|
I liken the region locking to the same as if the 4 grand slams of tennis being region locked.
I wonder how much bullshit there'd be if the Australian only allowed Asian/Australian competitors. Roland Garros only French and Euros. Wimbledon only British and Euros, and the US Open only americans.
yes we'll get to see britain finally win a wimbledon again! yay... and a french player win a french! and an australian win the AUS, and roddick can finally win another US Open again... and then have Federer/Djokovic/Nadal arrive at the year end final competition, and have them take 1/2/3 over the other 4 slots given to the grandslam winners.
THATS EXACTLY what's happening here.
|
On April 05 2013 04:00 docvoc wrote:
This is hilarious. One of the biggest qualms people had with KeSPA is that they effectively made BW only for Korean gamers. The fact that people are complaining that we have too much integration is hilarious, before it was about how Foreigners could not play Koreans which drove the foreigner scene to not be nearly as good as the pro Korean scene. These rant OP's are getting more and more ridiculous.
What most people want is a middle ground obviously. Like exactly what you get in football.
The best sport of all -- football, is built on combining a domestic and international scene and getting the best of both worlds.
Sc2 should do the same and this plan does this.
|
On April 05 2013 04:04 Kazeyonoma wrote:
I liken the region locking to the same as if the 4 grand slams of tennis being region locked.
I wonder how much bullshit there'd be if the Australian only allowed Asian/Australian competitors. Roland Garros only French and Euros. Wimbledon only British and Euros, and the US Open only americans.
yes we'll get to see britain finally win a wimbledon again! yay... and a french player win a french! and an australian win the AUS, and roddick can finally win another US Open again... and then have Federer/Djokovic/Nadal arrive at the year end final competition, and have them take 1/2/3 over the other 4 slots given to the grandslam winners.
THATS EXACTLY what's happening here.
Football does exactly this.
|
On April 05 2013 02:23 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:20 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:12 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:27 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:09 Aterons_toss wrote:
If you are going to do that you might as well just make it Korea only because non will have a chance to qualify,this way you might have a few foreigners make it to ro8 or even ro4 if not than the 3 foreigners will surely have no chance.
And it won't "encourage" the growth of the scene, it will encourage the growth of Korea.
Even if you "take their money away" Europeans and Americans won't become Koreans, I could bet that for every foreign player if they had to chose between practicing for 14 hours or not making money they would get the hell out and go to college or find a job.
If you look at most of the successful foreigner in strategy game in general they are people like Grubby and Stephano, people that quite college for an year to try the game and became really good based on their tactics, that's why I would assume you see foreigners doing better at the beginning of BW, WC3 and SC2 than toward the end... because there is still shit to figure out.
I don't think 99% of the people you see playing starcraft outside of Korea have the mentality or live in the conditions where it would be enjoyable for them to literally train 10 to 14 hours a day for years and years to than ( sometimes ) come to fame and win about the same amount of money you would if you would have put all those hours into university ( do note that in most European countries going to a university is much cheaper than in America ).
Koreans can ( imo ) play that much for that long because :
a) incentive due to their crazy educational system
b) incentive because they can literally become nation wide celebrities and most of them probably see starcraft much like we see footbal here or as Americans see basketball
c)a place where they can do that type of stuff without having thousands of dollars saved up to keep themselves alive or being forced to move to another country practicing 10 to 14 hours in a well structured team house in the exact same environment as the Koreans will not produce the same skills. Let me give you an example, Idra did that korean team house thing for years, and nony still came along came out of his 5 year retirement and trained for 2 weeks at his house in USA and proceed to roflstomp idra without that korean team house environment. saying koreans are better because of their educational system, because of their culture, because of their race is so wrong, do you think their education and culture and race allow ppl like mvp, taejja and flash and many others grind through the pain that is carpal tunnel and refuse to let up? and then surgically repair the wrist and keep at it? Contributing the each individual player's achievement to their race and culture is racism. Ya even if it's a positive praise, you are taking away the glory from the person and giving it to their race, and say their culture produced it. Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea. Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism. "I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts. Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better. Your proof is two boX? He lost to F91 and NonY. F91 being one of the very best Zergs at that time also taking games off of NaDa and NonY being an execptional player as well winning close by 3-2 ... not even taking the games into account. I can still remember his cancelled cc into gg. Your arguments are not just weak, but barely there. ya, after ad hominem, you decide to use strawman fallacy, labeling my evidence as weak does not take away the fact these evidence supports my argument, korean practice environment, and hard working that was idra did not respect the game, did not respect his opponent, did not have the skill to beat 2 people who did not practice nearly as hard as he did nor did those 2 person grind it out in korea as he did. tell me what do you think talent is in the game of sc2? Were you involved into Starcraft Broodwar? Because it sure does seem like you were not. NonY was an expectional player who did practice on iccup against mostly Koreans and tried to smooth out his builds as much as possible. You could always tell by the build order and placement who was playing. F91 was one of the chinese pros that were very similar to the Korean scene actually. F91, Legend ... if I remember correctly they even went to Korea for a short period of time and they sure did practice just as much as the Koreans. Also NonY was actually one of the very few persons IdrA did respect, resulting in him gg'ing out of every game, but it seems like you will not back off your point even if proven wrong.
you proved what wrong? I have both nony and Idra in my team, we ended up needing to kick idra out for smurfing in a clan match, F91 was not in korea, and he wasn't consider to be on part with any big name korean.
the whole reason i bought those these 2 boX is to support my argument that korean practice environment is not the key factor to produce results. You have said nothing to disprove that argument. By saying F91 and nony was respectable argument does not take away the fact that they both beat idra without using the korean practice environment. This is evidence for "practice environment is not the key factor to better result"
If you want to disprove me, you would have to put down your own evidences such as a foreigner being in korean practice environment have produce consistent results against the koreans. (hell idra wasn't even fighting koreans for those 2 best of X and he still got his ass kicked)
and then I gave you even more evidence about stephano did not need the korean practice environment to produce consistent results against the koreans. again this also support my argument that which is " practice environment is not the key factor to better result , i am not saying it would not help, but without talent no amount of practice can make you on part with the truly talented.
You make tons of fallacies and I even point it out to you, yet you still say you proven me wrong?
|
On April 05 2013 03:26 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:25 StrifeIsBack wrote:On April 05 2013 03:18 Type|NarutO wrote:
No one is argueing that we need leagues in NA/EU. People are argueing about Korean participation should be allowed or not.
The thread is technically about why we prefer foreigners over koreans. Not either of the two things brought about in my quote or your quote. Yet in my previous post I go on to talk about why I prefer foreigners over koreans, and why koreans are bad for SC2 and esports as a whole. Bad for Starcraft 2 and eSports as a whole, you cannot be serious. Really you cannot.
Truly can be serious. Read my post? League is far superior to SC2 due to the NA scene, and not having Koreans dominate foreigners 24/7 every tournament lol.
Don't get me wrong Koreans made SC and BW what it is but I never played back then nor cared for it. The reason I am interested in SC2 is foreigners I don't give two fucks to see flash win every GSL or MLG.  problem with that?
|
Should there be a NA only or EU only tournament?
Absolutely.
Just like in English football we have the Premier League, then the rest.
And anyways, the tournaments where its been Korean dominated have way fewer views than something mostly composed of NA and EUs. Contrary to what some people think, loads of people do not want to see faceless Korean beat faceless Korean in X tournament as evident from the views as mentioned.
|
On April 05 2013 04:05 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:04 Kazeyonoma wrote:
I liken the region locking to the same as if the 4 grand slams of tennis being region locked.
I wonder how much bullshit there'd be if the Australian only allowed Asian/Australian competitors. Roland Garros only French and Euros. Wimbledon only British and Euros, and the US Open only americans.
yes we'll get to see britain finally win a wimbledon again! yay... and a french player win a french! and an australian win the AUS, and roddick can finally win another US Open again... and then have Federer/Djokovic/Nadal arrive at the year end final competition, and have them take 1/2/3 over the other 4 slots given to the grandslam winners.
THATS EXACTLY what's happening here. Football does exactly this.
And you are telling me that the fans do not freak out and shut off the TV claiming that the other leagues are "welfare" for bad players and demand to see the top team play every day of the week?
This sounds like madness, unheard of madness.
|
I want neither Koreans nor "foreigners" -- this distinction is meaningless to me. I want the highest skill. I want to be awed.
Right now, Koreans provide that. So that's who I want to watch, almost exclusively. If that were to change to, say, Icelanders, I would abandon the Koreans in moments.
Nationality is beyond meaningless. Give me greatness.
|
On April 05 2013 04:05 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:04 Kazeyonoma wrote:
I liken the region locking to the same as if the 4 grand slams of tennis being region locked.
I wonder how much bullshit there'd be if the Australian only allowed Asian/Australian competitors. Roland Garros only French and Euros. Wimbledon only British and Euros, and the US Open only americans.
yes we'll get to see britain finally win a wimbledon again! yay... and a french player win a french! and an australian win the AUS, and roddick can finally win another US Open again... and then have Federer/Djokovic/Nadal arrive at the year end final competition, and have them take 1/2/3 over the other 4 slots given to the grandslam winners.
THATS EXACTLY what's happening here. Football does exactly this.
Ah then you could compare Koreans with Barcelona and Messi = Flash.
|
On April 05 2013 04:07 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:23 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 02:20 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:12 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:27 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:09 Aterons_toss wrote:
If you are going to do that you might as well just make it Korea only because non will have a chance to qualify,this way you might have a few foreigners make it to ro8 or even ro4 if not than the 3 foreigners will surely have no chance.
And it won't "encourage" the growth of the scene, it will encourage the growth of Korea.
Even if you "take their money away" Europeans and Americans won't become Koreans, I could bet that for every foreign player if they had to chose between practicing for 14 hours or not making money they would get the hell out and go to college or find a job.
If you look at most of the successful foreigner in strategy game in general they are people like Grubby and Stephano, people that quite college for an year to try the game and became really good based on their tactics, that's why I would assume you see foreigners doing better at the beginning of BW, WC3 and SC2 than toward the end... because there is still shit to figure out.
I don't think 99% of the people you see playing starcraft outside of Korea have the mentality or live in the conditions where it would be enjoyable for them to literally train 10 to 14 hours a day for years and years to than ( sometimes ) come to fame and win about the same amount of money you would if you would have put all those hours into university ( do note that in most European countries going to a university is much cheaper than in America ).
Koreans can ( imo ) play that much for that long because :
a) incentive due to their crazy educational system
b) incentive because they can literally become nation wide celebrities and most of them probably see starcraft much like we see footbal here or as Americans see basketball
c)a place where they can do that type of stuff without having thousands of dollars saved up to keep themselves alive or being forced to move to another country practicing 10 to 14 hours in a well structured team house in the exact same environment as the Koreans will not produce the same skills. Let me give you an example, Idra did that korean team house thing for years, and nony still came along came out of his 5 year retirement and trained for 2 weeks at his house in USA and proceed to roflstomp idra without that korean team house environment. saying koreans are better because of their educational system, because of their culture, because of their race is so wrong, do you think their education and culture and race allow ppl like mvp, taejja and flash and many others grind through the pain that is carpal tunnel and refuse to let up? and then surgically repair the wrist and keep at it? Contributing the each individual player's achievement to their race and culture is racism. Ya even if it's a positive praise, you are taking away the glory from the person and giving it to their race, and say their culture produced it. Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea. Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism. "I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts. Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better. Your proof is two boX? He lost to F91 and NonY. F91 being one of the very best Zergs at that time also taking games off of NaDa and NonY being an execptional player as well winning close by 3-2 ... not even taking the games into account. I can still remember his cancelled cc into gg. Your arguments are not just weak, but barely there. ya, after ad hominem, you decide to use strawman fallacy, labeling my evidence as weak does not take away the fact these evidence supports my argument, korean practice environment, and hard working that was idra did not respect the game, did not respect his opponent, did not have the skill to beat 2 people who did not practice nearly as hard as he did nor did those 2 person grind it out in korea as he did. tell me what do you think talent is in the game of sc2? Were you involved into Starcraft Broodwar? Because it sure does seem like you were not. NonY was an expectional player who did practice on iccup against mostly Koreans and tried to smooth out his builds as much as possible. You could always tell by the build order and placement who was playing. F91 was one of the chinese pros that were very similar to the Korean scene actually. F91, Legend ... if I remember correctly they even went to Korea for a short period of time and they sure did practice just as much as the Koreans. Also NonY was actually one of the very few persons IdrA did respect, resulting in him gg'ing out of every game, but it seems like you will not back off your point even if proven wrong. you proved what wrong? I have both nony and Idra in my team, we ended up needing to kick idra out for smurfing in a clan match, F91 was not in korea, and he wasn't consider to be on part with any big name korean. the whole reason i bought those these 2 boX is to support my argument that korean practice environment is not the key factor to produce results. You have said nothing to disprove that argument. By saying F91 and nony was respectable argument does not take away the fact that they both beat idra without using the korean practice environment. This is evidence for "practice environment is not the key factor to better result" If you want to disprove me, you would have to put down your own evidences such as a foreigner being in korean practice environment have produce consistent results against the koreans. (hell idra wasn't even fighting koreans for those 2 best of X and he still got his ass kicked) and then I gave you even more evidence about stephano did not need the korean practice environment to produce consistent results against the koreans. against this also support my argument that which is " practice environment is not the key factor to better result , i am not saying it would not help, but without talent no amount of practice can make you on part with the truly talented. You make tons of fallacies and I even point it out to you, yet you still say you proven me wrong?
Your argument changes like the phases of the moon and you don't really accept any evidence he provides. It is impossible to prove someone wrong without a third party overseeing the argument, because one side must accept they are wrong.
|
On April 05 2013 04:08 StrifeIsBack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:26 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:25 StrifeIsBack wrote:On April 05 2013 03:18 Type|NarutO wrote:
No one is argueing that we need leagues in NA/EU. People are argueing about Korean participation should be allowed or not.
The thread is technically about why we prefer foreigners over koreans. Not either of the two things brought about in my quote or your quote. Yet in my previous post I go on to talk about why I prefer foreigners over koreans, and why koreans are bad for SC2 and esports as a whole. Bad for Starcraft 2 and eSports as a whole, you cannot be serious. Really you cannot. Truly can be serious. Read my post? League is far superior to SC2 due to the NA scene, and not having Koreans dominate foreigners 24/7 every tournament lol.
Koreans are the best at LoL though. They might not play every tournament but they're still the best, so basically LoL operates the same system are Blizzard are putting in here.
What you said was the Koreans are bad for Sc2, which is retarded. Just like saying Brazilians are bad for football, or black people are bad for Basketball.
|
On April 05 2013 03:59 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:55 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:46 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:28 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:21 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:19 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:15 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 03:01 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:40 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:34 Technique wrote:
[quote]
Pretty sure people have done exactly what i said and became top players...
Thing is however... Korea simply has MUCH more serious rts players... that's all there is to it. Flash and Life did not do that. Neither did Parting. They all had coaches, teams and groups around them managing them, helping them practice. These players did not become amazing just by grinding out games together. Its not about man hours and dedication, its about infrastructure. A coach can't do anything a group of dedicated players can't do for there selfs... Problem is players are streaming and laddering instead, which really is a time waste... Artosis and every professional in the industry disagrees with you and the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor that players do better with coaches. A group of passionate, dedicated players will not do as well as the same group with a professional coach. Coach Park is the best example, who lead every team he coached to a winning record and the play offs in Proleague. You also don't understand why NA teams stream, even on TL, who has korean players that stream. They don't do it for the money from streaming, but to provide numbers to their sponsors, who support the teams ability to travel to different events. Ok tell me one thing that coach can do that a dedicated player can't do on his own? It's all about self discipline. Those coaches got nothing to teach... this ain't some old sport like boxing/football etc... Also you think i don't understand they stream for money because i say it's a time waste? I was speaking from a point of view were players try to catch up to the Korean skill level... streaming and long ladder sessions can't be part of that. Mindset, mentality, stress handling, scheduling, offering a neutral observation of your game. Why do professional sport athletes have coaches? Because they do have insight. A coach can't have a proper observation of your game unless he's as high a level as you are... which like i said before, players can help each other with such ''coaching''. The offline tournament stress should be gone after a few tournaments as well. And didn't i mention that you can't compare this to old sports? For obvious reasons. No, you don't need to be as good as a progamer in terms of mechanical skill to actually be good at understanding the game. Some one who is not actively training will at best be able to follow the metagame and recognize the timings from a observer point of view... that's nothing special/useful. You will need to get ahead of the curve and estimate timings/strats with limited information if you want to separate yourself from the other ''top'' players. What kind of understanding can you bring to the table if it comes to the pro scene? Lots of players gain insight from watching the games and understanding the timings, because they don't have the problems you have as a player, which is incomplete information. They can immediately tell during or after a game how the timings will work out, where you could have improved or how to create timings. Only because you are mechanically not fit doesn't mean you cannot create strategy. I'll never be as good as Korean pros, yet I can discuss strategy with my friends among the German / European pros, because I understand strategies and their problems as well as the timing windows, doesn't mean I'm mechanically capable of playing them or executing them.
It's an illusion, you only think you can.
There are so much variables that new game specific timings occur which you as non pro player won't recognize.
Players like mvp are CONSTANTLY re adjusting and re evaluating the situation in game.
Not to speak of having to deal with ''new'' strats in tournaments like GSL were people prepare specifically for one opponent.
I don't know who the coach on the IM team is... but i tell you, Nestea and MVP are each others best coach...
Either way, bored of this discussion.
|
On April 05 2013 04:07 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:23 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 02:20 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:12 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:27 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:09 Aterons_toss wrote:
If you are going to do that you might as well just make it Korea only because non will have a chance to qualify,this way you might have a few foreigners make it to ro8 or even ro4 if not than the 3 foreigners will surely have no chance.
And it won't "encourage" the growth of the scene, it will encourage the growth of Korea.
Even if you "take their money away" Europeans and Americans won't become Koreans, I could bet that for every foreign player if they had to chose between practicing for 14 hours or not making money they would get the hell out and go to college or find a job.
If you look at most of the successful foreigner in strategy game in general they are people like Grubby and Stephano, people that quite college for an year to try the game and became really good based on their tactics, that's why I would assume you see foreigners doing better at the beginning of BW, WC3 and SC2 than toward the end... because there is still shit to figure out.
I don't think 99% of the people you see playing starcraft outside of Korea have the mentality or live in the conditions where it would be enjoyable for them to literally train 10 to 14 hours a day for years and years to than ( sometimes ) come to fame and win about the same amount of money you would if you would have put all those hours into university ( do note that in most European countries going to a university is much cheaper than in America ).
Koreans can ( imo ) play that much for that long because :
a) incentive due to their crazy educational system
b) incentive because they can literally become nation wide celebrities and most of them probably see starcraft much like we see footbal here or as Americans see basketball
c)a place where they can do that type of stuff without having thousands of dollars saved up to keep themselves alive or being forced to move to another country practicing 10 to 14 hours in a well structured team house in the exact same environment as the Koreans will not produce the same skills. Let me give you an example, Idra did that korean team house thing for years, and nony still came along came out of his 5 year retirement and trained for 2 weeks at his house in USA and proceed to roflstomp idra without that korean team house environment. saying koreans are better because of their educational system, because of their culture, because of their race is so wrong, do you think their education and culture and race allow ppl like mvp, taejja and flash and many others grind through the pain that is carpal tunnel and refuse to let up? and then surgically repair the wrist and keep at it? Contributing the each individual player's achievement to their race and culture is racism. Ya even if it's a positive praise, you are taking away the glory from the person and giving it to their race, and say their culture produced it. Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea. Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism. "I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts. Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better. Your proof is two boX? He lost to F91 and NonY. F91 being one of the very best Zergs at that time also taking games off of NaDa and NonY being an execptional player as well winning close by 3-2 ... not even taking the games into account. I can still remember his cancelled cc into gg. Your arguments are not just weak, but barely there. ya, after ad hominem, you decide to use strawman fallacy, labeling my evidence as weak does not take away the fact these evidence supports my argument, korean practice environment, and hard working that was idra did not respect the game, did not respect his opponent, did not have the skill to beat 2 people who did not practice nearly as hard as he did nor did those 2 person grind it out in korea as he did. tell me what do you think talent is in the game of sc2? Were you involved into Starcraft Broodwar? Because it sure does seem like you were not. NonY was an expectional player who did practice on iccup against mostly Koreans and tried to smooth out his builds as much as possible. You could always tell by the build order and placement who was playing. F91 was one of the chinese pros that were very similar to the Korean scene actually. F91, Legend ... if I remember correctly they even went to Korea for a short period of time and they sure did practice just as much as the Koreans. Also NonY was actually one of the very few persons IdrA did respect, resulting in him gg'ing out of every game, but it seems like you will not back off your point even if proven wrong. you proved what wrong? I have both nony and Idra in my team, we ended up needing to kick idra out for smurfing in a clan match, F91 was not in korea, and he wasn't consider to be on part with any big name korean. the whole reason i bought those these 2 boX is to support my argument that korean practice environment is not the key factor to produce results. You have said nothing to disprove that argument. By saying F91 and nony was respectable argument does not take away the fact that they both beat idra without using the korean practice environment. This is evidence for "practice environment is not the key factor to better result" If you want to disprove me, you would have to put down your own evidences such as a foreigner being in korean practice environment have produce consistent results against the koreans. (hell idra wasn't even fighting koreans for those 2 best of X and he still got his ass kicked) and then I gave you even more evidence about stephano did not need the korean practice environment to produce consistent results against the koreans. against this also support my argument that which is " practice environment is not the key factor to better result , i am not saying it would not help, but without talent no amount of practice can make you on part with the truly talented. You make tons of fallacies and I even point it out to you, yet you still say you proven me wrong?
Statistic minority doesn't matter in overall statistics. Thats just how it is. Because IdrA doesn't put up amazing results (note: he did put up results) is not reflection of Korean training. Besides that Korean practice and especially Koreans do benefit from not having a language barrier. F91 and the chinese training was - in fact - really similar to Korean practice . Also if you cannot beat an argument of me - you simply ignore it. Thats a good way to win an argument against someone who will fall for it. I'll wait for you to actually counter my argument with facts.
I did mention, that you have the proof of superior Korean practice all the time due to Koreans domenating non Koreans. You say its talent, I ask you; is every Korean talented? I ask you to go and see for example rets interview about Korea and how he didn't like it, yet it did improve his play a ton. Even if you argue that Korean training is not key, you cannot deny (at least) the fact that its superior and does - in fact - deliver results.
|
On April 05 2013 04:11 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:08 StrifeIsBack wrote:On April 05 2013 03:26 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:25 StrifeIsBack wrote:On April 05 2013 03:18 Type|NarutO wrote:
No one is argueing that we need leagues in NA/EU. People are argueing about Korean participation should be allowed or not.
The thread is technically about why we prefer foreigners over koreans. Not either of the two things brought about in my quote or your quote. Yet in my previous post I go on to talk about why I prefer foreigners over koreans, and why koreans are bad for SC2 and esports as a whole. Bad for Starcraft 2 and eSports as a whole, you cannot be serious. Really you cannot. Truly can be serious. Read my post? League is far superior to SC2 due to the NA scene, and not having Koreans dominate foreigners 24/7 every tournament lol. Koreans are the best at LoL though. They might not play every tournament but they're still the best, so basically LoL operates the same system are Blizzard are putting in here. What you said was the Koreans are bad for Sc2, which is retarded. Just like saying Brazilians are bad for football, or black people are bad for Basketball.
If you go back and read the damn post I say they are bad for it because it stagnates the scene. You have Flash vs Life every MLG. You have every korean playing every korean every tournament ever. GSL. MLG. Proleague. Every single major tournament is a korean. Foreigners lose interest, and thus viewership drops. Thus titles like League who don't have koreans dominating every god damn tournament flourish, and grow beyond the stagnant StarCraft scene...if you don't get that then you sir have literally blown my mind.
Sure Koreans play League but there are foreigner tournaments that foreigners win because koreans aren't stomping all the fuck over the earth like they are in StarCraft. That's all I'm saying stop having koreans enter every damn tournament or come up with more tournaments that they won't enter into to give foreigners some fucking motivation to give a damn about this game. Money doesn't grow on trees, and people have mouths to feed. They can't stand to sit there and play for 16 hours a day like a korean with nothnig to show for it. I don't think you people truly understand the amount of time koreans put into it versus the amount of time foreigners do lol.
I give credit where credit is due, and that credit is due in SC/BW. Not SC2. I learned of SC2 through streams, and the sort, and it peaked my interest. Foreigners. Not Koreans. Besides Koreans don't really know English like FOREIGNERS do O_O holy poop that's a hard one to grasp I know. I mean I can see a hardcoer fan base wanting to see best of the best of the Koreans sure but a majority doesn't want to see that every game, and the majority is what keeps shit alive.
speaking of MLG look how it went there is no longer an open bracket. It is now invite only, and a MAJORITY of the 32 plaeyrs invited were KOREAN to an AMERICAN tournament ffs. How can America or foreigners in general EVER fucking grow? How can we EVER support a professional starcraft community, let alone eSports over here?
|
On April 05 2013 04:14 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:59 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:55 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:46 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:28 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:21 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:19 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:15 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 03:01 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:40 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Flash and Life did not do that. Neither did Parting. They all had coaches, teams and groups around them managing them, helping them practice. These players did not become amazing just by grinding out games together. Its not about man hours and dedication, its about infrastructure. A coach can't do anything a group of dedicated players can't do for there selfs... Problem is players are streaming and laddering instead, which really is a time waste... Artosis and every professional in the industry disagrees with you and the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor that players do better with coaches. A group of passionate, dedicated players will not do as well as the same group with a professional coach. Coach Park is the best example, who lead every team he coached to a winning record and the play offs in Proleague. You also don't understand why NA teams stream, even on TL, who has korean players that stream. They don't do it for the money from streaming, but to provide numbers to their sponsors, who support the teams ability to travel to different events. Ok tell me one thing that coach can do that a dedicated player can't do on his own? It's all about self discipline. Those coaches got nothing to teach... this ain't some old sport like boxing/football etc... Also you think i don't understand they stream for money because i say it's a time waste? I was speaking from a point of view were players try to catch up to the Korean skill level... streaming and long ladder sessions can't be part of that. Mindset, mentality, stress handling, scheduling, offering a neutral observation of your game. Why do professional sport athletes have coaches? Because they do have insight. A coach can't have a proper observation of your game unless he's as high a level as you are... which like i said before, players can help each other with such ''coaching''. The offline tournament stress should be gone after a few tournaments as well. And didn't i mention that you can't compare this to old sports? For obvious reasons. No, you don't need to be as good as a progamer in terms of mechanical skill to actually be good at understanding the game. Some one who is not actively training will at best be able to follow the metagame and recognize the timings from a observer point of view... that's nothing special/useful. You will need to get ahead of the curve and estimate timings/strats with limited information if you want to separate yourself from the other ''top'' players. What kind of understanding can you bring to the table if it comes to the pro scene? Lots of players gain insight from watching the games and understanding the timings, because they don't have the problems you have as a player, which is incomplete information. They can immediately tell during or after a game how the timings will work out, where you could have improved or how to create timings. Only because you are mechanically not fit doesn't mean you cannot create strategy. I'll never be as good as Korean pros, yet I can discuss strategy with my friends among the German / European pros, because I understand strategies and their problems as well as the timing windows, doesn't mean I'm mechanically capable of playing them or executing them. It's an illusion, you only think you can. There are so much variables that new game specific timings occur which you as non pro player won't recognize. Players like mvp are CONSTANTLY re adjusting and re evaluating the situation in game. Not to speak of having to deal with ''new'' strats in tournaments like GSL were people prepare specifically for one opponent. Either way, bored of this discussion.
I think I can? I know I can and for what reason? Because the pros do agree with me on my opinion. It doesn't matter if you disagree and are bored with that discussion. It also doesn't matter because you cannot provide anything to counterproof that coaches are actually useful to players.
PS: Most coaches were progamers to begin with.
|
On April 05 2013 04:11 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:08 StrifeIsBack wrote:On April 05 2013 03:26 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:25 StrifeIsBack wrote:On April 05 2013 03:18 Type|NarutO wrote:
No one is argueing that we need leagues in NA/EU. People are argueing about Korean participation should be allowed or not.
The thread is technically about why we prefer foreigners over koreans. Not either of the two things brought about in my quote or your quote. Yet in my previous post I go on to talk about why I prefer foreigners over koreans, and why koreans are bad for SC2 and esports as a whole. Bad for Starcraft 2 and eSports as a whole, you cannot be serious. Really you cannot. Truly can be serious. Read my post? League is far superior to SC2 due to the NA scene, and not having Koreans dominate foreigners 24/7 every tournament lol. Koreans are the best at LoL though. They might not play every tournament but they're still the best, so basically LoL operates the same system are Blizzard are putting in here. What you said was the Koreans are bad for Sc2, which is retarded. Just like saying Brazilians are bad for football, or black people are bad for Basketball.
I see his point, though made poorly. He is saying that Brazil would be bad for football if their team game over to every event and crushed every other team. Having Koreans coming over to kick the crap out of all the foreign players is bad for growth, because there are no new foreign players entering the scene. You can't start everyone in grandmasters, some people need to be in masters or diamond.
|
On April 05 2013 04:15 StrifeIsBack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:11 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On April 05 2013 04:08 StrifeIsBack wrote:On April 05 2013 03:26 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:25 StrifeIsBack wrote:On April 05 2013 03:18 Type|NarutO wrote:
No one is argueing that we need leagues in NA/EU. People are argueing about Korean participation should be allowed or not.
The thread is technically about why we prefer foreigners over koreans. Not either of the two things brought about in my quote or your quote. Yet in my previous post I go on to talk about why I prefer foreigners over koreans, and why koreans are bad for SC2 and esports as a whole. Bad for Starcraft 2 and eSports as a whole, you cannot be serious. Really you cannot. Truly can be serious. Read my post? League is far superior to SC2 due to the NA scene, and not having Koreans dominate foreigners 24/7 every tournament lol. Koreans are the best at LoL though. They might not play every tournament but they're still the best, so basically LoL operates the same system are Blizzard are putting in here. What you said was the Koreans are bad for Sc2, which is retarded. Just like saying Brazilians are bad for football, or black people are bad for Basketball. If you go back and read the damn post I say they are bad for it because it stagnates the scene. You have Flash vs Life every MLG. You have every korean playing every korean every tournament ever. GSL. MLG. Proleague. Every single major tournament is a korean. Foreigners lose interest, and thus viewership drops. Thus titles like League who don't have koreans dominating every god damn tournament flourish, and grow beyond the stagnant StarCraft scene...if you don't get that then you sir have literally blown my mind. Sure Koreans play League but their are foreigner tournaments that foreigners win because koreans aren't stomping all the fuck over the earth like they are in StarCraft. That's all I'm saying stop having koreans enter every damn tournament or come up with more tournaments that they won't enter into to give foreigners some fucking motivation to give a damn about this game.
This has absolute nothing to do with why LoL is a more popular Esport. Absolutely zero.
LoL is more popular because it has 100x more people playing it.
|
On April 05 2013 04:16 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 04:14 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:59 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:55 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:46 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:28 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:21 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:19 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 03:15 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 03:01 Technique wrote:
[quote]
A coach can't do anything a group of dedicated players can't do for there selfs...
Problem is players are streaming and laddering instead, which really is a time waste...
Artosis and every professional in the industry disagrees with you and the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor that players do better with coaches. A group of passionate, dedicated players will not do as well as the same group with a professional coach. Coach Park is the best example, who lead every team he coached to a winning record and the play offs in Proleague. You also don't understand why NA teams stream, even on TL, who has korean players that stream. They don't do it for the money from streaming, but to provide numbers to their sponsors, who support the teams ability to travel to different events. Ok tell me one thing that coach can do that a dedicated player can't do on his own? It's all about self discipline. Those coaches got nothing to teach... this ain't some old sport like boxing/football etc... Also you think i don't understand they stream for money because i say it's a time waste? I was speaking from a point of view were players try to catch up to the Korean skill level... streaming and long ladder sessions can't be part of that. Mindset, mentality, stress handling, scheduling, offering a neutral observation of your game. Why do professional sport athletes have coaches? Because they do have insight. A coach can't have a proper observation of your game unless he's as high a level as you are... which like i said before, players can help each other with such ''coaching''. The offline tournament stress should be gone after a few tournaments as well. And didn't i mention that you can't compare this to old sports? For obvious reasons. No, you don't need to be as good as a progamer in terms of mechanical skill to actually be good at understanding the game. Some one who is not actively training will at best be able to follow the metagame and recognize the timings from a observer point of view... that's nothing special/useful. You will need to get ahead of the curve and estimate timings/strats with limited information if you want to separate yourself from the other ''top'' players. What kind of understanding can you bring to the table if it comes to the pro scene? Lots of players gain insight from watching the games and understanding the timings, because they don't have the problems you have as a player, which is incomplete information. They can immediately tell during or after a game how the timings will work out, where you could have improved or how to create timings. Only because you are mechanically not fit doesn't mean you cannot create strategy. I'll never be as good as Korean pros, yet I can discuss strategy with my friends among the German / European pros, because I understand strategies and their problems as well as the timing windows, doesn't mean I'm mechanically capable of playing them or executing them. It's an illusion, you only think you can. There are so much variables that new game specific timings occur which you as non pro player won't recognize. Players like mvp are CONSTANTLY re adjusting and re evaluating the situation in game. Not to speak of having to deal with ''new'' strats in tournaments like GSL were people prepare specifically for one opponent. Either way, bored of this discussion. I think I can? I know I can and for what reason? Because the pros do agree with me on my opinion. It doesn't matter if you disagree and are bored with that discussion. It also doesn't matter because you cannot provide anything to counterproof that coaches are actually useful to players. PS: Most coaches were progamers to begin with.
I keep asking him that question, but he keeps ignoring it. He knows he wrong, but just doesn't want to respond to the points that every professional in the industry and the results of numerous pro-leagues disagree with him.
|
On April 05 2013 02:37 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:28 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:13 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:11 Shiori wrote:On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:27 rei wrote:
[quote]
practicing 10 to 14 hours in a well structured team house in the exact same environment as the Koreans will not produce the same skills. Let me give you an example, Idra did that korean team house thing for years, and nony still came along came out of his 5 year retirement and trained for 2 weeks at his house in USA and proceed to roflstomp idra without that korean team house environment.
saying koreans are better because of their educational system, because of their culture, because of their race is so wrong, do you think their education and culture and race allow ppl like mvp, taejja and flash and many others grind through the pain that is carpal tunnel and refuse to let up? and then surgically repair the wrist and keep at it?
Contributing the each individual player's achievement to their race and culture is racism. Ya even if it's a positive praise, you are taking away the glory from the person and giving it to their race, and say their culture produced it. Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea. Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism. "I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts. Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better. So Koreans are genetically superior...? That's nonsense. Talent is a buzzword employed by people who don't have an argument to gloss over the hard work and drive of people more motivated than themselves. Lmao at you if you think MVP used some inaccessible magic to win GSLs. didn't say that, again, what you consider to be talent could be different from what I consider to be talent, tell me what you think talent is in sc2? maybe if you figure out what it is you would agree with me. You heavily implied it. All of the arguments based around racism and genetic advantage center around environment vs nature. By saying that Korean players will beat all foreign players if both are placed in the same environment, you are making the classic argument that all racist have made for years. If you don't want to be accused of being racist, do not make arguments in this fashion. it never even cross my mind for a second until you mention it, the fact that you mention it reflects on what you are thinking, not what I am thinking. if anything you should look at yourself on why you would be looking for racism when nothing is even remotely pointing toward that direction. and my argument is supported by facts, idra had the korean environment and he does not produce any korean result, neighter did huk, nor naniwa, nor sase. and then on the other hand, we have stephano who did not have the korean environment yet he won ton of tournaments vs the koreans. these are Facts. talent is the different between stephano and idra. It matters little what I am thinking, but what your statements say to the general public. If you make an argument that is used by racist, don't be shocked if bring that up. If you aren't aware that the argument was used by racist, you should place the burden on the other side for thinking the argument was racist. You are responsible for conveying your own thoughts and making sure we don't misread them. What is the point of your argument? Stephano is a talented player and does well, we know that. The other players you list are not doing amazing, but so are an equal number of Korean players in Korea. We know that some players are more talented than others, that is given fact. Is your argument that the current set of foreign players are not as talented as Koreans or that all foreign players are not talented as Koreans?
the point i'm trying to make is that "the Korean practice environment is not the key factor on getting results"
I put down 3 evidences for my argument.
1) idra practice in the korean practice environment for years, and got own by f91 who did not practice in korean practice environment.
2) idra got own by nony who came out of retirement for 2 weeks after years of being inactive.
3) stephano did not need the korean practice environment to have good results against the koreans for the past few years.
and finally after these insurmountable evidences, I conclude that the korean practice environment and the korean culture is not why the koreans are winning everything. I contribute all the korean results to their individual hard work, and their talent, I will not take away their glory by generalizing all koreans are good because of they have unfair advantage in better environment.
do you have a bone to pick with this faultless argument?
|
On April 05 2013 04:08 StrifeIsBack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:26 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 03:25 StrifeIsBack wrote:On April 05 2013 03:18 Type|NarutO wrote:
No one is argueing that we need leagues in NA/EU. People are argueing about Korean participation should be allowed or not.
The thread is technically about why we prefer foreigners over koreans. Not either of the two things brought about in my quote or your quote. Yet in my previous post I go on to talk about why I prefer foreigners over koreans, and why koreans are bad for SC2 and esports as a whole. Bad for Starcraft 2 and eSports as a whole, you cannot be serious. Really you cannot. Truly can be serious. Read my post? League is far superior to SC2 due to the NA scene, and not having Koreans dominate foreigners 24/7 every tournament lol. Don't get me wrong Koreans made SC and BW what it is but I never played back then nor cared for it. The reason I am interested in SC2 is foreigners I don't give two fucks to see flash win every GSL or MLG. problem with that?
I don't have the problem with that, but 120000 people who watched Flash vs Life disagree. It doesn't matter that you dislike Koreans - banning due to origin is racist and should not be tolerated. eSports cannot aim to be taken seriously and do stuff like that. That your personal wish is to see more foreign players is completely acceptable and fine, but blame foreigners for not stepping up if they get dominated, not Koreans for being good.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
