, but for the entirety. The story behind the games and the games.
So yea if all regions were equally good at sc2, then sure that's the ideal situation. But its not. WCS is providing a way for NON-Koreans to play in tournaments where they won't get rofl stomped immediately. And yes I am one of the people who believes that the level of play from NA/EU will be better.
People need to stop the hate and just admit that this is good for esports, i know that's hard for so many people to do because Blizzard is the one organizing this, but this is growth. And that's what everyone wants right?
and before everyone jumps on the bandwagon of the MC whine/complaining, the whole system hasn't happened yet and the only tournament that has started is the GSL. CHill and wait for the season to fully kick in. Guys like White Ra, Stephano, Idra, Incontrol, Naniwa, Huk, Grubby, Demuslim and Catz might have personality sure. but there's no way you can argue that players like Kas, Happy, Sase, Nerchio, Snute, Lucifron, Vibe, Vortix, Sen, Morrow, Thorzain are these big time personalities because they're not, they're just as faceless and boring as people as any Koreans are. A lot of, if not the majority of top foreign players are equally are dull as personalities as the Alive's, Sniper's and Puma's of this world. Also guys like MC, Mkp, Polt, Parting, Mvp, DRG, Nestea, Violet and others have a lot of personality/story to them. The difference between the boring Koreans and the boring Foreigners is that most foreigners still speak English, which means you can understand them.It may seem like a small thing, but there's a large jump between watching a good player play, and watching a good player who you've watched commentate his ladder streaming. Oh, and the boring Koreans work 10x as hard and are the far better players. But seems like people are just fine with glorifying lazy foreigners. I mean, fuck hard work, right? Im pretty sure both work just as hard... but the atmosphere there is just better, hence deeper talent pool. Its like comparing an average TL reader to an average Bnet forum reader. The TL reader on average will be better because they are exposed to more build/strats/whines/ etc etc and will know more than the bnet forum readers who just complains about random stuff all day. Koreans living in korea will be able to speak with each other for builds and find the best most effective builds while foreigners have only access to replays/ each other hence why they are worse. Cause lets be serious here, if you get cheesed on KR, you learn how to hold it or else you stay in your league without improving. In EU/US, if u get cheesed, average player will blame the game and call the other guy a cheesy #$(*#. Hence in Korea koreans have better practice -> better, while US/EU chobo noob practice = worst. wait... you think foreigners practice remotely as hard as ESF or Kespa players? I'm sure some do, just Koreans practice far more efficiently.
And alot don't. However even Koreans admit that in order to train hard and become good, you need to live in a team house and be almost constantly immersed in the game, together with your team mates.
And a team house is a lot more than just a bunch of gamers from the same team living in the same apartment.
|
Let's all remember, people: playing a video game for 14 hours a day does not entitle you to money. The point of tournaments is to reward winning, not effort. If you want foreigners to be rewarded based on how hard they try then go whine to Blizzard about paying salaries rather than prizes.
|
I can not understand the people that want every tournament to be the same thing, same Korean faces, dominating.
You already have that, with GSL, Pro-league, and such.
What is wrong with having local tournaments? People that want to watch Koreans are not forced to watch those, and people that do not want to watch only Koreans can enjoy them.
Ah, yes:
On April 06 2013 22:15 xAdra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 21:51 quebecman77 wrote:
im a 8 year broodwar player and i was someone who was alway saying let the best player in the world win , no matter where he from , reward skill , not where they are from , this was the offcial view about e-sport in broodwar , and let face it , in the end this was korean vs korean only.
and sadly the same start to happen in starcraft 2 , they are far less foreigner who can win vs korean , many top foreigner just stop playing , they give up , no one come after them . almost zero new blood , because you need money to live in this world and who want to enter it if you know you will win nothing ?
that cute to be the best of the best in a computer game but in the end MONEY of course motivate you .
TAKE THE KOREAN FOR THIS EXEMPLE , why they are not happy with the new blizzard league ? this clearly go with the mindset ''be the best in the world'' well no , they whine , they will get less money and they go full emo . they will even travel for go where the competive scene more easy for them.....
while the top foreigner are in this boat since 1-2 year now , they practice , get no money , win no tournament .
that would be about time from the people who want E-SPORT to grow to support it , are you guy blind ?
for e-sport to grow you need fans , for a fans the bond more strong when the guy come from your country , talk your langage and so on , THAT THE SAME IN ANY SPORT .
for grow e-sport you need people who dream about becoming a pro gamer , see people win tournament , get money and fame , you think people outside korea will want to become a pro gamer 2 year from now , when they see only korean win tournament after tournament ?
and honestly let talk about quality of the game and skill , top foreigner can make game fun to watch and some time way more fun to watch that watching a 1vs1 vs 2 korean , and honestly for most casual watcher they cant pick the skill diference from a top foreigner and a korean . that realy YOUR BEST REASON ??!
with your guy mindset of ''be the best of the best'' will kill e-sport and make starcraft 2 just like broodwar , mark my word because im going archive it and quote this topic 2 year from now ( hope this will be ok to bump a old post lol ? ) when the e-sport start to be only active in korea .
but this view dont help grow e-sport , Besides the obvious point that the grammar, spelling and general punctuation in this post are completely out of whack, I have to say: I enjoy watching 2 Koreans play. It's just that those of you who are so incredibly patriotic that you claim koreans are "emotionless', "faceless" and other terms. I don't mind if you guys want an all American or whatever tournament, even though I'm definitely not going to watch it. Too boring with the low skill. Heck, an all EU tournament would be way better, though the level of play will never approach even GSL code A except for a select few players like Stephano. For those of you who say "top 8 all-korean finishes are boring!" Well then I say: you are just being close minded, because as someone who watches every GSL, the Korean scene is filled with both personality and skill.
Let me just ask you a question, how well is all this "personality" represented to people ouside of Asia?
Also, since skill doesn`t nececerely make games fun, not for everyone, anyway, I would definitely say you are close minded, and need to improve yourself, before starting to lecture others.
|
Foreigners are a necessity.
If we don't see koreans crushing foreigners, we can't enjoy koreans beating foreigners
|
On April 06 2013 23:35 eronica wrote:
Foreigners are a necessity.
If we don't see koreans crushing foreigners, we can't enjoy koreans beating foreigners
Seen to much roflstomps already, gets boring after a while.
|
On April 06 2013 22:19 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 17:26 AxionSteel wrote:On April 05 2013 12:37 waylander_ wrote:On April 05 2013 12:31 phodacbiet wrote:On April 05 2013 12:07 waylander_ wrote:On April 05 2013 11:45 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 05 2013 11:40 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On April 05 2013 10:47 Ravensong170 wrote:
People need to calm down. I've said this numerous time. People have so much hate for the NA/EU scene. Personally, I stop watching sc2 when its just Koreans, (unless Hero, Sage, MKP are involved) because they have no emotion. Literally they seem like robots to me. I watch for the story, for the excitement of that. When Vibe beat Flying at MLG (forget which one) pr when Scarlett came out of nowhere or when Idra 2-0 RoRo at WCS. Those are exciting. When X Korean, plays Y Korean, its not exciting to me.
Before I get flamed for not wanting the best games, that's not it, its just for me I watch Esports not for the game, but for the entirety. The story behind the games and the games.
So yea if all regions were equally good at sc2, then sure that's the ideal situation. But its not. WCS is providing a way for NON-Koreans to play in tournaments where they won't get rofl stomped immediately. And yes I am one of the people who believes that the level of play from NA/EU will be better.
People need to stop the hate and just admit that this is good for esports, i know that's hard for so many people to do because Blizzard is the one organizing this, but this is growth. And that's what everyone wants right?
and before everyone jumps on the bandwagon of the MC whine/complaining, the whole system hasn't happened yet and the only tournament that has started is the GSL. CHill and wait for the season to fully kick in. Guys like White Ra, Stephano, Idra, Incontrol, Naniwa, Huk, Grubby, Demuslim and Catz might have personality sure. but there's no way you can argue that players like Kas, Happy, Sase, Nerchio, Snute, Lucifron, Vibe, Vortix, Sen, Morrow, Thorzain are these big time personalities because they're not, they're just as faceless and boring as people as any Koreans are. A lot of, if not the majority of top foreign players are equally are dull as personalities as the Alive's, Sniper's and Puma's of this world. Also guys like MC, Mkp, Polt, Parting, Mvp, DRG, Nestea, Violet and others have a lot of personality/story to them. The difference between the boring Koreans and the boring Foreigners is that most foreigners still speak English, which means you can understand them.It may seem like a small thing, but there's a large jump between watching a good player play, and watching a good player who you've watched commentate his ladder streaming. Oh, and the boring Koreans work 10x as hard and are the far better players. But seems like people are just fine with glorifying lazy foreigners. I mean, fuck hard work, right? Im pretty sure both work just as hard... but the atmosphere there is just better, hence deeper talent pool. Its like comparing an average TL reader to an average Bnet forum reader. The TL reader on average will be better because they are exposed to more build/strats/whines/ etc etc and will know more than the bnet forum readers who just complains about random stuff all day. Koreans living in korea will be able to speak with each other for builds and find the best most effective builds while foreigners have only access to replays/ each other hence why they are worse. Cause lets be serious here, if you get cheesed on KR, you learn how to hold it or else you stay in your league without improving. In EU/US, if u get cheesed, average player will blame the game and call the other guy a cheesy #$(*#. Hence in Korea koreans have better practice -> better, while US/EU chobo noob practice = worst. wait... you think foreigners practice remotely as hard as ESF or Kespa players? I'm sure some do, just Koreans practice far more efficiently. And alot don't. However even Koreans admit that in order to train hard and become good, you need to live in a team house and be almost constantly immersed in the game, together with your team mates. And a team house is a lot more than just a bunch of gamers from the same team living in the same apartment.
Well that was my point Someone like EmpireKas trains extremely hard, grinding out those ladder games by the bucket load, competing in those weekly cups and clanwars for his team, but you look at that, and the way KESPA teams with their professional coaches who you'd imagine get into every little detail of how to get the best out of their players, gaming houses etc operate, it's a world apart.
|
i watch starcraft 2 because i enjoy watching it. i don't care about race only about good games with the very best players.
It sounds like some of the posters here have a subtle racial agenda. How are koreans emotionless faceless etc? Even saying stereotypical things like that is racist imo. If you want to see a league where white people dominate then don't watch sc2. Black people dominate basketball and i don't see people complaining about that!
MC has a great personality. MMA doing his hadoken etc. Plenty of emotional koreans.
Remember the king of kong, MKP losing in the gsl and seeing the emotions on his face etc. it was heartwrenching!
Look at stephano. Would stephano be as big as he was in 2011/2012 if the koreans weren't dominating? No he definitely wouldn't. The reason why stephano because a huge phenomenon was because he was a foreigner who could stand toe to toe vs the koreans. To those who say they don't want koreans at tournaments ...it just means u don't want another stephano because the only way another stephano can appear on the scene is if they have koreans to compare themselves to and compete against.
|
On April 06 2013 22:15 xAdra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 21:51 quebecman77 wrote:
im a 8 year broodwar player and i was someone who was alway saying let the best player in the world win , no matter where he from , reward skill , not where they are from , this was the offcial view about e-sport in broodwar , and let face it , in the end this was korean vs korean only.
and sadly the same start to happen in starcraft 2 , they are far less foreigner who can win vs korean , many top foreigner just stop playing , they give up , no one come after them . almost zero new blood , because you need money to live in this world and who want to enter it if you know you will win nothing ?
that cute to be the best of the best in a computer game but in the end MONEY of course motivate you .
TAKE THE KOREAN FOR THIS EXEMPLE , why they are not happy with the new blizzard league ? this clearly go with the mindset ''be the best in the world'' well no , they whine , they will get less money and they go full emo . they will even travel for go where the competive scene more easy for them.....
while the top foreigner are in this boat since 1-2 year now , they practice , get no money , win no tournament .
that would be about time from the people who want E-SPORT to grow to support it , are you guy blind ?
for e-sport to grow you need fans , for a fans the bond more strong when the guy come from your country , talk your langage and so on , THAT THE SAME IN ANY SPORT .
for grow e-sport you need people who dream about becoming a pro gamer , see people win tournament , get money and fame , you think people outside korea will want to become a pro gamer 2 year from now , when they see only korean win tournament after tournament ?
and honestly let talk about quality of the game and skill , top foreigner can make game fun to watch and some time way more fun to watch that watching a 1vs1 vs 2 korean , and honestly for most casual watcher they cant pick the skill diference from a top foreigner and a korean . that realy YOUR BEST REASON ??!
with your guy mindset of ''be the best of the best'' will kill e-sport and make starcraft 2 just like broodwar , mark my word because im going archive it and quote this topic 2 year from now ( hope this will be ok to bump a old post lol ? ) when the e-sport start to be only active in korea .
but this view dont help grow e-sport , Besides the obvious point that the grammar, spelling and general punctuation in this post are completely out of whack, I have to say: I enjoy watching 2 Koreans play. It's just that those of you who are so incredibly patriotic that you claim koreans are "emotionless', "faceless" and other terms. I don't mind if you guys want an all American or whatever tournament, even though I'm definitely not going to watch it. Too boring with the low skill. Heck, an all EU tournament would be way better, though the level of play will never approach even GSL code A except for a select few players like Stephano. For those of you who say "top 8 all-korean finishes are boring!" Well then I say: you are just being close minded, because as someone who watches every GSL, the Korean scene is filled with both personality and skill.
And you are trying to rationally analyze something which is irrational. You need to accept that number of people who watch games (not only SC2) for the quality of games is minimal. In any popular sport rooting for local/national players, favourite teams always trumps the quality of play. Without foreign scene number of foreign viewers will be minimal. If you are ok with that, I see no problem, but then you cannot expect the scene to ever become anything bigger. Every country that matters in the big sports has national leagues (at least on the youth level) that are heavily restricted for foreign players by rule or practical obstacles. This is to ensure that there is enough young players to enter the sport. Being best in the world is process for many years of growth and keeping motivation for such a long period of time is hard. You do not need a lot of money necessarily, but you NEED stepping stones, where young player can have a goal to win national tournament before trying to become best in the world. Without this motivation nearly everyone will give up, and those that remain are not necessarily those that could become the best, there is no such correlation.
|
What a defeatist attitude Catz has. Anyone CAN win any tournament. You just need to play the game very seriously 12+,hours every day for years and work your way through the hierarchy of the top teams. Koreans are better because they work harder and mroe efficiently. The talent that arises in korea is only at such a level because their culture/team structure promotes insanely hard work.
|
On April 07 2013 00:24 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 22:15 xAdra wrote:On April 06 2013 21:51 quebecman77 wrote:
im a 8 year broodwar player and i was someone who was alway saying let the best player in the world win , no matter where he from , reward skill , not where they are from , this was the offcial view about e-sport in broodwar , and let face it , in the end this was korean vs korean only.
and sadly the same start to happen in starcraft 2 , they are far less foreigner who can win vs korean , many top foreigner just stop playing , they give up , no one come after them . almost zero new blood , because you need money to live in this world and who want to enter it if you know you will win nothing ?
that cute to be the best of the best in a computer game but in the end MONEY of course motivate you .
TAKE THE KOREAN FOR THIS EXEMPLE , why they are not happy with the new blizzard league ? this clearly go with the mindset ''be the best in the world'' well no , they whine , they will get less money and they go full emo . they will even travel for go where the competive scene more easy for them.....
while the top foreigner are in this boat since 1-2 year now , they practice , get no money , win no tournament .
that would be about time from the people who want E-SPORT to grow to support it , are you guy blind ?
for e-sport to grow you need fans , for a fans the bond more strong when the guy come from your country , talk your langage and so on , THAT THE SAME IN ANY SPORT .
for grow e-sport you need people who dream about becoming a pro gamer , see people win tournament , get money and fame , you think people outside korea will want to become a pro gamer 2 year from now , when they see only korean win tournament after tournament ?
and honestly let talk about quality of the game and skill , top foreigner can make game fun to watch and some time way more fun to watch that watching a 1vs1 vs 2 korean , and honestly for most casual watcher they cant pick the skill diference from a top foreigner and a korean . that realy YOUR BEST REASON ??!
with your guy mindset of ''be the best of the best'' will kill e-sport and make starcraft 2 just like broodwar , mark my word because im going archive it and quote this topic 2 year from now ( hope this will be ok to bump a old post lol ? ) when the e-sport start to be only active in korea .
but this view dont help grow e-sport , Besides the obvious point that the grammar, spelling and general punctuation in this post are completely out of whack, I have to say: I enjoy watching 2 Koreans play. It's just that those of you who are so incredibly patriotic that you claim koreans are "emotionless', "faceless" and other terms. I don't mind if you guys want an all American or whatever tournament, even though I'm definitely not going to watch it. Too boring with the low skill. Heck, an all EU tournament would be way better, though the level of play will never approach even GSL code A except for a select few players like Stephano. For those of you who say "top 8 all-korean finishes are boring!" Well then I say: you are just being close minded, because as someone who watches every GSL, the Korean scene is filled with both personality and skill. And you are trying to rationally analyze something which is irrational. You need to accept that number of people who watch games (not only SC2) for the quality of games is minimal. In any popular sport rooting for local/national players, favourite teams always trumps the quality of play. Without foreign scene number of foreign viewers will be minimal. If you are ok with that, I see no problem, but then you cannot expect the scene to ever become anything bigger. Every country that matters in the big sports has national leagues (at least on the youth level) that are heavily restricted for foreign players by rule or practical obstacles. This is to ensure that there is enough young players to enter the sport. Being best in the world is process for many years of growth and keeping motivation for such a long period of time is hard. You do not need a lot of money necessarily, but you NEED stepping stones, where young player can have a goal to win national tournament before trying to become best in the world. Without this motivation nearly everyone will give up, and those that remain are not necessarily those that could become the best, there is no such correlation.
Do soccer matches that include teams with only UK players get more views over there compared to say ManU/Arsenal or whatever?
Or in which sport you are referring to where second-rate domestic leagues are more popular than ones that include international players?
|
On April 07 2013 00:39 StarBrift wrote:The talent that arises in korea is only at such a level because their culture/team structure promotes insanely hard work.
Which we shouldn't copy since it's not healthy.
I think the OP's idea is great.
|
On April 07 2013 00:39 StarBrift wrote:
What a defeatist attitude Catz has. Anyone CAN win any tournament. You just need to play the game very seriously 12+,hours every day for years and work your way through the hierarchy of the top teams. Koreans are better because they work harder and mroe efficiently. The talent that arises in korea is only at such a level because their culture/team structure promotes insanely hard work.
And how did they get to that point ? By having time to develop that infrastructure. They did not have to exclude others as there were no "others" when they were developing their scene. Frankly I think the issue is not so much the whole foreign scene, more NA scene. EU scene seems to have enough infrastructure in place to possibly survive. NA one is getting less and less competitive as time goes on.
|
Its such a mistake to think people watch because they want to see the best games when Idra gets 10k stream views at a time.
|
On April 07 2013 00:43 rename wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 00:24 mcc wrote:On April 06 2013 22:15 xAdra wrote:On April 06 2013 21:51 quebecman77 wrote:
im a 8 year broodwar player and i was someone who was alway saying let the best player in the world win , no matter where he from , reward skill , not where they are from , this was the offcial view about e-sport in broodwar , and let face it , in the end this was korean vs korean only.
and sadly the same start to happen in starcraft 2 , they are far less foreigner who can win vs korean , many top foreigner just stop playing , they give up , no one come after them . almost zero new blood , because you need money to live in this world and who want to enter it if you know you will win nothing ?
that cute to be the best of the best in a computer game but in the end MONEY of course motivate you .
TAKE THE KOREAN FOR THIS EXEMPLE , why they are not happy with the new blizzard league ? this clearly go with the mindset ''be the best in the world'' well no , they whine , they will get less money and they go full emo . they will even travel for go where the competive scene more easy for them.....
while the top foreigner are in this boat since 1-2 year now , they practice , get no money , win no tournament .
that would be about time from the people who want E-SPORT to grow to support it , are you guy blind ?
for e-sport to grow you need fans , for a fans the bond more strong when the guy come from your country , talk your langage and so on , THAT THE SAME IN ANY SPORT .
for grow e-sport you need people who dream about becoming a pro gamer , see people win tournament , get money and fame , you think people outside korea will want to become a pro gamer 2 year from now , when they see only korean win tournament after tournament ?
and honestly let talk about quality of the game and skill , top foreigner can make game fun to watch and some time way more fun to watch that watching a 1vs1 vs 2 korean , and honestly for most casual watcher they cant pick the skill diference from a top foreigner and a korean . that realy YOUR BEST REASON ??!
with your guy mindset of ''be the best of the best'' will kill e-sport and make starcraft 2 just like broodwar , mark my word because im going archive it and quote this topic 2 year from now ( hope this will be ok to bump a old post lol ? ) when the e-sport start to be only active in korea .
but this view dont help grow e-sport , Besides the obvious point that the grammar, spelling and general punctuation in this post are completely out of whack, I have to say: I enjoy watching 2 Koreans play. It's just that those of you who are so incredibly patriotic that you claim koreans are "emotionless', "faceless" and other terms. I don't mind if you guys want an all American or whatever tournament, even though I'm definitely not going to watch it. Too boring with the low skill. Heck, an all EU tournament would be way better, though the level of play will never approach even GSL code A except for a select few players like Stephano. For those of you who say "top 8 all-korean finishes are boring!" Well then I say: you are just being close minded, because as someone who watches every GSL, the Korean scene is filled with both personality and skill. And you are trying to rationally analyze something which is irrational. You need to accept that number of people who watch games (not only SC2) for the quality of games is minimal. In any popular sport rooting for local/national players, favourite teams always trumps the quality of play. Without foreign scene number of foreign viewers will be minimal. If you are ok with that, I see no problem, but then you cannot expect the scene to ever become anything bigger. Every country that matters in the big sports has national leagues (at least on the youth level) that are heavily restricted for foreign players by rule or practical obstacles. This is to ensure that there is enough young players to enter the sport. Being best in the world is process for many years of growth and keeping motivation for such a long period of time is hard. You do not need a lot of money necessarily, but you NEED stepping stones, where young player can have a goal to win national tournament before trying to become best in the world. Without this motivation nearly everyone will give up, and those that remain are not necessarily those that could become the best, there is no such correlation. Do soccer matches that include teams with only UK players get more views over there compared to say ManU/Arsenal or whatever? Or in which sport you are referring to where second-rate domestic leagues are more popular than ones that include international players?
Learn to read, I never said anything that you claim I said.
I said the local leagues are present in all countries where the scene for the particular sport is big enough and that the purpose is to get young players into the game. I said nothing about number of people viewing those small leagues. That was different point. Most people watching ManU/Arsenal games do not watch for the quality of play but because it is "their" team. And more people watch nation vs nation games than ManU/Arsenal vs whoever games.
|
I'm a fan of watching the highest quality games and watching foreigners vs koreans because there is always the possibility of upsets. With that said I think it's better for the scene as a whole to isolate the regions because I think general viewers want to see the players and personalities they like remain competitive.
|
Their is a dual problem with competitive gaming here. People want to to see compelling personalities (that means speaking English), and they want to see compelling games (that means a higher skill ceiling). Koreans give you half of that equation (incredible skill ceiling), players like IdrA give you the other half (compelling personalities). Only a few players give you both - guys like Grubby and TLO. But we all know Grubby and TLO aren't going to be competetive at the GSL, it just isn't going to happen during SCII, maybe for SCIII (to be released in 10 years or so!). It's a real conundrum! IF SCII loses NA and EU, paychecks go down, interest is down, and we are left waaaaaaaiting for SCIII. There has to be a smart solution that gives foreigners a chance to showcase skills, while still allowing Koreans to dominate their scene as well.
|
As a fan of real sports like hockey (yes I'm Canadian) I will use that as an example.
During the regular season I primarily watch my home team play (Vancouver Canucks). I don't watch them because they are the best team, I watch them because I have come to care about the team and its players. I've gone to see some home games in person and I can share in the team experience with fellow locals.
In hockey there are local divisions of teams made up of teams that are geographically near each other. The winner of each division is guaranteed a playoff spot even if it pushes out one of lower placing teams within another division that may have had higher overall points total. 16 total teams in playoffs with 4 total divisions each conference east/west so 4 teams seeded are the division winners and next 4 are highest point totals per conference. Both conferences play until there is one winner in each conference that face off against each other for the Stanley cup.
Now during playoffs even if my team doesn't make it or is ousted in the first round I will watch as many games as I can to enjoy the best of the best play the sport has to offer.
The local competition keeps me interested all year long and the playoffs I want to see the best of the best and cheer for my team until they are out then decide who I will cheer for based on what I saw of the other teams up to that point.
I think almost all sports have a fanbase such as this and I believe a similar setup would benefit SC2.
|
Vatican City State582 Posts
On April 04 2013 17:49 mrRoflpwn wrote:Show nested quote +This is what I think is the best solutions, in WCS 13 players are seeded from Korea and 2 players from EU and 1 player from NA. This means it is balanced between the regions compared to their skill. And also for Koreans not an handicap, and the need to fly over to compete. This is a troll post i think. I mean I cant really name more than 2 good europeans who can compete with the best koreans, and i cant name a single NA player that can but still, people want to see hometown favorites dude.
Stephano and Naniwa, and Scarlett(she just crushed Mvp in GSTL). Now, shut up troll
|
Vatican City State582 Posts
On April 07 2013 00:51 sambo400 wrote:
Its such a mistake to think people watch because they want to see the best games when Idra gets 10k stream views at a time.
well, there are different types of fans, and thus people watch different things for different reasons; some people prefer action, others enjoy comedy. Idra's stream is like a comedy in a sense - people watch Idra, because he throws fits like a kid and cusses people out. If he never did that, nobody would even watch his stream.
|
No, the problem with the foreigners is...for example...Team EG: Paying their players a lot of money for almost no results. If i was in EG...and i was getting paid a HUGE salary like idra was...id sit around all ay too and not get better...u get paid the same no mater what...
Now korean teams, don't get paid quite as handsomely. They have to earn their place in the SC2 world, That is why the difference is skill is so high. Koreans who come to america for easy money eventually fall off the radar and die out. Look at Revival...Amazing zerg player...Joins EG, sucks ass, doesn't practice as hard as he used to...and thats it for him.
|
On April 07 2013 01:56 HuKPOWA wrote:
No, the problem with the foreigners is...for example...Team EG: Paying their players a lot of money for almost no results. If i was in EG...and i was getting paid a HUGE salary like idra was...id sit around all ay too and not get better...u get paid the same no mater what...
Now korean teams, don't get paid quite as handsomely. They have to earn their place in the SC2 world, That is why the difference is skill is so high. Koreans who come to america for easy money eventually fall off the radar and die out. Look at Revival...Amazing zerg player...Joins EG, sucks ass, doesn't practice as hard as he used to...and thats it for him.
Their result are the several thousand viewers on the stream, promoting the sponsors.
Also, why should they live in a teamhouse in korea? For the food and the bunkbeds? Maybe thats enough for korean teens, but if you grow up in america or europa you are used to something better. Hell, the room I had during my service in the army had more space than the rooms I see in some teamhouse videos.
Add to that the feeling of living far from friends and family, next to noone seems to speak english and its expensive.
If I would be an american or european new player, I would like REGIONAL tournaments. Foreign teams (or tournament organisators) flying around koreans to grab the prize money is just stupid. For global events, sure. But not for an american championship. I could meet all the americans on the ladder and get better by playing against them, this only works until you reached a certain skillcap.
Now I visit a tournament, get paired against some GSL pro from korea in the first round and I'm out. Yay. I'm sure many local people will choose this way now. Oh wait, in the long run they will just switch to a game that offers more to the local scene.
Esport growth does not matter in korea. It grows (and matters financially) in the "west". If every tournament gets turned into a gsl, you will not get 60k viewers (let alone more). You'll get maybe 30k. (Exceptions apply to huge fan favourites, like MC/MKP, or Flash, to name a few).
|
On April 07 2013 00:49 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 00:39 StarBrift wrote:
What a defeatist attitude Catz has. Anyone CAN win any tournament. You just need to play the game very seriously 12+,hours every day for years and work your way through the hierarchy of the top teams. Koreans are better because they work harder and mroe efficiently. The talent that arises in korea is only at such a level because their culture/team structure promotes insanely hard work. And how did they get to that point ? By having time to develop that infrastructure. They did not have to exclude others as there were no "others" when they were developing their scene. Frankly I think the issue is not so much the whole foreign scene, more NA scene. EU scene seems to have enough infrastructure in place to possibly survive. NA one is getting less and less competitive as time goes on.
I don't necessarily agree with what you say. There are serveral NA top players that do well and practise hard. Just because some of the more famous or "older school" players aren't doing well (like catz for example) doesn't mean that NA is doomed. It just means tht some of the bigger profile players aren't putting as much effort and dedication into it as say Scarlet.
I think the biggest part of the problem for people outside of korea is that they play the game with pre concieved notions. A korean will do what needs to be done, he will play the game in whatever way yields him a win. A foreigner is more likely to latch on to a style and call that a "better way to play". This makes koreans more free flowing and makes them find better ways quicker. And its not about the top pros only having this attitude. It's about an entire ladder conforming to these made up ideas of what is good and bad.
|
Canada11349 Posts
On April 07 2013 01:33 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 00:51 sambo400 wrote:
Its such a mistake to think people watch because they want to see the best games when Idra gets 10k stream views at a time. well, there are different types of fans, and thus people watch different things for different reasons; some people prefer action, others enjoy comedy. Idra's stream is like a comedy in a sense - people watch Idra, because he throws fits like a kid and cusses people out. If he never did that, nobody would even watch his stream.
Well that's just the point. There ARE fans who watch all these foreign streams even though they aren't the 'best possible play.' So if there was a tourney where all these foreigners that have big stream followings and they had a reasonable shot at taking first, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume these very same fans would probably come along for the ride? More so if it was a large concentration of these popular foreigners? I know I would.
Maybe it wouldn't draw in as many people as a MLG, but if they budgeted accordingly, it could be reasonably successful. Yeah, you won't get all the 'I only want to see the best possible play.' But you would never get them anyways- they would be fine if 100% of the tournament worldwide became 100% Koreans including open brackets. If it was best possible play. They're not your target audience. Ignore 'em.
|
On April 07 2013 02:55 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 01:33 dacimvrl wrote:On April 07 2013 00:51 sambo400 wrote:
Its such a mistake to think people watch because they want to see the best games when Idra gets 10k stream views at a time. well, there are different types of fans, and thus people watch different things for different reasons; some people prefer action, others enjoy comedy. Idra's stream is like a comedy in a sense - people watch Idra, because he throws fits like a kid and cusses people out. If he never did that, nobody would even watch his stream. Well that's just the point. There ARE fans who watch all these foreign streams even though they aren't the 'best possible play.' So if there was a tourney where all these foreigners that have big stream followings and they had a reasonable shot at taking first, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume these very same fans would probably come along for the ride? More so if it was a large concentration of these popular foreigners? I know I would. Maybe it wouldn't draw in as many people as a MLG, but if they budgeted accordingly, it could be reasonably successful. Yeah, you won't get all the 'I only want to see the best possible play.' But you would never get them anyways- they would be fine if 100% of the tournament worldwide became 100% Koreans including open brackets. If it was best possible play. They're not your target audience. Ignore 'em.
130K saw EU WCS at a time where tournament stream numbers was down. It was one of the highest watched tournaments of the year. So yea ill say there is a huge market
On April 07 2013 02:58 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Any claim that people wouldnt watch an American only Tourny or a French only [etc] is shot down by regional and collegial leagues in sports. People arent just interested in the highest level of play. In fact, the people who watch sports for the high quality of play, over the cheering of a team, individual player, or a general storyline, are in the huge minority. I dont even watch sc2 games that arent of players I like or dont comport to a storyline. It doesnt matter how good it is, I just dont care.
Feel exactly the same as you. I watch where the players I am are fan of is playing
|
Any claim that people wouldnt watch an American only Tourny or a French only [etc] is shot down by regional and collegial leagues in sports. People arent just interested in the highest level of play. In fact, the people who watch sports for the high quality of play, over the cheering of a team, individual player, or a general storyline, are in the huge minority. I dont even watch sc2 games that arent of players I like or dont comport to a storyline. It doesnt matter how good it is, I just dont care.
|
I honestly don't understand people who can't enjoy a game unless it has the highest quality of play. My response to that is you don't care enough. I lead clan ETL, and it was tied 4-4 in a Gold, Platinum, Diamond clan war. TvT. The level of play was shit compared to any tournament, but I was having the time of my life casting it and was on the edge of my seat the entire time because I was emotionally invested in these players.
tgun vs MaFia at WCS Oceania. Game 3. One of the best games I have ever seen in my life. Not because of the level of play (although that was quite good) but simply because I was so into it because I wanted tgun to win so, so badly.
Why do I want foreigners to take on Koreans? Why do I like Australians battling international competition? Because I get great enjoyment and enjoy the games more because the result MATTERS TO ME. I love the underdog foreigners, and there's a sense of pride when any non-Korean manages to beat one. That's how StarCraft has always worked. That is how StarCraft will continue to work.
|
People seem to forget how to think outisde of what they want. Foreign players rise tournament views since they are more marketable than their korean counterparts, the viewership drops each time a "notable" foreign loses because non koreans can relate more with them and it's pretty clear that most foreigns go to tournaments as underdogs, that storyline gets more views than just high level play (even if you prefer high level play it's a fact).
Why does Anna Kournikova got a lot of recognition while doing nothing in tennis? Marketable attributes, people payed a lot to see her play just because of her looks, and because they read about her or saw her on any kind of media. Why does IdrA's stream mantains with 8k viewers even if he's just eating a sandwich? People love that because it's easy to relate to. Why does reddit looks like Perez Hilton of Starcraft? Same reasons. Economic stability doesn't really depend on just results.
You need to start creating infrastructure for foreign to start competing head to head with most koreans, it's not a defeatist attitude, it's a pretty down to earth one, and you can also see it within the foreign scene, there are many other teams that remain virtually unknown (compared to other reknown foreign teams) because their option is to stand out in a pool of higher level foreign and koreans, and even if they train 12+ hours a day, they WILL NOT get to the top anytime soon since those 12+ hours don't include practice with the best players in the world, koreans have that. The way to rise the bar is to give incentives to foreigns (a better chance to place high in a regional tournament), otherwise you're hoping to spend years of training in a sub par environment just to eventually face a top korean in a tournament and get demolished, as a progamer this has to be really frustrating. By creating regional tournaments you can give more exposure, give a reason for lower players to work towards winning those leagues and hopefully create the motivation required to step it up and start working towards winning vs koreans.
|
Some good scapegoating going on. Foreigners can't compete with Koreans --> Koreans' fault :|
|
So which major tournament is first going to take the risk of excluding/segregating Koreans at the cost of outrage from a large segment of the community, alienating Koreans, and uncertainty in how it influences viewer counts?
Who's going to do that just so that non-Koreans and foreigners can have a little bit more money in their pockets for their subpar skills and competitiveness? Who's going to do that just so foreign viewers can root for foreigners winning something while knowing that the tournament was designed as so?
For tournaments, viewer counts and attracting sponsors should be, and is, a higher priority than just satisfying a portion of this community wanting a foreigner to win...something.
|
On April 07 2013 03:22 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
Some good scapegoating going on. Foreigners can't compete with Koreans --> Koreans' fault :|
I don't see any of that going on. I see people talking about why they want to see foreigners play vs Koreans, and people that want to see the "best possible games" talking about why they want to see just that regardless of who it is. My answer has been that I'm not interested in Koreans all the time because I want to care about the players which tends to mean that the players I'm watching need to be interesting and have personality. That's not placing blame on the Koreans, that's simply stating what I prefer.
That being said, I have no problem with a Korean like MC or Losira/Kangho dominating a foreign tournament because I am emotionally attached to them (MC is interesting as shit, Losira/Kangho talks to me in tweets sometimes). I want them to win, I want them to be successful. It would be like a guy from my school playing on the worst team in the NFL. I like the dude, I want him to play and win, even if he was the 4th string backup kicker.
On April 07 2013 03:32 BirdKiller wrote:
So which major tournament is first going to take the risk of excluding/segregating Koreans at the cost of outrage from a large segment of the community, alienating Koreans, and uncertainty in how it influences viewer counts?
Who's going to do that just so that non-Koreans and foreigners can have a little bit more money in their pockets for their subpar skills and competitiveness? Who's going to do that just so foreign viewers can root for foreigners winning something while knowing that the tournament was designed as so?
For tournaments, viewer counts and attracting sponsors should be, and is, a higher priority than just satisfying a portion of this community wanting a foreigner to win...something.
I think you underestimate the numbers here. I'd put money on viewership for foreigners being higher than viewership for "the best possible play". and think that a tournament who put on a mainly foreigner event (maybe a couple Koreans) would do considerably better with viewer counts and sponsors than the current norm.
And to answer your first question, I think MLG is going to be glad to put on NA events that are mostly foreigner, with the few Koreans that decide to come over to NA. I think if it was an only NA resident tournament, it would still do phenomenally well. I think they'll be pleased with the money.
|
On April 07 2013 00:55 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 00:43 rename wrote:On April 07 2013 00:24 mcc wrote:On April 06 2013 22:15 xAdra wrote:On April 06 2013 21:51 quebecman77 wrote:
im a 8 year broodwar player and i was someone who was alway saying let the best player in the world win , no matter where he from , reward skill , not where they are from , this was the offcial view about e-sport in broodwar , and let face it , in the end this was korean vs korean only.
and sadly the same start to happen in starcraft 2 , they are far less foreigner who can win vs korean , many top foreigner just stop playing , they give up , no one come after them . almost zero new blood , because you need money to live in this world and who want to enter it if you know you will win nothing ?
that cute to be the best of the best in a computer game but in the end MONEY of course motivate you .
TAKE THE KOREAN FOR THIS EXEMPLE , why they are not happy with the new blizzard league ? this clearly go with the mindset ''be the best in the world'' well no , they whine , they will get less money and they go full emo . they will even travel for go where the competive scene more easy for them.....
while the top foreigner are in this boat since 1-2 year now , they practice , get no money , win no tournament .
that would be about time from the people who want E-SPORT to grow to support it , are you guy blind ?
for e-sport to grow you need fans , for a fans the bond more strong when the guy come from your country , talk your langage and so on , THAT THE SAME IN ANY SPORT .
for grow e-sport you need people who dream about becoming a pro gamer , see people win tournament , get money and fame , you think people outside korea will want to become a pro gamer 2 year from now , when they see only korean win tournament after tournament ?
and honestly let talk about quality of the game and skill , top foreigner can make game fun to watch and some time way more fun to watch that watching a 1vs1 vs 2 korean , and honestly for most casual watcher they cant pick the skill diference from a top foreigner and a korean . that realy YOUR BEST REASON ??!
with your guy mindset of ''be the best of the best'' will kill e-sport and make starcraft 2 just like broodwar , mark my word because im going archive it and quote this topic 2 year from now ( hope this will be ok to bump a old post lol ? ) when the e-sport start to be only active in korea .
but this view dont help grow e-sport , Besides the obvious point that the grammar, spelling and general punctuation in this post are completely out of whack, I have to say: I enjoy watching 2 Koreans play. It's just that those of you who are so incredibly patriotic that you claim koreans are "emotionless', "faceless" and other terms. I don't mind if you guys want an all American or whatever tournament, even though I'm definitely not going to watch it. Too boring with the low skill. Heck, an all EU tournament would be way better, though the level of play will never approach even GSL code A except for a select few players like Stephano. For those of you who say "top 8 all-korean finishes are boring!" Well then I say: you are just being close minded, because as someone who watches every GSL, the Korean scene is filled with both personality and skill. And you are trying to rationally analyze something which is irrational. You need to accept that number of people who watch games (not only SC2) for the quality of games is minimal. In any popular sport rooting for local/national players, favourite teams always trumps the quality of play. Without foreign scene number of foreign viewers will be minimal. If you are ok with that, I see no problem, but then you cannot expect the scene to ever become anything bigger. Every country that matters in the big sports has national leagues (at least on the youth level) that are heavily restricted for foreign players by rule or practical obstacles. This is to ensure that there is enough young players to enter the sport. Being best in the world is process for many years of growth and keeping motivation for such a long period of time is hard. You do not need a lot of money necessarily, but you NEED stepping stones, where young player can have a goal to win national tournament before trying to become best in the world. Without this motivation nearly everyone will give up, and those that remain are not necessarily those that could become the best, there is no such correlation. Do soccer matches that include teams with only UK players get more views over there compared to say ManU/Arsenal or whatever? Or in which sport you are referring to where second-rate domestic leagues are more popular than ones that include international players? Learn to read, I never said anything that you claim I said. I said the local leagues are present in all countries where the scene for the particular sport is big enough and that the purpose is to get young players into the game. I said nothing about number of people viewing those small leagues. That was different point. Most people watching ManU/Arsenal games do not watch for the quality of play but because it is "their" team. And more people watch nation vs nation games than ManU/Arsenal vs whoever games.
Sorry, i was basically replying to "In any popular sport rooting for local/national players, favourite teams always trumps the quality of play." which just stops being true at some point when the skill disparity becomes gigantic. For example people over here watch UEFA way more compared to domestic leagues.
Local leagues are nice and necessary, but others can fill the role ( WCG does somethat, NASL switches back?).
If WCS was completely locked based on your nationality then Stephano/Demuslim + many other europeans would also have to go to europe. Naniwa/Huk would have to return home. Many people who are overseas for non-starcraft reasons could not participate at all.
The skill difference between different regions would become even larger and it would be even harder for player from NA to become the one of the best in the world.
|
Because we're racist and want to see white people win rather than seeing the best players win.
User was warned for this post
|
On April 07 2013 03:51 Noobity wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 03:22 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
Some good scapegoating going on. Foreigners can't compete with Koreans --> Koreans' fault :| I don't see any of that going on. I see people talking about why they want to see foreigners play vs Koreans, and people that want to see the "best possible games" talking about why they want to see just that regardless of who it is. My answer has been that I'm not interested in Koreans all the time because I want to care about the players which tends to mean that the players I'm watching need to be interesting and have personality. That's not placing blame on the Koreans, that's simply stating what I prefer. That being said, I have no problem with a Korean like MC or Losira/Kangho dominating a foreign tournament because I am emotionally attached to them (MC is interesting as shit, Losira/Kangho talks to me in tweets sometimes). I want them to win, I want them to be successful. It would be like a guy from my school playing on the worst team in the NFL. I like the dude, I want him to play and win, even if he was the 4th string backup kicker. Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 03:32 BirdKiller wrote:
So which major tournament is first going to take the risk of excluding/segregating Koreans at the cost of outrage from a large segment of the community, alienating Koreans, and uncertainty in how it influences viewer counts?
Who's going to do that just so that non-Koreans and foreigners can have a little bit more money in their pockets for their subpar skills and competitiveness? Who's going to do that just so foreign viewers can root for foreigners winning something while knowing that the tournament was designed as so?
For tournaments, viewer counts and attracting sponsors should be, and is, a higher priority than just satisfying a portion of this community wanting a foreigner to win...something. I think you underestimate the numbers here. I'd put money on viewership for foreigners being higher than viewership for "the best possible play". and think that a tournament who put on a mainly foreigner event (maybe a couple Koreans) would do considerably better with viewer counts and sponsors than the current norm. And to answer your first question, I think MLG is going to be glad to put on NA events that are mostly foreigner, with the few Koreans that decide to come over to NA. I think if it was an only NA resident tournament, it would still do phenomenally well. I think they'll be pleased with the money.
Your answer to the question is very lacking. To say "I think...", "I'd put money on....", "and think that a tournament...", "I think if it was only an...." doesn't provide any better picture to the risk that major tournaments face with this question. Your answer and response is generic and a blanket statement of "Excluding Koreans will be better for tournaments to attract more viewers" without providing any details or explanations behind it.
You only pointed out the obvious positive outcome of the risk, but didn't mention if it was feasible or probable compared to losing viewers and Korean participation in future events.
To be specific, explain that I somehow "underestimate the numbers..." here?
|
I honestly don't see why people are arguing about this. Blizzard has put up money to set up "foreigner tournaments", and whether it succeed or not depends on how the audience reacts. If there are lots of people who likes to see foreigners and it was a resounding success, then more of it will come, and it vindicates to the other organizers that there is such a market and will attempt to tap into it. If it turns out to be a flop because people do not want to see disappointing, passive play (Thorzain vs Killer was painful), then the current WCS will die in 1 year and no lasting harm will be done, and nobody except the players will whine about Koreans coming over and taking money ever again.
|
It's odd to me that regional leagues would be so offensive to so many when they're the norm for other competitive stages. Foreigners were barely finding their feet before we decided they were irrelevant and didn't deserve any money.
I'd watch the shit out an NA only tournament, and I'll continue watching the shit out of GSL and Proleague.
|
I would actually be fine with WCS having 10 korean seeds or something out of 16 to see the highest level of play and reward the best country in SC. I also want koreans to continue attending international tournaments like MLG, DH and IEM.
But that doesn't mean we can't have regional/national competissions. Here in germany and many EU countries we have the EPS /thanks ESL!!!!!) and I love watching it and I hope it never dies. Just like the premier league or the Bundesliga in football. Now if koreans move to germany to compete in EPS that's fine too, of course. Just like foreigners competing in GSL.
|
How about people take the time to learn about a foreign culture that has a vibrant e-sports culture and a deep history of Starcraft, then maybe they would be interested in the individual koreans that make up the 'faceless korean' group. I understand casual sports fans and the need to cheer for your tribe and overcome the dreaded 'foreigner'. It still disgusts me, it's the worst elements of our history justified by its entertainment value.
|
WCS is an international competition, like the world cup. Brazil can make 3 equally skilled top teams but they can only send one squad to compete. It's essentially the same.
On a side note, it's embarrassing that it's been so long and foreigners still can't compete.
|
On April 07 2013 04:37 zefreak wrote:
How about people take the time to learn about a foreign culture that has a vibrant e-sports culture and a deep history of Starcraft, then maybe they would be interested in the individual koreans that make up the 'faceless korean' group. I understand casual sports fans and the need to cheer for your tribe and overcome the dreaded 'foreigner'. It still disgusts me, it's the worst elements of our history justified by its entertainment value.
Yeah, let's blame the viewers for a lack of good translated content. Real smart. Wanna know who isn't scene as a "faceless korean"? The ones that speak english, the ones with well-translated interviews, the ones with media released about them. But clearly it's the fans' fault for not taking the time to learn Korean and troll through message boards and twitter.
And yeah, cultural identity is the worst elements of our history. Not like it's the backbone for society, civilization, charity...
|
Man, I can't wait until WCS NA starts so we can end this circular discussion and just watch SC2. Then we can move on to important topics, like which caster pair is most bias and best, the clothing of the women at the event and who was rude to who by not GGing or shaking hands.
You know, the important stuff we discuss.
|
On April 07 2013 04:05 Luepert wrote:
Because we're racist and want to see white people win rather than seeing the best players win.
Welcome to the conversation when you want to add something constructive feel free to do so.
On April 07 2013 04:37 zefreak wrote:
How about people take the time to learn about a foreign culture that has a vibrant e-sports culture and a deep history of Starcraft, then maybe they would be interested in the individual koreans that make up the 'faceless korean' group. I understand casual sports fans and the need to cheer for your tribe and overcome the dreaded 'foreigner'. It still disgusts me, it's the worst elements of our history justified by its entertainment value.
How about you take the time to understand what sport is. And understand what nationalism can do to promote a sport. We are at a crossroad in the starcraft scene. We either continue to do what we have done for the last 10 years and have another little "Brood War community" complaining about why they cant crow the scene. Or we actually start promoting Esport and that got nothing to do with cultural understanding but everything to do with National pride to get the casuals. Btw cultural understanding goes both ways tbh
|
On April 07 2013 06:10 Benjamin99 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 04:05 Luepert wrote:
Because we're racist and want to see white people win rather than seeing the best players win. Welcome to the conversation when you want to add something constructive feel free to do so. Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 04:37 zefreak wrote:
How about people take the time to learn about a foreign culture that has a vibrant e-sports culture and a deep history of Starcraft, then maybe they would be interested in the individual koreans that make up the 'faceless korean' group. I understand casual sports fans and the need to cheer for your tribe and overcome the dreaded 'foreigner'. It still disgusts me, it's the worst elements of our history justified by its entertainment value. How about you take the time to understand what sport is. And understand what nationalism can do to promote a sport. We are at a crossroad in the starcraft scene. We either continue to do what we have done for the last 10 years and have another little "Brood War community" complaining about why they cant crow the scene. Or we actually start promoting Esport and that got nothing to do with cultural understanding but everything to do with National pride to get the casuals. Btw cultural understanding goes both ways tbh
It's almost as if NASL never happened!
|
On April 07 2013 06:23 Cyrak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 06:10 Benjamin99 wrote:On April 07 2013 04:05 Luepert wrote:
Because we're racist and want to see white people win rather than seeing the best players win. Welcome to the conversation when you want to add something constructive feel free to do so. On April 07 2013 04:37 zefreak wrote:
How about people take the time to learn about a foreign culture that has a vibrant e-sports culture and a deep history of Starcraft, then maybe they would be interested in the individual koreans that make up the 'faceless korean' group. I understand casual sports fans and the need to cheer for your tribe and overcome the dreaded 'foreigner'. It still disgusts me, it's the worst elements of our history justified by its entertainment value. How about you take the time to understand what sport is. And understand what nationalism can do to promote a sport. We are at a crossroad in the starcraft scene. We either continue to do what we have done for the last 10 years and have another little "Brood War community" complaining about why they cant crow the scene. Or we actually start promoting Esport and that got nothing to do with cultural understanding but everything to do with National pride to get the casuals. Btw cultural understanding goes both ways tbh It's almost as if NASL never happened!
As I recall NASL was very popular in season 1 and 2 and had a decline as soon season 3 happen. So I got no idea what you talking about and btw ill say it again 130k viewers watched WCS EU and made it one of the highest watched tournaments in 2012. How many Korean players was there?
|
On April 07 2013 04:37 zefreak wrote:
How about people take the time to learn about a foreign culture that has a vibrant e-sports culture and a deep history of Starcraft, then maybe they would be interested in the individual koreans that make up the 'faceless korean' group. I understand casual sports fans and the need to cheer for your tribe and overcome the dreaded 'foreigner'. It still disgusts me, it's the worst elements of our history justified by its entertainment value.
Let me go ahead and say that I'm only interested in the korean scene, was and always have been. I would trade all the shows we have now for a BW OSL / MSL setup. But lets talk about the what made it special why I think you're right and everybody else is as well.
Coverage. Let's be honest here. We TL users don't get the same coverage as we used to. While you can still read winners interviews there are very few special interviews and translated shows. I'm talking translation of Old Boy and Bnet Attack and various other snippets. Korean neticens comment translations. TL had (and still has btw) some great translators who brought the korean scene to us but with SC2 everything changed considerably.
Now it's in no way negative that the "foreign" scene copied some of the elements of the olden days and on top of that brought new ways to entertain. That's still what the majority is here for and that's perfectly alright. The scene takes itself and the "e-sports" topic to serious (way to serious) at times but even that just shows how big it got.
What I think we lost, to put it into words, the charm of the korean broodwar scene is something that got rebuild in maybe a bit different way and sometimes just at a slow pace in the foreign scene. But ultimately once it's all set and done it's about what every individual wants out of SC2.
There are so many factors at play, which I'm sure you're aware of as well. The fact that SC2 didn't take over the korean pro BW scene by storm. The back and forth with blizzard and kespa. The day9 dailies that actively seek out lower league players participation (the "what you CAN do not the what these machines are doing you will never be able to"). Community favourites invited to tournaments despite them often times bringing disappointing games. And so forth.
Lots of things changed. Some for the better, some for the worse. Now I'm more interested in the highest level of competition. But it is the koreans own fault. If you want your players to have the same e-value as high as some of the other individuals, some camera closeup and hardcore good play wont be enough anymore. I mean cmon in this time and age, with such great teams, with such great players and such great history it should be time to a) think global and b) push your players to the front. Let them share. Translate for them. Connect with the scene. It's not exactly magic.
|
Somehow I think white people would not complain if white people were winning instead of koreans winning.
:S
"Hey, ice hockey is too winter country dominated.. We need to make it snow in the equator so winter sports can grow"
|
On April 08 2013 11:12 lazyitachi wrote:
Somehow I think white people would not complain if white people were winning instead of koreans winning.
:S
"Hey, ice hockey is too winter country dominated.. We need to make it snow in the equator so winter sports can grow"
This is so true. As part of my job, I deal mainly with Europeans/Americans and one thing ive found in common is that they believe they should be better than other races in every aspect. Just saying ^^
|
On April 08 2013 11:12 lazyitachi wrote:
Somehow I think white people would not complain if white people were winning instead of koreans winning.
:S
"Hey, ice hockey is too winter country dominated.. We need to make it snow in the equator so winter sports can grow"
You are comparing a single country to pretty much the rest of the world........... at least in terms of E-sports.
|
You don't even need to assign a race to this trait. I doubt Koreans are complaining that only Koreans are doing well in GSL. People tend to not complain if their own country/race is winning.
If I'm wrong about this, and Koreans actually do complain that the GSL needs more good foreigners in it, I retract this post. I don't speak Korean or live in Korea, so I don't actually know what they think. I'm making an estimate based on human nature, not stating what I think is a fact.
|
On April 08 2013 11:23 Salivanth wrote:
You don't even need to assign a race to this trait. I doubt Koreans are complaining that only Koreans are doing well in GSL. People tend to not complain if their own country/race is winning.
If I'm wrong about this, and Koreans actually do complain that the GSL needs more good foreigners in it, I retract this post. I don't speak Korean or live in Korea, so I don't actually know what they think. I'm making an estimate based on human nature, not stating what I think is a fact.
There are many interviews with Korean pros who lament the success of the Koreans in SC2. The most recent that comes to mind was the TL IPL5 behind the scenes video with Liquid`Hero.
|
Northern Ireland25075 Posts
On April 08 2013 11:18 mongmong wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 11:12 lazyitachi wrote:
Somehow I think white people would not complain if white people were winning instead of koreans winning.
:S
"Hey, ice hockey is too winter country dominated.. We need to make it snow in the equator so winter sports can grow" This is so true. As part of my job, I deal mainly with Europeans/Americans and one thing ive found in common is that they believe they should be better than other races in every aspect. Just saying ^^
I really don't feel that is the case, I guess with such a large E-sports scene many of us just feel mystified that there's not a few foreigners who are of that level. Hardcore Korean dominance, with a little sprinkling of foreigners would be great to see.
That said, for me the issue was never 'The Koreans', but more the fear of a dominance from Koreans overall, but with different names every week. Thankfully this doesn't appear to be the case, there's still a definable sense that, while most Koreans are more skilled than their foreign counterparts, there is still a top-tier of elite Koreans who are consistently playing in tournaments.
It's hard to feel a kinship with players if you don't hear from them, they show up at an MLG, do well and then disappear again. Thankfully that's not been the case, and we get exposed to a bit of the personalities of the players and can pick our favourites without them rotating incessantly.
|
On April 08 2013 11:12 lazyitachi wrote:
Somehow I think white people would not complain if white people were winning instead of koreans winning.
:S
"Hey, ice hockey is too winter country dominated.. We need to make it snow in the equator so winter sports can grow"
A few things here. The "white people" comment really ignores all of the other races outside of Korea. From my experience as an American, we tend to get behind Americans competing internationally regardless of race. This goes all the way back to the 1930s when Joe Louis boxed internationally.
For an example where Americans are unhappy that Americans were dominate at a sport, look at baseball. It used to be an olympic sport, but Americans won it all, so it was canned. Now Americans wish the world was better so we could continue to have baseball represented at the world's most prestigious sporting event because no one actually cares about the world baseball classic.
For your winter sport example, the winter olympics got WAY more interesting when Jamaica showed up with a bobsled team back in 1988.
|
I think the problem a lot of people assume is that Koreans are always, immediately better than Foreigners. However, a good example of how that is false is how MaNa recently all-killed a pretty formidable Korean team in the Acer cup, beating HyuN twice. It's not so much that Foreigners can't compete well with Koreans. I think it's more that Koreans have greater support and infrastructure to allow their success. Whereas many of the premiere leagues like GSL are held in Korea, which is a home-field advantage to Koreans (meaning don't have to pay nearly as much money to train/participate in Korea nor do they experience jet-lag of any kind) and the League is also taken a lot more like an olympic competition than one you'd see elsewhere. From my perspective, MLG and even DreamHack feel a lot more commercial professional than professional professional.
|
To all the *this is racism* people out there.
Black and Latino and Asian do exist outside of korea you know... And most of the ones I know want to see foreigners win, white or not... (the only exception being a old-time BW addict, still playing BW at times)
|
On April 08 2013 11:18 mongmong wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 11:12 lazyitachi wrote:
Somehow I think white people would not complain if white people were winning instead of koreans winning.
:S
"Hey, ice hockey is too winter country dominated.. We need to make it snow in the equator so winter sports can grow" This is so true. As part of my job, I deal mainly with Europeans/Americans and one thing ive found in common is that they believe they should be better than other races in every aspect. Just saying ^^
I find it extremely telling that you single out Europeans and Americans. Personally, I've found arrogance to be universal across all cultures.
|
Moreover European/American being a *race* doesn't even make sense. It is perhaps valid in the case of Korea (I don't know too much about that country so I can't say), but it's nonsensical for EU and NA,
|
On April 07 2013 06:04 Plansix wrote:
Man, I can't wait until WCS NA starts so we can end this circular discussion and just watch SC2. Then we can move on to important topics, like which caster pair is most bias and best, the clothing of the women at the event and who was rude to who by not GGing or shaking hands.
You know, the important stuff we discuss.
There was this video called TLOwange that got me into teamliquid. I remember in the video, Chill said that "If the Marauder boots change colors, we'll discuss that!" or something like that. I got to see how true that statement was after time. It's really crazy (to me) how .... I don't even have the right word -- just HOW this place can be.
|
On April 08 2013 11:37 Branman wrote:
For an example where Americans are unhappy that Americans were dominate at a sport, look at baseball. It used to be an olympic sport, but Americans won it all, so it was canned. Now Americans wish the world was better so we could continue to have baseball represented at the world's most prestigious sporting event because no one actually cares about the world baseball classic.
This BBC editor claims otherwise. I looked at the records on Wiki, and while US isn't sucking as hard as the editor claimed, they certainly weren't dominating.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22028316
|
it's what people want to see, it's a race war, they want to see their favourite white guy supressing their korean invaders.
|
On April 08 2013 14:37 FireMonkey wrote:
it's what people want to see, it's a race war, they want to see their favourite white guy supressing their korean invaders.
Well... no... just no. This opinion is... trollish at best?
|
On April 08 2013 16:44 freakhill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 14:37 FireMonkey wrote:
it's what people want to see, it's a race war, they want to see their favourite white guy supressing their korean invaders. Well... no... just no. This opinion is... trollish at best?
it's fact, look at the statistics, all the tourneys featured koreans and non koreans, all get signifigantly more views than solely korean tournaments, code s gets ~20-30k views average, mlg got 80k views at one point. When huk and stephano were in code s last season, those particular nights got more views than the others...because people want to see the white guy taking home the glory, going to korean lands and metaphorically stealing their home's prize. It's an irony thing because in sc2 scene white people are the minority so as i said more fuel for the race war.
|
On April 08 2013 17:22 FireMonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 16:44 freakhill wrote:On April 08 2013 14:37 FireMonkey wrote:
it's what people want to see, it's a race war, they want to see their favourite white guy supressing their korean invaders. Well... no... just no. This opinion is... trollish at best? it's fact, look at the statistics, all the tourneys featured koreans and non koreans, all get signifigantly more views than solely korean tournaments, code s gets ~20-30k views average, mlg got 80k views at one point. When huk and stephano were in code s last season, those particular nights got more views than the others...because people want to see the white guy taking home the glory, going to korean lands and metaphorically stealing their home's prize. It's an irony thing because in sc2 scene white people are the minority so as i said more fuel for the race war.
That also have to do with code S being on like every week (cept for off seasons) and MLG is only for one weekend like once every 2 months. The last MLG got 120k ~ views but all the white people lost by the first day already and it was all korean O_O
|
On April 08 2013 17:27 phodacbiet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 17:22 FireMonkey wrote:On April 08 2013 16:44 freakhill wrote:On April 08 2013 14:37 FireMonkey wrote:
it's what people want to see, it's a race war, they want to see their favourite white guy supressing their korean invaders. Well... no... just no. This opinion is... trollish at best? it's fact, look at the statistics, all the tourneys featured koreans and non koreans, all get signifigantly more views than solely korean tournaments, code s gets ~20-30k views average, mlg got 80k views at one point. When huk and stephano were in code s last season, those particular nights got more views than the others...because people want to see the white guy taking home the glory, going to korean lands and metaphorically stealing their home's prize. It's an irony thing because in sc2 scene white people are the minority so as i said more fuel for the race war. That also have to do with code S being on like every week (cept for off seasons) and MLG is only for one weekend like once every 2 months. The last MLG got 120k ~ views but all the white people lost by the first day already and it was all korean O_O
those were koreans watching their race dominate the white man
|
On April 08 2013 17:22 FireMonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 16:44 freakhill wrote:On April 08 2013 14:37 FireMonkey wrote:
it's what people want to see, it's a race war, they want to see their favourite white guy supressing their korean invaders. Well... no... just no. This opinion is... trollish at best? it's fact, look at the statistics, all the tourneys featured koreans and non koreans, all get signifigantly more views than solely korean tournaments, code s gets ~20-30k views average, mlg got 80k views at one point. When huk and stephano were in code s last season, those particular nights got more views than the others...because people want to see the white guy taking home the glory, going to korean lands and metaphorically stealing their home's prize. It's an irony thing because in sc2 scene white people are the minority so as i said more fuel for the race war.
You're comparing GSL's 4-5 matches a day before the finals to a two day tournament.
|
On April 08 2013 17:56 FireMonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 17:27 phodacbiet wrote:On April 08 2013 17:22 FireMonkey wrote:On April 08 2013 16:44 freakhill wrote:On April 08 2013 14:37 FireMonkey wrote:
it's what people want to see, it's a race war, they want to see their favourite white guy supressing their korean invaders. Well... no... just no. This opinion is... trollish at best? it's fact, look at the statistics, all the tourneys featured koreans and non koreans, all get signifigantly more views than solely korean tournaments, code s gets ~20-30k views average, mlg got 80k views at one point. When huk and stephano were in code s last season, those particular nights got more views than the others...because people want to see the white guy taking home the glory, going to korean lands and metaphorically stealing their home's prize. It's an irony thing because in sc2 scene white people are the minority so as i said more fuel for the race war. That also have to do with code S being on like every week (cept for off seasons) and MLG is only for one weekend like once every 2 months. The last MLG got 120k ~ views but all the white people lost by the first day already and it was all korean O_O those were koreans watching their race dominate the white man
Which got knocked out by the first day cept for the white people lucky enough to run into other white people. The 100-120k were for the rest of the tourneys (sat/sunday) where it was for korean on korean action. Sure its interesting once in awhile to see a white guy get a chance to beat a korean, but nowadays its not because its just korean stomping. To be entertaining, the underdog needs to have a small chance of winning, in a bo5 the best you can hope these day is that the white guy take a game -.-
|
When looking into the big picture, the disparity of Korean vs Foreigner matchup comes mostly from inferior RTS background in western scene, im talking infrastructure, coaching, mentality.
To give some analogy, real world winter olympics are dominated by countries with long history of winning those, laziness is second-hand argument to throw around when it comes to statistics or history.
The fact is Korean Starcraft scene was always superior because they had a centered system (1 country, 1 culture, 1 language), they established their incentives (fame, being on TV, magazines, Esports venture into daily life) also strenghtened by the problems that make them more video-game centric (escapism coming from being in war with NK, education system and others).
We had few examples of domination in western E-sport scene, one that comes to my mind was Sweden in CS era 2001-2004/5 even when the domination is no longer there(like, 4 teams in the top5 teams are no longer always swedish), its still the most influential country in that particular game. As an active player in that period of time i remember how influential Swedish scene was to CS. They had at least 4 to 5 times more international-level players then other countries.
Now let's back to main topic, so called laziness is an argument you can throw in regard of few examples, Starcraft is +10 year old competition, and foreigners (look, we call the majority of the world foreigners, thats the BW legacy) were never good barring early era, where few people wanted to spend few years in Korea and eat/talk/behave like them (i'm looking at you Grrrr.../Elky/Leg etc. ;D)
The game may have changed, and it is crazy (as in crazy good) to see that western people started to cherish Korea dominated esport, maybe it is sustainable as opposed to BW, but in case of why BW didn't succed(in that regard) i would say the lack of media was the downfall, the true downfall was however a complete lack of care from Blizzard, cause BW was popular casual game back in the day but no one ever saw any incentives of doing it seriously, because the main incentives lied in Korea, behind the iron curtain of shitty early internet. There was no heroes to look up for, one of reasons why CS eclipsed over BW in western scene.
But, overlooking the danger of "repeating of BW" would be a mistake. When Blizzard announced they will make a global league they gave us some incentive, it is good, however i was sad, giving a fish when you need a fishing rod... is just going easy. Welcome to global league of Korean Starcraft, am I happy? Yes, but im well aware of that 50% of specators who would not tune in because of that.
|
On April 08 2013 17:56 FireMonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 17:27 phodacbiet wrote:On April 08 2013 17:22 FireMonkey wrote:On April 08 2013 16:44 freakhill wrote:On April 08 2013 14:37 FireMonkey wrote:
it's what people want to see, it's a race war, they want to see their favourite white guy supressing their korean invaders. Well... no... just no. This opinion is... trollish at best? it's fact, look at the statistics, all the tourneys featured koreans and non koreans, all get signifigantly more views than solely korean tournaments, code s gets ~20-30k views average, mlg got 80k views at one point. When huk and stephano were in code s last season, those particular nights got more views than the others...because people want to see the white guy taking home the glory, going to korean lands and metaphorically stealing their home's prize. It's an irony thing because in sc2 scene white people are the minority so as i said more fuel for the race war. That also have to do with code S being on like every week (cept for off seasons) and MLG is only for one weekend like once every 2 months. The last MLG got 120k ~ views but all the white people lost by the first day already and it was all korean O_O those were koreans watching their race dominate the white man
The troll has spoken.
Let's just move on.
|
On April 08 2013 17:22 FireMonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 16:44 freakhill wrote:On April 08 2013 14:37 FireMonkey wrote:
it's what people want to see, it's a race war, they want to see their favourite white guy supressing their korean invaders. Well... no... just no. This opinion is... trollish at best? it's fact, look at the statistics, all the tourneys featured koreans and non koreans, all get signifigantly more views than solely korean tournaments, code s gets ~20-30k views average, mlg got 80k views at one point. When huk and stephano were in code s last season, those particular nights got more views than the others...because people want to see the white guy taking home the glory, going to korean lands and metaphorically stealing their home's prize. It's an irony thing because in sc2 scene white people are the minority so as i said more fuel for the race war.
hahaha
|
They should make EU version of GSL for instance in Amsterdam and NA in California and force every team make houses there. That's the only way to make WCS as successful, rise level of competition in these regions as GSL and Korean pro scene currently is.
|
On April 08 2013 19:21 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 17:56 FireMonkey wrote:On April 08 2013 17:27 phodacbiet wrote:On April 08 2013 17:22 FireMonkey wrote:On April 08 2013 16:44 freakhill wrote:On April 08 2013 14:37 FireMonkey wrote:
it's what people want to see, it's a race war, they want to see their favourite white guy supressing their korean invaders. Well... no... just no. This opinion is... trollish at best? it's fact, look at the statistics, all the tourneys featured koreans and non koreans, all get signifigantly more views than solely korean tournaments, code s gets ~20-30k views average, mlg got 80k views at one point. When huk and stephano were in code s last season, those particular nights got more views than the others...because people want to see the white guy taking home the glory, going to korean lands and metaphorically stealing their home's prize. It's an irony thing because in sc2 scene white people are the minority so as i said more fuel for the race war. That also have to do with code S being on like every week (cept for off seasons) and MLG is only for one weekend like once every 2 months. The last MLG got 120k ~ views but all the white people lost by the first day already and it was all korean O_O those were koreans watching their race dominate the white man The troll has spoken. Let's just move on.
God damn man, he is trolling so hard though. I mean, this is some high level stuff here.
|
Living as Korean programer must feel like you're missing out on life itself. No wonder foreigners don't practice as hard. People here want to watch the best possible games, even at the expense of a few kids having missed the best days of their life.
|
On April 04 2013 22:32 Technique wrote:
Well in football/ice hockey they also don't remove the top teams/players so that the bad team you are cheering for can win the league right?
On the other side of what you just said, though, that bottom-end team does get to play, they don't get replaced by better talent from Korea or wherever.
If you want to get e-sports started on a US or French or UK or Dutch or Canadian or <pick your country> basis, then people need people to cheer for that live there. Think of it like watching basketball in Europe. People watch their local leagues, and support them, and everything, but they *know* when the Olympics come every four years, the US NBA stars will almost always win. But does Europe want to invite NBA teams to their EU league championships, because they're 'the best'? No.
If you insist on always inviting the Koreans to every tournament, and letting them vacuum up all the prize money because they're the best...you'll never get SC2 started as an e-sport as anything but an adjunct to Korean e-sports; i.e. in five years, it'll be BW all over again, and only be an e-sport in Korea.
|
On April 09 2013 00:15 mavfin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 22:32 Technique wrote:
Well in football/ice hockey they also don't remove the top teams/players so that the bad team you are cheering for can win the league right? On the other side of what you just said, though, that bottom-end team does get to play, they don't get replaced by better talent from Korea or wherever. If you want to get e-sports started on a US or French or UK or Dutch or Canadian or <pick your country> basis, then people need people to cheer for that live there. Think of it like watching basketball in Europe. People watch their local leagues, and support them, and everything, but they *know* when the Olympics come every four years, the US NBA stars will almost always win. But does Europe want to invite NBA teams to their EU league championships, because they're 'the best'? No. If you insist on always inviting the Koreans to every tournament, and letting them vacuum up all the prize money because they're the best...you'll never get SC2 started as an e-sport as anything but an adjunct to Korean e-sports; i.e. in five years, it'll be BW all over again, and only be an e-sport in Korea.
To use my go-to example, The Red Sox had one of the worst seasons in their history last year. No one is talking about replacing them with a new team or not paying the players. There are leagues out there that are not the best in the world and they exist, if only for the purpose of providing the local population with games to go to and enjoy.
There are 1000 reasons to have local leagues and events and making enjoyable for people. The best in the world argument only holds weight on a global stage. Not all Esports leagues need to be global.
|
Without making a depressingly long post, I'd like to piggy-back off CatZ idea that he put forth in SotG.
...and by that I mean I'd like to completely agree with him. I don't see the need for EVERY league in SC2 to be global 100% of the time. That in and of itself just sounds boring to me. I love being able to watch people from X region play only against people from X region because the games are entirely unique (there are quite a few reasons why I like this, but I'll list just that for now). Yes I love seeing the very highest level of play, but I don't see why we can't have some disparities.
Now, should there be global leagues? Absolutely! In fact that could be some of the most exciting content. However, if you see that content every month, all the time, it gets supremely worn out. I don't know about you, but if the Olympics (only using this as a reference, I'm well aware athletes would tire and their skill-levels drop significantly) were every month, I doubt people would give half a shit after about a year. Let's get some variety in the SC2 scene- while still holding the best players up, but keeping in mind each region needs love too.
|
On April 06 2013 22:15 xAdra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 21:51 quebecman77 wrote:
im a 8 year broodwar player and i was someone who was alway saying let the best player in the world win , no matter where he from , reward skill , not where they are from , this was the offcial view about e-sport in broodwar , and let face it , in the end this was korean vs korean only.
and sadly the same start to happen in starcraft 2 , they are far less foreigner who can win vs korean , many top foreigner just stop playing , they give up , no one come after them . almost zero new blood , because you need money to live in this world and who want to enter it if you know you will win nothing ?
that cute to be the best of the best in a computer game but in the end MONEY of course motivate you .
TAKE THE KOREAN FOR THIS EXEMPLE , why they are not happy with the new blizzard league ? this clearly go with the mindset ''be the best in the world'' well no , they whine , they will get less money and they go full emo . they will even travel for go where the competive scene more easy for them.....
while the top foreigner are in this boat since 1-2 year now , they practice , get no money , win no tournament .
that would be about time from the people who want E-SPORT to grow to support it , are you guy blind ?
for e-sport to grow you need fans , for a fans the bond more strong when the guy come from your country , talk your langage and so on , THAT THE SAME IN ANY SPORT .
for grow e-sport you need people who dream about becoming a pro gamer , see people win tournament , get money and fame , you think people outside korea will want to become a pro gamer 2 year from now , when they see only korean win tournament after tournament ?
and honestly let talk about quality of the game and skill , top foreigner can make game fun to watch and some time way more fun to watch that watching a 1vs1 vs 2 korean , and honestly for most casual watcher they cant pick the skill diference from a top foreigner and a korean . that realy YOUR BEST REASON ??!
with your guy mindset of ''be the best of the best'' will kill e-sport and make starcraft 2 just like broodwar , mark my word because im going archive it and quote this topic 2 year from now ( hope this will be ok to bump a old post lol ? ) when the e-sport start to be only active in korea .
but this view dont help grow e-sport , Besides the obvious point that the grammar, spelling and general punctuation in this post are completely out of whack, I have to say:
Give the guy a pass. He's French Canadian; i.e. English is not his first language, and, indeed, he's *discouraged* from speaking English where he lives.
|
I would absolutely agree with the OP. Except Blizzard had something different in mind.
Blizzard sees the need for WCS to crown the "best" player in the world rather than allowing the GSL/OSL to do so (for commercial reasons and whatnot). I see their point, GSL/OSL will run every season in Korea and foreigners won't travel when their chances of getting anything is so low when competing against the Koreans. Many foreigners are arguably able to compete with Koreans at the top level or at least many viewers believe there are many foreigners at a top level able to compete with Koreans thus Blizzard wants to make it a reality for foreigners to compete against Koreans consistently and the WCS 2013 formed allows that.
I gotta admit at first I felt the WCS system was terribly unfair given the gap between skill level and the unfairness to the highly skilled Koreans who will suffer from losing chances to participate in major MLG and ESL tourneys which will become WCS however the number of them moving out and the seeding system by Blizzard seems to be quite fair in terms of giving them out to skilled players so far. I copped a lot of flak from TLers for my earlier comments about WCS and it's unfairness towards high level Koreans but I still stand by my comments.
Right now though, I'm quite happy to wait and see how things play out. A lot of good Koreans, albeit currently in Code B or dropped out of Code A to compete were given direct seeds. In my opinion this will ensure WCS America and Europe to retain a high level from the beginning and should theoretically over time achieve its goals.
|
On April 08 2013 17:22 FireMonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 16:44 freakhill wrote:On April 08 2013 14:37 FireMonkey wrote:
it's what people want to see, it's a race war, they want to see their favourite white guy supressing their korean invaders. Well... no... just no. This opinion is... trollish at best? it's fact, look at the statistics, all the tourneys featured koreans and non koreans, all get signifigantly more views than solely korean tournaments, code s gets ~20-30k views average, mlg got 80k views at one point. When huk and stephano were in code s last season, those particular nights got more views than the others...because people want to see the white guy taking home the glory, going to korean lands and metaphorically stealing their home's prize. It's an irony thing because in sc2 scene white people are the minority so as i said more fuel for the race war.
It's a fact that foreign audience wants to see foreigners compete with Koreans, not that they do so because some hypothetical "war against korean invaders"...
|
Because esports is a charity and it's run like one
|
SC2 is a not a sport until someone can dominate at it. We want to see someone win over and over. no one cares about lower leagues.
|
Right now it isn't about beating the Koreans. It is about creating an environment that has the backing to train foreigners to compete with Koreans.
Right now, a sponsor will look at the tournament results for an American Starcraft player and go, "well he got to the top 32 of a major tournament but that isn't winning." Top 32 sucks in comparison to top 8 or top 4 much less winning it. Korea is the only place where progaming is a NORMAL thing in society. The perception of gaming in Korea is a business, while in America it is the cause of school shootings.
The goal of this whole ordeal is to allow some foreigners to actually win major tournaments and get the sponsorships they need to live and breathe Starcraft. A foreigner can't live off of Starcraft at the moment, but providing someone a stable income and housing, they can and will be just as good as the Koreans because they will have the time and practice regiment they need to achieve it. There is nothing a Korean can do that any other striving eSport gamer can learn to do. They just need the opportunity to learn.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
