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On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:27 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:09 Aterons_toss wrote:
If you are going to do that you might as well just make it Korea only because non will have a chance to qualify,this way you might have a few foreigners make it to ro8 or even ro4 if not than the 3 foreigners will surely have no chance.
And it won't "encourage" the growth of the scene, it will encourage the growth of Korea.
Even if you "take their money away" Europeans and Americans won't become Koreans, I could bet that for every foreign player if they had to chose between practicing for 14 hours or not making money they would get the hell out and go to college or find a job.
If you look at most of the successful foreigner in strategy game in general they are people like Grubby and Stephano, people that quite college for an year to try the game and became really good based on their tactics, that's why I would assume you see foreigners doing better at the beginning of BW, WC3 and SC2 than toward the end... because there is still shit to figure out.
I don't think 99% of the people you see playing starcraft outside of Korea have the mentality or live in the conditions where it would be enjoyable for them to literally train 10 to 14 hours a day for years and years to than ( sometimes ) come to fame and win about the same amount of money you would if you would have put all those hours into university ( do note that in most European countries going to a university is much cheaper than in America ).
Koreans can ( imo ) play that much for that long because :
a) incentive due to their crazy educational system
b) incentive because they can literally become nation wide celebrities and most of them probably see starcraft much like we see footbal here or as Americans see basketball
c)a place where they can do that type of stuff without having thousands of dollars saved up to keep themselves alive or being forced to move to another country practicing 10 to 14 hours in a well structured team house in the exact same environment as the Koreans will not produce the same skills. Let me give you an example, Idra did that korean team house thing for years, and nony still came along came out of his 5 year retirement and trained for 2 weeks at his house in USA and proceed to roflstomp idra without that korean team house environment. saying koreans are better because of their educational system, because of their culture, because of their race is so wrong, do you think their education and culture and race allow ppl like mvp, taejja and flash and many others grind through the pain that is carpal tunnel and refuse to let up? and then surgically repair the wrist and keep at it? Contributing the each individual player's achievement to their race and culture is racism. Ya even if it's a positive praise, you are taking away the glory from the person and giving it to their race, and say their culture produced it. Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea. Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism. "I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts.
Your fact based reasoning is founded on one player, Idra, with is a sample set so small it is useless. Maybe you could use Nony, but the whole clinical depression thing kinda takes the wind out of that argument. I am not sure what the point of your argument is except to yell at foreign players and demand they "work harder" to do better against Korean players.
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On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:27 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:09 Aterons_toss wrote:
If you are going to do that you might as well just make it Korea only because non will have a chance to qualify,this way you might have a few foreigners make it to ro8 or even ro4 if not than the 3 foreigners will surely have no chance.
And it won't "encourage" the growth of the scene, it will encourage the growth of Korea.
Even if you "take their money away" Europeans and Americans won't become Koreans, I could bet that for every foreign player if they had to chose between practicing for 14 hours or not making money they would get the hell out and go to college or find a job.
If you look at most of the successful foreigner in strategy game in general they are people like Grubby and Stephano, people that quite college for an year to try the game and became really good based on their tactics, that's why I would assume you see foreigners doing better at the beginning of BW, WC3 and SC2 than toward the end... because there is still shit to figure out.
I don't think 99% of the people you see playing starcraft outside of Korea have the mentality or live in the conditions where it would be enjoyable for them to literally train 10 to 14 hours a day for years and years to than ( sometimes ) come to fame and win about the same amount of money you would if you would have put all those hours into university ( do note that in most European countries going to a university is much cheaper than in America ).
Koreans can ( imo ) play that much for that long because :
a) incentive due to their crazy educational system
b) incentive because they can literally become nation wide celebrities and most of them probably see starcraft much like we see footbal here or as Americans see basketball
c)a place where they can do that type of stuff without having thousands of dollars saved up to keep themselves alive or being forced to move to another country practicing 10 to 14 hours in a well structured team house in the exact same environment as the Koreans will not produce the same skills. Let me give you an example, Idra did that korean team house thing for years, and nony still came along came out of his 5 year retirement and trained for 2 weeks at his house in USA and proceed to roflstomp idra without that korean team house environment. saying koreans are better because of their educational system, because of their culture, because of their race is so wrong, do you think their education and culture and race allow ppl like mvp, taejja and flash and many others grind through the pain that is carpal tunnel and refuse to let up? and then surgically repair the wrist and keep at it? Contributing the each individual player's achievement to their race and culture is racism. Ya even if it's a positive praise, you are taking away the glory from the person and giving it to their race, and say their culture produced it. Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea. Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism. "I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts.
Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact.
IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene.
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On April 05 2013 01:57 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 01:48 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:44 rei wrote:
Stop giving yourselves excuses for sucking, look at stephano, he's not a product of korean culture, nor practice environment and he's been taking korean moneys for the past 2 years. Now look at idra he was grinding away in korea for a good 3 years before sc2 came out, and where is he now? It is not the practice environment that produce the results, it's the player that produce the results, stop giving excuses and get better, play smarter. This mentality of "not fair their culture is better at sc2 than ours, there is nothing we can do" has no substance, it's all whining, the koreans don't start out with 7 workers every game. The koreans want to succeed in this as badly as they need to breath, keep up with that intensity instead of whining about it. Your reading skills must be abysmal or you simply ignore my posts. I'm not even a supporter of foreign players to begin with, but I want to see the best possible play which is coming from Korea, yet you really don't have to be a genius to realize that one can only push its level that far as the player base does allow. Why do you think the level of Korean players does decrease when staying outside of Korea? The level here is simply worse and at some point there's no way to improve, because there is no one giving you a challenge. If you never encounter timings or encounter timings that arrive 30 seconds late compared to a Korean pro, how are you supposed to be ready and how do you learn to defend it? If you don't get that simple logic discussing with you makes no sense. A few very talented and gifted players rising near Korean level doesn't make the general fact untrue. You need to stop responding to the "Try harder, practice more," posters. There is enough information as to why the foreign scene is behind Korea for them to know that is not a matter of practice or man hours put in. They are either trolling or just choose to believe that the foreigners are truly lazier than Koreans(which does not hold up for other professional competitions, oddly enough). The simple fact of the matter is that the Korean pro-gaming system is better than anything we have in NA or EU. They are better able to find and refine talent. NA and EU have talented players that don't even know they are talented, but there is no clear path for those players to test their metal and grow.
Nope, not amount of "try harder and practice more" would help, it's not the system that produces better players, it's the better players that produces the better system. You swap the environment for all the foreigners and korean and the foreigners will still suck. It's the talents that's lacking.
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On April 04 2013 17:45 LiLSighKoh wrote:
What fun is it if it's a top 8 Korean placing at a tournament like DreamHack? Some people want entertainment, they want the story of a foreigner beating a Korean, others want the best gameplay, which is Korean vs Korean. I'm in favor of the best games that can be played.
Except the story of a foreigner beating a Korean might not happen very often from now on.
Thank god for HotS.
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On April 05 2013 02:05 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 01:57 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 01:48 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:44 rei wrote:
Stop giving yourselves excuses for sucking, look at stephano, he's not a product of korean culture, nor practice environment and he's been taking korean moneys for the past 2 years. Now look at idra he was grinding away in korea for a good 3 years before sc2 came out, and where is he now? It is not the practice environment that produce the results, it's the player that produce the results, stop giving excuses and get better, play smarter. This mentality of "not fair their culture is better at sc2 than ours, there is nothing we can do" has no substance, it's all whining, the koreans don't start out with 7 workers every game. The koreans want to succeed in this as badly as they need to breath, keep up with that intensity instead of whining about it. Your reading skills must be abysmal or you simply ignore my posts. I'm not even a supporter of foreign players to begin with, but I want to see the best possible play which is coming from Korea, yet you really don't have to be a genius to realize that one can only push its level that far as the player base does allow. Why do you think the level of Korean players does decrease when staying outside of Korea? The level here is simply worse and at some point there's no way to improve, because there is no one giving you a challenge. If you never encounter timings or encounter timings that arrive 30 seconds late compared to a Korean pro, how are you supposed to be ready and how do you learn to defend it? If you don't get that simple logic discussing with you makes no sense. A few very talented and gifted players rising near Korean level doesn't make the general fact untrue. You need to stop responding to the "Try harder, practice more," posters. There is enough information as to why the foreign scene is behind Korea for them to know that is not a matter of practice or man hours put in. They are either trolling or just choose to believe that the foreigners are truly lazier than Koreans(which does not hold up for other professional competitions, oddly enough). The simple fact of the matter is that the Korean pro-gaming system is better than anything we have in NA or EU. They are better able to find and refine talent. NA and EU have talented players that don't even know they are talented, but there is no clear path for those players to test their metal and grow. Nope, not amount of "try harder and practice more" would help, it's not the system that produces better players, it's the better players that produces the better system. You swap the environment for all the foreigners and korean and the foreigners will still suck. It's the talents that's lacking.
So you argument is that Korean players are superior not because of their environment, but do to raw talent? What would you attribute this raw talent to, a genetic advantage or cultural advantage? Or are we assuming that culture is part of environment?
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After 2 years of watching sc2 I no longer watch games that are Korean vs Korean unless its someone i am personally drawn to like MC.
Like everything else I watch I watch to be entertained Korean vs Korean isn't entertaining for me. Very similar to football, i absolutely love the sport but a game without my home team (the patriots) simply doesn't hold my attention.
I honestly prefer the system where there are more foreigners then Koreans and hopefully only a few Koreans. That way the foreigners get a chance to beat some Koreans which creates an awesome story and if the top 4 are still only Korean then that creates its own interesting storyline because of the 20+ foreigners the Koreans killed on their way to top 4.
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guys, stop it. it isn't the 10-14 hr training. it is the chopstick culture, according to korean esports representative and i support this claim with zero certainty.
NA and EU starcraft prospects must start using chopsticks for everything.
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On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:27 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:09 Aterons_toss wrote:
If you are going to do that you might as well just make it Korea only because non will have a chance to qualify,this way you might have a few foreigners make it to ro8 or even ro4 if not than the 3 foreigners will surely have no chance.
And it won't "encourage" the growth of the scene, it will encourage the growth of Korea.
Even if you "take their money away" Europeans and Americans won't become Koreans, I could bet that for every foreign player if they had to chose between practicing for 14 hours or not making money they would get the hell out and go to college or find a job.
If you look at most of the successful foreigner in strategy game in general they are people like Grubby and Stephano, people that quite college for an year to try the game and became really good based on their tactics, that's why I would assume you see foreigners doing better at the beginning of BW, WC3 and SC2 than toward the end... because there is still shit to figure out.
I don't think 99% of the people you see playing starcraft outside of Korea have the mentality or live in the conditions where it would be enjoyable for them to literally train 10 to 14 hours a day for years and years to than ( sometimes ) come to fame and win about the same amount of money you would if you would have put all those hours into university ( do note that in most European countries going to a university is much cheaper than in America ).
Koreans can ( imo ) play that much for that long because :
a) incentive due to their crazy educational system
b) incentive because they can literally become nation wide celebrities and most of them probably see starcraft much like we see footbal here or as Americans see basketball
c)a place where they can do that type of stuff without having thousands of dollars saved up to keep themselves alive or being forced to move to another country practicing 10 to 14 hours in a well structured team house in the exact same environment as the Koreans will not produce the same skills. Let me give you an example, Idra did that korean team house thing for years, and nony still came along came out of his 5 year retirement and trained for 2 weeks at his house in USA and proceed to roflstomp idra without that korean team house environment. saying koreans are better because of their educational system, because of their culture, because of their race is so wrong, do you think their education and culture and race allow ppl like mvp, taejja and flash and many others grind through the pain that is carpal tunnel and refuse to let up? and then surgically repair the wrist and keep at it? Contributing the each individual player's achievement to their race and culture is racism. Ya even if it's a positive praise, you are taking away the glory from the person and giving it to their race, and say their culture produced it. Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea. Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism. "I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts. Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene.
Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342
and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSL
I never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better.
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On April 05 2013 02:05 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 01:57 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 01:48 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:44 rei wrote:
Stop giving yourselves excuses for sucking, look at stephano, he's not a product of korean culture, nor practice environment and he's been taking korean moneys for the past 2 years. Now look at idra he was grinding away in korea for a good 3 years before sc2 came out, and where is he now? It is not the practice environment that produce the results, it's the player that produce the results, stop giving excuses and get better, play smarter. This mentality of "not fair their culture is better at sc2 than ours, there is nothing we can do" has no substance, it's all whining, the koreans don't start out with 7 workers every game. The koreans want to succeed in this as badly as they need to breath, keep up with that intensity instead of whining about it. Your reading skills must be abysmal or you simply ignore my posts. I'm not even a supporter of foreign players to begin with, but I want to see the best possible play which is coming from Korea, yet you really don't have to be a genius to realize that one can only push its level that far as the player base does allow. Why do you think the level of Korean players does decrease when staying outside of Korea? The level here is simply worse and at some point there's no way to improve, because there is no one giving you a challenge. If you never encounter timings or encounter timings that arrive 30 seconds late compared to a Korean pro, how are you supposed to be ready and how do you learn to defend it? If you don't get that simple logic discussing with you makes no sense. A few very talented and gifted players rising near Korean level doesn't make the general fact untrue. You need to stop responding to the "Try harder, practice more," posters. There is enough information as to why the foreign scene is behind Korea for them to know that is not a matter of practice or man hours put in. They are either trolling or just choose to believe that the foreigners are truly lazier than Koreans(which does not hold up for other professional competitions, oddly enough). The simple fact of the matter is that the Korean pro-gaming system is better than anything we have in NA or EU. They are better able to find and refine talent. NA and EU have talented players that don't even know they are talented, but there is no clear path for those players to test their metal and grow. Nope, not amount of "try harder and practice more" would help, it's not the system that produces better players, it's the better players that produces the better system. You swap the environment for all the foreigners and korean and the foreigners will still suck. It's the talents that's lacking.
Do you really believe what you are writing? You really are saying that there is NO FOREIGN player that is in any way talented? Its hard work and dedication that creates good players, good environment and a schedule, a guide to new and upcoming players. No amount of talent will ever show if the talent isn't developed to begin with. Thats why sport scouts search for young upcoming players that can be refined, they see talent in them... they are not stars on their own. They get stars because of talent and guidance.
For instance, as you quoted Broodwar: I think Draco was talented, but his mindset was bad so he basically fell behind. Mondragon is a good example of being talented as well. A talented person is probably going to have an easier time learning and playing the game, but reaching perfection (or working towards it) takes hard work and dedication. Fast thinking and automatic behaviours are not simply given to you, they are something you work on.
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On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:27 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:09 Aterons_toss wrote:
If you are going to do that you might as well just make it Korea only because non will have a chance to qualify,this way you might have a few foreigners make it to ro8 or even ro4 if not than the 3 foreigners will surely have no chance.
And it won't "encourage" the growth of the scene, it will encourage the growth of Korea.
Even if you "take their money away" Europeans and Americans won't become Koreans, I could bet that for every foreign player if they had to chose between practicing for 14 hours or not making money they would get the hell out and go to college or find a job.
If you look at most of the successful foreigner in strategy game in general they are people like Grubby and Stephano, people that quite college for an year to try the game and became really good based on their tactics, that's why I would assume you see foreigners doing better at the beginning of BW, WC3 and SC2 than toward the end... because there is still shit to figure out.
I don't think 99% of the people you see playing starcraft outside of Korea have the mentality or live in the conditions where it would be enjoyable for them to literally train 10 to 14 hours a day for years and years to than ( sometimes ) come to fame and win about the same amount of money you would if you would have put all those hours into university ( do note that in most European countries going to a university is much cheaper than in America ).
Koreans can ( imo ) play that much for that long because :
a) incentive due to their crazy educational system
b) incentive because they can literally become nation wide celebrities and most of them probably see starcraft much like we see footbal here or as Americans see basketball
c)a place where they can do that type of stuff without having thousands of dollars saved up to keep themselves alive or being forced to move to another country practicing 10 to 14 hours in a well structured team house in the exact same environment as the Koreans will not produce the same skills. Let me give you an example, Idra did that korean team house thing for years, and nony still came along came out of his 5 year retirement and trained for 2 weeks at his house in USA and proceed to roflstomp idra without that korean team house environment. saying koreans are better because of their educational system, because of their culture, because of their race is so wrong, do you think their education and culture and race allow ppl like mvp, taejja and flash and many others grind through the pain that is carpal tunnel and refuse to let up? and then surgically repair the wrist and keep at it? Contributing the each individual player's achievement to their race and culture is racism. Ya even if it's a positive praise, you are taking away the glory from the person and giving it to their race, and say their culture produced it. Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea. Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism. "I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts. Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better.
So Koreans are genetically superior...?
That's nonsense. Talent is a buzzword employed by people who don't have an argument to gloss over the hard work and drive of people more motivated than themselves. Lmao at you if you think MVP used some inaccessible magic to win GSLs.
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On April 05 2013 02:08 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:05 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:57 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2013 01:48 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:44 rei wrote:
Stop giving yourselves excuses for sucking, look at stephano, he's not a product of korean culture, nor practice environment and he's been taking korean moneys for the past 2 years. Now look at idra he was grinding away in korea for a good 3 years before sc2 came out, and where is he now? It is not the practice environment that produce the results, it's the player that produce the results, stop giving excuses and get better, play smarter. This mentality of "not fair their culture is better at sc2 than ours, there is nothing we can do" has no substance, it's all whining, the koreans don't start out with 7 workers every game. The koreans want to succeed in this as badly as they need to breath, keep up with that intensity instead of whining about it. Your reading skills must be abysmal or you simply ignore my posts. I'm not even a supporter of foreign players to begin with, but I want to see the best possible play which is coming from Korea, yet you really don't have to be a genius to realize that one can only push its level that far as the player base does allow. Why do you think the level of Korean players does decrease when staying outside of Korea? The level here is simply worse and at some point there's no way to improve, because there is no one giving you a challenge. If you never encounter timings or encounter timings that arrive 30 seconds late compared to a Korean pro, how are you supposed to be ready and how do you learn to defend it? If you don't get that simple logic discussing with you makes no sense. A few very talented and gifted players rising near Korean level doesn't make the general fact untrue. You need to stop responding to the "Try harder, practice more," posters. There is enough information as to why the foreign scene is behind Korea for them to know that is not a matter of practice or man hours put in. They are either trolling or just choose to believe that the foreigners are truly lazier than Koreans(which does not hold up for other professional competitions, oddly enough). The simple fact of the matter is that the Korean pro-gaming system is better than anything we have in NA or EU. They are better able to find and refine talent. NA and EU have talented players that don't even know they are talented, but there is no clear path for those players to test their metal and grow. Nope, not amount of "try harder and practice more" would help, it's not the system that produces better players, it's the better players that produces the better system. You swap the environment for all the foreigners and korean and the foreigners will still suck. It's the talents that's lacking. So you argument is that Korean players are superior not because of their environment, but do to raw talent? What would you attribute this raw talent to, a genetic advantage or cultural advantage? Or are we assuming that culture is part of environment?
those question depend on what you mean by raw talent, your understanding of what talents is in sc2 could be vastly different from what I consider talent.
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On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:27 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:09 Aterons_toss wrote:
If you are going to do that you might as well just make it Korea only because non will have a chance to qualify,this way you might have a few foreigners make it to ro8 or even ro4 if not than the 3 foreigners will surely have no chance.
And it won't "encourage" the growth of the scene, it will encourage the growth of Korea.
Even if you "take their money away" Europeans and Americans won't become Koreans, I could bet that for every foreign player if they had to chose between practicing for 14 hours or not making money they would get the hell out and go to college or find a job.
If you look at most of the successful foreigner in strategy game in general they are people like Grubby and Stephano, people that quite college for an year to try the game and became really good based on their tactics, that's why I would assume you see foreigners doing better at the beginning of BW, WC3 and SC2 than toward the end... because there is still shit to figure out.
I don't think 99% of the people you see playing starcraft outside of Korea have the mentality or live in the conditions where it would be enjoyable for them to literally train 10 to 14 hours a day for years and years to than ( sometimes ) come to fame and win about the same amount of money you would if you would have put all those hours into university ( do note that in most European countries going to a university is much cheaper than in America ).
Koreans can ( imo ) play that much for that long because :
a) incentive due to their crazy educational system
b) incentive because they can literally become nation wide celebrities and most of them probably see starcraft much like we see footbal here or as Americans see basketball
c)a place where they can do that type of stuff without having thousands of dollars saved up to keep themselves alive or being forced to move to another country practicing 10 to 14 hours in a well structured team house in the exact same environment as the Koreans will not produce the same skills. Let me give you an example, Idra did that korean team house thing for years, and nony still came along came out of his 5 year retirement and trained for 2 weeks at his house in USA and proceed to roflstomp idra without that korean team house environment. saying koreans are better because of their educational system, because of their culture, because of their race is so wrong, do you think their education and culture and race allow ppl like mvp, taejja and flash and many others grind through the pain that is carpal tunnel and refuse to let up? and then surgically repair the wrist and keep at it? Contributing the each individual player's achievement to their race and culture is racism. Ya even if it's a positive praise, you are taking away the glory from the person and giving it to their race, and say their culture produced it. Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea. Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism. "I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts. Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better.
Your proof is two boX? He lost to F91 and NonY. F91 being one of the very best Zergs at that time also taking games off of NaDa and NonY being an execptional player as well winning close by 3-2 ... not even taking the games into account. I can still remember his cancelled cc into gg. Your arguments are not just weak, but barely there.
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On April 05 2013 02:11 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:27 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:09 Aterons_toss wrote:
If you are going to do that you might as well just make it Korea only because non will have a chance to qualify,this way you might have a few foreigners make it to ro8 or even ro4 if not than the 3 foreigners will surely have no chance.
And it won't "encourage" the growth of the scene, it will encourage the growth of Korea.
Even if you "take their money away" Europeans and Americans won't become Koreans, I could bet that for every foreign player if they had to chose between practicing for 14 hours or not making money they would get the hell out and go to college or find a job.
If you look at most of the successful foreigner in strategy game in general they are people like Grubby and Stephano, people that quite college for an year to try the game and became really good based on their tactics, that's why I would assume you see foreigners doing better at the beginning of BW, WC3 and SC2 than toward the end... because there is still shit to figure out.
I don't think 99% of the people you see playing starcraft outside of Korea have the mentality or live in the conditions where it would be enjoyable for them to literally train 10 to 14 hours a day for years and years to than ( sometimes ) come to fame and win about the same amount of money you would if you would have put all those hours into university ( do note that in most European countries going to a university is much cheaper than in America ).
Koreans can ( imo ) play that much for that long because :
a) incentive due to their crazy educational system
b) incentive because they can literally become nation wide celebrities and most of them probably see starcraft much like we see footbal here or as Americans see basketball
c)a place where they can do that type of stuff without having thousands of dollars saved up to keep themselves alive or being forced to move to another country practicing 10 to 14 hours in a well structured team house in the exact same environment as the Koreans will not produce the same skills. Let me give you an example, Idra did that korean team house thing for years, and nony still came along came out of his 5 year retirement and trained for 2 weeks at his house in USA and proceed to roflstomp idra without that korean team house environment. saying koreans are better because of their educational system, because of their culture, because of their race is so wrong, do you think their education and culture and race allow ppl like mvp, taejja and flash and many others grind through the pain that is carpal tunnel and refuse to let up? and then surgically repair the wrist and keep at it? Contributing the each individual player's achievement to their race and culture is racism. Ya even if it's a positive praise, you are taking away the glory from the person and giving it to their race, and say their culture produced it. Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea. Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism. "I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts. Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better. So Koreans are genetically superior...? That's nonsense. Talent is a buzzword employed by people who don't have an argument to gloss over the hard work and drive of people more motivated than themselves. Lmao at you if you think MVP used some inaccessible magic to win GSLs.
didn't say that, again, what you consider to be talent could be different from what I consider to be talent, tell me what you think talent is in sc2? maybe if you figure out what it is you would agree with me.
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On April 05 2013 02:13 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:11 Shiori wrote:On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:27 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:09 Aterons_toss wrote:
If you are going to do that you might as well just make it Korea only because non will have a chance to qualify,this way you might have a few foreigners make it to ro8 or even ro4 if not than the 3 foreigners will surely have no chance.
And it won't "encourage" the growth of the scene, it will encourage the growth of Korea.
Even if you "take their money away" Europeans and Americans won't become Koreans, I could bet that for every foreign player if they had to chose between practicing for 14 hours or not making money they would get the hell out and go to college or find a job.
If you look at most of the successful foreigner in strategy game in general they are people like Grubby and Stephano, people that quite college for an year to try the game and became really good based on their tactics, that's why I would assume you see foreigners doing better at the beginning of BW, WC3 and SC2 than toward the end... because there is still shit to figure out.
I don't think 99% of the people you see playing starcraft outside of Korea have the mentality or live in the conditions where it would be enjoyable for them to literally train 10 to 14 hours a day for years and years to than ( sometimes ) come to fame and win about the same amount of money you would if you would have put all those hours into university ( do note that in most European countries going to a university is much cheaper than in America ).
Koreans can ( imo ) play that much for that long because :
a) incentive due to their crazy educational system
b) incentive because they can literally become nation wide celebrities and most of them probably see starcraft much like we see footbal here or as Americans see basketball
c)a place where they can do that type of stuff without having thousands of dollars saved up to keep themselves alive or being forced to move to another country practicing 10 to 14 hours in a well structured team house in the exact same environment as the Koreans will not produce the same skills. Let me give you an example, Idra did that korean team house thing for years, and nony still came along came out of his 5 year retirement and trained for 2 weeks at his house in USA and proceed to roflstomp idra without that korean team house environment. saying koreans are better because of their educational system, because of their culture, because of their race is so wrong, do you think their education and culture and race allow ppl like mvp, taejja and flash and many others grind through the pain that is carpal tunnel and refuse to let up? and then surgically repair the wrist and keep at it? Contributing the each individual player's achievement to their race and culture is racism. Ya even if it's a positive praise, you are taking away the glory from the person and giving it to their race, and say their culture produced it. Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea. Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism. "I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts. Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better. So Koreans are genetically superior...? That's nonsense. Talent is a buzzword employed by people who don't have an argument to gloss over the hard work and drive of people more motivated than themselves. Lmao at you if you think MVP used some inaccessible magic to win GSLs. didn't say that, again, what you consider to be talent could be different from what I consider to be talent, tell me what you think talent is in sc2? maybe if you figure out what it is you would agree with me.
I don't really believe much in talent in general. I think tenacity and drive trump talent in 99% of cases. There are many examples of "geniuses" saying that they believe their abilities are accessible to anyone provided they simply try to look at problems in different ways. My basic position is that nobody is using magic here. We're all equipped with roughly similar human brains. Some of them might be marginally predisposed toward certain tasks, but the techniques used are accessible to everyone. If you transplant MVP's game knowledge into my brain, I'd be similarly skilled at Sc2. So talent is probably just a predisposition that can be overcome by someone who lacks it by a decent amount of work and retraining.
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It's simple, people need to stop laddering and stop streaming.
And actually get together and practice properly... don't need a ''practice house'' for this... just a few like minded top players.
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On April 05 2013 02:13 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:11 Shiori wrote:On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:27 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:09 Aterons_toss wrote:
If you are going to do that you might as well just make it Korea only because non will have a chance to qualify,this way you might have a few foreigners make it to ro8 or even ro4 if not than the 3 foreigners will surely have no chance.
And it won't "encourage" the growth of the scene, it will encourage the growth of Korea.
Even if you "take their money away" Europeans and Americans won't become Koreans, I could bet that for every foreign player if they had to chose between practicing for 14 hours or not making money they would get the hell out and go to college or find a job.
If you look at most of the successful foreigner in strategy game in general they are people like Grubby and Stephano, people that quite college for an year to try the game and became really good based on their tactics, that's why I would assume you see foreigners doing better at the beginning of BW, WC3 and SC2 than toward the end... because there is still shit to figure out.
I don't think 99% of the people you see playing starcraft outside of Korea have the mentality or live in the conditions where it would be enjoyable for them to literally train 10 to 14 hours a day for years and years to than ( sometimes ) come to fame and win about the same amount of money you would if you would have put all those hours into university ( do note that in most European countries going to a university is much cheaper than in America ).
Koreans can ( imo ) play that much for that long because :
a) incentive due to their crazy educational system
b) incentive because they can literally become nation wide celebrities and most of them probably see starcraft much like we see footbal here or as Americans see basketball
c)a place where they can do that type of stuff without having thousands of dollars saved up to keep themselves alive or being forced to move to another country practicing 10 to 14 hours in a well structured team house in the exact same environment as the Koreans will not produce the same skills. Let me give you an example, Idra did that korean team house thing for years, and nony still came along came out of his 5 year retirement and trained for 2 weeks at his house in USA and proceed to roflstomp idra without that korean team house environment. saying koreans are better because of their educational system, because of their culture, because of their race is so wrong, do you think their education and culture and race allow ppl like mvp, taejja and flash and many others grind through the pain that is carpal tunnel and refuse to let up? and then surgically repair the wrist and keep at it? Contributing the each individual player's achievement to their race and culture is racism. Ya even if it's a positive praise, you are taking away the glory from the person and giving it to their race, and say their culture produced it. Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea. Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism. "I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts. Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better. So Koreans are genetically superior...? That's nonsense. Talent is a buzzword employed by people who don't have an argument to gloss over the hard work and drive of people more motivated than themselves. Lmao at you if you think MVP used some inaccessible magic to win GSLs. didn't say that, again, what you consider to be talent could be different from what I consider to be talent, tell me what you think talent is in sc2? maybe if you figure out what it is you would agree with me.
You heavily implied it. All of the arguments based around racism and genetic advantage center around environment vs nature. By saying that Korean players will beat all foreign players if both are placed in the same environment, you are making the classic argument that all racist have made for years. If you don't want to be accused of being racist, do not make arguments in this fashion.
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On April 05 2013 02:12 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:27 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:09 Aterons_toss wrote:
If you are going to do that you might as well just make it Korea only because non will have a chance to qualify,this way you might have a few foreigners make it to ro8 or even ro4 if not than the 3 foreigners will surely have no chance.
And it won't "encourage" the growth of the scene, it will encourage the growth of Korea.
Even if you "take their money away" Europeans and Americans won't become Koreans, I could bet that for every foreign player if they had to chose between practicing for 14 hours or not making money they would get the hell out and go to college or find a job.
If you look at most of the successful foreigner in strategy game in general they are people like Grubby and Stephano, people that quite college for an year to try the game and became really good based on their tactics, that's why I would assume you see foreigners doing better at the beginning of BW, WC3 and SC2 than toward the end... because there is still shit to figure out.
I don't think 99% of the people you see playing starcraft outside of Korea have the mentality or live in the conditions where it would be enjoyable for them to literally train 10 to 14 hours a day for years and years to than ( sometimes ) come to fame and win about the same amount of money you would if you would have put all those hours into university ( do note that in most European countries going to a university is much cheaper than in America ).
Koreans can ( imo ) play that much for that long because :
a) incentive due to their crazy educational system
b) incentive because they can literally become nation wide celebrities and most of them probably see starcraft much like we see footbal here or as Americans see basketball
c)a place where they can do that type of stuff without having thousands of dollars saved up to keep themselves alive or being forced to move to another country practicing 10 to 14 hours in a well structured team house in the exact same environment as the Koreans will not produce the same skills. Let me give you an example, Idra did that korean team house thing for years, and nony still came along came out of his 5 year retirement and trained for 2 weeks at his house in USA and proceed to roflstomp idra without that korean team house environment. saying koreans are better because of their educational system, because of their culture, because of their race is so wrong, do you think their education and culture and race allow ppl like mvp, taejja and flash and many others grind through the pain that is carpal tunnel and refuse to let up? and then surgically repair the wrist and keep at it? Contributing the each individual player's achievement to their race and culture is racism. Ya even if it's a positive praise, you are taking away the glory from the person and giving it to their race, and say their culture produced it. Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea. Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism. "I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts. Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better. Your proof is two boX? He lost to F91 and NonY. F91 being one of the very best Zergs at that time also taking games off of NaDa and NonY being an execptional player as well winning close by 3-2 ... not even taking the games into account. I can still remember his cancelled cc into gg. Your arguments are not just weak, but barely there.
ya, after ad hominem, you decide to use strawman fallacy, labeling my evidence as weak does not take away the fact these evidence supports my argument, korean practice environment, and hard working that was idra did not respect the game, did not respect his opponent, did not have the skill to beat 2 people who did not practice nearly as hard as he did nor did those 2 person grind it out in korea as he did.
tell me what do you think talent is in the game of sc2?
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On April 05 2013 02:17 Technique wrote:
It's simple, people need to stop laddering and stop streaming.
And actually get together and practice properly... don't need a ''practice house'' for this... just a few like minded top players.
Professional coaching is a critical part of practice and that is one area where NA and EU simply lacks professionals who can fill that role. Everyone does better with a coach in all aspects of competition and the Olympics has proven this over and over. Management of your practice schedule and objective review of your performance is key to success in any competitive field and it is a key area that NA and EU teams need to double down on.
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On April 05 2013 02:20 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:12 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 02:09 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 02:03 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:58 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:35 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 05 2013 01:27 rei wrote:On April 05 2013 01:09 Aterons_toss wrote:
If you are going to do that you might as well just make it Korea only because non will have a chance to qualify,this way you might have a few foreigners make it to ro8 or even ro4 if not than the 3 foreigners will surely have no chance.
And it won't "encourage" the growth of the scene, it will encourage the growth of Korea.
Even if you "take their money away" Europeans and Americans won't become Koreans, I could bet that for every foreign player if they had to chose between practicing for 14 hours or not making money they would get the hell out and go to college or find a job.
If you look at most of the successful foreigner in strategy game in general they are people like Grubby and Stephano, people that quite college for an year to try the game and became really good based on their tactics, that's why I would assume you see foreigners doing better at the beginning of BW, WC3 and SC2 than toward the end... because there is still shit to figure out.
I don't think 99% of the people you see playing starcraft outside of Korea have the mentality or live in the conditions where it would be enjoyable for them to literally train 10 to 14 hours a day for years and years to than ( sometimes ) come to fame and win about the same amount of money you would if you would have put all those hours into university ( do note that in most European countries going to a university is much cheaper than in America ).
Koreans can ( imo ) play that much for that long because :
a) incentive due to their crazy educational system
b) incentive because they can literally become nation wide celebrities and most of them probably see starcraft much like we see footbal here or as Americans see basketball
c)a place where they can do that type of stuff without having thousands of dollars saved up to keep themselves alive or being forced to move to another country practicing 10 to 14 hours in a well structured team house in the exact same environment as the Koreans will not produce the same skills. Let me give you an example, Idra did that korean team house thing for years, and nony still came along came out of his 5 year retirement and trained for 2 weeks at his house in USA and proceed to roflstomp idra without that korean team house environment. saying koreans are better because of their educational system, because of their culture, because of their race is so wrong, do you think their education and culture and race allow ppl like mvp, taejja and flash and many others grind through the pain that is carpal tunnel and refuse to let up? and then surgically repair the wrist and keep at it? Contributing the each individual player's achievement to their race and culture is racism. Ya even if it's a positive praise, you are taking away the glory from the person and giving it to their race, and say their culture produced it. Do you read your own posts? I agree that a foreign player will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours / day while not being in Korea, but the reason is not that he's foreign or they are Korean. Its just that the level in Korea is a lot higher and you have that much room to improve. When you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits, you are not even in the midfield of Korea. Thats how it looks like and thats why Korea "produces" better players. Racism .. what the fuck are you talking about? Read your last 3 posts... that did sound like racism. "I agree that a foreigner will not achieve the same skill due to playing 10-14 hours/day while not being in korea" Idra was in CJ for 2 years before SC2 came out, your argument is invalid. "when you are the best in NA and cannot raise your level, because you have no people who challenge you and push you to your limits," you are arguing with assumptions and generalization, i am arguing with facts. Its not assumption and generalization if you see proof everyday. Even the best players of NA/EU cannot compete with those of Korea. That is a fact and the reason behind it isn't lack of practice in all cases, do you want to disagree, your choice, doesn't make your statement a fact. IdrA was in CJ 2 years before Starcraft 2 came out and he was GOOD in Broodwar - where is your argument here, because I fail to see it. He was superior to a lot of players especially in the foreign scene. Idra sucked in bw after 2 years in CJ, here is the proof http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88342and more proof, http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/players/678_NonY/games/during/497_PokerStrategy.comTSLI never say it's the lack of practice, I am saying it's lack of talent, no amount of practice can make foreigners better. Your proof is two boX? He lost to F91 and NonY. F91 being one of the very best Zergs at that time also taking games off of NaDa and NonY being an execptional player as well winning close by 3-2 ... not even taking the games into account. I can still remember his cancelled cc into gg. Your arguments are not just weak, but barely there. ya, after ad hominem, you decide to use strawman fallacy, labeling my evidence as weak does not take away the fact these evidence supports my argument, korean practice environment, and hard working that was idra did not respect the game, did not respect his opponent, did not have the skill to beat 2 people who did not practice nearly as hard as he did nor did those 2 person grind it out in korea as he did. tell me what do you think talent is in the game of sc2?
Were you involved into Starcraft Broodwar? Because it sure does seem like you were not. NonY was an expectional player who did practice on iccup against mostly Koreans and tried to smooth out his builds as much as possible. You could always tell by the build order and placement who was playing.
F91 was one of the chinese pros that were very similar to the Korean scene actually. F91, Legend ... if I remember correctly they even went to Korea for a short period of time and they sure did practice just as much as the Koreans. Also NonY was actually one of the very few persons IdrA did respect, resulting in him gg'ing out of every game, but it seems like you will not back off your point even if proven wrong.
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EPT
