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Call to Action: Balance Testing (2012/11/20) - Page 5

Forum Index > SC2 General
1876 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 92 93 94 Next
Netsky
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia1155 Posts
November 21 2012 03:01 GMT
#81
I like that Blizzard is at least acknowledging that Infestors and late-game ZvX is a problem, but this doesn't really address much in ZvT at least.

The change for the Raven is no where near enough. It is still worthless. HSM should not require research, have it's cost reduced to 75 energy, and range increased to 9 to bring it in line with Fungal Growth and Psionic storm as a damage dealing spell for a Terran spell caster.
Darpa
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada4413 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-21 03:03:26
November 21 2012 03:02 GMT
#82
I really think they just need to increase the amount of energy need to spawn and Infested Terran. The mass infestor style where they spawn 200 infested terran that will wipe just about any army is in my opinion the bigger issue.

and where do they get there tournament stats from... Every tournament I've watched recently has been almost exclusively ZvP once it hits the deep stages of the tournament.
"losers always whine about their best, Winners go home and fuck the prom queen"
KawaiiRice
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States2914 Posts
November 21 2012 03:02 GMT
#83
do they really think this HSM change does anything hahahahahaha
@KawaiiRiceLighT
c0sm0naut
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1229 Posts
November 21 2012 03:02 GMT
#84
On November 21 2012 11:59 Protosnake wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2012 11:54 Lunareste wrote:
Maybe now Zergs won't be taking a 4 minute 3rd base, make minimal units until they see a move out, and still be able to hold sentry/immortal all in. It's too greedy, too easy for zerg to get to 70 drones and move into hive tech by the 12 minute mark.

Hopefully the fear of the strategy will encourage zerg slow down their tech to infestor/brood lord and make the games more diverse by having them invest more into army units in the early to mid game transition.


You think FFE isnt greedy ?
The fast 3 base ZvP is a simple reaction to FFE, if you dont take that 3rd base you're all-in. That how it always worked, before Stephano created that build, every ZvP was a roach-muta all-in that led to an (uneeded and irrelevant) phoenix buff.
Even more since 2base Infestor cant hold Psionic based units push anymore (Not that it would be smart to all-in a zerg on 2 base)



you think FFE IS greedy? lol
JJH777
Profile Joined January 2011
United States4420 Posts
November 21 2012 03:04 GMT
#85
On November 21 2012 11:58 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2012 11:55 JJH777 wrote:
On November 21 2012 11:47 SarcasmMonster wrote:
On November 21 2012 11:43 JJH777 wrote:
Zerg becomes incapable of holding a well controlled Protoss 3-base all-in if this change goes through. They really needed to do changes that ONLY affected the late game. All this is going to do is make killing before brood/infestor easier so we still won't see if it's actually possible for P to beat the composition.

The psionic change also barely effects TvZ which anyone who isn't extremely biased would admit is the bigger problem. Protoss has done fine overall in tournament play since the queen/ovie patch. Terran has done horribly. Literally MVP and Taeja are the only 2 terrans with great results since the queen patch.


I'd add ForGG to that list since he's literally more than 95% of his earnings were won post Queen patch.


I'm not comparing it to past success. I'm comparing it to the other races. If ForGG was a Protoss he wouldn't even be top 10 results wise. The fact that he is probably the number 3 Terran (going purely by results) since the queen patch just shows how pathetic Terran has done since then.


I think he would. He's earned $27,000 in the last 6 months (so $54,000 per year if he keeps it up). If you only count his earnings for the last 6 months, that's enough to put him #19 in the top of all time.


Seed, Parting, Rain, Creator, Mana, MC, Squirtle, First, Alicia and YongHwa would all easily be above him. I'm not talking pure prize money but also prestige from the results they did get. Getting 2nd at an MLG is more impressive than at dreamhack but I don't think it pays more. Though I'd be surprised if any of those 9 had less prize money since the queen patch. Idk how much WCG Korea paid though and MLG in general has low prize pools.
HeeroFX
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States2704 Posts
November 21 2012 03:05 GMT
#86
i don't think that change is too game changing in TvZ with the infestors. But I think you will see more Raven useage as a direct counter to Broodlords/corruptors/infestor
Protosnake
Profile Joined September 2011
France295 Posts
November 21 2012 03:06 GMT
#87
On November 21 2012 12:02 c0sm0naut wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2012 11:59 Protosnake wrote:
On November 21 2012 11:54 Lunareste wrote:
Maybe now Zergs won't be taking a 4 minute 3rd base, make minimal units until they see a move out, and still be able to hold sentry/immortal all in. It's too greedy, too easy for zerg to get to 70 drones and move into hive tech by the 12 minute mark.

Hopefully the fear of the strategy will encourage zerg slow down their tech to infestor/brood lord and make the games more diverse by having them invest more into army units in the early to mid game transition.


You think FFE isnt greedy ?
The fast 3 base ZvP is a simple reaction to FFE, if you dont take that 3rd base you're all-in. That how it always worked, before Stephano created that build, every ZvP was a roach-muta all-in that led to an (uneeded and irrelevant) phoenix buff.
Even more since 2base Infestor cant hold Psionic based units push anymore (Not that it would be smart to all-in a zerg on 2 base)



you think FFE IS greedy? lol


All depend on your notion of "Greedy". But if you dont think FFE is greedy (It isnt) you shouldnt think a 4-5min reactionary 3rd ZvP is greedy
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
November 21 2012 03:07 GMT
#88
On November 21 2012 12:05 HeeroFX wrote:
i don't think that change is too game changing in TvZ with the infestors. But I think you will see more Raven useage as a direct counter to Broodlords/corruptors/infestor

No. It means Raven play will cost 150/150 less than before.
geokilla
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada8255 Posts
November 21 2012 03:07 GMT
#89
Weak changes. Raven change won't change anything. But as they said, it's only the start so hopefully we see better changes in the near future.
Inquisitor1323
Profile Joined March 2012
370 Posts
November 21 2012 03:08 GMT
#90
Fuck yeah ghosts viable.
SarcasmMonster
Profile Joined October 2011
3136 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-21 03:12:13
November 21 2012 03:09 GMT
#91
On November 21 2012 12:04 JJH777 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2012 11:58 SarcasmMonster wrote:
On November 21 2012 11:55 JJH777 wrote:
On November 21 2012 11:47 SarcasmMonster wrote:
On November 21 2012 11:43 JJH777 wrote:
Zerg becomes incapable of holding a well controlled Protoss 3-base all-in if this change goes through. They really needed to do changes that ONLY affected the late game. All this is going to do is make killing before brood/infestor easier so we still won't see if it's actually possible for P to beat the composition.

The psionic change also barely effects TvZ which anyone who isn't extremely biased would admit is the bigger problem. Protoss has done fine overall in tournament play since the queen/ovie patch. Terran has done horribly. Literally MVP and Taeja are the only 2 terrans with great results since the queen patch.


I'd add ForGG to that list since he's literally more than 95% of his earnings were won post Queen patch.


I'm not comparing it to past success. I'm comparing it to the other races. If ForGG was a Protoss he wouldn't even be top 10 results wise. The fact that he is probably the number 3 Terran (going purely by results) since the queen patch just shows how pathetic Terran has done since then.


I think he would. He's earned $27,000 in the last 6 months (so $54,000 per year if he keeps it up). If you only count his earnings for the last 6 months, that's enough to put him #19 in the top of all time.


Seed, Parting, Rain, Creator, Mana, MC, Squirtle, First, Alicia and YongHwa would all easily be above him. I'm not talking pure prize money but also prestige from the results they did get. Getting 2nd at an MLG is more impressive than at dreamhack but I don't think it pays more. Though I'd be surprised if any of those 9 had less prize money since the queen patch. Idk how much WCG Korea paid though and MLG in general has low prize pools.


IIf you combine both of First's and Yongwha's all time earnings, it's still only $300 more than what ForGG earned in the last 6 months.

I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion, is not in a happy place right now. My only objection is you making up numbers.
MMA: The true King of Wings
Elwar
Profile Joined August 2010
953 Posts
November 21 2012 03:10 GMT
#92
I reckon the SM change is pretty significant. SM has been getting a ton more use even without this change. Mass raven is a 'thing' now in TvZ when it never was before. It'll make raven after banshee a huge threat in all matchups (only until templar in TvP). Honestly I think its a great change, it will lead to more viable ravens and I think it'll eventually lead to a significant SM damage nerf.
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
November 21 2012 03:12 GMT
#93
On November 21 2012 12:10 Elwar wrote:
I reckon the SM change is pretty significant. SM has been getting a ton more use even without this change. Mass raven is a 'thing' now in TvZ when it never was before. It'll make raven after banshee a huge threat in all matchups (only until templar in TvP). Honestly I think its a great change, it will lead to more viable ravens and I think it'll eventually lead to a significant SM damage nerf.

What? I don't understand how you can think that having a single Raven with a single Missile ready is a “huge threat”.
IcedteaDota
Profile Joined January 2011
223 Posts
November 21 2012 03:12 GMT
#94
does that mean they do not detect DTS anymore... pretty huge change imo
Jermstuddog
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2231 Posts
November 21 2012 03:13 GMT
#95
Hate it.

Hate it hate it hate it hate it hate it hate it hate it.

Everything that has been wrong with Blizzards balance philosophy rolled up into one megapatch of retardation.

My interest in playing this broken and boring game has been waning for the past month or so, I think this is the nail in the coffin.

Really makes me sad because SC2 could and should be such a great game, but Blizz seems to have no fucking clue what to do with their game.
As it turns out, marines don't actually cost any money -Jinro
Lunareste
Profile Joined July 2011
United States3596 Posts
November 21 2012 03:15 GMT
#96
On November 21 2012 11:59 Protosnake wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2012 11:54 Lunareste wrote:
Maybe now Zergs won't be taking a 4 minute 3rd base, make minimal units until they see a move out, and still be able to hold sentry/immortal all in. It's too greedy, too easy for zerg to get to 70 drones and move into hive tech by the 12 minute mark.

Hopefully the fear of the strategy will encourage zerg slow down their tech to infestor/brood lord and make the games more diverse by having them invest more into army units in the early to mid game transition.


You think FFE isnt greedy ?
The fast 3 base ZvP is a simple reaction to FFE, if you dont take that 3rd base you're all-in. That how it always worked, before Stephano created that build, every ZvP was a roach-muta all-in that led to an (uneeded and irrelevant) phoenix buff.
Even more since 2base Infestor cant hold Psionic based units push anymore (Not that it would be smart to all-in a zerg on 2 base)


I think it's a lot less greedy than what zerg is doing in the current meta game, yeah. 3rd base, 70 drones, hope you have infestors/fungals out at the 9 minute mark.

I think the best thing that could happen with this change is to force zerg to create additional spine crawlers or army units prior to the 8 minute mark. What I would like to see in this matchup, to make it less boring from the get go and less of a nr20 macro fest on the zerg's part, is for the zerg to be forced to invest money into army and defensive units. That also gives Protoss the additional benefit of having delayed Hive tech, which will then possibly lead to more strategy if they figure out that a zerg isn't making all drones; instead, they're able to more safely take a 3rd and transition in to the late game better.

For the record, and I could be 100% wrong, I think the 2 base sentry/immortal all in is still beatable by zerg if they force forcefields out mid map, if they make static defenses at their bases, if they make more units in the early game or a combination of the three. I don't know what anyone else thinks, but I'm sick and tired of seeing zergs do the exact same thing in the 2 non mirror matchups for the last 6 months. I think that making zergs be more cautious and delaying infestor/brood lord is going to be healthy for the matchup, and make it more exciting when you don't know exactly what's going to happen every game.

KT FlaSh FOREVER
SynergySC2
Profile Joined February 2012
United States27 Posts
November 21 2012 03:17 GMT
#97
On November 21 2012 11:51 .kv wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2012 11:49 SynergySC2 wrote:
are ghost psionic units?


Show nested quote +
Fungal Growth no longer affects Psionic units. (Sentry, High / Dark Templar, Archon, Warp Prism, Mothership, Ghost, Queen, Infestor)


Read and your question may be answered


haha didnt catch that thanks
c0sm0naut
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1229 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-21 03:21:22
November 21 2012 03:18 GMT
#98
On November 21 2012 12:06 Protosnake wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2012 12:02 c0sm0naut wrote:
On November 21 2012 11:59 Protosnake wrote:
On November 21 2012 11:54 Lunareste wrote:
Maybe now Zergs won't be taking a 4 minute 3rd base, make minimal units until they see a move out, and still be able to hold sentry/immortal all in. It's too greedy, too easy for zerg to get to 70 drones and move into hive tech by the 12 minute mark.

Hopefully the fear of the strategy will encourage zerg slow down their tech to infestor/brood lord and make the games more diverse by having them invest more into army units in the early to mid game transition.


You think FFE isnt greedy ?
The fast 3 base ZvP is a simple reaction to FFE, if you dont take that 3rd base you're all-in. That how it always worked, before Stephano created that build, every ZvP was a roach-muta all-in that led to an (uneeded and irrelevant) phoenix buff.
Even more since 2base Infestor cant hold Psionic based units push anymore (Not that it would be smart to all-in a zerg on 2 base)



you think FFE IS greedy? lol


All depend on your notion of "Greedy". But if you dont think FFE is greedy (It isnt) you shouldnt think a 4-5min reactionary 3rd ZvP is greedy


its not
key word: reactionary
c0sm0naut
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1229 Posts
November 21 2012 03:21 GMT
#99
On November 21 2012 12:12 TheDwf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2012 12:10 Elwar wrote:
I reckon the SM change is pretty significant. SM has been getting a ton more use even without this change. Mass raven is a 'thing' now in TvZ when it never was before. It'll make raven after banshee a huge threat in all matchups (only until templar in TvP). Honestly I think its a great change, it will lead to more viable ravens and I think it'll eventually lead to a significant SM damage nerf.

What? I don't understand how you can think that having a single Raven with a single Missile ready is a “huge threat”.


not to mention you can still dodge this ability with some units, fungal and feedback both trump it as well

if HSM is connecting, terran's opponent is not playing correctly imho
xAdra
Profile Joined July 2012
Singapore1858 Posts
November 21 2012 03:22 GMT
#100
For someone who stated that TvZ is a larger problem because fewer Terrans win at the highest level:

PvZ winrates may be higher, sure, but practically none of those wins are from legitimate, epic late game fights. The protosses are winning on 2-base and 3-base allins. I have no idea how that's even fun. When the Infestor-Broodlord composition kicks into full gear with 30+ infestors, protoss is EVEN MORE helpless than terran is, thanks to the coin-flippy archon toilet being the only viable solution.

I'm not saying it's much easier for terran; you have to split vikings, use ravens (also coin flippy) and have a perfect mix of ground units to combat infestor-bl, all while needing to retain a good tank count to stand a fighting chance against the ultralisk tech switch.

My point is, infestor-bl is just insanely difficult and disproportionately hard for both P and T to handle, basically needing to rely on completely perfect control, praying hard to not get fungalled and hoping for the coinflippy vortex and HSM respectively to hit.

Hoping for the nerfs to do their job, if as Avilo correctly pointed out, they don't, I'll continue wanting for more. I liked the fungal slow/fungal projectile/infested terran to 50 energy nerfs much better. And yes, I do think Infestors should be nerfed to the ground. I hate that unit so much.
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