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On April 05 2013 02:22 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:17 Technique wrote:
It's simple, people need to stop laddering and stop streaming.
And actually get together and practice properly... don't need a ''practice house'' for this... just a few like minded top players. Professional coaching is a critical part of practice and that is one area where NA and EU simply lacks professionals who can fill that role. Everyone does better with a coach in all aspects of competition and the Olympics has proven this over and over. Management of your practice schedule and objective review of your performance is key to success in any competitive field and it is a key area that NA and EU teams need to double down on.
Players can coach/help each other... it's the most effective thing in such a ''new'' sport/game since there won't be a guy who ''done'' and ''seen'' it all like some old boxing coach or w/e.
Also if this is all you do... who needs a schedule? Just keep massing those practice games together...
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This will inevitably kill esports as a whole. Its the same as beer pong. The same 10 people place in the top 5 every time. We don't get new players, we don't get stars rising from out of no where, nothing. The same with SC. You either play now, or you'll never play. The best players from WC3 and BW dominate... And it will always be that way. The best then, are the best now. It is slowly killing the industry. Less and less show for tournaments, less and less play at all. You invest so much time and money into something with no return... That's just stupidity. They should segregate the league's much like in BroodWar, and WarCraft III. Keep them separate.
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No matter how much I love seeing the Koreans amazon play , I'd love to see more tournaments without Koreans all over .....
It's just getting dull seeing the same old flag over and over , I even skipped some finals due to that .... Although I would NEVER skip a final with a 'foreigner' in !
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On April 05 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:13 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:11 Shiori wrote:On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:27 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:09 Aterons_toss wrote:
If you are going to do that you might as well just make it Korea only because non will have a chance to qualify,this way you might have a few foreigners make it to ro8 or even ro4 if not than the 3 foreigners will surely have no chance.
And it won't "encourage" the growth of the scene, it will encourage the growth of Korea.
Even if you "take their money away" Europeans and Americans won't become Koreans, I could bet that for every foreign player if they had to chose between practicing for 14 hours or not making money they would get the hell out and go to college or find a job.
If you look at most of the successful foreigner in strategy game in general they are people like Grubby and Stephano, people that quite college for an year to try the game and became really good based on their tactics, that's why I would assume you see foreigners doing better at the beginning of BW, WC3 and SC2 than toward the end... because there is still shit to figure out.
I don't think 99% of the people you see playing starcraft outside of Korea have the mentality or live in the conditions where it would be enjoyable for them to literally train 10 to 14 hours a day for years and years to than ( sometimes ) come to fame and win about the same amount of money you would if you would have put all those hours into university ( do note that in most European countries going to a university is much cheaper than in America ).
Koreans can ( imo ) play that much for that long because :
a) incentive due to their crazy educational system
b) incentive because they can literally become nation wide celebrities and most of them probably see starcraft much like we see footbal here or as Americans see basketball
c)a place where they can do that type of stuff without having thousands of dollars saved up to keep themselves alive or being forced to move to another country practicing 10 to 14 hours in a well structured team house in the exact same environment as the Koreans will not produce the same skills. Let me give you an example, Idra did that korean team house thing for years, and nony still came along came out of his 5 year retirement and trained for 2 weeks at his house in USA and proceed to roflstomp idra without that korean team house environment. saying koreans are better because of their educational system, because of their culture, because of their race is so wrong, do you think their education and culture and race allow ppl like mvp, taejja and flash and many others grind through the pain that is carpal tunnel and refuse to let up? and then surgically repair the wrist and keep at it? Contributing the each individual player's achievement to their race and culture is racism. Ya even if it's a positive praise, you are taking away the glory from the person and giving it to their race, and say their culture produced it. Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea. Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism. "I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts. Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better. So Koreans are genetically superior...? That's nonsense. Talent is a buzzword employed by people who don't have an argument to gloss over the hard work and drive of people more motivated than themselves. Lmao at you if you think MVP used some inaccessible magic to win GSLs. didn't say that, again, what you consider to be talent could be different from what I consider to be talent, tell me what you think talent is in sc2? maybe if you figure out what it is you would agree with me. You heavily implied it. All of the arguments based around racism and genetic advantage center around environment vs nature. By saying that Korean players will beat all foreign players if both are placed in the same environment, you are making the classic argument that all racist have made for years. If you don't want to be accused of being racist, do not make arguments in this fashion.
it never even cross my mind for a second until you mention it, the fact that you mention it reflects on what you are thinking, not what I am thinking. if anything you should look at yourself on why you would be looking for racism when nothing is even remotely pointing toward that direction.
and my argument is supported by facts, idra had the korean environment and he does not produce any korean result, neighter did huk, nor naniwa, nor sase. and then on the other hand, we have stephano who did not have the korean environment yet he won ton of tournaments vs the koreans. these are Facts. talent is the different between stephano and idra.
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On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:I never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better.
That's statistically unsound unless you are actually discriminating westerners based on races which is both retarded and severely outdated as a theory or that you can prove that Korean culture breeds superior PC gamer.
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On April 05 2013 02:25 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:22 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:17 Technique wrote:
It's simple, people need to stop laddering and stop streaming.
And actually get together and practice properly... don't need a ''practice house'' for this... just a few like minded top players. Professional coaching is a critical part of practice and that is one area where NA and EU simply lacks professionals who can fill that role. Everyone does better with a coach in all aspects of competition and the Olympics has proven this over and over. Management of your practice schedule and objective review of your performance is key to success in any competitive field and it is a key area that NA and EU teams need to double down on. Players can coach/help each other... it's the most effective thing in such a ''new'' sport/game since there won't be a guy who ''done'' and ''seen'' it all like some old boxing coach or w/e. Also if this is all you do... who needs a schedule? Just keep massing those practice games together...
If it were that easy, people would just do it. That is not the type of system that the Kespa teams have and they are doing the best right now. Kespa teams have coaches that schedule, review games and manage the players, the amount they practice and what they practice. There is a reason Coach Park has the most winning record of all the Kespa coaches and his teams do the best. They don't just mass practice, they practice better than other teams because he manages how they practice.
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On April 05 2013 02:31 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:25 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:22 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:17 Technique wrote:
It's simple, people need to stop laddering and stop streaming.
And actually get together and practice properly... don't need a ''practice house'' for this... just a few like minded top players. Professional coaching is a critical part of practice and that is one area where NA and EU simply lacks professionals who can fill that role. Everyone does better with a coach in all aspects of competition and the Olympics has proven this over and over. Management of your practice schedule and objective review of your performance is key to success in any competitive field and it is a key area that NA and EU teams need to double down on. Players can coach/help each other... it's the most effective thing in such a ''new'' sport/game since there won't be a guy who ''done'' and ''seen'' it all like some old boxing coach or w/e. Also if this is all you do... who needs a schedule? Just keep massing those practice games together... If it were that easy, people would just do it. That is not the type of system that the Kespa teams have and they are doing the best right now. Kespa teams have coaches that schedule, review games and manage the players, the amount they practice and what they practice. There is a reason Coach Park has the most winning record of all the Kespa coaches and his teams do the best. They don't just mass practice, they practice better than other teams because he manages how they practice.
Pretty sure people have done exactly what i said and became top players...
Thing is however... Korea simply has MUCH more serious rts players... that's all there is to it.
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On April 05 2013 02:28 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:18 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:13 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:11 Shiori wrote:On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:27 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:09 Aterons_toss wrote:
If you are going to do that you might as well just make it Korea only because non will have a chance to qualify,this way you might have a few foreigners make it to ro8 or even ro4 if not than the 3 foreigners will surely have no chance.
And it won't "encourage" the growth of the scene, it will encourage the growth of Korea.
Even if you "take their money away" Europeans and Americans won't become Koreans, I could bet that for every foreign player if they had to chose between practicing for 14 hours or not making money they would get the hell out and go to college or find a job.
If you look at most of the successful foreigner in strategy game in general they are people like Grubby and Stephano, people that quite college for an year to try the game and became really good based on their tactics, that's why I would assume you see foreigners doing better at the beginning of BW, WC3 and SC2 than toward the end... because there is still shit to figure out.
I don't think 99% of the people you see playing starcraft outside of Korea have the mentality or live in the conditions where it would be enjoyable for them to literally train 10 to 14 hours a day for years and years to than ( sometimes ) come to fame and win about the same amount of money you would if you would have put all those hours into university ( do note that in most European countries going to a university is much cheaper than in America ).
Koreans can ( imo ) play that much for that long because :
a) incentive due to their crazy educational system
b) incentive because they can literally become nation wide celebrities and most of them probably see starcraft much like we see footbal here or as Americans see basketball
c)a place where they can do that type of stuff without having thousands of dollars saved up to keep themselves alive or being forced to move to another country practicing 10 to 14 hours in a well structured team house in the exact same environment as the Koreans will not produce the same skills. Let me give you an example, Idra did that korean team house thing for years, and nony still came along came out of his 5 year retirement and trained for 2 weeks at his house in USA and proceed to roflstomp idra without that korean team house environment. saying koreans are better because of their educational system, because of their culture, because of their race is so wrong, do you think their education and culture and race allow ppl like mvp, taejja and flash and many others grind through the pain that is carpal tunnel and refuse to let up? and then surgically repair the wrist and keep at it? Contributing the each individual player's achievement to their race and culture is racism. Ya even if it's a positive praise, you are taking away the glory from the person and giving it to their race, and say their culture produced it. Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea. Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism. "I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts. Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better. So Koreans are genetically superior...? That's nonsense. Talent is a buzzword employed by people who don't have an argument to gloss over the hard work and drive of people more motivated than themselves. Lmao at you if you think MVP used some inaccessible magic to win GSLs. didn't say that, again, what you consider to be talent could be different from what I consider to be talent, tell me what you think talent is in sc2? maybe if you figure out what it is you would agree with me. You heavily implied it. All of the arguments based around racism and genetic advantage center around environment vs nature. By saying that Korean players will beat all foreign players if both are placed in the same environment, you are making the classic argument that all racist have made for years. If you don't want to be accused of being racist, do not make arguments in this fashion. it never even cross my mind for a second until you mention it, the fact that you mention it reflects on what you are thinking, not what I am thinking. if anything you should look at yourself on why you would be looking for racism when nothing is even remotely pointing toward that direction. and my argument is supported by facts, idra had the korean environment and he does not produce any korean result, neighter did huk, nor naniwa, nor sase. and then on the other hand, we have stephano who did not have the korean environment yet he won ton of tournaments vs the koreans. these are Facts. talent is the different between stephano and idra.
It matters little what I am thinking, but what your statements say to the general public. If you make an argument that is used by racist, don't be shocked if bring that up. If you aren't aware that the argument was used by racist, you should place the burden on the other side for thinking the argument was racist. You are responsible for conveying your own thoughts and making sure we don't misread them.
What is the point of your argument? Stephano is a talented player and does well, we know that. The other players you list are not doing amazing, but so are an equal number of Korean players in Korea. We know that some players are more talented than others, that is given fact. Is your argument that the current set of foreign players are not as talented as Koreans or that all foreign players are not talented as Koreans?
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I'd just argue for local tournaments for the same reason why you have Bronze through GM leagues. You need that in order to get people to play. Yeah, NA players can't generally go toe-to-toe with Koreans. The best way to give them the chance to is to start out with an even playing field and let the scene work its way up. There's a huge unresolvable issue in that NA players are spread out across an entire continent while Koreans are pretty much all in Seoul, but at least it gives the NA grandmasters the ability to seriously compete.
In order to get good, you need to be competing with people who are around your level of skill. If Koreans dominate every tournament, there's no place for foreigners to join in. That's why we need smaller regional tournaments: it gives foreigners a reason to practice.
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On April 05 2013 02:34 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:31 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:25 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:22 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:17 Technique wrote:
It's simple, people need to stop laddering and stop streaming.
And actually get together and practice properly... don't need a ''practice house'' for this... just a few like minded top players. Professional coaching is a critical part of practice and that is one area where NA and EU simply lacks professionals who can fill that role. Everyone does better with a coach in all aspects of competition and the Olympics has proven this over and over. Management of your practice schedule and objective review of your performance is key to success in any competitive field and it is a key area that NA and EU teams need to double down on. Players can coach/help each other... it's the most effective thing in such a ''new'' sport/game since there won't be a guy who ''done'' and ''seen'' it all like some old boxing coach or w/e. Also if this is all you do... who needs a schedule? Just keep massing those practice games together... If it were that easy, people would just do it. That is not the type of system that the Kespa teams have and they are doing the best right now. Kespa teams have coaches that schedule, review games and manage the players, the amount they practice and what they practice. There is a reason Coach Park has the most winning record of all the Kespa coaches and his teams do the best. They don't just mass practice, they practice better than other teams because he manages how they practice. Pretty sure people have done exactly what i said and became top players... Thing is however... Korea simply has MUCH more serious rts players... that's all there is to it.
Flash and Life did not do that. Neither did Parting. They all had coaches, teams and groups around them managing them, helping them practice. These players did not become amazing just by grinding out games together. Its not about man hours and dedication, its about infrastructure.
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There is no point in arguing now. We can just watch the viewership of NA league in the next 2 months.
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On April 05 2013 02:40 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:34 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:31 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:25 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:22 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:17 Technique wrote:
It's simple, people need to stop laddering and stop streaming.
And actually get together and practice properly... don't need a ''practice house'' for this... just a few like minded top players. Professional coaching is a critical part of practice and that is one area where NA and EU simply lacks professionals who can fill that role. Everyone does better with a coach in all aspects of competition and the Olympics has proven this over and over. Management of your practice schedule and objective review of your performance is key to success in any competitive field and it is a key area that NA and EU teams need to double down on. Players can coach/help each other... it's the most effective thing in such a ''new'' sport/game since there won't be a guy who ''done'' and ''seen'' it all like some old boxing coach or w/e. Also if this is all you do... who needs a schedule? Just keep massing those practice games together... If it were that easy, people would just do it. That is not the type of system that the Kespa teams have and they are doing the best right now. Kespa teams have coaches that schedule, review games and manage the players, the amount they practice and what they practice. There is a reason Coach Park has the most winning record of all the Kespa coaches and his teams do the best. They don't just mass practice, they practice better than other teams because he manages how they practice. Pretty sure people have done exactly what i said and became top players... Thing is however... Korea simply has MUCH more serious rts players... that's all there is to it. Flash and Life did not do that. Neither did Parting. They all had coaches, teams and groups around them managing them, helping them practice. These players did not become amazing just by grinding out games together. Its not about man hours and dedication, its about infrastructure.
A coach can't do anything a group of dedicated players can't do for there selfs...
Problem is players are streaming and laddering instead, which really is a time waste...
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how about everybody just chills and we wait and see what actually happens? it doesn't seem terribly likely that a few threads on TL will change the tournament organizations' decisions.
i personally don't see a possible bad outcome from this. either foreigners show that they can already compete decently (very unlikely), or some Koreans make it through NA/EU along with some foreigners which would prove that some foreigners can hang, but most can't (most likely scenario imo and gives people that are into that foreigners to watch while encouraging the other foreigners to practice harder), or all the foreigners get roflstomped and the entire playoff event consists of 16 koreans, which would bring the best possible games, be absolutely hilarious and perhaps show foreigners around the world that they seriously need to step it up.
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On April 05 2013 03:01 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:40 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:34 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:31 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:25 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:22 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:17 Technique wrote:
It's simple, people need to stop laddering and stop streaming.
And actually get together and practice properly... don't need a ''practice house'' for this... just a few like minded top players. Professional coaching is a critical part of practice and that is one area where NA and EU simply lacks professionals who can fill that role. Everyone does better with a coach in all aspects of competition and the Olympics has proven this over and over. Management of your practice schedule and objective review of your performance is key to success in any competitive field and it is a key area that NA and EU teams need to double down on. Players can coach/help each other... it's the most effective thing in such a ''new'' sport/game since there won't be a guy who ''done'' and ''seen'' it all like some old boxing coach or w/e. Also if this is all you do... who needs a schedule? Just keep massing those practice games together... If it were that easy, people would just do it. That is not the type of system that the Kespa teams have and they are doing the best right now. Kespa teams have coaches that schedule, review games and manage the players, the amount they practice and what they practice. There is a reason Coach Park has the most winning record of all the Kespa coaches and his teams do the best. They don't just mass practice, they practice better than other teams because he manages how they practice. Pretty sure people have done exactly what i said and became top players... Thing is however... Korea simply has MUCH more serious rts players... that's all there is to it. Flash and Life did not do that. Neither did Parting. They all had coaches, teams and groups around them managing them, helping them practice. These players did not become amazing just by grinding out games together. Its not about man hours and dedication, its about infrastructure. A coach can't do anything a group of dedicated players can't do for there selfs... Problem is players are streaming and laddering instead, which really is a time waste...
Artosis and every professional in the industry disagrees with you and the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor that players do better with coaches. A group of passionate, dedicated players will not do as well as the same group with a professional coach. Coach Park is the best example, who lead every team he coached to a winning record and the play offs in Proleague.
You also don't understand why NA teams stream, even on TL, who has korean players that stream. They don't do it for the money from streaming, but to provide numbers to their sponsors, who support the teams ability to travel to different events.
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On April 05 2013 01:31 StrifeIsBack wrote:The problem with using NASL is that it wasn't an exclusive NA/EU tournament, ffs NASL1 had Koreans like Boxer invited. There really hasn't been a major NA tournament that has been exclusive to NA ever. I think it's something that we as foreigners need to give the motivation players need. Koreans still have GSL, MLG, and all of the other shit they can dominate but frankly it's getting tiring, and is more stagnant than the SC game itself. More NA tournaments means more opportunity for foreigners to give a shit about playing, and being able to win something. Many good points have been brought up about gaming as a professional industry, and that the money really isn't there compared to over in Seoul, and South Korea in general. We don't have that sort of support like the koreans do to make it far easier for them to sustain themselves. Sure koreans come to the NA teams for salaries that are "better" than the Korean counterparts for all you know that's entirely false, and they just want to play in NA for the big payouts like MLG, and the sort that they can ez farm  . No one ever said at any point that the tournaments that are region locked should be huge multi-national level payouts...ever...just because it's region locked doesn't mean it's an MLG with a $100,000 prize pool for Top 8...jesus. Something definitely needs to be done though or else I fear Korea will once again be the only place that is, and ever will be Starcraft.
Instead of arguing over talent, and racism can we discuss more important on topic matters...like this ^
^_^ just sayin' bickering like little children is pointless. I bring up plenty of relevant, and important matters in the NA scene, and the StarCraft scene not dying as a whole.
Korean v Korean is boring. Many people don't care to continously watch these MLG finals of Flash vs Life, Life vs Parting, etc, etc, etc. Us foreigners want foreigners to win (surprise?) hence we need regional leagues, and tournaments for our players to grow, and foster the ability, and willingness to create the infastructure we need over here.
Especially to be able to get to such high levels of play to compete with the koreans, and not have a stagnant SC2 esports scene that will slowly die out, and less, and less viewers to watch, and give money to supporters for SC2. As it is already League has exploded in popularity over SC2, and other games are looking to do the same.
The point of this thread isn't really about WCS either. It's about why we want to see foreigners over koreans. Soooooo yeah. The reason is simple. The analogy brought up of sports teams is very relatable. You don't care about the best of the best, you care about your "home team" in this case starcraft player like Demuslim or team like ROOT.
I don't care to see high level play of Korean on Foreigner at MLG smacking the shit out of my favorite player or favorite team, and them losing consistently. I'd like to see a level of play that is on par with that of the team I'm in favor of, and that just can't happen if everything is open to koreans freely. There needs to be some sort of NA/regional tournaments where koreans aren't just going to come in and swoop up dat dere free money.
This all again rolls back to needing an infrastructure like korea with the team houses, and team coaches to be able to compete at such levels like the koreans if we ever want high level play from all nations. The same needs to happen in Denmark, Germany, Norway, etc. etc. etc.
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The way WCS is set up is not offensive imo because its similar to olympics. Some countries have athletes that would of normally would of been an Olympian in another country but be excluded from their own.
With that said, I am less than enthusiastic about how its set up to force foreigners into the spotlight. Personally I dont really care about the origins of the players, I just want to see high level games. The highest level games are played by koreans. And on top of that, they also generally produce much more entertaining games because they are much more aggressive.
I mean I watch real sports (mainly NBA) in addition to starcraft. I always thought other than the physical factor of it all, that starcraft had tons of similarities to how real sports are spectated. However this foreigner vs korean thing is really stupid. I would be appalled if a player from lets say China got more playing time then an african american player just to promote basketball in China and appease chinese fans. That just isnt the way to do it.
Yes, Koreans have an advantage over foreigners because of their structure. So what? Same with how americans do with basketball with their school programs. People keep on comparing starcraft with real sports in TL but their argument for foreigners is always the furthest away from how its handled in real sports. Starcraft is a competitive sport, theres no leveling the playing field for racial factors.
You can have regional tournaments as long as they don't exclude you because of your nationality. It should discourage koreans from attending these tournies with small prize pools that make it not worth it to travel. Thats how you do it. Like many others, I wish foreigners were more competitive too but they should not be coddled in. I am a Chinese Canadian and would love for more chinese players to be in NBA. However would hate if suddenly chinese players were more likely to be drafted higher than a superior american counterpart simply to level the playing field. It makes no sense.
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On April 05 2013 03:17 StrifeIsBack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 01:31 StrifeIsBack wrote:The problem with using NASL is that it wasn't an exclusive NA/EU tournament, ffs NASL1 had Koreans like Boxer invited. There really hasn't been a major NA tournament that has been exclusive to NA ever. I think it's something that we as foreigners need to give the motivation players need. Koreans still have GSL, MLG, and all of the other shit they can dominate but frankly it's getting tiring, and is more stagnant than the SC game itself. More NA tournaments means more opportunity for foreigners to give a shit about playing, and being able to win something. Many good points have been brought up about gaming as a professional industry, and that the money really isn't there compared to over in Seoul, and South Korea in general. We don't have that sort of support like the koreans do to make it far easier for them to sustain themselves. Sure koreans come to the NA teams for salaries that are "better" than the Korean counterparts for all you know that's entirely false, and they just want to play in NA for the big payouts like MLG, and the sort that they can ez farm . No one ever said at any point that the tournaments that are region locked should be huge multi-national level payouts...ever...just because it's region locked doesn't mean it's an MLG with a $100,000 prize pool for Top 8...jesus. Something definitely needs to be done though or else I fear Korea will once again be the only place that is, and ever will be Starcraft. Instead of arguing over talent, and racism can we discuss more important on topic matters...like this ^ ^_^ just sayin' bickering like little children is pointless. I bring up plenty of relevant, and important matters in the NA scene, and the StarCraft scene not dying as a whole. Korean v Korean is boring. Many people don't care to continously watch these MLG finals of Flash vs Life, Life vs Parting, etc, etc, etc. Us foreigners want foreigners to win (surprise?) hence we need regional leagues, and tournaments for our players to grow, and foster the ability, and willingness to create the infastructure we need over here to be able to get to such high levels of play to compete with the koreans, and not have a stagnant SC2 esports scene that will slowly die out, and less, and less viewers to watch, and give money to supporters for SC2. As it is already League has exploded in popularity over SC2, and other games are looking to do the same.
No one is argueing that we need leagues in NA/EU. People are argueing about Korean participation should be allowed or not.
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On April 05 2013 03:15 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:01 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:40 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:34 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:31 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:25 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:22 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:17 Technique wrote:
It's simple, people need to stop laddering and stop streaming.
And actually get together and practice properly... don't need a ''practice house'' for this... just a few like minded top players. Professional coaching is a critical part of practice and that is one area where NA and EU simply lacks professionals who can fill that role. Everyone does better with a coach in all aspects of competition and the Olympics has proven this over and over. Management of your practice schedule and objective review of your performance is key to success in any competitive field and it is a key area that NA and EU teams need to double down on. Players can coach/help each other... it's the most effective thing in such a ''new'' sport/game since there won't be a guy who ''done'' and ''seen'' it all like some old boxing coach or w/e. Also if this is all you do... who needs a schedule? Just keep massing those practice games together... If it were that easy, people would just do it. That is not the type of system that the Kespa teams have and they are doing the best right now. Kespa teams have coaches that schedule, review games and manage the players, the amount they practice and what they practice. There is a reason Coach Park has the most winning record of all the Kespa coaches and his teams do the best. They don't just mass practice, they practice better than other teams because he manages how they practice. Pretty sure people have done exactly what i said and became top players... Thing is however... Korea simply has MUCH more serious rts players... that's all there is to it. Flash and Life did not do that. Neither did Parting. They all had coaches, teams and groups around them managing them, helping them practice. These players did not become amazing just by grinding out games together. Its not about man hours and dedication, its about infrastructure. A coach can't do anything a group of dedicated players can't do for there selfs... Problem is players are streaming and laddering instead, which really is a time waste... Artosis and every professional in the industry disagrees with you and the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor that players do better with coaches. A group of passionate, dedicated players will not do as well as the same group with a professional coach. Coach Park is the best example, who lead every team he coached to a winning record and the play offs in Proleague. You also don't understand why NA teams stream, even on TL, who has korean players that stream. They don't do it for the money from streaming, but to provide numbers to their sponsors, who support the teams ability to travel to different events.
Ok tell me one thing that coach can do that a dedicated player can't do on his own?
It's all about self discipline.
Those coaches got nothing to teach... this ain't some old sport like boxing/football etc...
Also you think i don't understand they stream for money because i say it's a time waste? I was speaking from a point of view were players try to catch up to the Korean skill level... streaming and long ladder sessions can't be part of that.
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On April 05 2013 03:19 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:15 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 03:01 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:40 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:34 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:31 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:25 Technique wrote:On April 05 2013 02:22 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 02:17 Technique wrote:
It's simple, people need to stop laddering and stop streaming.
And actually get together and practice properly... don't need a ''practice house'' for this... just a few like minded top players. Professional coaching is a critical part of practice and that is one area where NA and EU simply lacks professionals who can fill that role. Everyone does better with a coach in all aspects of competition and the Olympics has proven this over and over. Management of your practice schedule and objective review of your performance is key to success in any competitive field and it is a key area that NA and EU teams need to double down on. Players can coach/help each other... it's the most effective thing in such a ''new'' sport/game since there won't be a guy who ''done'' and ''seen'' it all like some old boxing coach or w/e. Also if this is all you do... who needs a schedule? Just keep massing those practice games together... If it were that easy, people would just do it. That is not the type of system that the Kespa teams have and they are doing the best right now. Kespa teams have coaches that schedule, review games and manage the players, the amount they practice and what they practice. There is a reason Coach Park has the most winning record of all the Kespa coaches and his teams do the best. They don't just mass practice, they practice better than other teams because he manages how they practice. Pretty sure people have done exactly what i said and became top players... Thing is however... Korea simply has MUCH more serious rts players... that's all there is to it. Flash and Life did not do that. Neither did Parting. They all had coaches, teams and groups around them managing them, helping them practice. These players did not become amazing just by grinding out games together. Its not about man hours and dedication, its about infrastructure. A coach can't do anything a group of dedicated players can't do for there selfs... Problem is players are streaming and laddering instead, which really is a time waste... Artosis and every professional in the industry disagrees with you and the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor that players do better with coaches. A group of passionate, dedicated players will not do as well as the same group with a professional coach. Coach Park is the best example, who lead every team he coached to a winning record and the play offs in Proleague. You also don't understand why NA teams stream, even on TL, who has korean players that stream. They don't do it for the money from streaming, but to provide numbers to their sponsors, who support the teams ability to travel to different events. Ok tell me one thing that coach can do that a dedicated player can't do on his own? It's all about self discipline. Those coaches got nothing to teach... this ain't some old sport like boxing/football etc... Also you think i don't understand they stream for money because i say it's a time waste? I was speaking from a point of view were players try to catch up to the Korean skill level... streaming and long ladder sessions can't be part of that.
Mindset, mentality, stress handling, scheduling, offering a neutral observation of your game. Why do professional sport athletes have coaches? Because they do have insight.
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On April 05 2013 03:18 Type|NarutO wrote:
No one is argueing that we need leagues in NA/EU. People are argueing about Korean participation should be allowed or not.
The thread is technically about why we prefer foreigners over koreans. Not either of the two things brought about in my quote or your quote. Yet in my previous post I go on to talk about why I prefer foreigners over koreans, and why koreans are bad for SC2 and esports as a whole.
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EPT
